November 29, 2023 with William Shishko on “Christian and Liberalism: Celebrating the 100th Anniversary” (Part 2)

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day of November 2023.

And I am thrilled, as I always am, to have back on my program a returning guest who has been featured on this broadcast many times, and he happens to be one of my dearest and oldest friends going back to the 1980s when

I first received the gift of eternal life through the grace and mercy and blood of Jesus Christ.

And his name is Pastor Bill Shishko, and he is pastor of The Haven, which is a church plant of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination in Comack, Long Island, New York. And today is part two of a discussion that we began on Reformation Day, October 31st.

Part two of the discussion that we began celebrating the 100th anniversary of the classic work by J.

Gresham Machen, which is Christianity and Liberalism. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Bill Shishko.

Hey, Chris, it's so good to be back with you. I'm excited about this program, as I am about every program with you.

And by the way, I just realized when I remembered our previous interview on this subject, that I have for decades been mispronouncing

J. Gresham Machen's name. And if you could correct me on which part of his name

I'm mispronouncing. It's Gresham. You got it right. It's actually Gresum, not

Machen. That's what it was, Gresum. Well, I've been making the mistake of calling him

Dr. Machen, and I never got a doctorate. But we conferred an honorary doctorate on him. Everybody else confers honorary doctorates, so we can do it.

Amen. Well, first, before we go into the topic at hand, which is, as I said, part two of our celebration of the 100th anniversary of Christianity and Liberalism, tell our listeners about that wonderful congregation in Comac, Long Island, The Haven.

Well, I'm privileged to be the organizing pastor for Mission Church of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, 16 Oak Lawn Drive, Comac, New York, the upper northwest corner of Suffolk County on Long Island.

And we'd love to have you worship with us. Our worship is at 10 a .m. on the Lord's Day, and we have what we call

Sunday Seminary at 12, 15, and Haven Food and Fellowship on most Sundays at 1 o 'clock.

But we'd love to have you worship with us. And I truly enjoyed, beyond my ability to describe in the

English language, my first visit to The Haven close to a year ago,

I guess it was. And I hope to have many more opportunities to visit that wonderful congregation and worship with you.

I had many opportunities of fellowshipping with you when you were pastoring the

OPC in Franklin Square, but that was the first time I had visited

The Haven in Comac, where you are now pastoring. And I just love that church. I love the way you worship.

And I love the liturgy without being dry and robotic, a lot of lively and enthusiastic and passionate liturgy there.

Liturgy with life. Yes, amen. So if anybody lives near Comac, you're passing through, or you have family, friends, and loved ones there, go to thehavenli .com,

thehavenli, for Long Island, .com, and you can find out all the information that you need.

Well, let's have an overview, for the sake especially of our listeners who did not hear part one of our conversation on Christianity and liberalism that we conducted on October 31st.

Let's have an overview of this class. Well, it's interesting, Chris, that since we had our last program about a month ago,

World News Group—and I commend, as I know you do, World News Group for journalism that really seeks to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ—but they made

J. Gresham Machen's Christianity and Liberalism, which came out in 1923, they have declared that Book of the

Year for 2023, apparently with no debate among them, which is really something.

I think that they recognize—I'll use the word prescient here—this is a book that really not only describes the situation in Machen's day, but as we're going to learn in the second half of the program today, it is very eerily prophetic of what we're experiencing today.

Christianity and liberalism is a masterpiece of popular scholarship and logic.

I find it interesting, Chris, that H. L. Machen, who was a fellow Baltimorean with Machen, Machen did not believe any of what

Machen believed about the Christian faith. But he was familiar with the book, he was familiar with what was going on in Machen's denomination at that time, the

Presbyterian Church USA, and he was aghast that this man who upheld what

Presbyterians are supposed to uphold was the one who would eventually be thrown out of the

Presbyterian Church USA. Because Machen said you can't—even though, again, he didn't agree with Machen—he said you can't answer his scholarship and his logic.

So what Machen gave—and I think this is probably why World gave it the Book of the

Year for 2023 award—it really was kind of the early tremors of this earthquake of modernism or liberalism that crept into the churches in the 20th century.

And I'll give you the overview, just a hint on reading the book Christianity and Liberalism.

Don't read it first as a theological text. It's really the map of a battlefield with the different theaters of the war—doctrine,

God and man, the Bible, Christ, salvation, and the church. Liberalism, which is not to be equated with political liberalism, liberalism—which really was not very liberal, but that's beside the point—liberalism, otherwise known as modernism, really denied the fundamentals of the

Christian faith about God and man and about the Bible and Christ and salvation.

And so what Machen is putting forth in his book is really three things.

One, liberalism, theological liberalism, denial of the fundamentals of the faith, is not a different brand of Christianity.

That was what was being espoused in the Presbyterian Church of the

United States of America in 2023 and in other churches. He said it's not a different brand of Christianity.

It's not Christianity. And he says that over and over again, and the book improves his point.

Number two, the book makes the point that Christianity is about supernaturalism versus naturalism.

Naturalism means that really God doesn't intervene in the world. If he does, it's really just by experience, that religion is just an unnatural outgrowth of human life and progress.

And Machen says absolutely not. From beginning to end, the Bible is about the supernatural, the true and living

God's involvement in the world. And then number three in the book, it's a strong statement about history, what

God has done in history that precedes Christian or religious experience.

Very, very important for the book, the importance of history before experience. That's kind of an overview of Christianity and liberalism.

Okay, well, today we have a situation that makes the liberalism of Machen's day pale into insignificance in comparison to what we are seeing today, even within professed

Christianity. We even had professedly conservative and even professedly reformed congregations and denominations electing into office people who claim to be homosexuals, who merely make a vow of chastity and celibacy and so on.

