December 30, 2019 Show with Josh Buice on “Worship: Regulated by God or by Man’s Preferences?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

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We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 30th day of December 2019 before I introduce today's guest and topic.

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I just want to thank Steve Lee and Bill noon Kessler and everyone else who orchestrated the foundations conference in New York City that I recently attended

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It proved to be as always an extraordinary Experience and one of the primary reasons is because I finally had my opportunity to interview

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Someone who I've been trying to interview for over a decade Paul Washer the world -renowned preacher and evangelist and author and Founder of heart cry missionary society

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Paul Finally since I was face to face with him and since I got the approval via text from his pastor

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Anthony Mathenia I got the approval to interview Paul. He always insists upon the approval of At least one of his pastors before he does an interview and thankfully

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Anthony Mathenia Instantly responded to my text request to interview

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Paul And said that's a great idea and Paul conducted the interview. He was very apprehensive at first but during the interview

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I could sense that he was really enjoying it because he was laughing and Just very spirited in his voice and then later on he confirmed that he really enjoyed the interview

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Because he grabbed a hold of me later on about an hour later in the fellowship hall and said brother

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I want to thank you for that excellent interview. You can contact me anytime for another interview.

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You're really intimidating, but You're a really nice guy. And in fact if if most people think

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I'm intimidating then you must be really intimidating he said and then he even confirmed it even more by Sending me a commendation a written commendation for my show that absolutely blew me out of my socks

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So thank you so much Paul Washer and Anthony Mathenia For making that interview possible and God willing it's gonna be aired on Iron Trip and Zion Radio with other

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Interviews we conducted on -site at the foundations conference In the very near future

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But now it's time for me to introduce somebody whom I love to interview pastor

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Josh Bice who's an author conference speaker and Pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia He's also the founder and director of the g3 conference, which we will be discussing momentarily

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And today we are addressing the very important theme worship regulated by God or by man's

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Preferences and it's my honor and privilege and delight to welcome you back to iron sharpened

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Zion radio pastor Josh Bice Glad to be with you Chris And I'll give our listeners right away our email address if you have a question for pastor

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Josh Bice on the issue of worship regulated by God or by man's preferences Our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter a pastor

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Josh before we get into the theme at hand Can you tell us? Especially for the benefit of our listeners who have not yet heard you interviewed on iron trip and Zion radio

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Who missed our previous interviews tell us something about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia?

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Sure. Yes, so I have the privilege to serve the church where my wife and I grew up as children it's just west of the city of Atlanta and it's 177 years old and Actually, we're about to enter the 178th year

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Existence yet, so it's quite It's quite a privilege for me to serve this church this the members of this church nurtured me and and You know invested in my life early on and so after going away to seminary and pastoring out of state for a period of about Seven years in God's providence

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He called my wife and I back home and I've been serving this church now for nine years

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Praise God and if anybody wants more details on praise mill about this church go to praise mill calm and praise mill is spelt

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P -r -a -y -s M -i -l -l dot -com and can you tell our listeners about the unusual name that you have?

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, so Praise mill was was originally constituted as a church and Given the name praise mill p -r -a -y apostrophe s because of the founder

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Ephraim pray who came from Maine with inheritance money and He settled here in this community and there was no local

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Baptist Church within any, you know close proximity to his His home place.

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So he donated the land and he had a He had a lumber mill that he was running.

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So he donated the lumber as well to build a building that would be used during the week for A schoolhouse and then on the

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Lord's Day would be used for the gathering of God's people So they wanted originally to name it after him.

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So he said absolutely not so they decided to name it after his mill Praise mill

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Baptist Church. Yes, it is not a derogatory Name that someone might call a church p -r -a -i -s -e mill like it's some kind of a mill for praising and of course that would be

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It's sounding like using the term mill some kind of a derogatory name No, this is actually the mill that was owned by a man named pray where they were worshipping so and again, the

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The website is praise mill p -r -a -y s mill calm and there's no apostrophe in the website, obviously

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All right now One of my Favorite of all events.

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In fact, I think it is my very favorite. In fact, I don't even have to say I think I know It's my very favorite

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Conference that I have been attending annually from up the last three years and this will be my fourth year this

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January 16th through the 18th. God willing Is the g3 conference which stands for gospel grace and glory and why don't you tell our listeners about that?

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monumental event Yeah Well, it is it is quite an event

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Chris and it's just a privilege to serve and to be able to lead that conference But it really started back in you know 2011 2012

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Myself and another one of our elders we were having conversations about starting a conference That would be useful and beneficial to pastors in our area and not just pastors

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But you know fellow brothers and sisters in Christ those that might not be serving in leadership But would want to come to a theology conference so we ended up developing this idea to do a conference a three -day event

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Thursday to Saturday and we thought we would end up with maybe about 250 people or so and You know, we set a date which would be

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January of that that first year of the conference, which is 2013 and we chose a theme and the theme was going to be on the gospel and we chose the name as you mentioned before G3 gospel grace and glory because we wanted people to have this

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Foundational understanding that they're coming to a theology conference. In other words, they're going to be

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Spending a great deal of time in the Word of God studying the Bible listening to the Bible proclaimed and Explained and so this is not just you know a conference where you're getting together with friends and it's sort of like a

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Christian pep Rally, but this is something where you're going to be digging into God's Word singing the gospel.

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Yes, there's going to be fellowship yes, there's going to be a lot of fun involved, but it's going to be a serious minded approach to biblical theology and So that first year we ended up having to close registration in December before the you know before the conference arrived in that January and That would be the process that we would end up repeating for the first four years of the conference and finally in 2017 we we moved to the

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Convention Center for the Reformation Conference where it grew astronomically and then has been ever since then growing each year

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So this year we are anticipating Nearly 5 ,000 attendees, so it's going to be quite impressive

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And you know something I've been saying this and I'm not clairvoyant nor am I a prophet but with John MacArthur Added to the lineup.

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I have a feeling you may have over 6 ,000 people there Yeah, I mean who knows who will show up, you know that hasn't registered yet But just by looking at numbers now, we're going to be right about the 5 ,000 mark and This is on Worship matters is the theme for 2020 and That is obviously connected to our discussion today.

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Do you want to give a broader explanation of the of the theme? Sure. Yeah, so I think it's critically important when we think about doing a conference like this to choose themes and Think through why it is that we're choosing a theme to be developed over that weekend

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And so we started with a gospel. We've gone through various different themes such as You know the church and the scriptures and the

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Trinity the Reformation conference discipleship We've got really last year with a missions conference so this year's on worship and the reason again if you look at the trajectory of these conferences, we've been trying to keep a certain focus on You know where we went from the very beginning where we were and where we're headed into the future and so as we think about You know planting churches and doing evangelism doing missions for the glory of God and once those churches are

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Established now, what has God called us to do? Well, he's obviously called us to be worshipers

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And so I think that if we are really honest with ourselves If we would evaluate the worship that's happening in many

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You know just many evangelical circles if you just look at the you know, it doesn't have to be one specific denomination

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But if you just look across the denominational lines and you look at evangelical churches

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You will see a wide array of different worship styles and preferences

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And you will see all sorts of different reasons that people choose certain churches.

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In other words, you might ask them Why why have you chosen a certain church? And they might start telling you about how this church makes them feel or how a certain program is offered at this church for their children or the type of Music that makes them happy or you know, whatever it might be.

