- 00:00
- Okay, let me let me take Tony back to Acts chapter 13 and verse 48
- 00:05
- Tony How do you see the latter part where it says and all who were appointed for eternal life?
- 00:11
- Well, let me come in a slightly different angle That is that this question of the will and free will and so on I think in one sense there's a lot that we all agree on everybody agrees that Someone hears the gospel they decide to respond to it.
- 00:23
- They will they make the act of will to respond to it Nobody can actually respond to the gospel without willing to do so That's not the point of issue.
- 00:31
- The point of issue is what moves them to is it that They just do it off their own bat or is it they will it because God is moving them by his spirit
- 00:40
- That's the point of issue that they will it that is a choice. They make that. Yeah, everybody agrees with that It's obvious and Edward saying that as well.
- 00:48
- Yes, he's saying that there has to be the spirit moving When people make make that decision, but I think the real issue here is
- 00:57
- Can God's grace when it moves Fail to save the person that God intends to save there.
- 01:03
- I think Goes to the first question that Tony said is is well who moves us to do that Well, is that moving an effective moving or is it just simply something that tries but sometimes fails?
- 01:15
- I think that's where the issue is because Because is the number of the elect in God's mind fixed not because he looks down the corridors of time
- 01:22
- But because it is his action that determines that that becomes I think really the issue and that's why
- 01:29
- I like to really work Through Jesus his own words in John 6 because Jesus says that he's come down from heaven not to do his own will but the will
- 01:37
- Of him who sent him what is the will of the father for the son? That he not lose any of those that have been given to him, but raise them up on the last day
- 01:44
- So the question I ask is if it's really dependent upon man's free will Then how can
- 01:50
- Jesus be a perfect Savior does Jesus try to save some and fail That really is a question that we're really
- 01:56
- I think touching okay Well, we'll come on to that in a moment or two. I'm not sure if we're scratching where you're itching tonight
- 02:02
- I don't know whether we're asking the kind of questions that you're really wanting to have answered And so we have email here if you'd like to Email into us.
- 02:11
- It's live at Revelation TV comm and we'd love to receive your emails and we'll try and answer them in a few moments time we're going to open up the phone lines as well, and it may well be that you want to Phone in and make a comment or make a point and we'll be asking one of our panel in order to answer it
- 02:28
- But we want to help you tonight. It's not simply we're sitting here and wanting to have an academic debate So we really want to hear and interact with you so let me give you one of a email that came in and this is from John John Copeland and He says many years ago as a young believer
- 02:46
- I was challenged about this topic because I was very friendly with a person who was Calvinistic in his doctrine The issue result was resolved for me when
- 02:54
- I read the old Christian Herald newspaper where Billy Graham had a sort of questions and answers He said he saw the issue like this
- 03:01
- Imagine an old -fashioned stone built doorway with engraved words on the stone lintel above the door as you approach and enter
- 03:08
- You see the words come to me and I will give you rest That's the whosoever That will respond
- 03:15
- But when you're in the door you look round and above the door where you see the words
- 03:20
- Saved from the beginning of time or similar words. That's a predestination of God so what what what
- 03:30
- John Copeland seems to be saying here in a sense is that you're both coming from different angles
- 03:35
- But you're saying the same thing Are you saying the same thing? I Don't sorry.
- 03:41
- Yes. I mean basically, um, I know that Like he was saying in John chapter 6
- 03:48
- Jesus was saying we saw rather father has given to him and he will know in the wise cast out
- 03:54
- And it looked as if there is a group of people that is called unto himself The Bible says in the book of John chapter 3 verse 16
- 04:02
- God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever in other words.
- 04:09
- It is Everybody it is open to everybody. It is not It is not a particular set of people
- 04:16
- I believe that everybody has been destined to salvation if you put it that way
- 04:21
- And I believe that it is the perfect will of God for them to come I believe it is also their will he has given us that free will from the
- 04:31
- Garden of Eden and so Everybody has a choice, but for you to be able to make the decision lies with you
- 04:38
- But whosoever will may come and so it's not exclusively for a particular people
- 04:45
- Probably because of the interpretation. I do not know but I still believe that it is a general thing and everybody is invited
- 04:52
- Okay, if I could respond to that Yes, John 3 16 says all the believing ones
- 04:59
- There is no Greek word for whosoever in John 3 16 It is it is a a phrase that literally is pass hop is
- 05:05
- John Everyone believing the point is that there is no person who will ever believe in Jesus Christ for salvation who will be lost
- 05:12
- Every person who will believe in Christ will find him to be a perfect Savior But that's not the issue the issue is can ever does every person have the capacity to?
- 05:21
- Free themselves from the bonds of sin to free themselves from spiritual death and do this outside the grace of God And I would say that Jesus's own words in John 6 indicate that that is that is not the case
- 05:32
- He is explaining the unbelief of the Jews these men who have come to him saw the miracle of 5 ,000 the day before they saw
- 05:39
- That the breaking of the bread Remember what happens in John 6 Jesus starts with 5 ,000 excited folks plus the disciples and by the end of John chapter 6 he has 12 confused disciples
- 05:47
- This was not exactly a church growth seminar taking place in John chapter 6 But the reason was these people who were excited about him were not excited about him
- 05:57
- They were excited about what they were seeing and when Jesus starts focusing upon their spiritual need they become offended
- 06:03
- And they eventually walk away from him because he keeps emphasizing to them No man has the ability to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him
- 06:12
- And I will raise him up on the last day you see it's all of the father and the son Glorifying the triune
- 06:18
- God it's not any of man making this final decision It's all of grace And so I think the identity of those from eternity that God has chosen to be merciful to was known to him
- 06:31
- Not because he looks down the corridors of time But because he is the creator of all things and we are completely dependent upon his grace his grace never fails so James People must be saying as I listen to you
- 06:42
- Do we have there for a God then who is condemning people to go to hell? because if we follow logically what you're saying that then it has to be that the
- 06:51
- God is looking down at a Congregation of people or a group of people in a house and in a street and saying well well he's gonna have him he's not
- 06:58
- Well remember what Romans chapter 9 says remember how Paul answered that very same objection And it's interesting when someone raises an objection that an apostle answered that might in and of itself
- 07:08
- Indicates if you wish to continue to watch this program switch to Genesis on 772 but also if you want to watch it online go to Genesis TV dot
- 07:18
- Us in judgment his response was who are you a man who answers back to God shall the thing form say to him who formed it
- 07:25
- Why did you make me like this and then it talks about the potter in the clay? Remember it is not that there is some innocent man someplace and God comes up behind him and Forces him to be a bad and evil person he wants to be good
- 07:38
- But God forces him to be evil no in point of fact the Bible reveals to us that God is frequently
- 07:43
- Restraining the evil of men remember Joseph Joseph's brothers wanted to kill him, but God restrained that desire on their part
- 07:50
- I'm not sure how that fits with free will but he restrained that desire on their part and so we're talking about a body of guilty people the fallen children of Adam and God for his own reasons chooses
- 08:04
- Gloriously to be gracious to some of those to demonstrate his grace his mercy and his love, but we're not
- 08:10
- Universalists in saying that he is he is Gracious to every single person in that same way because if we were then
- 08:18
- God could not demonstrate his wrath and his justice either so I Really think it's important that someday when there are
- 08:26
- All of those people bowing before God and worshiping him and then in hell you have people staying upon the parapets of hell
- 08:33
- Screaming their hatred of God the one thing that separates those two groups is a five -letter word called grace
- 08:39
- I am NOT in Christ because I'm better Smarter more sensitive anything like that.
