Shared Parenting for Kids in Broken Families | EP 28

I've got so many followers on Facebook that reach out to me and say, you know what? I didn't hate my ex nearly as much until I walked into that first family law office and The attorney looked me in the eye and said, you know, hey, you're not gonna get 50 -50 in our state

So I need you to help me dig up dirt on your ex They know you'll give up on your car

You'll give up on your house, but you're not gonna give up so easily on your kids and they can rack up those billable hours

And welcome to tearing down high places, my name's average Joe. Hey Sorry, I'm interrupting myself

Yeah back in the tech room here doing a little editing We realized there was a couple of very important announcements that we didn't make so we're gonna make them right now

Okay, first one. You might be aware of this, but if you're not this is a good reminder

Next week at Cornerstone Church by 15 Mount Laurel Road We've got

VBS. So bring your friends that have kids that are 4 to 12 years old and Let them know it's free.

Come on out August 5th to the 9th. That's starting Monday this week Great time to bless somebody with some right?

So that's that Remove there and then one week later, which is in two weeks depending on when you're watching this

August 16th today's guest Mark Ludwig from Americans for equal shared parenting is bringing his 5050 tour right here to Cornerstone Church It's gonna be from 630 to 9 p .m.

We're gonna have a lot of folks that aren't Aren't Christians don't go to this church.

They're gonna be coming as guests would love to have some people from the church there to greet them there's gonna be multiple speakers talking about the importance of shared parenting legislation to Ameliorate the damage done by divorce and family courts.

So you're gonna learn more about that in the rest of the episode So I'm gonna get off of this real quick, but the agenda if you come out Friday night

It's good. They're gonna have their political game plan The number of committed sponsors they have which is about 30 states

We're gonna talk about how they got those commitments what commitments they have They have over a hundred and twenty pieces of legislation that are going out in 2025 and there's ways that you can support them

Also, if none of this legislation feels like something that you could use to help bless a friend neighbor relative

What you could do is just come out to learn how to speak better to our own

New Jersey legislators because that's part of Mark's agenda is teaching people here in New Jersey how to get in front of their state

Assembly people and state senators and local legislators as well to help them pass

Good legislation to love our neighbors. So that's that's the plan. Come on out. That's it

Hey, thanks so much for taking a brief break. I'll see you later I'm here today with Pastor Tim and we have a very special guest

Mark Ludwig from Americans for equal shared parenting. I I could probably talk about Mark for 10 minutes

I've known him for several years Mark. Thank you very much for coming on tearing down high places.

Hey, thanks for inviting me Joe Yeah, we've known each other for quite a while at least I think seven years or so Yeah This is great

We are we are we're Brothers in arms is probably the best way to describe it

So I'll just I'll just start describing mark a little bit mark runs this organization Americans for Marin's Americans air kins for equal shared parenting and so We're it's a national organization

It's a political organization going after national legislation and helping individual states work on state legislation for equal shared parenting after people get divorced so Real I mean a lot of people that are in our audience mark

They don't even know what happens when you get divorced because I'm a very strong Christians So, can you give us an idea of what the battle is out here, what are we fighting for?

Yeah, and that's why I appreciate you having me on is so many people are unaware I was unaware until it happened to me.

I grew up in the most typical beaver cleaver neighborhood you could ever imagine You know, my dad was chemical engineer.

My mom was a stay -at -home mom Every mom on the street except for one was a stay -at -home mom

There's only one divorce that I know of out of our entire street growing up Only one divorce to this day entire street that I'm aware of no divorce in my family and ever so it

I was pretty blindsided and Almost ashamed if you will when

I went through a custody situation and out of respect for my son I don't want to go through too many details you know that is his mother and He deserves a right to be able to love his mom so I don't want to go through too many details, but a situation happened that I was left with a

Double whammy one a person that I was in love with That I found out I guess wasn't in love with me and ended up leaving

I ended up going 204 days without seeing my son and during that time I didn't know if I would ever see him again

I was literally told that I would never see him again and so I didn't even have time to grieve the relationship that I lost because I immediately had to be focused on my son and he was six weeks old at the time that she left and It was it was a rough time.

I mean I can still remember coming home sitting on the couch and literally just look at the ceiling and crying and So many nights

I would look over and realize oh my gosh the Sun came up I've been sitting here all night. I have to change and go back to work

If I was not a Christian 100 % I would have committed suicide, and that's why

I love doing interviews like this. It's a little hard still to this day So I apologize, but if people don't know

Christ. I don't know how they get through it I've been raised in a very strong Christian family and not putting other people down, but I had been raised that That You always have to trust

God that he has a plan for your life And the way I was raised is that if you do end it you're saying basically

I don't see a way out I don't trust God to get me out Now that's not putting down. I know there are people that have gone through with it

And so it's in no way to put them down. I know that feeling I know how low it is There's just my stomach was hurting so bad.

I hurt so much. I I didn't see a way out I didn't know if I'd ever seen my son again, and I wanted to and literally the only thing that kept me going

Was that belief that somehow God has a plan for my life that I don't understand what it is, but I'm supposed to trust him

And it was all I'm here to tell you I'm here to tell the audience to Mark Ludwig has used the talents

God has given him And and well done good and faithful servant.

