Navigating the Riemenschneider/Webbon Controversy

Everyone it's John. I am out and about as they say in Canada day before Thanksgiving getting my good ol

Smoking rub for tomorrow. I'm gonna smoke a turkey and I got some meat rubs from meat church barbecue and They actually commented on X.

They said that I should use their rubs for the turkey. So I got the all -purpose which

I've used before. It's really good I've got the mesquite which is also probably good, but I haven't used it and I've got the honey hog

Which I I'm expecting to like because I like sweet stuff. My wife likes spicy, but you know,

I Accommodate I aim to please so we have six racks of ribs and then we got the turkey and I'm gonna use all three of These things and maybe just maybe this will be the beginning of a beautiful relationship where I can sponsor on the podcast

Holy cow barbecue. I'd love to do that They did not pay me to say any of this But I love sponsoring things that are near and dear to my heart and of course smoked meat is is up there on that list so That's that's why

I'm out and about in part and You know, I'll tell you the little barbecue. I'm not a secret but just in my experimentation what

I'm planning on doing on the ribs You know, I've done the three four five method three hours in the smoker two hours

Wrapped with like sugar and you know, I've used maple syrup too I've used different things some kind of a sweetener with a butter and then an hour with a sauce now

I skipped that I do a dry rub, but I tried the time before last when I was doing it and I loved it

It was the best ribs I've ever made to do just kind of a low and slow seven hours and then just you got to be careful because you don't

Want to dry it out. So the last two or three hours you just keep smoking You keep spraying apple cider not apple cider vinegar actual apple cider and it caramelizes and Those are some of the best ribs and you don't need a sweetener because the apple cider is the sweetener.

So I'm gonna try that again. We'll see how that works but anyway, yeah,

I'm gonna let you know if I remember to the how the turkey went someone asked if I forget and I've never actually done chicken either.

So this is gonna be a first step for me to do a bird to smoke a bird But enough about barbecue

I decided to do this podcast while I'm out doing my errands because I listened to Another podcast by my friend

Chris Arnzen who hopefully he would still be friendly with me. I do. Hopefully we're on friendly terms

I like him. I haven't stopped liking him. I've been on his show a few times but this whole

Tobias Riemenschneider Joel Webb and controversy is something he's been addressing and Some of you don't know what

I'm talking about and that's perfectly fine, you know skip the podcast. There's other stuff I'm gonna be talking about that.

I'm sure in other podcasts I'm sure will be more interesting to you. But for those of you who have asked and there are still people wanting questions answered

I I figured I'd put this out for the sake of unity and in an attempt to be a peacemaker

Because what I heard on the podcast with Chris Arnzen's guest from Scotland a pastor from Scotland is a perspective that you're not gonna hear online very much and that is a very

I would say pro Tobias Riemenschneider perspective and Most of the perspectives

I'm hearing now. Most people have concluded that Joel was misrepresented at the very least slandered at the very worst by Tobias and that Tobias needs to own this and Then you know, they can work together towards or even separately towards addressing some of these underlying issues that Tobias is upset about And concerned about and I think some of them rightfully so perhaps so There there are people that who don't have that opinion and so I want to I don't know if they're on X as much but I want to talk to those people and I want to hopefully build some bridges if possible and let you know at least from my perspective how

I think some of this stuff can be navigated if a conversation were allowed to take place and That's the thing that's been the holdup and and I you know,

I'm grieved by it I mean the New Testament is so explicit on the importance of getting things, right? Don't even let the

Sunday go down on your anger If you're angry if you know whether you're angry or not You remember your brother has something against you go and make it right with your brother before making an offering, right?

This is the New Testament. It's it's the whole like point of The ecclesiology of the

New Testament. It seems like that's at least an overriding point is unity in the body Paul says to be unified so often and of course even in the early church, there's disunity over various matters, but we need to strive for unity and I'm just disappointed.

I'll put it that way. I'm disappointed with the way things have gone down here and I want to talk about Joel a little bit and then address some of these things.

So from my perspective Joel has done Everything that I would expect him to at this point in my opinion

Is there more he could do that someone could come up with perhaps but Initially when this whole thing started and I talked to Joel I was concerned that He had in his two -hour podcast said some things that sounded arrogant

And I think he needed to apologize for that or at least own it and and he has he has publicly owned it that he said arrogant sounding things and he said because they were arrogant and What else can you hope for in that scenario, right?

