March 9, 2022 Show with Oscar Dunlap on “One Man’s Journey Out from the Hebrew Israelites Cult & Into the Christian Faith”

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from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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And now here's your host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth day of March 2022.

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I am so delighted to have as a first -time guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Oscar Dunlap, a former

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Hebrew Israelite of nine years now serving as a deacon at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, teaching in various capacities and leading weekly evangelistic and apologetic community outreaches.

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Today we are going to be addressing one man's journey out from the Hebrew Israelites cult and into the

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Christian faith. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Oscar Dunlap.

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Thank you, thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you for the opportunity and praise

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God for the opportunity. Amen. Well Oscar, if you could, it's interesting that we always have as a tradition here when we have a first -time guest that that guest gives us a summary of their testimony of how they came to faith in Christ.

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This time we're not asking for a summary, we're asking for a two -hour version because that's the theme of our show today, one man's journey out from the

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Hebrew Israelites cult and into the Christian faith. And if you could start with the home that you were raised in, what kind of religious atmosphere was present, if any, and the steps that led to you joining the

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Hebrew Israelites, and then, even more importantly, how the gospel of Jesus Christ got a hold of your heart and actually removed your heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh and transformed you into a new creation in Christ.

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Perhaps before we even do that, though, we will get from you a definition, an explanation of what the

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Hebrew Israelites cult is. Okay, so Hebrew Israelites today, at least a fraction or a type of Hebrew Israelite I was growing up as, is a group, many fractions of a group or a certain belief system in which their adherents believe that they are descendants of ancient

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Israelites, that they are the literal, physical descendants of those ancient scriptures.

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Typically, at least the group that I was a part of, they believed these to be African American, they wouldn't even like that term, they wouldn't even call themselves

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African American, but they would consider those to be African Americans, Native Americans, and Latinos as the physical and literal descendants of ancient

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Israelites. Primarily, they draw this from Deuteronomy 28, where you have certain curses that are laid out by the

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Lord in regards to the breaking of the covenant to his people, and if they would break that covenant, there are various curses that would come upon people.

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So they identify the history of Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, they identify their history, at least recent history, with that of the curses spoken of in that chapter in those verses.

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And it culminates in verse 68, where you see that God said he would send them into Egypt again with ships, and that is to them, they understand that to be the transatlantic slave trade.

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So that's a short synopsis of what they believe. Now you said you are in one faction or sect of Hebrew Israelites.

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How many different groups exist, and how hostile, if at all, are they toward each other?

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So there's various groups, various sects, too many to count. So there is one

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West Hebrew Israelites who originate in New York City in the early 1900s, 1920s.

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Oh really, that long? In the 1930s, yeah, really, really long ago. They come from a group called the

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Commandment Keepers, and the guy that leads the Commandment Keepers, and he starts one West Hebrew Israelites, and his name is

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Abba Bivix. And he starts this group, it starts off as basically a perversion of Judaism, essentially, where there is no faith in Christ in the very beginning.

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And later on, as the theology develops, they bring Christ on as Savior.

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They start to acknowledge him as Savior. But through that time, after that time, there's various splits in this, in the one

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West camp, one West group, and now there's too many groups to count. But that isn't the only kind of Hebrew Israelites, but that's,

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I would say, primarily what you see today in our culture. You see the guys in corner preaching, you see

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YouTube videos, primarily Black Hebrew Israelites that you see are coming from the one West camp.

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Now, would you categorize this group or all of these sects together as Black supremacist groups, or do they just have a unique understanding of their origins as a people and as an ethnic group?

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And are whites allowed to join any of these groups? I mean, there are, in history, there have been white people who have joined at least rally beside the

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Black Panthers and other organizations that are predominantly have

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Black membership. But if you could explain that. Yeah, so the particular, the one

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West Hebrew Israelite, it's absolutely, 100%, a Black supremacist and a

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Black liberation theology, theological movement. And so there are some groups, as far as the faction that I was a part of, which were called

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Gathering of Christ Church of GeoCC, they would allow members of other races who weren't

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Black, Latino, and Native American, but those members could have no teaching authority.

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They could have no authority in the church. They couldn't be elders or deacons. They could not teach anything of that sort. Now, the other one

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West groups that are out there, many of them will not allow any membership or anyone to join who is not

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Black, Latino, or Native American. And specifically, that doesn't just, that's not just simply in their current membership, but sociologically, they would look at, some of the groups would say that people outside of that group,

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Black, Latino, Native American, could not even be saved. While my group, the group I was a part of, they would say, there continues to be a hierarchy of the races, even after this life going into the kingdom, going into everlasting life, that the

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Black, Latinos, and Native Americans would be the ruling class of the kingdom of God when it came.

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Yeah, it's interesting how much of the rhetoric of groups like this, if you left out the colors being favored, the skin colors being favored as being superior over others, you could think you're hearing somebody reading a

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Ku Klux Klan manual or a neo -Nazi manual, and yet you're reading something from a Black supremacist group.

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And it's also interesting how Elijah Muhammad had a fondness for George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the

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American Nazi Party, and actually had him speak at one and perhaps even two of his large rallies.

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Utterly amazing, isn't it? Whoa, I didn't even know that. Oh yeah. But you're absolutely right.

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Their theology, or at least their practice and conduct, is almost interchangeable.

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It's almost interchangeable. I was on the Cultish podcast, and prior to me being on there, there was a lady who was a part of an extremist group who had almost the exact same theology, except they looked at the people of the

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Bible, at least the descendants of the Israelites, as people from Europe. So almost the exact same theology, but they said, oh, these white people from all these different countries are the chosen people of God, are the children of Israel, literally and physically today.

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So almost interchangeable theology, just simply different races. Yeah, going back to the

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Elijah Muhammad of the Nation of Islam, the reason why he had such a fondness for George Lincoln, Rockwell, and vice versa, is that they were very strong, outspoken, and vociferous proponents of segregation.

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Now, obviously, Elijah Muhammad wanted to have a segregated area of this nation that was in no way inferior to the white areas, but he nonetheless believed that the races should not mix just as white races believe.

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But in fact, I had an encounter years ago in Manhattan.

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I'm not sure which sect of the Hebrew Israelites it was, but I remember finding it interesting that the man speaking had a very large bodyguard standing with him who was dressed like an

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Egyptian pharaoh, at least the way you see them dressed in movies, like the

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Ten Commandments. And I thought that was odd that somebody claiming to be a

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Hebrew Israelite would have the costume on of an Egyptian pharaoh. Made no sense to me.

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But he, the main speaker at this event, which was an outdoor event. They had a platform set up right near Penn Station.

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He told me, because I approached him and walked very close to where he was standing with the microphone and speaking, and I asked him as a white man if I have any possibility of being saved from damnation, in his opinion.

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He said, no. And I asked him, why have you been arguing with me about theology for about 20 minutes?

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What does it matter if you convince me even of what you believe if I have no hope?

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And his answer was very strange. He said, because you look up to me. It's like, oh, that's news to me.

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But anyway, so tell us about your upbringing and the household in which you were raised, and what kind of religious or non -religious atmosphere existed.

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So coming up, so I'll just give you a little bit of backstory. I was raised along with my siblings by a single mother in a city about 25 minutes outside of Detroit, Michigan.

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My mother, she did eventually marry my stepfather, but functionally speaking, it operated as a single -parent home.

