March 8, 2016 Show with Chris Moles on “The Heart of Domestic Abuse”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of.

Humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all happy Tuesday

on this eighth day of March 2016.

Domestic abuse and violence are on the rise in our culture today and just as prevalent

in the church of Jesus Christ as it is in the population at large.

With an estimated one -fourth of women in the church living with abuse and violence, pastors and

biblical counselors need to have the resources to offer hope and help.

From his past experience in batterer intervention and his training in biblical counseling,

Chris Moules encourages godly men in the church to call abusive men to repentance and

accountability through the power of the Holy Spirit.

And he is our guest today, Chris Moules, and he is the author of The Heart of Domestic

Abuse, Gospel Solutions for Men Who Use Control and Violence in the Homes.

My honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Chris Moules.

My pleasure to be here.

And Chris Moules is a certified counselor with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, also known as

ACBC, and a certified batterer intervention group facilitator.

He works with local criminal corrections and statewide agencies as an instructor and

contributor.

He is a regular conference speaker on the topics of abuse and men's issues.

Chris is the pastor of Grace Community Chapel in Eleanor, West Virginia, which is a

congregation within the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination.

And he serves there with his wife, Kathleen, and two sons.

And I'm very, very intrigued about what you have to say today because

of the startling statistics that you offer here.

And first of all, let me also introduce you to my co -host, who is in studio with me once again,

Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello, Chris. Good to meet you.

Hey, Buzz.

You too, buddy.

And I'm going to give our email address right away.

If anybody listening has a question that you'd like to ask on this

very sensitive and controversial and very important issue, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And of course, with a topic like this, it's only natural

that there may be listeners who would prefer remaining anonymous.

So to keep you more comfortable, if you have a personal question

involving this topic that necessitates that you be anonymous, feel free

to remain so when you email your question.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Now, this may sound like a silly question, but I think that definitions are

important because there are people that may accuse others, perhaps their

own spouses of domestic abuse.

So what would you believe is within the parameters of

what is rightly identified as domestic abuse?

That's a great question.

I think the umbrella is probably a little larger than maybe we in the church have

really allowed it to be.

I typically use abuse

of power through selfishly motivated patterns of behavior designed to

exercise.

So when I'm interviewing or I'm working with individuals who are in

destructive relationships, I'm looking for a dynamic in which power

used in such a way.

In the years I've been working with, we find

that

abuse that are designed to

control their partners.

So I'm typically looking for that use of power.

And that manifest.

Now, I'm assuming from what you just said that your book does primarily deal with spousal

abuse.

I accidentally, when I was chiming in there, said child abuse, but would that be under the umbrella of domestic

abuse since those things happen in the home?

Sure.

I think you've got a kind of a fine line between legality and as

well or domestic violence usually

involves victims

of domestic violence.

It could be with their spouse, more than likely their spouse, but it may involve mother -in -laws

who are living there or who are in the house.

So the legal terms are a little bit confusing, but for the biblical

counselors and the purpose of the book, I deal specifically with men's violence

against women or husband's violence against lots.

And why did you get involved in this study.

To begin with, even in your own career, it seems?

This has been an integral part of your studies and your

counseling and so on.

How did this all.

Come about?

Well, I'd say that it's a three -pronged reality.

My friend's persistence and then my greed.

And here's how I lay that out.

I was working in corrections.

I have no background in

criminal justice.

So at the time, I had been teaching life skills and parenting, primarily to

drug offenders in our day report system, when my now co -facilitator and

friend came to me and asked if I would be willing to help her start this batterer intervention program

for men convicted three

times.

She told me how much they paid.

And that's

where I think God used my friend's persistence and then, of course, his providence to guide me into this.

And I'm so glad that he did.

Obviously, it's been a tremendous part of who I am now.

I've been doing this for nearly a decade.

And at the same time, I began my graduate studies in biblical counseling.

And so it allowed me to do my papers and research and projects on domestic abuse.

And that's when I became aware how little the church has offered

except that.

And I'm.

Excited now to be a part of it even more.

I just want to read an endorsement for this book by

Dr. Stuart Scott, professor of biblical counseling at the Master's College and

adjunct faculty at Southern Seminary.

And many of our listeners would know immediately both of those institutions.

In the heart of domestic abuse, Chris has provided a much -needed resource for ministers and

counselors that is both biblical and practical.

It is a great resource for our times.

He addresses the heart and behavior, giving solid hope and practical instruction

for change through the gospel and biblical principles.

In this great work, Chris has done much to help women who suffer because of controlling and

angry men, for the man who is overtaken by the sin, and for those who want to help.

I will make good use of this resource in counseling and will recommend it in my counseling

training.

And as I said, that's Dr. Stuart Scott, professor of biblical counseling at the Master's

College and adjunct faculty at Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

And what are some of the

signs that not only, well, let's start with some of the signs, the

initial signs, that a man, a husband, should recognize in himself

that he is abusing his wife because she may be even too frightened

to make that charge against him.

And that may sound also like a ridiculous question, but I think that when we are involved in

sin ourselves, we are often blinded to what we are doing.

And a man, a Christian man, may think that he is just following his

biblical mandate to, you know, be head of his household.

He, you know, maybe because he has never physically hurt

his spouse, he doesn't think he would be guilty of such a charge.

And I think this is a good question, especially since he may be able to, by God's mercy, nip this in

the bud before it develops into something physically violent.

But what would be some initial signs that a man could recognize in himself?

You're right on in that self -reflection.

Am I participating

and quick to offer a

defense if I minimize my behavior and highlight

my wife's behavior?

Those are some that say, hey, back up

for a second, or if I'm quick to minimize my own behavior.

Because we want, um, I get a lot of pushback who

claim that hierarchy is really, but then I

understand,

not treat us that way.

At the same time, there is, and so that's where that self

-reflection comes into play.

Now, one of the things I often highlight, paying attention to Jesus's words

in Matthew, when he's an evil man, evil from the

evil stored up in his heart, from the overflow of the heart, the man speaks.

And in the book, I highlight several tactics of power and control, and I equate it back to my

grandparents having an apple tree in their backyard.

I know it's an apple tree because.

My mom made apple pie for a man.

Why don't you go through those tactics?

You know, yeah, so.

If I took all the apples off the apple tree and stapled bananas in their place, it wouldn't be a banana tree.

And so we have to see the revealer of the heart, not

necessarily the end game.

And so some of those tactics, sexual violence,

name -calling, sexually demoralizing

language, I think about an Ephesians 4 type of principle, or a Colossians 3 principle of husbands love

your wives and do not be harsh with them.

This is kind of irony to a lot of guys I work with who haven't thought about their words as having power.

But we're told that the word, so we want to, other avenues are,

that's a way that we manipulate, or we

don't

really have

reasons why

when Paul

to each other,

husband and wife,

we need to understand that throughout the

book.

And unfortunately, as you no doubt are aware,

there's the old story of the boy who cried wolf, and it is

tragic that there are some women out there who fake

charges of domestic violence or abuse just because they're either getting

vengeance or they are trying to manipulate a relationship in a certain way to gain

power, knowing that the police may frighten her spouse or what have you.

And unfortunately, that undermines the real cases

where women are truly being brutally savaged at times, you know,

being not only physically tortured and beaten, but even raped and all kinds of

horrific things.

And I'm sure that women who are the true victims are more angry about those things, those false

accusations than anybody else.

But if you could comment on how often or what percentage, if there is a way of telling such a thing,

are these cases of false accusation and slander?

To my knowledge, there's no limit to it.

Other than that provided, unfortunately, there are several.

And just so we can obviously acknowledge that it exists,

what percentage that you are aware of is the situation where the

husband in the household is the one who's being abused?

There are, I mean, obviously, the woman is a weaker vessel, and that is typically the case physically,

but it's not always the case.

You may even have a husband who has some kind of disability, or he may be older than his wife, a lot older

than his wife, or all kinds of scenarios.

And in fact, I even knew of a case that had some television

attention.

In fact, even a movie was made about it, where there was a husband who was a

victim of spousal abuse, because he really took seriously the

moral teachings of his upbringing, that you never hit a woman.

And he was basically a punching bag, because his wife knew that he would not retaliate physically.

And I know that that is not the focus of your book, but I was just curious if you knew anything statistically about that.

Statistically speaking, and again, it's estimated about

our women, leaving

about

15%.

Things I've

read that include these

are secular.

Yes, there are.

But

at the same time, just

like you, everyone knows what we're talking about.

It's

about 95%.

Again,

while there are actually

violence

of other

men, about 70.

That's why

I address

men in particular.

I think if we address this as a men's issue, we'll have far greater rate of success.

We do have a listener in San Antonio, Texas.

Jeremy, who says, I am beginning counseling with a 16 -year -old boy

who has sexually abused his sisters.

Does Chris have thoughts on where I should begin?

And I know that this is not the subject also of your book, the heart of your book, but very

good question.

Very chilling circumstance there.

Well, I would say that not.

Knowing the circumstance,

the dynamics of power and control will probably be significant.

This young man

understands control

and take as thorough an inventory

as I can.

Of not

just sexual assault,

it's the shiniest, it's the most glaring.

And so it draws our attention to see all the fruit of a tree

and then look for any habit that assists him and then drag him into

it.

Now, just out of curiosity, I don't even know if it's the same in every state in the union,

but is this counselor, he actually is a, he describes

himself as a pastor in his note to me.

Uh, is he legally bound to report this child or are the parents and is

there an age where that might be required and so on?

I always encourage people to develop a working.

Legal, yes, when it comes,

whatever their local age are

mandated to report.

One of the interesting things is a lot of

pastors that I've talked

with reporting a disclosure and actually to

follow the victim's lead, to give them, if

we go to

the authorities in the case of

domestic abuse, child children or elder abuse,

we could actually put the victim in more danger.

If no charges are filed, if the police do not intervene or if they simply give up,

that could actually put the victim in more danger.

And well, I guess it would magnify the problem of a

spousal abuse situation.

If the husband is not a member of the church where the woman may be a

member, if the husband is not even a believer and does not have any regard for the

authority of the elders of the church that the wife might be a part of, has no respect

for their counsel and so on, and has really isolated himself from that

kind of discipline, what would be some of the advice for a church and an

abused spouse in a situation like that?

One

of

my

favorite

things about Romans

chapter 12, I don't see

anything wrong with a church partnering with

victim's advocates,

prosecutor's office, law

enforcement.

I often encourage pastors to find someone in law enforcement and just take them out the line.

Police officers tend to be connected to every agency because they're in the field and they can at least

point you in the right direction.

And of course, it would create a whole new subject for a different program, but unfortunately you also

have the leftist agenda of government

having more and more of a foothold where you could have people getting their children removed from

them by getting social services involved in problems in the home when there may

be, depending upon what state you're in, issues of a child

being a homosexual or at least having a proclivity that way, and parents being Christian who

oppose that view.

But obviously that's a whole different topic for another time.

Going over to the other situation where you have a couple that are both

members of a church, where do you think actual discipline

is necessary in regard to a husband and his

being guilty of being an abuser?

Because obviously this kind of a thing may develop in increments.

And if he's just had occasion to yell at his wife or something, that may not be grounds for

church discipline.

But where do you draw the line where you say, all right, enough is enough?

You have got to be under church discipline.

And if you don't stop this, you may be excommunicated from the fellowship of this church.

Yeah, I strongly encourage elders,

nothing would thrill me.

And he said, while we're here, we've got to talk about this.

And he brought up a statement by

Bethlehem

Baptist

about domestic abuse, and it kind of put people on notice.

So I think the first thing you do is have a conversation about it, because one of the pitfalls,

and we talk about the failure of the government, which is so true, but the church itself, this area,

many times as well, we see a disclosure brought forth.

And in the process of discipline, treating it as a marriage problem rather than a heart problem.

And when there's no restitution, no real movement

made, I've seen victims be disciplined for pursuing divorce as they dealt

with it as a marriage problem.

So I highly recommend the elders define the topic, define their terms, bring in a

consultant, wink, wink, who can help you all through that process.

Yes,

maybe something so

serious has

happened.

So those are things that need to happen.

And certainly, I'm a big fan.

And by the way, Jeremy in San Antonio, Texas, you're getting a free copy

of Chris Moll's book, The Heart of Domestic Abuse, Gospel Solutions for Men Who

Use Control and Violence in the Home, compliments of Focus Publishing.

So get us your full mailing address, and we will send that to you right away.

I know, Chris, one of the, I

would hate to be in a position in a church of counseling a woman, for example, to separate from her husband.

But I imagine there are situations for her safety where that has to be done, even if divorce

isn't an issue.

Could you address that?

Sure.

I think that's another discussion.

That the elders, I think, that's

a discussion that has, when we

throw

marriage

-focused

solutions at abuse, we tend to make things worse.

And I try to imagine it with my trainees as a hurdle race in trapping field,

that you have to clear each hurdle in the process of finishing the race.

And what we have a tendency to do is we avoid hurdle one, which is his use, of

course, of control.

I'm convinced that true restoration

will never happen until we deal with his abuse.

And our

churches

and the church in recent years, God

is doing great.

In this case, I believe we need to balance that theology of suffering with a theology of oppression,

that while a victim, the church

is still obliged to

oppose the

offender.

So that will require us sometimes putting ourselves between the oppressive individual

and those being oppressed.

And that may require separation.

Now, to what extent the church is willing to go will be a discussion that the elders can have.

But there are some thoughtful works out there, such as Barbara Roberts' book, Not Under Bondage,

and a small booklet by Our Daily Bread, the discovery series called God's Protection for Women,

that can help us think through that, whether we agree wholeheartedly or not.