Yeah, not that you're done by any stretch of the imagination But I you know, listen, I I saw you last month at Liberty University talking to An organization

It seemed to be lawyers for legislative Christian lawyers No, just legislative

National Association of Christian lawmakers Yeah is exclusively legislators across the country who are

Christians that have decided to come together and Stand up for their Christian values in the state houses across the country

Yeah, they were they were up. I mean they were just so excited You were coming there to talk to them about equal shared parenting

I don't think they ever heard about equal shared parenting But I want to tell you our our audience probably hasn't heard of no -fault divorce either at least a big percentage of them

So I think before you get I mean, you know Some of the questions that I think people might be asking right now is well mark

It sounds like you didn't want to get divorced. Why'd you get divorced? Yeah, what what people don't understand is that like you said no -fault divorce in in the 70s swept across the country and you know before that you had to have a legitimate reason for divorce and And then in the 70s just anybody could just wake up one day and decide you know what?

Yeah, I'm tired. I want to move on and So that what ended up happening is the kids became the casualty

Without going into all the details there was some federal funding mechanisms in DC that started awarding states for collecting child support and States started realizing well the easiest thing to do is get people fighting over child support and the way to do that is get them fighting over time with the kid and So in most states across the country in 83 % of the cases across the country

If a couple splits up one of the parents usually the mother But I'll fight just as hard for the mother as I will for the dad because I'm fighting for the kids not for the mom but in 83 % of the cases across the country the mother will become what's known as the primary custodial parent and The father usually is relegated in most cases to basically in every other weekend visit

Well, it's a very unhealthy even though a lot of people think and like I said before it happened to me

I would have thought well, yeah, what's wrong with that? Until it was my kid that was missing out on the bonding time with his dad

Until it was my kid that was missing out on the chance to get that bonding so that when the teenage years comes

He understands the relationship that's needed for a healthy discipline Until it was my kid that missed out on being able to do homework with his dad and the more research

I started studying You know opposites, you know attract and I think God designed that for a reason each has a strength and each has a weakness and as parents

Man, what a great parenting dynamic they each offset each other Normally in one one parent is a little bit more of the discipline one is more than nurture

One is is very strict with the boundaries one is a little more lenient with the boundaries and a child growing up in a healthy

Relationship like that learns that there's boundaries, but there's also grace But you remove one of those parents out of that relationship and now you have a very unhealthy dynamic for a child to grow up And you know when you look at the statistics across the country, you know, just about every major societal problem

We have whether it's incarceration rates teen pregnancy rates teen suicide rates high school dropout rates

Behavioral problems drug problems the one common thread in every single one of those problems

They grew up without their dad in 80 to 94 percent is usually 71 % in high school dropouts, but you know up to 90 % of homeless and runaway children grew up without a dad.

Yeah Unfortunately, the media is very good about talking about the dads that walked away

Because it just for some reason they just love to be able to talk about that, but I'll tell you what there's a lot more dads that were being pushed away than walked away and It's become prevalent across our country and so what

I work on is we call it a 50 -50 Rebuttable presumption and what that means is that a child should be presumed to have equal access to both parents

Now the rebuttable part means that a judge still has judicial discretion so they can go ahead and describe, you know

Rule on is there extenuating circumstances is one parent unfit unwilling or unable?

But you have to be able to prove a reason before you just rip a parent out of a child's life

You don't arbitrarily say yeah, you know what? We're just gonna let you because imagine a child in this situation

Imagine a child that only gets to visit a parent every other weekend in their mind

They're wondering does my dad not love me. Am I not worthy enough? Is there something wrong with me and Because they can't articulate the questions and concerns that they have

That's what leads to the confusion that ends up leading to The behavioral problems the drug problems the runaways all the other problems start out because a young child can't articulate

They're already confused enough that mom and dad are together But all of a sudden immediately they're hit with the fact.

Why do I get to see I love them both the same Why do I get to visit with one parent and they never really feel like that second home is their home they feel like they're visiting they feel like a suitcase kid and For the dads we become a

Disneyland dad, which a lot of people think sounds fun and And it may be fun. The challenge is fatherhood isn't just about fun father it's about responsibility and God entrusted me with Raising a son and part of that raising the son means

I have to be able to discipline him during the teenage years I have to show him the boundaries when he's young and My son needs to see that I can help him with this homework that I can get him ready for school

And he needs to have that bond if a parent if a child only visits with a parent on weekends

There there's not a lot of boundaries because the kid knows they can get away with a lot on Sunday because the last thing a dad wants to do is discipline a child on a

Sunday knowing they're not going to see him for two more weeks and You know and sometimes and in between 9 and 13 percent of the cases that are extremely toxic

You have a custodial parent that will intentionally use that Against the other parent, you know gosh

You probably don't want to see your dad because you got in trouble last time you were there instead of reinforcing the boundaries that the child should have had they're using that against the other parent and So many times and I've got

I'm part of a community of what we call the shared parenting community online There's about a million two hundred thousand people both fathers and mothers

But I get calls every day from people that said, you know, I haven't seen my child in five years ten years they've been alienated against me brainwashed against me and What I've been getting a lot of in the last few years is people in their 20s that say

From the age 12. I never saw my dad and I was told all the stories about how they hated me

Dad and didn't love me and I finally tracked him down last year and found a bankers box full of return -to -sender birthday cards and Christmas cards and and Thanksgiving cards and bankruptcy papers because they spent every dollar they had fighting a custody battle and ended up homeless and Finally had to realize

I've got to put the mask on myself and hope and pray that my child comes back to me And I've got two good friends of mine one of which testified in the

Missouri Senate this year a year and a half ago that Exact same thing happened.