And we could go on and on and on. Would you say that Machen's work, having said that, is still as powerful in the 21st century as it was in his day?

Chris, it was last night in preparing for this, I finished, I think for the third time

I've been through the book, although I hadn't been through it for many years. Even I could not get over how powerful that book, this book is as a statement today.

I think that's again why the World News Group gave it book of the year. But my dear brother, we're getting ahead of things.

I'm looking, I plan to deal with those things in the second hour. Okay, then we'll wait to the second hour for you to respond to that.

Okay. Let me just give your audience an overview. And Chris, you know, you interrupt me at points,

I can just go on and on and on. Yeah, well, in the first program, we covered just really just the introduction to the book.

That's the October 31st, 2023 program. And then that was chapter one.

Chapter two is about doctrine. And in a real sense, as many people have pointed out, the whole book is really about Christian doctrine.

But in a quote, I won't quote too often from Machen, but I want people to get a feel for the book.

Machen writes, according to the Christian conception, a creed is not a mere expression of Christian experience, but on the contrary, it is a setting forth of those facts upon which experience is based.

That's probably a succinct summary of the whole book. He says, if any one fact is clear on the basis of the evidence, it is that the

Christian movement at its inception was not just a way of life in the modern sense, but a way of life founded upon a message.

And what he's getting at there, liberalism put a big emphasis supposedly on the way of life. Machen says you can't have the way of life without the message that comes.

And he also has in the chapter on doctrine, the primitive church, or we'd call it the early church, was concerned not merely with what

Jesus had said, but also and primarily with what

Jesus had done. Machen's putting himself over against the religious teachers of his day who wanted to follow the words of Jesus, but they didn't pay attention to what he actually did.

Again, Machen, the world was to be redeemed through the proclamation of an event.

And with the event went the meaning of the event and the setting forth of the event with the meaning of the event.

That was doctrine. So that's his really what is his second chapter.

God and man is chapter three in the book. Again, the introductions, chapter one, doctrine, chapter two, and then

God and man, chapter three. And when we come to the second section, Chris, in so many ways, there have been such market changes, even from Machen's day.

But God and man, for the religion of Machen's day, and it's true to a large extent today,

God was known through feelings. Not an uncommon statement in Machen's day was this.

The knowledge of God is the death of religion because the emphasis was on feelings rather than so -called facts.

The emphasis was on the quote unquote, the practical, not the theoretical.

Doctrine would be called the theoretical. And as Machen points out, there's nothing about objective reality when you deny doctrine.

Therefore, there really is no knowledge. At that time, the emphasis was on the fatherhood of God, which was regarded as the essence of Christianity and the brotherhood of man, a very popular hymn then.

And even today, God our father, Christ our brother. And as Machen points out so powerfully, in one sense,

I mean, God is the father of all people, his creator. But the relationship of God to unrepentant sinners, as Machen put it, is not the relationship of a father to his children.

And this was regarded as inflammatory in Machen's day, that you would deny that liberal concept of the fatherhood of God.

Machen speaks of the loss of what he calls the awful, and awful is not bad, but full of awe.

The word awful is a wonderful word when you take it for what it really means, that the awful transcendence of God, Machen emphasizes the great gulf between God and the creature.

And regarding man in chapter three, on God and man, Machen has this statement, according to the

Bible, man is a sinner under the just condemnation of God.

According to modern liberalism or modernism, the denial of the fundamentals of the faith, there is really no such thing as sin.

At the very root of the modern liberal movement that is in theology is the loss of the consciousness of sin.

Now, he wrote this in 1923. The consciousness of sin was formerly the starting point of all preaching, but today it is gone.

Characteristic of the modern age above all else is a supreme confidence in human goodness.

The religious literature of the day is redolent of that confidence. Get beneath the rough exterior of men, we are told, and we shall discover enough self -sacrifice to found upon it the hope of society.

The world's evil, it is said, can be overcome with the world's good. No help is needed from the outside world.

Wow, that Chris was 1923, and that was the view of man that was held then.

The other statement in this chapter, Christianity means that sin, this is powerful,

Christianity means that sin is faced once for all and then is cast by the grace of God forever into the depths of the sea.

The trouble with the paganism of ancient Greece, as with the paganism of modern times, was not in the superstructure, which was glorious, but in the foundation, which was rotten.

There was always something to be covered up. The enthusiasm of the architect,

God is maintained as a great architect here, was maintained only by ignoring the disturbing fact of sin.

In Christianity, on the other hand, nothing needs to be covered up.

The fact of sin is faced squarely once for all and is dealt with by the grace of God.

But then, after sin has been removed by the grace of God, the

Christian can proceed to develop joyously every faculty that God has given him.

Such is the higher Christian humanism, that's over again, secular humanism, a humanism founded not upon human pride, but upon divine grace.

Oh, I mean, talk about, I'm jumping already, Chris, into what we're going to be dealing with in the second hour.

But when's your break? I can keep going here. Why don't I take the break now, so I don't have to interrupt you mid -sentence.

Great. And if anybody has a question for Pastor Bill Shishko on J.

Gressamachin, as I am correcting myself in my pronunciation, please send in your email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, such as you are a member of a church, for instance, that you believe sadly and tragically needs to warnings of J.

Gressamachin today, because they are accurately described in this classic work as a liberal church, or might even be more accurately described in the 21st century a leftist church.

But if you're just asking a general question, it's not personal, it's not private, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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That's royaldiadem .com. Mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Pastor Bill Shishko of the

Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island, New York. And we are continuing part two of a discussion we began on October 31st celebrating the 100th anniversary of J.

Gresham Machen's classic work, Christianity and Liberalism. And if you have a question, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And since you mentioned earlier H. L. Machen, I want to once again plug the documentary that was produced by our mutual friend and also one of your colleagues in the

Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.

He produced The Unexpected Orthodoxy of an

Atheist, H. L. Machen's obituary of J.

Gresham Machen. And even though, as Pastor Shishko mentioned earlier, even though Machen, the atheist, disagreed with much, if not most, of what

J. Gresham Machen stood for, he still revered him as a man of integrity and a man of gifts and power and so on and wrote this wonderful obituary that I actually had the privilege to record in my voice for Jason Wallace's video.

So if you want to see that yourself, go to YouTube and type in The Unexpected Orthodoxy of an

Atheist. That's The Unexpected Orthodoxy of an Atheist. And you can also go to the website of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.

And that website is gospelutah .org.

But if you could, Bill, pick up from where you left off there. You know, that obituary by H.

L. Machen really, really is remarkable. I have to hear it in your voice. We're in, actually, chapter four.

By the way, you're not going to recognize my voice because after hearing a recording

I actually found of Machen, I tried to imitate him as best as I could.

No, that's interesting. It makes it even more fascinating. Chapter four in Machen's volume,

Christianity and Liberalism, is on the Bible. If you're looking for proofs that the

Bible is inspired and inerrant and plenary inspired, fully inspired, this really wouldn't be the chapter you'd want to read.

Not that Machen didn't believe it. But that really wasn't his purpose in this chapter.

But he has what, to me, was just a fascinating insight into why we had the

Bible. He said, The Christian message has come to us through the Bible. What shall we think about this book in which the message is contained?

According to the Christian view, the Bible contains an account of a revelation from God to man, which is found nowhere else.

The way was opened, according to the Bible, by an act of God when almost, we would now say, 22 ,000 years ago, outside the walls of Jerusalem, the eternal sun was offered as a sacrifice for the sins of men.

To that one great event, the whole Old Testament looks forward. And in that one event, the whole of the

New Testament finds its center and core. Salvation, then, according to the

Bible, is not something that was discovered, but something that happened.

Now, he's distancing himself from those who believe the Bible was kind of an evolved historical document that came out of the imaginations of people.

Back to Machen. Hence appears the uniqueness of the Bible. All the ideas of Christianity, listen carefully to this, all the ideas of Christianity might be discovered in some other religion, yet there would be, in that other religion, no

Christianity. For Christianity depends not upon a complex of ideas, but upon the narration of an event.

Without that event, the world, in the Christian view, is altogether dark, and humanity is lost under the guilt of sin.

There could be no salvation by the discovery of eternal truth, for eternal truth brings nothing but despair because of sin.

But a new face has been put upon life by the blessed thing that God did when he offered up his only begotten

Son. And Machen's just, his esteem of the Scriptures, which, that's one of the things

Chris and I got done last night going over this. I don't want to be facetious, but that song,

Thank God I'm a Country Boy, and I don't want to be irreverent, but I said, Thank God I'm an Orthodox Presbyterian.

This reverence for the Bible that Machen had is so much a part of the church of which

I'm a part, and I'm thankful for that. Machen ends the chapter on the Bible by saying, the

Reformation of the 16th century was founded upon the authority of the Bible, and yet it set the world aflame.

Dependence upon a word of man would be slavish, but dependence upon God's word is lost.

Bill, you've frozen. If we were left to our own devices and had no blessed word of God, the

Bible to the Christian is not a birth card of Christian liberty.

It is no wonder, then, that liberalism, that is theological liberalism, is totally different from Christianity, for the foundation is different.

Christianity is founded upon the Bible. It bases upon the Bible both its thinking and its life.

Liberalism, on the other hand, is founded upon the shifting emotions of sinful.

Next hour in the application, that works itself out in so many ways, but that was the insight of J.

Gress Machen. His next chapter is on Christ, whom he calls the supernatural person.

Again, for Machen, again, this is for the scriptures, Christianity is a supernatural religion.

We're not talking about something that is the evolution of human thought and development.

It's God speaking and acting in history, and Christ is, as Machen calls him, the supernatural person.

This is probably the most complex chapter in the book, and in his more popular way, he develops the orthodox doctrine of Christ.

He's God and man in two distinct natures and one person. His point here is that Jesus is not an example for our faith or an example of faith, but he's the object of our faith.

It's not just his person, but also his work. And interestingly, for those who've read

C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, there's something similar to what

Lewis famously said in Mere Christianity. Don't call

Jesus a good man, because no good man would claim to be God, or he'd be the most arrogant man on the face of the earth, and he has other things.

But Machen says the same thing in there, telling if Jesus is your moral example, he claimed to be

God. And that would make him a man of hyper -arrogance.

But anyway, the chapter on Christ, he also deals with miracles in this lengthy chapter.

Miracles were denied by those of the liberal persuasion and theology.

And again, tellingly, Machen says, it is small comfort to be told that there was goodness in the world, because liberalism emphasized the goodness of man and so on.

He said it's small comfort to be told that there was goodness in the world, when what we need is goodness triumphant over sin.

But goodness triumphant over sin involves an entrance of the creative power of God, that's supernaturalism, and that creative power of God is manifested by miracles.

Without the miracles, the New Testament might be easier to believe, but the thing that would be believed would be entirely different from that which presents itself to us now.

Without the miracles, we would have a teacher. With the miracles, we have a

Savior. Amen. Isn't that something? That's so beautifully expressed.

And there again is the supernaturalism. One of Professor Machen's other volumes was on the virgin birth of Christ, which was denied by the theological liberals.

Many denied not all. Many denied the bodily resurrection of Christ. And Machen said, you take that out, and you don't have

Christianity at all. So that chapter on Christ is very full. Now the one on salvation, especially where Machen emphasizes the cross and the atonement, it is

Machen's eloquence at its highest. I will put in my books,

Chris, when I'm writing, wow, when it's a statement, that's a wow statement. And there's loads of wow statements in his chapter on salvation.

There are so many of them in here. But he says, according to the

Christian belief, Jesus is our Savior, not by virtue of what he said, because the liberals wanted to say that they lived out of the words of Jesus, although they really didn't.

But anyway, not even by virtue, Machen again, not even by virtue of what Jesus was, but by what he did.

He is our Savior, not because he has inspired us to live the same kind of life that he lived, but because he took upon himself the dreadful guilt of our sins and bore it instead of us on the cross.

Wow, what a statement in a succinct form of what the gospel is.

Again, quoting him from his chapter on salvation, our religion must be abandoned altogether unless at a definite point in history,

Jesus died as a propitiation for the sins of men.

Propitiation is to appease the wrath of God. And of course, liberals, theological liberals, hated the concept of the wrath of God.

And there, as Machen points out, their opprobrium, their invectives, their opposition to the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, that Christ died taking the punishment for our sins as a substitute for us, this was something the liberals railed against.

Now back to Machen. He says with regard to this objection to their atonement, it should be observed that if religion be made independent of history, there is no such thing as a gospel.

For gospel means good news, tidings, information about something that has happened.

A gospel independent of history is a contradiction in terms.

The Christian gospel means not a presentation of what always has been true, which was basically what liberalism was saying, but a report of something new, something that imparts a totally different aspect to the situation of mankind.

So what Machen just goes right to the heart of things there. Now, what's fascinating, we've got what,

Chris, about five minutes before your break? Actually 10. Okay, great. This, Chris, is brilliant.

We're told today, as Machen was told in his day, yes, but the Christian faith is exclusive.

It's narrow. And Machen takes that on. He talks about the criticism of the gospel for its exclusiveness, that Jesus doesn't say

I am a way, a truth, and a life. He's the way, the truth, and the life.

Now, follow what Machen says. What struck the early observers of Christianity most forcibly was not merely that salvation was offered by means of the

Christian gospel, but that all other means, or means of salvation, were resolutely rejected.

The early Christian missionaries demanded an absolutely exclusive devotion to Christ.

Such exclusiveness ran directly counter to the prevailing syncretism, which is a blending of paganism and Christianity, the prevailing syncretism of the

Hellenistic age. Salvation, in other words, was not merely through Christ.

It was only through Christ. And that little word only lay all the offense.

Now, some background. When Machen was writing this, and one of the things that makes him,

I think, so passionate in this chapter, the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America was sending out missionaries who said, basically, all religions are at the base of a mountain, and they're all going up the mountain to the same

God. And there was no, not to say the least, no emphasis on the exclusiveness of the gospel.

And that would include Pearl Buck, correct? Pearl Buck was exactly the one that Machen was dealing with.

But all are on the same road to God, and a complete denial of the new birth, which

Machen has a tremendous section on the new birth here. But here we go.

Watch how he deals with this exclusiveness argument. He says, in answer to the objection about the exclusiveness of the gospel, it may be said simply that the

Christian way of salvation is narrow, only so long as the church chooses to let it remain narrow.

The name of Jesus is discovered to be strangely adapted to men of every race and of every kind of previous education.

And the church has ample means, with promise of God's spirit, to bring the name of Jesus to all.

If, therefore, this way of salvation is not offered to all, it is not the fault of the way of salvation itself, but the fault of those who fail to use the means that God has placed in their hands.

I've not read anything like that in other books, but that's powerful. Machen was passionately concerned with missions.

One of the reasons why I'm glad I'm part of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, it's embedded into our warp and woof.

Yes, the gospel is exclusive, but let's go to people with it and call them to repentance and faith.

That's an absolutely brilliant, brilliant thing. The other thing I would say about this is

Machen deals with the fact that Christianity is not Christian civilization.

And today where we have Christian nationalism and things like this, Machen makes the point that Christianity will certainly impact the culture and form people, but that formation of a society, that's not

Christianity. Christianity is focused on Christ. And then before the break, a chapter on the church would be, for many of your listeners,

Chris, kind of odd in a way. Machen was dealing with a situation in the

Presbyterian Church, USA, and other churches where ministers, as you were mentioning before, ministers would come in with crossed fingers.

They would profess to believe the Bible is the word of God, but they really didn't. They reinterpreted that.

They would confess that they believed that in the Presbyterian Church, the Westminster Confession of Faith was the system of doctrine, contained the system of doctrine taught in Holy Scripture, but they really didn't believe that.

And Machen makes the point that here the issue is honesty. And tellingly,

Chris, he makes the point, he says, really, if you don't believe these distinctives, why not become part of a

Unitarian Church? And a lot of it's because of money. But here, and then I'll end with this, this is what is prophetic and sad.

Machen says in his chapter on the church, if you don't believe what the church's confession is, then be honorable and leave.

Either start another church or become part of one that does hold what you do. But he said, please don't coexist with us.

And what's tragic is that it would be 13 years later that those liberals really were illiberal.

They would force Dr. Machen, Professor Machen, out of Presbyterian Church USA.

So I found that chapter on the church. I wanted to have my tissue box near me. It was sad when you realized what happened.

Yes, in fact, they should go beyond forming another church.

They should be honest enough to form their own religion because they're not

Christians at all when they are denying the essentials of the scriptures. Yeah, correct.

That's right. And when you have a confessional standard, and again, you profess it, but with crossed fingers, as Dr.

Machen, as Professor Machen says, that's dishonesty. All right.

We have now, next hour, we're going to deal with the application for today. Great. And just a quick clarification, because there are those of our friends and brothers and sisters who think somehow having a confession violates the principle of sola scriptura and the sufficiency of scripture.

How can you correct our perhaps well -meaning brothers and sisters and their error on that?

Yeah. Well, number one, even, for example, the Westminster Confession of Faith or the 1689

Confession, they make very clear in there that the Bible is the final authority for faith and life.

The second thing is everybody has a confession. That's right. Everybody has a confession.

As soon as you say, I believe the Bible teaches this, you have a creed. So be honest.

We put our creed, our confession, right out there for people to check and to test by the word of God.

Yes, we as Christians must never be enslaved to the extra canonical teachings of men, the uninspired writings of men.

But at the same time, we must never be so arrogant that we reject great minds, even of the past, who have much to teach us.

If we come to the conclusion that we are so insightful and brilliant and wise that we don't need great teachers of history at all to rightly understand the word of God, we are heading on a dangerous path, aren't we?

Exactly. Exactly. The arrogance of the modern, as it's often called.

Amen. We have time right now for one question before the break. We have

Finn in Elwood, Long Island, New York. And Finn says, earlier you were quoting

J. Gressom Machen in his defense of the miraculous. I am sure he was not defending the understanding of the miraculous promoted by the continuationists in the charismatic and Pentecostal movement.

Yeah, absolutely. Machen's talking about the miracles recorded in the Bible, the passage through the

Red Sea, the Jesus walking on the water, the virgin birth of the Lord Jesus, the resurrection of Christ.

Machen would have had no use at all for these pseudo miracles that are spoken of today.

Yes, and you and I, I know, we believe God does miracles.

We know somebody has cancer, we pray, not only for the surgeons to be skilled at treating that person, but we pray that God would physically heal that person.

But the difference is that the charismatic and Pentecostals believe that they are humans with the gifts to heal today.

Correct. Yeah, the miracles in the Bible are designed to not only show God's work of new creation, but especially in the

Gospels, they confirm that Jesus is the great prophet. Miracles confirm that a prophet was bringing the

Word of God, and the miracles confirm that Jesus is the greatest prophet, the God -man.

Well, thank you, Finn, in Elwood, Long Island, New York. And guess what? You have won a free copy of Christianity and Liberalism, provided by the dear folks at Ligonier Ministries through their publishing arm,

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Before I return to Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comack, Long Island, New York, in our continuation of a discussion we began on October 31st celebrating the 100th anniversary of J.

Gresham Machen's classic work Christianity and Liberalism. Before I return to that conversation,

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Gresson Machen and his classic work, Christianity and Liberalism, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And if you could, Pastor Bill, begin the application of this classic work. Thanks, Chris.

This is a painful thing to talk about because we're dealing with our professed brothers and sisters in Christ as Machen was doing.

Let me begin, I guess, with true confession. It was with a minister friend of mine and he was lovingly,

I think, trying to push me into a corner and he said, you have to say, Bill, first of all, you're evangelical, not reformed, right?

And I didn't take the bait and I said, because I don't like throwing around the word reformed as a buzzword, but I am, but I said, my problem is this.

I don't use a word if I can't define it. I don't know how to define evangelical anymore.

I have said there needs, and I've actually suggested this to friends that I think would be very capable of writing something like this.

Take Dr. Machen's Christianity and Liberalism that was done in 1923 and do a volume that we really need called

Christianity and Evangelicalism or, as they put it this way, Christianity and Evangelicalism or the trajectories of some forms of today's evangelicalism.

And that's exactly the problem. Evangelicalism is kind of hard to get your hand on because it's not a distinct group within a church, as I point out, where liberalism, and probably do it this way, here's why it's difficult.

In Dr. Machen's, in Professor Machen's day, the emphasis was on words.

Liberalism came in propositions. This is a new media world from a hundred years ago, and we've gone from words to pictures and experience, and that's what makes evangelicalism really hard to pin down.

But I do want to make some applications of Professor Machen's book to today's evangelicalism broadly considered, if I could put it like that.

And here, I think maybe probably the best book to recommend, you can get it from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, which is one of my favorite book services, is the book by David Wells, The Courage to be

Protestant, which in many ways touches on these kinds of things. But here we go. Let's take

Professor Machen's five heads in his book, or six actually, that we've dealt with and just make some comments.

And Chris, you're more in contact with the modern evangelical world than I am, so feel free to embellish these things as I know you'll be able to do.

Doctrine. Well, you alluded to this before. We are generally dealing in evangelicalism with a creedless or confessionless church situation.

Evangelicalism doesn't like to debate the so -called fine points of theology.

The imputation of Adam's sin, the imputation of Christ's righteousness, what the

Word of God says about the magistrate, about church government, and so on. This has been replaced, as it was being replaced in Machen's day, by the so -called practical.

That brings this disconcerting situation. Ask evangelicals questions like this.

What's God? What's the new birth? Who was

Jesus? What's the meaning of the cross? What's the gospel?

What's the meaning of salvation? And you will be stunned by the answers.

A number of years ago, Mike Horton from White Horse Inn had done an interview with either he did it or somebody else connected with him did.

I think it was the National Association of Religious Broadcasters. And people were asked, what's the gospel?

Very few of them got it right. The gospel is Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

And it was stunning that in this evangelical establishment, the

National Association of Religious Broadcasters, there was such, I'm sorry to say, such ignorance of doctrine.

So that would be one thing. Now you come to Machen's chapter three, or what we've covered in the second half,

God and man. Oh my, what atrociously low views of God proliferate among evangelicals, many of them.

The view of worship, the view of, the attitude, the conversation about God, attitudes toward God.

Is the fear of God a dominant thing among them?

I don't want to indict all evangelicalism, but again, we're talking about a mood here, evangelical mood.

Reverence, is reverence such a thing among modern evangelicalism? I think of Bob Dylan's song from years ago on his album

Slow Train Coming, which had to be influenced by some, he had to have been influenced by somebody that was

Reformed, where he said, you think he's just, speaking of God, you think he's just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires?

Not all evangelicalism, but at least what I read and see and hear.

Now when you deal with man, man is front and center in modern evangelicalism, and there are atrociously low views of sin and guilt.

Machen said in 1923, page 65 in Christianity and Liberalism, that the consciousness of sin was formerly the starting point of all preaching.

Now this is 1923, and he says, but today it is gone.

Well, I don't know how you can be farther gone than gone, but it's even worse today where you have atrociously low views of sin and guilt.

In so much of modern evangelicalism, man doesn't really need a savior.

He needs a helper, and the fear of giving offense by dealing with personally and closely with sin, whether it be the sin of infanticide or whether it be the sin of sexual addiction, the unwillingness in many ways to give offense for fear you're going to lose hearers, that's just, you ask people, are you concerned about offending

God with things? Seeker -sensitive churches in which the professed standard is, what would it take for people to come to my church?

That was what the late Robert Schuller did with his, I think, now defunct Crystal Cathedral.

What would it take for you to come to my church? That's pregnant with painful significance.

And incidentally, when we use that language in the scriptures, man isn't the seeker. The Bible says no man seeks after God.

It takes a supernatural work of grace to make a man seek God. The seeker is

God, and he seeks those who worship him in spirit, that is, by the Holy Spirit, and in truth.

That's John 4 and verse 23. So that focus on man, and Chris, I commend,

I mentioned World Magazine. I commend the article by Andre Sue Peterson.

Andre and I were at Westminster Seminary together, the seminary that Dr. Machen founded in 1929.

She writes for World Magazine, and in the August 26th issue,

Andre, who is very concerned for outreach and evangelism, had an article that I just had to clip, and I'm glad I can quote from it.

A front porch revival, quote unquote, a front porch revival, question mark, the welcoming church must take care not to become the apostate church.

And here she specifically refers to the late Tim Keller, who talked about the front porch as a place to meet with unbelievers, which in itself is a good thing.

But then Andre writes, what about Keller's notion that, quote, in this space, non -believers, she's quoting

Tim Keller, the late Tim Keller, non -believers feel themselves to be fully accepted, gratified participants.

What could go wrong with that, writes Andre. Well, it depends on what you mean by gratified participants.

Beware, she says, of extra biblical terms. Does it mean the unbelieving neighbors you invite to your porch are to be considered as having spiritual and social views on an equal footing with Christian views?

Or what if the term ratified participants morphs over time to mean not only to the unbelievers you invite to your front porch, but also the unbelievers you invite to your

Sunday morning worship service. Are they ratified participants there too?

Ratified enough, say, to take the Lord's Supper, to head committees, to teach

Sunday school? That incidentally would be the situation Professor Machen dealt with in 1923.

Quoting Andre Sue Peterson again, if their views are recorded equal validity with believers' views, do not be surprised if before long a rainbow flag flies from your church.

Now this written by a woman who is very, very concerned for outreach and ministry to others, but even she sees this kind of drift.

The Bible, there is among evangelicals, I think in most cases, a formal acknowledgment that the

Bible is the word of God. But what's the attitude in practice?

And that we have to deal with individual situations, but here something greatly different from what

Professor Machen dealt with. This is now the internet age, and there is shocking carelessness among God's professed people about what they attend to on the internet.

Who wrote these things about the Bible? What's their way of interpreting the scriptures? And how do they apply them?

And that's because I think in many cases, most cases within evangelicalism, the

Bible has really become more of a springboard for experience. Ministers will read about quote -unquote sermons that impact, or so many messages by evangelicals are really just kind of short, motivational addresses.

Well, this is nothing at all like an historic, reformational, biblical emphasis on the

Bible as the word of God. Let me go ahead. I want you to interact.

Let me deal with it with Christ. Again, going back to the question, you wonder when you ask people today, who is

Christ? What did he do? What's the meaning of the cross? And too often it seems to me that there are symbols.

These are symbols, and they become a substitute for the deep realities given in the scriptures.

Machen's comment, the cross, this is from 1923. The cross is celebrated, but it is not understood.

And he quotes the hymn, the very popular hymn in certain circles, nearer my

God to thee, nearer to thee, even though it be a cross that raiseth me.

That's not the cross of Christ. That's dealing with human tribulation or difficulty.

And as Machen points out in the book, one can only be sorry that the people on the

Titanic could not find a better hymn to use in the last solemn hour of their lives, because that was the hymn that was played.

And these, Chris, again, I don't gloat in dealing with this. I'd like to think these problems are not as widespread as I think they are.

But if this is the case, this is a very sorry day of salvation.

Now, if we've had the erosion in all of these other doctrines, the

Bible, God, man, sin, and so on, yet one must wonder what salvation means in many sectors of so -called evangelicalism.

Often, at least as I hear it, it becomes human improvement. Now, five steps to improve your prayer life, five steps to be a better dad, five steps to be a better wife, or whatever it would be.

Machen tellingly, at a couple of points in the book dealing with this, in Christianity and liberalism, points out that view of Christianity is a return to medieval

Christianity and Rome. It's not an emphasis on grace, but upon works.

And it's an elevation of human experience above what happened on Good Friday and on Easter and so on.

So, again, I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but that seems to be the big thing.

And here, this is so significant, Chris, there's no call to repentance.

If you don't have a view of sin, then there's not going to be a call to repentance. And that's the clarion call of the kingdom of God.

The book that I was given recently to read,

Embracing the Journey, A Christian Parent's Blueprint to Loving Your LGBTQ Child by Greg and Lynn McDonald.

I don't know who they are. I believe they are connected with Andy Stanley's congregation down in Atlanta, Georgia.

And it's a painful book to read. These are people whose son came out as gay, as a homosexual.

And the book is largely anecdotal about the agonies the family went through.

But they came to the view that these are Christians, are professed Christians.

They needed to embrace the journey of their son, who was in the

LGBTQ category. And the book concludes this way. God designed humans to love one another, our friends, our church.

And yes, even those who seem like our enemies. It's not always easy, but we're made to live together in fellowship, to help one another, to bear one another's burdens, and to encourage those around us to keep going.

Notice how man's the center. There's something life -giving about taking the focus off ourselves and helping others.

Our unexpected journey, writes Greg and Lynn McDonald, has brought us to a place where we can be grateful for the opportunity to offer hope to the hopeless, help others embrace their journey, which for them is the

LGBTQ journey, and experience true peace and contentment.

The book doesn't mention repentance from sin once. This is the stuff,

Chris, of so much of modern evangelicalism. And if there's anything that's an epitome of the kind of liberalism that Professor Machen was dealing with, it's this.

Man front and center. The brotherhood of man and no call to repentance.

And then I'll just end with this, and then I know you've got loads of comments in our break as well. The chapter on the church in Machen.

If Machen were alive today, and he looked at the evangelical church, he would say,

I'm in a totally different world. I look at what's out there, so to speak.

I'm not sure I'm on the same planet as some, if not many, in the evangelical church.

Some examples. No church membership in a church. No church discipline in a church.

If baptism is administered at all, by whom? What does it mean? Is the

Lord's Supper at all administered as part of church life? Is this church, quote -unquote, accountable to anyone beyond the local level?

And what's its mission? And so much, sadly, of the megachurch movement, the mission is the megachurch.

Whereas the church is to be about bringing the biblical gospel to all the world.

I'm not saying all evangelicalism or even a majority of it doesn't have a sense of that mission.

A lot of it does, but a lot of it doesn't. And so here again,

Chris, I don't want to end on a negative note. I have some practical counsels we'll come to.

But I mean, Chris, you see this. Is this an overstatement of things? No, it's not. And I think some of it can be summed up in the fact that there is an idolatry of niceness.

And it appears that the worst sin or crime in the minds of many who profess to be

Christians today, that a Christian can commit, is to correct a brother in error or to warn a lost person that they are headed for hell without repentance.

And what you were saying about those parents who tragically support a child on a journey into the

LGBTQ community, so -called, reminded me of a very powerful message in a testimony

I heard recently. There's a dear sweet sister named

Patty Height. That's Patty with an I. And she spoke recently at a local church here in Carlisle about how

Christ delivered her from her enslavement to lesbianism. And she has been completely delivered not only from lesbianism but from gender confusion.

And she no longer has any lesbian desires and so forth.

And she said something very powerful but something I'm sure is very unpopular.

And I'm paraphrasing her because I don't have it written down what she said. But she said, very often parents lifting up their children as idols can lead them away from the faith.

And not only did it remind me of that book that you were just describing, but just very recently

I arranged a debate between Dr. James R. White and a professed homosexual named

Gregory Coles. And before Gregory Coles accepted the challenge to debate

Dr. White on the homosexual issue,

I contacted James Brownson who had originally accepted my invitation but his wife urged him to back out because he does have some health issues regarding his mind.

But James Brownson was considered by many a thoroughly biblical and reformed exegete professor of New Testament at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan.

And because his son came out as a homosexual he basically, it seems, forced himself to abandon biblical orthodoxy and accept as legitimate the wickedness of homosexuality and wrote a book titled

Bible Gender Sexuality. But the issue, a lot of it, is also,

I think, rooted in a twisting of the scriptures in Matthew 7.

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. And therefore, those that twist this teaching from the lips of our

Savior basically are saying don't criticize anyone and dare question their salvation because this is forbidding us to do that.

Well, they're obviously not reading the whole text because Christ goes on further to say for in the way you judge you will be judged and by your standard of measure it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother let me take the speck out of your eye and look the log is in your own eye?

You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye and then you will clearly see to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

We are to take the specks out of our brethren's eyes but we're not to do it hypocritically.

And then ironically Christ immediately goes on to say do not give what is holy to dogs and do not throw your pearls before pigs or they will trample them under your feet and turn and tear you to pieces.

How could anyone obey that command of Christ unless they're using judgment and discernment?

And that is something that is so prevalent in modern evangelicalism.

I can remember when I first started conducting the debates on Long Island between Dr. James R. White and Roman Catholics and there were far more evangelicals that were angry at me for doing this than there were

Roman Catholics. And I can remember the owner of a bookstore a

Christian bookstore in the Huntington area I don't even know if it exists anymore when I brought in posters for the debate the very first debate

I believe it was on Mary he said to me how dare you? And I said, excuse me?

He goes, this is a day and age when we should be linking arms with our Catholic brothers and sisters not stirring up animosity and disagreement.

And I said to him well number one you're demonstrating animosity towards me and disagreeing with me and number two isn't the most loving thing that you could do is to correct someone in serious error who is denying the gospel that they may that they may discover eternal life?

So that's my two cents about that whole thing. Yeah, well Chris you've just made the strongest point for why the reissuing of Professor Machen's Christianity and Liberalism is so contemporary.

You made the point because he dealt with the same mindset in his day embracing the journey when

I actually spoke with someone about this and wanted me to endorse the person's lesbianism and mentioned the book

Embracing the Journey and I said, let me ask you a question should I embrace the journey when that journey is to your own destruction?

Right. And I said, that's a broken heart but that's what we're dealing with. The other thing and when we have the

I know you've got a break again, right? Yeah, in about 30 seconds I've got to go to the break. Okay, real quickly

Evangelicalism we don't know what it means I appreciate the brother in one of your ads he says, I am from what is it, Franklin, Tennessee?

I'm a Baptist I'm independent tell me what your church believes

I'm a Baptist, Methodist whatever that holds to our historic standards we've got to start speaking like this.

Yes, amen. And we're going to our final break if you have a question for Pastor Shishko and there are some of you who are waiting patiently

I hope you're waiting patiently to have your questions asked and answered but if you want to get in line please send in your email immediately to chrisarnson at gmail dot com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence don't go away we'll be right back.

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And please, always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arms and the Nine Trump and Zion Radio. We have a question from Lolly in Ridge, Long Island, New York.

Lolly asks, what would J. Gresham Machin think about friendship evangelism where we are to win people older by the way we live and not by preaching the gospel to them necessarily?

Very often, you will hear the quote that is accredited to St. Francis of Assisi, but I'm not sure that is an accurate way to get the source of that quote, which is, preach the gospel and, if necessary, use words.

Sometimes the text of Scripture in 1 Peter, where we read, wives be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives.

They will use that as a justification in the way we try to win our friends and loved ones and neighbors to Christ.

What would Machin think now? Well, Machin would have been a strong believer in being friends with people and ministering to them in that way, but he would abominate the idea that the gospel comes without words.

What Peter is talking about is an illustration of what is given in the word. That would be meaningless if you didn't have what the word of God said.

So you have to have words. Chris, I don't think another question. Matt, just a moment for some practical counsels in here.

I know we're at some time here. Yes. Okay. I don't want to end on a negative note.

And, again, when I deal with evangelicalism, I think we've just got to be honest about how that term is very, to say the least, very mushy today.

But let me give four practical counsels, and if there's other questions, we can deal with them. Number one, study sound doctrine.

The word sound, actually, in the pastoral epistles is the word. We get the word hygienic from it.

There's a cleansing power in sound doctrine. So whether it be the Westminster Confession of Faith, the

OPC edition with the proof text is excellent, and it has the larger and shorter catechisms as well, or the 1689

London Baptist Confession, which Brother Ravinio mentioned in one of your ads. Good catechisms, good theological books.

A good starting point is Louis Birkhoff's Summary of Christian Doctrine.

That was used, I think, for high school students, but it's a good introduction. But please, please, study sound doctrine.

Christianity and liberalism is, first of all, about that. Number two, and I say this as a

Presbyterian, where we have not been favorable and are not favorable toward the imposition of a church calendar on people.

But we need to revive the use of the church calendar at least regarding emphasizing

Christmas, quote -unquote, the birth of Christ, Good Friday, Easter, the resurrection of Christ, Ascension Day, and Pentecost.

Why? These are events in history. Our redemption is founded on those things.

And so, however it's done, those historical events of the gospel need to be reemphasized.

And number three, Christian education. I won't read too much from Professor Machen, pages 180 and 181, but Christian education, not just in the churches, but in Christian schools and in Christian homeschooling.

Machen actually believes that's the number one duty in his day, and he says at the very end of that section, men have abundant opportunity today to learn what can be said against Christianity.

Well, if that was true in 1923, how about today? And it is only fair that they should also learn something about the thing that is being attacked.

In other words, please, let's teach Christian education. It's so important. And the last one is this.

Be careful of the church that you are in. You need to be in a church that has a confessional standard.

It doesn't have to be the Westminster Confession of Faith. It can be the London Baptist Confession.

Even if it's the Confession of the National Association of Evangelicals, be in a church that puts right up front what it believes.

Otherwise, you're going to be in a situation that is, to put it mildly, is not going to be helpful to your soul.

Great. We have time for perhaps one more listener question. We have

Blair in Little Elm, Texas. What, in your opinion, is the greatest heresy of the

Evangelical Church in our modern age? That's a very, very difficult question to answer.

I believe that the non -emphasis on repentance from sin would be the top thing, because everything else really flows from that.

And there are even some churches that would be very conservative who embrace that heresy.

Go ahead. We've got to keep in mind, when the Kingdom of God comes with Christ, what's the message?

Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Amen. And I'll throw in one more question from one of our listeners

Let's see. Roberto in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Are there any documentaries about Machen that you could recommend, especially involving this particular book,

Christianity and Liberalism? Not that I know of.

I can think of one that I saw on YouTube. I believe it was John Piper's lecture on Machen, which really is excellent.

That's what I would recommend. And, of course, John Piper is a Calvinistic Baptist, but he wrote a about an hour and 20 -minute lecture on Machen, which has some pictures in it and so on.

It's really outstanding. By the way, everybody who has sent in questions today has won the classic

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gressom Machen. Thanks to our friends at Ligonier Ministries and Reformation Trust.

So please make sure we have your full name and mailing address. And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

will ship that out to you. And if you're a new questioner, they will also include a New American Standard Bible.

Please summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, Pastor Bill. What I want most etched is believe that the

Bible is the Word of God. Emphasize what it tells us about Jesus and the

Gospel. Without Christ, as He's revealed in the Scriptures, there's no deliverance from sin and guilt.

Amen. Well, once again, I want to make sure that our listeners have a great day. your website for the

Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comack, Long Island. It's thehavenli .com,

thehavenli, for longisland .com. I also want to, once again, recommend that our listeners go to YouTube and find the documentary or the presentation that was created by Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, which will be available on YouTube.

And the website for Pastor Wallace's church is gospelutah .org,

gospelutah .org. And I misspoke earlier. I remember now that when

I said that I listened to a recording of Mankin in order to try to imitate him,

I now remember that I just imagined in his mind the way that he would speak, and then

I verified it later when I dug up a recording of him, and I wasn't far off when I did the narration of that video.

But I want to thank you so much, Pastor Bill. You are always an extraordinary guest. I look forward to your frequent return to the show.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. I want you all to always remember, for the rest of your lives,

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner. And, by the way, folks, don't forget, if you're a man in ministry leadership, the next

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon will be held on June 6, 2024, featuring

Dr. Joel Beeky. He is our keynote speaker, and that will be held at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. If you want to register, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.