January 20, 2005

Grace, Predestination, and the Roman Catholic Parallel

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the United States.

It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Thursday afternoon, 4 p .m. in the afternoon here in the Mountain West, even though we don't really have, we've got mountains around here, I guess, but we're still in the Mountain West, more like the Desert West.

For some reason, I lost my little weather thingy, Bobby. Oh, there it is. Seventy-seven degrees, folks. Seventy-seven degrees here in Phoenix. It hit 80-something yesterday, which is odd. Oh, it just dropped to 75.

That was quick. Well, anyway, it's sort of warm here in Phoenix. It's not like it's been for a while, but we are back on our regular schedule, having taken two weeks and moved this up a little bit so that we could accommodate a teaching schedule.

I have a couple of clips to play. I do need to get back to the Herb Revis audio today. But first, I wanted to play a clip of another Catholic Answers call. I guess Mr. Aiken does know that we're reviewing some of these because he took a completely unwarranted, bogus shot at me and some others today.

I guess that's how we respond to substantive critiques of things that are said. But anyway, the reason I play this one, though, is I'd like you to listen very carefully, very, very carefully to the kind of argumentation that is utilized in answer to a question to Mr. Aiken concerning the subject of grace and predestination.

And I have a feeling if you listen carefully, you may recognize this from, well, someplace else. We've done this before. I've played Carl Keating answering questions like this. But every once in a while, it's good to remind, especially our Arminian friends, who is standing next to them.

Okay, I've got two quick questions. The first one is, it's clear in the New Testament that God is our Savior. And on the other hand, and I'm sorry, I'm driving now, I don't have, like in John 6, it almost implies that not all of us do have a true choice.

So we almost have to be enabled to have a choice.

Sure. Now think, there's a good question. And how does a Roman Catholic answer that? Well, remember, James Aiken is a former Presbyterian. And if you've heard some of the debate that we did a number of years ago on KIXL radio, which was fairly short, but on related subjects, then you're going to hear a little something of that here.

But listen to the responses offered by Rome and see if maybe you've heard it someplace before.

It is an established teaching of Catholic theology that in order for us to come to God, he must first give us sufficient grace to enable us to come to him. So we cannot come to God on our own initiative.

The denial of that proposition is a heresy known as Pelagianism, which was common in the 5th century of the Church. And the Church definitively rejected it. So we must have God's grace in order to come to him.

However, when he gives us that grace, he doesn't override our free will. Instead, what he does is enable us to make a choice for or against him. And some people exercise that choice and others refuse it.

And so that will determine, or I suppose I should say some people exercise it positively and some people refuse to exercise it positively. And that determines whether or not a person then enters a state of sanctifying grace.

The grace that God gives us to enable us to make that choice is sometimes called prevenient grace. That term is used especially in Protestant circles, but it means grace that comes before or prevenes the decision to accept or reject God.

It's also, in Catholic terminology, called actual grace. You may have heard that term. God gives us actual grace in order to help us enter a state of sanctifying grace, which is what we mean when we say a state of grace.

The other question I had was, does everyone have grace? Ah, now this is the next thing I was going to go to. Further reflection in Catholic theology has established that God gives at least sufficient grace to everybody.

So everyone, at some point in their lives, is given sufficient grace to make a choice for or against God. Now, there is a question, though, of does, obviously some people seem to receive more grace than others, and that's God's right to determine, since it's his grace he's given out.

But he gives everybody sufficient grace to choose him, at least at some point in their lives. Now, there's a question of does he give some folks a special kind of grace that, without destroying the person's free will, results in their always freely choosing him.

That grace is sometimes called efficacious grace, and it is the contention of some, but not all, Catholic theologians that God does do that. Thomists are known for saying that God, in addition to giving sufficient grace to all, gives efficient grace to some, and those people to whom he does give efficient grace will invariably come to him freely.

Now, other people will say, well, how are they doing it freely if the results are invariable? And so that's a criticism that some folks mount of the Thomist position. But it is a question that's around in Catholic theology, and there are different opinions on it.