We do have an anonymous listener who says, my husband loves me, I know it,

but he is very abusive mentally.

He controls everything that occurs in our home, including the selection

of furniture and decor that we purchase.

I feel like nothing more than his sexual companion, and I don't know

if he is really violating any biblical mandate where he could be put under discipline

because he has not physically abused me, and does

demonstrate love in other ways.

What should I do about this circumstance?

Well, not knowing the entire case,

you obviously have

each

identity

that we

have.

It's also emotional.

We emote because God emotes.

And when another person coercively and aggressively controls that,

if we're walking on education, that's not really reflective, I don't think,

of what God's called us.

Yeah, I would be able to confront, in a loving and gracious way, your

husband and hold him accountable to some of these realities that we see in Ephesians 5, Colossians

3, 1 Peter 3, what have you, these ideas of living with you in an understanding

way.

And anonymous listener, if you give me your mailing address, I will send

you a free copy of this book by our guest, The Heart of Domestic Abuse, and in fact,

a thought just occurred to me, if you would prefer I mail it to your pastor, because I

don't know what would happen if her husband got this in the mail, that might be a wise thing too,

but I'll leave that decision up to you if you want to email me your mailing address for this free book.

Is it statistically more often that a spousal

abuser either witnessed his own father

abusing his mother, or in fact, maybe was just an abused child himself?

The jury's still out on that.

What we find, this

is

in a

claim to have been

abused,

that number will drop to private interview or a written interview, which

just goes to show how manipulative the men are using that as a means to try.

What's really interesting, I have to say, is that abuse is a learned

behavior.

We can learn it from it.

I'm walking in the woods, which is something we do quite frequently down here in West Virginia.

If I'm walking in the woods, it's the easiest to take, but it's not the only way

to get you home, and that

worldview of entitlement and pride, yeah, the odds are, you know,

there are other individuals who never experience abuse, and yet

they learn through trial and error that it works to get them what they want.

In fact, our groups, we often use what causes fights

and quarrels among you.

It's your evil desires that work within you.

We do what we do because we want what we want, and so we often highlight our behaviors in line with our motives.

And I really, before the time runs out, because I know you have to leave us early, I really want you to make sure that you leave our

listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before the broadcast, or at least before your interview is over.

Well, I can tell you right now the catchphrase that I use most often.

And I know that you do offer in your book hope for the

abuser, the violent man.

Of course, since Saul of Tarsus was a murderer of

men and women, and he was rescued from that by God himself

and made into the great apostle that he became, writing more of the New Testament

than any other author, biblically inspired by the Holy Ghost, of course.

But obviously, if there was hope for the Saul of Tarsus, there is

hope for even the most violent of husbands out there.

I often say, I ask the question, did Jesus die for violent men?

And the answer is quite, and it's not

to say

that it's...

And I just want to, we do have an anonymous listener.

I want to make sure I get her question is in before the program is over, before our interview is over.

She wants to know, what is the best type of a hotline for

victims of abuse to call when they may not even be members of a church or have

Christian friends they can rely upon?

Something that is not going to be steering that person in the wrong direction with

pop psychology or other secular resolutions to these very serious

problems?

Yeah, as far

as finding a

meeting,

immediate

interview, 799

.8.

And what contact

information do you care

to

provide for

yourself today to

our listeners?

Oh, yeah.

So, you can go to my

website, chrismowls

.org.

I guess you disagree radically with what Andy Stanley said recently.

The statement was mentioned from the pulpit on Sunday, but I did not mention his name.

Prepared to lead the church of the future, because I believe the church of the future will look a lot more like the one that

we're presently leading.

I think small, mobile, stealthy congregations will be the way to the future, and

hopefully our children will be prepared to lead that church because they're used to it.

I don't give out my phone number because we don't have a church landline or a secretary.

And I've done that in the past, and I usually get bombarded with calls on my cell phone.

So, the best way to contact me is through my website.

And if anyone is interested, I'm just now launching some online courses in

domestic violence prevention and intervention, and you can find all of that at chrismowls .org.

Well, I appreciate that very much, and there are some other people whose questions we did not have

time to get to because you had to leave early today.

We understand that, but we are going to give the number that has been allotted to us away to

you who are waiting for your questions to be answered.

So, make sure you give us your mailing addresses.

And for other people who are interested in this book, The Heart of Domestic Abuse by Chris Mowles,

go to focuspublishing .com.

Focuspublishing .com.

It was a delight to have you on to discuss a very sensitive but vital

issue, Chris Mowles, and we hope to have you back on Iron Trump and Zion in the future.

Great. I'd love to come back.

Thank you, guys.

It's been a real pleasure.

Thank you, and I just want to let everybody know that we're going to be back after these

words from our sponsors, and it's going to be an interesting development here what we

are going to do for the next hour because my second guest has had

to postpone his interview with us, Joe Thorne.

Many of you are looking forward to his defense of the use of confessions of faith and

catechisms and so on and creeds.

In the Christian Church, there are many evangelicals and fundamentalists who look

at that as either adding to the God -breathed words of

Scripture and then violating, therefore, that Scripture alone is

our only source of infallible authority, that

is, inerrant authority, and there are others that just

view a confession or a creed or catechisms as too

binding and rigid because they want more freedom amongst the

congregation to have differences of opinion or what have.

You.

But we are definitely going to revisit that subject at some point very soon because it is a

vital one.

Joe and I misunderstood each other as to what time he was going to be on

because of him being in the Central Standard Time and me being in Eastern

Time, so we will have Joe back on the program when the Lord enables.

But I urge you to look up his website, JoeThorne .net.

Joe Thorne, and there's no E at the end, JoeThorne .net.

And we're going to be right back after these messages, so we will have, most

likely, a rerun that we're going to air for you.

But don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages and let you know what we're going to do today.

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Shua, House of Jesus on Long Island, New York, a

born -again Jew who served his Messiah

very faithfully for probably close to 50 years.

And Marty, he was a dear friend.

He was somebody that was with me through thick and thin.

Somebody I could call and really open up my heart and share with him

trials and tribulations that I had gone through.

And he was such a gentle soul, a wise soul.

And we had disagreements over matters of theology here and there.

Marty was a dispensationalist.

I am not.

And although Marty might say that he was not theologically reformed

or Calvinist, there was very rarely a word that came out of his mouth when he was teaching

that I didn't believe was in full harmony with the things

that I believed, especially in regard to soteriology.

I'm not necessarily talking about eschatology here.

But soteriologically, things that are involving salvation and the fact that we are saved by grace

alone through faith alone, in Christ alone and the heart of the gospel and God's

sovereignty and so on, those things were really a strong part

of Marty's gospel presentations and his own personal belief.

So in just about seven or eight minutes, I'm going to

play an interview that I had with Marty a number of years ago.

In fact, it was in 2010, March 10th of 2010,

which really, providentially, is not far from the day that we are, the date that we are

in now today, just two days away.

That was just completely providential.