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Did not have a prominent male figure in my home, you know, growing up.

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So I grew up in a, I would say, nominally Christian home in which we regularly attended church from the time

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I was about six or seven. And although we attended church, I couldn't say that the word of God or the gospel truly permeated our lives.

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Looking back, I would conclude that our Christian, I mean, we were Christian by proclamation, but our lives were not truly rooted in Scripture in terms of faith and practice.

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We'd go to church on Sunday and the rest of the week, there'd be very little talk of Scripture or very, you know, no praying, nothing like that throughout the week.

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We'd show up on Sunday and simply participate and then go back to our lives the rest of the week.

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So there was some appreciation for Scripture, some kind of reverence in a sense, but that it wasn't greatly manifested in our day -to -day lives or prayer or anything like that.

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I think praying was restricted to praying over food, traveling to Mercy's, and we'd pray before we went to bed.

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That was essentially the entirety of our prayer life. There was no,

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I would say there was no saving faith, no earning this to know God or to be known by God.

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There was no new birth. And even from a young age, myself, I had some intrigue with the

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Scripture just because I seen that people interacted with it differently than every other book.

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It was distinct in some way. I just didn't know what that way was necessarily. I was a somewhat troubled kid as well growing up, and I was reprimanded a lot by my mother, who, you know, was right to do so.

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And my understanding of Scripture, as I grew up and I started to understand more Scripture, it helped me out in that area, just as far as conduct and behavior.

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But as far as really interacting with the text or really believing the text to be

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God's message, there wasn't any of that in my home growing up. Well, how did you come to discover the cult known as the

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Hebrew Israelites? And let us know if there was any other false religion that you attached yourselves to before that.

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No, so there was nothing before that. So what happened was, I think that I started to develop some racial resentment.

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I started to develop a very skewed view of my history and my history just as an individual and also

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Black history. And it started to project just in my views of this country.

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Another thing, I got really like into conspiracy theories and things like that. And so my worldview was starting to be shaped by anger and fear and things like that as I grew up into my teenage years.

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So that's a bit of the backstory of how it comes to when I turned 18. I have an uncle of mine who gives me a

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DVD. He gives me a DVD and on this DVD that he received at like an

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African American Heritage Festival or something of that sort in Detroit, on this DVD there is a

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Hebrew Israelite teaching. There's two guys sitting side by side on a video recording and they are teaching this

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Hebrew Israelite interpretation of Scripture, Hebrew Israelite doctrine.

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And so because my worldview had already been skewed, Scripture had never had a root or foundation in my life.

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I knew it was there, I knew it was important, but I hadn't accepted it as the

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Word of God, how I do now as a Christian would. So for that reason, when this false teaching came,

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I did not have the adequate theology or apologetics in order to defend what

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I held on to loosely. So when it came, rather than testing it by Scripture, I accepted it because I had itchy ears and they were saying some things that I wanted to hear, honestly.

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And so I accepted it as the doctrine of truth.

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Now part of the reason why that is, is I had never heard the word apologetics growing up.

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I had no idea what it meant to defend the faith. I grew up in a church, I went to Sunday school and all of those things, but I had no understanding of how you would approach someone attacking

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Scripture or attacking a proper hermeneutics or anything like that. So when this came,

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I was defenseless. I already had a skewed worldview. I didn't have a great understanding of Scripture and I had no way of protecting the views

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I held on to loosely. So when it came, I seen what I wanted in it and also

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I seen that these guys, like many cults do, had a great memorization of Scripture.

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Not a proper interpretation, which I didn't know at the time, but the way that they handled the Bible, the way that they knew the

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Bible impressed me. And they knew the Bible much better than the Christians that I knew.

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But most of the Christians I knew, I would say, were novel Christians. So when I seen their understanding, or what seemingly was their understanding of the text, but the memorization of the text, the interaction with the text, these guys held to their faith, which is a false faith, better than many

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Christians that I knew held to their Christian faith. And so just based off of conviction, it looked much, much, much more impressive and much more convincing that these guys know what they believe and they live it.

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And so that was really appealing to me, appealing to my flesh, because like I said, growing up, not having a father, having all these questions about my identity just as an individual, and then also my history as a young black man, and the culture that's just thriving off of this racial tension and things of that nature, which even started earlier on when

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I was younger, earlier in the 2010s, I was primed basically by my history, by my culture, by a lack of father in the home.

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I was primed for this false theology. So when it came, I accepted it.

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Now, let's understand a little better some of the theological, doctrinal, and practical aspects that are unique to the

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Hebrew Israelites cult that you were a part of. What do they understand to be the nature of Jesus Christ?

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Do they actually believe in the Trinity? Do they believe in the hypostatic union? Do they believe that Jesus is fully

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God and fully man, etc.? And all of the other pillars about Christ, such as his conception in the womb of a virgin and his sinless life, his death on Calvary and bodily resurrection.

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Sure, sure. So they would certainly not hold to the

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Trinity or the virgin conception whatsoever. So I'll go through a few of these views that they hold to, which are heretical in nature.

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They hold to a type of henotheism, which is like... One supreme

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God amongst other gods. Exactly, right? God the Father is the supreme God. Christ is a

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God, but he is not the eternal God. They would say Christ is a created being.

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They would think he's the first of all created beings, similar to a Jehovah Witness or even somewhat to a Mormon Christology.

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They would reject the Trinity entirely. They would say that Joseph was the physical father of Christ.

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Wow. He was, in fact, yes. And Mary was, in fact, not a virgin. That she was not only the lawful wife of Joseph, but that they also consummated, and Christ was a result of that consummation of marriage.

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It is very, as I said before, very ethnocentric, very racist, ecclesiastically, also sociologically as far as the hierarchy and the belief even after this life.

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They have a works righteousness -based system. One's justification before God, while it might be initiated by the death of Christ, it was ultimately dependent upon one's own merit.

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You had to live according to the law. I lived many years of failing in that pursuit, seeking to receive justification, seeking to achieve righteousness by way of the works of the law, not simply,

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I would say, ceremonial law as well as civil law and things of that nature.

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Obviously, much of the ceremonial law is not possible because we live in a Jewish state, but ceremonial law is a holy cult.

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Don't eat fish, don't touch that, don't wear those kind of clothes, things of that nature. Now, here's a thought that makes me recoil and cringe.

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How about circumcision, especially if you enter into this group as an adult? Right. They would say that you should be circumcised, certainly.

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They would push the need of it, but they wouldn't administer any circumcision or anything like that.

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And it would be something that they knew if you didn't tell them, but they would certainly say you need to be circumcised.

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Oh, wow. And going back to Christ himself, do they believe,

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I'm sorry if I missed this, do they believe that he physically rose from the dead? They do believe he physically rose from the dead, but you mentioned earlier the hypostatic union.

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They would not hold to a hypostatic union in the sense that we would because they wouldn't adhere to the realization of Christ being

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Almighty God, right? John 1, 1, they would reject that. They would say the word

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Elohim in the Old Testament and the word God in the New Testament can refer to God the

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Father, but it also can refer to those lower deities, as I said before. So they would say he probably raised from the dead, but they would deny the fact that he was the one true

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God. Now, do they insist that he was, as far as his skin color, black?

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Is that like a... Certainly. That is primary. That is primary.

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I would say even more so than any of the doctrines that I stated earlier. Primary, what they're going to teach primarily, right, is the necessity of us understanding that he was a black man.

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So just to give a little clarity on that, they would say that black people, as far as not all black people, not

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African people, right, they would make a distinction between those who are considered African American and Africans.

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They would say that those are two different tribes, two different families. So they would identify African Americans with Shem, right, from the line of Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

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They would say that blacks, in particular, African Americans, are from the line of Judah.

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And then there's some others, like Jamaicans, they would say they're from the line of Benjamin. Haitians, they would say that they're from the line of Levi.

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Puerto Ricans, they would say they're Ephraim. Native Americans are Gad. And they split up all of these tribes into different countries.

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Brazilians are Asher, on and on and on, right, North and South America, as far as African Americans, also

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Southern American countries, even Aborigines, even some Hawaiians. They say Hawaiians are

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Natali. So they, Hawaiians and Samoans, you know, Polynesian people, they would break down the tribe.

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They have a 12 tribes chart where they would say, these people are from this tribe.

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But as far as the ethnicity and the tribe of Christ, they would say he's from, obviously, you know, conscription is from the tribe of Judah.

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And therefore, they would identify him as a black man. And they would go to Revelation chapter 3 to really point to that in the sense where it says his feet were as brass or burned in a furnace.

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And so that means he's a black man. He's dark -skinned, black man with woolly hair. Right. Of course, the scripture also says that the woolly hair was white.

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So that's interesting. And of course, I would also say that any lunatic who believes that Jesus Christ was identical to a stereotypical

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Swede or Norwegian, I think that's wrong as well. But of course, there are white supremacists who believe that's an essential aspect of their ridiculous and damnable beliefs.

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Our email address, by the way, folks, if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, such as you are in the

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Hebrew Israelites and you're starting to question your own ideology and that which has been forced upon you.

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You perhaps are considering leaving. And obviously, if you're still in the group, you don't want to just as of yet identify who you are.

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I can understand you being anonymous or remaining anonymous. Or you have a close family member, loved one in that group.

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I can understand you remaining anonymous. But if it's general, if it is a general question, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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And I'm not sure if you answered this before, but is there any hostile rivalry between the different sects of Hebrew Israelites?

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Absolutely. Very hostile. There is differences in doctrine. And not only differences in doctrine, but differences on views in the sense of some groups would say, hey, we're the original group.

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We're the original group. As I said, there's all of these different breaks and fractions. And so many groups are claiming that they're original.

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Now, most of these breaks happen within our lifetime.

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They're recent. And so, I mean, the history doesn't go back that far. And so there's much dispute.

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Kind of the mecca of this is New York City. And so many of the groups, they either come from New York City or surrounding areas,

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Philadelphia in particular, that I came from. And various different issues with theology that they disagree on.

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And also very little positive interaction between these groups.

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Some of them will look at the other ones as heretical. Some of them will look at the other ones as severed from any hope of salvation and things of that nature.

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So very hostile. So years ago, part of the one thing that happened when

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Pastor James White actually debated the leader of my organization, most of the comments and the remarks were insults against Elder McCall, who was the leader of the organization

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I was a part of, by other Hebrew Israelites. So there's a great disdain amongst these different groups for each other.

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And yeah, that's interesting. And do they incorporate into their religious life, of course,

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I'm assuming with different definitions as to why they do them, but do they incorporate things like the

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Lord's Supper, communion, baptism, things of that nature?

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Yes. So they would baptize, they would practice communion, but they also, according to Leviticus 23, would celebrate all of the holy days.

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So Passover, even in the Feast of Dedication, they would consider—this is another thing

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I need to mention—they also consider the books of the Apocrypha, and the book of Enoch, and the book of Jasher to all be

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God -breathed parts of Scripture. And so any holy days that they find in any of these various extra -biblical works, they would consider those to be holy days that are obligations to them to keep and to observe.

29:27

That's interesting, because the Jews have never identified the

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Apocrypha, or what the Catholics call deuterocanonical books, they've never acknowledged them as a part of the

29:41

God -breathed canon. Right, certainly. And so the present -day

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Jews, those who are in Israel and the surrounding areas, they would deny that those people are actual descendants of Israel.

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They would say that they are impostors, that they are in the synagogue of Satan, and that they themselves are the true

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Jews. And there are, though, apparently, black

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Jewish groups that practice just as Orthodox Jews do, and believe that they trace their ancestry back thousands of years.

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Whether they're correct or not, I don't know, but they are not really any different other than the predominance of the skin color that I'm aware of than the cult known as the

30:34

Hebrew Israelites. Yeah, certainly, certainly. They're aware of some of those groups, but they would differ in most of those

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Jewish communities who are of some type of African descent. They don't acknowledge Christ as Savior.

30:51

Hebrew Israelites wouldn't acknowledge Christ as Savior at all, but obviously their Christology would be heretical as well.

30:58

Right. We have to go to our first break. And again, if you have a question for Oscar about the

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Hebrew Israelites cult, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

31:13

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question is of a personal and private matter.

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

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Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

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today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to a free pastor's luncheon that will be conducted by my dear friend and sponsor,

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco, at the Historical Bible Society. This is the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio spring pastor's luncheon, and all men in ministry leadership are welcome, whether you're an elder, a deacon, a parachurch organization leader, whatever leadership you hold as a man in the body of Christ, you are welcome.

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It's free of charge, and it will be held, God willing, on Thursday, April 7th, 11 a .m.

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to 2 p .m. at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is just about 20 minutes from Carlisle, where I am sitting right now.

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Not only will Dan be giving a superb lecture that I've heard many times on how he received the

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Bible into the English language, but he will also have on display a portion of his very rare collection of Bibles and Christian books of historical significance on display, including a first edition 1611

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King James Bible, a first edition Fox's Book of Martyrs, which is illustrated, and a first – and a page out of the

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Gutenberg Bible, the very first book ever printed. If you'd like to attend this free pastor's luncheon on Thursday, April 7th in Loisville, Pennsylvania, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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– chrisarnson at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. We are now back with our guest.

39:29

I am truly fascinated by what we are discussing today. Our guest is

39:34

Oscar Dunlap, former Hebrew Israelite of nine years, now serving as a deacon at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, a church that is no stranger to the audience of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio since I have interviewed both

39:49

Pastor Jeff Durbin and Dr. James R. White on this program, and even Zach Morgan quite a while ago was on the program.

39:57

We are discussing today one man's journey out from the Hebrew Israelites cult and into the Christian faith.

40:03

And if you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com – chrisarnson at gmail .com.

40:09

Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

40:16

USA. And we do have a question from Andrew in Brooklyn, New York.

40:26

And Andrew says, how did the black Hebrew Israelites view the verse -by -verse teaching of Scripture?

40:34

The black Hebrew Israelites and other groups like them seem to be centered around proof texting.

40:39

Godspeed, Andrew from Brooklyn, New York. And you might as well include in your answer, is the black

40:46

Hebrew Israelites a proper term for them, or is that something that folks from the outside call them?

40:53

Yes. So just to touch on the first, just to touch on what you said real quick before I get into their answer, they wouldn't call themselves black

41:02

Hebrew Israelites since the Hebrew Israelites are black or brown people, and so they would just call themselves Hebrew Israelites typically from the outside in.

41:09

They're identified as black Hebrew Israelites for their position in holding blacks or African Americans to be the direct descendants of ancient

41:21

Israelites. So they would call themselves Hebrew Israelites, typically people on the outside call them black Hebrew Israelites, which kind of identifies their ethnocentric ideology.

41:31

To answer his question as far as verse -by -verse didactic teaching of Scripture, how they would go through a verse -by -verse exposition.

41:40

So they wouldn't deny a verse -by -verse understanding of Scripture, but they would go to Isaiah 28, which is,

41:49

Isaiah 28 and 11, which they would say, this is the way that you understand the

41:55

Bible. And so the verse, some of the verse, it says, Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

42:04

And they would say, that's the way for you to understand the Bible. So literally, their ideology of Scripture is to proof -text.

42:11

Now, that's not to say, obviously, as Christians, we understand parallel verses and the necessity of backing up our understanding and our theology with additional verses, right, to get as many sources or specific doctrines as possible.

42:27

But what they do is they proof -text, and they take a verse here and a verse there and a historical context, a theological context, they strip it of the context and make the verse say what they desire it to say.

42:44

So I mentioned earlier, Revelation chapter 3, his feet will be like brass as if it burned in a fire.

42:51

That means a dark -skinned man, right? It's separated from any other kind of context that's implied there, or, you know, the very typological book pointing to many different signs and many different types of shadows throughout the

43:10

Old Testament. Well, they'll disregard that, and they'll look at the verse in a way that, really, it's eisegesis.

43:18

They'll read their view into the text, into every verse. So they'll go through a few verses at a time, but it won't be with a proper hermeneutics, if that answers your question.

43:29

Thank you, Andrew, from Brooklyn, New York. And I know that you have corresponded with Iron Trump and Zion Radio in the past, but I can't remember if you actually asked a question for a guest before.

43:40

If this is your first time asking a question, you have won a new, free,

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New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and compliments of CVBBS .com,

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which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will ship that Bible out to you if you already, if you haven't already won one.

44:02

Thank you so much for contributing to the program. We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, who asks,

44:13

I have heard that at least one of Hebrew -Israelite sects actually believes the insane teaching that King James, who authorized the

44:26

King James Bible, was a black man. Was your group one of those that has this teaching?

44:33

Certainly, yes. They absolutely were. Not only King James, but various people throughout history who are known not to be of African American descent, even though they would say of ancient

44:46

Jewish descent, they would think more so turning back, but various people, yes, including

44:51

King James himself, that King James was a black man, certainly. Now, when you heard that as a

44:57

Hebrew -Israelite, did you at all scratch your head and say, wait a minute, let me go to the library right now, or let me just go on the internet and do a little research about King James?

45:10

I mean, that seems, I mean, I don't want to be cruel here, but it sounds laughably ridiculous.

45:17

Right. Certainly. Certainly. It is, especially considering the fact that this isn't, you know, it's not like it's very, it's not like it's very long ago.

45:26

Like any writing that we have on King James, they're not from that long ago. So it's not one of those things that you can mask in a lot of years and say, oh, this has been taught, or the truth has been masked over all these years.

45:39

That's what, you know, not even 500 years ago. So yes, but at the time,

45:45

I mean, well, just from my viewpoint at the time when I was part of this organization, when you have the presupposition that the

45:55

Bible is about you, and therefore everything that's happening in the world is in some way about deceiving you and hiding the truth of your ethnicity and your nationality as far as descendants of ancient

46:11

Israel, when that's your presupposition, everything becomes a conspiracy. Quite literally, everything is a conspiracy.

46:19

So they'll take brute, hard facts, and they will look at them as lies because they're coming from the presupposition that the world has come together, the world has come together and unified in this coup to hide the truth of the identity of the

46:37

Israelites. So when you do that, anything is possible. You can believe anything. Yeah, and we have an anonymous listener who asks, is one of the reasons, in your opinion, why black men are drawn to such groups as the

46:56

Hebrew Israelites and the Nation of Islam due to the fact that the black church at large is well known to be very matriarchal?

47:07

Not only do they ordain women very often, but they have congregations that are predominantly women.

47:16

Does this strength factor of the machismo of male leadership attract folks such as yourself into groups such as those

47:28

I mentioned? Certainly. Yes, I could agree with that. At least, in the very least in part,

47:35

I would say the lack of, and not just in the black community, but this is obviously something that is more prominent, more of a prominent reality in the black community.

47:45

There was some time ago that I was working on a ministry where I would be basically attacking fatherlessness in our community, which would be going into juvenile facilities and ministering to young boys, most of these young boys coming up in homes without a father.

48:05

So in whatever the community is, you see that there's a direct correlation between almost every societal ill, almost every societal ill, and the lack of fathership, the prominent male mentorship in the home, especially for young boys.

48:22

And so because a lot of African American communities are suffering from that reality,

48:28

I think it contributes in large part to this ideology, like black people are a nation of Islam.

48:42

It makes them more appealing because of that masculine dynamic. And then along with that, as far as a lack of or a feminization of, in large part, of the church in America, I think that also becomes a deterrent for a lot of young men, especially from the community, the type of communities

49:03

I am from, it becomes a deterrent because so much of the culture is about,

49:12

I wouldn't go as far as saying emasculating, but it's about, it's not offering those things that is necessary for young men to grow into a role of proper masculinity.

49:28

And so I would say that's certainly a dynamic that I think plays a part in what makes this type of thing appealing.

49:35

That reminds me, if you go on YouTube, you can actually see and hear a sermon by Louis Farrakhan, the current leader of the

49:45

Nation of Islam, who was invited to a black Baptist church,

49:52

I believe in Manhattan, but I could be wrong about the city. I was, first of all, amazed that,

49:59

I don't know why I was amazed in this day and age, but I was amazed that they would allow Farrakhan to preach from their pulpit there and that the pastor gave him glowing accolades both before and after inviting him up to the pulpit to speak.

50:15

In fact, after he spoke, he told Farrakhan that he had an open door for him any time he wanted to preach there.

50:23

But it was interesting how, if you didn't know who Farrakhan was, or his association with a false religion like the

50:34

Nation of Islam, even though he did not include the gospel in his message, he was actually right on the money regarding the lamentable fact of the feminizing of much of the black church and the pro -homosexual stance that many in the black church, especially in leadership, have, although I understand that in the congregations that's not necessarily true at all.

51:06

But it was quite amazing hearing this, and sadly, Farrakhan is a very gifted orator.

51:14

But it was just mind -boggling watching and hearing this. Now, have you ever heard of one of these mainline, predominantly

51:24

African -American churches inviting somebody from the Hebrew Israelites to speak from the pulpit?

51:31

Yes, there have been entire congregations that have been converted. There have been pastors and elders of churches that have been converted.

51:42

Absolutely, that has happened. And just to speak a little bit more to what you're saying, when you have weak theology from the pulpit, the people are susceptible to these types of attacks on the fundamental doctrines of Christianity.

52:01

And so if your pastor is weak in his theology, the people are typically weak in their theology. So when these things come, typically they have a grave effect on those people.

52:11

So yes, entire congregations, pastors, elders, deacons, of all sorts, have been converted to this false theology.

52:19

What a tragedy. But of course, those folks were not regenerate to begin with, but it's still a tragedy.

52:28

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. And please start writing your questions for our guest,

52:36

Oscar Dumlap, and send them to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

52:44

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52:52

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So please do that, and we're going to be right back after these messages. Don't go away.

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There's a lot more to come. Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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01:11:06

Also, folks, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ -honoring, theologically sound local church, no matter where you live on the planet

01:11:16

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01:11:54

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01:12:03

I am so fascinated by this interview with Oscar Dunlap, former

01:12:08

Hebrew Israelite of nine years, now serving as a deacon at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, teaching in various capacities of leading weekly evangelistic and apologetic community outreaches.

01:12:22

And we're discussing one man's journey out from the Hebrew Israelites cult into the Christian faith.

01:12:27

Again, if you want to send in a question, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:12:33

And we have Renata from Sao Paulo, Brazil, who says here in Brazil, the

01:12:42

Hebrew Israelites are present in big cities as Sao Paulo and Salvador in small number, but we can notice them sometimes preaching at the street, but they are always close to the followers of the

01:12:59

Rastafari, the Jamaican cult of Jah, and the Rastafari use hemp marijuana as a kind of ritual.

01:13:08

Many times they are all together, and it seemed to me that everyone is smoking together, but I'm not sure.

01:13:16

Do the Hebrew Israelites in the USA use hemp? Here is one of the links from the group in Brazil, and she offers a website.

01:13:24

Well, hemp wouldn't be the intoxicating version of cannabis, but can you answer our guest's question in Brazil?

01:13:34

Yes, yes. Some of the groups would partake, and others wouldn't.

01:13:40

That's something that wouldn't be... There's no universal position on that. Some groups would.

01:13:47

Some groups even look for biblical texts or extra -biblical texts, as I mentioned, the

01:13:52

Apartheid book and things like that. As a basis for their use in other groups. In particular, my group, they would not allow that.

01:14:01

Do they allow any kind of recreational stimulants, as they call them? Do they allow alcoholic consumption and so on?

01:14:09

Yeah, they would allow alcohol consumption. Obviously, they would say, in due measure, they would say it's a sin to be drunk.

01:14:18

It's not a sin to partake, so... Yeah, just like reformed Christians. Right, right.

01:14:24

And Christians of other theological persuasions as well. Well, thank you,

01:14:30

Renata. It's been a pleasure hearing from you from time to time recently as a new listener, or at least as a new questioner.

01:14:37

Thanks a lot for contributing your excellent question to the program today, and keep spreading the word in Brazil about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:14:47

We have a question from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, how did your family respond to you being in the

01:14:56

Hebrew Israelites? And did you lure any of them into that group? And are any in your family still in that group?

01:15:05

Yes, so I came into Hebrew Israelites, thought, with an uncle of mine and with my older brother, one of my older brothers.

01:15:16

And so when this happened, we all kind of partook of it.

01:15:22

We all really identified with it. Me, myself, I was a lot more involved than they were as far as being a member of an actual organization.

01:15:36

Neither of those guys, my brother or my uncle, actually became members of any organization. They followed the teachings of the same organization, in large part,

01:15:44

Gavin's Christ Church. But neither of them were active members. So I was a member, not only a member, but I was teaching.

01:15:52

I was being raised up within the organization to teach and to lead. They did not partake.

01:15:58

So I didn't bring them along. We all got into it together. But any additional, there were no additional members in my family that were

01:16:05

Hebrew Israelites. And how they interacted with it or how they responded to it, as I said, they were not, my family was not very biblically sound to begin with.

01:16:17

And so they seen it as kind of extreme, but they didn't have the understanding in scripture,

01:16:25

I would say, to adequately refute my claims. We have

01:16:31

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who said that your listener in Brazil just said that she saw some kind of fellowship activities going on between the

01:16:42

Hebrew Israelites and the Rastafarians. Is this something that actually would equate to an ecumenism of some sort?

01:16:53

Right. There would be some, I am aware of some doctrines that cross over.

01:16:59

I believe the Rastafarians believe that they're named after the king of, the emperor of Ethiopia.

01:17:07

I don't remember. Haile Selassie. Haile Selassie. Exactly. And so I know that they find some identification in being natural

01:17:18

Israelites. There's some speculation about Solomon and the queen, the queen mentioned in the book of King, or is it

01:17:30

Chronicles? One of the King of Chronicles. And they find some identification as far as saying Solomon had children with her and that the line of Israel made it to Ethiopia that way.

01:17:39

So I know there's some type of crossover there, which would probably make sense in their interaction with one another.

01:17:47

But that's probably as far as I would go with that. Okay. So you've got to tell us about how,

01:17:56

I mean, I know that your former leader of your particular sect or congregation of the

01:18:03

Hebrew Israelites debated James White. Was that the first time you became aware of him?

01:18:08

And how did an actual communication start? Yes, that was the first time

01:18:13

I, that was the first time I knew who James White was. And so from that time, so let me just give you a little bit of commentary on that event.

01:18:25

When this happened, first of all, the communities, Hebrew Israelite communities are very isolated. They don't have a whole lot of interaction with people outside, right?

01:18:34

As many cults do, they isolate you from the people around you. And so there was some interaction between Rakhal and meaningful interaction between Rakhal and James White in the first day of the conversation.

01:18:47

And then they had more of like a formal debate over a video of, you know, like a

01:18:55

Skype or something of that nature. So Rakhal would have some interaction with people of other faiths.

01:19:01

They would have, they had a radio show and they would talk to people of other faiths. And oftentimes it would seem as if Rakhal did well, like he presented his position well, but that's from my side who didn't know anything other than that.

01:19:15

So when he had the interaction with James White, that was the first time that I've seen him being challenged in a way that by somebody with quite frankly, a superior understanding of scripture and biblical history.

01:19:30

Which goes to anybody that's against him in a debate. Exactly, exactly.

01:19:35

And so it really just opened my eyes. I was like, whoa, this is not your average guest here.

01:19:41

This is not your average. We were used to Christians not being, you know, being very inept and kind of blessed of a theological grounding or foundation oftentimes.

01:19:56

And so I don't think that Rakhal knew what to expect. I don't think he knew what James White was. So I don't think he knew what to expect.

01:20:03

So at the time, what happened in that debate is it really planted seeds of doubt in that false gospel.

01:20:10

But I didn't come to faith until three years later. But those seeds started to grow and it started to fester and it just started kind of pulling and tugging at my soul for many, many years as I tried to work through this until God eventually saved me three years later.

01:20:27

So then, so I watched the debate. This debate took place six years ago. I watched the debate when it happened.

01:20:33

I seen the fallout within my community because of the debate, right? There was a big fallout because quite frankly, he got embarrassed, right?

01:20:42

On many levels, he got exposed, which cult leaders don't normally, they don't normally expose themselves to the possibility of being vulnerable in a sense like that.

01:20:54

And so it really showed a lack of understanding in scripture, a lack of thoroughness for his preparation for the conversation.

01:21:02

So when that happened, I watched it. Like I said, I didn't know who James White was.

01:21:07

I just knew that this dude knows what he's talking about, but I didn't fully agree with him either. I watched it and I was like, hmm, that's interesting.

01:21:15

But I still think what I believe is true. It wasn't three years later until I seen otherwise.

01:21:21

And so now after becoming Christian three years later,

01:21:26

I went back and watched the debate again. I had not watched the debate that whole time. I watched it three years later as I'm struggling through all of this, but I'm still an active member in GSEC.

01:21:37

But I'm just going through all of this for these three years. I watched it again after I became a Christian and my eyes just, my eyes were open and I seen it all for what it was.

01:21:46

I understood that it was true. And so now I'm starting to look into James White. I'm watching his sermons and his lectures and things like that.

01:21:53

And it opens the door to all of these great Reformed pastors and theologians.

01:21:58

And I'm just consuming all of this stuff. And then it opened the door to the Puritans and to the Reformers. And I'm getting my hands on all of these old books and reading all of this stuff.

01:22:07

And my worldview is now being built on a foundation that largely started from that debate and Pastor James' presentation of the true biblical gospel and the true

01:22:18

Christ. And so all of that happens and I'm just growing now and I'm feeding all of this.

01:22:23

After I became a Christian, this is like in the first, I would say, six months I became a Christian, which

01:22:29

I wasn't a part of the church. From that time, at that time, I hadn't stepped foot in the church.

01:22:35

I stepped foot in the church one time in the last nine years. One time in the last nine years.

01:22:40

So I wasn't even in the church. I was just listening to sermons hours and hours out of the day. I was reading my

01:22:46

Bible. I was reading all of these books and I was just being fed in that way knowing that, okay, I'm gonna have to find a church.

01:22:52

I'm gonna have to find a church. But I was very hesitant. I was very hesitant in that regard because I knew that I had just been under a false leader, a false teacher for so long that I was very hesitant of putting myself and my family under the authority of someone again.

01:23:11

So when I watched the debate, the James White debate with Raqqa, when I became a

01:23:16

Christian, I seen that he was a pastor of a polygyny church.

01:23:22

I didn't even know. I still didn't know what a polygyny meant when I said it at the time. And I seen, oh, he's pastoring a church in Arizona.

01:23:30

And it kind of just went to the back of my head. I didn't think about it. I, years prior,

01:23:36

I was a part of the organization GSEC in Arizona. That's where I became a part of that organization.

01:23:42

Remember, I was currently living in Michigan when I moved back to Michigan. We had been there for three years.

01:23:49

We had already planned to move back to Arizona and a large part of the reason why me and my wife decided to move back is because these people who we were a part of this organization along with, we wanted to go back and share the gospel.

01:24:02

We wanted to go back, these people who we were so close with them, we wanted to go back and minister to them, share the true gospel with them, the true

01:24:08

Christ. And I feel like this is where I, I became a Hebrew Israelite in Michigan, but this is where I really became a member and I really started to work on behalf of this false gospel.

01:24:19

So I felt like I needed to come back here as far as being a Christian and really give that gospel message to the people who

01:24:26

I served with all these years. And now, a month away from moving back to Michigan, I look up James White again.

01:24:33

At this time, I'm aware of Jeff Durbin and all of these guys and I'm like, I looked up the church again and the church was in Mesa, Arizona, literally 10 minutes away from where I already planned to move.

01:24:45

It was an apartment complex, 10 minutes away from the church and I had no idea that that was the proximity.

01:24:51

I had no idea, it was in the back of my mind, I didn't even remember. So I'm moving back to Arizona now, 10 minutes away from this church and I'm just like, wow, providence of God, it's on full display, it was amazing.

01:25:00

So we go to this church, at the time my wife was asking me, I told my wife,

01:25:06

I said, I think we're reformed and she was like, what does that mean? And I was like, I don't know yet. I said,

01:25:16

I'm trying to figure it out, when I do, I'll let you know. So we bought a 1689 confession, I'm going through all of these sermon series on the doctrines of grace.

01:25:25

The last sermon series I go through is Pastor Jeff Durbin and Pastor White and as I'm working through these doctrines,

01:25:32

I'm listening to it. So my first sermon in Apologia was

01:25:37

Pastor James answering the reputations of the doctrines of grace. Praise God. Yeah, that was early, mid 2020.

01:25:46

So yeah, that's a little bit of that story, which is just quite amazing, quite amazing. Amen. In fact, when you were just mentioning that you didn't know what reformed was, even though you thought you might be reformed, it reminded me years ago in the 1990s, early 1990s before Harold Camping totally took family radio off the rails into a really extreme cultic view of theology of salvation and all that, a hatred of the church at large.

01:26:28

They would regularly air sermons by local pastors and including sermons that I submitted to them by James White.

01:26:39

And when I was having a debate, when I was organizing a debate with James, one of my friends who worked for the

01:26:48

Suffolk County, Long Island affiliate of family radio was interviewing James.

01:26:53

He did not know what reformed meant at the time. He was an Arminian Christian, which is odd to me that he worked for family radio that professed to be reformed.

01:27:03

But it was hilarious. When he was interviewing James, he said to him, so you say you're a reformed

01:27:12

Baptist. What are you now? In other words, he thought that reform meant like a reformed alcoholic who is no longer an alcoholic.

01:27:22

But in fact, I think he even repeated that question the second time in the interview, which made me laugh even harder.

01:27:31

Let's see, we have an anonymous listener who says I'm remaining anonymous because I'm a

01:27:36

Republican and don't want to offend my fellow Republicans over this question as some might be.

01:27:43

But there has been a man who has been president at many of the

01:27:48

Donald Trump rallies who has been nicknamed Michael the Black Man.

01:27:54

He apparently has a real name, which is Maurice Woodside. And he also adopted nicknames like Michael Simonet and Mikael Israel.

01:28:06

He used to be a member of a group called the Nation of Yahweh. Is that somehow connected with the

01:28:14

Hebrew Israelites? And do you know whether or not he is still a part of this group, if at all, to your knowledge?

01:28:23

So I don't know if him, if he is necessarily part of the group, but the Nation of Yahweh is a, it is a

01:28:32

Hebrew -Israelite group that was founded in the late 1970s. This is the group that was headed by a guy named

01:28:40

Yahweh Ben -Yahweh, who identified as Christ himself, right?

01:28:46

Wow. Yeah, they moved from, I believe it's from Chicago.

01:28:54

I believe they moved from Chicago to Israel in the 80s.

01:29:01

They took a big community of maybe like 500 and they moved to Israel. And now there's a community of about 5 ,000 of them in Israel today.

01:29:08

I don't know if that guy is part of it or not. I'm not sure who that guy is, but I do know that that group is a

01:29:13

Hebrew -Israelite group that is currently in Israel now. I believe it's

01:29:18

Demoya Israel. Yeah, he actually, I know who this person, at least

01:29:23

I believe I know who he's talking about. He holds up signs at the Trump rallies, usually right behind Donald Trump in clear view of the cameras, and say, blacks for Trump.

01:29:36

Yeah. So it's, well, Michael, if you're listening, let us know if you're still in the Hebrew -Israelites or any affiliated sect.

01:29:46

We have a frequent questioner in the

01:29:52

Iron Sherpa Zion radio audience. We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

01:30:00

Greetings, brothers. How do the Hebrew -Israelites react to natural Israelites?

01:30:06

Do they treat them as brothers? Certainly not. They would deny that they are actual

01:30:12

Israelites. They would reject, they would reject them entirely. They do not interact with them in any meaningful fashion.

01:30:21

And if they do, if they see them on the street or anything like that, which a lot of Hebrew -Israelites, they proselytize the street.

01:30:28

They typically are very, they interact with them in a very rude manner.

01:30:35

So no, there's no good interaction with them whatsoever. But how do they -

01:30:41

They don't consider them. Go ahead, I'm sorry. You can finish that. I was gonna say, they don't consider them to be

01:30:47

Israelites. They think that they're liars. Now, how do they interact with people outside of their group generally?

01:30:58

Well, there is a man whose name escapes me right now. Maybe you remember.

01:31:06

But he hosted the show called

01:31:11

The Masked Singer. And he converted to the

01:31:17

Nation of Islam or at least closely followed them. And was at one point terminated, it was said in the news, because of anti -white racist and anti -Jewish racist comments that he had said being a member of the

01:31:34

Nation of Islam. But apparently, I think, that he may have been reinstalled perhaps after an apology of some sort.

01:31:42

I don't know if you know who I'm speaking of as far as the host. His name has slipped my mind, as I said.

01:31:52

But he, other than those comments he was accused of making, which

01:31:58

I think he even admitted to, seems to have, at least in public and on television, a cordial relationship with white people and people outside of not only his group, but of the black community.

01:32:13

How did you guys interact with other people outside? Right, that would really, that would depend in large part on where the interactions took place.

01:32:24

So if they're profitizing on the street, it's not a very good interaction most times. My group was one of the most milder, they're one of the milder groups as far as their position, the position that they took against people of other nationalities, ethnicities.

01:32:42

But most of the groups are very hostile, very disrespectful. Now, a lot of these guys, nine to five jobs, they're working and they have to function in society.

01:32:53

And so in that regard, they will be a lot more, a lot milder in their approach and the things that they say.

01:33:01

But if you catch them online, a lot of times online, internet people are, they're able to show the true colors.

01:33:09

And so that's where you'll see a lot of hostility, a lot of verbiage that is quite disrespectful.

01:33:17

So it really would depend on where you catch them. But generally speaking, the interaction is not going to be something that's positive.

01:33:26

And a listener just sent in a clarification for us. Nick Cannon is the host that I was speaking of.

01:33:34

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Okay, I do know who you're talking about. Yes. And apparently... Hebrew -Israelite.

01:33:40

He was a Hebrew -Israelite? Hebrew -Israelite. Is he still? Yes, currently.

01:33:46

I thought it was the Nation of Islam. I guess I was wrong. Well, it seems though, at least according to our listener, he has returned as the host.

01:33:55

So that's interesting. Well, we're going to go to our final break right now.

01:34:02

It's going to be much more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question for our guest, please send it in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:34:11

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

01:34:16

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:34:22

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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That's liyfc .org. Welcome back,

01:41:51

Oscar. Tell us about what you believe are the proper ways to reach out to folks in the

01:42:04

Hebrew Israelites. We both know and believe that it is our sovereign

01:42:10

God who saves whom he chooses to save. We plant and water seeds, but it is

01:42:16

God alone who gives the increase. But at the same time, Christians can be guilty of saying and doing foolish things even heretical things unconsciously when they are seeking to evangelize individuals.

01:42:32

And there are certain ways, even though there is only one gospel, there are certain ways that may be more wise in starting a dialogue with someone on the street corner, on the bus or train or plane or even if they're sitting at your dining room table for Thanksgiving because they are a member of your family or a friend of the family.

01:42:57

Tell us some about those do's and don'ts when reaching out to a Hebrew Israelite. Yeah, so I think whenever you're trying to evangelize or trying to get the gospel to people of other faiths, there are many detours and pitfalls to avoid.

01:43:18

And I would say the reason you want to avoid them is because they don't lead to something that is essential or something that is ultimately fundamental to the

01:43:27

Christian faith. So, for example, there are some, I totally bypass their identifying as Hebrew Israelite because,

01:43:38

I mean, a descendant of ancient Israelite. The reason why

01:43:43

I bypass that is because ultimately, regardless of who anyone is, it's insignificant in the conversation of sociology.

01:43:53

Your salvation is not at all linked to your nationality or ethnicity.

01:43:58

And therefore I refuse to have the conversation. I don't go down that track of trying to refute their identity as a natural

01:44:10

Israelite. I don't find it to be meaningful. I would much rather deal with the way of salvation, right?

01:44:21

Salvation by faith alone, through grace alone, by faith alone. I would much rather deal with the deity of Christ, who is the object of our faith and the means by which we're saved, his perfect life and death, and, you know, the ministry and mediation of Christ.

01:44:36

I would much rather focus on the sufficiency of Scripture, those things that are fundamental to the Christian faith, the triune

01:44:42

God, the sufficiency of Scripture, and the means of salvation. Those things which are fundamental to the

01:44:50

Christian faith and fundamental for salvation, for our salvation. I would stick to those points.

01:44:56

And I would typically start with the deity of Christ, because that's a point where there will be some agreeance on.

01:45:02

They don't entirely agree, but at least it's a starting point that you can, you know, a foundation that you can build upon.

01:45:10

You can go to John 1 and show them the deity of Christ. You can go to Colossians 1, 15 and 17 and show them that he created all things.

01:45:17

You can go to the Old Testament and Isaiah's prophecy in them and show that this is El Gabor, this is the mighty

01:45:23

God, the father of everlasting. It's so many different ways you can show them the deity of Christ and show them that God revealed his triune nature.

01:45:31

He's in types and shadows in the Old Testament. He made hints to it. But in the New Testament, he revealed it fully.

01:45:37

I would stick and start with those things that are fundamental to the Christian faith and avoid those pitfalls of issues that even within the

01:45:47

Christian faith there may be some differences as far as non -essential things. I wouldn't focus on those things.

01:45:53

And there's a lot of them, but I would avoid those things at all costs. Yeah, and evangelicals very often will make those errors when they're trying to evangelize people of other groups far different from the

01:46:08

Hebrew Israelites. They'll introduce their unique understanding of eschatology as a dominant thing when they're evangelizing them.

01:46:16

Or they may be picking on something that is unessential or far less essential than other things.

01:46:24

Like, you know, there are people who will seek to win somebody out of Roman Catholicism by talking about the vestments and the collars and things like that, which have no place of importance when you're talking about the eternal soul of someone.

01:46:40

So tell us about your own relationship, if any, now with your former brothers and sisters in the

01:46:53

Hebrew Israelites. Do you have any ongoing friendships even though you have left them and is your safety in jeopardy, etc?

01:47:02

Right. There isn't much, quite honestly. Much of them have, you know, ostracized me and spoken ill of me as I come out with the testimony of God saving me and revealing to me the true

01:47:18

Christ. So, you know, as most cults, the way that they function is it's a society that thrives on control.

01:47:28

So when someone leaves that control and they dispute the fundamental beliefs of that cult or that society or that organization, typically they are ostracized.

01:47:40

And that's similar to what's happened to me. As far as safety, there's no concern for my safety.

01:47:47

But just in the Hebrew Israelite community, I am pretty well known now just because of the various interviews and things that I've done, whether it's been my face has been shown enough times where it's pretty well known and they look at me as an apostate.

01:48:06

So as far as the people that I know personally, there's a few maybe that I've talked to on a somewhat regular basis or not even regular,

01:48:16

I would say, you know, here and there. But as far as those relationships that were really strong before, they were founded on a lie.

01:48:25

And therefore, when the lie was exposed, the relationships in large part went along with it. Now, what is the role of women in the

01:48:36

Hebrew Israelites? We were speaking before about why this group and others like it that are black supremacists who have strong views and practices that reveal a strong male headship, an exclusively male headship, which many of those things are obviously things that conservative and reformed

01:49:06

Christians agree with, not necessarily the way that they unfold and reveal themselves in these different groups.

01:49:14

But how is a woman ever attracted to a group like this? And what is her role there?

01:49:23

So that varies within the different camps, but in large part, many of the groups practice homogeneity.

01:49:33

Many of the groups, the men take on multiple lives in standing with the

01:49:38

Old Testament, either that's perfectly valid and there's no issue with that. I'm totally disregarding the multiple lives in the

01:49:45

New Testament as far as requirements of an elder being a one -woman man or any type of leadership in the church, things of that nature, of a more fuller revelation that we have from the apostles and from Christ, Christ showing us that marriage is always meant to be between one man and one woman.

01:50:05

Obviously, Ephesians chapter five, Paul is teaching us that marriage is actually a revelation of Christ.

01:50:12

It's a mystery that's revealing the glory of Christ in his church. And obviously, Christ has one church and not multiple churches.

01:50:19

And so we see that in the New Testament, that's totally disregarded. Many of them have multiple wives.

01:50:26

I wouldn't even say wives, they have multiple women practice polygamous relationships. Now, the group

01:50:31

I was part of, they did not practice polygamy, but the role of women in the group, I would say in large part,

01:50:39

I would say it could agree with much of our perspective now as far as a woman's role.

01:50:47

They would emphasize the need of a woman, obeying her husband and teaching her children and reading a

01:50:55

Bible and praying and things of that nature. The problem with it is because it's a lie, because it's a false gospel.

01:51:02

You do not have the presence of the Spirit actually giving anyone the power to overcome their sin.

01:51:08

So that which the Christian church has as the inward principle of the Spirit ruling and sanctifying us as a means of interacting with one another and growing in holiness, cults don't have the

01:51:22

Spirit. And therefore they must operate according to a legalistic worldview that's trying to kind of trying to emulate the work of the

01:51:34

Spirit. But because there's no real, there's no Spirit, there's no real overcoming sin, there's no freedom or expiation of sin because the blood of Christ is not really being applied.

01:51:45

And so what you have there is a very legalistic and fair sayable community that kind of eats away at itself.

01:51:54

So the role of women is the same in that sense where there is going to be a very hard line, hard fast rule of what women should and should not do.

01:52:05

And if they don't do those things, it's not like they would be reprimanded openly. But there'll be a large amount of just abuse in general will be very antagonistic against anyone who is not living in life of the letter of the law regarding certain things without the presence of the

01:52:22

Spirit. Now, would most of the female converts into Hebrew Israelite, into the

01:52:28

Hebrew Israelite cult, would they be through a boyfriend or husband or are women independently of men converting to this group in any most significant number?

01:52:43

Most often. There's no way to give a percentage, but I would say most, most often they are coming along with a boyfriend or a husband, things of that nature.

01:52:56

Because again, the thing that's very appealing to the men is masculine, almost militant type of disposition.

01:53:08

And so I don't think naturally it's most appealing to women. Now, there's a whole, there's a whole another world out there, which is known as kind of, it's called the conscious community.

01:53:20

It's a black conscious community where it's a thing, it's similar to the new age, but it's very

01:53:29

Afrocentric. Now, women are, I think women, black women flock to that much more in much higher numbers because the feminine aspect of it is very emphasized.

01:53:44

But as far as black Hebrew Israelites, femininity is not emphasized in their everyday doctrines and things like that.

01:53:51

So typically, I would say, even my wife, my wife came into the Hebrew Israelite movement for me.

01:53:58

And that's what it is most of the time. What is their view of the afterlife in regard to a reward for those who are faithful Hebrew Israelites and also in regard to those who are outside of this group or perhaps even militantly opposed to it?

01:54:17

Right. So some groups, again, they don't believe in salvation of anybody other than them.

01:54:24

And they also, some groups also believe in reincarnation, that you are reincarnated into people of your same nation repeatedly.

01:54:34

The group I was a part of, their sociological standpoint, a view was

01:54:40

Christ would be reigning. He would come to reign on the earth and he would reign eternally.

01:54:46

And again, they would be the ruling class. They would be the kings and the priests. And the other nations who did believe, they would be basically servants of the ruling

01:54:59

Israelite class. So you could make it, but essentially they would say, we were slaves and now you will be slaves.

01:55:09

That's essentially their viewpoint. Now, it is interesting that there are people in the nation of Islam who, although would have a very conservative viewpoint on things such as gender roles and recognizing that homosexuality is unnatural and sinful.

01:55:35

And we could go on and on about the things that even someone in the nation of Islam might have in common with a conservative evangelical

01:55:44

Christian. But it's ironic and strange how you will sometimes see in the media, people like Farrakhan who applauded the election of Barack Obama and so on, who is very much in favor of homosexual rights and feminism.

01:56:05

And you have women in politics who are claiming to be strict, chronically faithful Muslims.

01:56:15

And you say to yourself, these women wouldn't survive in a country dominated by Sharia law.

01:56:23

They would be considered loud mouths and going beyond their liberty in their gender.

01:56:31

So how do the folks from the Hebrew Israelite, how are they, if at all, involved in politics?

01:56:41

Yeah, that's funny you mentioned that because that is absolute.

01:56:47

It's an absolute reality where you see them applauding certain things that are inconsistent with their worldview.

01:56:56

I would say as far as Hebrew Israelites go, there will be, again, many inconsistencies as well.

01:57:03

Now, when it comes to Barack Obama, again, because they're so conspiratorial in nature, they denied that it was, they denied him as being a good thing, right?

01:57:18

They thought that he was put in place to appease Black people. And again, one more thing to add to their deception.

01:57:28

They didn't think that he had any significant role or that he would do anything for Black people. And they felt vindicated in that.

01:57:35

But when it comes to homosexuality and things, they're totally against all of those things. What's been interesting to me is how they've interacted with the whole

01:57:44

Black Lives Matter and that movement and those kinds of movements. And in large part, these people are saying a lot of the same things that Hebrew Israelites have said for years.

01:57:55

But again, they're inherently untrustworthy. And so, I mean, they're inherently untrusted.

01:58:02

And so when they see these types of movements, typically they are contrary to them because they just don't trust. They think everything is a conspiracy against them.

01:58:10

So they don't really trust any of those movements and they wouldn't align with any of those movements either. Well, we are out of time.

01:58:16

And I want to mention the Apology at Church website where our guest serves as a deacon in Mesa, Arizona.

01:58:25

Apologyatchurch .com, Apologyatchurch .com. Any other contact information you care to share? Yes, I am also a co -host of a podcast,

01:58:37

Two Witnesses podcast. You can find us on YouTube and also on Facebook. Two Witnesses podcast.

01:58:44

We just recently did a debate, actually, out of Apologia where we debated, me and another brother,

01:58:52

Daniel Castantino, we debated two Mormon friends that we have. The debate is actually dropping today at five o 'clock on Apology Studios YouTube page.

01:59:02

So tune into that if you have any interest in those types of things. Pastor James White, Dr. James White, did moderate the debate.

01:59:09

We had a blast. It was awesome for him to be there. It was awesome to partake and to interact with these two

01:59:15

Mormon friends that we have. So the lead up to that debate was three two -hour conversations that we had with these guys.

01:59:22

Those conversations are filmed. And again, they are on Two Witnesses podcast. So please check that out if you're into that kind of thing.

01:59:29

The debate is dropping today at Apology Studios. So if anyone is interested in UNS everything, we would love for you to go check it out.

01:59:36

And I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.

01:59:43

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater