George Bryson then Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three-three-four-one. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Schedule Changes, Textual Criticism, and Technical Problems

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning quick program note week from today. We might be here at this time. We might be here at the afternoon time it all sort of pens. I'm Flying standby starting Monday.

So you never know. I don't expect any issues. I don't expect that. We won't be here at 10 o 'clock on on. What. Oh. Oh, oh, oh, well, yes. Yes, I'm going to use the laptop today, of course, I'm gonna use laptop that's why I'm sitting in front laptop today.

Anyway, I'm flying standby and you know how that is these days. Well, maybe don't flying standby is an adventure. It is it is you normally get where you're going eventually, but sometimes you have to go some odd routes and so we'll see and.

Because of that I don't want to start this next Tuesday. So My right now my plan is next Thursday To start the series that I've mentioned before on on textual criticism and I'd like to start it Thursday.

We'll do a little discussion about textual critical backgrounds some of you for example may have seen the Well, I'm gonna be posting a blog article that actually makes reference to it but a certain person in the blogosphere Who Has that changed his textual critical perspective to one where the Byzantine text type?

Becomes the canonical text of the church because of its length of use. Of course, I would argue that if you're going to make that kind of of a move You actually should stop using Greek at all and use Latin Vulgate.

But anyway What is the the Byzantine text? What is the Alexandrian text? You know, how does history and Why is it absolutely necessary beyond all question to know something about church history to know something about What has taken place over the past?

20 centuries. To to have some idea of how the Bible's been transmitted to us. What about the Latin Vulgate? What about the tremendous impact that has had upon? The development of theology for example over time, these are some of the issues we'll be looking at and if you if you dare put in Alexandrian text into Google or something like that.

You'll end up with all these wide-eyed wild-eyed Satanic Conspiracy theory things running about the internet about how the Alexandrian text denies the deity of Christ and this that and the other thing and let's face a lot of folks just don't know much about that and so we'll we'll discuss some of that and Then if we can get all that done in one program, which we may or may not be able to do.

Got some shorts going on here. Maybe my baby. It's my computer. Don't know but No, not it is a computer. Is that better? Nope. We really need a new one of these things. Oh, that's no hello, now I sound completely different and I sound terrible and Having okay.

How about now? This is not good. There's just that. Okay, that's called a short. Okay, because I just moved a little bit right there and then I could touch it again. And now I sound about 14 times louder than I should and distorting in my headphones.

So I don't know what what happened there, but Rich is falling apart near the room. He's shaking his head going. I don't know what I did. I touched a button and now everything has blown up. What it has nothing to do with that?

This is the microphone. Let's see this red thing here. This is the microphone and it's sounding really odd and strange. Thank you. Anyway, that's much better. Okay, sort of whatever. Yes, I Remember the pastor at the largest Southern Baptist Church.

I was a member of who was absolutely certain don't touch it. You'll break it. That's demons inhabit inanimate objects and the soundboard was proof. And I remember one time I was stuck there alone I was running sound and We had a short up in the way up in the I miss a huge church so and and I'm afraid of heights there's no way he'd even get up into the spot above the where the Choir was where the amplifiers were and the low-end Was low into the high end of the high-end amplifiers were shorting out.

So I'd have to crank, you know, everything up to make anything even semi listenable and I knew at any moment they were gonna pop in and You know, you know what happened if all of a sudden half your amps.

Half your only run half your amps and another 50 pop in all at once. I mean the sound is incredible and it happened and it wasn't any fun. But anyway, that's that's neither here to there. The second program we're gonna do thank you for your patience and listening to what's going on here.

The second program will be the discussion of the Nestle Island. Well We may need to do like like one program On the UBS text and and one program on Nestle Island or something along those lines. We'll start The first Tuesday in February looking at the textual critical Sigla in.

Start with the UBS text because I recognize that if you've had any seminary Greek Bible College Greek It's more probable that you have the UBS third or fourth Greek text than it is you have the Nestle Island text now personally I would Recommend the Nestle Island text for any type of meaningful textual critical studies of variants and things like that.