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And so when you start Evaluating all of those markers you start coming back to the central idea

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That we have really turned worship upside down in other words we've turned worship into something that's more man -centered rather than God -centered and so we believe that Doing a conference that's completely devoted to worship and unpacking that theme over the course of a weekend

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Would be very helpful to local churches all around the world now obviously

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I've titled this this discussion worship regulated by God or by man's preferences obviously, even if you believe

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In the regulative principle as it is called where the worship of God is to be in which it must include things that are commanded in the scripture and We are prohibited from being

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Innovative and adding things that God does not command in the scripture But at the same time

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Even if you believe that there are still preferences involved

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Obviously not everybody who believes in the regulative principle for instance Worships exactly the same way some of our brethren will strictly stick with the old hymnals

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Some of our brethren will include worship that you even feature on occasion at the g3 conference such as the

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Gettys which we would obviously consider well could because it is contemporary worship, but it is done in a very

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Christ centered and biblically focused manner And then you even have those who disagree over what the regulative principle means because we have brethren who are exclusive somebody avid advocates who only

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Sing the Psalms in worship. Anyway, they may sing or listen to hymns extra biblical hymns that Are not in the

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Bible during times of fellowship or just during private times of relaxing or Or what have you but but who would say during the corporate worship of God?

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We are only to use The Psalms and and they are even divided Amongst those who are strictly a cappella or those who permit musical instruments

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So there is difference even amongst those who would agree with you that worship is regulated by God Through his word.

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Am I am I correct? Yeah, obviously so there's gonna be different views but Rather than those views being centered merely on preference those views are founded upon some sort of Interpretation based on the

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Word of God so we may differ on that interpretation But those who hold to those specific convictions are doing so based upon scripture at least

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Those who understand those particular Positions are and so I would say I don't

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I'm not held specifically to the Psalms because I see text in the New Testament that indicate that we're to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and So we can say well, then we can sing something other than psalms

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But yes, we need to be singing psalms as well. And I think that we need to be honest with the Bible Regulates our worship.

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So the Bible Actually provides us the boundaries by which God has called us to worship and how he demands that we actually

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Approach him in worship. I guess where I was coming from is regarding preferences still being involved in the regulative principle is that you know, as I mentioned earlier you will have

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Worship involving the Gettys and so on and there are some of our Brethren who would even think that that is too contemporary who think that the instrumentation might be too modern for their preferences and some would even

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Act as if there is a biblical prohibition against that kind of instrumentation

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But I I think they're hard -pressed to find anything in the Bible that could prove that but but there is there is preference

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Yeah, yeah, I would totally agree with that. I would say that Within the framework of people who would hold to The use of instruments in worship.

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You're going to have a more conservative position and then you're going to have a more Non -conservative position you might say so that would lead you to Using different styles of those instruments.

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So yeah, that would be included and in fact there are even differences amongst those who are strictly a cappella in the way that they

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Worship because they might even think that the melody of some of their a cappella Brethren is too lively or or modern, but we will never be in complete harmony until we're in heaven over these things

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And I don't want to stop right now talking about the g3 conference because I think we need to continue whetting the appetite of those who might attend it is

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Your conference, I don't even know how you pull it off but the roster of speakers at your conference is

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Longer and deeper than any conference I've ever attended or even heard of I think We should have let our listeners know at least some of the highlighted speakers are dr.

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Steven J Lawson who I just had the privilege to interview again on site at the foundations conference

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Of course Anthony Mathenia who I mentioned earlier was who's the pastor of Paul Washer and by the way

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Paul even though his name Is no longer on the the internet roster he told me after our

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On -site interview at the foundations conference. He said he's gonna be there at g3. Is that's still the case

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Oh, it is still on the website Oh for some reason I I Don't see him anywhere right now looking at the photographs, but Paul Washer if you've never if you've never heard him

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Take a train plane automobile or parachute anywhere. You could get to hear him because he is absolutely magnificent I'm amazed whenever I speak to someone a

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Christian who does not know who Paul Washer is and in fact, I just the sharing fellowship with the

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Sister in Christ that I've known for about 20 years and she had never heard of Paul Washer. So I immediately

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Texted her a YouTube link for one of his sermons. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries

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Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you the media ministry of John MacArthur My friend

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Todd Friel of wretched TV and radio Derek Thomas who is a world -renowned Presbyterian author conference speaker and pastor

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Hopefully, dr. Tom Askell will still be there after his recent Health issue.

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Do you have any update from Tom whether he still intends to be there? At this point

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Tom is still planning to be with us. He is progressing rather well, and he has Demonstrated and expressed his gratitude for the prayers of everyone.

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He's been praying so those that might be listening who have any understanding of the the health concern that Our friend

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Tom has gone through recently. We want to say thank you for praying for him Amen. Well, he is the executive director of founders ministries, which is a

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Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention Stephen J Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by the way

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RC Sproul and Ligonier ministries Kosti Hinn, I'm so glad. I don't know if I was a catalyst in this because I remember

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When I first mentioned Kosti Hinn to you a number of years ago You did not know who he was at that time but I'm so delighted that you finally did invite him to speak at the g3 conference this coming up this

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January 16th through the 18th, and he is the nephew of Benny Hinn the world -renowned or should

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I say notorious? Heretic and charlatan and and Kosti doesn't mind me saying that because he says that much and more

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Because one of the primary goals of his evangelistic ministry other than of course first and foremost declaring the gospel is to renounce and expose the deceptive deadly and damning deceivers in the word of faith movement of which his uncle is a part.

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In fact a leading figure and Kosti has renounced that upbringing of his and Is now a reformed

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Baptist and a cessationist in Arizona he was up until very recently pastoring in in California but now is in Arizona and of course we have

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Daryl Bernard Harrison what a gifted brother he is and and There are many more but John MacArthur as I said earlier

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Has been added to the roster and I would go to the g3 conference if it was just John MacArthur Okay Absolutely, but since you mentioned that and since you mentioned that Chris I think it would be really good to just say

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Since we're talking about worship today and since we're going to be talking about worship at the conference John MacArthur wrote a little short book on worship

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Talking about the the ultimate priority of worship some years ago, and it is such a really good book

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I would encourage anyone who's listening to just purchase that book Especially if you're planning to attend the g3 it would help you prepare yourself for what you're going to hear during the conference

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Amen Well, and there are more on top of that and If you'd like to get more information, of course

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We're going to be God willing mentioning this website later or throughout the conference throughout the interview

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I should say it is g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and as I've been saying every day

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I urge you not only to register to attend but if you are a business owner a parachurch leader or you're running some kind of an event that you want the body of Christ to be aware of in large numbers as long as you

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Pass the theological litmus test of the g3 conference. I would urge you to register

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For an exhibitors booth just like I will be manning for my fourth year in a row They are something always and I'm not exaggerating something always extraordinary happens

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For iron trip and Zion radio whenever I man an exhibitors booth there at the g3 conference

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And of course, I'm assuming that those of our listeners who want to register for an exhibitors booth should do so even more quickly than Those lists those just wanting to attend as individuals because the space will run out before For the exhibitors booths before the attendees, right?

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Absolutely, Chris, so we have maybe one or two spots available for anyone who wants to exhibit

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So if you're interested and you'll need to reach out to us very quickly and you can do so just by going to the website and finding the links and then just Reaching out to us if you have problems and you can always just give us a call through the church office

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Great. Well, we have a listener already who has a question for you Josh.

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We have John and banger, Maine Who says I've been hearing the complaint a lot lately the people who say

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I'm Conferenced out and they seem to think that Christians make too far big of a deal about going to conferences and running them what is the appropriate response to such brethren because obviously if you conduct an annual conference you would disagree with it and I disagree with people who say that number one if you're conferenced out and stop going to them, but but I Think the issue and I'm sure you would agree.