I didn't plan that at all, as you heard before, when I said that my guest had to

bail out today and offer to come back because of a scheduling mix -up that we were both confused

about the time.

But in the next five minutes or so, I know that my

co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has been itching to interview me.

So perhaps I'll let him do that for five minutes or so.

And if I have to pull the plug on it quicker than that.

I'll try to keep it clean.

What else would it be?

Anyway, go ahead, Buzz.

Well, first of all, there may be some people wondering where did this guy come from?

Not you, I'm talking about, you know, who is this co -host thing?

And I just want to bring people up to speed on what's been going on here.

Sure.

Chris graciously allowed me to co -host with him because of some temporary things in my schedule

where I am employed, but not working due to some medical things that are almost over

now.

I've been able to have the time available to be here on the program, and I have thoroughly enjoyed

it.

I spent some time in radio locally, and it's just great to get back behind the mic,

but it's great to talk to God's people.

And it has been a learning experience for me.

But the thing that people might, you know, from what I've heard of your program up to this

point, for the last few weeks, we've had a wonderful time talking to our guests, but I'm

not sure people know a lot about what you do.

You do a lot more than this.

I do?

Sure.

He's a connoisseur of the finer culinary arts in the local restaurants.

Yeah, and believe it or not, those of you who have never been to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, if you never thought that would be possible,

especially those in New York City, who you've got some of the finest restaurants on the planet Earth there.

Carlisle has a number of really fine eating establishments that rival New York City.

But anyway.

Yes, and Chris is always comparing them.

They don't have anything like this in New York, or they have the better than this in New York.

But anyway, everybody knows you do iron sharpens iron.

Of course, you've been doing this for how long now?

Well, I started the show in approximately 2006.

Sometime, I can't give you the exact month, but the show ran

until 2011.

My wife, Julie, went home to glory at the age of 56,

and that was such a devastating thing for me that I put my program on

hiatus.

I stepped away from the mic.

As many of my listeners already know, because I've been pretty transparent about this,

I fell back into the sin of perpetual drunkenness,

habitual drunkenness.

Some people call that alcoholism.

Well, I'm not going to go bananas or be overly critical of people

using certain terms, but I always found that that was too clinical sounding.

So I just prefer to call it what the Bible calls it, drunkenness.

And I went to a ministry in Boone, North Carolina

called Hebron Colony Ministries, the oldest, I believe

it's the oldest ministry for men suffering

with addiction problems that is still in existence.

And the Lord used that ministry, Hebron

Colony Ministry, mightily in my life, restored me not only to sobriety, but also

to a right relationship with my church that had very appropriately put me under church discipline.

And I even interviewed my own pastor on the subject of church discipline.

And I don't know if that had ever been done in the history of radio before, but I, who was under

discipline, and after being restored to fellowship, interviewed my own pastor who placed me

under discipline, because people have a misconception that this is some kind of

a mean -spirited, cruel or harsh thing, or that that's the end

of the story.

And, you know, people automatically think that they're never going to have a right relationship with

the church again after such a thing.

The whole purpose of that is restoration, as I'm sure you agree.

Yes, yes, of course.

And then after moving here to...

Well, I wanted to put a few little, fill in a few of those blanks too, because Chris had called my

former pastor needing a ride from a train station when he was coming to Carlisle to visit a

family here.

And it fell on me to go get him from the train station.

That's where I met him.

And I've been his, what do you call it, designated driver ever since.

But we've become friends since then.

And of course, we're not talking about that.

We're talking about you.

You do more than Iron Sharpens Iron now.

You sell radio programs.

I sell radio programs to other individuals, ministries, and

churches on various radio stations throughout the country.

And I sell advertising.

That has actually been my primary career for nearly 30 years, selling

advertising and block program time.

And you also organize debates and whatnot

and speaking tours for certain friends.

I mean, you keep quite active in these kinds of places.

Yeah, I organize live public events that include

theological debates.

I have orchestrated probably 20 or more live public moderated

theological debates between most of them, between my friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega

Ministries, who is a world -renowned apologist and author and scholar, New Testament Greek

scholar, the best debater I have ever heard, because it takes a very

specific skill to be a debater.

It is not enough to be brilliant, because there are many brilliant articulate people who are

prolific writers and so on, and maybe good preachers, but debating is

a very unique skill unto itself.

And so the debates began as primarily, well, actually, they began

exclusively as evangelical versus Roman Catholic debates, and then

began to include in that debates that Dr. White had with Muslims

and anti -Trinitarians, like a woman that's Pentecostal, for instance, one of the leaders in that movement,

Art Sabin, and I believe I said Muslims

already, and liberal Protestants, homosexual activists

or pro -homosexual individuals like

Barry Lynn of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

He is the president of that organization and is an ordained United Church of Christ

minister, which is the most liberal of all the Protestant denominations, unless, of course, you include

Unitarian Universalists.

I don't know if you could really consider that Protestant, but they would be fairly neck and neck

when it comes to leftist theology, ideology, and, of course, I would consider them to be both

apostate groups.

But so that is the primary thing that I am doing outside of my own radio program

as far as church activity or spiritual theological

activity would be the organizing of conferences and debates.

And I'm glad that our friendship has lasted

these six years, and although I think it's probably going to come to an abrupt end any minute now.

It hasn't been six years.

Wow.

Yeah, I believe it's been five or six years.

My goodness.

But I really value your sitting in with me on the program as a

co -host, and I hope that, Lord, when your own

vocation kicks up again and you have less time available to do this, I hope that we

still find time on occasion for you to get behind the mic and co -host with me.

I will look for it.

And right now, as I said, I am going to play an

interview that I conducted with my dear friend Marty Fromm, who is now in heaven.

Marty Fromm, a Jewish believer of the founder...

Well, actually, he wasn't the founder, but he was a leader in a ministry called Beth Yeshua.

It was founded by someone before him, but he had been operating it as a leader for

quite a number of years on Long Island.

And a dear friend interviewed him a number of times, always had such fun doing so.

And without further ado, here is a blast from the past, from the Iron Trip and

Zion Archive from 2010, Marty Fromm on the subject, Jews with no temple,

where is their sacrifice?

Where is their hope?

And I hope that you are blessed by this

program that I said was providentially recorded

on March 10th of 2010, which is only two

days away from the anniversary date of that interview.

So here we are with Marty Fromm, and God bless you folks, and I hope that you join us tomorrow.

Today, we are going to be addressing a very, very important theme.

We're going to be addressing Jews with no temple, where is their sacrifice?

Where is their hope?

This is to prepare us to discuss very important

matters with our Jewish friends, loved ones, and neighbors as Passover approaches.

Passover begins on sundown on March 29th.

And to discuss this very vital theme with us tonight is Marty Fromm.

He is no stranger to the Iron Trip and Zion audience.

He's a frequent guest in our program.

Marty Fromm is the founder of Beth Yeshua Ministries.

Currently worshiping in Plainview, Long Island at the Olive Tree Congregation.

