March 8, 2016 Show with Chris Moles on “The Heart of Domestic Abuse”

Domestic Abuse, Power, and Control in the Church

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of.

Humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all happy Tuesday on this eighth day of March 2016. Domestic abuse and violence are on the rise in our culture today and just as prevalent in the church of Jesus Christ as it is in the population at large.

With an estimated one-fourth of women in the church living with abuse and violence, pastors and biblical counselors need to have the resources to offer hope and help. From his past experience in batterer intervention and his training in biblical counseling, Chris Moules encourages godly men in the church to call abusive men to repentance and accountability through the power of the Holy Spirit.

And he is our guest today, Chris Moules, and he is the author of The Heart of Domestic Abuse, Gospel Solutions for Men Who Use Control and Violence in the Homes. My honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Chris Moules.

My pleasure to be here. And Chris Moules is a certified counselor with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, also known as ACBC, and a certified batterer intervention group facilitator. He works with local criminal corrections and statewide agencies as an instructor and contributor.

He is a regular conference speaker on the topics of abuse and men's issues. Chris is the pastor of Grace Community Chapel in Eleanor, West Virginia, which is a congregation within the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination.

And he serves there with his wife, Kathleen, and two sons. And I'm very, very intrigued about what you have to say today because of the startling statistics that you offer here. And first of all, let me also introduce you to my co-host, who is in studio with me once again, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello, Chris. Good to meet you.

Hey, Buzz. You too, buddy.

And I'm going to give our email address right away. If anybody listening has a question that you'd like to ask on this very sensitive and controversial and very important issue, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And of course, with a topic like this, it's only natural that there may be listeners who would prefer remaining anonymous.

So to keep you more comfortable, if you have a personal question involving this topic that necessitates that you be anonymous, feel free to remain so when you email your question. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Defining Domestic Abuse as Abuse of Power

Now, this may sound like a silly question, but I think that definitions are important because there are people that may accuse others, perhaps their own spouses of domestic abuse. So what would you believe is within the parameters of what is rightly identified as domestic abuse?

That's a great question. I think the umbrella is probably a little larger than maybe we in the church have really allowed it to be. I typically use abuse of power through selfishly motivated patterns of behavior designed to exercise.

So when I'm interviewing or I'm working with individuals who are in destructive relationships, I'm looking for a dynamic in which power used in such a way. In the years I've been working with, we find that abuse that are designed to control their partners.

So I'm typically looking for that use of power.

And that manifest. Now, I'm assuming from what you just said that your book does primarily deal with spousal abuse. I accidentally, when I was chiming in there, said child abuse, but would that be under the umbrella of domestic abuse since those things happen in the home?

Sure. I think you've got a kind of a fine line between legality and as well or domestic violence usually involves victims of domestic violence. It could be with their spouse, more than likely their spouse, but it may involve mother-in-laws who are living there or who are in the house.

So the legal terms are a little bit confusing, but for the biblical counselors and the purpose of the book, I deal specifically with men's violence against women or husband's violence against lots.

And why did you get involved in this study. To begin with, even in your own career, it seems? This has been an integral part of your studies and your counseling and so on. How did this all.

Come about? Well, I'd say that it's a three-pronged reality. My friend's persistence and then my greed. And here's how I lay that out. I was working in corrections. I have no background in criminal justice.

So at the time, I had been teaching life skills and parenting, primarily to drug offenders in our day report system, when my now co-facilitator and friend came to me and asked if I would be willing to help her start this batterer intervention program for men convicted three times.

She told me how much they paid. And that's where I think God used my friend's persistence and then, of course, his providence to guide me into this. And I'm so glad that he did. Obviously, it's been a tremendous part of who I am now.

I've been doing this for nearly a decade. And at the same time, I began my graduate studies in biblical counseling. And so it allowed me to do my papers and research and projects on domestic abuse. And that's when I became aware how little the church has offered except that.

And I'm.

Excited now to be a part of it even more. I just want to read an endorsement for this book by Dr. Stuart Scott, professor of biblical counseling at the Master's College and adjunct faculty at Southern Seminary.

And many of our listeners would know immediately both of those institutions. In the heart of domestic abuse, Chris has provided a much-needed resource for ministers and counselors that is both biblical and practical.

It is a great resource for our times. He addresses the heart and behavior, giving solid hope and practical instruction for change through the gospel and biblical principles. In this great work, Chris has done much to help women who suffer because of controlling and angry men, for the man who is overtaken by the sin, and for those who want to help.

I will make good use of this resource in counseling and will recommend it in my counseling training. And as I said, that's Dr. Stuart Scott, professor of biblical counseling at the Master's College and adjunct faculty at Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Self-Examination, Heart Motives, and Biblical Patterns of Abuse

And what are some of the signs that not only, well, let's start with some of the signs, the initial signs, that a man, a husband, should recognize in himself that he is abusing his wife because she may be even too frightened to make that charge against him.

And that may sound also like a ridiculous question, but I think that when we are involved in sin ourselves, we are often blinded to what we are doing. And a man, a Christian man, may think that he is just following his biblical mandate to, you know, be head of his household.

He, you know, maybe because he has never physically hurt his spouse, he doesn't think he would be guilty of such a charge. And I think this is a good question, especially since he may be able to, by God's mercy, nip this in the bud before it develops into something physically violent.

But what would be some initial signs that a man could recognize in himself? You're right on in that self-reflection.

Am I participating and quick to offer a defense if I minimize my behavior and highlight my wife's behavior? Those are some that say, hey, back up for a second, or if I'm quick to minimize my own behavior.

Because we want, um, I get a lot of pushback who claim that hierarchy is really, but then I understand, not treat us that way. At the same time, there is, and so that's where that self-reflection comes into play.

Now, one of the things I often highlight, paying attention to Jesus's words in Matthew, when he's an evil man, evil from the evil stored up in his heart, from the overflow of the heart, the man speaks.

And in the book, I highlight several tactics of power and control, and I equate it back to my grandparents having an apple tree in their backyard. I know it's an apple tree because.

My mom made apple pie for a man. Why don't you go through those tactics? You know, yeah, so.

If I took all the apples off the apple tree and stapled bananas in their place, it wouldn't be a banana tree. And so we have to see the revealer of the heart, not necessarily the end game. And so some of those tactics, sexual violence, name-calling, sexually demoralizing language, I think about an Ephesians 4 type of principle, or a Colossians 3 principle of husbands love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

This is kind of irony to a lot of guys I work with who haven't thought about their words as having power. But we're told that the word, so we want to, other avenues are, that's a way that we manipulate, or we don't really have reasons why when Paul to each other, husband and wife, we need to understand that throughout the book.

And unfortunately, as you no doubt are aware, there's the old story of the boy who cried wolf, and it is tragic that there are some women out there who fake charges of domestic violence or abuse just because they're either getting vengeance or they are trying to manipulate a relationship in a certain way to gain power, knowing that the police may frighten her spouse or what have you.

And unfortunately, that undermines the real cases where women are truly being brutally savaged at times, you know, being not only physically tortured and beaten, but even raped and all kinds of horrific things.

And I'm sure that women who are the true victims are more angry about those things, those false accusations than anybody else. But if you could comment on how often or what percentage, if there is a way of telling such a thing, are these cases of false accusation and slander?

To my knowledge, there's no limit to it.

Other than that provided, unfortunately, there are several.

And just so we can obviously acknowledge that it exists, what percentage that you are aware of is the situation where the husband in the household is the one who's being abused? There are, I mean, obviously, the woman is a weaker vessel, and that is typically the case physically, but it's not always the case.

You may even have a husband who has some kind of disability, or he may be older than his wife, a lot older than his wife, or all kinds of scenarios. And in fact, I even knew of a case that had some television attention.

In fact, even a movie was made about it, where there was a husband who was a victim of spousal abuse, because he really took seriously the moral teachings of his upbringing, that you never hit a woman.

And he was basically a punching bag, because his wife knew that he would not retaliate physically. And I know that that is not the focus of your book, but I was just curious if you knew anything statistically about that.

Statistically speaking, and again, it's estimated about our women, leaving about 15%. Things I've read that include these are secular. Yes, there are. But at the same time, just like you, everyone knows what we're talking about.

It's about 95%. Again, while there are actually violence of other men, about 70. That's why I address men in particular. I think if we address this as a men's issue, we'll have far greater rate of success.

We do have a listener in San Antonio, Texas. Jeremy, who says, I am beginning counseling with a 16-year-old boy who has sexually abused his sisters. Does Chris have thoughts on where I should begin?

And I know that this is not the subject also of your book, the heart of your book, but very good question. Very chilling circumstance there. Well, I would say that not.

Knowing the circumstance, the dynamics of power and control will probably be significant. This young man understands control and take as thorough an inventory as I can. Of not just sexual assault, it's the shiniest, it's the most glaring.

And so it draws our attention to see all the fruit of a tree and then look for any habit that assists him and then drag him into it.

Mandatory Reporting, Victim Safety, and Church Discipline

Now, just out of curiosity, I don't even know if it's the same in every state in the union, but is this counselor, he actually is a, he describes himself as a pastor in his note to me. Uh, is he legally bound to report this child or are the parents and is there an age where that might be required and so on?

I always encourage people to develop a working.

Legal, yes, when it comes, whatever their local age are mandated to report. One of the interesting things is a lot of pastors that I've talked with reporting a disclosure and actually to follow the victim's lead, to give them, if we go to the authorities in the case of domestic abuse, child children or elder abuse, we could actually put the victim in more danger.

If no charges are filed, if the police do not intervene or if they simply give up, that could actually put the victim in more danger.

And well, I guess it would magnify the problem of a spousal abuse situation. If the husband is not a member of the church where the woman may be a member, if the husband is not even a believer and does not have any regard for the authority of the elders of the church that the wife might be a part of, has no respect for their counsel and so on, and has really isolated himself from that kind of discipline, what would be some of the advice for a church and an abused spouse in a situation like that?

One of my favorite things about Romans chapter 12, I don't see anything wrong with a church partnering with victim's advocates, prosecutor's office, law enforcement. I often encourage pastors to find someone in law enforcement and just take them out the line.

Police officers tend to be connected to every agency because they're in the field and they can at least point you in the right direction.

And of course, it would create a whole new subject for a different program, but unfortunately you also have the leftist agenda of government having more and more of a foothold where you could have people getting their children removed from them by getting social services involved in problems in the home when there may be, depending upon what state you're in, issues of a child being a homosexual or at least having a proclivity that way, and parents being Christian who oppose that view.

But obviously that's a whole different topic for another time. Going over to the other situation where you have a couple that are both members of a church, where do you think actual discipline is necessary in regard to a husband and his being guilty of being an abuser?

Because obviously this kind of a thing may develop in increments. And if he's just had occasion to yell at his wife or something, that may not be grounds for church discipline. But where do you draw the line where you say, all right, enough is enough?

You have got to be under church discipline. And if you don't stop this, you may be excommunicated from the fellowship of this church.

Yeah, I strongly encourage elders, nothing would thrill me. And he said, while we're here, we've got to talk about this. And he brought up a statement by Bethlehem Baptist about domestic abuse, and it kind of put people on notice.

So I think the first thing you do is have a conversation about it, because one of the pitfalls, and we talk about the failure of the government, which is so true, but the church itself, this area, many times as well, we see a disclosure brought forth.

And in the process of discipline, treating it as a marriage problem rather than a heart problem. And when there's no restitution, no real movement made, I've seen victims be disciplined for pursuing divorce as they dealt with it as a marriage problem.

So I highly recommend the elders define the topic, define their terms, bring in a consultant, wink, wink, who can help you all through that process. Yes, maybe something so serious has happened. So those are things that need to happen.

And certainly, I'm a big fan.

And by the way, Jeremy in San Antonio, Texas, you're getting a free copy of Chris Moll's book, The Heart of Domestic Abuse, Gospel Solutions for Men Who Use Control and Violence in the Home, compliments of Focus Publishing.

So get us your full mailing address, and we will send that to you right away.

Separation, Abuse, and the Theology of Suffering

I know, Chris, one of the, I would hate to be in a position in a church of counseling a woman, for example, to separate from her husband. But I imagine there are situations for her safety where that has to be done, even if divorce isn't an issue.

Could you address that?

Sure. I think that's another discussion. That the elders, I think, that's a discussion that has, when we throw marriage-focused solutions at abuse, we tend to make things worse. And I try to imagine it with my trainees as a hurdle race in trapping field, that you have to clear each hurdle in the process of finishing the race.

And what we have a tendency to do is we avoid hurdle one, which is his use, of course, of control. I'm convinced that true restoration will never happen until we deal with his abuse. And our churches and the church in recent years, God is doing great.

In this case, I believe we need to balance that theology of suffering with a theology of oppression, that while a victim, the church is still obliged to oppose the offender. So that will require us sometimes putting ourselves between the oppressive individual and those being oppressed.

And that may require separation. Now, to what extent the church is willing to go will be a discussion that the elders can have. But there are some thoughtful works out there, such as Barbara Roberts' book, Not Under Bondage, and a small booklet by Our Daily Bread, the discovery series called God's Protection for Women, that can help us think through that, whether we agree wholeheartedly or not.

We do have an anonymous listener who says, my husband loves me, I know it, but he is very abusive mentally. He controls everything that occurs in our home, including the selection of furniture and decor that we purchase.

I feel like nothing more than his sexual companion, and I don't know if he is really violating any biblical mandate where he could be put under discipline because he has not physically abused me, and does demonstrate love in other ways.

What should I do about this circumstance?

Well, not knowing the entire case, you obviously have each identity that we have. It's also emotional. We emote because God emotes. And when another person coercively and aggressively controls that, if we're walking on education, that's not really reflective, I don't think, of what God's called us.

Yeah, I would be able to confront, in a loving and gracious way, your husband and hold him accountable to some of these realities that we see in Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, 1 Peter 3, what have you, these ideas of living with you in an understanding way.

And anonymous listener, if you give me your mailing address, I will send you a free copy of this book by our guest, The Heart of Domestic Abuse, and in fact, a thought just occurred to me, if you would prefer I mail it to your pastor, because I don't know what would happen if her husband got this in the mail, that might be a wise thing too, but I'll leave that decision up to you if you want to email me your mailing address for this free book.

Learned Abuse, Hope for the Violent Man, and Salvation for Abusers

Is it statistically more often that a spousal abuser either witnessed his own father abusing his mother, or in fact, maybe was just an abused child himself?

The jury's still out on that. What we find, this is in a claim to have been abused, that number will drop to private interview or a written interview, which just goes to show how manipulative the men are using that as a means to try.

What's really interesting, I have to say, is that abuse is a learned behavior. We can learn it from it. I'm walking in the woods, which is something we do quite frequently down here in West Virginia. If I'm walking in the woods, it's the easiest to take, but it's not the only way to get you home, and that worldview of entitlement and pride, yeah, the odds are, you know, there are other individuals who never experience abuse, and yet they learn through trial and error that it works to get them what they want.

In fact, our groups, we often use what causes fights and quarrels among you. It's your evil desires that work within you. We do what we do because we want what we want, and so we often highlight our behaviors in line with our motives.

And I really, before the time runs out, because I know you have to leave us early, I really want you to make sure that you leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before the broadcast, or at least before your interview is over.

Well, I can tell you right now the catchphrase that I use most often.

And I know that you do offer in your book hope for the abuser, the violent man. Of course, since Saul of Tarsus was a murderer of men and women, and he was rescued from that by God himself and made into the great apostle that he became, writing more of the New Testament than any other author, biblically inspired by the Holy Ghost, of course.

But obviously, if there was hope for the Saul of Tarsus, there is hope for even the most violent of husbands out there.

I often say, I ask the question, did Jesus die for violent men? And the answer is quite, and it's not to say that it's...

And I just want to, we do have an anonymous listener. I want to make sure I get her question is in before the program is over, before our interview is over. She wants to know, what is the best type of a hotline for victims of abuse to call when they may not even be members of a church or have Christian friends they can rely upon?

Something that is not going to be steering that person in the wrong direction with pop psychology or other secular resolutions to these very serious problems?

Yeah, as far as finding a meeting, immediate interview, 799 .8. And what contact information do you care to provide for yourself today to our listeners? Oh, yeah. So, you can go to my website, chrismowls .org.

I guess you disagree radically with what Andy Stanley said recently.

The statement was mentioned from the pulpit on Sunday, but I did not mention his name. Prepared to lead the church of the future, because I believe the church of the future will look a lot more like the one that we're presently leading.

I think small, mobile, stealthy congregations will be the way to the future, and hopefully our children will be prepared to lead that church because they're used to it. I don't give out my phone number because we don't have a church landline or a secretary.

And I've done that in the past, and I usually get bombarded with calls on my cell phone. So, the best way to contact me is through my website. And if anyone is interested, I'm just now launching some online courses in domestic violence prevention and intervention, and you can find all of that at chrismowls .org.

Well, I appreciate that very much, and there are some other people whose questions we did not have time to get to because you had to leave early today. We understand that, but we are going to give the number that has been allotted to us away to you who are waiting for your questions to be answered.

So, make sure you give us your mailing addresses. And for other people who are interested in this book, The Heart of Domestic Abuse by Chris Mowles, go to focuspublishing .com. Focuspublishing .com. It was a delight to have you on to discuss a very sensitive but vital issue, Chris Mowles, and we hope to have you back on Iron Trump and Zion in the future.

Great. I'd love to come back. Thank you, guys. It's been a real pleasure.

Thank you, and I just want to let everybody know that we're going to be back after these words from our sponsors, and it's going to be an interesting development here what we are going to do for the next hour because my second guest has had to postpone his interview with us, Joe Thorne.

Many of you are looking forward to his defense of the use of confessions of faith and catechisms and so on and creeds. In the Christian Church, there are many evangelicals and fundamentalists who look at that as either adding to the God-breathed words of Scripture and then violating, therefore, that Scripture alone is our only source of infallible authority, that is, inerrant authority, and there are others that just view a confession or a creed or catechisms as too binding and rigid because they want more freedom amongst the congregation to have differences of opinion or what have.

You.

But we are definitely going to revisit that subject at some point very soon because it is a vital one. Joe and I misunderstood each other as to what time he was going to be on because of him being in the Central Standard Time and me being in Eastern Time, so we will have Joe back on the program when the Lord enables.

But I urge you to look up his website, JoeThorne .net. Joe Thorne, and there's no E at the end, JoeThorne .net. And we're going to be right back after these messages, so we will have, most likely, a rerun that we're going to air for you.

But don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages and let you know what we're going to do today.

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Jews, the Passover, and the Need for Messiah

Shua, House of Jesus on Long Island, New York, a born-again Jew who served his Messiah very faithfully for probably close to 50 years. And Marty, he was a dear friend. He was somebody that was with me through thick and thin.

Somebody I could call and really open up my heart and share with him trials and tribulations that I had gone through. And he was such a gentle soul, a wise soul. And we had disagreements over matters of theology here and there.

Marty was a dispensationalist. I am not. And although Marty might say that he was not theologically reformed or Calvinist, there was very rarely a word that came out of his mouth when he was teaching that I didn't believe was in full harmony with the things that I believed, especially in regard to soteriology.

I'm not necessarily talking about eschatology here. But soteriologically, things that are involving salvation and the fact that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, in Christ alone and the heart of the gospel and God's sovereignty and so on, those things were really a strong part of Marty's gospel presentations and his own personal belief.

So in just about seven or eight minutes, I'm going to play an interview that I had with Marty a number of years ago. In fact, it was in 2010, March 10th of 2010, which really, providentially, is not far from the day that we are, the date that we are in now today, just two days away.

That was just completely providential. I didn't plan that at all, as you heard before, when I said that my guest had to bail out today and offer to come back because of a scheduling mix-up that we were both confused about the time.

But in the next five minutes or so, I know that my co-host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has been itching to interview me. So perhaps I'll let him do that for five minutes or so. And if I have to pull the plug on it quicker than that.

I'll try to keep it clean.

What else would it be? Anyway, go ahead, Buzz.

Well, first of all, there may be some people wondering where did this guy come from? Not you, I'm talking about, you know, who is this co-host thing? And I just want to bring people up to speed on what's been going on here.

Sure.

Chris graciously allowed me to co-host with him because of some temporary things in my schedule where I am employed, but not working due to some medical things that are almost over now. I've been able to have the time available to be here on the program, and I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

I spent some time in radio locally, and it's just great to get back behind the mic, but it's great to talk to God's people. And it has been a learning experience for me. But the thing that people might, you know, from what I've heard of your program up to this point, for the last few weeks, we've had a wonderful time talking to our guests, but I'm not sure people know a lot about what you do.

You do a lot more than this.

I do?

Sure.

He's a connoisseur of the finer culinary arts in the local restaurants.

Yeah, and believe it or not, those of you who have never been to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, if you never thought that would be possible, especially those in New York City, who you've got some of the finest restaurants on the planet Earth there.