If you'd like to read more about it, I'd suggest you get a copy of my book, The Salvation Controversy, where I have a chapter about such matters. Well, there you go.

If you're wondering what I'm talking about, where have you heard that before? God's got to give grace. And so you see, everybody says, oh, that's sola gratia, grace. There it is. We all believe in grace, right?

And you've got to have grace. Well, how many times have I said it? How many times have I said it? The controversy has never been about the necessity of grace. The controversy is over the sufficiency of grace.

Over and over and over again. That was the dividing line. And that dividing line is no longer between Protestants and Roman Catholics. That dividing line stands between monergists and synergists. And if you're a synergist, as it was just said, well, God gives you the grace, but then it's up to your free will, see, whether you positively utilize it or whether you don't, see.

That's where the synergism comes in. God's grace is there to help out. And what he was talking about there, of course, is the Augustinian controversy. Is there such a thing as the elect to whom specific grace is given that will result in their coming without any question?

Well, you know, if you're reading John 637, which is what the poor caller was talking about, John 637 talks about that. It talks about all that the Father gives me will come to me. And so, obviously, you're in that type of situation where you're up between the contrast between Roman Catholic theology and biblical teaching at that point.

But those of you who are synergists and yet you say, I stand firm against Rome, that's one of the things that got Dave Hunt so angry in our first encounter. I started off saying, hey, look, in reality, you're saying the same thing.

When it comes to the issue of the nature of grace and the will of man, you agree with Rome. Why don't you just admit that? They won't admit that. And, of course, what Dave has done instead is try to, well, you see, Augustine was the first Roman Catholic.

And since Calvin quotes Augustine and Calvinism is actually Roman Catholicism. And, you know, Roman Catholic apologists know that their most consistent critics that do the most exegesis and provide the strongest challenge to them are not Arminians.

They are not synergists. They are Calvinists. They know that. They recognize that. And there's a reason for that, because we're consistent. And they're not. So the others are not. So there you go. I hope that's a wake-up call to some of you.

I really, really hope that some of you who are Arminian in your outlook, even if you don't use that terminology, you're a synergist. You think God gives grace to everybody, but then he just sort of sits back and hopes that you use it properly, et cetera, et cetera.

I really hope you'll listen to that, and I hope it bothers you and bothers you to no end to hear a Roman Catholic saying the same thing you say about God's grace and about the will of man, because that's where the issue is joined.

That's why I started The Potter's Freedom and the way I started The Potter's Freedom and so on and so forth. So I think that's something that's very useful to recognize. Now, let's get back to the Herb Revis sermon we missed out last time.

I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm very thankful. The phone calls, really enjoyed them. Really enjoyed our friend down in Australia, a Scotsman in Australia. That's funny. But anyway, if you missed last time, then you may not recall, but we are listening to Pastor Herb Revis from Florida preaching on Calvinism, and I believe that Pastor Revis has every right in the world to preach to his own people about Calvinism, and I believe that Pastor Revis has every right in the world to say that Calvinism is not to be preached in his church.

I would never, ever say that that should, because Arminianism ain't going to be preached in my church. Let's put it that way. There's no question about it. Now, of course, I would say one thing. I think I have a more consistent basis for saying that Arminianism is not to be preached at the Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church.

There's a reason for that, and that is we have a church constitution. We have a confession of faith. The confession of faith is very clear. The confession of faith teaches very plainly what we believe, and hence to teach Arminianism at Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church would be to deny the confession of faith that you said you believed when you joined the church.

The problem is the Baptist faith and message of the Southern Baptist Convention does not preclude teaching Calvinism. In fact, if you read the Baptist faith and message, you will see a number of Calvinistic statements.

Now, it's been changed a lot over the years, and so it's quite honestly self-contradictory on those points, but there is a reference to regeneration preceding faith in the Baptist confession, in the statement of faith of the Southern Baptist Convention, and that goes back to the olden days.