She said, you know what I did, you know, I grew up not really knowing my dad Finally got a good relationship with him only in time to watch him die of cancer six months later and I lost all those memories and all those chances with my dad that were stolen from me because of lies and So like I said, what we want to try and do is get both parents involved

There is no what the courts want to do is create this adversarial relationship because if there is no 50 -50 you walk into a court into a

Attorney's office and the attorney's gonna say hey look in our state. You're not gonna get 50 -50

So I need you to help me dig up dirt on why you're the better parent Well, first off.

It's not a better parent. There's a different parenting style. So there shouldn't be a better parent

But more importantly, here's a couple of the most vulnerable stage of their relationship where they're trying to move on and a attorney is drinking up all the memories and and going through a

Divorce and a breakup. The last thing you need to do is be thinking about the worst things about your ex

That's just asking for problems when you're trying to raise it and the big problem is how many marriages could have been saved?

If you would walk into that same attorney and say look you're probably gonna get 50 -50 anyway And now instead of digging up dirt, there's a chance of reconciliation

Mark, you know, I am so grateful for having you on to talk about this. I'm afraid

People are gonna need to rewind and listen to that again because what you just said was there was no fluff

You you got no room for people to really bring it in. I think a lot of folks are saying I don't see that too much.

You know, most people I know don't aren't, you know, unless the kids are I mean if they're homeschooling their kids and they're going to a decent church

The problem is they don't see this is the culture of outside the church It's crumbling down all around us and our churches are shrinking, you know

We're retreating from the culture. The reason churches are shrinking They always say that if a father is born again

That family is very very likely to go to church and the child to continue in those footsteps

Yeah, what's happening is in churches across America in almost every church.

There will be a single mother's group But I'll tell you what, there's a lot of men's groups, but I don't see too many churches that have a dad's group and That's one thing that's missing is that father's, you know father -child relationship in most churches

Mmm Feminism has definitely infiltrated the church and we talk about feminism on tearing down high places all the time, right

Tim? Oh, yeah, it's one of the highest places out there and man, Mark What you just said that what there was nothing wrong with what you just said

Everything that you said just made complete logical sense, especially about the part when when you go to court

Why are we assuming one is gonna be better than the other we can't go in with that assumption you need to you want both you want both parents in the home because even at best at best now if Parents get divorced at best you're gonna get 50 -50, but you're already missing out on a hundred hundred

But at best 50 -50 and it's so crucial. Look at all the stats It's so crucial to have both parents in the home, especially the father in the home

I mean those stats that you pulled up earlier Joe. I know they are again. They are that is insane

I didn't know the stats were that high on that and that would make sense even there's probably even more stats

They're not even like you can't even Make the stats up, but there's so much so much issues even talking about church

You you can't really probably get a stat for that But yeah, if the dad is born again, and they're bringing their their family to church

It's more likely that the children are gonna grow up and and do the same thing, but if the serial killers isn't on there

Yeah, well almost all fatherless all serial killers are fatherless 90 % yeah

Yeah, but the another thing to a lot of people don't realize people think for some reason and once again

I don't believe there is a better parent and I will literally and I do fight just as hard for me Yeah, ask me they you know a lot of awesome

Man sorry Well, I get I get it a lot of times people will ask me, you know, hey mark, you know, your son's 14 now

You know, he's at an age where he could ask to live with you full -time and and I don't want that in two reasons,

I don't number one a Child should never have that burden on their shoulders. Well, they have to choose between a parent

That is a thing to put a child in that situation But the other thing is there is no better parent

Levi I look, you know I love Levi enough that I want him to have a relationship with his mother in spite of the fact that the first You know five years she did everything to keep me out of his life.

It doesn't matter He needs her in his life and I want her in there But what a lot of people the perception is that a single mother is better at raising a child

But I tell you what the statistics don't prove out the number one relationship for a child is an intact married family

Second is a single father raising a child believe it or not a single father raising a child is just barely below statistically when you look at outcomes as far as academically emotionally socially on all the issues a

Father raising a child by themselves is just barely behind an intact family But a mother is number years though, right mark.

I'm sorry after a certain number of years after like five years Yeah. Yeah, exactly

Well, you say that mark. I can't think of one benefit that the child would have even with the parents separating

I mean, there's so much that can go wrong with the parents separating why are we not fighting as hard as we can to try to even and make the

Situation better because I can't I can think of so many benefits of having both parents in the home

But I can't think of a whole lot of benefits of having you know Even thinking about even if you have two really great parents it's hard to live one place and then you got to go to another house and then

There's so many issues that can arise someone moves to a different state whatever it is It's hard and it's like you look at the the parents that get divorced

It's hard on them But I don't think we're thinking about how hard it is really on the child Maybe even harder on the child when parents get divorced.

It doesn't the child's life easier at all Well, that's one thing. I've worked on legislation and Joe's aware

I've been very fortunate to be a part of a lot of people give me more credit recognition They say that I pass bills. I didn't pass bills.

I'm part of it One guy didn't gonna pass a bill in a state But I've been very fortunate to work with some great people across the country and we've now passed that what

I call 50 -50 rebuttable presumption in Kentucky Arkansas, West Virginia, Missouri, Florida We passed a smaller version of that in New Hampshire.

