The Conservative Baptist Network With Brad Jurkovich

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. Two quick announcements before we get started with this exciting podcast today.

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Number one, I will be at the Shepherds Conference first week of March, Sun Valley, California, Grace Community Church.

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If you are gonna be there, please let me know. It's mutually beneficial for both of us. When I can encourage you, you can encourage me.

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If you're a listener, I'd love to meet you. Secondly, I am just so grateful to all my supporters in prayer and those who support me financially on Patreon.

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I've mentioned this for the last month. This is the last call. Today is the last call for this. If you are a

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Patreon of mine, $5 a month or more, you will receive a book, if you ask me and send me your address, by Mark David Hall called

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Did America Have a Christian Founding? And I really enjoyed this book. I think it's one of the best books on that subject.

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And it's written at a pop level, so it's easily accessible. Please let me know. Patreon link is in the info section.

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I'm just overwhelmed by some of you. I actually received a check over the weekend from someone who's a supporter, completely unsolicited, just someone who wanted to bless me.

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And it actually brought me to tears that God would use this individual to help me with some of the work that I'm doing.

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Your prayers are very much appreciated. As many of you know who listen regularly, full -time school, part -time teaching,

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I run a business, serve at my church, and then try to do this. And some people wonder how I do it, and I'm not sure exactly, to be honest.

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It just happens. Someone on Twitter was complaining, saying, they were trying to give me advice,

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I guess, but they were complaining that I post too much on political things on Twitter, and giving me some advice that I shouldn't be known for that.

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I told them, this is just the tip of the iceberg, man. This is such a small part of my life. But yeah,

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I will try to post at least once a day. And it takes me just a few minutes to type that out, but they're not seeing the business

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I run and my interactions at educational institution that I'm part of, and my church, and so forth, and so on.

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And so just bear that in mind. I started the Twitter over a year ago specifically because I wanted to fight the social justice battle that I saw raging and starting to rage.

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It's raging now, and especially in the church and in evangelicalism. And I don't regret it one bit.

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I think Twitter's definitely farther to the left than any of the other social media platforms that I have been on, but I've seen the benefit.

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And you guys are just such a blessing to me. So I just wanted to say that, and thank you for your prayers. I covet them.

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Please keep praying for me that I would be focused, have the energy mentally to do everything that I need to do, and bring some of this to you.

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And so anyway, look forward to seeing some of you at the Shepherds Conference, for sure. I'm gonna be doing some reporting today.

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I'm playing the reporter role. Sometimes I'm the commentator, sometimes I'm the reporter. Sometimes we open our

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Bibles, we do a Bible study. You know that this program has a lot of different facets to it. And today I'm the reporter and specifically the interviewer.

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But before we get to this interview, and by the way, the interview, this is an exciting interview. This is with a pastor,

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Brad Jerkovich, who is the founder, if you will, of the

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Conservative Baptist Network, which has received a lot of attention, even from Albert Mueller. I'll show you that over the weekend.

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And so I just went to him, I just wanna get his story. What's going on, why'd you start this? So look forward to that.

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I'm gonna bring you through a few things, though, to set this up, because I want you to be aware of the climate over the last few weeks, especially the last week in particular, that's essentially led to this moment that we're in right now.

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So let's start with February 5th. Baptist Press, which is the official arm of the

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Southern Baptist Convention for Journalism, puts out Q &A with the 2019 Resolutions Committee about Resolution 9. Resolution 9 endorsed on a certain level critical race theory intersectionality as analytical tools.

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And the article is all about their motive. Hey, we had good motives, we had good motives. We're concerned, too, just as you are, conservatives, but we had good motives.

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And of course, this is a little bit disingenuous, because at the time, they had the opportunity to correct these things. Tom Askell offered an amendment which would have said these ideas come from Marxist godless atheism.

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It was rejected as a hostile amendment from Curtis Woods, the chairman, and of course, I pointed out a few podcasts ago that Keith Whitfield, who is a member of the

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Resolutions Committee, over the next week on Twitter, you could see he was endorsing people who were saying things like, it's the wisdom of Solomon.

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That's what the Resolutions Committee had, wisdom of Solomon, and all sorts of things endorsing it. So they're not calling to rescind it.

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They're not saying that we were wrong. They're just saying our motives are good. We didn't intend any harm. This is concerning.

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This is really concerning, because Al Mohler then takes this, retweets it, and says this is the right tone, and we need to have a conversation.

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Now, Al Mohler says this over and over. We need to have a conversation in the Southern Baptist Convention, and over and over, when there's opportunities, it doesn't happen, or those who are trying to bring the conversation up, the topic up, they are shut down, and Al Mohler doesn't say anything when that happens, and I think people are starting to realize this.

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Are you really after a conversation? Because every time, you haven't had the conversation. You will talk about these ideas in the abstract, but you won't actually talk about the real problem in your own denomination and your own seminary, and then when the topic's brought up, it's just the people who wanna have the conversation are shouted down as not wanting to have a conversation, and I've gone through proper channels.

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I know many others have gone through proper channels. People are starting to get sick of this, because they hear things, they start asking questions, and they get the runaround, whether it's

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Danny Akin or Adam Greenway or Al Mohler, whoever. They get the runaround, and then nothing gets accomplished.

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It's just, trust us, nothing to see here, and this isn't gonna work for long, guys. This is not gonna work.

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Southern Baptists want straight answers, just like members of other denominations that are experiencing the same issue, so we're not going through ancient history.

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This is within the last two weeks, essentially. This is another controversy. Hosanna Wong is the teaching pastor at Eastlake Church, one of the teaching pastors in the

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San Diego area. She is going to be doing spoken word, performing at the Southern Baptist Convention's pastor's conference.