What else is there left to do? the other thing was I Did have some conversations with guys concerned about a rising

Undercurrent of Nazi -esque ideology and I told some of these guys.

Yeah, I share some of that concern I don't see any institutional credibility behind any of this. But yeah, there's certainly some

Some guys mostly anon accounts who and I don't actually have a problem with anons by the way, but There I think there's reasons for having pseudonymous

Operations, I mean even our founding fathers had somewhat of a pseudonymous Attempt to justify the

Constitution in the Federalist Papers, so it's part of our the American tradition in a way I'm not against that but I do think you got to be careful because yeah

It does give you this opportunity to think that you're saying things without accountability And you can say some really off -color things because it doesn't come back to bite you

So that said I Have seen some insensitive things. I've called some of it out by the way and said look this this

Shouldn't say that that's not right but But there's there's a larger concern that this is growing and this this is feeding into some anti like Jewish hate in Jewish hatred,

I guess for lack of a better term and Nazi ideology ideology is being imported. And so I have shared some common ground with that I said, yeah like that like, you know ideology doesn't lead you to good places and even if these guys don't have any institutional credibility like I'm concerned for them and What it'll do to them and and so sure like I've I've done podcasts on this and we've talked about this most explicitly

I'd say the one I did with Joseph Spurgeon not too long ago on ideology and go check it out, but Joel I just want to see this about Joel if if you're concerned that Joel has a soft spot here

Joel has now publicly I think shown where he stands on this and part of that is he helped with Joseph Spurgeon and Joseph Spurgeon admitted this yesterday on my podcast that he helped

Joel Sorry Joel helped Joseph craft this statement which serves as an alternative to the

Antioch Declaration and it goes after Nazi ideology and Joel's fine with that and Joel is in support of that So if you're concerned that Joel's not publicly counter signaling that stuff and if you're concerned that Joel's arrogant,

I've seen at the very least what you would have to consider progress in those areas like if that was your concern you should be very happy that Joel is

Making those movements making those decisions. I don't see though a lot of happiness from the people that say that that's their concern and with Tobias my expectation was from the beginning that He's going to In a timely manner try to rectify things with Joel and And Also when it became obvious that he had misrepresented

Joel, which I've told him I think he did especially on the issue of whether or not Joel was making up the fact that he was pressured into Excommunicating and church disciplining this guy in his church who shared a meme

That was insensitive You know, I think he needed to own that. I think he needed to say look I misrepresented the conversation there at least insinuated that Joel wasn't under this pressure when in fact he was and And so I haven't seen that happen yet.

Maybe that can still happen, but we're talking a month now And so I think for those who have watched my two -hour video where I talk about the

Antioch Declaration They probably think I'm slanting more towards Joel And if there's a reason that it sounds that way it's because of what

I just told you I mean I I had I did have expectations in my mind for both and what would be required to bring peace about and Joel seems to be

Making those the the kind of steps you would expect I haven't at least yet seen that kind of thing from Tobias doesn't mean it's killed still can't happen, but I'm just I guess

I'm disappointed that this hasn't been dealt with it hasn't been as important as as I would think it would be and It doesn't mean that Tobias doesn't think it's important But it's just the whole thing's just a bad look

Especially coming out with a declaration that you're a framer of in the middle of all this that at least is tangentially connected to the issue

That is in question about Joel So it'd been much better to get that rectified and then together in a united spirit

Come up with something to go against this the ideology that you're both concerned with That's not how it went down though so So anyway

Joel Joel seems Joel has been open with me to communication With Tobias Tobias there have been ebbs and flows in my mind about whether About the level to which both are interested in communicating with one another and what those terms should be

But at this point, I'm comfortable to say it it appears to me that One side wants a church court that can make somewhat of a binding decision and the other side still wants to have more of a

Conversation that would be perhaps mediated but would would not be wouldn't have that level of Gravity to it that would

And you could maybe chalk this up to there's one side that doesn't see these issues as As perhaps unnavigable

Unnavigable as the other side in other words, you know I think there's people on the side of Tobias if you want to call it that who think that these issues are very basic level doctrinal matters that You need a church court for you need

You know, it's like a conversation you would have with someone perhaps Who's in a deviant theology?