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The issue is not whether someone is conducting conferences the issue is

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How biblically faithful are they and how biblically faithful are the speakers and so on and then if you could say anything else you'd like to say in response to that Yeah, so my response would be that I think that you know

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If you're conferenced out then maybe you should think about attending less conferences But I don't think that conferences in and of themselves are wrong or bad

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And I do think that there can be an unhealthy Sort of an unhealthy commitment to conferences just as well as there can be an unhealthy commitment to seminary that would somehow overshadow the local church, but something that G3 Conference has maintained from year number one and will

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Always be committed to so long as I'm involved with it is that we're going to be champions of the local church

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So when we start off in the very opening address We're going to be talking about the importance and the priority of the local church

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In fact, I'm going to be preaching from First Timothy chapter number three And I'm going to be talking about the church and then when we finish in the closing

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Benediction of that conference on Saturday. We're going to be talking about now that we have spent time together for three days

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It's time to go back home and to get into the trenches and to love one another and serve together and worship together and Exercise our gifts together in the context of a local church

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So the problem is not conference in and of itself the problem is the mindset of someone who might say

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I'm going to go from conference to conference and Neglect my local church. That would be where the problem is

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But if they come with that sort of mindset to G3 They're going to find themselves very uncomfortable because we're going to be champions of the local church

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Amen one of the great values of conferences that I have found over the last 30 years of my being a regenerate

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Christian It I would compare it to expository preaching

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If you have a pastor that hobby horses on certain subjects and is not involved in expository preaching where?

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complete Books and chapters of the of the Bible are preached through week by week

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Where you get more of a full -orbed Understanding of the

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Word of God the whole counsel of God If somebody's is hobby horsing you're gonna miss out on that and you may stunt your spiritual growth you may only understand and learn about a handful of teachings from the scripture or comparative handful and Of course

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Preachers who do that are more likely than those committed to expository preaching to be involved in isa

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Jesus and Perpetuating the traditions of men and so on and the reason why

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I'm comparing conferences to that is that there are men And I hope that I'm not insulting too many pastors out there

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And let me start off by saying I think that pastors must Guard their pulpit very seriously, but at the same time some have such a an exaggerated

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View of their own importance and abilities that they never let anybody else

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Ascend into that pulpit unless perhaps they are themselves sick or on vacation and That I think you're robbing the congregation of of being introduced to really gifted brethren in Christ, and I just thank

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God for my My not only my very first pastor Mike Gadosh Founder of solid ground

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Christian books who is my very first pastor who baptized me But even my current pastors at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania They do not

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Protect their pulpits in a greedy way and they have conferences they expose

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The congregation or introduce perhaps is a better word They they introduced the congregation to men of God that are very gifted that they might not ever hear preach if they were not more generous with their pulpits and They may have insight into the scriptures that Pastors and then this is not a an insult

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They may have insight into different aspects of the scriptures and theology and doctrine that the pastor of that church may have missed just like each and every

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Christian has Some kind of a blind spot and my am

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I making sense here? Yeah, I totally agree And that's why I mentioned the seminary thing a moment ago is because I think

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I think that seminary can be a wonderful tool For the for the you know growth of someone who might be called to pastor a church to develop their gifts

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Again, I think that sending them to to certain Institutions that are committed to the local church and to developing pastors like the master seminary is is

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Extremely critical. But again, what is a seminary? It is a parachurch ministry. It comes alongside

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The local church so you can't allow the cart to get before the horse or there's going to be a massive wreck

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Down the way someplace. And so if a conference is somehow Overshadowing the local church then we've missed it or it might be some ministry like, you know some sort of college ministry and you might think well, you know, it's not really as Sexy or Appealing or it doesn't seem like frontline ministry to just be a part of the the ordinary simple, you know

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Worship and service within my local church as it is maybe within that certain, you know ministry on the college campus

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So you give up on the local church and you commit yourself to Something other than what

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God has called you to because God has not called us to give our lives to these These ministries that somehow become, you know

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Somehow, you know imbalanced you might say or they overshadow the local church

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God has called us to center our lives in the context of a local church.

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So again, I think conferences are really good things Obviously I do or I wouldn't be a part of the g3 conference in the g3 conference ministry itself

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But I do think that we will always Maintain this healthy approach to point people back go back home get involved use your gifts be committed to your local church

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Praise God. Well, we're going to our first Station break and If you would like to join us on the air

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com She HR is a

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RN Z and gmail .com as always Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence

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If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

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Let's say you disagree with your own pastor or elders over the manner with which they worship or perhaps you're a pastor you disagree with your own congregation or fellow elders or denomination over this issue or whatever the

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Case may be where you would prefer to remain anonymous because the matter is personal

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We would be more than happy to Allow you to remain anonymous, but if it's not a personal and private matter if it's just a general question please

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Give us at least your first name Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

33:39

USA and pastor Josh I don't know if you have access to your email, but I'm actually going to forward you a question

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That so you could look over and if not, I'll just read it to you. Anyway, when we return from the break But I just thought it might help you to have the question in front of you.

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It's from a first -time listener that we Delighted we are delighted to have submit a question for the very first time

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So don't go away. God willing. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors

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G3 conference calm and now there's even more exciting news John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the g3 conference

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Thursday January 16th through Saturday, January 18th 2020 go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm.

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Who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

37:30

Christian faith I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing one of the very few Safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

37:38

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

37:46

Chris up for just such a time And knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron

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Financially, would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron

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When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or Switching to the

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NASB. I'm dr. Joseph Piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina and The NASB is my

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Bible of choice I'm pastor. Chuck. Why did the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air Pastors are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

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Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio go to nasbible .com

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That's nasbible .com to place your order. Welcome back This is

42:52

Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour and 15 minutes to Go is pastor

43:00

Josh Bice of Praise Middle Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, who is also the founder of the g3 conference

43:05

We are discussing worship regulated by God or by man's preferences and our email address is

43:11

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you have a question and We have a first -time listener

43:20

Cindy in Findlay, Ohio Just a trivial or should

43:26

I say a trivia? Issue is that in my area of Pennsylvania Carlisle, Pennsylvania?

43:32

I think that the predominant Denomination that surrounds me at least amongst evangelical denominations is the

43:42

Church of God General Conference General Conference which was founded in Findlay, Ohio just a little bit of trivia, but they're all over the place even in this one town

43:51

We have I think at least four or five Church of God congregations, and I know quite a number of the pastors and have enjoyed fellowship with them, but Pastor Josh we have this question from Cindy and I'm assuming that she only wants me to read the the bold words in the the email she has

44:14

Preface to her question, and I'm not going to read because I have a feeling she didn't want me to but anyway

44:19

It says good afternoon gentlemen Thank you for taking our questions my Bible reading this morning began in First Samuel with the story of Eli the priests and his wicked sons

44:29

I could see somewhat of a correlation between this story and the contemporary worship of the church today the sons of Eli did not reference the character and nature and the commands of God and Altered the rituals to suit their own passions in a broad sense the same thing is happening in the

44:50

Contemporary worship service it seems to be more for pleasure and entertainment of the parishioners

44:57

Rather than all exaltation of our Holy God since worship is to exalt

45:02

God But also be our pleasure where do we see the excess is?

45:08

There room and of what sort for personal pleasure in a worship service, thank you very much for your consideration excellent question in fact

45:17

Upon visiting Roman Catholic churches for funerals and weddings and other events.