And this is a congregation of Jew and Gentile who worship the one

true Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ in spirit and truth.

And they are going to be having their own Passover demonstration

the day before Passover, Sunday, March 28th.

And we're going to be giving you details about how you can attend this Passover demonstration at the Manor East

in Massapequa, Long Island.

The Manor East, which is a catering hall in Massapequa, Long Island, New York on the borderline of Suffolk and

Nassau County.

We would love to hear from you and your questions for Marty Fromm regarding the question,

Jews with no temple, where is their sacrifice?

Where is their hope?

You want to pick up the phone during the station break.

Call your family, friends, and loved ones, especially if they're Jewish and perhaps even if they

are Gentiles who have a passion to evangelize the Jewish people

with the gospel of Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ.

And have them tune in to hear this program anywhere on the planet Earth via live streaming.

We would love to hear from you and your questions about Passover, about Jesus Christ

fulfilling the prophecies of the Messiah, about what is a Jew with no temple to do.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orens and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you just tuned us in tonight, our guest tonight is Marty Fromm.

He is the founder of Beth Yeshua Ministries located in Plainview, Long Island.

They meet at the facilities of the Olive Tree Congregation on 88 Southern

Parkway in Plainview and they are going to be having a Passover demonstration

two Sundays from now.

And tonight we are going to be addressing the theme as we prepare to intelligently

interact, evangelize, and discuss the most important questions of life with our Jewish friends,

family, and loved ones and neighbors.

What is a Jew to do with no temple, no sacrifice?

Where is his hope?

And it's my honor and privilege to have you back on Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend of many years, Marty

Fromm.

Hey Chris, how you doing tonight?

I'm doing great.

The only thing that I am lamenting is that you're not sitting right next to me as you usually are when you do the program.

I just love the fellowship.

Yeah, I would have loved it but I'm a little incapacitated.

By the way, you know, your introduction, you mentioned that it's a show where you have

theologians and scholars and that we're going to intelligently discuss something.

You should also tell your audience or warn them and once in a while a little Jew from the Bronx isn't

quite in the same league.

Well, I think you're in the same league, Marty.

First of all, we will repeat this towards the end of the program but tell us about the event you are having on

Sunday, March 28th at the Manor East Catering Hall in Massapequa, Long Island.

Yeah, you know, the first thing and I hate to contradict you in any way.

I appreciate your faithfulness and your support and everything over many, many years but it's

really a Passover Seder more than a demonstration because we actually

sit down to the Passover meal.

We read from the Haggadah which is the traditional book that explains the story

of the Passover and we, you know, do everything

basically that Jewish people have been doing for centuries but then we demonstrate the

fulfillment of those practices that we've been doing all these years in a

spiritual sense to show how this points ultimately to our faith in Messiah

Yeshua, the Lord Jesus.

In fact, the book that we use, Haggadah for your listening audience, the

book Haggadah actually means the telling and it is a book that draws

many, many, many scripture verses that relate or tell the story of the

Passover.

So Lord willing, we'll be doing that on the 28th.

It's open to everybody.

It's at a beautiful catering called the Manor East and we

subsidize the cost of the Passover dinner and music and everything so that it's only

$20 per person but we have to get commitments this

week because we obviously have to let the caterer know you know, what the headcount

is to be and you know, the set of the tables and everything else.

Well, we will repeat that information towards the end of the program and you can also go to

Marty's website which is bethyeshuany .org.

That's Beth Yeshua,.

B -E -T -H -Y -E -F -H -A I'm sorry, Y -E -S -H -U -A

N -Y for New York dot O -R -G.

B -E -T -H -Y -E -F -H -U -A -N -Y dot O -R -G.

Marty, before we even go into the crucial question of our program tonight, what

is a Jew to do with no temple and no sacrifice?

Tell us, first of all, what that Passover, that first Passover was all about and why it was

necessary.

Well, you know, God had called out a people unto himself

and we are not elitist in thinking for one moment

that the Jewish people or the people of Israel are any better or different

or worthier or smarter, maybe better looking,

than any other people on the face of the earth.

But God singled out a people who were the least of all the nations to

demonstrate to the world what could happen in the lives of people, no matter

how small and insignificant, when God takes control of that people, gives

them his law, his word, brings them to an understanding of who he

is and how that impacts our lives so that there's a difference

between holy and profane, a difference between informed and uninformed, a difference between

people who have a spiritual thirst and those who are totally

without God or without any understanding.

So he chose to start the nation

in a very dramatic way, responding to 420 years of slavery in

Egypt to bring them out en masse and to make it that

dramatic through the miracle of various plagues that he brought upon

Pharaoh and the Egyptian people, ultimately to the slaying of the firstborn, to the

parting of the sea where the power of the Egyptian army drowned in that

sea, and then brought them into a land of promise and hope

after providing manna to sustain them through 40

years during the wilderness.

As I recall, Chris, 7 -Eleven didn't have any stores

in the middle of the desert, so God had to intercede and provide

for all our needs.

So all these things were done not only to be a testimony to Israel,

to realize that their God is an awesome God, but to demonstrate that same truth to

all the nations in the land of Canaan and all over, that the awesome God of

Israel kept his promises, preserved his people,

and did mighty and awesome acts in order to provoke those

people to emulation so that ultimately not just the Jew, but the Gentile,

the pagan, the heathen, whatever, all would have the opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth

and the blessing of having a relationship with the God of Israel.

And obviously, as many folks can remember, even those that are not Christian or

typically religious in any way, for those of you who may even remember

something as simple as watching the classic movie, The Ten Commandments,

starring the late Charlton Heston, there was an angel of death involved

in the first Seder, the first Passover meal.

And if you could explain that whole circumstance.

Well, what God had indicated to Israel is that he wants obedience

and not just lip service.

He indicated to the children of Israel that what we call the malachim of us, the angel of

death or the death angel, was going to pass over all the houses within the

land, including Israel and all the land of Egypt.

And he says, as a testimony, as an understanding that they were obedient to the call of God.

He indicated that each family would be responsible to take

a lamb, to slay it, to take the blood from that lamb and put it on the

lintels and the doorposts of their homes.

And he indicated that wherever the malachim of us, the death

angel, would see the blood as a token of the obedience of the people, he would Pesach,

which is the Hebrew for the word Passover, but literally to

exempt or exempted the homes that were marked or covered

by the blood.

And wherever that blood was not, you know, plainly shown, as

God had demanded, the firstborn in that home

was to suffer the plague of death.

And of course, you know, a very devastating situation.

But again, God wants us to understand that we are responsible to follow his

instruction and he doesn't bring judgment without providing us with the

opportunity to listen and to understand that there are dire consequences to

disobedience and great blessings for our obedience.

And of course, you know, Chris, we always try to remind people in a little

story that Rich Saxon, who used to pass the Beth Yeshua

out east for us, where there was a

firstborn young man in the home who says, Papa, are we going to take

the lamb and slay it and put the blood on the doorpost?

