Gorgeous Goatskin Greek New Testaments, 3 Mormons, Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:37

And greetings welcome to the dividing line somebody's trying to spoof me on a bad call right to start the program

00:43

How's that? Welcome to the dividing line. It is a Tuesday and we're gonna start off with a little bit of a

00:51

Little bit of geekiness, I guess if you if you don't mind When I was in Bible College, I was poor as a church mouse and yet despite that Especially when

01:05

I started taking Greek I Really really wanted to have a nice Greek text and I've told the story before Back, then someone was involved the ministry that was in the sort of the printing area and They had a friend who was one of Jehovah's Witnesses But he did

01:30

Leather covers for books and stuff what we would call Bible rebinding today, but this was

01:39

Middle 19 Early 1980s and so it was a while back and I don't know how

01:49

I paid for it. But this is the the first Greek New Testament that I had made and It says along the the spine

02:02

Gia said I am the Alpha and Omega. This is a UBS third not corrected UBS third

02:09

And I still have it. It still has I loved those see that that's that sticker in there

02:15

You know, it does the rainbow thing. I still love those that rainbow stuff They had that in the in the in the

02:22

Christian bookstores back then, you know It's a little Jesus fish and stuff and and I and I as a kid

02:27

You know the little the little you'd get these little Bible stickers for getting doing your memorization or whatever it is

02:34

You did, you know, I still I think I bet you I could go in the other room and find a packet of these still in Over there.

02:44

So yeah, anyway, so no no marker anything, you know, this was just you know, just Basic, but it's what

02:52

I started with then You Know I had a bunch of others man.

02:57

I had some stolen once my my Truck was stolen out of the Phoenix College parking lot once and they got both a

03:05

Hebrew text and a Greek text You know, they're moldering somewhere in the Phoenix City dump somewhere, but eventually at some point in seminary

03:14

I had this beast made now you can get the Biblia Sacra now from UBS And So this was before then and this was our first attempt to do page edging it was

03:33

Anyway Well, okay, but gotta keep one thing in mind They were two different sized texts because this was the small

03:41

Bibli Hebraic astute cartesian. I think this isn't the No, this is still UBS So as a

03:47

UBS Text put together with was which which UBS text is this?

03:53

This was up to the third edition corrected now who are getting up and up the years now. We're Edition five now

04:01

So anyways, this had this had some markers in it and you know a

04:06

Biblia Hebraic and for a long time there were people looked with some level of Jealousy Because you know, it's really nicely made.

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It's got both the Greek and the Hebrew yeah, we we lost some of the notes alongside the Hebrew text to get it down to the size of the of the

04:27

Greek text, but Hey, it's it's all the text is still there. That's the important part. And so if you've seen this sitting back here

04:40

Anyway, so getting Especially original language texts.

04:46

I've got some real nice Bibles I've got a Allen rebind

04:51

New American Standard, you know, that's top -of -the -line type stuff and Let's just be honest the vast majority of the time

05:03

I'm going to be you know, I just I just did the past two Sundays at PRBC and I I preach have an iPad and it's an iPad

05:13

Pro. It's twelve and a half inches size huge screen massive fonts

05:19

I can back away from the pulpit and and see the Greek from three feet away and you know it's it's really hard to get a

05:31

Printed text that can even get close to that as far as actual visibility Is is concerned so a couple of I don't know a couple weeks ago month ago month and a half ago two months ago

05:45

I don't know when it was All of this you can blame on Kofi Because I follow

05:51

Kofi on Facebook and Kofi puts posts this picture of this this beautiful Bible now

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There used to be I used to have contact with this guy at a at a

06:08

Bible binding place down somewhere in down south and I don't know when it was it was it was

06:17

Just over two years ago, maybe they they bound a Quran for me and Just did a beautiful job.

06:27

And so I thought you know, I'd really like to have the new Nessie Allen 28th and I'd arranged they did

06:33

I think they had actually ordered one in and then I lost all contact every Email phone call everything just gone.

06:41

I have no earthy idea what happened I mean, I normally stick with somebody once I find somebody enormous sick, but lost all contact

06:48

They said poof I'd call I'd leave messages. I did emails gone And so it's like oh, well, okay never get to do that.

06:58

So I saw Kofi's post and I I saw this, you know who had who had done it post tenebrous

07:09

Lux Bible rebinding and I'm like, wow, that's that's really nice.

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And so I clicked on it and went over and and Like the page and and then sent a message and at the time all

07:22

I was really thinking about was And I still Might want to do this

07:30

Was I was ordering a Triple the large print triple the

07:36

Book of Mormon doggos program price and They only make them available in Mormon colors black brown and red

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You know, you know, there's this there's this friend, you know and Barring.

07:52

Oh, yeah, and so I actually first wrote and said, you know, I I Have this project

07:58

I'm thinking about doing and I you know, I don't want I don't want to offend anybody by making you bind heresy You know a type of a situation and but would this be something you know might be possible.

08:09

Well turns out that the That the fellow knows who

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I am and so we started talking and Basically yesterday

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This Okay, get okay this arrived in in the mail now many of you have seen the pictures of this and I cannot believe

08:35

It's almost like this leather it came from a chameleon

08:41

Because this looks completely different here in the in the studio Than it did in my house that it does in the sunlight the the this is goatskin

08:52

I believe I'll ask Jeffrey in just a moment and It just it just like changes colors you'll notice the

09:00

Alpha Omega embossing there on the on the edge You've got

09:06

Novum Testamentum Grechii 28 then now. I'm a little concerned PTL, you know sounds like You know a copyrighted television program

09:15

But it's not It's it's Latin. I think that's how you get away with it. Is it? No. No, I'm not to comment.

09:20

It's Latin actually So it's written in another language but check out

09:26

Check out that edging now that was sent out to do and they did an incredible job.

09:32

But look at that I mean look at that reflection right there. It's reflecting the the Screen and right there.

09:38

Well, I mean I had to separate the pages You know just like you do with and that's just so much fun with the new

09:44

Bible, you know, but it's the only Greek text that I've had that has the gilded the gilded pages on it and of course the full yap and then get it really close you can see the on the edges there the the

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Sewing along the edges of of the apps got three Three markers in it.

10:05

And as you can see it It's not stiff, but it's not you know, we're just It's it's got a really really good

10:15

Feel to it. And of course, it's as soft as butter I mean it is just and then of course the ridging along along the back very very classy classical type thing and Believe you me.

10:26

There isn't there is not another Nestle Allen 28 edition like that around and so I thought hey

10:35

We won't spend too much of his time because hopefully he's gonna be so busy with so many other people but I asked

10:43

Jeffrey Rice to call in. Hi, Jeffrey. How you doing? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing real well.

10:49

So I assume you've been listening and the description that I gave here so This particular volume first.

10:59

What what would you like to say about it? What were what were the challenges and what did you what did you what did you enjoy doing with this one?

11:09

Well first, I mean we had that conversation Where you went on your bike ride and you said if something was to happen to you that I could keep it

11:16

Well, you know, I might will try to read it and then I open it up and it was like staring into a human brain

11:25

Realizing that that's that's not what I can do. Okay. Well, that's all right Yeah, it's a beautiful text and I Like that it had a rounded spine

11:40

Okay, that that makes it easier for you well, I think it gives a better look a lot of times

11:46

I'll put like a Wrap around hubs Bump on the back of the call hubs, right?

11:54

I'll put a wrap around hugs But it's got a rounded spine. You really don't have to you can still lay the bottle flat and see the hubs right, right now you particularly like doing the

12:07

Stitching along the along the app what what what you have a hand hand stitching around the perimeter?

12:14

that's kind of something I'm known for and What does that do for it or is it just a an aesthetic thing?

12:23

Well, I mean it does make it beautiful. I mean, I think it looks really good to have it stitched

12:29

Yeah, man, it'll make it to where like if a Bible will last you 20 years Hand stitching will make it last 50 to 75.

12:37

It's something if you have it done, you can truly pass it down through your generation Now what now this is this is was it

12:45

Italian goatskin that we used? Yes. Okay, Italian goatskin and I had said

12:51

I had Mentioned to you the kind of color I was looking for and you sent a picture like I said

12:57

Maybe you had the same impression, but it doesn't seem to be the same color any two times.

13:03

I look at it Now every time I took a picture of it was different. Yeah. Yeah, it is so Amazing.

13:10

I've got a guy, you know, you you directed me to him making a guy husband -wife team making a slipcover because I want to be able to carry it with me, but traveling and and and putting stuff in and out of Your bag at TSA checkpoints and stuff like that is just especially with that beautiful edging is is just Absolutely destructive.

13:35

So I've got to have some way of Protecting it, but I definitely want to have that to be able to Take to debates.

13:43

I'll have that for the debate in Florida Obviously because I think the vast majority of the focus in the debate when

13:50

Michael Brown and I are Debating on the subject of homosexuality against two homosexual advocates Will be on the

13:56

New Testament And so I would imagine once you get to see the the video of that there will be flashes of whatever color it ends up being

14:06

During the course of the debate. I don't know what kind of what the temperature of the lights in the room are So who knows what color will end up being but it'll be somewhere between a green and a blue Right now it's it's a beautiful beautiful turquoise, but I I swear at home.

14:19

It was green. I just It's like the Navy with it. Oh, yeah.

14:25

Oh, you mean as far as yeah, the the there was There's a couple different. So there's two navies and a turquoise and then the

14:34

Navy Inside so so what do you I'm not sure? Okay, so yeah the

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Navy that so the inside of the cover is a navy color that matches the stitching

14:46

But then the first page is is a black Thing a black so you've got blue and then black.

14:52

Yeah, okay, so So I hadn't actually shown that part. So just just an incredible Incredible volume.

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It's it's beautiful. Now. I've seen a lot of your other work. I saw brother Melton down in prior

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I saw his preaching Bible and you With the solos on the spine.

15:15

Yeah, and that now that was a pretty Thick Bible, I'm not sure what kind of a

15:20

Bible that was but it was an Allen Bible. Really? Yeah, I've rebound three

15:28

Allen's and probably six Skyler's Wow, I'm telling you what man like I have an hour and a

15:33

Skyler here with me now I actually have four Skyler's but I have to rebound rebound

15:39

But you can hold one of them in one hand and hold one of mine in the other and if you can

15:45

Honestly say if the Allen or the Skyler feel better I will give you Yeah, that's that that's amazing

15:59

I loved I loved what you did with Kofi's work and then My preacher brother down there and prior had the solos on the on on the

16:11

And of course, you got to plan all that out obviously way ahead of time There's a lot of thing is, you know, like what like the whole imprinting the

16:22

Bible That's probably what I hate the most But I have to do it so much

16:29

Yeah, and you got to do it very carefully because one mistake you get that you get to start all over again.

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So yeah I don't have to bend down.

16:43

I don't have to move in some weird way So, I mean, you know back when

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I first started I had it, you know on the tabletop and it was tough man Oh, I imagine maneuver myself

16:57

Well, great so obviously other people have found you before I did and so I Am very thankful that that Kofi, you know now that I think about it.

17:10

I I think I may have seen that preaching

17:15

Bible and just didn't put two and two together or didn't see the links or whatever else It might be I'm not I'm not sure but in any case obviously a lot of the people that watch this program have similar interests to me and so how do they how do they get hold of you if You know,

17:35

I've a lot of folks either Have a Bible they really really really like and they they want to do the rebinding things they can keep the text

17:45

Or there's just a lot of folks that just want to have a really really really really cool looking Binding job on on their

17:53

Bible and I want to keep it for a long time. So I Know that obviously you're on you're on Facebook.

18:00

Did you just pop into Twitter recently? Yeah, Kofi actually tell me man. You need to get you a

18:05

Twitter account I Yeah, cuz cuz when I started following you,

18:11

I think I think yesterday or the day before yesterday You were my first follower. Oh, well, there you go.

18:16

There you go. I Okay, all right, well seven seven years

18:24

I'll take that So they can I told my I told my wife I said man I really like to get a

18:30

Bible and James White's hand and this was months ago right when the preacher's Bible came out Arthur and Then you said you didn't read from from a

18:39

Bible and I was like Yeah, yeah, I know I know but when it comes to the

18:46

Greek text I Will do that because it's a little bit easier to look at the notes and stuff in a in a paper version that it is the electronic version so especially in debates,

18:57

I very frequently do carry that but But be as it may so Obviously Facebook Twitter Facebook I have an email.

19:06

I mean, I'm not email. I mean, yeah, I got email, but I got a website and Bible rebinding calm

19:13

PTL Bible rebinding calm Yeah, cuz it would be a long it'd be very very long to have post tenebrous

19:22

Lux and no Yeah, no, baby. I'll spell it and they'd never find you. So that yeah You know like I want it

19:31

Only get very obvious and we were a reformed family Company, you know and and we wanted to everyone to know that But that God has brought life and immortality the light through the gospel and that's only found in Scripture Great a way for us to express that and to have it out there.

19:54

Well, that's great. I I hope that Those people who've been looking for someone that'll do a great job for him.

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Well, we'll look you up and get in touch with you and Hopefully we'll keep you busy for for a long long time to come and eventually

20:10

I'll get around to Figuring out what I want to do as far as that that triples concern. But right now

20:16

I'm just just very happy to have Have this beauty and I just hope no one ever decides to try to make it walk away from my debate desk

20:26

I Appreciate it. Well, thank you Jeffrey for calling in and All right

20:38

Well, I appreciate that very much keep keep listening and we'll love we'll keep sending people your direction

20:44

All right. Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye All right. There you go Please do not be contacting the ministry going.

20:52

I've got a great company, too That's that's not the point I Know this audience and I know that there are a bunch of people sitting there looking at that going

21:05

That's not fair in fact the look you're giving me right now as you're looking at the television screen or at the at the

21:14

Computer screen is the same look that that King James only fell. What was that King James only fell in London?

21:21

A Jack Jack Mormon Mormon not

21:26

Mormon Mormon Down there is my 15 fit is our the ministries 1550

21:33

Stefanos right right there at the end of my finger. There's the 1550 sponsor right there and when

21:39

I took that to our debate in 2011 February of 2011 in in London the televised one and I'm sitting there holding that in my hand the look on his face is exactly what a bunch of you are doing about my

21:53

Greek New Testament you Shouldn't have that I should have So I'm telling you right now

22:04

If if any of you are thinking Present for my pastor ladies if you're thinking present for my

22:17

Husband or guys if you're thinking present for my wife Christmas is gonna be here before you know it and something tells me

22:28

That that's probably be a busy time for brother Jeffrey. So if I were you I'd sort of think ahead

22:35

Along those lines what I did. I'll tell you straight up. I am I got his address and just had the

22:42

Greek text I spot the Greek text and had sent there Because I did not have a large print na -28 that is a large print it is readable to me still not as big as the as the as the iPad and I'll still be preaching from the iPad, but When it comes to needing to be able to get between texts look at possible text of variants and stuff or just simply to take a text up to The up to the the podium or the lectern or the pulpit or wherever I am teaching

23:12

Yeah, that that baby's gonna be sticking with me for for a long time I just I'm just doing how

23:17

I worry about is TSA guys I literally had them rip a Bible out of my bag the last time

23:23

I traveled we can't see through it You can't see through a book I'm unimpressed if a book can hide things

23:32

But that's the only thing I'm worried about is because I'm gonna tell you something the edging here is just yeah, perfect And I like the silver with the turquoise,

23:43

I think that that goes great so there's a 23 minutes of geekiness But I just I know my audience and I know a bunch of you are like What I would give for a buttery smooth soft perfectly bound gorgeous

24:01

Greek New Testament or by the way, let me just mention I just saw

24:07

And I just pre -ordered from Hendrickson If this is has nothing to do with any of this

24:15

Hendrickson is putting out a Reader's Edition Greek Septuagint, it's based on Ralph's so it's not gonna be you know, it's not like the

24:24

Göttingen critical text or something like that, but You know, it's it's a it's a free text basically, but it's generally accurate but it's it's

24:33

Ralph's edition of the Greek Septuagint Reader's Edition and if you've not seen

24:39

Either the Reader's Old Testament or Reader's New Testament. It's really nice back and back in my day

24:46

Which was shortly after the Apostle Paul died we had Seke Kubo, which was a separate volume he carried

24:56

That was in canonical order and it assumed that you had a 50 word vocabulary.

25:01

In other words, not just 50 words it's about 306 actually, but That you knew all the words that were used 50 or more times in the

25:09

New Testament and if it's used less than 50 times in canonical order, so if you're reading

25:15

Galatians chapter 5 verse 6 You'll be looking at Galatians 5 6 and any words in that Verse that are used less than 50 times.

25:26

There will be a gloss a brief definition. It's not in -depth It's meant to allow you to read with pace read with speed.

25:33

Well That was great at the time but you know you had to Greek New Testament had to be looking back and forth and then they came out with Reader's Editions and They're really nice because you've got the text you've got the same information

25:46

Basically at the at the bottom of the page and so you're just looking at one page You can read even faster than they came out with a

25:53

Reader's Hebrew Is that what that one is, I think that's yeah,

25:59

I think over there in the corner and that I had rebound to Is the

26:06

Hebrew and Greek with the Reader's stuff that one up on the the thing above it might be a little

26:12

Bobby right there and that's the the company that I lost track of but they did a real nice job on that and So you've got the

26:20

Reader's Editions of those and now the Greek Septuagint and the Septuagint That's gonna be

26:27

I think really helpful to spend a little time each day doing some reading in that Just because of the the deep interaction of the

26:35

Greek Septuagint with the New Testament I think that'll be extremely useful extremely useful. So There you go.

26:42

All right, I Knew I'd go a little bit longer on that. But hey, it's it's geeks are us

26:52

So Supposed to be untagged for something People posting some pictures and things like that I posted a

27:05

The longest thread anyone has ever seen on Twitter this morning In fact, I did not know that there was a maximum number of tweets.

27:14

You can put into a thread. I think it's 20 Yeah, I Had to ask for ask for help more than once you can't you cannot respond to anybody with a threat you can only start a thread on Twitter on the website and Then once you post something there will be a little plus and you hit plus it opens up another window for the next one

27:35

Then the next one the next one next that's that's how you do it And what's nice about it is you cut and paste and it'll outline in red what goes over the limit

27:44

So you can just go back easily cut that out go back to your thing cut paste the next part It takes time, but at least they're making it somewhat easier to do

27:55

And so that's That's what I did this morning. And what I did is

28:00

I I saw various people posting this thread

28:08

And It was in response to John MacArthur and As most of you know, dr.

28:16

MacArthur began a blog series yesterday It was just a prologue it was just the the forward the introduction

28:26

But many people could not restrain themselves to Find out to wait until the entirety of the presentation was was made

28:40

People like Dr. Anthony Bradley Immediately talked about him face planting into a pile of conservative ideological.

28:51

What was it? I forget what it was, but it was anything but respectful. It was extremely disrespectful dismissive

28:59

Dr. Bradley has written a few books on the subject and so he does seem to think that he's the only one that can really

29:05

Talk about the subject What's interesting is every time he said well go watch this

29:11

I'll go watch the video And then when I ask questions about I don't get answers well read my chapter and okay

29:16

I did so then I wrote back Don't get any answers Maybe that's just his way of getting me to read his stuff and watch his videos, but maybe someday

29:25

I don't know but I have invested the time. Anyways, there were there were these responses now this response

29:32

That I responded to was not Vitriolic but because it wasn't vitriolic unlike so many of the others

29:42

That made it useful, but also I think somewhat dangerous in this sense If you read my response and I posted it as an entire thing.

29:51

It's about five pages long actually on Facebook I Analyzed the thread

30:01

Presuppositionally and that doesn't mean that I have a candle lit in front of a portrait of Van Till I've Emphasized on this program literally for decades and there are some of you

30:18

Who either were you may not have been listening back then but now that you've gotten hooked in you've gone back

30:24

Into the archives there are certain and those people will testify. Yeah, you have been consistent in emphasizing this for years

30:34

That you must listen to arguments and identify the underlying presuppositions

30:42

We live in a day where we don't teach Logic I I was a seminary graduate before I took a class in logic

30:54

Thankfully one of my fellow elders now, he's one of my fellow elders Jim Callahan taught logic at Phoenix College for years.

31:02

And so I took logic with him and That was extremely valuable obviously, it wasn't the first time

31:10

I was encountering a lot of those concepts But we just don't we just don't teach people to think rigorously and to examine

31:20

Argumentation rigorously. In fact, there's a mindset amongst many people that amongst Christians if you rigorously analyze a sermon

31:28

For example that you're being unspiritual and you're being unkind to the individual delivering the sermon.

31:34

I Find that incredibly dangerous now if you're so immature as a

31:40

Christian that you cannot Engage the critical thinking side of your mind without also engaging the

31:51

Emotional attack dog nastiness side of your mind. Well, okay But if you are an adult you should be able to Control the emotional aspects of Of your thinking and be able to Presuppositionally analyze what's being said if we don't do that, we will always be controlled by other people and That's the greatest danger that I see in the younger generation

32:24

Looking at the educational methodologies being used in the public education sector is it is purposefully creating a

32:32

People who can be manipulated and controlled by others That's what's creating that's where we are and That's why the older generation older generations are so out of step with the younger generations is we weren't raised that way and So we listen to a politician

32:49

I can listen to a politician and go I appreciate that that and that but that that are you? kidding me and those the

32:55

Fundamental issues. These are the foundational things. These are leather things and so I can prioritize those things Millennials Generation Z What's prioritized?

33:06

What's foundational? What's fundamental? it's all about emotion and feeling and me and all the rest that stuff and and that's why we are we and it's all

33:16

Purposeful folks. It's all Purposeful it Didn't just happen overnight

33:22

You don't hijack the entire educational system without having a goal and an aim in so doing but Anyway, how'd

33:32

I get on to that sermon? I apologize. Um, so I I wrote a lengthy tweet thread in response where I point out the presuppositional foundations of what is being said the assumptions that are unspoken but are necessarily there or or the statements don't make any sense and So that's that's on my

34:01

Facebook page and you can find the lengthy tread tread thread on on Twitter This is just the beginning

34:12

There are people that I'm so tired of this. Yeah, I get it. And that's exactly how

34:18

Progress or regress is being made culturally is the fact that The other side recognizes that eventually you just get tired about because this isn't this isn't what

34:30

I wake up thinking about But it is for certain people and they will come at it every single day and seek to accomplish their ends

34:40

When we get tired and abandon the the defenses There are clearly

34:48

Things that may be coming out over the next couple of weeks that are going to Result in conversation and discussion and As that happens my my true desire is

35:06

That we would not see the kind of knee -jerk reactions that we're seeing right now That we would not see

35:15

Either side just simply condemning everybody on the other side to the flames of perdition

35:23

There is nothing wrong in hearing what someone has to say as Long as you hear accurately and as long as you test everything

35:36

By the Word of God and by a consistent hermeneutical approach I'll mention quickly last night

35:46

I Listened to think it was last night. I got up very early this morning.

35:52

I listened to cross -politic and They had

35:57

Jonathan Merritt on I Would have used the mute button a few times

36:06

Because he just start talking and just And it was plain that's what he had chosen to do that was that was what he wanted wanted to accomplish was was that But That was um, that was something else and I just mentioned last night

36:26

I was listening to him filibustering and But the main thing was the sources from which he's drawing his argumentation

36:36

As a fuller grad I'm like, oh Reading a lot of Brueggemann these days, huh? Okay, and I mentioned this last time, you know

36:42

I talked about Brueggemann when we went over his interview with Andy Stanley came up again on Cross -politic and T.

36:50

Wright things like that. And by the way, there isn't the the only thing that a lot of these people hold have in common is

37:00

An interesting view of the authority of Scripture, I mean NT Wright would have the highest view of all the people that he mentioned

37:07

But even he has made reference in the past according to others anyways to that silly

37:13

American doctrine called inerrancy. So He he is and an

37:19

Anglican along those lines bit as it may it was Educational listen to and Troubling at the same time.

37:29

You need to understand Jonathan Merritt is an advocate for a particular brand of I Can't call it evangelicalism

37:41

Whatever you want to call it it is he is an advocate for a position. He's not just a

37:49

Journalist he is advocating for a position and I think needs to be seen As as an advocate along those lines, okay

37:58

Let me that's not the one that I wanted And let me maximize that I think this is close to where we were

38:08

I would like to get back for a little while anyways to Responding a bit to the three

38:16

Mormons. I have not seen any Replies from the young people

38:24

It Looks like They've been at this for a while.

38:29

And so maybe they have a production schedule or Schools probably just starting for a number of them

38:35

I'm not trying to say they're running and hiding or something right along those lines. I even suggesting it but you know, maybe that's why

38:42

There hasn't been any response at least to me. I I would Maybe there has been to apology and they haven't told me that or something like that yet.

38:51

I don't know But I'm hoping that there will be some interaction I have promised to send them

38:59

Copies of my books on the subject if they would like to because as we have documented on the last program

39:05

They they do not understand Some of the issues that they are rather confidently addressing and we saw for example the misrepresentation of the

39:12

Doctrine of the Trinity Three beings that are one being it's not we believe and that's such a basic thing that You Know it would be good if if they would take the time to increase their knowledge of these things

39:27

That's always a positive thing. So we were looking at a video where three

39:35

Mormons were talking about can men become gods and so I wanted to pick up with some of the comments there and We will press on let's hopefully this will work as we didn't really test this out.

39:49

But We'll find out don't worry about being a god because we need to be worrying about is the present

39:57

Am I in a state where if God were to meet me now what I feel comfortable? Yes Yeah, you know and if I don't feel comfortable that means

40:05

I'm not progressing to be like that Mm -hmm. I think that's like what's so important and why we're here is to progress, right?

40:10

We're always progressing and we're learning to be remember how many times the Apostles spoke of progression never

40:19

It's it Again I read from the

40:27

Celestial marriage manual You are you were never created.

40:32

You're not a created being You cannot be destroyed in Mormonism God men and angels are all the same species of being and So there is such a foundational

40:45

Fundamental at the heart difference between Christianity and Mormonism That and I'll say this for the three

40:53

Mormons. That's why I've said many times before Islam is considerably closer to biblical

40:58

Christianity than Mormonism is because Islam is monotheistic there at least you have a self -existing deity who has created all things in Mormonism you have a literal literally unlimited number of deities and The deity of this world was once a man lived on another planet and the deity

41:21

He worshipped was once a man lived on another planet and your mind is wearied with the generations going back and back and back

41:27

To quote from I think that was Orson Pratt anyway so Such a foundational fundamental thing that so you you hear this and you hear these young people using terminology

41:41

That we automatically attempt to to define it from our lexicon

41:47

But the lexicon is completely different it has a completely different meaning to it and That is what normally disrupts conversations

41:56

With Mormons as you you think you're communicating and all of a sudden it seems like they took a left or you took a left

42:02

Or something when the reality is you hadn't been communicating all along Because of the the language barrier

42:08

Like you know our Our father in heaven and to learn responsibilities like the power of procreation is like a small

42:16

Taste of like the power of creation, right? Yeah, the power of procreation The ability to bring little children into the world

42:25

Remember what makes God God and Mormonism the power of the priesthood and the power of procreation and you go

42:34

What How the priesthood power the power create procreation that's what makes that's ultimate exaltation

42:42

Everybody who's not in the highest level of celestial kingdom in Mormonism is damned damned in the sense of damned up in their progression to that highest level and so what makes the people in the highest level of exaltation different than everybody else is

43:01

The power of priesthood the power procreation. That's what makes God God instead of just an angel You just go

43:08

Yeah, that's I'm telling you it is so far removed from Christianity that it's it's stunning

43:15

I mean I can say with absolute confidence Nobody except maybe origin in the early church

43:23

Would have done anything other than gone away from me heretic if they had ever encountered anything

43:30

That looked like Mormonism and I say origin because you know origin was just a little weird

43:35

You're to learn to control that power and to control like the gift that we've been given, you know, even

43:41

Jesus Christ himself He says be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect And then when Jesus Christ is resurrected, he says be perfect even as I am perfect So this idea

43:49

I think that one actually the second one comes to the Book of Mormon, but in in any case In the

43:56

Sermon on the Mount he does say that and that is in the context of Completeness of what of who you are.

44:03

So God is perfect complete God We are called to be his creatures That does not mean that we are called to be him and again presupposition being in their mind well,

44:14

God himself is of the same species he was once a man like us and The reality is that he says that's not true action isn't just spirituality.

44:24

Is it just overcoming sin? It's the idea of it's a being it's a state of being. Mm -hmm You know,

44:29

I think a modern -day idea of heaven is lounging around bowing or ever to God okay now at this point

44:36

I cannot help but remember Conversation on The sidewalk outside of the

44:47

Easter pageant and it was down toward The west side

44:56

Of what did we call that was that corner? Two or three or four?

45:02

I've lost track of which one it was but it was the one down near the stage where people would come in down down that side, so maybe corner four and I Was talking with a

45:15

Mormon missionary and I don't know why given At least 5 ,000 such conversations.

45:21

I'm not sure exactly why this one Stuck with me But Maybe because it lasted a little bit longer and and we got into this very subject, but you will find a

45:35

Consistency amongst Mormons on this particular topic They cuz they'll they'll bring it up But he was talking about what you know

45:46

What do you think we're gonna do float around heaven on clouds plucking at harps all day long with angel wings, you know and the point was that He could not conceive and that's what they're good.

46:00

That's what they're talking about here. You could not conceive of How worship of God Could be something that Through eternity would be a

46:17

Fulfilling thing and And You know,

46:22

I understand that Because if God's just an exalted may have another planet and we're the same species

46:30

You can say thanks for a while, but yeah, how could you be absorbed in prayer and praise?

46:39

Mormonism does not have a true God Mormonism has an exalted man that lives on a planet that circles a star named

46:47

Kolob From a fictional book that Joseph Smith made up in his mind based upon Egyptian funerary documents that he couldn't read a single word of and so When Joseph Smith said we have imagined and supposed that God was

47:06

God from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see Joseph Smith separated all of his followers from the

47:16

Christian faith forever So if you don't have a God who has been

47:21

God from all eternity From everlasting to everlasting Psalm 90 verse 2 then

47:27

I can understand why you'd go. I don't know. I'm not sure I really want to you know Cogitate upon a future that would be so boring to me

47:38

Whereas a Christian goes I can't imagine we can't even begin to conceive of Not our exaltation but coming to know more and more about the object of our

47:56

Passionate worship and love because the greatest commandment is love the Lord your heart soul mind and strength sin keeps us from being able to Do that once sin is removed.

48:04

We will be able to love him completely and if he's just a

48:11

Fellow redeemed. I mean if one of these two young men becomes a god someday then they were fallen now, right?

48:19

They were ignorant now, right and so someday you're gonna worship somebody's gonna worship them

48:29

There is such a chasm that exists such a huge huge chasm that exists between Christianity and Mormonism been down are you just kissing

48:39

Jesus's feet forever? But there's work to do this progression. You have to you're gonna continue to learn we are

48:45

Eternal intelligences and we continue to grow. It's amazing Obviously, there's not enough time in the world to talk about this subject.

48:52

It's a great so we just like touch the water It's just gonna right. I gotta ask a question We get planets you get your own planet.

48:58

Yeah, cuz if so, I there's a Google Doc I signed to get Jupiter, you know, I want to put a guy.

49:04

Do you get a planet? Well, you know it's a it's a perfectly fair question and there is in the history

49:14

Of the development of Mormon thought a fair amount of divergence, I mean You can document very very clearly

49:26

The reality that there was disagreement between Mormon leaders over whether Well, it can be illustrated by do we do we call it the law of eternal progression or the eternal law of progression

49:47

Because there's a subtle difference between those two Some Mormon leaders,

49:54

I think this does go back faithfully to Joseph Smith believed that Eternal progression meant just that that that God would continually

50:04

Continue to progress which would mean he has not yet Reached an ultimate state and how could he because there's always a

50:11

God ahead of him the sort of the the train track idea Where you can't get ahead of the people that are you can't get ahead of the cars that are ahead of you on the on the track

50:20

But then there are others. They're like no no once you know, God eventually reaches the full status of Godship and it's just as much

50:29

God as anybody else and Mormons will on the one hand go.

50:36

Yeah. Yeah, I like that But then as we've seen these young people say well, you know, I'm always you know,

50:42

God's always gonna be my God I'm always gonna look up to him. Well, that's the train track one So which which ones which you can't have your cake and eat it, too

50:52

But Mormon theology does do the cake and eat it to thing. Yes I was gonna say that what

50:58

I'm finding interesting and watching this is the fish The fish no, not the fish the

51:05

We have a choir we have we hello We have a maybe Mike Mike's not working right here or the third the first vision picture that they don't publish anymore we have a chart that you made up many many many moons ago and on the

51:21

Law of Eternal Progression and What as I'm listening to this it's like, you know what folks it's we have it on our sermon audio channel

51:29

It's also on our YouTube channel where you can download it All you got to do is go put that chart in front of you and listen to these kids

51:39

It's as if they're following the very chart. Yeah Yeah, well how many times we had you you were there in at KTKK?

51:49

Yeah But how many people how many times have we? Said this kind of stuff even out in Mesa as you're starting to talk to a

51:58

Mormon you're explaining This is what Mormonism teaches and believes and they look at you that you're crazy. No, nobody ever believes this that stuff

52:05

Are you crazy? You're making this up and If you think we're making this up folks get that chart follow these kids and It's right there as plain as day we ain't making this up No, no, we're not we're not making any of it up and what

52:21

I was gonna say is we had we had done a radio program on KTKK in Salt Lake City and After after the program one of the people that's on the program had had said, you know,

52:35

I You know appreciate that you all, you know Try to accurately represent we're saying and you've y 'all been really consistent down through the years in in your objections to Mormonism, it's not like There have been times when certain large

52:50

Well -known ministries sort of gone aft after one thing and then off after another thing and there be changes and stuff

52:56

We've been saying the same things about Mormonism since I first started teaching a class on Mormonism in Wow 1982 it was fall of 80 was a fall of 82 maybe spring of 83 somewhere around there is when

53:17

I started teaching a class on Mormonism at North Phoenix Baptist Church and I've still got the I've still got the notes.

53:22

I know which I know which Notebook in the other room the the orange one with all those same type of flashy stickers on it

53:30

That I've got in the front of that one over there rainbow stickers Not that kind of rainbow the refracting spectrum type things anyways,

53:40

I've still got in the other room and Stand by what we said then hopefully know more about it now that we did then

53:47

Because we've done a lot more studies since then but yeah, we've been consistent So we press on but like we're saying like we believe we can become gods and we can

53:55

God We believe that God created the universe, you know, you believe that God organized the universe. This is one one criticism.

54:02

I have is that they're definitely co -opting Christian language here in such a fashion that It miscommunicates the realities of Mormonism the

54:16

Mormon God cannot create anything The Mormon God himself is not eternal but matter is eternal and all the

54:24

Mormon God can do is reorganize matter He cannot create matter.

54:30

He cannot say let there be and there is Anything that exists that matter

54:37

Did not come about because of the exercise of Elohim's will Remember there was a

54:43

God that had to organize the plant that he lived on While he was a man and so on and so forth So I wish they'd be a little bit clearer at this point and and not use the language we use because we believe crash

54:54

UX and helo God creates out of or into nothing and Is not dependent upon anything else and there is no category for that in classical

55:03

Mormon teaching just just Read teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith read articles of faith.

55:10

It's it's right there. It's it's right in front of you We're gonna do a few more minutes of this and then we'll go ahead and open the open the phones if that's okay eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is

55:28

The phone number that you can call will try to get some calls in today After we do a little bit more looking at the three

55:35

Mormons Logically, if you believe that we're going to be like God in every shape way and form

55:40

We will be able to create create. We have no idea Yeah, I just don't want to touch the idea of you know, if you got four planets, you're a better God than I am

55:49

Well, it's funny cuz actually I have rings. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, it's it's it's funny that they joke about it, but There there is a discussion, you know in if you go read the

56:00

Journal of Discourses Of levels of exaltation and of The extent of one's kingdom and power and and so on and so forth and if you've brought a

56:14

Hundred million gods into existence and somebody else has only done ten If you have 30 billion people worshipping you and someone else only got 10 million people worshipping them

56:29

You know once you make godhood Once you make the existence of God men and angels a spectrum

56:38

Isn't there a possibility of that kind of thing? I mean again has nothing to do with the

56:43

Bible the Bible knows nothing of anything like this But there you go, like a really nice planet single

56:51

Planets are from Brooklyn. So, uh, and I guess we just want to emphasize to like we believe that we're becoming like God But we will never be our

56:58

God. He will always be our God and we will always Look okay. Now if that's true if that's true this causes a severe problem because that means that Elohim is looking up to another

57:12

God and Jehovah evidently is looking up to Elohim and the Holy Spirit's looking up to the both of them,

57:18

I guess We don't know but the point is if God will always be their

57:23

God That means that his God will always be his God So the

57:29

God that they worship is worshipping another God This again bumps right into I mean that makes sense on the train track analogy

57:39

It doesn't make sense on the final exaltation analogy, though. The final exaltation perspective is more common today.

57:45

So which is it? They don't know They don't know depends on which Mormon you talk to Before me there is a

57:53

God for him there should be none after me. That's what God said for direction He will always be our Heavenly Father. Now.

57:59

Does this mean we're polytheists? Yes Yeah, no, it does.

58:04

Come on guys Plurality of gods Did you want me to read you what

58:09

Joseph Smith said plurality of gods is polytheism You have God the

58:15

Father he begets that's Elohim. He begets Jehovah And you guys are really confused about who the

58:22

Holy Ghost is Holy Spirit is all the rest that kind of stuff There's all sorts of weird stuff on that one, but that's three right there first vision two separate distinct that's that's two

58:32

That's polytheism right there. It's maybe a form of he no theism, but it's still polytheistic and Do I need to quote?

58:40

That you know God has a God before him until the mind is wearied in the successive generations

58:45

You know, I can go grab the Journal of Discourses if you want me to read them their prophets and apostles you ain't

58:51

Makes perfect sense. You know, that's why that's why I was reading from the King Follett funeral discourse

58:59

So yes, you are polytheists. This is this is not even a question. This is not even a debatable issue even if you

59:07

Stop with just a God of this world. You got three. Okay, that's

59:12

Poly right there. This is unit. That's poly. You've got three and We only have one the

59:19

Bible only has one that's Yahweh 534 times in the Old Testament. It's the compound named

59:25

Yahweh Elohim Jehovah Elohim That's why Deuteronomy 435 says to you shown that you might know

59:31

Jehovah. He is Elohim. There's no else besides him You all don't your leaders didn't understand this they were

59:40

Joseph Smith was illiterate as far as Greek and Hebrew were concerned. He made all sorts of silly errors linguistically speaking pretending to do stuff that he could not actually do as an alleged prophet and in 1916 the first presidency a little over a hundred years ago

59:58

Came out with a statement identifying Elohim as a father and Jehovah as a son now When I had my dialogue with Alma already a few weeks ago, even he admitted.

01:00:06

Yeah That wasn't much of a that's not what Joseph Smith taught Joseph Smith did not have the

01:00:13

Elohim Jehovah distinction, but I Don't know if you guys have been in the temple I think you probably have but if you know the creation scene

01:00:21

Then you know that Elohim sends down Jehovah and Michael to organize not create organize the earth one two

01:00:28

Then you got an angel. So that's polytheism right there. So it's not a question This is that there's you know, let's just be straightforward about this is a

01:00:37

Paul this Mormonism in its purest Orthodox form is the most polytheistic religion

01:00:43

I've ever encountered the Some religions

01:00:49

Hindus Allegedly have 330 million gods But I have had well -read highly connected

01:00:59

Mormons say there are an unlimited number of gods Not in this universe.

01:01:06

That's why they start using pluralities universes But that's the most polytheistic religion man has ever even conceived of And you'll find that in in Mormon writers.

01:01:18

We do not worship more than one God We worship our God who is our Heavenly Father So you don't worship

01:01:25

Jesus, you know worship the Holy Spirit What sir, yes, sir, I don't know you're you're oh

01:01:37

I Mean I I know you've obviously had conversations about this, but I'm sorry even the

01:01:42

Book of Mormon says you do that and The Book of Mormon was written before this stuff developed

01:01:48

So it's sort of hard to hold it all together, isn't it? Because Joseph Smith was a modalist back then But anyways, it's sort of confusing.

01:01:54

I realize that oh any you know Any idea that we pay attention to that we have names for other gods.

01:02:00

It's false. It's baloney It's fake news we believe in our

01:02:06

Heavenly Father and that's who we serve and Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost, right?

01:02:13

That's that's three. They're gods, right? And it is the first Principle of the gospel to know for certain to the carrot of God No, we may converse him as one man converses another and a godfather was man just gonna live on the planet

01:02:28

You know, so who created that planet? Don't tell me this stuff is Just speculation. It's not just speculation

01:02:37

Have you all spent much time reading in the Journal of Discourse, I mean, I haven't read all of them I wouldn't want to it's a majority was boring, but I've read enough to go.

01:02:44

Yeah. Yeah This is this is what the this is what the Mormon apostles and prophets were teaching on with Jesus Christ Something really really interesting about this doctrine is that it was given to us in light of the restoration so we know this because of the restoration but and of course there was no need for a restoration because the

01:03:01

Biblical teaching is that the church would exist until Jesus Christ returns and that God would be the one that would accomplish that just so you're aware of that It really is an eternal truth.

01:03:11

And if you want to find and quote some early Christian church fathers, they're there Saint Arrhenius an early

01:03:18

Christian theologian and church father said this we were not made gods now You'll notice he's reading from a phone he ain't reading from the early church fathers and this is where I would

01:03:31

And I had mentioned this When we did The Apollygia stuff what on earth?

01:03:40

What did I there it is? Isamara my brother has an entire section on Theosis becoming a god

01:03:52

That deals with the issues regarding some some of the early church fathers and things like that But gives you a lot of references so you can go back and as I mentioned on Apollygia The key issue here for these young folks to recognize is you cannot show me a single one of the early church fathers that believed that God was once a man who lived on another planet and so all the texts that talk about our becoming gods are spoken by a

01:04:27

Monotheist talking about the gracious act of God in giving to us eternal life and taking us to heaven and Having made us in his image, which is not a physical image and the exaltation and well actually it's not termed exaltation glorification that will be ours by grace that never

01:04:46

Changes the reality that there is only one true and eternal God who has eternally existed.

01:04:52

We have not eternally existed Therefore we can never be God as God is God so you can play around with Athanasius or Irenaeus Some of us have taken the time to actually read them in their entirety and know what they actually taught

01:05:07

We're not reading something off of a little screen that we got off a website someplace I would highly recommend that you do a little bit more fair Analysis at at that point now, there is a you can go ahead and take them down.

01:05:20

There is a another video We'll get to was God married I have it queued up here, but we want to be able to get to I did say we take some some phone calls

01:05:30

So we want to be able to do that. We will Get to that in in time and eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and so Well, that's interesting

01:05:49

Okay, let's talk with Joe in Charlotte. Hi Joe Hey James Charlotte I'm trying to set up something

01:05:58

Maybe just keep an eye on on November for something there in Charlotte.

01:06:03

Will we be in the University area in Charlotte? I don't know

01:06:08

Charlotte well enough to tell you that but we're looking at trying to put together a Dialogue there in the

01:06:15

Charlotte area, so it it'll be one of them. They're controversial kinds. Oh Oh boy with Michael Brown.

01:06:22

I know he's in the area. So well, Michael would be involved if it works. So yes, okay Cool looking forward to it

01:06:29

Okay, what can we do for you? Yeah, my question, um has to do with Soul scriptura and I've just noticed and Watching you debate

01:06:43

Roman Catholics. They tend to bring up. I know the Common argument.

01:06:48

Well, how do you know this Bible and this book belongs to Scripture and You seem to rightfully point out that it's

01:06:56

God who inspires Scripture and not any church But where I get lost after that is

01:07:03

They always bring up this onto ontological versus epistemological distinction that yes ontologically

01:07:10

Books of the Bible are inspired by God not by the church, but epistemologically we come to know what's part of the canon

01:07:16

Through the church. And so I was wondering what is the Protestant understanding?

01:07:22

That's not priest or maybe it is pre -propositional. It's only that's the only way you can do it That you know that God and ontologically inspired that particular text and not that one

01:07:34

I tried it very concisely Awful, but that's kind of a hard question. So well, so I'm going to assume that You've not seen my book scripture alone

01:07:47

No, I haven't read it, but I have seen you discuss this topic. Yeah, there's there's there's two chapters in there and then

01:07:54

Michael Kruger No, I haven't read his books. Did you see the Video that he and I did on the canon of scripture at the g3 conference this year

01:08:06

I might have I'm not entirely sure. I'm not very familiar with Kruger. So yeah, so well

01:08:12

He's he's gonna be the one to I mean if you really want to go in depth on this

01:08:17

He's he's the one to to look at right now but so There's there's a lot of stuff there and it lays behind What you have heard for example in the debate with Peter D Williams Just a couple months ago in Belfast this came up as it comes up almost every time and In this context,

01:08:41

I was able to sort of turn the tables on him and and demonstrate in light of What's going on with Pope Francis and his?

01:08:52

Obviously not being you know sort of making fun of the joke is the

01:08:58

Pope Catholic. Well right now We're not really certain about that They've able to basically demonstrate that his presupposed epistemological certainty based upon The statements of the church is not an epistemological certainty

01:09:13

Historically, for example, there's a difference between the canon lists that have been promulgated by various Church councils in the early church and later church councils, for example

01:09:23

What you have it Carthage and Hippo as far as the Old Testament books is different Than what

01:09:30

Trent? promulgates in 1546 so There are those historical issues

01:09:36

But I was able to point out that the fundamental difference that we are seeing now thanks to Pope Francis is that the issue is of ultimate authorities and the nature of Scripture as they are new stars over against the church as not being

01:09:52

They are new stars an ultimate authority by its Nature has to be able to bear the weight of being an ultimate authority

01:09:59

God can because he is God because his nature is Infinite is able to bear the stress and strain of being the epistemological ultimate reference point and if scripture is the honest us that is

01:10:14

God breathe that is the very intimate voice of God Then it cannot appeal to an external source for its authority and people say well, that's just the ontological aspect

01:10:24

Well, that's why I have made dr. Kruger obviously uses Fancier terms, but I've Illustrated over the years by just simply canon 1 and canon 2 canon 1 is the canon as it exists in God's mind

01:10:40

That is once God has inspired a single book, but he has not written all books a canon automatically comes into existence

01:10:48

God knows exactly what he is inspired and what he is not And so God has this this perfect knowledge of the canon and that is canon 1 and that is not dependent upon any human being

01:10:59

The question that they raise then is well, what good is that? If you don't have canon 2 which is human knowledge these things

01:11:08

I say well first a You must admit God could have inspired a perfect body of revelation for us and then told nobody about it

01:11:17

The canon would still exist and nobody would know about it And so the question becomes does scripture itself tell us that there is a purpose that there is a reason

01:11:28

Why God has given scripture to his people that therefore would have him utilize means so as to Make sure that the church

01:11:39

Possesses what he has provided for them in the inspired words and the and the very act of inspiration and I argue in Scripture alone.

01:11:48

I think I think I also Yeah, I did also address this in the Roman Catholic controversy and then you can get it in fancier form from Dr.

01:11:58

Kruger's works that God is going to extend exactly as much divine power to make sure the church possesses scripture as he did in the inspiration of scripture because The inspiration of scripture had a goal or a purpose in his degree to create to fulfill and We have to be able to have it for it to fulfill that decree.

01:12:23

And so he can then use means But you see if you don't start with the nature of scripture and Rome by the way

01:12:35

Technically wouldn't Rome even agree with that position that God is actually accomplishing that through the means

01:12:43

Well No, I don't want to get sidetracked on that no, I would

01:12:49

I would say no because when I say when I say accomplishing his decree Rome's doctrine of well, okay

01:12:58

Rome has all sorts of different doctrines, but I'm afraid we sort of like a Thomas might be okay with that Thomas might be okay with that But the

01:13:06

Thomas are not in ascendancy right now And I would I would I would have to say looking at the

01:13:13

Jesuits Right now in the College of Cardinals That if you found two or three in there, they would even get close to that.

01:13:21

I'd be somewhat surprised. So It I'm sorry Something something

01:13:31

You just disappear I'm sorry. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Now you can but you do disappear there for a while So the

01:13:38

Catholics while not all of them may hold to this view that you're explaining here, for example a

01:13:43

Thomist They have a means by which they can receive this epistemological knowledge

01:13:48

You know, not that's a predominant, but you know, they can receive this knowledge, you know through the church Where that that's a presupposition on their point that you know, the church is the church

01:13:59

For a Protestant does that mean the presupposition lies on I'm a part of I'm part of God's people and God will ensure that I get

01:14:06

Scripture no, no, no. No, it's okay. There's there's no the assumption the part of the part of the assumption here is that The Roman Catholic concept of what the church is can actually carry sufficient water here

01:14:22

We obviously have very very different views of what the church was in the early centuries they connect the church to apostolic succession of Office we connect the church to apostolic succession of truth

01:14:40

And so we focus upon the actual true body Which is known to God and it is

01:14:46

God's intention that that true body of true believers, which only he is knowledgeable of the exact membership of that that Logically certain that you are a member of that true body.

01:15:01

You can't be epistemologically certain of the canon No, because you're assuming that that that this is an issue that somehow remains open to our day

01:15:12

If it's been God's purpose that his people down to the ages possess his word

01:15:18

Then there's no reason unless you believe that the church ceased to exist or or something.

01:15:23

There's there's no reason to believe that There is any level of uncertainty left.

01:15:31

I mean, why would he why would he leave? 1 ,500 years worth of of the church

01:15:38

Without the scriptures that doesn't make any sense I mean there's the same type of time period between the the final writing of the scriptures and their recognition for The New Testament as there was for the old

01:15:51

But that didn't cause Jesus any problems and holding men accountable for knowing what the scriptures were then without some infallible church to tell them

01:15:59

What what it was? God had been able to work with even the less than Well, I mean the progenitor is the

01:16:08

Pharisees He had been able to work with with the Jewish people in that context to bring about a canon without the utilization of some external

01:16:16

Authority that was binding upon everybody in the days of Jesus and it's pretty much the exact same time frame that you have for the recognition of the canon of Scripture But again, the that the point is not to remove the process from history or even to not recognize

01:16:33

God's use of means It is to recognize that the canon itself by nature is the artifact of Revelation that then had

01:16:45

God had a purpose in making sure that his people possessed it It's if once you lose either one of those two exactly.

01:16:53

I think I think All types of Christians agree on that. Um, the thing is is for a

01:17:00

Protestant, but not I don't I don't think all types of Christians believe agree on that Okay Okay, many at least

01:17:08

I think no the Roman Catholic Church really does see a canonical authority in Ecclesiastical councils, it's not that it's not that the church makes it canon.

01:17:20

It's not barred. It's not barred The aspect the fact that when God inspired scripture

01:17:27

That creates an ontological canon that doesn't not just because they believe those

01:17:33

Epistemological certainty in councils does not mean that the ultimate of The where inerrancy comes from is from God.

01:17:39

It doesn't doesn't those aren't mutually exclusive ideas well, no, they're not mutually exclusive ideas, but the creation of The idea that canon itself is based in the nature of the documents

01:17:59

You might get some Roman Catholics to agree to that today, but until we started bringing that up You never heard that in any of the conversations there that they were that they were having

01:18:10

Catholic answers never said a word about it I don't know if you could um, it'd be really interesting to write an article sometime documenting that because Well, I don't know.

01:18:20

I just find that I find that amazing. I just don't find that plausible that they would actually Say that the inspiration comes from the fact that the church recognizes it not from the fact that the

01:18:31

Holy Spirit has inspired it No, but they would say but they would say it the only no, they would say it the absolute only way that any individual

01:18:39

Can have any knowledge whatsoever is because the church has said so it's canonical that that canonical authority is

01:18:46

Invested in the allegedly infallible church and once you once you make the church

01:18:54

Determinative of what is the anus toss you have inverted the proper authority determinative implies ontology

01:19:03

The church isn't determining the scripture in the sense that they're creating it. They're recognizing it infallibly and That that is their their

01:19:11

God -given role and right? Yeah, which which you agree with you just don't think it's the

01:19:16

Catholic Church. You believe it's a more Church, no, I did not I I never said the church has canonical authority

01:19:24

No, no, I mean that epistemologically as Christians we come to Be benefactors of God's decree for his people to have the canon, right?

01:19:35

God has a God as a church being a member of the church God We are yeah, God has a purpose

01:19:40

So let me say so let me ask you Joe since you seem to hold that position How did the believing Jew 50 years before Christ know that Isaiah and 2nd

01:19:48

Chronicles description? I? Mean, I guess I could talk about that. It's not really

01:19:53

I'm more interested in your view on Because the Roman Catholic position doesn't have an answer.

01:19:59

That's why I do it doesn't have an answer that one Well, you seem to be a Roman Catholic. So No, I just why just joined the church this last year actually call.

01:20:08

Yeah, we could tell earlier Yeah, we could tell and you enjoy enjoy enjoy you don't enjoy you don't have an answer that question because there isn't one

01:20:15

I mean, I'm sure I could I'm sure I can go I have yet to Dispect that question.

01:20:21

I think I've heard you mentioned it once I just kind of put it on the back burner to be honest Yeah, but you know,

01:20:26

I mentioned a number of times actually You have okay. Well, I think I heard you say at one time and haven't really looked into it much further.

01:20:34

So, sorry Alrighty, Joe. Well, we've we've spent 15 minutes on that one and I appreciate hearing your answers.

01:20:42

So Thank you. Okay. Thanks for calling. All right. Bye And it only took me about You know seven or eight minutes to figure out we were we were actually getting a the argument from the other side

01:20:55

Not just a question about it Let's talk to Monty Hello Monty Hi, dr.

01:21:04

White. Hello. Go ahead. Hello Hi, I Have been reading and listening to the various discussions going on relating to the revoice conference and one thing that I hadn't heard mentioned, but kind of strikes strikes me as being a possible connection would be the

01:21:31

Refusal on the part of the LGBT Those those aligning on that side of this type of a discussion the refusal for them to acknowledge that the nature of God's Saving work includes a changing of our person not just a

01:21:55

Declaration they seem to be very tied up in the identity issue and I haven't heard any comments from anybody on either side of this about The connection may be between that and the

01:22:08

Lordship salvation controversies that were such a war a couple decades back Well, no,

01:22:14

I have There there has been a lot of discussion of those who

01:22:21

Claim that Their same -sex attraction has not been in any way Altered and that is the whole concept of of identity that this is this is how

01:22:32

God made me and This is the way I'm going to stay there is no way of changing this and that is something

01:22:41

I have heard a lot of discussion of There are many who would say well

01:22:48

Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified you were justified and in the

01:22:55

Spirit of God and the Lord Jesus Christ and so There are some who take a rather bold position that if you're truly born again

01:23:03

Then all those desires will be done away with Many others would say it that there would be a small number of people that that possibly

01:23:11

Do continue to experience that kind of Attraction and should seek to mortify those things and Then there are others who would say if that's your your natural that that's where the orientation stuff comes in.

01:23:28

That's your natural orientation then that's how God's made you and then therefore you should live in light of some sort of Modified understanding of God's law or whatever else it might be so I have heard

01:23:40

That it is part of the conversation going on amongst a lot of folks about the revoice conference and and I think there was a little bit more of it in in the past revoice just sort of Stirred things up for a while and until there's another revoice or another conference of similar

01:24:01

You know, that'll probably end up dying down for a while It seems to go in cycles as far as I know

01:24:07

But yeah, there there there have been there has been a fair amount of discussion of that. And yeah, clearly how you view the

01:24:14

Lordship salvation issue and whether you believe in a radical transformation and regeneration or just sort of a realignment of Priorities type view that's gonna make a big difference as to how you understand it

01:24:30

Sounds sounds like the aliens are invading up there Monty. Really? Yes Yeah, we've got sounds like sounds like someone's a buzzsaw trying to go through your line

01:24:48

Alrighty, thank you money. You're you're breaking up on that. All right. Thank you. All right It did sound a little bit like Yeah, something like that maybe somebody stole another plane up there and is flying around I mean that was that was wild oh great

01:25:07

Great Alright Jack in Kentucky. We're running out of time. So we'll try to keep it brief

01:25:13

All right, I'll do my best Just real quick I know you said keep it brief But I just need to thank you for what a blessing your ministry has been to me

01:25:21

Especially with starting my first year of college soon Be good you grounded me in a way that Other people just couldn't so well,

01:25:29

I'll tell you I don't it almost doesn't matter what college you're going to you're going to be challenged in in many many different ways

01:25:38

So we'll hope that that foundation is good and firm Well, my question regards a specific

01:25:45

Hebrew scholar by the name of Michael Heiser. Are you familiar with him? Yes, I am I was wondering

01:25:51

What you thought of what he teaches and if you believe that what he teaches is grounds for exclusion from the faith grounds for exclusion from the faith

01:26:03

But he breaks one of the primary issues. Yeah No, I am

01:26:08

If you if you look up Dr. Heiser's name at a omen org. You'll find at least a couple of Articles fairly lengthy articles primarily looking at the concept of the

01:26:21

Council of the gods and especially Psalm 82 and I very firmly disagree with the

01:26:29

Council the gods Theology that he that he presents. I don't think that that is a

01:26:38

Definitional issue in the sense of excluding somebody from the kingdom of heaven. I know other people that agree with him in general about certain certain aspects of The nature of Jewish monotheism or something along those lines and I I cannot see how that would

01:26:59

How anyone could consistently say, oh that means you're you're not a Christian it's it's not it's not a specific gospel issue

01:27:07

And obviously he would would claim to be a Trinitarian and a monotheist

01:27:14

I would just find that the applications that he makes are

01:27:20

Problematic and and difficult and I I don't agree with them and I've warned against them for a long time but we don't make it a big, you know big focus and I I certainly would struggle to identify such a person as a

01:27:35

False teacher in the sense of identifying a false teacher as a person who does not themselves possess eternal life

01:27:43

That's the real the real big issue. So I guess my answer would be no, I don't think that it's excludes someone in that way not that I have the authority to determine such things but on the personal level in looking at the priority of Truths and so on so forth.

01:28:00

I don't think your interpretation of the nature of Old Testament Monotheism in particular passages is definitional of your of your faith in Christ.

01:28:10

So I would not Exclude dr. Heiser from the from the fellowship.

01:28:15

No, I mean he couldn't he couldn't teach at my church We ain't inviting him in to do a seminar at my church, but That's a that's different thing.

01:28:26

I think the elders of a church have responsibility to you know Oversee what is being taught?

01:28:33

In that context, so that's that's different thing. I Those are other issues and I think my

01:28:43

Presbyterian brothers are are Saved and we have differences on on even more fundamental issues in regards to baptism.

01:28:50

So there you go All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I am NOT gonna waste any more a bit

01:28:56

You have a wonderful rest of your day and God bless you. All right. Thanks a lot. Jack. God bless. Bye. Bye All right, let's wrap it up by talking to Nathan hi

01:29:05

Nathan Hello, dr. White. Can you hear me? Yes, sir All right, so I promise

01:29:12

I keep this brief Are are are you aware of the the so -called

01:29:17

Christian group World Mission Society Church of God? That's ringing a very faint bell

01:29:26

But I've certainly don't claim any expertise Okay. Well, it's

01:29:32

As more curious it kind of related my question I run into their I guess you could say missionaries on my college campus quite often.

01:29:40

They're often not evangelizing and their their beliefs are not difficult to to refute from the scripture, but Every time

01:29:52

I've talked to them, they always get to a point where they basically pull a trump card and say well You can't understand

01:29:59

These scriptures that we're trying to tell you without the Spirit of God, right and and they'll point to you know

01:30:06

Jesus quoting Isaiah and Matthew 13 and Paul saying, you know, the natural man doesn't know what the revelation where the

01:30:15

Angel brings a scroll and says who's worried to open it. And so they basically always just tell me well you need our

01:30:22

Basically, they're their founder on song Hong. You need his spirit to understand and What when

01:30:29

I find myself arguing against that idea it It seems similar to what

01:30:36

I would say as a reformed person about the depravity of man and the nature of scripture

01:30:41

I mean, is that not similar to what a reformed person would say in not being able to understand the things of God well

01:30:50

Except that it would the the there's a major difference and that is Romans chapter 1 says

01:30:56

You have natural revelation and then you have special revelation natural revelation man is suppressing and is in rebellion against God and that is the reason for the necessity of spiritual regeneration and the role of the

01:31:10

Holy Spirit not only Not so much to understand What scripture says but to desire to obey?

01:31:19

What scripture says that's that's a difference So if someone's position is so incoherent that they say well until you believe us and you'll never understand it

01:31:27

That's that's not what we're saying. We're not saying I can explain exactly what scripture teaches to someone

01:31:33

I've debated atheists that had a better understanding of what the Bible taught Then a lot of Christians that I knew they just didn't believe it and would not submit to it

01:31:43

So there the reality that there is a spiritual element To man that needs to be freed from rebellion to be able to be obedient to scripture

01:31:54

It's not the same thing as saying I can twist scripture into any pretzel I want and until you agree with me and allegedly as a result receive some spirit or something like that Then you can't you can't argue against me.

01:32:09

That's That's not what we are saying to the natural man. We're not saying

01:32:15

That the claims of Christ are unknowable That that monotheism is unknowable or even the

01:32:21

Trinity is unknowable. I know I know atheists that can accurately define the doctrine the

01:32:28

Trinity just fine, but they will not bow in adoration They will not see the beauty of Christian truth.

01:32:34

They will not make application in their lives They will not find contentment in God's truth. These are the spiritual aspects that are required.

01:32:41

It's not that That there is some statement that says well, you know, the scripture is just gobbledygook until you

01:32:50

Until you get born again If that were the case we would why would we be preaching the gospel in the first place?

01:32:57

Why would we be even why would Paul be going out into the into the marketplace and and proclaiming the gospel and reasoning with people?

01:33:03

or anything else No, we recognize that that the primary issue is is man's rebellion

01:33:11

And what's the source of quelling that rebellion? and That does not mean that what we are doing with the scriptures is somehow

01:33:21

Not what they actually meant to the original audience, I mean when I preach

01:33:27

I'm Intent upon explaining to people what do these words mean their original context?

01:33:32

What the original author intended mean what the original audience understood them to mean? But I recognize

01:33:38

I can get all of that just right and until there is a spiritual change That a person will not embrace those things.

01:33:46

That sounds like what they're saying is well, you just can't Understand these things that we we embrace all sorts of contradiction and inherent error

01:33:57

But then just once you get the spirit that's gonna make all that go away That's that's not what we're saying and at all

01:34:03

Yeah, it's sort of like it's sort of like, you know, the Mormons and every cult group will have their quote -unquote

01:34:09

You know spiritual aspect to try to get around obvious contradictions and and that's why

01:34:15

I I'm very hesitant to utilize the term mystery as quickly as some people are

01:34:21

I think God's truth is is is understandable It's just not going to be it's not going to be applied by the natural man because of the rebellion that continues to exist in his heart

01:34:33

Okay Okay, that that makes a lot of sense. It was just and I guess

01:34:38

I was just trying to respond maybe not as clearly as I should have but it just seemed in my responses if I was

01:34:47

Also, like I was arguing it kind of reformed understanding. So Yeah Having having an intersection with a small element of reformed truth or biblical truth is not the same thing as having an intersection with And this is something

01:35:03

I've been saying for a long time now it is it is the wholeness of biblical truth It is the the beauty of all the strands of divine revelation that come together none of the cults can ever have that because the only way that they can they can exist is by doing away with that unity and emphasizing only certain aspects of things and so it'll never be in balance.

01:35:23

It'll never be in balance and That's that's where the problem is. So thanks

01:35:28

Nathan Alright, God bless. Thank you very much Alrighty a little over there, but that's okay hopefully got through to some good calls and hopefully that information was useful to the three

01:35:43

Mormons and to all of you who are still experiencing a certain level of of envy

01:35:52

I just want you to know that Even at the debates. I'm gonna be keeping a very close eye

01:36:00

Don't even bother trying You will you will draw back a bloody stump as my mom used to say at the dinner table

01:36:07

If you if you try to take this and oh, yes. Mm -hmm. Yeah, it does.

01:36:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Italian goatskin. I Can almost hear the goat now.

01:36:18

Oh, yeah, it's bleeding right now. Yes. Yes Ah Everything I just said

01:36:28

I just ruined it all huh? He's weird. He's a weird. Oh, there it goes. Yeah. All right

01:36:33

Well, Lord, well, and we'll be back on I think it's supposed to be Thursday. We'll see if that all works out