I'd have both of them because the UBS text when it when it mentions the variant is going to give you more information than that's the Nestle Island text is but The Nestle Island text is going to cover a lot more variants.

And so we're gonna start that a week from Thursday for those of you who have been clamoring for that and I know that. Some of you're going. Oh great. I'm not gonna get to listen to the buying line for a while.

Well. You know, I suppose what I could do now that I think about it. And what I will try to remember to do though, it's going to be difficult to remember this. I will try to post a high quality scan of a couple of pages of both texts.

So that if you do not possess it then you can download. Maybe as a PDF those PDF or JPEG or something those Pages so you can follow along yourself so that you know. If you want to order the text now, it doesn't necessarily have to come in.

I'll use those pages for my example pages something along those lines. We'll see if we can't do something like that and make that a little bit more accessible to everybody. It might be the best way to do it.

So that's what will be coming up. I have been very negligent in getting back to George Bryson. If you are wondering if I'm going to be playing any of that outrageous outlandish Wide-eyed Drooling attack on Reformed Baptists by John Modine.

The answer is no. That was one of the hardest things I've ever had to listen to simply because there was absolutely positively Nothing of substance to it. This man is one most ignorant men have ever heard in my life.

He couldn't have backed up Anything he said for for Loewner money. That's why he'll never call a program like this because he knows That I did that he can't back up what he's saying it was just it was just you know, I I'm surprised anyone managed to go all the way through it because After about halfway through you're you've just thrown your hands up near this this man does not have a clue what he's saying.

He doesn't care. Just just absolutely amazing. Just it's a shame that kind of stuff ends up on sermon audio calm. It'd be nice if there was some core kind of a standard there That you'd have you know some level of truthfulness to what's being said.

But anybody who knows anything about the subject knows that that man doesn't care About knowing anything about the subject and therefore so I'm not not even gonna sully the airways playing that one. If you haven't heard it and you heard the John Modine stuff before this is three times worse.

So that'll give you some indication of just how utterly utterly worthless the whole thing is so no not going there. In fact, I guess the one function of John Modine is he makes George Bryson sound good and fair and So, I guess that's that gives you some sort of a spectrum of what's going on there, so let's see if we can make the Make the the sound work here.

I may hit this button and everything may explode. Rich Rich's got a seat belt on and we'll see we see what happens here. So let's George Bryson for those of you who did not hear this before George Bryson is one of the Leading figures in the Calvary Chapel movement.

He does a lot of church planting. He goes to Russia does stuff like that. He is also their self-appointed Calvinist killer and We have been listening to a presentation he made back sometime. I would estimate about November of 2003 was before He and I did Bible answer van broadcast together and you can hear that that CD.

We make it available through Alvin and Megan ministries if you would like to listen what happened Didn't go quite the way. I think George Bryson expected it to but anyway, I've debated him formally. I don't remember what year that was over in LA on who who's in control of salvation God or ma 'am and So we have already played the first 37 minutes of this presentation.

We've heard some pretty incredible stuff in it, but we continue on. Yeah, whatever he wished with regard to every man. These are all inclusive terms all. Notice the terms again. Whatever he wished With regard to every man all are not created on equal terms.

But some are equal terms some are preordained to eternal life others to eternal damnation and accordingly. As each has been created for one or other of those ends. We say that he has been predestined to life or to death.

Did you get it? Now a lot of people said that is so deep. I said that is right on the surface. Anybody can understand that what he says here is that from all eternity God decided to create some people To send them to hell and he created some other people to send them to heaven.

Now, you'll notice.

The Decree of God, Human Responsibility, and the Meaning of Romans 8:28

Again, just as a reminder. It's been quite some time. Mr. Mr. Bryson. What he just said for example, some people say it's so deep. Well, actually it's right on the surface. Well, actually it's the deep part that George is missing what he does is he focuses solely upon the statements that are in regards to the Final outcome of everything that God does and what he does he excludes the concept that you can have in The decree of God any activity within time that is relevant factor for many people.