And Papa says, you know, we don't have to do that.

We're going to take the lamb, we'll tie him up outside and God knows our intentions.

So it's really not necessary to literally go through,

you know, the slaying of that poor little lamb.

And little Izzy looks up, Papa, is it okay if I sleep by Uncle Yankle tonight?

I remember the first time you said that story.

But this is serious though, because, and we will even get more clear on how serious,

that is intended to be a joke, but there's a serious point behind it.

Now, this Passover meal didn't end there.

This has continued on for thousands of years.

Even until after the Lord Jesus Christ himself was crucified, correct?

Oh, absolutely.

Which is one of the reasons.

See, Chris, I want your audience, who may not be familiar, to be

fully aware of the fact that Beth Yeshua is a messianic outreach, but we

are not a legalistic outreach.

We are people who have come to faith in Yeshua.

We understand completely why we are saved by faith, through the grace, the unmerited

favor of God.

It's not based upon any ordinances or acts of righteousness,

what we call mitzvot, good deeds.

It is strictly predicated upon God's grace.

So we hold the Passover not as a

testimony to our faithfulness to the law, but as a reminder

of what it represents, because the Word of God said that it should be kept throughout our

generations.

When Jesus ultimately came to that point at the Passover Seder, and

let's remember, it was a Passover Seder that Jesus took the bread and the wine, and he says,

this bread is my body, which is broken for you.

And he says, take this cup, this is the blood of the new covenant, and the blood that is

shed for you.

And he explained, therefore, as long as you do this, as oft as you do this,

you do show the Lord's death till he come.

So therefore, the Passover became a demonstration of

an important spiritual fulfillment that we are now no

longer under the law, but we want to show the Lord's death.

We want to recognize that it is the atoning death of Yeshua, Jesus,

that gives us the promise of eternal life, the promise of the hope,

and to realize that we will spend eternity with him because of

the provision that he made, and we do not do something as an

act of righteousness, as I said, but again, in total realization that

this is God's glorious plan to be that testimony to Israel and

to the world, and to hopefully provoke people to that understanding

that they would be partakers with us.

And that's why we have a Passover Seder for all people, both

Jewish and non -Jewish people, so that number one, for

those who are already saved to believe in Jesus, received him as Lord and Savior,

it reinforces the roots of what their faith represents, and it

provides them with a greater opportunity to reach out to lost people to show

the majesty and the magnitude of God's love and goodness in using this tool as a

device to foster a better understanding and bring salvation.

Now, it's very clear, isn't it, Marty, that Jesus Christ fulfilled Old

Testament prophecy, and he was pictured in that lamb that was

sacrificed every year by faithful Jewish homes.

He is that lamb, is he not?

Well, without a doubt, and of course, you're playing the shill

to give me an opportunity to respond to something that important, and I'm glad you do.

But I just want to remind you, and perhaps some of the listening audience,

a number of years back, I wrote a book called Unto Us the Son is Given.

The premise of that book, Chris, was that,

and let me just interject, I was blessed with a beautiful twin

sister who passed away some probably 12 years

ago.

When she was dying, the Lord put this upon my heart to write a book to

reach unsaved Jewish people.

Unfortunately, nobody in my family had ever

made a profession of faith, and I wanted to

really reach unsaved Jewish people that they would not have

that concern that I did.

Premise of the book is, and I think, and

Chris, I'm not being egotistical, I hope you realize

that and that your audience, but I think it's an extremely well presented case for any

person who is honestly and sincerely looking for the truth, whereby

I use only the Hebrew scriptures, what we call the Tanakh, the Torah, the Nevi 'im,

the Ketuvim, the five books of Moses, the

writings of the prophets, and the, what do you call it, the Ketuvim,

the various books that all testify and prophesy of the coming of the

Messiah.

You know, let's face something, Chris.

As Jewish people, we are told that we are a separated nation, and

the Mashiach is the hope for the eternity of Israel and for eternal life,

and the Mashiach is the deliverer, the redeemer, the one that is going to

restore Israel as the head and not the tail, to usher in the reign of

peace, the days of Messiah, and there has to be a reason

why are we told this, and how would we know and recognize a Messiah if he

indeed were to come?

So God did not leave us without a means of making that determination.

So throughout the various books of the Tanakh, of the Hebrew scriptures,

he gives us more and more definitive explanation and

understanding so that we could understand the Messiah in terms of his nature, his

person, his attributes, his timing, his purpose, his objectives.

So all these things are in the scriptures, and as I said, Chris, I think it's

indisputable for any honest seeker of truth using the Hebrew

scriptures, and in fact, if any of the listening audience would like to

purchase this book, we only charge $5 to cover our cost, plus

another $2 .50 for shipping and handling, and if anybody, you know, wants to

send a check to Beth Yeshua at 88 Southern Parkway,

Plainview 11803, they can order the book and perhaps they'll find it helpful

and informative in reinforcing what we're talking about this evening, Chris.

Yeah, in fact, we're going to go to a break right now, and when we return, if you could further bolster the point that

Jesus Christ is indeed the Passover Lamb.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Marty Fromm.

Transcribed by https://otter .ai.

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That's wrbc .us.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arntzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest tonight is Marty Fromm, founder of Beth Yeshua Ministries in Plainview,

Long Island, New York, a congregation of Jew and Gentile who worship the one true Lord God and Savior,

Jesus Christ, together in spirit and truth.

And we are discussing the very important question, what is a Jew to do with no temple and no

sacrifice?

Where is his hope?

And as Marty was saying before the break, Jesus Christ is clearly the fulfillment

of Old Testament prophecies for the Messiah, in addition to being

the one who was indeed pictured for those thousands of years in the slaying of a

perfect spotless lamb during the Passover meal.

If you could pick up from there, Marty.

Okay, Chris.

You know, John, the baptizer, made a declaration,

Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

Well, John was a Jew, and John was making reference to Hebrew

scripture.

There was no such thing as New Testament at that point in time.

So he obviously was referring to something to which Jews could relate.

There was a Messiah who was to come, and that Messiah is the Lamb of God who takes away

the sin of the world.

Obviously, this goes all the way back to the Passover, because Jesus is the Passover Lamb,

the Lamb without spot, without blemish, and the one whose blood sanctifies and brings us into

that saving relationship.

Now, for example, Chris, in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, which

was written, you know, more than 700 years before the coming of the Messiah, it says

that he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before

Hashirah's dung, so he openeth not his mouth.

He is taken from prison and from judgment, and who shall declare his generation?

For he is cut off out of the land of the living.

For the transgression of my people was he stricken, and he made his grave with the wicked and the rich in

his death, because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

God has put him to grief, and when you make his soul your offering for sin, he

shall see his seed prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of the soul and shall be satisfied.

So clearly Isaiah is prophetically indicating hundreds of years

prior to the actual event on Passover that he would be led as a lamb

to the slaughter, he would be cut off out of the land of the living, and that his soul was to be the

offering for sin.

So this also addresses the question that you started this,

you know, this evening with when you talk about the need for the blood sacrifice,

and where are Jews today if there is no longer the Levitical system

of the, you know, the sacrifice, the shedding of the blood, the altar, and all of this.

Your audience would stop and think David had it in his heart to build

what we call the base mikdash, the holy house or the temple.

Solomon ultimately was called upon by God because he didn't have blood on his hands, that he would

build this base mikdash, but Solomon used a very clear expression.

He said this is a zevach, a base zevach.

It's a house of sacrifice, that the sacrificial system was essential in

order to provide reconciliation, redemption, atonement, what have you.

Now in the Haggadah that we read on the occasion of the

Passover, if I will, if I may, Chris, it says the Paschal Lamb, which our

ancestors ate during the existence of the temple, for what reason was it eaten?

Because the omnipresent, blessed be he, passed over the houses of our ancestors in

Egypt, as it is said, you shall say it is a sacrifice of

the Passover of the Lord.

And in the Hebrew, it says, v 'amartem zevach

pesach, hu ladunoi asher pesach al b'tei b 'nei yisrael.

So in other words, where it says it is a sacrifice, it is a zevach pesach.

So just as we had the base zevach, the house of sacrifice while the temple

stood, and while they sacrificed the lambs at the temple, it was again to

point out that this temple was a house of sacrifice.

Since the destruction of the temple, and there no longer being an altar,

there was the realization that all of these things were

preordained and provided as a means of connecting the dots.

If you could, for one second, we'll pause there, because we do have a caller on the line, Marty.

Sure, sure.

Please give us your first name and the city and state you're calling from.

Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Okay, my first name is Steven, and I'm calling from Deer Park, New York.

Okay.

What state is that in?

Deer Park, New York.

Deer Park Fusion.

I was just going to say state of confusion.

Well, actually, you know me, Chris.

I'm Steve Horowitz.

Oh, yes.

Hi, Steve.

Yeah.

How are you doing?

Good.

I hope you and your family are blessed and doing fine.

Thank you.

I have a question as to the church's theology that's going around nowadays, which says there's

a replacementism that the Jews don't have to be preached to about Jesus, and that they

have their own separate salvation.

Can Marty go through that, and how important it is that that really is such a

false theology going around that the Jews nowadays, as far as it was many years ago, needs to

know who...

Yeah, perhaps like towards the end of the program, we could have Marty address that.

Like, for instance, I know that Pastor Hagee, I believe, is telling people that they don't have to evangelize the Jews.

Yeah.

But we're kind of at a crucial point in the Passover story, so if you could have him explain that a little bit towards the end, Steve.

All right, that'd be fine.

I appreciate it, Steve.

Thanks for calling.

By the way, Steve, have you...

I know you were co -hosting here once, but did you ever win one of our Genuine Leather Bibles?

All right, why don't you go to my website, and you look for where it says, Contact Chris Arns on the right side of the screen.

You have to scroll down and click on that, and you will...

If you give me your mailing address, we'll make sure you get a free Genuine Leather New American Standard Bible.

Oh, that'd be great.

Thanks a lot.

All right, thank you.

Now, Marty, the destruction of the temple, before we just glide over that, that was something that Jesus Christ himself

prophesied in the New Testament, correct?

Yes.

Again, all of the provision in the Hebrew Scriptures,

what you call the Old Testament, was to, as Paul said,

bring about an awareness that the Lord is our schoolmaster to bring us to

Messiah.

So, in other words, the sacrificial system was a system where

an innocent animal was put to death, and the blood of that

innocent, pure animal

to shed its blood as a means of atonement.

Leviticus 17 .11 says, For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and it is

the blood on the altar that makes atonement for the soul.

So therefore, Paul was able to conclude without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

Now, the Lord wanted us to know that that was a

temporary provision, but to bring about an understanding

that the innocent suffers for the guilty, so that the guilt

is imputed to the innocent, and the innocence

and purity of the sacrificed one is imputed to the one

offering the sacrifice who is, in fact, the sinner.

And this is the picture he wanted us to have of Yeshua, of Jesus.

Jesus, who was without sin, and the scriptures are very, you

know, clear to remind us, he was in all points tempted as ourselves, but

was without sin.

Even those who brought him on trial, if you recall, it says, Behold, we bring

him forth so that ye shall know we find no sin in him.

So he is the picture of the innocent lamb, the innocent sufferer,

and however, he is put to death in our behalf, his

blood is shed to cleanse us from our sin.

So therefore, we see the concept of the vicarious

suffering in the innocent animal is carried through to Yeshua.

This is also reflected, Chris, which you well know, in what we call the

Akedah, or the binding of Isaac.

Isaac was innocent.

He wasn't guilty of any sin, but he was to be brought

to a mount that God told Abraham that he was

to be sacrificed.

And let me just correct myself.

He wasn't being told to be sacrificed because of a specific sin.

He wasn't sinless.

The nature.

Right, right, right, yes.

But ultimately, when Isaac said to his father, I see the

fire and the wood, where is the lamb for the offering?

And Abraham's response, of course, is my son, the Lord will provide

himself a lamb for the offering, or a ram for the offering.

So even there, we're shown very definitively that God will provide

himself the lamb.

So he himself had to be the vicarious sufferer.

And through his vicarious atonement, there would be

reconciliation with God.

So that the object lesson here with Isaac is, God doesn't want

your physical death.

He wants your spiritual death, your submission to his way.

And that's what Isaac was committed to live because God provided the means to which the atonement

could be made.

And that's why we're told by Paul that he says, I beseech you therefore, brethren,

by the mercies of God, to render your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and

acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

So we are living sacrifices who are spiritually

submissive, so that we crucify the flesh.

So we're spiritually crucified and risen

with him and alive in Messiah on a spiritual level.

And the Roman armies destroyed the temple

and the Jewish people were then left in a huge dilemma.

This is a crucial point in history because this sacrifice that they

relied upon for centuries and centuries was now brought to an abrupt halt.

What did the Jews, where did they find their hope

then?

And where do they find their hope now?

Well, again, this can be very debatable

and you have to take the whole picture and go through the scriptures to lay a foundation.

But basically, we come back to the simple

truth, without the shedding of blood, there's no remission of sin.

The consequence of that is that the Jewish people to this

day have a tremendous dilemma.

Some of it is answered by those who foolishly and

without any substantiation whatsoever, they simply conclude, since there is

no provision for the shedding of blood, for the sacrifice, for the provision for

the altar in Jerusalem, etc., that it isn't that important to begin with.

Well, again, that's a very nice theory.

It sounds very intellectual and clever, but we're in the scriptures.

Can you support that?

The Word of God doesn't say, well, it's not so important.

I'm giving you an ordinance throughout all your generations, but don't worry about it.

And you would have never said that as an Orthodox Jew prior to 1870.

You never would have said that.

No, absolutely not.

So the dilemma is, how do we reconcile this?