Like you need a council called on this and there's guys the guys I think that are more on Joel's side of this issue

Think like we're not saying things that are all that different we can actually work out a

An agreement here and and I've come to realize that without knowing that those were sides that I guess

I fall on The side that is viewed more as a pro Joel side in that ways in that I do think this can be navigated without that gravity

And so I want to explain to you why I think that in part at least in major part and It has to do with what

I heard on Chris Arnson's podcast And and again, I want to like bend over backwards to say I actually like Tobias I've had him on the podcast before.

I think he actually has taken some very courageous stands, especially on kovat. I Like Chris Arnson.

I don't know anything about the guest he had but you know I'm assuming that that guy's all, you know operating in good faith

So I'm coming at it with that assumption. Of course every day that goes by without this being rectified is

It is not good and it makes it does make It doesn't do good things for Tobias in the court of public opinion at the very least we'll put it that way but I do think that You know,

I'm gonna attribute the best possible motives I can And in doing that I want to steel man what

I heard on Chris Arnson's podcast what what the perceived issues are on on At least a certain quarter of one side and what

I what I think may be the misunderstanding. So the first thing is that It where you start this whole

Where you think this issue started will influence the conclusion you draw Did this whole issue start with Joel Webben or did this issue start with Tobias making a meme public that should not have been public

I think both sides agree. This should have been private now one side is saying and this is the prevailing side of my mind on social media that Joel did not make this public.

This was Gradually made public by people like James White and Doug Wilson who somehow got a hold of this meme this

Privately shared meme to Tobias and they shared it publicly they issued

Concerning statements about it and made it an example of where the Reformed Christian movement is adopting some form of anti -semitism

I suppose and this was then picked up or then

Coupled with Tobias going on a show. I can't remember who was iron sharpens iron or eschatology matters

But he talked about I think was iron sharpens iron He talked about this prominent pastor in Texas who is at the very least he insinuated importing some of this anti -semitism stuff or Being soft on it being somewhat responsible for it being mainstreamed in Reformed evangelicalism

So it was enough detail that Joel Webben was like People are gonna figure out this is me.

I'm gonna get ahead of this and I'm gonna talk about it I don't actually blame Joel for that. I understand that You're looking at this.

You're seeing it's gradually being made public. You're seeing what appears to almost be, you know threatening statements concerning it or at least you just you feel the pressure applied to you that These people know or at least seem to know

Potentially that this is someone in your church and now it's becoming publicly known that you're Potentially a problem and so you you want to get out of the head of it and you want to show people that I'm you

Know, hey, I'm trying to navigate this. I'm trying to disciple this member of my congregation and I want to get out of head of the negative things that are

That people can easily jump to a conclusion about me on so This makes a big difference if you view it that way then you're gonna think

Joel Didn't start this this process of be this issue being made public started pre

Joel talking about it publicly, but I realized listening to Chris Arnson's podcast that There's a group of people at least that think that Joel was the one who made this public that this didn't have to be public that Tobias did not make this issue public now.

I suppose you could argue that by saying Tobias didn't explicitly mention Joel by name attaching him to you know, the member of his congregation that shared this meme and I could understand coming at it from that angle.

I suppose but to me the big thing is It was heavily implied that this could that this was potentially

Joel and I think that's enough for if someone can listen to it and It raises doubt in their minds that Joel could be the one who's responsible that would for Approving of Holocaust denial stuff or you know, whatever, you know some nefarious problem then

I think that it makes sense why Joel would then Respond to that. So that's the first I think dividing line and where you come down on like who made this public is

Probably going to affect how you view the outcome the other issue here is

Joel being soft on Holocaust denial or Nazi ideology and The evidence for this is look at this guy who's been in Joel's church who according to Tobias now that you have this meeting that was

Recorded between them before either of them were explicitly talking about this issue in a public way

Where they talked privately if you listen to that You'll find Tobias this meant guy was a member of Tobias's church who shared this insensitive meme and Tobias Seems to understand and know that this guy had some real

Jew hatred beforehand and the hatred of Jewish people in some way I it's like it's hard for me just because like from an outside perspective like You know,

I'm open to whatever but I have to also leave room for Maybe this guy's just being immature. Like I don't know this guy, right?