45:23

I have been tempted to hang a sign near their candle section that this was in loving memory of Nadab and a by Hugh Anyway The very good question because obviously we take pleasure in worshiping

45:39

God in fact There's something wrong with you I think spiritually if you're not enjoying worshiping God when you're singing and so on if you could answer

45:47

Cindy's question yeah, I think it's a foundational question indeed on the subject of worship

45:53

But I think when we think about the the idea of enjoying something like for instance.

45:59

I enjoy eating But if I enjoy eating apart from God, then I turn to gluttony if I enjoy intimacy with my wife apart from The lens that God has provided for me in Scripture Then that leads to abuse or at least it leads to self fulfillment rather than just merely something that should should

46:24

Bring us joy, but at the very same time be something that exalts God When it comes to worship

46:31

It is absolutely okay to enjoy worship, but that is not the primary

46:38

Goal of worship the primary goal before anything happens horizontally or even inwardly

46:45

It's to be something that happens vertically so in other words. We are to offer up worship to God vertically and That should bring us satisfaction

46:55

Inwardly and then that will take care of other things elements you might say in a horizontal fashion but if we approach worship with this idea that we simply want to find the style of music that we enjoy or The type of preaching that we enjoy or the specific voice of a pastor that we enjoy

47:18

That soothes us or whatever it might be Then we're missing the point and the call of worship so Again, I think that we will absolutely enjoy

47:29

God if you think about the catechism What what is the chief end of man right and so we are to enjoy

47:36

God forever? Now yeah now present tense and forever, and we will always enjoy him

47:44

But the idea is that we can't somehow go to our own

47:49

Self -fulfillment before we think about how we should be approaching God the way that God has called us to worship him

47:56

Do you think that is? connected To how much you love

48:03

God? Even though the primary aspect of worship is not our enjoyment at the same time if we love him

48:11

We're not going to be habitually bored by worshiping him and singing praise to him or Or refraining from singing to him

48:20

Yeah, or hating singing to him if we love him We're going to be more compelled and instinctively want to Joyfully sing and worship sing to and worship him more so than we throw compliments and words of adoration to our spouses

48:44

To our best friends to our favorite preaching heroes or Musicians or whoever the people may be who you cover with accolades.

48:56

We're going to be even more excited and Joyful to sing and worship our

49:02

God Yeah, I think Chris one of the problems in worship if you think about it is that Sometimes you might say well,

49:11

I'm I'm bored, you know in a worship service Well, there could be a couple of different reasons for that boredom, right?

49:18

So it could be really bad preaching that has caused you to be bored with God or it could be

49:25

Carnality and sin in your own heart. It's caused you to be disengaged during the preaching that has caused you to be bored in a worship service or The flip side of that is you might be really excited and think that you are experiencing the heights of joy and praise of God during the singing and Then you evaluate the words and the words are superficial

49:47

Shallow or might even be unbiblical altogether. So we have to evaluate Consistently evaluate.

49:54

Why is it that we're experiencing joy or why is it that we're experiencing boredom? and how can we sort of Navigate these challenges in such a way that we are approaching

50:05

God the way that God has called us to and then that brings us ultimate satisfaction, I Hope the folks at this congregation if they're listening aren't overly offended but time

50:17

I can clearly remember It's it's etched in my memory or should I say scarred? It has scarred my brain.

50:24

I had visited a church where I have friends and And They opened up the so -called worship service with a song that Basically, in fact, not even basically it literally

50:41

Repeated this line over and over and over again probably for at least two minutes if not more

50:49

This is how we worship him clap your hands. This is how we worship him clap your hands and actually

50:57

Found it necessary to put that line over and over and over again on the on the screen

51:04

Where the words were projected I don't know how anybody could forget the line But it was repeated over and over again, and I was just filled with anger

51:12

I dropped my hands to my side and I Maybe repeated the line once or twice, but then

51:19

I stopped and I kept thinking in my head How angry what I would be if I had children

51:26

I would even be angry if they were singing that in a so -called children's service With that one line repeated over and over Yeah, yeah, absolutely when you think about worship

51:38

We think about why it is that we go and and and engage in the worship of God the way that we do

51:44

I think we should evaluate everything I think that everything from the opening scripture reading to the benediction everything that we do should be evaluated according to the lens of Scripture and We must ask ourselves this question.

51:58

Why is it that we're doing what we're doing? Why is it that we find joy and value in what we're doing here?

52:05

Why is it that we have this worship bulletin here that that has the order of worship?

52:11

why is it that the leaders of this church have chosen the various elements and the aspects of this worship service and have arranged it in such a fashion to put

52:21

Priority and significance on certain things or to devalue other things you might say

52:28

So all of this is critical when we think about worship We have to go to our midway break right now and pastor

52:34

Josh. I'm going to be forwarding another Question to you from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina Folks this is our longer than normal break because grace life radio

52:45

Who airs this show twice a day in a pre -recorded format requires of us a longer break in the middle?

52:52

Because they need to localize iron sharpens iron radio to their hometown of Lake City, Florida according to FCC regulations

53:00

So, please take the time Wisely and not only write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them

53:11

Which we rely upon in order to exist Please not don't forever forget that we rely upon our advertisers the finances that come from them to even remain on the air

53:21

So write down the information for many as many ads as possible so that you can more successfully and frequently

53:28

Patronize them but also write down questions on worship to Pastor Josh vice and that is

53:36

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. That's our email address Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as always

53:41

Please remember to Give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

53:46

USA and only remain anonymous If your question involves a personal and private matter, we'll be right back with pastor

53:52

Josh vice I'm James white of Alton Omega ministries and my friend

54:04

Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another g3 conference together in Atlanta Georgia Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us worship matters

54:17

I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas Joel Beakey Paul Washer Steve Lawson Phil Johnson Tom Askew Bodhi Balcombe and the world -renowned preacher teacher and author

54:27

John MacArthur a Fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn nephew of the notorious false teacher

54:34

Benny Hinn Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a reformed

54:40

Baptist pastor and cessationist in California Come join me and Chris Arnzen at g3 2020

54:45

January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at g3 conference comm that's g3 conference comm see you there

54:59

Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio Announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine by trusted source for news from a

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Forward slash podcast that's W for world and for news

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G for group org forward slash Podcast this is pastor

56:26

Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of, Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio

56:38

Financially Grace Church at Franklin is an independent Autonomous body of believers and strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

56:52

Lord Jesus Christ And of course the end of all which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee in Franklin is just south of Nashville.

57:04

Maybe ten minutes Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

57:11

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church Our website is

57:23

Grace Church at Franklin org. That's Grace Church at Franklin dot o -r -g

57:30

This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

57:36

Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

57:43

An iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

57:52

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio

58:01

Audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB I'm pastor

58:07

Nate pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton ironworks, New Hampshire And the NASB is my

58:14

Bible of choice I'm pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

58:20

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Suley Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario Canada and the

58:29

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor John Sampson of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona and the

58:36

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

58:44

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Steve Hereford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida and the

58:52

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Roy Owens jr.

58:57

Of the Church of Friendship in Hockley, Texas and the NASB is my Bible of choice

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air Pastors are your pew

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Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

59:19

Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio Go to NAS Bible calm.

59:24

That's NAS Bible calm to place your order James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the dividing line webcast here

59:35

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church now

59:49

Located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York I've had the privilege of opening

59:55

God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

01:00:03

New York debates I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught

01:00:11

Discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ I also want to congratulate

01:00:19

Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder Pastor Christopher McDowell for more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church.