And that's where we have to realize that the Word of God tells us, study to show thyself

approved, the workman unto God, who needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of

truth.

So you go back to the Word of God, and the Word of God says, there has to be a blood sacrifice.

And this blood sacrifice brings us to the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

A Jew who meets all the messianic

provision that is demanded by the scriptures.

Somebody who had to come, and incidentally, he had to come before the

destruction of the temple.

That was essential.

Why?

Because who comes at this point, after the destruction of the temple, there were no

genealogical records, no means of proving what the scriptures indicate.

The Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.

He must be from the house of David.

He must be from the tribe of Judah.

So all these things are laid out in scripture to give us a means of

making that identification.

Yeah, that's an excellent point, because how could you, if a future Messiah is expected

or hoped for, how could that genealogical record be traced today?

Exactly, exactly.

That's an excellent point.

We have to go to our final break, and this is your final opportunity to call with a question about the Passover.

And we look forward to hearing from you after these messages, so don't go away.

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Welcome

back.

This is Chris Arns.

And we're discussing Christ the Passover Lamb with Marty Fromm of Beth Yeshua Ministries in Plainview, New York.

We have a caller on the line, Palmer in Bayshore, Long Island.

Welcome to Ironsharpensiron.

Hi, Chris.

My question is, there seems to be some confusion, even among Christian circles, as to the

way of salvation.

Some say that a Jew can get to heaven or be saved by some other way than by the

blood of the cross.

By the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross.

My question is, could you state clearly and

unequivocally how a person can be saved?

And is it the same way for both a Jew and a Gentile?

Excellent question, Marty.

Yeah, well, by all means.

Let me just finish my thought because it will tie you into that.

Sure.

Uh, as we said, the blood sacrifice is absolutely

essential.

Originally in the sacrificial system, ultimately in the atoning sacrifice

of Jesus.

So we have to understand, therefore, that the word of God tells us without

any equivocation that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

The same Lord over all is Lord unto all who call upon his name.

So he didn't say there's one rule for a Jew and another rule for the non -Jewish people.

The rule is the same for all.

Without the blood, without the concept of the atonement, without the

realization that Jesus died for your sin, we have to conclude

that God means what he says.

He says what he means.

And he says the only way to the father is through the son.

So whether you're a Jew or a Gentile, you don't have a choice.

It's not all roads lead to Rome and that everybody's, you know, got their own

way.

There's only one way.

It's very exclusive.

It's the word of God.

And like I said, he means what he says.

In fact, where I say that there are those Jewish people who deny the necessity

of the shedding of the blood and that understanding, yet the great

rabbis of the ages, they write and in the Masor or in the

prayer books for the holidays, it says that we first to diminish our blood

in place of the blood that was shed upon the altar.

For though we have no blood and we have no water, we have no remission of

sin.

So obviously the great Jewish minds fully understood they needed the blood atonement

and to say that a Jew could be saved outside of that relationship

would be, you know, completely unscriptural.

And it also begs the question that if God says there's only

one way, how do we conclude differently?

He says, all have sinned and I've fallen short of the glory of God.

There is none that do with good.

So if we are all sinners, as the word of God says, or since we are all sinners,

then the only means of righteousness is the gift of God and Jesus is the

gift of God.

A grace is the gift of God and that's the means that he has provided for both Jew and

Gentile.

And to tie in Steve's earlier question, Pastor Hagee is one who

professes to be a Christian and yet is denying the crucial truth of Christianity, the

main truth of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.

No one comes to the Father, but through him.

And yet Pastor Hagee is offering hope to Jews by being faithful to the law for their

salvation.

Well, he's right.

If they could keep the law, there is nobody who can keep it.

That's exactly right.

Nobody can.

That's the point.

And that's why Christ had to come and be crucified on Calvary 2000 years ago.

And a follow -up question is what happens to Jew or Gentile who is not saved, who does not

come to faith in Yeshua as the Messiah, as the God, the Son?

Very good question.

It's the same fate, isn't it, Marty?

Yeah, well, again, the word of, see, you know, what Paul is alluding to, there are those

people, even in evangelical circles, that have strayed from the truth and

inerrancy of scripture.

And they say there isn't a hell or hell isn't a place of torment for ever

and ever.

But what they're doing is they're taking license to take the clear teaching of the word of God

and to apply a spiritual meaning where we

understand what is the literal sense and that where it makes

sense and God expresses it in that way, what right do we have to

change it into symbolic or spiritual teaching?

It is strictly the understanding says they will be tormented for ever and ever.

So there is a heaven, there is a hell, and God is

merciful enough to bring us to an understanding that we have the choice

which we will choose, but he does tell us which choice to make in order to be

recipients of the glorious blessings that he has in store for us.

And to understand, if you choose differently, you have the right to make that choice, but that means you have the right

to receive the punishment that comes from your

disobedience, your arrogance, and your pride that keeps you from

doing it the way God had said.

And it's like Frank Sinatra saying, I did it my way.

I don't expect to see Mr. Sinatra in heaven because he did it his way.

You do it God's way and then you could expect to see them in heaven.

Hey, Palmer, it's great to have you back in our audience.

I haven't heard from you since we changed times and please let everybody know that you know

that Iron Sherpa's Iron is now on at six o 'clock at night.

And I hope to hear from you again, Palmer.

God bless you.

Thank you, Palmer.

And we do have time for perhaps one more question if you call quickly.

And this brings us to another crucial question that C .S. Lewis

posed, the Christian fiction writer and

philosopher in the earlier part of the earlier half of the 20th century.

C .S. Lewis said that if Jesus Christ made those

profound claims about himself in the New Testament and received worship,

uh, he is either a lunatic, a liar or Lord.

There is no really old alternative that many Jews today, perhaps mainly to

be politically correct and to not get their Gentile friends to dislike them or despise

them.

They'll say that Jesus, although he is not their Messiah, he was a wonderful man, a

good man, a good teacher, philosopher, et cetera.

You can't have that view of Jesus with the claims that he made unless he was,

was and is the Lord, God and Messiah, correct?

Absolutely.

He holds us feet to the fire and you can't have it both ways.

Marty Fromm, it's been a pleasure as always to have you back on the program.

And please remind our listeners how they can attend this Seder celebration two Sundays from

now on March 28th in Mesa Piqua.

Okay, just get in touch with Beth Yeshua 516 -513 -0964,

516 -513 -0964 or contact us at 88 Sutton Parkway

in Plainview 11803.

And the website once again is Beth Yeshua NY .org.

B -E -T -H -Y -E -S -H -U -A N -Y for New York dot O -R -G.

Marty, I look forward to having you back on the program, brother.

It's always a pleasure and a blessing to speak with you.

Same here, my friend.

God bless.

God bless you.

And don't forget to go to that website also to investigate Marty's books and to purchase

them and you will be blessed.

I'm certain.

I want to thank everybody who listened tonight, particularly those who called in.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.

God bless.