So So that's how I've thought about it like I'm open but I'm just I'm not gonna just jump to the conclusion that this guy is at that place because Joel who's his current pastor is saying he's dropped those beliefs and in his current place

Joel's discipled him and he yes, he shared this meme, but he has

Shedded his hatred of Jewish people if that ever was there and he doesn't lionize

Hitler and that kind of thing. So you're ending up a little bit here with like a Discrepancy between pastors and if you don't want to weigh in on that and you just want to put that on the shelf

I understand doing that but that's that's one of the charges the and so I I don't

I'm not gonna take that as necessarily evidence that Joel's soft on this kind of thing just because Joel Joel is saying and and this and he would be the the one with firsthand knowledge in the account of this that he has

Checked this guy out that he's Discipling him that he's he's also even issued private statements warning about a podcast that does share some of these kinds of views and That's Joel, right?

So I don't have a reason I'll say to believe that about him But the other pieces of evidence that are out there for this are that why you why don't why doesn't

Joel control his followers? And I think the issue here is there's a conflation of Nazi Ideologues that are anons on Twitter saying insensitive things sometimes terrible things and then pastors with a public reputation

They're not the same thing even if there's people weighing in and they don't like Tobias and you know why would they if they're someone who's like, you know hates

Jewish people and and wants to You know Re -envision the

Holocaust narrative. They're probably not gonna like Tobias So like that doesn't necessarily mean that they're by default followers of Joel and it doesn't mean that Joel's necessarily responsible for them

I Want to give the benefit of the doubt to Joel on this one I haven't heard evidence that these guys are just their followers of Joel and they're that they're getting this from Joel I think that's more important thing that they're getting this from Joel It's kind of like welcome to X right that's how

X has been for years it shouldn't be that way I've I've Rebuked some of these comments

I've seen from guys that are terrible in my opinion, but this doesn't mean that they're like on team

Joel Necessarily that it may mean that they just you know, they're some of these guys look for opportunities to promote their ideology and any scuffle that's even tangentially related to Nazism or Holocaust stuff they're gonna find their way into that so Careful of that assumption that assumption could also be slanderous because Again, Joel Joel helped craft this statement that Joseph Spurgeon made that goes it against Nazi ideology like Joel's not

In sync with that and then the other thing is that there's these underlying issues that are being lost in all of this and This is one of the things that I've been

I found the most frustrating because I try to say Get the stuff right that's obvious for you like get this stuff right with Joel that the the insinuation that he made up the fact that he was pressured into Disciplining this guy in his church or excommunicating him clearly there was pressure

He listened to the recording of the private meeting between Tobias and Joel there was pressure So let's just like let's get past that and once we're past that we can together try to focus on these other issues

That you're concerned with but it's like we can't get past that and I and I think the order

You know, like it seems like there's guys who think that no you need to first show that you're

Against Nazi ideology or against anti -semitism or something like that. It's like, okay.

Joel has signaled publicly that he is against Nazi ideology on some level But it's not it's not he hasn't signed the

Antioch Declaration, I guess or he hasn't Done it maybe as strongly as someone I don't know exactly

I'm speculating at this but that Sentiment seems to be there. I don't think when there's a personal problem that Involves a guy's character in this case

Joel's character. Did he lie? I think that For him to be on the team

To get him on your team against Nazi ideology. You have to rectify that first I don't even know how you begin to form a united front it's very difficult to do that when he's not brought to the table and then they have the expectation that he should sign the document or whatever when he wasn't even made known about it until it was practically public or right before it was public and and then there's things in it that you know as you're reading it that seem to Indicate this isn't just about that.

This is about other issues and And even things that I when I was reading it I was like this sounds like it's about Joel and I didn't even know

I didn't maybe it's not but it sure sounds that way Like I wouldn't expect Joel to get on board with that There has to be some private reconciliation first, but that's what the holdup is

So that's another kind of like cart before the horse thing like which one happens first Well, they can both happen somewhat simultaneously

But you're gonna be working apart from each other and not together until the personal issues are dealt with so yeah, they're

Hopefully you everyone can come to the table and talk about what Tobias says are the underlying issues.

I'm totally for that but This other stuff has to be dealt with so the other thing

I noticed is for guys who have known Tobias for a while they This was on Chris Arnson's podcast like Tobias wouldn't slander.

That's not his character That may be true I actually am very open to the idea that Tobias is

Yeah, I don't know him well, but from my communication he's been humble with me I think he seems sincere and genuine

Again, though, it's hard. I don't know him. Well, but I Haven't seen anything to contradict that at this point why he's taken so long to issue any kind of statement about Where you know what he said and how it miss at the very least

It made the wrong impression about Joel. I don't know I don't know why that's taken so long the longer it goes though the more it pains me for him though because it it

It hurts his character and it hurts the character of people that are sticking up for him the long

It's been a month now like And I I know James White's out there saying like you got to be patient I realized there's like yeah,

I mean if I can understand a week I can even understand two weeks I understand things come up and and you're busy as a pastor and there's other more important things but peace in the body is very very important and It's like when a statement comes out and his name is right

There is one of the draftees like it just raises the question like was this important to you, but not this

The look is so bad. And so I just again I appeal please Let's get this worked out publicly now the other thing is

There's this understanding that there's a duty to provide recordings to toe. Oh, yeah So let me actually put a cap on the last issue first Tobias wouldn't slander.

That may be true. Okay, but The effect of what he has said has put in to call into question

Joel's character in ways that don't seem to be accurate. So Whether he intended it or not

That's like that's an outstanding issue. Alright, so the next thing Joel has a duty to provide

Tobias with the recording now the recordings out there publicly now This is one of those things

I know why Joel did not provide to so first of all My understanding is Joel actually didn't know this meeting was recorded that vindicates him in some way but When he did get a hold of it he

I think the concern was that Their trust had whatever trust could have been there wasn't there with Tobias and he didn't want to just give it to Tobias because he thought

Maybe Tobias would find something in it and then try to use whatever was in it to twist against Joel or to use against Joel and And He didn't want that to happen so Because trust had been broken if trust was still there

I think like that probably would have been fine, but trust had been broken And so he didn't feel the obligation to provide that recording to Tobias and I know

Tobias said that that meant he was held hostage My personal view on this is

Tobias represented a meeting that he lived through that he was there for He met rep he represented it

I think in part wrongly that said

If Joel's gonna come out and say you represented this wrongly I would want to at least show clips where Tobias did that and that is what

Joel did so He didn't release the entire meeting, but he released those clips

There's a guardedness there I don't necessarily think Joel is required to do that to be quite honest with you

I think it's a nice thing for Joel to do it. If I was in Joel's position I think I would do it just because I listened to the recording and I thought you know

Joel doesn't really have anything to hide here, but I totally understand where he's coming from and I don't think it was

Wrong for him to not release that immediately to Tobias That's this gets into the weeds because like he did release it to other people to listen to and And this is where I know some people have a problem.

Why not Tobias and why these people well, I Read between the lines like Joel trusts these guys

In whatever chat group it was that he releases. I wasn't in that chat group He must trust those guys more than he does

Tobias and he's probably trying to get second opinions on What was said and if I were

Joel I would feel I would feel targeted I would feel Like I don't want to give ammunition to the to someone who seems like they're trying to rip me down like I I get it

And I think that understanding at least needs to be there for why Joel would have felt that way now

But but now it's a non -issue because that recordings been public for now what? At like two and a half three weeks.

It's been public It's been quite a bit of time and enough time. Tobias has had it for a long enough time to make a statement

There's no doubt so I kind of put this on the shelf as more or less a tertiary or a non -issue and then there's this charge of collaboration that the one side is saying that Joe boot and James White and Douglas Wilson collaborated with Tobias on this

And you know going against Joel Webb and and the other side saying there was no collaboration It's hard looking at all the moving parts to see why

Joel wouldn't think that so if there was no collaboration It's like all the circumstantial evidence is there for there to make it look like there is ie

Tobias is saying in this private recording that he agrees with those gentlemen.