That goes back to the days when people understood these things, and so there's really no grounds, at least as far as the statement of faith is concerned, to say that Calvinism should not be preached, but he's the pastor of the church.

I don't know if he has a biblical organization of the church and has elders, but it may not work out that way, but they have the right to do that. My problem, of course, is there needs to be an accurate representation of anything you say when standing behind what I would call the sacred desk, and I know some of you just rolled your eyes, the sacred desk, but I do believe that the elder who stands before the people of God and preaches to them and opens the word of God to them, we should be the very standards of truthfulness in how we handle the word of God and how we represent others.

That doesn't mean we're going to be perfect. That doesn't mean that we're not going to make mistakes, but you know what, on this issue, honestly, there just isn't any reason why there should be so much misrepresentation of Reformed theology.

It's not like we don't publish books. It's not like we don't do webcasts and radio broadcasts and are really willing to talk with folks, you know. The only reason that there is the level of misrepresentation of Reformed theology out there is an unwillingness on the other side to engage in that kind of dialogue and to take the time.

You know, Pastor Rivas says he's got all these books on the shelf. Okay, but all that means is, did you read them recently? Because they contest in radio broadcasts and are really willing to talk with folks, you know.

The only reason that there is the level of misrepresentation of Reformed theology out there is an unwillingness on the other side to engage in that kind of dialogue and to take the time. You know, Pastor Rivas says he's got all these books on the shelf.

Okay, but all that means is, did you read them recently? Because they contest in radio broadcasts and are really willing to talk with folks, you know. The only reason that there is the level of misrepresentation of Reformed theology out there is an unwillingness on the other side to engage in that kind of dialogue and to take the time.

You know, Pastor Rivas says he's got all these books on the shelf. Okay, but all that means is, did you read them recently? Because they contest in radio broadcasts and are really willing to talk with folks, you know.

The only reason that there is the level of misrepresentation of Reformed theology out there is an unwillingness on the other side to engage in that kind of dialogue and to take the time. You know, Pastor Rivas says he's got all these books on the shelf.

Okay, but all that means is, did you read them recently? Because they contest in radio broadcasts and are really willing to talk with folks, you know. The only reason that there is the level of misrepresentation of Reformed theology out there is an unwillingness on the other side to engage in that kind of dialogue and to take the time.

You know, Pastor Rivas says he's got all these books on the shelf. Okay, but all that means is, did you read them recently? Because they contradict what's being said here. And so, we went through, for example, Romans 9 last time.

We looked at the very odd reading of Romans 9 that he presented and the fact that he really didn't try to substantiate that and so on and so forth. And we had just finished up right around where he began talking about the invitation system.

And so, we'll pick up with it there.

The Invitation System and the Problem of Decisionism

And his thesis is that invitations are not biblical and they confuse people because people have equated salvation with walking down an aisle. Well, people have equated salvation with taking the Lord's Supper, so are we going to quit having the Lord's Supper?

They say invitations are unbiblical. That's what they say. Invitations were started by Charles Grandison Finney, the evangelist, adopted by Dwight L. Moody. They overemphasized human will and thought you can make people get saved just by sheer willpower.

Put pressure on them during invitation time. Well, folks, there are invitations in the Bible. I know invitations are misused. I don't get up here and say, Brother Tim, let's sing 49 verses of Just As I Am, and if we put enough heat on them, maybe we'll get somebody saved tonight.

I don't believe this thing is I don't believe I can manipulate people into getting saved. Did Moses in the book of Exodus not go to the gate of the camp and say, he that is on the Lord's side, come over here and stand with me?

Is that not an invitation?

I just pause it there. Do we really want to make that the parallel? I mean, do we really want a statement of what side you're on and that conflict that would end up resulting in people killing other people?

Is that really a parallel to what we're doing in the invitation? I grew up in churches that used invitations. The church that I'm in right now is the first church I had ever attended. I mean, the first time that service ended without an invitation, I'm like, what's going on here?

I grew up with it. So every service ended with Just As I Am or I Am Thine, O Lord, and so on and so forth. And I've seen how it works. And in the last church I was in, when a new pastor came in a couple years after I left, he got in front of those people and he told them, if I recall correctly, that he had been looking at the numbers and that of all the thousands of people who had been baptized, I mean, this church used to, at one point, baptize more than 1 ,000 people a year.

That was the big goal, 1 ,000 people a year. I think over the course of the preceding two years, they did not know where 85 of the people were who had been baptized in that church, 85%. They had no idea where they were.

They had no contact with them. They were not involved with the church. Fifteen percent, they knew where they were and there was some level of contact involved with the church, whatever it might be. Eighty-five percent.

And I knew that at a point in time in that particular church, there had been a fairly serious effort that had been made to try to disciple people who came forward in invitations. But there was one major problem.

And I was one of the people that wanted to be one of the disciples because I saw the need for that. I wanted to be one of the disciples. And it was called the encourager program. And you'd be assigned a new convert who would walk down the aisle.

But it takes two to make that work. And it was very discouraging to encouragers because of the fact that these individuals would come down the aisle and you know how they are on that first time you talk to them.

And they're taken off into another room. You have a word of prayer with them and all the rest of that stuff. But there's no follow through. It is so clearly the shallow soil stuff. Remember the parable?

The parable of soils is not the parable of seeds. It's not the parable of sowers. It's the parable of soils. And Jesus warned us. There are going to be those. You put the seed out there. And man, there is going to be a reaction.

And it's going to be fast. But it's not going to be real. And I saw that. I experienced that. I was there. I saw it. Now, I don't have any problem. I would not have any problem if we had a special sermon that was specifically for the proclamation of the gospel and encouraged you to bring people.

I would not have a problem in having a quote-unquote invitation in letting people know who they can come and talk to if they have questions about what it means to close with Christ, to believe in Christ.

I wouldn't have any problem with that at all. The problem is I went to a Southern Baptist college, all right? And I went through the homiletics class. I had to preach. I had to do the whole thing. And I read the book, and I went through the training.

And the whole thing was, look, you need to direct your sermon and create your sermon and write your sermon in such a way that you can transition into the invitation. The invitation is everything. That's how you grow your church.

That's how you get converts. That's how you get people saved. And every sermon has to be oriented that way. Folks, there are entire vistas of the New Testament that do not lend themselves in proper exegesis and application to an invitation.

So you have to twist the word. You have to make your, even if you're doing a good job in exegeting the text, you've got to abandon that text to get over to the invitation when that happens. So it's something I've experienced.

I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt, shall we say. So I know what's being talked about here. For some reason we lost the audio there. I'm not sure why. We'll have to stop it here, go back, see if we can get the audio fixed here.

Let's try it again.

Hmm. There it is. So they say Jesus died only for the elect because if he died for the whole world, these people over here that didn't get saved.

Now, hold on just a second here, because I want you to understand. I didn't do anything there. There's just like a dead spot in the audio here. And he went directly from the invitation back to particular redemption.

So if you're thinking I missed something, I'm skipping something, I'm editing something, I'm not. Okay, I'm going to play the whole thing. It's going to pick up right in the middle of something here. Then you're going to hear, this is how it happened.

Is that not an invitation?

So they say Jesus died only for the elect because if he died for the whole world, these people over here that didn't get saved really make Jesus look weak. I don't even understand that way of thinking.

Now, there's one problem.

Limited Atonement, Particular Redemption, and the Sufficiency of Grace

Limited atonement is not in the Bible. Now, if you want to believe that. Now, I'd like to stop right there, because I'd like to explain that. Because I said that. I haven't used that particular terminology, but in my debate with George Bryson, I made that very assertion.

I said, I am so sick and tired of the presentation of Jesus Christ as a weak Savior. As a Savior who does not have the capacity and the power to save his own. I am tired of that. I am tired of the presentation of Jesus standing at the door, knocking.

And he's the milquetoast Jesus. There's no knob on the outside. He can't save anybody unless that person allows him to. I don't believe that. That's not the Jesus of John 6. That's not the Jesus who set his face to go to the cross.

And so, yeah, I will put my hand up and say, I agree. And I would like you to actually explain, please, how you are saying he's not. But he didn't do that because he just sort of moved on. You say, well, I'm still Calvinist.

Well, just one other thing. John Calvin believed in infant baptism. So when you adopt somebody's name, I'm assuming then that you believe in baptizing babies.

That's absolutely, positively ridiculous. And he knows it. He knows it. Of course, I got a chuckle out of Dave Hunt bringing that up against me. In a debate against me, in a written debate against me, he should know where I come down on that issue.

And, of course, I suppose there are some on the other side that will go, yep, you're right. That shows you're not really a Calvinist, even though it's normally the term reformed. They don't want to use of someone who is a Baptist, a person who believes in credo baptism.

But it is absurd to believe that we want to, quote, unquote, adopt a name. What we want to do is we want to be accurate in handling the Word of God. And I've said it many times before. Martin Luther said more about that issue of predestination and election than Calvin did.

The only reason Calvin's name gets attached is because he was such a systematizer. And so, no, it's not a matter of, you know, would it follow that we should then attach Arminius to his name and hold him accountable for everything Arminius said?

I mean, come on. Let's at least recognize these are just words we use to describe general systems of belief. This is where the argumentation started getting a little bit bad. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

You said you're a Calvinist. So that means you adopt all the teachings of John Calvin. I don't want to be called a Calvinist. I would like to be called, I hope, a Christian. That's what I'd like to be called, a Christian.

Well, you say, Brother Herb, I just believe in limited atonement. All right. Let me read you this verse of Scripture and tell me what you're going to do with this. 1 Timothy chapter 4. Just let me read it.

Write it down somewhere. I've got to go quicker. 1 Timothy chapter 4 and verse 10 says, For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God. Now listen to this. Who's the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

Jesus died for the whole world, but His death and His atonement is effectual in those who have saving faith.

And where does that saving faith come from? And what does it mean to be Savior? These are all the issues that, again, I would ask Pastor Revis to actually take the time to address. And I did address them just briefly recently on the blog in response to a discussion of the atonement and so on and so forth.

These are not passages that are in a corner someplace. They are passages that have been addressed many times. But we don't hear those who are going to go against Calvinism taking the time to at least represent accurately the best responses that are offered to it.

What about 1 Timothy 2 and verse 6? Talking about Jesus who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.

That wasn't even the best argument I've heard. Well, it wasn't an argument, was it? It was just a citation. Most start at 2 .4 and go through to 2 .6 and make 2 .6 the bookend argument to 2 .4. How many times do our regular listeners hear us deal with 1 Timothy 2, 4, through 6?

It's in the big three chapter in Potter's Freedom. We've gone over it a million times before. The books that were listed by Pastor Rivas beforehand would have discussions of these issues, would have exegesis, and would ask you the question, Is Jesus Christ the mediator for the same audience that you are proposing for verse 6?

And if He is, then does that bring us back to what we said before, that Christ intercedes for individuals the Father has no intention of saving? Or, even worse in my opinion, the idea that the Father and the Son and the Spirit can determine to bring about the salvation of person X, but they cannot accomplish the salvation of person X without His cooperation.

That, to me, is significantly more offensive than the previous option that I offered.

Well, what about 1 John 2? We've heard all these four, haven't we folks? Oh, a few times. And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Well, there does seem to be some folks in Chandler noticing this. There does seem to be a Southern Baptist way of pronouncing all and world. I was not taught that in Southern Baptist College, thankfully, but there does seem to be a consistency there.

And, of course, I would respond by saying, And what is all the world to John but Jews and Gentiles, Revelation chapter 5, verses 9 and 10? And what does propitiation mean? It would be interesting to ask if propitiation means what propitiation means.

And this is where these folks are so inconsistent, because I'm sure that Pastor Revis would agree with me as to what propitiation means. He's not going to be one of these folks who is going to buy into this liberal idea that propitiation just means expiation or it's just theoretical or whatever.

I'm sure that he would stand with me in saying propitiation is the strongest term we could use. It talks about the removal of not only the cause in the sin of God's wrath, but the wrath itself. It is propitiation.

It is a propitiatory sacrifice. Then why is the wrath of God being revealed from heaven? So that's what got me. That was the thing that hit me upside the head when I was a quote-unquote four-point Calvinist.

I didn't know what that was, but I was uncomfortable with the fifth point. Didn't know much about it. And it was reading, I believe it was Edwin Palmer, asking the question, did Christ's death provide atonement or not?

Yes or no? Not theoretical, real. That's what nailed me, and that's the question I would ask here, too. Is it a propitiatory sacrifice? If it's offered on behalf of somebody, then God's wrath is removed from them.

That's just important. That's just the way it is. Anyway, that's why I would love to be able to ask these questions, but we don't get a chance to do so. Are we going to be able to take a break here? Okay, all right.

I'm going to pick up with Pastor Herb Revis on the other side, and, of course, we get phone calls, 877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back right after this.

A godly man is such a rarity today. So many stars, strong and true, quickly fall away.

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m., and the worship service is at 10 .45.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday, and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org, where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Questions from Frank and the Limits of Patient Engagement

And welcome back to the dividing line, 877 -753 -3341. I want to remind you, I haven't mentioned anything about it for a while, but I want to remind you that over there on the website, sometimes you sort of get used to it.

You probably need to change the picture just to wake folks up a little bit. But it's 2005, and it's January, and we're only talking August of this year. The very end of August is when we're heading up to Alaska, and you don't want to miss this trip.

You don't want to miss this particular opportunity to not only be equipped to respond to the constant attacks upon the sufficiency of scripture that are a part of our society, but you don't want to miss the opportunity of seeing what we're going to get to see on this trip.

So make sure to get to the website and get in touch with the folks you need to talk to who would like to talk to you and answer any questions that you have, explain how everything works, and you want to do that.

So don't forget, hit the website right over there on the right-hand side. I know the blog attracts your attention all the time, especially when there's something interesting there. But over there on the right-hand side, click on the pretty picture of the pretty ship that's not going anywhere at that particular point in time next to the glacier, and that's what we are going to be seeing ourselves.

Those are real pictures. I put a real picture on my blog of one that I took in Glacier Bay. Glacier Bay is just absolutely positively gorgeous. It truly, truly is. Some of you, of course, freezing away in the cold right now, may not want to be thinking about Alaska, but realize this is in August, and I can guarantee you we're going to be looking forward to it, having suffered through it.

Well, August is the hot, humid time here. I know some of you are thinking you don't have humid in Phoenix, but we do. So it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful opportunity, and so make sure that you do that.

I guess we'll go ahead and take a phone call and continue with Pastor Revis, and let's go ahead and talk with Frank in Arkansas. Hi, Frank. Doctor, how are you today? Doing all right. Okay, here's my question.

I know why you do what you do, but what do you think the limit should be? Oddball theories on how to read Scripture. Well, you know, that obviously is going to be dependent upon the individual and the individual's personal level of patience.

I mean, there obviously comes a time in any conversation where you're not accomplishing anything any longer, and it is one of the favorite techniques of many people to drag any conversation out to that point, knowing that eventually any rational person is going to just throw up their hands and say, Look, you're not listening.

Go, See, see, you can't answer. And you have answered repeatedly, but they then have the satisfaction of walking off going, See, he couldn't. I refuted him. You know, I've experienced that many, many times.

There's all sorts of people that have written things that say, See, he didn't respond to me, so I've refuted him. And I've just tried to get used to the idea that I help people to have happy lives, and they're going to need that because they're generally heading into eternal doom.