They say look if it's all if it's a fixed game if the end is known and the end is a part of God's decree. Then what happens in time is irrelevant? And that's the problem is that they have a very shallow view of God's decree.

God's decree is so deep and So rich that it includes the actions in time and it attaches. In fact, it is the foundation for attaching Tremendous value and meaning to what takes place in time. You see if you really have to when you think about this people people go.

Well, you know if you don't have libertarian fruit, what about Satan? What about what about the enemy of our soul and how he is described and people being enslaved to sin and things like that. How do you deal with those things?

What are their purposes in this world? Starting to get Distorting and stuff again. Not sure. It's just sort of coming up and going down. Not sure what's going on with that. Anyways if if God's decree did not include a means by which our actions in our Activity in time is Taken into consideration and is made important as in is invested with importance.

Then why couldn't Satan just take us over? Why couldn't Satan just? Rule over us why couldn't powers and and authorities outside of ourselves rule over our lives. God has chosen not to allow that to happen.

God has his own purposes and the idea that well if the end is known then the means of getting there is irrelevant. That makes no sense. Again the open theist gets around this by saying God doesn't know what the ends are.

The Arminian is the inconsistent one because I said God does know what the ends are. But the means are all libertarian and what we're saying is God has ordained the ends and the means and he has invested tremendous importance in the means and since we can't see what the future is and Since we don't see God's decree and we don't we don't actively determine in any way God's decree or anything like that then We have to allow the Bible to define what is truly important What is not.

And God has defined that what takes place in time is indeed? Vitally Important and he judges on the basis that and that's the only thing that we can have access to we do not have access to The eternal decree of God we cannot live on the basis of the eternal decree of God.

We have God's revealed will as to what is right and was honest and what is just and these are the things that we are to do and It's based upon which we are to pray. I mean, you know, I I mentioned on my blog This this this past week spending some time on the voice of the martyrs the VOM website and and reading about I was just reading about I should have brought the magazine in with Mia a young woman who was martyred in in China a little while back beaten by the police and you.

You think about what these these people are going through you think about what our brothers and sisters are going through in especially in Islamic countries where people are attacked in there their throat their throats are slit because of what the Quran says and and You you look at those things and and you go.

How could God allow these things to happen. And the open theist says well God God has to allow them to happen to honor libertarian free will you see and God God didn't know that these things gonna happen when he created this world.

But he wants to do he wants to make the best to come out of out of these tragedies. And I have a really really really hard time. Worshiping a god like that. I really do and that's that that just doesn't make any sense to me.

But then you have the Armenian who who says well God knew this was gonna happen. But but he didn't really have a have a decree or a plan. That seems to be George Bryson's position. Even though he doesn't want to actually face up to the ramifications of his position.

He wants to say that the God had exhaustive knowledge of future events. But he didn't decree what those events were going to be and so he's the he's the person he is the God who looks through The the looking-glass he looks through the glass and he sees what's what's going on and he sees you know the the events in time and He's just an observer and I'm not sure why he's supposed to be glorified for what takes place in in time.

But he's just the observer and he takes in passive knowledge and and he just happens to come out in the end. Somehow that he wins, but you can't really glorify him for having done that because well, he didn't decree it.

But then you can have the decree of God that attaches the most Incredible purpose to all of suffering in human existence and especially amongst those who are called to suffer for the name of Jesus Christ and That's that decree then provides an irrefutable Foundation for asserting that well, hmm.

This sounds scriptural. God Causes all things to work. For the good for them who are the call for them. Who love God the elect. My goodness, maybe it's a biblical thing. Yeah, it's a biblical thing. So you see George just all George does is is what a lot of these folks do is they separate out?