I just mentioned ie those guys all shared Tobias's video against Joel ie the statement comes out that has

What appear to be if you're Joel I would think you would see in it potential things that are talking about him and Who are the people who drafted it?

It's all those guys like the circumstantial evidence isn't good It looks like there is collaboration.

So if there's not that needs to be said clearly ASAP, but it hasn't been and it just leaves the impression that there's collaboration going on.

So So I understand why people looking at it from Joel's perspective think that and then the other thing that I see as a dividing line is this whole like yeah, but there's things that Joel has participated in that are neo -nazi adjacent and so that would be like white boy summer memes and The phrase no more brother wars.

These are the two specific examples that came up in Chris Arnton's podcast And you know, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this a little bit

I do the white boy summer thing I understand a little more but I'm someone who I'm not like a diehard white boy summer guy but I am someone who has

I think twice put a white boy summer meme out there and I Explained actually both times.

I put one out there that this is something open. This is not restrictive and like Like that all this is is a push back against the ways that white people and men in particular have been attacked and so it's just a it's a funny humorous way mostly like a non -threatening way to say hey white people actually aren't all that bad and It's mostly centered around the sports that white people enjoy during the summer like water skiing and that kind of thing and so that's how

I've understood it and That's how I think it's been since the beginning broadly speaking now, yeah, there's there's some guys who have used this to put in Nazi imagery and that kind of thing.

I don't think that necessarily Defines the entire I don't even know if you could call it a movement

But the entire ethos you got guys like Jack Posobiec, right who are waving white boy summer flags and things.

It's just it it's literally I think just a reaction to look at the calendar look at all these things that are

That that are being introduced that we're supposed to celebrate and look at the things that have been taken off the cat the calendar like Columbus Day like Presidents Day is now, you know, we took

Abraham Lincoln and Washington's birthday to combine it But it's now we have you know, all these other holidays that promote perversion or promote some kind of diversity

But it's like you're not allowed to celebrate White people and you're not allowed to celebrate men and so this is just like a humorous way to be like hey

I think actually we're pretty good and And we're not all that bad. We're not the devil and anyone can be involved

I mean, I've seen white boy summer memes that are like promoting Clarence Thomas. So you can't tell me that this is

Like a monolithic Nazi kind of thing, but that's how some of these guys tend to think about it

Like this is this is like Nazi esque By definition which I don't buy and you like I don't

I could go on and on about this but like Associations are hard things and it depends how close they are

But like the client like think about the American flag for a minute. Like are you okay with the American flag? I don't know like the

Klan used it heavily in the Progressive Era There's whole pictures of them that marching in Washington with the American flag.

It flew over the slave ships coming here It flew over the troops that took out the

Native Americans out west and put them on reservations it flew over the ships that Colonized other areas of the world during the

Spanish -American War It was I mean, it's been used as this is horrible hateful symbol, you know

Obviously, I don't believe that the American flag is reducible to those things, but I can certainly find you more than enough

I'm sure if you went to the Klan website I haven't done this so I don't know but if you went there,

I'm sure you'd find Americana icon iconography. Does that mean that it like American flag is bad?

No So you have to like you have to be careful with with that kind of thing that guilt by association thing

Like I think there are ways in which it can be valid If there's too tight of a connection or too close of a connection or like if someone's waving a swastika around Right, like that's what like it is

So connected in the majority people's minds to a certain socialist regime from the 1930s and 40s in Germany that it is it's hard to like Not associate it with that.

But then again, there are people who are Hindu and there are people who are Southwestern Native American tribes who use that symbol so it also even then depends.

Who are you talking about? What's the context they're bringing to it? So just be careful with that kind of stuff is what

I would caution I don't think Joel Webbin is He's signaling to neo -nazis because he enjoyed a white boy summer meme at some point

And the other thing is that you know, the no more brother wars thing Like that was that's a World War one phrase.

That's not even a World War two phrase. I Like if you go back to the origin of that phrase I always thought that had to do with the

Christmas truce during World War one where you had Germans and you had Allied forces getting together and celebrating

Christmas and then they shooting at each other the next day and There was I don't know if it was a poet or someone had said no more brother wars in relation to that and then it

Caught on that's not even a World War two thing So why in the world are people saying that that's a Nazi thing to say?

I don't get it guys Like maybe a Nazi said it somewhere. Okay, but that's not the root of it.

That's not why many people have used the phrase I just So I think these things can be navigated through but There is a lot of poisoning the well and there there's a lot of Conclusions being jumped to and I don't think it's all on one side.

By the way I do think I think there's some legitimate concerns with there are some guys who want to take advantage of this situation

And and they are and they believe me. They're they're making inroads there. I I think that there are podcasts and Actual people who are more not

Nazi ideologues who are benefiting from this immensely because They see someone who's concerned with that with Perceived egg on the face and now it gives them a platform to say

That's what everyone who's concerned with Nazi ideology is like it's giving them that opportunity

So yeah, am I concerned about that kind of thing? Yeah, cuz I don't want guys to go down or or women as the case may be to go down a dark road that's gonna leave them high and dry that Provides simplistic explanations for the world that surround them that actually aren't ultimately true and and that do

I think lead you down the road of Denying Certain theological things

I think now it depends how far down you get on the road But yeah, I think like I told some of the other day.

I had no problem saying it Like what's the problem with Nazi ideology? I was like, well three things off the top of my head You got the lie aspect the fact that there's a

Darwinian base to the ideology. You can't really read Mein Kampf without noticing that Secondly, there's this element of murder.

That was part of policy. It wasn't just that you know, okay You have abortions United States. I got it.

But like this is you have in Nazi Germany this systematic killing of people that did no crime as a matter of policy

So you you don't and like I understand America's terrible on this issue of abortion but America didn't have and they don't have now a

Systematic like the government is going to go in and eliminate this demographic

That it's still really bad that the government allows you to in certain states

And and I guess some people would argue in every state at some level to to eliminate a living person

But it's not a matter of public policy in the sense that the government's doing so so I would say murder Is part of the problem here?

That's a objective sin And then I think you have this idea that the Volk is deified and then conflated with the purposes of the government

So there's just no accountability The Volk becomes the standard and that ultimately ends in an idolatry now

It's not the same as what people are saying about racial vainglory or not at racial but like ethnic

I don't know what words being used national vainglory. It's not the same thing It's not like, you know, the gospel coalition saying off you'll love your family too much and then well if you love your nation too much

You know, it's not the level of love it's the kicking God out and replacing him with the will of supposedly the people but it's actually the state like that's

And that takes more to like I could do a whole podcast probably fleshing that out more. I'd have to do some digging but I Read enough to know like yeah, that was going on and that was very much part of the justification of Germany So those three things alone

Those are identifiable sinful things and if you go down those paths that puts you in conflict with the

Bible at some level now Thankfully not every guy probably who is on this path is down all the way

But I think it's important and that's why Joseph Spurgeon and I talked about this issue To point out where this goes wrong and it's the same thing with Other ideologies the same thing with liberalism, by the way, which everyone just seems to assume

It's the same thing with you know, this multicultural neutralist society like it's the same thing with with Communism and the woke ideology social justice like, you know

I've tried to take the same posture on these things but knowing that liberalism and the social justice stuff are actually in a way way in one sense way more threatening just because they have so much institutional power to enact their

To get their agenda into a policy form So so yeah, like am I concerned sure but like I'm way more concerned and I'm gonna devote way more time to like the threats

That actually are out there Exerting influence that affects my family directly.

So anyway that that's more of my take on it, but I do think there are

Misunderstandings and there's ways to navigate this and I I do think both sides and this is where I want to caution people who are

Really gung -ho like Tobias is terrible. Whatever you're saying online Be careful with that like be measured

I think that there's there's a different assumption a bundle of assumptions I think some of these guys who are on Tobias's side are coming with and They're offended in part because Tobias has a reputation.

He's built over the years. He has taken strong stands and He may have pure motives in all this but like I say again

The longer time goes by without at least an admission that there was a misrepresentation of Joel's character

The the more it's hard to defend that kind of thing. So I'm hoping for the best

I'm hoping that these guys can work it out. I'm really happy to see some of the adjustments you could say that Joel's made and That's my thought on it hopefully that that helps now for some of you navigate this better and get clarity on it and See where I'm coming from and God bless.