Understanding and Debating Jehovah Witnesses with Nathan Fisher & Daniel Mynyk

Can you show me, because we're going to use some hermeneutics, can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual? Because again, I understand you're appealing again, sure.

No, no, no, hold on, hold on, hold on, I thought I was going to get to have a talk. You asked a question. Hang on a second, sir. Be quiet.

There you go. I will mute you because it's not your show. You asked a question. I'm going to give you the answer. Genesis 6 -4, the word olam is used referring to those who are of old. Deuteronomy, I'll just rattle off all the ones where it's used, not referring to perpetual.

Genesis 6 -4, Deuteronomy 32 -7, Joshua 24 -2, 1 Samuel 27 -8, Job 22 -15, Psalm 24 -7, 24 -9, 25 -6, 41 -13, 77 -9, 90 -2, 103 -17, 106 -48, 119 -52, 143 -3, Proverbs 8 -23, Proverbs 22 -28, Proverbs 23 -10, and Ecclesiastes 1 -10.

Should I go on for more?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host, from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport.

Introduction to Apologetics Live and the Jehovah's Witnesses Topic

All right. Welcome to Apologetics Live. Maybe, maybe I was trying to kill a dead horse there. I don't know. I ran out of verses to give that guy. Welcome to another Apologetics Live. That was a, that beginning clip we, was from my show.

I forget how long ago that show was, was on, but this is Apologetics Live. We come in and we can ask any questions you have. We're going to do open Q &A, usually second half of the hour. The topic tonight will be Jehovah Witnesses, what they believe and how to witness to them.

I've got some special guests in with us on that, but if you have any questions, just go to ApologeticsLive .com, Thursday nights, 8 to 10 Eastern time. Suggest you get in early if you have questions, because a lot of people like to come in at the end and then there's no time for their questions.

So come in early, you'll be able to ask first. And so any questions that you have, Apologetics, even if it's a challenge, that's fine. And we are here to answer those questions. So this is a show that is sponsored or supported by Striving for Eternity Ministries.

So go to strivingforeternity .org and check out all the resources that we have out there. It is also a podcast that can be heard on the Christian podcast community. And with that, I'm going to actually have one of our podcasters here as a guest.

Oh, I see Melody is in the house, which means we're probably, if she comes in, we might get the, you guys may, our guests may get the question. Those that know, you know, the Dunn's may know the question that they like to ask our guests and we'll see if they know the answer.

Hmm. All right. So we'll see the advantages. They probably don't even know what the question is. So it's great, Melody, you gotta, you're gonna have to come in now. So we want to do is talk about Jehovah Witnesses.

Now, one of the things I want to let you guys know is many people are familiar with Jehovah Witnesses. They know some of what they teach, they come to your door, they usually knock at inopportune times.

And a lot of people try to avoid them. And the thing is that understanding what they believe has always been a very helpful thing. However, they've changed their ways. They are no longer looking to engage with people.

So if you show that you have a little bit of knowledge, they run faster than you trying to get rid of them. So it is actually if you if you know some things about them, they usually do not want to engage with you.

So full belly bear I'll put his his full belly bear just get I every time I read that I chuckle but his comment is I don't even know why this is a topic some some Jew already has written a great book on Jehovah Witnesses.

It has everything. Well, I got news for you. You're going to be surprised full belly bear because let me first I'm first going to bring in Daniel Minnick. Daniel is one of the podcasters on the Christian podcast community.

Why don't you introduce yourself your podcast and and a little bit about what you do. And why we brought you on because you're writing a book on it. So that's why.

Daniel Minnick's Podcast and Watchtower Watchers

Well, my name is Daniel Minnick. I am the host of the truth espresso podcast. And as Andrew has mentioned on other programs, it sounds like I need a lot of coffee or espresso with my truth. But the idea is to basically focus on truth wherever it may be found from a Christian perspective.

And I like to deal with topics that are often not addressed. But still, from a Christian perspective, we like to get deep into theology, understanding who God is, who Jesus Christ is the attributes of God, atonement, but also even recently have been getting into topics of economics, especially during this era of the coronavirus.

Some I think it's important for some for people, especially Christians to be able to have a God centered worldview and not trust the state. But I'm also in the process of writing a book that is kind of long overdue from my perspective, because I've been kind of slacking a little bit on getting it published, but it is tentatively titled Watchtower Watchers.

It's actually a book that I co authored with my brother and my brother, john, he's basically the hero of the plot of the book. And the book is actually, you know, it's a conversation between my brother, john, and Jehovah's Witnesses from what he could recall from his three hour conversation.

And he was equipped a little bit from for that conversation with some of the information and resources that I directed to him. And then the book is kind of a transcript of a conversation, an interview that I had with him about his conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses.

So we actually get to see a look into a conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses, and a Christian. And then basically, john and I also converse from that interview to provide some more commentary on that.

And that was a neat book because it was more of a more of a casual conversational style. Now Melissa is asking is he standing up and using a mic? Yes, I am standing up. All right, let me also bring in Nathan.

Now I alright, before you introduce yourself, Nathan, I just got to point out to everybody, can you can you just shift to your left a little that the other left? Okay, you see that those all those volumes of book those two bookcases, the entire right side of that, that is by far the best Jehovah Witness library I have ever seen in my life.

So thank you for letting me show off your your bookcase. I have empty books, I feel so sad. My books are practicing social distancing. No, Nathan, you you and I, and for the record, you know, Nathan knew exactly how to get me to come over to visit with him.

I was I was at I was not too far. How far is Pastor Ray from you? Okay, minutes.

Pastor Ray is probably about five or 10 minutes away. Yeah.

Okay, even less. So so he's like, over 10 minutes away. And, and I get a text from Nathan's just saying, Hey, you know, I see that you're over at Pastor Ray's. If you want to come over, my wife will make homemade sushi.

He knew exactly, exactly how to get me over there. And, dude, she made more sushi there. It was it was you and I are wives. And then you ended up having like three friends come over and there was still sushi left.

It was a lot. I tried. I really did try. But, you know, one of the things that I was that Pastor Ray had told me Ray Rhodes, who wrote the book Susanna. He told me ahead of time, he's like, you got to see his library on Jehovah Witnesses.

So I was like, all excited. So when you brought me up to see it, I was like, Oh, good. I get to see it. Okay, nerdy. I know. But could you introduce yourself? You're a little bit of your background so people understand why do you have the library you have?

Nathan Fisher's Background as a Former Jehovah's Witness

Yeah, so my name is Nathan Fisher. And I'm a third generation Jehovah's Witness. I had left the cult probably about I think it's been 20 years or more 21 years. And my dad, I grew up as an elder son. And he was the main elder or is still the main elder in the congregation that he is in within the Jehovah's Witness organization.

He was a Bethelite, which is another term that they use. It's their headquarters where they do all of their printing work and training of the Jehovah's Witnesses for about four or five years. I think he served up in Brooklyn, New York in the 60s, I believe, then he met my mom.

So I grew up in a pretty strict Jehovah's Witness family being trained to be the best Jehovah's Witness I could be. So I started collecting these books probably about three years ago when I came to Christ and decided to use them for apologetics purposes, research purposes, things like that.

All right. And we have a question that came in already. Can you tell me what it is that they Christian or what's their, I guess belief? I will I and I guess I should so I put up full belly bears comment, but I do have a book that's let's see right there on the screen.

What do they believe? That's a good book to get it'll go over Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Jewish people, Catholicism, Christianity, explain what they believe. So there's also there's some heretic in the room.

Look at this. Let's bring let's bring this character in. Oh, it's Dr. Silvestro. I'm surprised you have time from your busy videotaping. He was just doing a video live. And he actually said he would be here.

And I was like, if you got he did a video about the government and protesting. And I don't know if you guys got a chance to see it was about an hour long and about 20 minutes into it. He said, I'll only be one more minute.

That's what it's like preaching with Dr. Silvestro. He's his view of one minute is just a little bit off. So he did say, you know, he was gonna wrap up in another minute about four or five times in the video.

So I really didn't believe he's gonna be here.

I told you I was not going to, to overrun your time here tonight. So I got done at like 759. And I don't know, 40 seconds or something. So enough time to advertise for you.

And we got Justin Pierce saying, Yep, saw him ranting. All right. So Anthony and I have have done a couple different things. When it comes to witnessing to Jehovah Witnesses. It used to be that you could get into good conversations wherever you find them.

And I have an opening line that I start with, I usually will ask them, why Jesus Christ had to be God. And anyone who understands them, and I'll get Nathan to give a little bit more of the background of them.

That's something they don't believe in. They don't believe Jesus was God. So their immediate thing is like, but wait, we don't believe he is God. I always be like, I know. But why did he have to be God?

And they don't have an answer to that. So that actually is my way of, because usually, if you see them on the street, I'm not going to get a lot of time to talk. So I want to go right for the most important thing, and get them to realize they don't have an answer so that I can give the answer.

So when they tell me they don't, they don't believe he was God, they don't understand. Then I explain that if Jesus Christ was not God, then he cannot pay the sins of other people. And if he doesn't pay the sins of other people, then we're all dead in our sins, and his death was meaningless.

And so I go right for the issue of his deity and salvation. Now, Anthony, you started doing something when you get into conversations with them, as a very good primer to get to get started. You ask a different question about the time.

Opening Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses

Yeah, so I do this with Jehovah's Witnesses and with Mormons. And so I'll ask them, do you believe that the entire Bible is true? And they'll say yes. I'll ask them, do you believe God is immutable, he's unchanging?

They'll say yes. And then I'll ask them one more thing about how much time do you have to talk? And so I get him nailed down for whatever amount of time it is. And then when I go into my line of questioning, and usually about four to five minutes in, they start saying, well, you know, we're about out of time right now, or whatever it is.

And I say, wait a minute, you just told me five minutes ago. So it's an interesting way to trap them. And then I'm able to say, look, it's obvious, you guys don't have the truth, you guys don't have the answers.

Because if you did, you'd be able to stand on the truth. So.

Ever since you said that to me, and it's just great, because I have noticed that they'll be like, oh, we have about an hour. And they're like, four or five minutes in, they want to go. And it's like, but you said you had an hour, like, what changed?

So Nathan, you're, you're probably the the most, the best expert on this on this panel right now. I drove witnesses, I don't think any of us, myself included, have studied it to the depth that you have.

I mean, I spent many years studying, but nowhere near definitely don't have the library. I mean, if you come in one day, and see your library missing and my shelves filled, you know where they went. All right.

So could you bring people up to speed on what it is Jehovah witnesses believe?

Sure. So we'll start with the deity of Christ. Jehovah's witnesses actually are what is considered, you know, theist. So they believe that Jehovah God is the Almighty God. And that Jesus Christ is a little God with a little G.

And they render it that way in their actual Bible in for John 1 .1. They say, in the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh and or the Word was with God and the Word was a God. And that's how they've rendered it since their very first translation.

So what they actually believe is that Jehovah God created Jesus first as his only direct creation. And through Jesus, Jehovah God created the rest of everything else. And they've changed their Bible in a few places to kind of accommodate that it's it's really nothing more than an Arian heresy.

We, you know, kind of read redone.

Well, backup backup, you're gonna have to explain Arian heresy for not everyone has studied church history like you my friend.

So Arianism teaches that there was a time Arius taught there was a time that the sun did not exist, that the sun was not. And so it's basically a denial of the eternality and deity of Christ. And it was fought in the in church history.

And the Council of Nicaea in 327 AD was, was decided that, you know, that Jesus was, was God.

Well, we kind of knew all along from Scripture.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they were having a basically they were having a church debate or dispute.

More I think what it was with that just tie into it. The politics of it, right? Arianist was your different emperors areas was kind of favored by an emperor. And that's why he had a voice. And then the council got together and said, Nope, heretic, throw him out of the land.

And it really is it's it they deny that Jesus is God. But there's some more things. You go into more of the specifics of some of the things they have. And there was a question earlier of are they Christian?

They'll say they are, but where would they differ from what we would hold to?

Yes, so they they use very similar Christian language. And and that's what a lot of the cults do. They'll use very similar Christian language to us. They are a works based religion, which basically means that they believe that they can earn their salvation.

They do not believe in the five solas such as the one being faith alone, through Christ alone. They believe that they can earn Jehovah's favor and their whole structure is set up in such a way to help them to earn Jehovah's favor.

But unfortunately, they are serving an organization secretly behind the scenes. That's what it's all set up for is to serve an organization. So everything they do is in service and dedication to a manmade organization.

So they believe that Jesus died for their sin, but they believe that there is more that is needed. They believe that he died as a ransom or in place of of of them, but that they have to and they use James chapter two, which a lot of the cults do they have, they have to you know, faith without works is dead.

So they believe that their works are earning favor with Jehovah. If you were to talk with my mom right now and ask her if she's done enough to, to get into the paradise earth, which is what they believe that they're going to inherit at the after the end of the world, she would say, well, I certainly hope so.

Which is a very sad position to be in because it is very much a treadmill of works for them to be on. And those works include going out in the field ministry, which is the door to door preaching. They're required to log a minimum of 10 hours a month.

Sometimes, you know, people will volunteer to do 40 hours a week and they'll become full time, full time, pioneers is what they call it. And they'll go out in the preaching work for for up to 40 hours a week.

So there's just a, you know, this whole structure set up, they give their money to the cult. They, a lot of times if a family member such as me, that's been disfellowshipped and disowned by my parents, they would sell the property if they die, or if they're about to die and leave it in the will to to the Jehovah's Witness organization instead of to me.

Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen with my family. I don't know. But I've heard of those type of stories happening where someone has been cut out of the family and they just sell off the property and give the proceeds to the organization.

So there's, you know, there's just a lot of stuff that they're following that is not necessary for salvation, because we know that salvation comes through what Christ did on the cross, where he took the punishment for our sins on our behalf.

He bore the wrath of God and because of that, we can be forgiven if we repent and put all our faith in him. That's not a message that they believe in.

Yeah, and some of the questions that came in, there was a question, do they believe in hell? No, they believe in annihilationism. So they don't believe in it. It's one of the key things they're going to focus on.

There was, let me see if I can find the comment from full belly bear had some great. Oh, yeah, here we go. Full belly bear said Anthony is always on time. His that is, but but he full belly bear did pick up.

He did pick up he says Anthony takes dress to match to another level. The mic cover matches his shirt. Okay, so yeah. He does dress he is more like a girl in that way. He's got a match. All right. So um, there though there was there was a question here as far as that just Pastor Justin had asked about.

He had said this is is their belief that God grants grace after all they could do. And that's actually Mormonism that would teach that. That's the second Nephi. Oh, I'm going from memory. I think it's 825 I think.

Yeah. What is it Daniel? What do you.

Say? I think is it 2523? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, I.

Forgot. So that's, that's what he was quoting. But that's that's actually a Mormonism. And so so Scott Moses asked this question. And I'll, you know, throw it out to either of you guys. He said as as you're explaining things, Nathan, he says, that sounds like cat that sounds Catholic.

Like, how is it different from Catholic?

Works-Based Religion Compared with Catholicism

Yeah, so Catholics have sacraments and various other things that they do. The Jehovah's Witnesses. I mean, it's really not a whole lot of difference other than just the traditions that they follow. Because if you think about it, the Catholic Church is a workspace religion that puts you immediately on a treadmill of works from the minute that you accept the sacrament of baptism, you have to maintain the grace that was infused to you at the acceptance of that sacrament.

And in order to maintain that you go through this treadmill of works where you basically commits, you know, do the sacraments and the penances and keep from doing venial sins and mortal sins. When you do venial sins, you go to a priest and confess when you commit a mortal sin, then you pay your sacraments and your penances.

So, you know, that's all in their tradition in the Jehovah's Witness tradition. You know, those type of things would be going out in the field ministry, attending regular meetings, they actually watch the attendance of the baptized people in in the organization and judge based off of the attendance, whether or not that person is strong in the Jehovah's Witness faith or becoming weak.

If there's any kind of sins, you go to the elders and you confess based on the sins and their judgment of how much repentance they deem that you have had, they may or may not continue with further disciplinary actions.

And and so yeah, so it's it's, it's got some similarities between the two, especially based that it's that's workspace religion.

Daniel, now do you get the answer to the question asked me why we're bringing him in? You know, he kind of makes you and I look like we don't know what we're talking about with.

Jehovah's Witnesses, huh? Yeah, and I apologize earlier, I was a little nervous when we got into the church history. I hadn't been on a video in a while.

He kind of he kind of knows a little bit more of than you, the three of us do. Now, Daniel, you you have, since you're working on this book on on witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses, which is really, I think how you and I first met, you sent me your book to, you know, to review.

I think it's probably still on my list. Sorry, I got through a couple chapters. Anthony, I'll tell you, I have this long list of books. I actually, I don't know if you can see it. There's a pile of books right there on the camera.

Here's the books that people have sent me asking for endorsements. So, but when witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses, what what do you think is effective ways to, to read, you know, to try to get them into conversation?

How to Start a Conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses

At least, personally, I think it's to let the Jehovah's Witness talk demonstrate that you're interested in what they have to say, because that's why they're there. They, they have their kind of scripted things that they want to talk about.

And so if you're, you're ready to talk to them, you might first want to let them say something, because then they might be willing to listen to what you have to say in return. And of course, you know, if you're prepared to deal with their, basically their main doctrines of the deity of Christ, and they have some other pet issues that they might try to introduce, such as the instrument of Jesus's execution, that it was not a cross, it didn't have a cross beam, it was just an upright pole, you know, and some various other things like that, the resurrection of Jesus being another one.

But, you know, first, you know, be courteous, of course, don't want, don't slam the door in their face, you know, act interested in some ways, like, don't be deceptive, but, like, maybe start off just showing that you're interested, don't just immediately tell them, you know, I'm, I've studied you a lot, get ready, you know, like, you know, ask, you know, maybe ask them some prodding questions, like, you know, show, yeah, that's interesting, I want to hear what you have to say.

And so after they say it, then you can ask them questions in return, that would be, you know, challenging questions based on their beliefs. And if I remember, James White, Dr. James White, where we might all be familiar with him, he gave the suggestion that, you know, you avoid using terms that the Jehovah's Witnesses might suspect that you are a disfellowshipped member which is someone who is basically excommunicated from their organization, the Watchtower.

So be careful how you use, like, some of the terms, but you could start with saying, can I, can I just summarize basically what I think you believe? And so they might even be flattered a little bit. So they'll say, sure.

And so you could give your best shot to explain what you think they believe and ask them if they agree, if that's what they if that's a good estimate, or good summary. So they might even be impressed with that.

And then, you know, so that you've expressed interest in their beliefs, and then that can start a conversation.

Well, I think that's actually really important, because you want to show that you're not misrepresenting them. I don't know about you guys, when I talk to someone, whether it be a Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, someone that doesn't agree with us, and they turn and tell me, well, you don't, you believe in three gods.

I mean, at that point, I'm pretty much like, okay, like, I have zero respect for anything you're gonna say about what I believe now, right? You've just, you've just kind of nixed that because you've just displayed that you don't understand what I actually believe.

And so taking the time to understand asking questions is a great thing. That's what I train people to do. Because you can actually control a whole conversation with questions. And you can direct where it goes.

And you get to play dumb. Now, I understand the three of you. Okay, maybe Anthony can play dumb, but the two of you, it won't come naturally, I comes naturally, I could play dumb. Well, Anthony, well, maybe, maybe he just is, I don't know.

But I mean, you know, he is wearing a red shirt with a red, you know, cover to his microphone, you know, good point there. But yeah, so why Brian nine asks this question, I think I think, Nathan, you kind of answered this a little bit.

But if Jehovah God, Jesus, a God, and Michael, who's the Holy Spirit? Now, I don't know if you if you got to this, but either Daniel, Nathan, what do you guys want? Who in when it comes to Jehovah Witnesses?

And I think you address Nathan, that they believe that, that God created Michael, the archangel, Michael created everything else. And then Michael became Jesus returns to being an angel. So the question, I guess is, who's the Holy Spirit?

The Jehovah's Witness View of the Holy Spirit

Yeah, so, um, I didn't get to that their, their theology is very broad. So it's going to take a lot of time to get to some of the various points. But if we read out of their New World Translation, Genesis chapter one, one in verse one, and two, it says in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Now the earth was formless and desolate and there was a darkness upon the surface of the watery deep and God's active force was moving about over the surface of the waters. So what they actually believe is, is that the Holy Spirit is not a is not a person.

It's not the third person of the Trinity. It is God's active force.

So it's kind of like the Jedi. Absolutely. That is what you should be proud. I actually got a reference to pop culture, but I understand Star Wars. So I.

Still can't figure out the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. So, you know,.

Oh, just that was that was painful. All right. Oh, he says this. I mean, it's back to what you said, Daniel, question him nothing but questions because they believe you're not qualified to read the Bible.

They love their Watchtower magazines. And and this is on you're going to see. One of the reasons I say they're a cult is one of the definitions of a cult is that you'll see in my book what they believe I define a cult.

And one of the ways the first is going to be that there's an authoritarianism, meaning that you have some person or organization that sets themselves up as the only group or person that can rightly interpret the Bible.

What that does is set them up as the authority. Now, here's the thing, whether it's the Catholic Church that says they're, you know, equal and authority to the Bible, the Watchtower, which is going to interpret the Bible for you.

Once you set up a group, that is the authority and only person or group that can interpret scripture.

By the way, that's what Andrew does. Every time he walks into a room, he sets himself up as the only one that can interpret. I haven't named Andrew's cult yet, but.

See, see full belly bear says you've lost it. See, I'm liking him more and more. But. But no, it is it's it's the thing once you have someone that that the Watchtower says they're the only ones who can interpret scripture.

Well, when you when that happens, what automatically happens with that is that they are now above the scripture. So the Roman Catholic Church, they set themselves above the scripture because you can't understand the scripture without the church.

Same with the Watchtower. Same with the you know, in the in Mormonism with the living prophet, you have that with all of them. And so I saw some other questions spin by so let me back up. Oh, here's a from full belly bear.

And we Anthony, can you read this one?

I think that there's a typo. There's a couple of typos in there. Because what it says is Andrew is known for fully understanding and not misrepresenting people.

For him to say, you know, but, you know,.

Actually, I do have a couple of questions, though, for you guys that that's so some finer points here. Hold on, hold on. Yeah. For.

Your benefit. I just saw this one. Scott Moses says, Andrew, your shirt matches your mic to stop picking on Anthony. But mine is black. You see, that's the normal cover, the color for these covers. See, Anthony went out and specifically got read so.

He could be different. See, no, I was trying to match up to the striving for eternity logo, which has red in it. There's no black in it. No. Thanks. Quick on my feet. Okay, so guys, I do have a couple of questions.

Number one is, what is there anything else significant about the history of Jehovah's Witnesses? Because they, it seems like in historical sources, that Jehovah's Witnesses are related to the Millerites.

Alright, so the Millerites, that broke apart, and he had the Adventist group come off of it. He had some other groups, apparently, what the Branch Davidians was that Waco, Texas, those guys. They came off of they claim they go back to the Millerites as well.

And then you have Jehovah's Witnesses who Charles Taze Russell, from what I understand, he was a wealthy individual. He worked for an Adventist newspaper. And then I don't know how he got wealthy. So I'm curious about that.

And then number two, in terms of him starting a watchtower, like, can you fill in any of these gaps for maybe some listeners who, who know some of the history? Because I find it fascinating to understand where they came from.

So that's my first question. I got one more after that.

Millerite Roots and the Rise of Charles Taze Russell

Okay, I address that one. Okay, so yeah, ultimately, Jehovah's Witnesses would be traced way back to the Millerite movement, as you mentioned, in the mid 1800s. That started with Baptist minister William Miller, and he started this process ruling of various interpretations of especially Daniel chapter eight, or 10, where William Miller, William Miller, interpreted Daniel 813.

And he used the day year principle to turn the 2300 days that were mentioned there to calendar years. So in other words, there would be 2300 years before God would or Christ God would sanct cleanse the sanctuary.

And so he tried to calculate that the 2300 years started in 457 BC with the first decree of Artaxerxes one to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. And so calculating that out 2300 years later calendar years, the sanctuary would be cleansed, and he understood the sanctuary being cleansed, not as the sanctuary in the temple, but as the sanctuary of the earth being cleansed at the second coming.

And originally, he calculated this out to 1843. So we realized this was coming up pretty soon. But various calculations, looking at Jewish calendars, he kind of fudged it and adjusted it over time to October 22 1844.

And so when that happened, the Great Disappointment is what it's called when thousands of Millerites gathered to be raptured up from the earth. And so what happens when some failed prophecy of the end of the world doesn't come to pass?

Well, you have lots of people who abandoned that original faith, there were some who tried to figure maybe there were different dates, maybe we missed the calculation. And others were more like, well, no, the calculation had to be correct.

So maybe we misinterpreted what the event was. And so some spiritualized the day. And so those who eventually determined that that date was not when Jesus would come to cleanse the sanctuary on earth, but that Jesus entered some sanctuary in heaven to start cleansing it by introducing by beginning what's called investigative judgment to see who was faithful to the law.