One element of the truth and Then by separating it from the other elements of biblical truth to which the Bible itself connects it they try to make a parody of it to try to make a caricature of it and Attack it rather than seeing it in harmony with the rest of the Revelation.

Yes, God has ordained the ends and in a in a bland bald statement when God created. Yes, there were those who at creation. To you, you know to use Hank Hanegraaff's favorite term from from John Calvin.

Completely imbalanced use of it, but his favorite term doomed from the womb. But if you're not an open theist you have to say the same thing. You have to say the same thing. When you were born did God know when you were going to die when you were born did not God know what your decisions were?

Gonna be unless you're an open theist. You're saying the exact same thing now the question goes into okay. And what else are you saying about his purposes? Does his purpose include the sin of man. Does his purpose include judgment?

Does his purpose include the demonstration of? His righteousness his holiness his mercy his love etc. Etc. That's what you have to get into and by divorcing all that George Bryson is again presenting a straw man.

I have lost my.

Connection. I'm playing sounds and you're not hearing sounds. They don't go to hell for any other reason. No sinner goes to hell. Because he's a sinner. No sinner goes to hell because he refuses Christ.

No sinner goes to hell according to reformed theology because of unbelief.

Again completely in error. That's that's untrue. Notice is a perfect illustration. I didn't remember that this was exactly what came after it, but Completely wrong. That's taking again The eternal final view of the purposes and ignoring the means by which you get there.

It makes the decree relevant only to the end and not to the means by which this is accomplished. That shows the glory of God. That shows the power of God. That shows the holiness of God. That shows the mercy of God.

That shows The grace of God. You cut all that out and to call that in a an explanation of reformed theology is Is a gross caricature it's a gross straw man it makes No sense whatsoever, but that's all that these folks can do.

They have nothing else. They got nothing they got no place else to go. They can't go into the text with us because they know what the result is. George Bryson knows exactly what the result of that is.

I've got a blog article. I wanted to have it up this morning. I'm almost almost done with it. Showing the exact same issue with Paul Owen and his new well, it's just it's just a Roman Catholic reading of John 6 and it's a sacramentalism and how he tries to get around the clear evidence of God's decree and salvation in John chapter 6 it's the same thing he doesn't hardly even touch the text.

It's a hop-skip-jump methodology throw in a little church history this that you know all through a traditional lens. And and that way you get around John 6 they can't go to the text and they cannot accurate represent what we're saying because when they.

Do then their objections fall apart. All of those things are consequences. They're the result. We'll get into this in a moment, but even the fall of Adam the first sin of the first man according to Calvin.

No, I mean, let me stop that. No, she said they're the result. No, they're the means if you can't if you can't even accurately understand the difference between the means that goes to the end and Then the result if you can't see the relationship there then.

Why? It's not that it's overly difficult to do. It's that you don't want to. This is this is how he keeps this is this is why? He said earlier. I can't get somebody back out of Calvinism, but if you give me a chance to poison their mind.

That's not the terminology he used that's what he meant. If you give me a chance to poison their mind I can keep him from going in but once they're in I can't get him Back out, you know why he can't get him back out because he's not accurate accurately representing the position.

Once they're in they know what the position is and his arguments become as as Well as fallacious as they are.

Was not a fall after all it was a push from God and here's Calvin's reasoning.

It wasn't a fall. It was a push from God and again. All all of the objections, you know, and I think about how Norman Geisler focuses upon looking at Adam. All of the objections these folks raised to Adam unless they're open theists they have to answer the same questions and they can't and they won't and.

Remember the beginning of this talk. He was talking about how basically non-theological Calvary Chapel people are in there. Well, we're Biblicists, you know, we don't do much about theology. If you just read the Bible, you're not become a theologian.

Remember that? Yeah, that's actually honestly what he said. You can go back and listen. We've been playing it and. So they could go to Adam there go to someone about whom we have two chapters of Revelation and none of which actually addresses this particular issue and.

Instead of looking at where we are today and the clear biblical teaching on that they're going to go back to Adam. With no revelatory foundation for doing so come up with certain conclusions. Then read that back into his fallen children as if somehow that's normative for us.

That's that's the the mechanism that these folks like to use. Calvin said.

Sinners do sinful things and that's all sinners can do is sinful things. Non sinners do non sinful things and that's all they could do. So Adam was created according to Calvin and he's right about this in this right since Adam was sinless.

How can we account for the sin of Adam? He wasn't a sinner. You only commit sins if you're a sinner. There's no choice that allows you to do things contrary to your nature in Calvinism. Again here we.

Cannot help but chuckle just a little bit. At the man who claims to know the system so well that he doesn't even understand the categories that are so common in Reformed theology about Able to sin not able to sin able to fall not able to fall the issues regarding Adam and Christ and and Augustine's discussion of these things and and you would think that that would be first and foremost in the presentation.

But in Calvinism, you can only do according to your nature. You can't do contrary to your nature. You can't rise above your nature. Adam was created a sinner. He could only choose our sinless. He can only choose to do sinless things that does not follow.

That is not.

It's of course is not Calvin's position. That's just a canard made up by George Bryson.

But we know from the record that God or that God said Adam sin. So if Adam sin, but we have no explanation for sin in Adam, where are we going to find the explanation in God? So Calvinists would say we don't make God the author of sin.

We just make him the author of the sinner. In other words what we do is we make God make man sin.

Well again, this this is facile and simplistic, but it's it's the best George has to offer. And the relationship between Adam's will and God's will in the issue of the fall. Is one that as Dr. Gerstner mentioned when Reviewing Edwards attempts Jonathan Edwards attempts to Plumb the depths of that relationship without divine revelation.

Edwards didn't choose to follow Calvin's advice at this point. Calvin's advice obviously was We should make an end of speaking when God makes an end of speaking. We should not seek to go past what God has revealed and if God has not revealed the mechanisms Then there are going to be questions that simply cannot be answered Outside of divine revelation and when God chooses to make an end of speaking so should we?

The the great Edwards tried to go past that and as even Gerstner who was a great admirer of Edwards obviously admitted The great Edwards mired himself in a mess of self-contradiction in the process. You just can't go there and So if if a person does not if a person believes God must answer every question we can possibly ask.

Including about people who a no longer exist and be none of us today have their character or nature then You're gonna have a basis upon which to reject all of divine revelation, I guess but if you recognize the arrogance of Taking that stand then you're really and I can have any point of objection.

But what Bryson is saying here is completely unfounded unwarranted the decree of God.

Phenomenological Language, the Fall, and the New Birth

There's two ways to interpret scripture and reform theology. They'll never admit this, but I guarantee I have. It's a fact there's two ways the superficial. What they call the phenomenological truth things appear to be one way the Sun rises Sun sets, but in reality.

It's really the Earth revolving around the Sun right the the newscaster of the weatherman on TV will tell you the Sun's gonna rise and set. That's Phenomenological its way it appears but in reality, it's not really that way behind the scenes or something else in Genesis.

It says Adam sinned. But if you know the deeper truths if you know the hidden things of God, you know that God made Adam sin. It's the same way on the other end when you get to conversion Calvin it appears every one of you who know Christ today.

You thought you made a decision to believe. What you don't know according to reform theology is that God made you a believer see because you were an unbeliever. This is Calvinism's argument. You were an unbeliever.

Unbelievers have an unbelieving nature based on your unbelieving nature. You didn't believe so to become a believer. You don't make a choice as an unbeliever to believe that would be contrary to your nature.

Calvinists say you must become a believer to believe.

We say you must Believe to become a believer now, of course knows the equivocation and and the the tremendous Misdefinition of terms inherent and everything is saying first of all there's no parallel between the relationship of Adam and Adams will and God's will in the fall and The issue of how it is that a dead sinner is raised to spiritual life.

It is not do you are made a believer to be a believer? It is that you are regenerated and give that given the gifts of faith and repentance those are not the same things. And there's a much equivocation being used by Bryson at this particular point that of course leads to all sorts of What sound like silly contradictions?

But that that's a very common ploy. None of the people who attack reform theology. That's also a common ploy the cults to attack the doctrine the Trinity for example to equivocate in terms person and being and make it sound like it's it's sheer lunacy to believe any of this when in point of fact, they're just simply using terms to create a Confusion that is actually not there at all.

We'll continue with George Bryson after we take our break here on the dividing line eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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And we'll go back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning looking at George Bryson and we're almost done with the first portion of this. There's only two so we're making progress today for the first time and I don't know about five weeks or so.

So we can go back to what he is saying. They don't believe in this thing. We call choice.

Oh, yes, we've been anything that's even remotely close to what we call.

The will of the will of man. Actually we do and in fact, we have much deeper fuller richer doctrine of it. And since you issue being theological anyways, what what doctrine do you have? Do you have a doctrine similar to Edwards?

I mean, what do you know? How do you know. It's it's difficult to respond to stuff like this. But again, it's it's a canard of a straw man to say that man's will is not active. The point of course is the fact that man's will is enslaved to sin and Therefore is incapable doing that which is pleasing to God as we read in Romans chapter and an operable will.

So in other words if you act according to nature, you're an unbeliever right before you're a Christian. You're an unbeliever. Even if you say you believe you're still an unbeliever. Unbelievers only not believe.

Believers only believe. So God makes you a believer. That's what they call regeneration when you're born again. You're made into a believer.

I'm sorry, but you know George the nice guy but but he just he just reminds me of one of these folks that that has come to his conclusions and and. Now he it's this rat-a-tat-tat type thing. In fact one of one of our channel denizens Has been listening to to him.

He said I had to I had to Chuckle greatly because whereas I was going to break. He said he was coming at how fast Bryson speaks and he says the man could hardly sound more rushed. Were he drowning in the ocean and addressing his posterity with his last words?

It's true, I mean and and he sounds like he's just he's just so excited about this stuff. And and I guess he gets everybody else excited about it. But but what he's saying just just it's it's just so facile so simplistic.

It just you know. It doesn't fly. Well when you got somebody on the other side of the podium who actually knows they're talking about and can debate you on it. It's it's it's sort of sort of humorous at times if it weren't so sad that that he actually believes that what he's saying is.

It's true. So you don't ever come to believe in God as a matter of choice. God changes you into a believer and as a believer. Well, that's what believers do is believe.

So in other words God frees you from slavery to sin and he gives you a new nature he causes you to be Born again have spiritual life. And of course the person who is made spiritually alive and renewed in the image of Christ is given the gifts of faith and repentance and as John 6 says is a person who is Looking to Christ present tense believing in Christ present tense coming to Christ present tense and.

That sort of I guess you know. The heart of stones taken out a heart of flesh is given the wind blows across the bones. They become living. All of these biblical things are being swept aside and instead God turns you into believers.

Do you believe? You know. Again, this is why monologues work much better than for these folks and dialogues because then the other side can come along and say. Actually, this is what we say and they're all biblical phrases.

Where are we wrong and then you have to change subject and start talking about something else?

Just as you which is normally about survey this by the way didn't believe his unbelievers. So he takes unbelievers and make some believers. That's the argument of Calvinism. We're gonna actually see a quote on that.

I know I'm moving past here, but one more time listen to this. According to John Calvin if we cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people. But just that it so pleases him neither Can we have any reason for his reprobating others?

But his will when God has said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will men are reminded. They are not to seek for any clouds beyond his will. In other words, why is God merciful to some? Do they accept his gracious gift of eternal life?

No way says the Calvinist now. No again.

The the sound that you hear coming from Geneva is John Calvin spinning in his grave at the the. Once again the complete ignoring of everything else that he's had to say specifically in regards to in this particular context.