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Dwight McKissick says, well, it's not the lead pastor, it's just the teaching pastor. Okay, Sam Bunnell, this is the voice of,

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I think, the more working class, those who haven't been in this debate, but who are now starting to see things.

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Listen to this, Sam Bunnell. Not a guy with a big platform. The last thing I wanna do is sow discord in the body of Christ.

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Hear that intention. That's what I have, that's what Tom Askle has, that's what everyone who's fighting this has. I don't wanna sow discord.

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I've seen, look, I've seen guys get shot. I mean, he's not saying this, but I'm saying, he's probably looking around.

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I see guys get shot for supposedly sowing discord when they're bringing up legitimate objections.

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He said, and that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to sow discord. I do not believe I'm doing so, though. This is what he says.

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I must, however, question Pastor David Oot, who is the, he's the guy organizing this conference, which, by the way,

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I should say this, is Pastor David Oot, and I haven't done a lot of research on it, apparently very pro sort of same -sex attracted

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Christianity, soft peddling of LGBTQ stuff guy. So you can look that up yourself, but he's saying,

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I'm questioning this guy for including Hosanna Wong.

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This doesn't represent the SBC. We will fight for rights. And of course, Beth Moore says nothing, you know, this is the, hey, look, this is a public service announcement on the

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Lord's Day. There are no women trying to take over SBC pulpits, least of all me, really, because she's preached at SBC pulpits on Sunday service.

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That's Beth Moore. And she's then blames the devil for trying to rip apart the SBC, and this is all a distraction, and yeah, that's where we're at.

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Then you have ERLC issues. We're gonna come back to the pastors conference in a minute, but Tom Buck put this out on February 15th.

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Look, look, here's a woman who has written for the ERLC. Here's one of the stories.

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I put their brand good news to abuse survivors. Last year, September 27th, 2019, Susan Condon. Susan Condon apparently wants to amplify the voices, they deserve to be amplified, of a few different speakers.

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Of course, Beth Moore's on there, Rachel Denhollander, Hosanna Wong, who we just talked about. But among these people are

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Jen Hatmaker, and listen to this, Rachel Held Evans. Rachel Held Evans, so heretics, heretics.

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And Tom Buck says, this is a good example of why some of the SBC form the Conservative Baptist Network and don't view the SBC at large to be conservative anymore.

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Members of the ERLC council think we should listen and amplify some women who are false teachers. And there will be silence about this from SBC leaders.

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Members of, a member of the ERLC council, Susan Condon. And of course, I think she deleted her Twitter right after this, but not a peep from Al Mohler or anyone who could actually do anything about this.

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That's the concern. How come you're so quick to go after conservatives and yet when you have power to do something about actual heresy, not a peep, not a peep.

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Well, let's go back to the conference here for a minute. If you think the SBC's issues are social justice and social justice alone, you would be wrong because Pastor David Hughes, Church of the

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Glades, Coral Springs, Florida is a speaker at the SBC Pastors Conference. And here's what his church was handing out.

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He posted this on Twitter, Victorious Secret. That was not clever, Victorious Secret with the

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Victorious Secret I kind of logo there. And you know, we're gonna use this.

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I guess it's a advertisement for some kind of a relationship sermon series or something.

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And he's got the, here's another one. Sermon on the world's largest strip club or series. I don't know which.

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Come get naked. Here's the tagline. This is from his website. With 5 ,000 of your closest friends without taking off your clothes.

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Wow. The Bible's Game of Thrones. And of course, Game of Thrones is pornographic.

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Features abuse of women, violent sex, rape. Of course, your LC, Rachel Den Hollander, who very concerned about women being abused.

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They don't ever speak out against Martin Luther King Jr. He's a hero to them. And his legacy, at least they don't say, hey look, this guy was, there's some issues here with abusing women.

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And they, nothing to say about David Hughes and using Game of Thrones. Sitting on a

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Game of Thrones, you should see the picture and the props. I'll show you in a minute. But this church spends a lot of money on dancing, on props,

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I mean, thousands of dollars that could be going to, I mean, I'm assuming here because it looks very elaborate.

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But thousands of dollars that could be going to things like the co -operative program. Not very social justice, if you think about it.

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Just a side comment here. I guess I'm bleeding into commentary. But if we're supposed to be helping the poor and the oppressed,

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I don't know, spending all that kind of money on, I mean, there's things to spend money on. But you would think a Game of Thrones set wouldn't be one of those things.

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And hiring dancers to perform sexually provocative acts wouldn't be, which is what they've been doing as well.

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So anyway, here's some more examples of that. Here's some pictures of the sexually provocative dancing happening at the church.

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Here's some of the lyrics that have been sung from the church. So baby, I hope that you came prepared. I run a tight ship, so beware.

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I'm like the ringleader, I call the shots. I'm like a firecracker, I make it hot. Here's another one. I know many women wanna be in my life.

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Why can't every woman end up being my wife? And apparently another,

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Jared Longshort posted these. Apparently another, I guess, satanic song, and it's called

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Bad Guy. And I am not gonna look up the lyrics. It says warning, but you can see there's skeletons dancing, which is, yeah, in church.

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It's a church set, interesting. And there's the picture of him sitting on a Game of Thrones throne.

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So man, man, this is happening in Southern Baptist Convention Church.

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And here's what Tom Askell says, and this is very insightful. He put out this article this morning. You can find it in the info section. Says just a few things.

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He goes, last fall, South Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary, President Nanny Aiken hired Karen Swallow Pryor to teach at the seminary and its associated college.

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Dr. Pryor is the endorser of the Revoice Conference, a conference that supports, encourages gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same -sex attracted

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Christians. As you can imagine, the announcement, the announced hire raised many questions by Southern Baptists who will be asked to pay her salary.

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Last year, Matt Hall, provost of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, had some questionable teachings brought to light in the seminary's website, and in video recordings, the most notorious of the videos was the one in Dr.

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Hall calls himself a racist, declares that he will struggle with white supremacy until he dies. Again, many Southern Baptists raised many questions about his teachings and confession.

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June of 2019, you have Resolution 9, and then this Pastors Conference fiasco.

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And he says, here's what's happening. Do something questionable. So here's the pattern. So like hire a

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Revoice endorser, Resolution CRTI, Critical Race Theory Intersectionality, recommend those things, promote self -proclaimed racist as a provost.

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Do something like that. You get questioned on it by rank -and -file Southern Baptists, and this is absolutely true. And then deflect, defend, dismiss, obfuscate, basically do everything but give a straightforward answer to legitimate questions posed by cooperating

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Southern Baptists. This nails it on the head. Tom Askell just nailed it. That is exactly what's going on, and that's why this network, the

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Conservative Southern Baptist Network, was formed. And that is what's going to bring us to the

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Conservative Baptist Network. We are excited to announce today the Conservative Baptist Network. Visit our website, and the website's there.

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That is also in the info section if you wanna find out more about it. And here's the reaction. Just as Tom Askell said, here's

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Dean Insera, who I guess is an author. He's got kind of a big church following.

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Looks like he's a pastor at City Church Tallahassee. Baptist Network, this

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Baptist Network thing, is what he says, is about love of Trump and being butt hurt. Yeah, that's what the pastor should say, right?

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Butt hurt about Paige Patterson. Don't be fooled. Inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture then do video of right -wing political talk that has nothing to do with Scripture an unbeliever could agree with.

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And of course, who jumps in the Twitter thread? Beth Moore. Uh -oh, you're going there, are you? I'm going with you.

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So, and he says, we already have, you know, we have a Baptist Faith and Message. That is the conservative

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Baptist Network. You know, this thing is just about Trump and it's about Paige Patterson. Yeah, except that you don't find those things on the website.

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Here's another reaction. This is from Dwight McKissick and Michael F. Byrd, who

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I guess, academic dean and lecturer, looks like in Melbourne, Australia.

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So I don't think he, I don't even know if the guy's Southern Baptist, but a lot of Twitter followers and they got, you know, Twitter traction.

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But he's saying that, yeah, they're racists, essentially. They're driven by racism, the people putting together this network.

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Then there's this ignorant tweet from Dwight McKissick. It's got so many layers of ignorance, I could spend a whole episode on it.

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I won't. But he essentially compares this conservative Baptist Network to the Confederate Army. They're just opposed to social justice for the slaves.

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And now they're opposed to social justice for blacks and no self -respecting black pastor would join the group. And look, if you go to the website, here's the funny part.

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Immediately, you will be confronted with a black woman of color endorsing the group.

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And I know there's other black people who endorse the group. And you know, it just, it drives me nuts that some of these social justice guys just wanna assume that every minority or black person or Hispanic person or whatever, woman, is, you know, they're just on the same level with them.

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Social justice all the way. And if you're not a real black person, if you endorse this, you're not self -respecting.

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That is, that's racist. That's condescending. He's calling, listen to this, he's calling the black woman who is on the front page of the conservative

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Baptist Network. He's saying she's not a self -respecting black person. I'm sorry, Dwight McKissick. You don't get to call other people racist when you are going to say that about a black woman and the other black people and all sorts of various shades of color people who have different melanin counts, but who love

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God and love his word and endorse this organization. You don't get to name call them and have people take you seriously unless they're super woke.

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This does not play well anymore. And this is the kind of a bully tactic that they are running on the super far left.

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Here's another tactic, XBC Voices. I don't think I'll join Brad Jerkovich's secret group with undisclosed funding.

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Get the tinfoil hats out, right? Secret group with undisclosed funding. I'll ask Brad about that when we do our interview.

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Albert Moeller, the real network of Southern Baptists is called the Southern Baptist Convention. This is the most important one, guys. He says that he's insinuating this conservative

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Baptist Network, and they're fake, they're fake. He doesn't do this about any other network. You have regional networks, you have ministry networks.

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Yeah, they're fine, but as soon as you have a conservative Baptist Network, that's not real. The real network of Southern Baptists, that's the

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Southern Baptist Convention. This was a very telling response by Rod Martin, who's part of the conservative

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Baptist Network. With great respect, Al, a lot of us are noticing the difference between your response time to the launch of the group, so the conservative

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Baptist group, who they all affirm the Baptist Faith Message 2000, and your response time to a woman teaching pastor at the

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SBC Pastors Conference. Interesting, that, but not at all encouraging. This is true.

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Al Moeller's not responding to obvious things. He's been asked for a long time, respond to this. Help us, this is what's going on.

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Not lifting a finger, but then when a conservative does something, this is true to form. This is what I pointed out to you last week in my video about Al Moeller.

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I said, this is his habit. Every time, just about, conservatives want to have a conversation, he bashes them, or he's silent, but if a liberal is attacked, he'll defend them.

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This has happened over and over and over. Go watch my video on that if you're curious about what

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I'm talking about. This is the article that Dr.

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Albert Moeller put out this morning, the Convictional Cooperation of the Southern Baptist Convention, and here's the key part, I think, is what he said.

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"'Something interesting has happened among us. "'The generation of the conservative resurgence "'had no choice but to learn how to talk "'about theology, doctrine, hard questions, "'and unavoidable issues.

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"'Somewhere over the course of the last couple decades, "'Southern Baptists have lost our ability "'to talk respectfully and convictionally. "'We had better recover that ability fast, "'or we will destroy the very foundation of cooperation "'that has brought us into this moment.'"

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What is he insinuating? What is he insinuating, given the timing of this, when he put it out? Conservative Baptist Network, you're not learning to talk about theology, doctrine, and hard questions.

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You're not talking. This is a disgusting thing to say, and I think he's hiding an ambiguity a little here.

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He does that with a lot of his articles. Russell Moore's even worse at this, where they put out something, and you know, it's like,

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I pointed this out with Russell Moore a few weeks ago. He had this whole article. It was basically, a big part of it was against Trump, but he didn't say

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Trump's name, and you know, Al Mohler's putting this out right after what happened on Saturday with his tweet and the

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Conservative Baptist Network. You make the call on what he's talking about here, but that's what it sounds like to me, and then, of course, this is interesting because the wagons are circled.

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Danny Akin, superb article by Al Mohler. Jason Allen, I'm thankful for this helpful, timely article.

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Adam Greenway, genuinely helpful and timely word. I mean, I'm sure they genuinely feel that way, but it's coordinated.

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It's like they all immediately endorse this article. It's circling the wagons is what

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I call it. All right, so that's the climate that we are in right now, and I decided, why not just go to the horse's mouth?

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I am pleased to have with me today a very special guest, Brad Djerkovic. Brad, thank you so much for joining me.

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It's actually Pastor Brad Djerkovic, and, well, you've been the talk of the town lately, a little bit at least, with your new network, the

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Conservative Baptist Network. You are, is it director? Is that your title? Founder?

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Basically spokesman right now, so you bet, man. We're just part of a team, and it's really been a lot of fun, so you bet.

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Awesome, so what made you decide to start this network? You know, John, I pastor a church, and we've been engaged with the

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SBC for many, many years. I love the SBC. It's been a part of my life growing up, even though I had a lot of dysfunction growing up with family and three different dads and so forth, but God was very gracious to me.

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I heard the gospel at an early age, but they were in Baptist churches, and so even though I would move and transition and do this and that, ended up mostly my growing up years in Southern California, but Southern Baptist churches were a part of my life, and I was challenged to follow

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Christ and stand for Him, and it's a lot of fun, but, you know, and I went to Southern Baptist seminaries.

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I've been, it's just been a part of my life, and so that's why I've always used the term, not always, but I like to use the term

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Southern Baptist family, because it really is family. I mean, we're brothers and sisters in Christ. We're connecting together to reach the world for Jesus, but as a pastor, you know, you're shepherding this flock.

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You're leading your staff team. You're responsible on the theology side. You're responsible on the stewardship side, and you have to ask and answer these questions.

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Who are we supporting? What are we partnering with? What is this about? Well, as a First Baptist Church of Bossier City, we're a part of the

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Southern Baptist Convention, and so there have been these concerning characteristics that I've talked about that not only

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I have seen, but members in my church, and then as I've talked to other pastors around the country, especially,

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John, the last three to five years. You know, I was on the Resolutions Committee. I served on the Committee on Order of Business, so I've seen a lot from the inside.

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I've got a lot of friends that are involved, and that's cool. I love it, but I've also seen up close these concerns, and then

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I've talked to other pastors around the nation, and you just get to this point where you go, okay, I know that I've voiced concerns, and the needle's not moved.

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I know that other pastors have voiced concerns, and certain things haven't happened or whatever.

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What do you do? You know, and so as a pastor and as a minister, you sit there and go, what does this look like to stay engaged with the

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Southern Baptist Convention? And so when we started talking to these other pastors, we said, what are we gonna do?

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And they said, well, why don't we at least get together? And so honestly, John, that's what happened. It was a group of 20, 25 pastors that got together.

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We got together and just said, where are we at? And the very first meeting was just, hey, man, this is what, this is my relationship with the

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Southern Baptist Convention. This is your relationship with the Southern Baptist Convention. Where are we at? Do we share the same concerns? And we did, and we were both burdened, but also believing

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God for the best. In other words, I don't believe everybody's bad in the SBC or that we're, you know, it's totally bad, but clearly,

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John, just like the conservative resurgence in the late seventies, early eighties, they saw concerns and felt like they had to take a stand.

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So we're pastors, we're pastors in our churches, and we're saying, you know what? We see concerns. What does that mean for us?

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And it would be easier to walk away. I mean, no question about it. We're pastor in church. We don't have time to be engaged 24 seven and all this kind of stuff.

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However, all of us share a love for this Southern Baptist family. We believe in what

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God has done in the past of the SBC and what he can do in the future. But clearly we need to have some honest conversations and we wanted to see something form that would give pastors and churches some confidence to say, hey, they're standing for some things that I value.

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I can join that, not leave the SBC. And prayerfully, we can make a difference in and through the

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SBC, but through an avenue called this Conservative Baptist Network. I know that's a lot. I just want to give you a little bit of context.

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No, that's perfect. Thank you for sharing all that. Now you mentioned concerns and what you just said. And I'm familiar with this because I've talked about it so many times.

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But there seem to be some people out there who are wondering what concerns are you talking about? We have the

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Baptist faith and message. Doesn't that kind of, we all unite around that. We are conservatives as Southern Baptists.

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What are you talking about that Southern Baptists are drifting into liberalism or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but can you flesh that out for me a little bit?

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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's multiple layers. Let's talk about seminary for a moment, okay? I went to Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in 1995 did my bachelor's in the college there, my master's, graduated in 2000.

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When I got there, here was a seminary that would have been termed very liberal in the 80s and early 90s.

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They get a new president, you start to see this conservative, this swing of just, here's what we're going to believe and this is what we're going to stand.

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That seminary began, first of all, it swelled in numbers. God blessed it incredibly. I mean, you talk about this term revival,

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John, we saw that at Southeastern Seminary in the mid to late 90s. It was awesome.

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And a ton of students started coming and standing and I traveled all over North Carolina and Virginia and South Carolina and the

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East Coast preaching and I saw what God was doing as pastors were getting stronger in the word of God, unashamed with the word of God.

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This is what we're going to believe. This is who we are. And God began to honor that, okay? But so you can say all you want, we sign this, we stand for that.

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Here's the Baptist faith, the message. But when you start to see things affected, okay? Like an ideology, like critical race theory, okay?

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And it can be on any seminary level, but the seminary is important because they're training pastors.

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So if you're entertaining something that you go, wait a minute, I'm not even sure that's, you know, compliments the gospel at all.

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I mean, we don't even need this, but when you see it affecting your seminaries and setting a cultural environment that you have to accept this or you're not this or that, then

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I think you have to ask questions and go, well, wait a minute, these seminaries are putting out our pastors and if pastors embrace that as seminary, they're going to teach that at their churches.

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That's a massive influence. So pastors like myself and all across the country are going, theology matters.

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And if we really, you know, when you look at 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 and you're sitting there going, we don't need anything else. We don't need the wisdom of the world, okay?

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Conflicting or undermining or countering the gospel message. So theology is important in how we apply it and what we're doing with that.

27:17

So we're concerned on the theology level. Then you start to see things and you didn't see it early on, but for the last five years, this, you know, this idea that, you know, to be engaged in religious liberty or freedom or voting your conscience, pastors value that, right?

27:37

As Baptists, we have fought for liberty and freedom of conscience and all these things.

27:43

Well, when you start hearing things like, well, you know, we're a kingdom, we're of the kingdom of God.

27:50

And so that's gotta be above all. Well, of course we're kingdom citizens, but we also live in a country that godly people have fleshed out these principles and said, wait a minute, we can have freedom and liberty.

28:02

It's okay to stand for those things in America. So when we talk about being engaged or some have said, well, what about patriotism?

28:10

What does that mean? Patriotism is not about a candidate. It's about being engaged to stand for liberty and freedom and pastors saying

28:18

I can vote my conscience and I don't have to be demeaned for that because I stand for liberty and freedom.

28:24

But there has been a push in Southern Baptist life, John, that has somehow minimized that or dismissed it or been even derisive towards it, derisive towards it, that if you're involved about that or you wanna stand for liberty and freedom, that you're somehow putting

28:42

Jesus and kingdom citizen to the side and you're elevating your engagement with America or whatever that is.

28:48

And that's just not true. And a lot of pastors that they're going, wait a minute, man, we either stand for these things or we're gonna lose it all.

28:54

And I don't think that's good stewardship either. So I'm just saying there are concerns there affecting the

29:00

SBC that we're going, we need to push back on some of this because this isn't healthy. It's not healthy for our denomination in our view.

29:08

So yeah. That's excellent. I wanted to get a little more specific into the weeds a little just because I know some pastors who are hearing this may be hearing it now for the first time.

29:17

They're not regular listeners of what I talk about. And you and I, we know, we understand each other right now. But for those who,

29:24

I'll give you an example. I just got an email. I get these kinds of emails fairly regularly. An email, you probably get them as well.

29:31

It was two days ago. Southeastern grad, just like you and me, been kind of out of the loop for a few years on the politics of the

29:40

SBC. Because you know what? He's busy pastoring a church. He doesn't have time to keep up with what the seminaries are teaching and what's being spoken at conferences.

29:47

And he saw your network. And somehow he, I guess, I don't know, he found one of my social media platforms and just sent me a message.

29:58

It said, what's going on? He said, I don't even know what critical race theory is.

30:05

But I am concerned that something has changed. Something doesn't feel right. But could you explain this for me?

30:13

What's happening? And so I want you to just talk to that person for a moment. And explain with their

30:18

Bibles that they have, that they preach from every Sunday, what is going on in Southern Baptist life that contradicts what we see in the written word of God or the foundational beliefs that we, you know, the hermeneutical ideas that we use to approach the word of God.

30:33

Well, I would tell you this. When you're walking, I would say this to any pastor, I agree. I mean, I think some of these terms and ideas have become to, have come to influence our

30:43

SBC. I don't think we're overrun with it. But I think they've had a loud megaphone over the last three to five years.

30:50

And so it seems like it's pervasive, but clearly it's an issue and it's becoming an issue.

30:57

And pastors have to stop and think about, that's what I mean, John, about what is being taught? What is being embraced?

31:03

Those seminaries are important and we value them. I love my time at seminary. I really did.

31:08

I enjoyed studying and debating and getting into the word of God and, you know, getting prepared for that.

31:14

So these pastors are busy. But when you talk about ideas, just like 1 Corinthians, I'm telling you, when

31:19

Paul says, we do not need the wisdom of the world. We have the gospel. It is sufficient. This is what this means.

31:26

Well, we've got to stand for that. So when you hear ideas that say, the starting point for gospel conversation or building bridges with your community, with the starting point is your skin color, then that is very antithetical to the gospel message because the gospel,

31:45

Jesus came to die for the sins of the world. We're all destined for hell apart from the saving grace of the

31:51

Lord Jesus Christ. But if your lens, if your starting point is color and it's driving everything you see and do, then you're automatically dividing when

32:02

Jesus Christ unifies us. And Jesus Christ sets us free from our sin and our past and we can have a future with him.

32:11

And so rather than having this culture where everybody's a victim, Jesus Christ calls us to grace and faith and hope and victory.

32:21

But I'm telling you, you now have this cultural environment right now in Southern Baptist life that if you even question these things, then you can be labeled a racist.

32:31

If you even push back on it and say, well, wait a minute, if Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 that the gospel is

32:38

Jesus Christ and him crucified, then why is our starting point race on everything or skin color on everything?

32:44

I'm just saying in practical terms. Also, when you start saying that power structures are so systemic and your very position, your very color affirms or denies or suppresses other people, that's just a very unhealthy grid to look at life and certainly for church.

33:06

Goodness gracious, if that's how you're going to perceive these things, how can you walk in unity in your church? How can you have that gospel message to the community in the world?

33:14

So these are ideas. They have big names about them, John, no question about it, intersectionality. But by the way, let me just say, every pastor

33:22

I met with in this last several months, so appreciative of Thomas and founders and the

33:31

Synod documentary. I mean, that was very helpful. And so we're grateful for that explanation.

33:38

I thought that was very well done. And I've had a number of lay people in my church, black and white and different ethnicities, watch that and say,

33:46

Pastor Brad, we are not on the right track. We've got to do something different. So I hope that gives you a little flavor for what we're grappling with.

33:53

That's great, yeah. And I referenced that documentary as well when people asked me what's going on in the

34:00

SPC. And I was like, this documentary can kind of help you. Let's do kind of a short answer here. Just throw out a few ideas that have been promoted in some form, somewhere in the

34:11

SPC. Let's start with liberation theology. Liberation theology, James Cone, Gustavio Gutierrez, if I'm pronouncing that right.

34:20

There's others who promoted this, Daniel Escobar kind of made this evangelical, evangelicalized it in a way.

34:27

And this idea has been promoted at least at one seminary, which is where we graduated from.

34:33

And liberation theology, this is how I understand it, is in a full definition, but where I would say it probably contradicts the scripture is the redemption of systems and structures apart from the particular redemption of Jesus Christ in the gospel.

34:50

So you could have a system that's redeemed without the people in that system who run the system being

34:56

Christians. That is not the gospel of scripture. That's not how we're supposed to engage culture in the

35:02

New Testament. So that's one idea. I mean, do you agree with that? Is that kind of where you're coming from as well?

35:07

What do you think? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. When our network was forming and we started talking about these, these kinds of ideas were coming together in all of our conversations.

35:17

One pastor might have a different slant on that concern or flavor or experience with that, and they would bring that to the table,

35:24

John, but clearly Jesus Christ came to change all of us because all of us are desperately wicked and we need salvation.

35:33

So he came to redeem us. Jesus Christ is returning for us. And so whatever systems our world, it's all fallen anyway, but Christ redeems us, saves us, and it's the hope of the gospel is

35:45

Christ in us and through us, and that needs to be our starting point. It was Paul's starting point.

35:51

He made it clear, and that needs to be ours as well. So anyway, I think anything that undermines that or even, here's another thing for us,

35:59

John, or confuses it, that's one of the big things for us with this network was let's be clear.

36:07

We are tired of the ambiguity or, you know, well, man, we attach the word gospel to 14 other things and it's like, so, you know, that just gets on my nerves.

36:18

And at the end of the day, as pastors, we're called to open the word of God, preach and teach the word of God and call the people of God to follow

36:25

Jesus with all their hearts, all their minds. We don't need confusion right now. We need clarity, and Jesus saves.

36:30

His power is true. And so when we talk about that, these other ideas, you know, debate them in a class, acknowledge them in a class, but for the love, when they start controlling the narrative and the agenda of what we're about, we don't think that's healthy.

36:47

We see it creating confusion, division, it's unnecessary, and that's why the network is saying no.

36:54

We're, you know, even in our list of distinctives, we are rejecting these ideologies, like critical race theory and some of these, because they are not helpful.

37:03

They are creating dysfunction and division in this Southern Baptist family, and we need to be strong to share

37:09

Jesus with the world. We're not gonna be as long as we tolerate this stuff and not only tolerate it, but affirm it.

37:16

And that's very important. So standpoint epistemology, critical race theory, liberation theology, egalitarianism, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

37:25

These are the ideas that you're concerned about that you hear coming from different SBC churches and seminaries, and you're gonna stand against these things, but for, positively, for the word of God.

37:38

And so, yeah, that's good. I love what you're talking about, and I would encourage everyone out there who's in the

37:44

Southern Baptist Convention to join. You can join as a church and, I believe, individually. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, we've got

37:49

Southern Baptist individuals that may say, hey, I wanna join that. I wanna be in the flow with that, and maybe they encourage their pastor or church family or whatever, but it could be very helpful for that, you bet.

37:57

And we've had several individuals do that. What kind of, what are you getting? What's the reaction from people joining, the positive reaction?

38:05

John, it's been crazy. I mean, I think that, clearly, there's a hunger and a desire to take a stand in a positive way in the

38:16

SBC. That's what I'm saying, John. We love this family. God's used it in our lives, collectively, individually, in different ways, and so forth.

38:25

So we're doing this because we love it, okay? We're not interested in just being some, you know, flamethrowing voice out there.

38:33

We're saying, hey, let's take a stand together. Let's be brothers and sisters in Christ, but let's be honest with what the word of God says.

38:41

And that's what we're hearing from folks who are saying, number one, thank you for taking the time and the effort to do it.

38:48

They appreciate the fact that we're trying to, you know, that was one of the things, was it a Calvinist, is it a traditional thing, or whatever, we're saying, wait a minute.

38:55

We've got people that are more reformed in their theology, more traditional in their theology, and this is, we're looking at these bigger, broader issues that, by the way,

39:05

John, are not just affecting the Southern Baptist Convention. They are affecting every denomination out there that wants to take a stand on the word of God, or any group, and so I'm telling you right now, we've gotta come together and say, let's roll for Jesus, because we're gonna lose this denomination if we don't push back on this, because there's clearly, there's unrest out there, they're disgruntled, they're bothered, they're burdened, and they're saying, is there any hope, and is it worth it?

39:29

That's the bigger thing, too, John. Is it worth it to take a stand for this family? I think it is, and this is what

39:34

I share with my church family yesterday, John. I've heard so much positive feedback the last 48 hours, and I share with my church yesterday.

39:42

My priority is to be the best pastor I can be for First Baptist Church of Bossier City. I don't wanna neglect that, but we are part of a broader body of believers called the

39:51

Southern Baptist Family, and I believe it's worth taking a stand for. It may not be, you know,

39:57

I don't know what God's gonna do with it, John, okay? But I think we, I wanna look my congregation in the eye and say,

40:04

Pastor Brad did everything he could to help our denomination stay strong, biblical, and passionate to sharing

40:12

Jesus, the gospel message alone in this world. Does that make sense?

40:17

It does. Pastor Brad, I love what you're saying. One of the things I saw, Dr. L.

40:23

Moeller had put out an article this morning, and it seemed to insinuate that there's a problem in the convention right now in regard to having conversations.

40:32

But what I'm hearing from you is the reason you started this is because you wanna have these conversations, am

40:37

I correct? It's about having a conversation. Correct. But we wanted to be as clear with our distinctives so we could be clear in our conversation.

40:51

Do you see what I'm saying? That's what I mean, John. It's one thing to come together and say, well, we're all conservative.

40:56

Okay, well, define your terms. I mean, what does that mean? You know, if you're just saying I'm conservative, but you're going to adopt, embrace, and affirm these ideologies that are clearly undercutting the gospel, then we're not on the same page.

41:08

So in other words, if someone, and I could give you countless examples of this, if someone came to you and said, Pastor Brad, I'm a conservative.

41:14

I've signed the Baptist Faith and Message 2000. I believe in inerrancy. I just think, you know, when you're studying the

41:20

Bible, it's good to approach it from the lens of the oppressed or some sociopolitical, ethnic, whatever group.

41:28

Because, you know, they're gonna give you a perspective that you don't have with your white privilege. Now, do you hear that? I hear that, and I know a warning bell goes off.

41:35

Do you hear that, and you say, well, that's not exactly conservative. You're undermining the very document that you've signed.

41:40

You're undermining inerrancy and objectivity when you do that. Yeah, that's exactly right.

41:46

And that's what's been tough about these last four or five years. In other words, you're not necessarily finding people say, well,

41:54

I don't believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis 1 through 11 today. You know, I've been hard pressed to hear that argument.

42:01

But you do hear, oh, I believe the word of God. It's just, you need to look at it through this lens. Or here's your starting point over here.

42:07

It's about power and oppression. Well, if that's your lens, that's totally not what Paul said in 1

42:12

Corinthians 2. And he didn't go to Corinth with those kinds of assumptions. And he heard them.

42:18

He knew that that was worldly wisdom. That may be worldly wisdom, but that's not the gospel. And that's not the gospel message.

42:24

And if we're gonna be conservative and be truthful about what Southern Baptists have fought for and stood for and been strong to preserve, by the way, men and women believe this.

42:35

This is not, you know, so it's very important. And so I think that's one of the reasons we said, let's form this network by the grace of God to create some clear communication and dialogue.

42:47

This is what we believe. This is what we believe Southern Baptists have believed. You know, for decades, we fought a strong battle in the early 80s.

42:55

No one likes a battle. No one likes confrontation. We don't. We don't even like it in marriage, John. I mean, when

43:02

Stephanie and I have an issue or whatever, it's hard to come back and say, hey, I was wrong, or maybe I didn't see it this way, or this is what's right.

43:09

So this is a big family. There's thousands and thousands of people involved here. And so we're saying,

43:15

God, can you use this network to bring some clarity, to foster some communication?

43:20

But listen, John, you and I both know, when you have that kind of dialogue and conversation, there's gonna be sparks, okay?

43:26

And that's why people are afraid. It's like, well, I don't wanna be labeled this. I don't draw a line with a brother or sister in Christ, but sometimes you have to do that.

43:36

And listen, if you love someone, if you love something, then you're gonna be willing to do that. You're gonna be willing to have those conversations, and that's important.

43:44

But if we don't start, you know, and that's what I'm saying. I think that the documentary from Founders was fantastic.

43:52

It was well done. I love the tone. And it's just like, so what do you do with that, okay? So now this network can, maybe it can be a vein, a stream, an avenue to start having that, even knowing, and this is what

44:04

I'm saying, knowing there's gonna be pushback, knowing there's gonna be sparks, knowing there's gonna be people that go, well,

44:09

I don't trust their motives, or whatever. Sometimes you have to take that risk, John, and you have to be willing to do it.

44:15

We've already dealt with some of this, but there's three objections, broadly speaking. One is, you guys are racists. So we'll start there.

44:23

Brad, are you a racist? No, sure. And I noticed when I went to the network,

44:29

I was like, what, there's a racist Baptist convention? I looked it up, and you have some, you even have people of different ethnicities kind of advertising, vouching for this network.

44:40

On your website, I didn't find anything in the Statement of Faith about racism or any of that. So I'm just,

44:46

I'm befuddled. Why? Well, it's, listen, this is what some of the problem with the entire

44:52

SBC conversation has been. And we see that in the world. I just think, and as pastors and leaders in the

44:59

SBC, we ought to be different. So if you're gonna dialogue about these ideas to just come back and say, well, you're a racist, well, that's not a very healthy, or in my mind, spiritually mature, competent response.

45:10

I mean, at the end of the day, those things matter. It's childish. It's an in -call, and there's no basis for it.

45:17

It's just trying to spark. Well, John, listen. So Lorene Spratt has been engaged in Southern Baptist life for years.

45:23

She's been engaged big time. And to just dismiss her, and listen, we've got a number of people involved with our network that are of different ethnicities and backgrounds, men and women.

45:34

I mean, it is what it is, but it's the ideas. That's the point, John. So you can have 48 different representations of every different background, but if people don't agree with the ideas or the principles, we've gotta be comfortable with the fact that you're not going to please that person that's arguing for that vantage point, because it's not what they're purporting.

45:56

So I just think that's sad, to be honest with you, and to be that dismissive of this network right out of the gate when the proof is so upfront, it's very sad.

46:07

Yeah, and I don't see a lot of people, but unfortunately, some people that have some big names and platforms.

46:13

Oh, yeah, sure. The other thing, this is the second thing, is your funding. It's all a conspiracy. There's some super,

46:19

I don't know what, right -wingers in smoke -filled rooms who love Trump that are funding you, and before we started this conversation live, recording it, you had told me that essentially your donations are coming from pastors.

46:36

Oh, yeah. So it's small country pastors up to the city pastors, but this is a collective network that's grassroots.

46:44

Listen, John, when we were meeting, and again, we've met in different locations around the country, we've had conference calls, we're pastors trying to pastor our churches, and so we've got a lot of work and pressure on us, right?

46:57

This is extra, and these men and women have met together, and so pastors, and then we've been meeting, and you look around and you say, okay, it's gonna cost some money to do an event at the

47:10

Southern Baptist Convention on Monday night, June 8th. How do we pay for it? Or it's gonna cost some money to do a website.

47:17

Things cost money, so where does that money come from? And you look around and say, well, I can kick in this, or our church can do this, or I'll do that.

47:25

I mean, that is literally what has been going on, and so I don't really know what all the other layers of that would be or whatever, but people wouldn't perceive that.

47:33

But at the end of the day, I know my leadership team at my church, I shared this all with them a few weeks ago.

47:39

I said, we're gonna be sharing with this, going public with this, and what do you guys think? And to a man, they were affirming of this, and whatever our church needs to do, but that's the conversations that pastors have been having with their leadership.

47:51

I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it absolutely does, yeah, and I'm sorry that you have a few people on social media who wanna take shots at your network when they have no evidence to back any of it up.

48:05

My understanding though is, and this is what I've seen, is that it's been overwhelming positive response.

48:12

Very much so. We need this, this is, we've approached, we've gone through the proper channels.

48:17

We haven't gotten anywhere. People put us off, they say they're gonna do something, they don't do it. I know that's me, I know that's you.

48:24

We need this, we need something to hold the leader's feet to the fire and tell them this is not the direction we want the convention going.

48:33

What are your plans? Give me some positive plans here, your goals, and how you're gonna accomplish them moving forward.

48:39

So the bigger thing to get this network public was to let pastors, churches, leaders know, hey, there's hope, we're willing to fight for this because we love the convention.

48:51

We love the Southern Baptist family. To give some clarity on here's a network that believes this, affirms this, is headed here, we value this.

49:02

The biggest thing was a lot of these pastors are disengaging, John, and not just financially.

49:08

I mean, they're literally just backing away and I'm going, if we continue to do this, you're gonna see an exodus in the next year or two years that is just, it's crazy.

49:15

So we wanted to first let them have some hope, stay engaged, okay? And I think that's happening, that's already starting to happen.

49:22

And so clearly that idea has been well -received and we're grateful for that. But we do have plans in the sense of, look, we're not trying to run the convention, okay?

49:33

I mean, like I keep saying, we're pastors doing this, but we do need confidence in our leadership.

49:38

We need confidence in our seminaries. We need confidence in the direction that we're going with our entities.

49:44

And so how do we do that? Well, out of this network, we want to encourage them. So that's what

49:50

I'm saying, we're not alone. That was the other thing, John, a lot of these pastors I talked to, they felt alone in their ideas.

49:56

They felt like if I speak up, I'm gonna be labeled and dismissed. That's just sad.

50:02

So there's strength in numbers, there's encouragement in numbers, there's iron sharpening iron in numbers.

50:08

And so we wanted to create that avenue, number one, for that, encourage them, let them know. And that's gonna happen through weekly communication.

50:15

We want to equip, okay? So that's gonna happen through articles, videos, dialogue. But from our vantage point, from what we believe conservative

50:24

Southern Baptists for decades have said, this is what we believe and this is why this is important.

50:30

So again, if we can inject that information, communication to encourage pastors who believe that, you're not alone and you're not crazy for thinking that, that's what we believe for you.

50:42

So encourage, equip, and then we also want to empower. And so whether that's at the annual convention,

50:48

I just think we need, you've got to be able to speak as one voice on things.

50:54

And I just think in the last four to five years, John, and other pastors have felt this way, we've been all on our own, we don't really know how to respond.

51:01

Well, what's the angle of this conversation? Where are we going with that strategy? This can help coalesce some things in the

51:07

SBC where we can speak as one voice or a more united voice, a more prepared voice going into the annual meeting.

51:15

And then we've got some cool ideas to encourage pastors on a lot of these issues throughout the year, whether it's a regional conference here or there, just some things that just let them know, again, it's not to replace something, it's to help pastors stay engaged, be encouraged, be equipped, and let's be engaged in this process.

51:35

I think that's healthy. If people want to join the Conservative Baptist Network, where can they go? Yeah, so conservativebaptistnetwork .com.

51:43

And I know it's a little lengthy when you first type it out, but then I think our computers remember that stuff. They do, that's right.

51:49

But then they can go Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all those platforms have been, frankly, very well engaged.

51:55

And that's pretty cool in just the first few days. You even have an Instagram. Yeah, really? You're getting in with the cool kids.

52:01

It's changing lives, John. It really is all across the world. But I wanted my kids to know that their dad was at least aware of some of that technology out there.

52:11

We've had fun with that. Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure, Pastor Brad.

52:16

God bless you. We pray for you moving forward, and I look forward to meeting you in person someday. God bless you,