01:00:29

Go to hope reformed li .net That's hope reformed li .net

01:00:35

or call 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 1 1 that's 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 1 1

01:00:42

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on iron sharpens iron radio

01:00:50

I'm so grateful to our

01:00:58

Sovereign God that while manning an exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron a major Bible conference I providentially met

01:01:04

Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church Just south of Jacksonville, Florida right off I -95 in st

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John's County Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an ideal guest

01:01:21

Christ Reformed Community Church shares my conviction that God is both creator and sustainer of the universe

01:01:27

He rules and reigns providentially over our lives He directs not only the historical events of the world, but also the personal events of individuals

01:01:37

I agree with Christ Reformed Community Church that the very purpose of the church is to make disciples that we are tasked with the

01:01:44

Responsibility to evangelize locally nationally and globally and that we are to equip the

01:01:50

Saints for the work of service Unlike the man -centered seeker sensitive movement They do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by how many people are in a church

01:02:00

But by the faithful ministry of God's Word and gospel for more details on Christ Reformed Community Church visit

01:02:07

Christ Reformed cc .com That's Christ Reformed Cc .com

01:02:14

or call nine zero four nine five five nine eight eight one

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That's nine zero four nine five five nine eight eight one

01:02:24

Tell pastor Andrew that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio I'm pastor Andrew Smith And I'd like to urge you to consider joining

01:02:32

Christ Reformed Community Church of st John's Florida in financially supporting iron sharpens iron radio

01:02:47

I Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read

01:02:54

He who never quotes will never be quoted He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read

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Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of preachers to heart

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The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world

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Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered

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That's solid dash ground dash books calm and see what priceless Literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground

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Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio

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My name is Steve Lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier ministries

01:03:56

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students

01:04:05

Andy Woodard serves as the pastor It's called New Covenant Church, NYC They are a reformed

01:04:11

Baptist Church that meets in Midtown, Manhattan You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

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.nyc They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel

01:04:28

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

01:04:38

New Covenant Church, NYC Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

01:04:45

.nyc Have a great day Hi, I'm buzz

01:04:52

Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio I would like to introduce you to my good friends

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Todd and Patty Jennings at CV BBS Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

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Todd and Patty specialized in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

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They make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic

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Heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors. Their website is

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CVBBS .com Browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you the church and to Christ That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com

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That's CVBBS .com Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and you can also call

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CVBBS .com at their toll -free number 800 6 5 6 0 2 3 1 800 6 5 6 0 2 3 1

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And they only man that phone line at Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. And 4 30 p .m.

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Eastern Time and I have a request for you Since we have two book related sponsors vine trip and sign radio one is a publisher that's solid ground

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So, please keep that in mind and please remember solid ground Christian books and CVBBS .com

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for all your holiday gift -giving needs and and Also edify yourself by replenishing your own library with the finest in Christian literature before we return to Josh Bice We just have a couple of announcements to make

01:07:36

First of all coming up on Thursday, January 9th from 11 a .m.

01:07:41

To 2 p .m A mutual friend of pastor Josh Bice and mine is going to be speaking at the next iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon

01:07:49

That's Justin Peters of Justin Peters ministries Justin was born with cerebral palsy and one of his missions in life is just like the aforementioned

01:08:00

Kosti Hinn one of his Goals in life is to expose The dangerous deadly damning and deceptive teachers in the word -of -faith

01:08:13

Pentecostal movement Justin will be speaking on the theme protecting the flock from wolves at the iron trip and Zion radio pastors luncheon

01:08:22

It's absolutely free of charge to all men and ministry leadership. You will not only be fed for free and here

01:08:28

Justin Peters speak for free, but you will also get Many many many free books that have been donated by major Christian publishers in the

01:08:39

United States and the United Kingdom and This is a tradition that began with my precious late wife in the 1990s where she recognized that I had more

01:08:49

Friends who are pastors than anyone she had ever met due to my work in Christian radio So she suggested that every year we conduct a free pastors luncheon where nothing was ever for sale there there was no gimmick or ulterior motive it was just a time for rest relaxation refreshment and feasting and Hearing an excellent preacher of God's Word and receiving gifts all for free

01:09:14

So I've been doing that not only when my life my wife was still with me But even when she went home to glory for eternity,

01:09:20

I Began resuming those luncheons in her honor and memory

01:09:25

So I hope that you can come Thursday January 9th 11 a .m. To 2 p .m.

01:09:30

At the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Send me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:09:38

to register chrisarnson at gmail .com. It's absolutely free You could also see all of the details at the iron sharpens iron radio website iron sharpens iron radio calm iron sharpens iron radio calm and Then coming up January 16th through the 18th the g3 conference that we've been discussing on the theme of worship

01:09:56

That's going to be held at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta It's on the theme of worship as I said, and there is an enormous roster that we've already mentioned

01:10:10

And if you'd like to register not only to attend but they have one or two spots left for exhibitors booths

01:10:15

If you want to if you want to a man an exhibitors booth you better register for that quickly

01:10:21

But the website is g3 conference calm g3 conference calm I hope to see you there and I hope that if you're attending you visit my exhibitors booth for our interpreters on radio and I will be giving away a

01:10:34

Limited number. I believe there will be over a hundred but there'll be a limited number of new new

01:10:40

American Standard Bibles for anybody that comes to visit the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth as long as supplies last and Just have another

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Reminder to you folks if you love iron sharpens iron radio You don't want us to disappear you love hearing the guests and topics very often.

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01:12:41

Also, if you are not a member of a local Bible believing church, and you're not even perfectly looking for one

01:12:47

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01:12:54

and put I need a church in the subject line. I've helped many people Weekly find churches all over the world where they have either visited and joined or where they have

01:13:04

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01:13:11

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01:13:16

Chris Arns in a gmail .com and but I need a church in the subject line That's also the email address where you can send in a question to pastor

01:13:23

Josh Bice on the issue of worship That's Chris Arns in at gmail .com

01:13:28

Chris Arns in a gmail .com our specific theme today is worship regulated by God or by man's preferences and As you know pastor

01:13:37

Josh. We had a question from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina And by the way, I think

01:13:42

I forgot to tell Cindy of Findlay, Ohio since you are a first -time questioner you want a free

01:13:49

New American Standard Bible So, please give us your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com

01:13:55

can ship that out to you absolutely free of charge Compliments of the publishers of the

01:14:00

New American Standard Bible and also compliments of cvbbs .com who's picking up the postage fee

01:14:07

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina says brothers Chris and Josh I'm so looking forward to attending the g3 conference

01:14:12

Lord willing and I'm so looking forward to the topic Our everyday walk should be such that we continually worship our

01:14:19

Heavenly Father and as a result Glorify him for the world to see recently.

01:14:25

I read this quote from Oswald Chambers Faith based on experience is not faith faith based on God's revealed truth is the only faith there is

01:14:34

Would you agree with this? I certainly think it's true in our day and age because so many are basing their worship and faith on their experiences yeah,

01:14:43

I think that I think that when you Again, I would want to know that the full context of the quote for one

01:14:51

But I do think that there's a problem of sort of one bitch that you might want to avoid which would say that you have to Base all of your faith on your experiences.