That was just signed by Governor Sununu this past week So we're making progress but one goal

I have next year we're gonna be filing legislation that Specifically deals with what you were talking about The welfare system back in the 90s, there's what they call title 4d that has to do with all the welfare benefits and most of those welfare benefits started out that the only way someone could collect those benefits was to get the father out of the home and If you look at most of the major cities across the country

That rampant crime drugs violence everything and the reason is they took the dads out of the home

Don't aren't aware that's you know part of TANF which is is part of the welfare benefits there were four purposes in 1996 that were written into the code that a state was allowed to use those benefits for The first three of which a lot of the radical feminists

Jumped into the state legislatures and pushed hard because the first three of the four purposes that a state can use that money for All require a father to be outside the home

So if you can get the dad outside the home, you can collect the welfare benefits Well, there's what's known as purpose for purpose for specifically says

Or and I this is terrible. I can't believe I'm on camera and I can't remember the verbage Drawn a blank, but it basically says for the reunification of the family unit

States have money that's being given to them from the federal government To spend and right now states are spending that money to drive dads out of the home instead of saying hey

Here's an at -risk couple. Can we get them into some mediation? What other things can we do to try and get that couple working together?

That money's already out there. We just need to repurpose it from Encouraging divorce to encouraging reunification.

So this year for sure already I just met with several sponsors in Missouri, but we're gonna be starting to file that bill across the country

It should have bipartisan support I just can't imagine why any legislator unless they're a family law attorney who makes their money in in divorces

Why they wouldn't be for? encouraging Reunification of parents. Well, I was just gonna say mark

I mean, you know and and you're free you're you're among friends here where you can say it there is there's a spiritual war out there that is

Going on and they want to destroy the family and they're very effective at it and the goals behind it

You know, it's funny. You said radical you mentioned radical feminists. I'm thinking of myself What kind of feminist isn't radical but but unfortunately we've had feminism around for so long it's now steeped into the culture and People just think like feminists naturally and I think we talked about feminism in the church

It's something people just accept, you know, they don't think they don't read their Bibles. They don't study. They don't understand the the consequences of No fault divorce and you know

Free free access to Unlimited access to all sorts of wickedness.

It's not Another thing to consider is that if the father is not in the home

Who's teaching that son to be a man if there's a boy in the home? They're gonna become more feminine and it's not their fault.

They're hanging around all women they need to see a man and have a male role model in their life and not learn about feminism and Victimization and they need to be taught how to be a man.

That's what makes society better So I think that's that's an issue as well. It's just it's that's things that might not be visible

But it's true that when you look at sons that grow up with their mom Some of them work out and they're manly men

But a lot of them they have feminine traits that that need to be ironed out and they need a man to see an example

And lead by an example Mark you got to go. You got to go look at our episode last week.

Tim's wife was on and she was back down the feminists But you bring up a good point is is that they're around, you know, most most teachers are women

So they're gonna be around right now teachers all during the day that are women and and especially what's going on in public schools not is really scary and night and like you said or you get the other extreme where there's a revolving door of men coming and that's

Yeah, that's worse. A lot of us is most people who've been through a divorce a

Boyfriend that a woman meets at a bar could literally have more access to the child the next day than their own biological dad has and And I've seen so many situations where somebody you know, someone is dating a convicted felon who lost custody of their own kids

But they're allowed to see the father's child Every day, you know the majority of time and that's

Breaking for the for the father to even think about that that someone else's is raising their son and things like that especially maybe even a felon that's

That's heavy. Yeah, and that that happens. I have a lot of my followers contacting me that say that they're like, you know, my

Just started dating a convicted felon and I'm getting every other weekend. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah That is insane I think Joe it might be it might be good just for the audience to talk about Some of the reasons for divorce and and when it's okay to get divorced

And Matthew 19 for sexual immorality But I also want to say that doesn't mean you have to get divorced.

That's just an allowance or a What do you call that a

You're allowed to do it doesn't mean you have to do it to get divorced sexual immorality and then if the unbelieving spouse leaves and departs and and and Separates God says that you're free, which is good, but it's not great for the children.

But Malachi 2 16 God says what he hates divorce So I think that we should be a culture that doesn't support divorce

But a culture that also hates divorce and doesn't want to see it and fight For what

God says is that what God has brought together? Let no man separate and I think you can even it's mainly for you know

People becoming one, but I think you can even apply that to the children when two people become one and they have children

We don't want to see anyone in that family separated We don't want to support that at all.

So I think just just to give some biblical grounds of Divorce might be good. No, that's great.

You know what else you've got? You got to remember that Jesus says only for sexual infidelity

Paul does not go against Jesus when he says you're free because your spouse abandoned you

Abandonment is Adultery, it's spiritual adultery. Yeah. Yeah, true

And the reason why he allowed it was for a time was for the hardness of our hearts, right?

And really from the beginning God God doesn't want anyone to get divorced So if you can stay with your spouse and and if you're a man love

Your wife like Christ loved the church and giving yourself for your wife and then women respecting and submitting to your husband's

It's the biblical way and guess what? It works because that's God's design. It isn't man's design Man's design of this, you know father being here woman being here and then we're helping out and supporting this the state is

Okay with that. It's it's not good. It's a high place and I'm glad I'm glad we're trying to tear that down today

Damn Joe brought up to there's a war on the American family, you know, we've all known, you know you see every when

I was growing up there was leave it to beaver where Ward was the Killer of the family and the

Brady Bunch and and all all these, you know, wholesome families growing up nowadays

I challenge anybody to find any show or any movie where the dad is the hero in Every show in every movie that is the goof the dad is the butter

And mom's packing to to heavily armored She's packing a gun on each hip and she's blowing people away.

I mean, it's yeah violent. She's all violent and Yeah, sorry

Joe didn't rub even when you watch crime shows you see the women is like, you know The one taking down the bad guys and stuff.

I'm like in reality that wouldn't happen like no offense I'm not like a super strong guy But if a woman is trying to chase me down and tackle me, it's probably not going to happen.

But in these shows it's like You know, it's like in every show occurrence. It's something like that happens Yeah and there's there's just a total war on and because they realize if they can get the dad out of the house and break the family up Now all of a sudden it's very easy to get all the societal things that they want going on to get people depending on the government

To give them dependent on the state to really push the the leftist wacko agenda Yeah, the only thing holding that agenda from getting inside is the church and the family

That's the boundary that we have and if they can break and what's the easiest way to break down the church?

Break down the family and get people going to some of these woke churches that are more interested in filling the pews and not worried about preaching the gospel anymore and Watering things down and all of a sudden people just become receptive and intolerant.

I hate that work Mark the highest place. I think what you're you're making me realize is the highest places are always against the children every single really high place like look at abortion the children are getting mutilated before they have a chance to be born and look at Like transgenderism and everything like that.

It's messing with the children and then the father's not being the home It's messing with the children. The devil is

Attacking our children and as men we can't let it happen as men

We got to do better and as just as a church We got to do better preaching the gospel and preaching the word what the word says and try to get people

To change from that that that woke ideology and that that feminist thinking all of that.

It's horrible for the children I think we're just so worried about the mom and protecting women. That's great

But let's try to protect all people and especially the children who are the most valuable in the kingdom of God and the greatest in the

Kingdom of God who have angels with them all the time and people are gonna face Serious judgment for messing with these children, especially children of the

Lord National Association of Christian lawmakers that Senator Jason Rayford that founded that organization has just done a phenomenal job of standing firm and Getting people who are gonna stand firm in legislatures all across the country

So it was just a neat experience to be there. That's a that's a good group I want to show

I want to show two minutes of that clip there because if you want mark this is the last two minutes we saw you you were you were you were sitting here and I Don't know you got a little iced tea going on there, and I'm just gonna show this

This was really great, man I think this is like I want to do this because this is like a victory lap after watching you for so many years

We're gonna keep this moving Because we are very short on time and take one quick question from just a little housekeeping here

You said you had 29 states are most of those states have the same legislation What I'd like because we need to get his model legislation if the majority of states have one particular one

We'd like to see that that's it. Thanks. So I was gonna Say something but senator

I'll just let you do this if you want to so I'm I was thinking we should take this up as A as a potential model policy.

So would you like to make a motion? Yeah, I make a motion We take this up as a model policy and get the best ones of the 29 states that he has and put it together

Okay, and there's a second the model state is Arkansas, by the way Second second, it's represented

Vance seconds. All right, so all those in favor say aye All right, he posed great one more and that is

I'm gonna say that I think we should also I'm gonna make a motion. I think the

Bible makes it clear that you shouldn't be divorcing for any reason Christ speaks directly about that in one of his in one of his teachings and I think it would be great leadership on the part of this organization and the part of this committee if We would as a work product begin the process of looking at a model policy to repeal no -fault divorce in all 50 states

Would anybody like to second that? Okay, great mark, thank you so much for coming

I think you got more than maybe you thought you would here I hope you did Working with you brother

Man, I just love that love that mark. I just I just Bumps the the thin thread that that happened you don't see it, but there's about ten legislators on each side of the panel it's a

What National Association of Christian lawmakers does at the end of their week -long conference? They all get together and they vote on model policies that basically every member agrees to that hey, we're gonna support this policy in the state that it's introduced and My goal has always been to partner with larger organizations in that what

I call shared parenting community We get a lot of people who mean well, but they have no legislative experience and they come across as angry dads or or threatening

They just really don't know how to get legislation passed so I've always thought we need to hitch our wagon to other organizations that believe in the family and But normally when

I got invited to this place, I thought it was gonna be literally a four to six year process I'm thinking okay the first year

I go there. I'm a nobody I'm gonna try and introduce myself to as many people as I can The second year hopefully two or three of those remember me and I can meet some more people maybe about the fourth year

I'll try and introduce something It'll fail but I'll come back and by the sixth year. It'll be passed.

This was my first year out of the chute and To have them within 20 minutes of me walking or 25 minutes of me walking into that room

Just it just so happened that Tom Oliverson who was the chair of the committee that you saw that talked about no -fault divorce

We've worked with him in, Texas We had worked with Mary Bentley from Arkansas who was also on she's on their

National Board of Directors. She was in that room That's why I referenced Arkansas. We had senator a zinger from West Virginia who helped pass that bill that we're all in the committee but the other thin threads

I'd had my eye on this committee for a while and Their board of directors

There's a guy named Bob McEwen who's a lot of people consider one of the top ten most influential behind the scenes guy in,

Washington, DC If you watch the news and you know who you're looking for, you'll see him all the time is being interviewed but Bob McEwen a heads a group called

Council for National Policy There's a guy named Tony Perkins who heads a group called the Family Research Council, which is one of the larger organizations out there

Buddy of mine Bill Fetter, that's an author. That's originally from here in st. Louis There's a

David Barton from wall builders down in, Texas And then Jason Rappert are all on the board of directors.

Oh and this Mary Bentley from Arkansas they're all on the board of directors for this National Association of Christian lawmakers and Oh and Mike Huckabee who had me on a show.

That's a big supporter of mine Those are their board of directors What is the thin thread that we would have seven of their board of directors all supporters and the funniest thing is

I Had heard about them and I knew I wanted it, but I'd never met their founder this Jason Rappert And I had been invited by Bob McEwen to go to an invitation only meeting this was about four months ago in California and they choose where you see sit at dinner because they wanted you to meet other people and A girl named

Gina and Delicato from down in Arkansas and her husband Patrick had been telling me mark You've got to meet this

Jason Rappert guy. You've got to beat him. He is exactly what you're looking for for two years They've been telling me this and I go to this dinner and I sit and I look next to me and he isn't there yet But I see the place aiding setting says senator

Jason Rappert. I'm like, oh my god. This is great So we talk we start talking.

We have a great conversation I mean immediately hit it off and That's when he starts telling me who all of his board of directors are and then he invited me to speak immediately three months later

I mean the thin threads that I just cannot imagine that happening of Within three months being invited by the founder of the organization to come speak and three months later having them pass model policy

A lot of people give me credit. I'll tell you what. I'm not being humble at all. That was God Man threads that had to happen to make that come about that was just when he said markets probably more than you were expecting

I'm sure I still How did that happen? I mean I plan that if I wanted

I was blown away when I saw it brother I mean, I guess I missed a couple years of stuff that you guys been doing and and it's just so happy So excited to see that and and thank you for being ready to serve and and just being on the front line

You know, you just got to show up, right? You know, you don't want to take credit, but you've been showing up for a long time.

So Having to this I volunteer between 40 and 60 hours a week.

That's not an exaggeration Last week. I was in Denver for meetings and literally my day started at 630 and there there was one night

I was up till 2 in the morning Well, let's not let's not let the audience think that everything's done what what are we what needs to happen next to keep this

Momentum rolling and it looks like I mean look this was this that event we were looking at just for the audience

That was at Liberty University. These are a bunch of powerful Christians across the country.

We do have them They are and they are in some seats of power. We still and we got to hold on to that We talk about that all the time.

We got to hold on to our we got to Empower our Christians like Mark Ludwig that are getting involved in government.

We got to empower them to do more good work So what's next Mark? I'm glad you mentioned that because we've got a long way to go and I give the example

It's just like what a lot of the the people out there the the wackadoos out there You know, they didn't change policy overnight to where you know what we saw in the

Olympics with that opening I didn't watch it, but I've seen all the screenshots of of the opening ceremony of the

Olympics But people look and they think how did we get to a society where it's acceptable to on TV during prime time?

when kids are watching to be having a male, you know what hanging out of his his pants that people saw and You know all the different, you know, the gay and lesbian and transgender and all that kind of stuff going on It didn't happen overnight

It was a very small they nipped here and then here and then here and then here and all of a sudden

And so what we need to do is and that's what I'm working on It's the same thing.

My start is working on that rebuttable presumption to realize that kids need both parents in the home

But it doesn't stop there. We need to keep on going to say, you know, we need to keep that home together in the first place

That's why I was talking about that purpose for funding for family reunification But we can't go from where we are

To to where we need to be in one year. It's not going to happen So what we have to do is slow little process to get society to realize wait a minute

This is unfair that the children are missing out on one parent, you know after divorce or separation

We need to get that child reunited with both parents Then we can start really building and really realize, you know, if they're together, you know parenting together anyway, why don't we try and save the marriage and And like I said, we do the reverse of what's been to society done to society over the last 50 years

So I do have so far we've passed legislation in Like I said six states

We've got a lot more to go this year. I'll be introducing legislation. It was going to be 29 now It's up to 30 states that I'll be introducing legislation in and we've got a lot to go.

So Anybody who's interested in helping we'd appreciate the appreciate the help and support

What's your website mark The organizational website is Americans for equal shared parenting.

So it's a F ESP calm So a F ESP calm.

I do have a very big Facebook presence on my personal page though for some reason

Facebook shadow banned the organizational page I guess because it has the words American in there.

I don't know but If you if you go to my personal page my reach on that has been in the millions

So if you just look for oh, yeah, very good. Yeah, but if you just look for my personal page on Facebook That's the easiest way to to follow what

I've been up to You're being shadow banned because you're trying to save families and you're trying to save marriages and you're trying to save kids and That's not what the spirit of the age wants to do.

The zeitgeist is against you You know, so we've got it. We've got it. We've got to empower you mark

I think you're you're talking about you may even come to New Jersey in the near future mark does these Markos from state to state to state wherever he can get a bunch of people together to rally behind pushing legislation through To help kids and oh by the way, you know, we got to tell mark mark, you know

We got to tell people tell them the financial Hill we're going up against because lawyers make so much money in divorce

Give them I always I always go back to that example from the movie Divorce Corp. That says that it's a million dollars

Oh billion would it be spent per year on weddings and 50 billion spent on divorces per year?

What's what's the new numbers? That's all pre kovat. I think that was a ten -year -old number. What's where's that?

It's over sixty billion dollars For the divorce industry and it's and sadly, you know as I alluded to I've got so many followers on Facebook That reach out to me and say, you know what?

I didn't hate my ex nearly as much until I walked into that first family law office and The attorney looked me in the eye and said, you know, hey, you're not gonna get 50 -50 in our state

So I need you to help me dig up dirt on your ex They know you'll give up on your car

You'll give up on your house But you're not going to give up so easily on your kids and they can rack up those billable hours and it racks up I've had several people that I personal friends of mine that spent over a half a million dollars on a case

Only to end up getting 50 -50, which is what they should have gotten Anyway, and what percentage of of parents do you see getting zero custody if not in court immediately?

But a few a few years down the road Functionally because one parent has complete control

Or just in the court to I mean like what percentage of people just get no custody whatsoever I think you said 13 or 14 percent.

Yeah, they say they that what they call the extreme toxic cases and this is the cases a lot of times people like to try and use they use the extreme examples of a

Parent who was abusive or something like that. That's not the average parent I always tell people that's that's like going the end of the assumption that every person who drives a car gets a

BWI You know, yes, some people to get a DWI and they've proven they're not a fit willing able driver

But the average driver out there isn't a DWI driver. Well, the average parent out there isn't abusive

It's a very small number they estimate between 9 and 13 percent are in extremely what they call toxic relationships where there's either abuse or Parental alienation that we call it which is where they try to mentally brainwash a child against the others or or use all kinds of Techniques, so it's only about 9 to 13 percent of those cases

But it is so sad Like I said, I've seen so many of those cases where people have called me crying saying

I just you know I met my dad for the first time today and There's one case that I I know of that a guy he used to be the executive

Assistant to Tony Perkins from the Family Research Council and I met him a couple of years ago

I jumped in an elevator with them in Washington, DC And I had a little name badge on said

Americans Frequent Shared Parenting and I was getting off at the fourth floor He was getting off at the seventh floor and he said

Americans and I said, oh we helped try to make sure that kids can have equal access to both parents after divorce and I get off on the fourth floor and he gets off and He said, you know, tell me more about what you do it and I did and Then all of a sudden he just starts balling and he said mark.

He said let me tell you what He said when I was nine years old my parent or no when I was That's right when

I was four years old my parents got divorced and he said I had been told that I was the reason for the divorce that my dad didn't want to be a dad and That he got scared off at the end of that.

It was too much work. So he ran off and didn't want nothing to do with me He said my mom ended up getting remarried when

I was nine years old and he said the person she remarried Was a child abuser and he said night after night after night

I endured things for that man That you would never imagine happening to a child and he said that happened until I was 15 years old

And he said so for six years. I was physically abused every single night when my mom went to bed and He said finally she realized what was going on and left him

But it was it was too late at that point the damage had been done But the other thing is when she remarried his last name and I'll change the names, but we'll just say his original name was

Smith and The new dad's name was Joe or we'll say Stevens Okay So he said

I was adopted and I was given the adoptive or the stepdad's name and and I became You know so -and -so

Stevens and He said I lived my whole life hating my dad and resenting my dad He said

I blamed my dad for the abuse that I went through and all the rapes that I had to endure And he said finally

I was so mad at my dad. I wanted to confront him So he said I tracked him down when I was 31 years old and I didn't want to give him it out

I wanted to show up at the door. I wasn't gonna call him. It's an appointment. I'm showing up at the door I want him to look me in the eye and answer and I want him to know what

I had to endure because he walked out and he said Mark said I show up at this guy's door.

I knock at his door and he said instantly he could tell that I was his son and He started getting tears in his eyes and he said, you know,

I'm so -and -so and he said I'm your son What do you have to say for yourself and and he said he went to the closet and pulled out a bankers box

And he said he immediately started showing me return to sender birthday cards Christmas cards

Thanksgiving cards Everything and he said and then he finally got to the part where he showed me the bankruptcy papers and he said son

He said I spent everything I had every ounce I had I lost my job because I was going to court all

I could think about was you and what to be a dad To you and I finally lost everything. I had I was out on the street and they said

I finally realized I just got to put the mask on myself and hope and pray. He said so I've been praying for this day all my life and So he ended up telling me and then he shows me his name badge and remember he said his original name was

Smith and he goes Mark, I'm a Smith again. I got my name back and Beautiful Amazing that he's rebonded with his dad and the relationship that they were able to get back and everything

I hear those stories all the time of people and you know It's sad, but so many kids are growing up hating their dad because they only got half the story

They didn't get the truth and so I would encourage if there's people out there in that situation and there's a an

Organization out there called the anti alienation project with a girl named Maddie out in Utah that has done a sorry this is hard to talk about stuff, but a girl named

Maddie and She basically that's the same thing happened to her unfortunately, she was 19 or 20 when she reunited with her dad and find out the truth, but she goes to college campuses and So she'll go to like CSU and set up a table with a huge banner that says have you been told that your dad doesn't

Love you. Wow Doing this within the last year. I bet you so coming.

Oh Already, she is getting so many people that come back a week later crying to her saying

Maddie. Thank you so much I tracked my dad down this week and I found out I've got a relationship with my dad again

And so I I just applaud Maddie I love what she is doing, but she has a goal to be on college campuses all across the country help reuniting kids with their parents

That's wonderful Wonderful. Well mark, we're at the top of the hour I know we got a couple of minutes before we do our traditional sign off But I just want to say is there anything else that we need to any information?

We need to get to people phone numbers web addresses We got AF East SP comm listed up there.

You mentioned your Facebook page I don't I don't think that was an easy address to get to but hey, I got to it

I got to your Facebook. I just followed you. I love your You had a couple posts.

I'll share real quick one of you just posted a couple quotes children are not a

Distraction from more important work They are the most important work and I couldn't agree with that statement more and I see you're doing a lot of work and it's become your your your

Your your motivation in life and what you've been doing and then another quote I like if you want to see the true measure of a man

Watch how he treats his inferiors not as equals and and hey, that's what

Jesus did when he came to the earth He was God walking around and and he treated humans very well.

So Hey, I just say and just great cut not that these are your quotes But these are type of things that you post and I already love two of them.

So I'm Yeah, very much I got the I started writing a journal to Levi during the 204 days that he was taken from me because I didn't know if I like said

I'd been told I would never see him again And I'd heard horror stories. So I thought I'm gonna start writing notes

I never put his mom down, but I just wanted him to know I was thinking about him So I put more my it's more of a father -son bonding

It's not a attack on his mother in any way whatsoever Pretty much. She's not even a part of it

It's just just thoughts of what I want my child to know if he tracked me down someday and a matter of fact

I Did the wrong one

I've got a whole drawer full of these

Wow literally Almost every single night since he was born.

I've written to him and I have a whole drawer there. There's about 40 of them in that drawer and then

I've got another 20 something in a safe deposit box But Wow also started putting as he got older life lessons like that about Hey if you ever go into business with someone or if you ever date someone

Take them out to eat and observe how they treat the waiter or waitress when you don't you know They don't know you're looking watch how they treat somebody who's a special needs child.

Watch how they treat a pet It's gonna be a very good indicator of their character. So I've got a lot of life lessons in the journal

Fortunately, I was around and and I can teach him some of those But getting back to what people can do

I think the most important thing is a lot of people want to win a couple splits up they almost want to take sides and You know if they've been friends with the wife

You know gang up on how bad the dad is and I encourage people to take a stand and And say, you know not not to put someone down in front of a big group

I don't like when people you know, you don't counsel someone in a group you do it a private setting respectfully

But people need to be bold enough to be able to say hey, you know what? I know you're hurting

But try and always remember that's your child's other parent that you're talking about No, you know, especially in the first month after a breakup, it's it's the thing to do

I guess to but we need to stop that That's not the thing to do it and I'm very big on that Even with people, you know,

I have a lot of dads following me that want to rail on their spouse and I and I stop them You know, we're not in a group setting where I would embarrass them and we're private

I will always stand up and tell him. Hey, look, I understand you're hurt But the more you verbalize how bad your ex is and how much you hate your ex and she did this you're just reinforcing a very bad parent co -parenting dynamic for your child

Take a step back and ask yourself. You're not going to change your spouse what they do is what they do the only thing you can control is how is it going to affect your child and Ask yourself.

Is it healthy for your child to you to get upset every time? Let's just focus on your relationship with your child and not worry about attacking your ex all the time

So that's the number one thing people can do is is to try and put a damper on that Adversarial relationship.

Hey mark I gotta say I gotta say you really convicted me on that because I know some families like that Where I'm around and they talk about that and and maybe it's a mom talking about their child's father

I never met the father but from what I know about him, you know, I know nothing about him

He could be the best guy in the world But the way the mom talks about him, you know, you would think he should be in jail

So I'm like maybe that's not the case. So maybe I want to You know, you're encouraging me to maybe

Encourage the mom or whatever that the other Parent not to talk bad about that.

I don't know. I just normally find that whoever is talking bad. The most is usually problem and I'm starting to suspect that in the cases that I I see it a lot and I have a lot of friends that that Are and I'm a youth pastor even you know

Some of the kids moms and dads that I know I am I think I'm gonna you know It's encouraging to me to say

Lee so thank you mark. Yeah, it's not it's not always the case either way though, you know It's it's so it's so difficult in a lot of cases and I know we've got cases in our church

You know that where the other parents taken the child and is playing keep away

So, of course, you're never gonna see that other person and that other person may be speaking out there But at the same time

I cringe every time I see someone say how brave someone is because they're a single mom

Or a single dad Always ask the question. How'd you become single? Hmm, you know always ask politely with best intentions and praying that there's a good answer

But if there's not there's an opportunity to disciple. Yeah But yeah, just a lot of prayer that we can slowly like I said

It's gonna take some time to make change and that's the hardest thing it never happens as fast as you want it to but We got to start turning things around slowly

So if people can can be in prayer and and I could use a lot of prayer I of course I've got just a great great pastor if you've ever heard of the group

Phillips Craig and Dean that the contemporary Christian music group that a lot of their worship music is is in a lot of churches, but Sean Craig is my pastor here in st.

Louis and I believe he's one of the best -selling artists of all time. It's in the hundreds of millions

Downloads If you google Phillips Craig and Dean on YouTube, it's it's staggering the numbers

But he has to do worship every week or has he got someone else doing it? That's it He will never play in his own church because I said, you know,

I don't want people coming to church for Phillips Craig and Dean Our church is named cross point and he said mark

The reason our church is cross point is because the focus is for the cross If the focus ever becomes me and my singing this isn't a church that you should be going to So even though he's one of the biggest downloaded

Christian artists of all time. He will never play ever in our church and Men's barbecue or something.

Um, he does for volunteers Once a year a volunteer thing for all the people at volunteer and all the different areas

Phillips Craig Dean comes in and does a free concert for the volunteers once a year Nice, but a great mentor to me to help keep me grounded to realize

I'm the messenger. I'm not the message we get a lot of people in the shared parenting community that start out fighting for kids and Almost after a while.

It's almost like they want a trophy or a monument designed after them and and And I don't mean to put them down But you know, it is, you know when you start getting that much attention on social media can go to your head

Yeah, I still have a long way to go But I work very very hard to make sure that I stay grounded to realize it's about the message.

It's not about me I'm just and you're and I'm very grateful to have been from here chosen to be that messenger but if people can be in prayer for me that I will always keep that in mind and To pray for my efforts because it is very hard as I said financially

It's a struggle. I mean not not to brag But I think I'm a semi intelligent guy that if I wanted I could get a pretty decent career going

But I feel this is my calling in life and and rather than having you know, tons and tons of money

I'd rather know that I made a difference that someday Other kids aren't gonna have to go through the same thing that my son went through so people could be in prayer for that I would greatly appreciate it.

Amen Absolutely, Mark. Thanks so much for being on the show. I know you've got to go we do a little we want we do a little

Outro and I don't know if you've seen any of our other shows But what we do just so you can participate is we first we pick a brother up then we tear a high place down so Just just kind of wing it jump in.