01:15:04

And so it's all about, you know, having some sort of Experience whether it be some sort of mystical experience or that you heard a voice

01:15:15

Or felt that God was was speaking to you in a specific way or or whatever it might be

01:15:22

But I do think that when we think about the experience of our faith

01:15:28

It must be built upon the firm foundation of revealed truth because without biblical truth

01:15:34

There is no genuine experience of faith to enjoy It really just turns into some sort of speculation or mysticism or even man's imagination

01:15:45

So I think that an experiential faith should always be built upon revealed truth

01:15:52

And again, I do think that that's critically important when we think about how people approach worship today

01:15:59

They think about they have to feel a certain way or they have to you know That song gave me the goose bumps or whatever they might say

01:16:06

So I think that again our faith needs to be rooted in the revealed

01:16:11

Word of God Amen, thank you. Grady. Thank you for listening. And thank you for also being a faithful financial contributor to entrepreneurs on radio and also contributing to our discussions very often with your questions, we always look forward to them

01:16:26

Grady and Looking forward to seeing you at the g3 conference as well Let's see here we have

01:16:34

Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York and Christian says

01:16:40

Do you believe that? musical instruments Instrumentation melody and rhythm are neutral.

01:16:47

I have been become very surprised and having discussions with extremely conservative

01:16:54

Reformed Christians who share my doctrinal theological Convictions who think it is wrong to claim that melodies and rhythms are

01:17:05

Not simply neutral matters. They believe that we should be able to utilize the rhythms and melodies of any ethnic or national origin of an assembly of believers and not restrict ourselves to those rhythms and melodies that we would consider more

01:17:25

Anglophile, how do you respond to this? Yeah, I think that You know culture is always going to play into the way that you worship

01:17:35

God So for instance, you know, if I were to go over and visit with my friend

01:17:40

Bodhi over in Africa in Zambia I'm gonna experience a different style you might say in their worship service

01:17:50

I'm gonna hear a different type of rhythm I'm going to hear some some different tones you might say in their

01:17:58

Voices that I might not hear if I were worshiping with my church on the

01:18:03

Lord's Day So I don't think that it's my church that's right or that it's his church that's wrong or vice versa

01:18:11

I think that the issue is this Are we worshiping based on revealed truth?

01:18:17

And again, you know you hear this sort of Debate Amongst people who might say well,

01:18:24

I think that contemporary Christian music is wrong. And I think that southern gospel is right

01:18:30

Well, I think that we have to evaluate what do we mean by that? Well, because again that there's all sorts of errors within the contemporary

01:18:37

Christian music industry, obviously They've capitulated in many ways. They've embraced all sorts of unbiblical doctrines

01:18:46

However Southern gospel is not somehow immune to that sort of problem either and you hear southern gospel songs that are just littered with man -centered views of soteriology and Arminian view of salvation and so I think once again when it comes to rhythm it comes to the use of Instruments when it comes to the way that we sing.

01:19:14

I Was the heart engaged what is the song that we're singing?

01:19:19

What's the message? What's the theology behind this song? Because I think that that's what matters the most

01:19:26

But again, I think that we have to be cautious in saying well then anything goes at this point

01:19:32

So long as the words are right, we can do whatever we want Because once again, if you hold to the regulative principle of worship, you're gonna

01:19:40

Always be bound to the way that God has called us to worship him

01:19:45

And so I think we have to be very cautious and again I realize that there's going to be an open debate even amongst the groups who would say, you know

01:19:54

We embrace the regulative principle of worship Obviously that's from you know, the sort of basis from which this question comes

01:20:02

But I think that we just have to be once again going back to the idea What's the heart motive and what's the message of the song?

01:20:10

And then how are we using this? Is it merely to stimulate some sort of an emotional response?

01:20:17

Or are we actually engaging here in such a manner that we are praising God and worshiping

01:20:22

God? And and again, I think if we if we evaluate that consistently,

01:20:28

I think that we're going to avoid error both sides of the fence We're going to end up avoiding those ditches

01:20:34

Yes, one of the things that I have said to my friends and brothers and sisters who believe that Melody and rhythm is completely a hundred percent neutral one of the things

01:20:48

I've said to that in opposition to that is that melodies and rhythms can evoke and do

01:20:57

I should say evoke moods and And As as Doctor His name is escaping me right now deed

01:21:11

G David Gordon or T David Gordon T as in Thomas David Gordon Yeah He brought up an excellent point years ago

01:21:20

Probably over a decade ago on my show when I interviewed him on his book why Johnny can't sing hymns

01:21:27

He and I've repeated this on my show Often so forgive me if those listeners have heard it too many times, but but he

01:21:37

Mentioned he asked the question. How would you react if? someone who you love deeply a very close loved one has died and During the funeral service unannounced and not at the request of the deceased before the deceased went

01:21:55

Home to glory or just passed out of the off of this earth If a group of people got up and started playing the kazoo

01:22:07

He said, you know most people unless they knew that the deceased had requested that for some strange reason

01:22:15

They would think that this was a mockery of this solemn Tribute and memorial that was taking place to this person that passed away just because of the mood the frivolous and comical mood that was being

01:22:30

Evoked by the sheer virtue of these kazoos being played and I think that he had a lot

01:22:36

Right. I think he hit the nail on the head there because yeah, like even when I Am I am certain that if we were to visit?

01:22:45

Votey Balcombe and dr. Conrad and Bayways congregation during their worship and in Zambia that they would not be featuring in their worship services some of the tribal rhythms that pagans use in their worship where this actual screaming involved in people dancing

01:23:06

Perhaps even naked and all these kinds of things that may go on and and of course this isn't

01:23:12

This isn't limited to Africa even if you were to Use some of the death metal music for lack of a better term here in the

01:23:23

United States and Worship service where you you just hear somebody growling and screaming and you don't even understand what he's saying

01:23:31

Because of the mood Yes, exactly Or anything else.

01:23:36

I think the genre matters and I think we need to You know, I think we need to be able to separate put a line of Differentiation if we can between something that we might be willing to even listen to in private

01:23:50

But we're not going to use it for public worship And I think that we have to be willing to make those lines distinct because once again

01:23:58

God is holy and he has called us to be holy and that's not merely talking about the essence of moral

01:24:06

Perfection or purity it's talking about set apart from and so I think that you know

01:24:12

All of this is critically important when we think about the subject of worship and how we approach

01:24:18

God by the way Cindy from Findlay, Ohio kind of rhymes there

01:24:27

Cindy from Findlay she gave permission to read a part of her question that I Refrained from reading because I didn't know if she wanted me to read it since it was in a different typeface

01:24:41

And I thought it was kind of comical and it actually evoked a memory of my own She said

01:24:46

I recall a conversation I had with a gentleman He was offended that I would listen to contemporary Christian music because he preferred southern gospel.

01:24:54

I told him I don't think the Apostles listen to southern gospel and the memory that I have is

01:25:00

That I had radio clients Among amongst a group of fundamentalist

01:25:07

Baptists I had create I had helped them create on for radio years ago in the 1990s a

01:25:15

Program called the fundamentalist Baptist Forum or the fundamental Baptist Forum and I would I would be with them during Meetings they would have on how to improve

01:25:25

The radio show and things just to just to discuss business involving the radio show

01:25:30

And it would be comical to hear them argue Over what music is appropriate and some would say

01:25:37

I don't like you using that country gospel During your turn and hosting the fundamental

01:25:43

Baptist Forum. Why is that? I think that country gospel is the best gospel music that you can hear

01:25:49

Well, that's the kind of music that comes out of the honky -tonks, you know, so you have these arguments going on So even those who are the most conservative among us

01:25:59

Disagree over these things. Oh Absolutely. Yeah, but again to that point.

01:26:04

I mean you if you just look at the words and the theology of the song Contemporary Christian music industry is full of all sorts of horrific doctrines

01:26:14

But again, you can look at You know hymns that are in certain hymnals that are full of unbiblical doctrines

01:26:22

You can look at southern gospel music and you can find all sorts of unbiblical doctrine

01:26:28

So I think again, you must evaluate the theology of each of those songs

01:26:34

Regardless of the genre and you have to to evaluate that on the basis of how we're approaching

01:26:40

God And is this appropriate would God be pleased is God pleased with this? By the way, our friend

01:26:48

Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina says please let Josh know that if he wants to see the quote

01:26:53

I sent in its complete content Go to Oswald Chambers book my utmost for his highest

01:27:00

December 21 devotion Let's see, we have a

01:27:08

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know do you have recommendations for what you consider the finest in Christian music other than the

01:27:18

Gettys because I already know that you Join me and loving the Gettys, but anything else that you have to recommend would be highly appreciated

01:27:28

Yeah, well, I mean I think number one you need to start with a good a good hymnal and so we've just purchased for our church this past year and Instituted that in the life of our church as far as corporate worship the hymns of grace

01:27:42

Hymnal, which I believe is an excellent Hymnal and I would encourage you not only to Think in terms of corporate worship, but also family worship

01:27:53

So I would I would just encourage you to purchase a hymnal to use in your home so learn these songs and Try to you know, think earnestly about what you're singing so that you can prepare your mind and heart to worship with the gathered church

01:28:11

But then as it pertains to other types of music or or Musicians you might say

01:28:19

I like a variety of different styles. I do appreciate classical music and Appreciate that the history of classical music.

01:28:30

I like to listen to Musicians who understand that and again, you can see and appreciate that with the photo sisters who are going to be at g3

01:28:41

But then also there's other styles of music that I enjoy such as Bob Coughlin and Sovereign Grace music.

01:28:49

I'm I'm very grateful for a lot of the songs that they're putting out today So I appreciate them.

01:28:55

I would stand a bit off as far as distinct from some of their doctrinal convictions but I do

01:29:06

Very much appreciate their emphasis on the sovereignty of God and a high view of God Which again produces this this right view this right lens by which we would worship

01:29:19

God. So yeah, I would encourage Sovereign Grace music a good hymn book or a hymnal and then others like the photo sisters

01:29:30

And as far as that hymnal isn't that one that Philip Weber Philip Webb perhaps

01:29:38

Was instrumental in no pun intended was instrumental in in developing yeah, so Phil Webb has led that project and That was when he was

01:29:50

Again there in California He's since moved and relocated to Kentucky where he's furthering his education and has taken on a different position there but he's still

01:30:02

Overseeing Hymns of Grace and He will be singing at G3 this year again the pre -conference for G3 this year

01:30:10

We should mention is on singing the gospel for the glory of God And so we're going to have hymn writers like Chris Anderson who's one of the featured hymn writers in Hymns of Grace Phil Webb Bob Coughlin Keith and Kristen Getty and others who are going to be talking about in teaching and in leading and singing

01:30:31

For the full day on Wednesday prior to the start of the G3 and again after the supper break that evening at 7 o 'clock

01:30:39

There's going to be a full Getty concert, so we would encourage you to join us for that as well if you're able to Yes, and and master seminary is involved in that Hymnal as well, correct

01:30:52

That's correct. Yes, and for those of our listeners who don't know Philip Webb or Phil Webb is a at least a former professional

01:31:02

Opera singer, I don't know if he still is doing that but a very gifted brother in Christ Let's see here

01:31:13

We have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania and He says

01:31:21

Would you personally ever join a church and become a member there? even if they were in lockstep with your theology and doctrine if you believed the music that they

01:31:35

Had during their worship services was not in accordance to your understanding proper

01:31:41

Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say Yes with a great deal of qualifications for instance if the church was

01:31:52

In lockstep agreement theologically on all of them the major issues

01:31:58

But the the music that was used in the church was not explicitly where I think it should be but I felt as if the elders as they continued to lead faithfully through the

01:32:11

Word of God would be willing to Move in a direction that would be more biblical

01:32:16

Then I would be interested. Yes in worshiping with that church and joining that church however if I felt as if you know, they're just more committed to the stylistic and the cultural pressures of their of their people for instance, so they're committed to that versus a high view of Scripture and letting the

01:32:40

Word of God lead in the direction of of the way that the church should worship through song

01:32:45

Then I think that that would be problematic. So in other words, I think that a high view of the Word of God It's going to lead to a high view of worship which is going to lead to working out the problems that we often see as it pertains to the use of instruments or the abuse of instruments or the the use of vocalist or the the abuse of vocalist and So on and so forth.

01:33:10

So I think that that's the critical issue is is how is the church? Approaching worship is it through a firm commitment to the

01:33:19

Word of God or something else leading? And I think that that would be the the biggest issue. I Have an anonymous listener who wants to know do you have any advice when a congregation is on the verge of splitting and Is at a stalemate when it comes to a division over Worship music and there seems to be no budging or no

01:33:48

Compromise being involved well again I mean, this is a this is a heartbreaking issue to even approach or to think through so if you're going through that sort of thing, then and I'm You know,

01:34:02

I'm very sorry to hear that. I Think that when it comes to the issue of splitting over anything we need to ask this question.

01:34:10

Is it worth splitting over and Is it is it a doctrinal issue? Is it something that you know is so explicit so vital?

01:34:20

Is it a hill worth dying on in other words? And so again, if you go to various different cultural settings, you're going to have various different styles

01:34:27

They're going to be influencing the way that that church worships. And so we have to come back to this firm question.

01:34:35

Is that something that should cause me to divide over and And So again,

01:34:41

I think that maturity I think that love covers a multitude of sins We need to be willing to forgive one another as Christ has forgiven us

01:34:51

But then there are times unfortunately where leadership has not led appropriately or whatever the case might be that's caused division in the church and there you know is a some sort of a

01:35:06

Split that's going to be necessary and that sometimes is not a popular thing to hear but there is a time to part ways with people that aren't willing to Stand firm upon the

01:35:19

Word of God or have capitulated into sin And so I think the issue would be is it sin that's causing this division or is it the opinions of man?

01:35:29

and I think that that's a Probably the most critical way that we need to approach that situation and I'm Assuming that you would agree that if there comes that time where people must

01:35:44

Divide I mean church splits are not always nasty and ugly things you may have a church that divides because Some of the leadership or car or great number of the congregation may become convinced of infant baptism or something like that Where you recognize that that such a serious issue

01:36:09

Would require a division but I'm sure you would agree that it doesn't have to be

01:36:16

One that is conducted with without humility. It does not need to involve

01:36:22

The The view that the people who are dividing or that are leaving the congregation are

01:36:32

In some way event or in rebellion against God I mean sometimes these issues are involving people in rebellion against God, but they're not always that way

01:36:40

And when it comes to something like this that we're talking about unless there is some really overtly sinful aspect of the

01:36:48

Of worship that the people who are causing division in the congregation are

01:36:55

Are involved in we have to be very careful as to not wrongly judge those who differ with us.

01:37:02

Am I right? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I think that when we wrongly judge the heart and motives of other people it can it can create catastrophic

01:37:12

Division that can never be repaired And so I think that we need to be very cautious in that and avoid sin in all aspects of these debates

01:37:21

So debating an issue in the life of the church is a is a healthy thing How we debate that issue?

01:37:28

again can be the difference between a godly debate and Something that is you know devilish in devices

01:37:37

Well, we have to go to our final break. I'm going to read a question From RJ and White Plains, New York And then you could answer it when we come back

01:37:47

RJ and White Plains, New York asks Are the explanations and defenses for using worldly?

01:37:56

Rhythms and melodies in modern worship that Martin Luther did the same thing using barroom melodies

01:38:03

True or are or are these just myths and legends if you could answer that when we come back

01:38:10

Anybody else wants to join us on the air. We do have a couple of people waiting in line, but if you want to Get on that line

01:38:18

Send us an email as quickly as possible because we are rapidly running out of time our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:38:24

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away. We're gonna be right back after these messages with more Josh Bice Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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Call solid rock remodeling at seven one seven six nine seven nineteen eighty one seven one seven six nine seven 1981 or visit solid rock remodeling calm that solid rock remodeling calm solid rock remodeling

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Bringing new life to your home Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:48:30

Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century Our church is far more than a

01:48:36

Sunday worship service It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant

01:48:42

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

01:48:50

We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together

01:48:56

Hi I'm pastor Bob Waldeman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church

01:49:02

Can be call in Brook Baptist at five one six five nine nine nine four zero two That's five one six five nine nine nine four zero two or visit

01:49:10

Linbrook Baptist org. That's Linbrook Baptist org Folks don't forget when iron sharpens iron radio is over Please if you can continue listening to first love radio who is live -streaming this program so you can hear the preaching of pastor

01:49:24

Joe Jackowitz of Christ Bible Church in Dublin, California Who is also the founder of first love?

01:49:32

Publications and first love radio and they will be having they will be manning an exhibitors booth at the g3 conference as well, so please keep that in mind and Make sure you stop by their exhibitors booth and greet them and they will be giving free books away that they publish through first love publications

01:49:52

Pastor Josh, I made a serious error and I deleted I believe the last question that was asked by a listener and I was wondering if if I did ask that question before the break

01:50:06

Do you remember if I asked a question that was not yet answered by you? Yes, I do

01:50:11

Chris. The question was It was based on and I don't remember the exact quote, but it was based on the idea was all the

01:50:20

Luther melodies Well, it was based on the idea that the question was asked Did popular hymn writers and theologians such as Martin Luther use?

01:50:31

Secular tunes and Marry them to their to their lyrics for use in corporate worship or is this merely a myth and so Again, I think that we have to go back to that specific era and I think that we have to realize that the distinction between what we might call secular music and The music of sacred worship was not nearly as distinct in that time period as it is in our present day

01:51:01

And so there were instances where there were certain songs that were written and then used alongside or with secular tunes or melodies, but then once you know friction started to rise as a result of that and they ended up changing some of those songs and Developing new melodies for the use with that particular song for the use within corporate worship, so To use a scenario and say that they just merely took song

01:51:36

That were used in say taverns and then took, you know Good solid theology and then married the two together and then used it for corporate worship it's not really a good practice and again back to the whole idea of Melody and and and again harmony and lyrics and all of this

01:51:56

I think that we need to be evaluating How can we see the beauty and the value of God through each of these distinct aspects?

01:52:05

When we're singing because I think that each will bring out a different layer or a different aspect of the beauty of God So I think to minimize it and to not see the value in that is is critically

01:52:20

Problematic when you think about the importance of worship and how we sing and what we sing because both matters great

01:52:28

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York who wants to know are the topics being covered at the g3 conference?

01:52:36

exclusively involving Music because obviously there is far more involved in worship than merely music alone

01:52:44

No, absolutely not matter of fact in the very first session I'm going to be preaching on the subject of of the need for Reformation in in the worship of the local church and that it's the duty of the pastor to lead in ongoing

01:53:00

Reformation we oftentimes hear in our present day that that there's a reformation that's needed in the church today as it pertains to worship

01:53:07

I think that's always been the case and I think that it will always be the case because as the culture seeks to deform

01:53:16

Worship it is the duty of pastors to lead the church in Reforming what the world has deformed and we see that if we look at 1st

01:53:25

Timothy chapter number 3 And we see that Paul tells Timothy that it's his duty

01:53:31

To lead the church in proper behavior how the church ought to behave and that he caused the church the pillar and buttress of truth and So then he goes on and cites an early hymn that the church would have been singing together, which was really an early confession of faith, so I think at the heart of Christian worship stands the pulpit and the pulpit not just merely this wooden structure, but the pulpit with an open

01:54:00

Bible and that the preaching of the word is the first mark of an authentic church and How the church things will be very much connected to the preaching of the

01:54:12

Word of God if there's low preaching There's going to be low singing which is going to result in low worship.

01:54:17

And so we need to make sure that we are evaluating the worship of the church Through all of the aspects but specifically at the forefront and at the top rung in the ladder is biblical preaching

01:54:31

An anonymous listener wants to know do you find this as dangerous as I do? but many of my friends who are professing

01:54:38

Christians are involved in worship music where they are spectators in the congregation rather than those singing primarily and they are put in a position where they are to open their minds to Communication from God and to emotions and experiences rather than singing forth

01:55:00

Biblical truths that are filling their minds Yeah, absolutely. So again, I would urge you to come to the conference

01:55:06

I'm going to preach and address that in the first session two problems with that Number one is to open your minds to communication from God that supersedes

01:55:17

Divine revelation in God's Word is to bypass the sufficiency of God's Word And so that's problematic second of all we are not

01:55:28

Spectators in worship, we are participants in worship So it's not that there's this majestic choir that's singing

01:55:36

The choir is not the people that happen to be at the forefront of the of the worship center

01:55:41

The choir is the church itself And so it's not that you come to watch the preaching and watch the singing

01:55:49

It's that you come to participate in worship. And so we're going to address all of that at this upcoming conference

01:55:56

I'd like you to summarize in about a two -minute time period What you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today over the subject worship matters

01:56:05

Chris Why is it that John Calvin threw himself over the Lord's table when wicked men once tried to rush to be served?

01:56:12

After he fits the table. Well, it's because worship matters. Why is it that William Tyndale?

01:56:18

Offered himself and dedicated his life to the translation of the English Bible and then was burned at the stake

01:56:25

Well, it's because worship matters. Why is it that the Oxford martyrs? refused to recant and to embrace the doctrine of Transubstantiation.

01:56:36

Well, it's because worship matters So we must realize the priority of our lives should be focused on the worship of God And so a shallow and sloppy approach to worship not only dishonors

01:56:49

God But it is very unfulfilling and it misses the mark of genuine biblical

01:56:55

Christian worship So if you're listening to this episode today I want to encourage you to think critically about why it is that we worship and And and and how we should worship and all of this again is directed and it is regulated through God's sufficient word

01:57:14

Amen. Well, I want to remind our listeners that if you have interest in attending the g3 conference

01:57:19

Or even if you don't have interest right now, you might be interested even more So after you look at the website,

01:57:25

I go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm don't forget if you are visiting

01:57:32

Douglasville, Georgia or if you have family friends and loved ones living there or if you live near there and The church where you are a member is not biblically faithful or you're not even a member of a church

01:57:44

Please look into praise mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia Their website is praise mill calm

01:57:50

PR a y s Mill calm and don't forget folks the iron trumpet

01:57:56

Zion radio pastors luncheon Featuring a mutual friend of my guest today and myself

01:58:03

Justin Peters It's gonna be held Thursday, January 9th from 11 a .m.

01:58:08

To 2 p .m. On the theme protecting the flock from wolves That's gonna be held at the Carlisle fire and rescue banquet hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's absolutely free of charge.

01:58:17

If you are a man and ministry leadership, and you want to attend please register at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:58:24

Chris a RNZ n at gmail .com And you can look up more details right at the iron trip and Zion radio website iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:58:33

Iron sharpens iron radio .com pastor Josh spice. It's always a joy to have you on the show I look forward to many more interviews with you as long as your schedule will permit as long as God Will permit in his sovereign plan and I want to thank everybody who listened today

01:58:48

Especially those who took the time to write in questions I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater