Tony Costa vs. Bassam Zawadi (Part 2)

with a crossfire of 10 minutes. Cross -examination, that's a good compromise. OK.

First question about the song that I'd like to ask. The reason why

I brought up the doubting of Muhammad is because you brought that up. I'm not trying to introduce a red herring here because you raised the question of Muhammad not doubting when

I responded to it during my bubble period. Now, you mentioned a song that Abu Qari, when he's narrating the call to Muhammad at the cave, you're saying that his narration is weak, although he's not the only one that makes mention of this.

Are you saying that because this is a weak narration that it follows that the story is not true?

Because on the basis of the criterion of embarrassment, which is a criteria of authenticity that is used in ancient literature, including the

New Testament and other sources, why would a Muslim make this up that Muhammad was possessed by jinn and that he wanted to commit suicide?

OK, thanks.

Well, we do apply a different criteria, but I would still say that according to the Western historical method, it's still unreliable because there are gaps in the chains.

So you don't know who's filling the gaps in the chains. So if you don't know who's filling the gap in the chain you can't apply the principle of embarrassment because the principle of embarrassment can only be applied if you know who the person is and know that he would have no such motive to make up a lie.

Now, you would ask, why would a Muslim make up such a lie? Wow, we could spend all day talking about that.

I would refer you to several books on this topic later on where we know that Muslims have made up these lies.

And I'm sure you would have such cases in your own history as well where Christians would make up stuff sometimes for good intentions.

But, again, the main point I'm trying to stress on is that even if I were to assume for the sake of argument alone that this narration is authentic, that the

Prophet did try to commit suicide in the beginning, this is between the early stages of Mecca. So did he die thinking that way?

No. When we look at his narrations later on where he says, I am the first to enter Paradise, no doubt

I am the messenger of Allah. He's speaking confident. So did he die thinking that way?

And that's what I want you to prove. But, again,

I just feel that I just need to press on this a little bit more. What advantage would a Muslim gain by making up a lie that Muhammad was possessed by a jinn?

And not that he wanted to commit suicide on one occasion, but we're told on several occasions when the time of revelation had ceased and Yusuf Ali tells us that there was about a six -month to a two -year period where he received the revelation.

Why are we told, why would a Muslim make up a story that Muhammad would, again, several times want to commit suicide because he had not, and had reassurance, of course, by Gabriel that he was the

Prophet? I don't think you've answered the question. Why would a Muslim make something so embarrassing as this, which had been recorded in the sources?

I'm going to answer it again. There's a gap in the chain.

So, you don't know who's filling that gap. You don't know if it's a Muslim. You don't know if it's a hypocrite acting like a

Muslim. You don't know what his intentions are. And, again, I have the narrations here.

And I can even give you further arguments if you want, which gives us good reason to think that the story is not true.

But, again, I would see the need to, I actually have the rebuttal right in front of me, but I would see the need for you to delve deeper into this topic.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, I'll grant it to you, only for the sake of argument, that Muhammad tried to kill himself.

Muhammad's body was possessed in the early stages of Raqqa. Even if the narration is authentic, that's what it's saying.

But did he die upon that position? Maybe he doubted first. He did his research.

Then he became convinced. So, there's no problem with that. Eventually, he became assured.

So, I would see the reason why I need to delve any deeper here. I'm willing to grant it for the sake of argument that the story is authentic.

So, the early stages of Raqqa. And, again, I'll refer you to my article on my website, Listing Raqqa Muhammad's Contemplation of Suicide to Prove His Prophethood, assuming he did, for more details.

You made reference to Surah 10, in verse 95, where...

OK, I have... I have Bin Fal's translation. He said,

Thou canst reveal what will be revealed unto thee, then question those who read the scripture that was before thee.

In verse 96 of... This is a Bin Fal's English translation. In verse 96, we are told,

And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.

Can you not say, O son, that at least it is implicit in 95 and 96 that there is some measure of doubt on the part of Muhammad concerning that which

Allah had revealed to him otherwise? Why would Allah tell Muhammad to question the

Ahl al -Kitab, the people of the scriptures? Again, when the first was revealed,

Surah 10, verse 94, the Prophet replied back and he said, I do not doubt, therefore

I will not ask. And when Allah says, And do not be of those who doubt, you have to understand that sometimes in the

Quran, Allah speaks to the Prophet directly, but it's actually intended for the general audience reading.

There are several examples of this, like Surah 33, Ayah 123, and other examples from Surah 65 and 66.

So it's not clear proof that when Allah says, be not of those who doubt, it can simply be a warning.

Make sure you do not become one of those who doubt, and don't be of those who doubt. But I'm interested, and what

I find really interesting is that the Prophet's response. I do not doubt, therefore

I will not ask. So that's what I find really interesting. You had mentioned, you had asked for the source for the statement from Abu Bakr, where he says he does not feel safe from the deception of Allah.

The source there, I saw, is taken from my colleague, Muhammad Khalid, the successors of the

Messenger. That's the source. No, I didn't say it's a hint.

I didn't say it was a hint. But notice again here, you had said that Allah was promised heaven.

It's Abu Bakr that was the first companion who was actually specifically told he would enter paradise.

And my point is this. Why is it that Abu Bakr trusts

Muhammad, but his problem is not with Muhammad. His problem is he doesn't feel, he doesn't rest assured from the deception of Allah.

And so he says that he, he says I would not rest assured, feel safe from the deception of Allah, even if I had to run from paradise.

Now, even though we're not talking of Abu Bakr, he's not the subject of tonight's debate. Again, I'm not trying to introduce you in a hearing.

What I'm trying to say is if Abu Bakr, who was a close companion of the Prophet, whom the

Prophet said he will enter into Jannah, how is it that Abu Bakr, this close associate, had no confidence that Allah would keep his word in this regard?

My simple response is that there's no evidence that Abu Bakr ever said this. I have the reference with me.

It's translated by Muhammad Mahdi Sharif, Beirut, Lebanon, 2005.

That is not an authoritative source in Islamic literature. We need to give, and I searched for this both in Arabic and in English.

I knew you were going to bring this up in our debate. I searched really hard for this. I could not find inspiration. I find it surprising that Abu Bakr would say this himself.

Because the scholars that I read, and from what I know, Allah's deception is not applicable to believers.

It's only applicable to disbelievers. I didn't even explain that if you want me to, but it's kind of off -topic.

What does it mean that Allah deceives disbelievers? It's off -topic. My simple response is,

Tony, prove to me that Abu Bakr said this. I don't think he said this. There's about a minute left.

Okay, I'm actually excited to answer that question, but I'll wait for the cross -examination.

Surah 7, verse 99, you were saying to show a passage just here. Can you mention something?

In Surah 7, verse 99, we're told, And are they then secure from Allah's team?

None do themselves secure from Allah's team, save folk that perish.

So, would you agree, Bassam, that in Surah 7, verse 99, that what this text is basically saying is no one is secure from Allah's team.

The only people who think they're safe from Allah's team are the disbelievers.

And so, isn't it clearly implicit in this text that this is a warning, that we are not to assume that we are secure from Allah's ultimate plan and ordination?

Yeah, so we'll give you the two -minute response. I would say that we need to read this verse in its proper context.

If you read the three verses prior to it, it's clearly talking about disbelievers. And I've checked all the commentaries on this.

I have not seen any scholar understand it in this way. And the scholars, and now, just out of everyone's interest, what does it mean that Allah deceives the disbelievers?

The scholars have understood this verse to be stressing on the fact that the disbelievers shouldn't feel secure about their salvation just because they're living good lives and having been blessed with good health and materialistic benefits.

The deception of Allah, as understood by the scholars in this verse, is referring to Allah blessing the disbelievers with good health and benefits, which gives them the impression that they have made the right choice in their faith.

It has nothing to do with Allah promising anyone any false promise of security. Again, Tony, I want to remind you that we're not here to debate whether Muhammad misunderstood the

Qur 'an or whether the Qur 'an is not clear. Do you have any evidence that the

Prophet felt insecure about his salvation because of this verse? That's what

I think you need to tackle. Yes, I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.

You brought up the Asa argument where you argued that God may be...

He may forgive the Prophet, peace be upon him, and I responded to that in my opening statement.

Was my opening statement convincing enough for you or did you have any problems with it? I did not find it convincing simply because the

Qur 'an seems to be very clear. And again, I'm reading the Qur 'an as a non -Muslim, not as a

Muslim. From what I gather from the Qur 'an, ultimately, one's salvation, one's damnation rests with Allah.

It seems to be a consistent theme and I think the doctrine of Qadr, which is historically a classical doctrine within Islam, maintains the fact that because Allah is so absolutely sovereign, that Allah determines who will be saved and who will not.

And therefore, the language of As 'an is consistent with this theological perspective that ultimately, if everything rests on Allah's sovereign will, then it logically follows that salvation is only a possibility.

It's not a guarantee. We kind of diverted away from the

Asa argument, but I'll just continue what you just said. You said that, assuming for the sake of argument, that Islam believes in a very hyper -Calvinistic -like view of predestination, but it doesn't matter whether the

Prophet, peace be upon him, would be going to Paradise due to free will or God's will. What matters is that God promised him that he would go to Paradise.

So regardless of why the Prophet is assured, because of God's sovereign will or his free will or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that he was assured.

What do you think about that? I don't think you've provided anything from the

Qur 'an. I know that most of the information you've obtained on this question has been from sources exterior to the

Qur 'an, but in the Qur 'an itself, I don't think you have convinced us that Muhammad's assurance has been assured.

And Surah 48, verses 1 to 2, certainly doesn't seem to intimate that Muhammad's salvation was assured.

It simply says that he may forgive your past sins and your future sins, but when we examine the life of Muhammad, we've noticed there is this consistent anxiety and this fear of Allah.

And so if I forgive you, if you've done something against me, and I have forgiven you and I've pardoned you, and we've become buddies, and after this event we go out and we have a coke or something, we're at peace with each other.

You don't have to fear me as an enemy. I've become your friend. So again, if Allah has become the friend of Muhammad, but if he hasn't assured him of his salvation, then why is there this constant anxiety and this fear?

Okay, I'm going to put three mini -questions into one, because it's all related to what you just said.

One, why are you restricting me to only appeal to the Qur 'an when you know that our authentic sources,

Islamic authority sources, also know anything? Two, you said that Surah 48, 2, is not clear to you that the

Prophet has past and future sins forgiven, but when Aisha approached the Prophet and said, why are you praying so late when

Allah has forgiven you your past and future sins? Aisha seemed confident and understood the verse to be safe.

The Prophet didn't correct her. The Prophet didn't say, no, maybe he will forgive you. Don't, don't, you know, hold your horses.

And regarding the anxiety, I already said that it's possible that the Prophet could fear other things such as painful trials in life and painful death, but still be guaranteed for his salvation.

So where could you show me that the Prophet's anxiety was in relation to his salvation?

You showed me his anxiety when the Qur 'an was given to him, but where did it lead him to salvation? Well, I think that, the first, let me answer, you gave me three questions, let me answer the first one.

The reason why I'm appealing fundamentally to the Qur 'an is because, first and foremost, the

Qur 'an is the Qalimatullah, it's the word of Allah, and the Qur 'an is considered as that revealed word that has come down, that was written in the

Quran. And so, what I'm saying is, the primary source of your faith is the Qur 'an. The Hadith literature, of course, is secondary.

It is not fundamental or prior to that of the Qur 'an. And so, the reason why

I'm asking you about the Qur 'an is why is it that in this word that has come down from Allah, the sacred word of Allah, why do we not find these messages when we have this certainty that we find later in the

Hadith? The reason why I talk about the Hadith as being developmental, Islam, is because we do notice that there is a trajectory in the

Hadith where there is development. For just a quick example, I don't want to get off topic. Muhammad claimed he could never perform miracles.

He never performed a miracle. His miracle was the Qur 'an. But in the Hadith, he had stories of Muhammad feeding multitudes, water coming out of his fingers.

This clearly shows a development in the thinking of the Hadith literature. Now, you're talking about the

Hadith of Aisha and how she comes to the Prophet and he's praying and she says her sins have been forgiven.

He says, well, why should I not be a loyal slave of Allah? But that still doesn't answer the question.

If his sins have been forgiven, past and future, why does he continue to beg for forgiveness 70 times a day, 100 times a day?

And I think the third question had to do with the fear of Allah. Something about why you fear Allah and what basis does that have in his salvation

I think has a lot to do with his relationship of salvation to Allah. Why is he fearing that the

Day of Judgment has come? If he is seeing from the Day of Judgment, why does he fear the Day of Judgment?

Will he make some effort? Yes, fully aware that the

Qur 'an is our primary source, but the Qur 'an continuously tells us to refer to the Prophet, peace be upon him.

It also says in Surah 69 and 44 that one of the functions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, is to teach us the

Qur 'an. And so we don't read, we're not hadith rejectors, which is a very recent and modern theoretical group in Islamic thought.

So we're orthodox Muslims and we accept the hadith literature as authoritative.

So yes, the Qur 'an is the primary source, but this very primary source is asking us to refer to another, to the hadith, to the

Prophet. And that's how we understand the Qur 'an. I mean, there is a question about,

I mean, when Muhammad was, one of the hadiths were told that when they came to Muhammad, when he was under a spell, the magic that he was under,

I think it was Abu Bakr Omar who said, Why do we need the Prophet to write anything? He was asked for something to write so that he would not go astray.

And I don't know if it was Omar or Abu Bakr, but the response was Omar. Omar says, Why do we need the Prophet to write anything since we have the

Qur 'an already? And so it seems to me that Omar recognized that the

Qur 'an in itself is sufficient. What I'm only saying is this, that the hadith literature, as you know

Ghassan, is a very complicated chain of narration. Abu Qadhi took all of these narrations, all of these traditions, and he said that less than 2 % were authentic.

That is a large amount of material to see. So that's why I'm saying that the hadith literature, yes, there are levels of authenticity, but Abu Qadhi took all of this bonded literature and reduced it to less than 2%.

So why I'm saying is this, if the Qur 'an is revealed word of Allah, why is it that the assurance of Muhammad is not clearly set out in the

Qur 'an as it is earlier in the hadith? Last question. You're asking a question.

It's about two minutes, so last question. The thing is, because I assume that we're here today and we're assuming the hadith are part of the

Islamic teachings and you took that as a given. But now it seems like you're questioning the authenticity of the hadith, so this is kind of taking us to a whole new level.

Regarding your comment on Abu Qadhi saying that less than 2 % are authentic, that's actually a very common misunderstanding even amongst

Muslims. I wouldn't really blame you for that. Actually what happened is that Abu Qadhi collected 600 ,000 narrations.

When he says narration, he's saying separate chains of transmission. So there could be one hadith with 14 different chains.

So you consider that not one hadith, but 14. So that's why the number was so big, 600 ,000.

So he didn't really reject 600 ,000 in Qadhi. I guess

I really don't know what to ask you anymore because we're kind of, since we're getting off topic to authenticity of Qadhi.

So basically what you, I'll just basically answer your question. You said why wouldn't the Quran have as much details as it does in the hadith?

The simple answer is because we don't believe everything is found in the Quran. There are many key aspects of doctrine that are found in the hadith.

We know how to pray from the hadith. We know detailed rulings about our fasting from hadith and not everything is in the

Quran. So I thought you were coming with that basic understanding and that we were going to work with that.

So I guess, I don't know. Okay, so you're not solo scriptura

Muslim? I am a solo scriptura, but hadith is part of it. Okay, so if I'm Quranic, so if I was, okay, so if I was in a deserted island and all

I had was the Quran, would I be able to follow God around me? You would be able to obtain salvation through it because the

Quran is extremely clear that God is one and that the five pillars of Islam and key aspects of doctrine are very clear in the

Quran. So. Okay, so you respond a little bit early. Well, let me begin my closing statements by again expressing my thanks to Musaf and these kind gentlemen.

And I have a new friend tonight and it's been indeed enjoyable dialoguing with him and sharing our thoughts with each other which goes to show that Muslims and Christians can get along.

They can agree to disagree and agree away and to investigate the truth for themselves and if we believe that we serve the

God of truth then it is incumbent upon us to seek truth, to delve into truth and to honor

God in so doing. You will remember at the opening of my statement tonight

I argued four points that I believe argue very forcefully that the

Quran and the Islamic traditions do show indeed an element of doubt in Muhammad and uncertainty.

I pointed out to be the first point that Muhammad displayed a consistent pattern of fear and anxiety in his relation with Allah and the afterlife.

And this of course is reflected in an absence of security and constant peace that Muhammad had with Allah.

I pointed out to his numerous confessions. I mentioned the fact that Muhammad would confess his sins 70 times another source says 100 times a day.

I also pointed out I think Hassan mentioned this but I didn't want to go into great detail but remember

I pointed out that Muhammad's death was not expected and if you remember what I said earlier in the

Quran in Surah 69 it refers to Allah punishing those who would tamper with his word who would change his word by grabbing him by the arm and by removing the aorta that is their life artery.

Remember when Muhammad was dying he said that he not only had agonizing pain in his death but he said that he felt as if his aorta was being severed because of the poison that he had ingested.

Now there are cases in the Quran we mentioned this in 10 verses the only reason why I mentioned this in 10 verses is because we do have an example here where there was some tampering with the revelation of Allah.

But there's also in the traditions the story of a scribe that Muhammad had and this scribe became an apostate because as he was writing down the

Quran as it was being recited by Muhammad he had suggested to Muhammad rephrasing certain parts of the

Quran to make them sound lofty. Muhammad gave him permission and of course he reasoned well if I, a regular scribe can change the word of Allah how can this be the word of Allah?

And I think we do seem to have some evidence here that there is some tampering that went on with the words of the

Quran. And so it's interesting that the warning that Allah gives against those who tamper with his word is the same expression that Muhammad speaks of in his death.

The third point that I mentioned as well is the fact that Muhammad is the only prophet upon which

Allah and his angels are praying for him. Of course we have to ask the question why does

Allah have to pray? If Allah prays then who does he pray to? Because if Allah is praying to someone then we have shirk here.

But of course we are usually told that salat here means blessings while the Arabic word is barakah the word for blessings, barakah the word for prayers is salat or salat, prayers.

Why is it that Moses is not prayed for? Why is it that Abraham is not prayed for? Yes, the hadith talks about honoring the companions of the family of Muhammad, etc.

But notice the Quran says nothing about praying for Moses or sending blessings on Jesus or sending blessings on Noah.

The Quran only calls on Muslims to call blessings down upon the prophet Muhammad. Now why do you have to ask

Allah to pray for Muhammad? Why do you need to ask Allah to bless Muhammad? Again, if he is in China what's the need to pray?

I understand why Roman Catholics pray so that loved ones can be released from purgatory but why do

Muslims have to pray? And I think the source of all this if Muhammad was assured of his salvation on what basis was he assured?

I think that's important. We must mention the basis of his assurance. Not just whether he was assured or not.

Why was he assured? How did he feel assured? On what basis? I think this rests in the fact that the

Quran presents to us that Allah is a schemer that Allah can deceive

He can deceive and this explains how the blockers reticence to trust Allah.

And so I submit to you tonight that I think the evidence points in the direction according to the Quran principally the

Quran that Muhammad was not fully certain of his salvation. And that's why later in his literature had to develop that in a shared event for future reasons.

Tony reaffirmed his argument regarding why did the Prophet say that his aborta was paining him?

And he related this to the Quranic verse which spoke about where Allah said that he would cut the aorta of the

Prophet peace be upon him or the artery if he were to make up revelations. And he mentioned

Abdullah ibn Abi Sadr as an example. But first of all the narration regarding Abdullah ibn

Abi Sadr is not authentic. The narration discussing his apostasy states that when he apostatized well first let me give you a background of the story.

Abdullah ibn Abi Sadr was one of the scribes of the Prophet. This is what the narration says. He was one of the scribes of the

Prophet. And then he said that one time he Abdullah ibn Abi Sadr was writing something that was really not part of the

Quran and then the Prophet approved of it. So Abdullah ibn Abi Sadr said what is this messenger?

So he left Islam and he went to Mecca. That's what the story says. But the narration is not authentic. The narration discussing his apostasy says that when he apostatized he returned to Mecca which indicates that his apostasy occurred in Medina.

However the disputed verse that Abdullah ibn Abi Sadr is talking about which he said that the

Prophet allowed him to tamper with was Surah 23 which according to experts of Quran sciences was fully revealed in Mecca before the

Prophet's migration to Medina. Hence this story is a fabrication or at least doubtful. Secondly, why should

I believe Abdullah ibn Abi Sadr's testimony if he actually did state it? Thirdly, if it were true that the

Prophet would allow the scribes to add to the text as they pleased then how come it was only Abdullah ibn

Abi Sadr out of the more than 40 scribes of the Prophet that felt uneasy about it? Fourthly, none of the shows that Muhammad peace be upon him doubted his salvation.

So again, I don't know how this is related to the topic. I provided statements from the

Prophet peace be upon him himself where he stated with confidence that he would be the first to enter Paradise.

His past and future sins have been forgiven which logically implies that his salvation is secure. He said that he had no doubt about being a messenger of God which means that he had no doubts and was assured of the fact that Allah informed him about his salvation.

All this evidence is explicit and not a single shred of explicit evidence has been provided to counter this.

The next step we should all take is study and investigate the source and reason behind why

Muhammad peace be upon him felt assured about his salvation which is the Quran. If you approach it with an open mind and an open heart

I believe that Allah will make it a source for you to seek your salvation from him as well. Thank you very much.

Hello. This is a question for Tony. Tony, are you assured of your salvation?

And if you are, do you ever ask to forget this? And if so, why? Okay, I don't know whether the question is relevant to Muhammad's salvation but if you permit me to answer the question

I will try to answer the question if that's okay with the moderators. alright.

I am assured of my salvation not because it's something that I have done not because of any good that I have done or any barriers that I have heard.

My salvation rests alone on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary and his resurrection and it rests on the fact that God chose me

I did not choose God He chose me Christ and He has saved me and He has forgiven me.

Now, the confession that I make for my sins is a forgiveness that has been already provided by God through Jesus Christ that in the

New Testament and because you asked me a question about my Christian conviction I have to refer to the

New Testament here in the New Testament in the first letter of John chapter 1 verse 7 we are told there that the blood of Jesus his

Son continues to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and so the forgiveness of my sins has already been provided for it doesn't mean that when you become a believer you become sinless it doesn't mean you become perfected and it's not here on this side of heaven but what it means is that even if you fall

God has already made a provision through Jesus Christ for you but that's why

I kept asking the psalm in my debate in my opening statement in my rebuttal I kept asking the psalm what is the basis of Mohammed's assurance my basis is the finished work of Jesus Christ and that is the basis of my assurance

I can't just say yeah I have assurance that I'm saved and that's it that ends the discussion my salvation rests on something and it rests on the finished work of Christ that's why

I kept asking for a question about on what basis does Mohammed's assurance rest

Tony I'm not sure if you answered the question I think the question was do you still ask for forgiveness of your sins yes

I do and that's because as I said the new testament does not teach that we become perfected here but the provision for the forgiveness of my sins is secured it's already given to me by the finished work of Jesus Christ and it's an ongoing thing that is available to the children of God so that's it

I don't think Christians can be assured that they have salvation if you're an

Arminian and you believe that apostasy is possible then you don't know whether you're going to apostatize in the future if you're a

Calvinist and you believe that God elects those who are to be saved I don't think you have any way of knowing that you're from amongst the elect sure the

Bible does provide the believers with a way on how to test whether you have the

Holy Spirit dwelling inside of you and it tells you that you would bear the fruits of the

Spirit but the Bible doesn't provide you with a clear 100 % way on how to test whether you do have the

Holy Spirit inside of you and that's what I would say and I don't want to delve any further onto that point because I think we'll be going off topic wonderful debate guys my question is specifically for Tony Tony you alluded to throughout your talk that the

Prophet Muhammad has shown some sort of fear and anxiety throughout his life and especially when he was praying for forgiveness as I recall when

I speak to my Christian brothers they mention that Jesus was also praying and he showed some fear when he says take this cup away from me and I ask them what is that and they say that shows

Jesus humanity so can we not when I look at that when you state that can we not assume that why this contradiction cannot show

Muhammad's humanity as what he was actually fearing the question about Jesus's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane it's not described as fear nowhere does it say that he was afraid that he feared what the context shows us is that Jesus is in the garden he is about to face his execution this is

Thursday night after his last supper with his disciples the following day he's going to be arrested in the garden he's going to be taken the next day he's going to be executed by crucifixion if you read the text very carefully

Jesus does not say he's afraid he says to the father is it possible is there another way that this cup won't pass from me but not my will but thy will be done

Jesus does not show fear there can show submission absolute submission to the father and what is important for us to realize in that text there is if you read the other gospels in harmony together you'll notice that Jesus says what shall

I say shall I say deliver me from this hour when it was for this hour that I have come to the world so Jesus is fully aware of what's going on what he is facing is this cup what does this cup mean take this cup away from me well the cup that is referred to there is the cup of wrath the cup of his anger which

Jesus is going to bear upon himself as the atonement for his sinful sins so you have to read that in the context of his passion that is his sufferings that he's going to endure and you cannot read that apart from that context so it's important to realize that it's not fear at the end of the day

Jesus is saying father not my will but your will be done if there's another way for me to suffer then show it if it's possible but ultimately it's what you will and according to the scriptures

Jesus was faithful and obedient to God to the very death first book of Peter chapter 2 verse 17 orders

Christians show proper respect to everyone love the brother and the believers fear God honor the king so Christians are to fear

God and Tony claims that he's assured of his salvation so that means that it's possible to be assured of your salvation and fear

God at the same time and again I'm just amazed by the inconsistency when

Tony's giving examples of the prophets that anxiety like when a strong wind comes or during the eclipse he's appealing to the hadith but the very same hadith literature shows the prophet extremely confident that he's going to paradise he said

I am the first one who will enter paradise no doubt I am the messenger of God so he's not allowing me to appeal to the hadith but he

I could say well Basan the hadith came 200 years later but he's appealing to the very same hadith to prove his point

I find that to be inconsistent could we get the next two questions for Basan now please just to balance out the questions for Basan thanks if you could work it out amongst yourselves please so that it's more balanced out this question is for Basan at what precise point did

Muhammad then become assured of his salvation because you were willing to concede to an argument that there was a possibility he wasn't assured of his salvation early on so at what point did he become assured and the question as it relates is what prompted that change because it certainly was not clear early on but you would argue that it was clear later on so what was that point and what prompted that change what prompted that change answering your last question would be the revelation of Allah to the

Prophet peace be upon him that he would enter into paradise and that his past and future sins were forgiven what is the exact point

I honestly don't know because I wasn't the Prophet's psychiatrist I don't know what was going on in his head and what happened during what stage in his life all that really matters is was he assured before he died it doesn't matter if it was a few years before or a decade before what matters is did he die was he assured and the answer is a clear yes

I would just answer the question by again one of the surah 48 that Musa was referring to and you can read it in English translation you will notice that the text does not give certainty here it says that your past sins and your future sins may be forgiven again there is not certainty here this is not the language of absolute certainty or assurance it is possibility it may be forgiven and so the fact that Muhammad continues to be forgiven 70 times 100 times the fact that you have to pray blessings upon him why ask for peace upon Muhammad if Muhammad is at peace with God and Jannah I think it seems to be clear that we only pray for those who are still lost next question from Bassam please

Bassam was exchanging the question that you left us to and you gave an example that you prayed but that didn't sound but how do you reply to this with surah 16 verse 89 that says we have sent down to thee the book explaining all things what does all things mean that it came to explain molecular biology and astrophysics no all things that are relevant to wanting to seek salvation so you have to read all of the

Quran and understand what it's commanding you to do and when you read verses such as surah 16 44 and several other verses you would see that the

Quran is telling you that the prophet is there one of his functions is one of the functions of the prophet is to teach us the

Quran and then to explain it to us so the very detailed Quran is instructing you to do this so there's no contradiction now

Tony says surah 48 says I spent a good four minutes in my opening statement dealing with the word

I didn't see a direct response to that and he said why does Muhammad continue to ask for repentance

I again responded to that in my rebuttal and I didn't get a direct counter rebuttal to that I think the questioner has raised a very very interesting point that is the fact that the

Quran which is supposed to be a clear revelation from Allah from the mother of the book is incomplete it is not a complete book without hadith it is basically incomplete which again raises the question of if this is from Allah then why is it that it is incomplete that it is insubstantial without any further details which hadith there's even among the denominations within Islam the

Shiites will hold to a different hadith than the Sunnis which hadith is authentic which one should be followed and so we run into a lot of problems with this as a

Protestant Christian Evangelical Christian I don't have a problem with this because I believe it's full of scripture

I believe scripture alone is sufficient for faith and doctrine and for living but the

Muslim can't say that basically the Quran cannot stand without the hadith so we have to raise the question did not

Allah reveal something that was sufficient and clear enough for guidance and according to the

Quran it is clear but is it clear why do you need the hadith because it's not clear

Tony I think is that right? in the

Quran Surah Al -Shu 'ara 26 85 it says وَاجْعَلَنِي مِنْ وَرَسَةٍ جَنَّةٍ عَلْمٍ which means and may be one of the inheritance of the paradise of the life and you'll find a lot of verses in the

Quran saying the same meaning that the paradise is to be inherited in which the word inheritance in Arabic which is وَاجْعَلَنِي or وَاجْعَلَنِي which should by all means have someone to be one who would have been dead to inherit this guy should be

God and then I will get his this inheritance me as a Christian you know

I will inherit the eternal life because Jesus died on the cross but for the Quran it's not clear because if the believer the

Muslim makes a meaning because what do you think about it because it's concerning salvation one reads

Surah Al -Minun in the first ten verses talks about the characteristics and features of the believers and that they pray and believe in Allah and stay away from fornication etc and then

Allah says هُمْ الْبَارِكُونَ they are the inheritors of paradise so this is a promise from Allah that if you were to do what he said then you will inherit paradise this is your due right that emphasizes that Allah does not break his promise

Tony said the Quran is supposed to be a clear revelation and complete yeah but the clear revelation and complete book is telling you to refer to another source there is no direct contradiction between those two because if the book itself is saying it's clear and somewhere else it says refer to the messenger that means it's clearly telling you to refer to the messenger he says

Bible is Sola Scriptura yeah but we're Sola Scriptura too but the point is we believe that the

Quran and Hadith are scripture he said which Hadith? Shi 'a and Sunni it's a really good way of topic

I'm really surprised about the red herrings here this is a different study all together and I want to ask

Tony a question maybe I can answer it later why do you continue asking for repentance if Jesus died for your sins the whole point of God forgiving you are you asking for repentance in order for the sin to not be punished

God already punished all sin against Christians and what's the point of repentance and if you say

I'm trying to do repentance in order to restore my relationship with God then doesn't that show that you're redefining the word repentance okay

I think for some reason this crosses that issue but no I'm not sure if the answer to the question that was asked about those who carry their paradigms but since he's raised the question

Quran and Hadith is not so scriptural because so scriptural means the scripture from God is authoritative alone according to Islamic belief the

Quran is the pure word of God the Hadith is the words and deeds of Muhammad and there's weak narrations strong narrations there's no evidence is referred to in the

Quran but the Shias will say yes it is referred to but we don't accept the

Hadith of the Sunnis we don't accept their Hadith what I'm trying to say is that in Islam there is a difference of opinion on these questions that's what

I'm saying now let me ask you a question here about repentance when

Christians talk about forgiveness there is a difference between what the Bible calls a judgment of forgiveness and familial forgiveness that isn't a simple okay it's over a minute

I gotta stop is this for Tony yes thank you for being here

Tony thank you Bassam my question is concerning the word Asa in Arabic I understand

Bassam gave Asa means maybe in relation to Muhammad's salvation

Bassam gave many examples of you know from lexicon from Tafsir where Asa can have meanings other than maybe

Mr. Bassam do you have any evidence from Arabic lexicon that Asa is exclusively maybe not anything else please answer this question

I'm not an Arabic scholar nor do I intend to be one the sources that I'm referring to are the lexical sources that are available to us in the scholarly field and the references that I cited from the

Quran about those people about whom Allah may have mercy may forgive etc.

the use of those words there do imply probability excuse me possibility it doesn't imply it doesn't infer certainty it doesn't infer assurance the way those words are used in that particular context clearly show possibility it may be perhaps that is the meaning that I see in those texts that's what the lexical sources are telling me

I'm not saying that a word only has one particular meaning because that's ludicrous you know that even in English a word can have different meanings depending on the context the reason why

I said what I said in regards to those lexical passages is because the lexical sources tell us that these passages refer to possibilities not certainties or assurances

I'd like to ask which lexical sources you're referring to the point is did the early Muslims understand these passages that way

I also said that the word Asa could mean Khalil in Arabic which means I could play the same game with the countenance of the

Bible why don't Protestants accept the future canonical books so what really is solo scriptura what is scripture so let's not go there and he's saying that hadith are not solo scriptura they're solo scriptura because Quran is the only actual word of God but we have to understand that Muslims don't say that the hadith are as holy as the

Quran they say that they are as authoritative as the Quran because the prophets said it and they received revelation from Allah next question for Bassam please yes thank you very much for the interview

I want to know absolute is there any absolute assurance in the

Quran that's assured of meaning and purpose again it's like me asking you don't appeal to the old testament only stay focused on the gospels show me this and that I mean is that justice again the

Quran is really it's not like no Muslim scholars think this way no one says no it's not good enough from the hadith only from the

Quran so I don't know why this arises I am not a hadith rejector

I'm an orthodox only Muslim and I don't know why you're asking me to discard what

I believe to be authoritative that's not my religion but if you do insist on something from the Quran I would say that the

Quran verse an authoritative

I know why you're asking me to discard believe to be authoritative that's not my religion but if you something from authoritative verse

I know why you're asking me to discard what

I believe to be authoritative that's not the

Quran verse an authoritative I to discard be authoritative but if you insist on know why you're that's not my religion but if to discard what

I believe to be authoritative So, there is a difference here. We've got to be careful that we don't equivocate our terms.

We have to be careful that we understand the Biblical view of predestination and the Quranic view. There is overlap, but they're different in their particular details.

Again, one should not read the verses from the Quran where Allah says He guides when He wills and misguides when He wills in isolation.

We have to read all the other verses where Allah clarifies who the people are He's misguiding, who the people are

He's guiding. And the Orthodox Islamic view of predestination is that predestination covers four aspects.

One, that God creates our actions. Two, God wills our actions. Three, He has prior knowledge of our actions.

And four, He recorded our actions. And in the early Islamic, there were two early

Islamic sects, the Qadariyya, they took the extreme view about free will. It's all about free will, they neglected

God's will. The Jabariyya neglected free will and they said it's all about God's will.

The moderate path is the Orthodox Islamic stance, which is that we believe that God wills that we have free will.

And we believe that there is perfect harmony between these two things. Question for Ghassan, please.

On the topic of was the Prophet Muhammad assured of salvation or not? I don't see how what you said first follows to the question.

Just in answering the last question, does Allah have the right to not disclose? Yes, He does have the right not to disclose, but He also has the right to disclose.

So He happened to disclose it for Muhammad peace be upon him and a few other selected individuals.

Now, what is necessary to atone for sins?

And I don't believe that the Old Testament taught this either. If you read what the Jews say, they would say that there are three ways to atone for your sins.

According to the Old Testament, they would say one is contrite repentance. One is charity. If you read the book of Daniel, you would see that sins were removed due to charity.

And the third option was blood. So we don't think that blood is absolutely necessary. And the whole arbitrary will issue,

I can't answer in such a short time. It would require more time to address that. So I can't say more. I think the question again raises the question of basis.

What was the basis of His forgiveness? What was the source of His forgiveness? And Ghassan said, well, it's definitely not atonement.

But he's clearly correct to say the Old Testament is not to teach this. The book of Leviticus, the whole book of Leviticus is about sacrifice.

Leviticus 17, 11 God says, I have given you the blood upon the altar to make atonement for your sin. And without that blood, there is no atonement for sin.

And so, again, you can't read the scriptures in isolation as some church people do with the

Quran. You have to read all of scripture in unison. The concept of sacrifice is not completely foreign to Islam.

In the story of Abraham taking his son to sacrifice, you'll notice that Allah provided a ram in his place.

And to this day, here in the Hajj, the sacrifices are done in remembrance of what Abraham did. So I think there are still remnants of this view, of this idea within Islam.

Ishmael or Isaac, whoever you want to say it is, was spared in an end with Isaac. Tony, please.

It is actually a continuation of one of the things. If salvation is given to you by the finished work of Jesus Christ that you said, why do you still ask for forgiveness?

Also, if that's the case, why is it hard to accept that Muhammad, peace be upon him, asked for forgiveness?

Even if God promised him salvation, the same way you're asking for forgiveness. Because it's being asked a second time around.

Just to clarify, if you are saved, then why do you continue to ask for forgiveness?

Thank you for the question. As I was trying to point out earlier, there is a forgiveness of sins that we have been given by God.

What I call judgmental forgiveness. That is, when we come to faith in Christ, God forgives us of all our sins.

That does not mean, however, that we are perfected. It doesn't mean that once you become a Christian, you aren't perfect. Or that you can go rob a bank and commit adultery, whatever you want.

Because of our fallen nature, while we are here, no one is perfect. We all admit that. We can fall into sin.

And the Bible says that as family of God, the New Testament is very clear that Christians are children of God.

Which violates the Quran 518, where it says that you should not say you're sons of God.

Why would Allah punish you if you are sons of Allah and His Beloved? You should say you are servants. But the New Testament is very clear that Christians are children of God.

And as children of God, they seek God's forgiveness when they fall. Now the difference between the Christian view and the view of Muhammad, why is it that Muhammad can ask for forgiveness and have all his sins forgiven, is the

Christian rests on the basis of Christ's finished work. What does Muhammad's assurance rest on?

There is no atonement there. There is no atonement for his sin. On what basis does

God forgive Muhammad? Does God owe Muhammad anything? Is Muhammad good enough for God to forgive? God even tells

Muhammad in the Quran, forgive your sin daily. So I have a basis for my redemption.

I have a basis for my salvation. And the question I've been asking tonight is, what is the basis of Muhammad's salvation?

I don't think we've been given an answer other than because Allah wanted it so. Again, it doesn't really make sense to me how you could repent for your sins if they were already taken care of and punished.

It just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like we're redefining the word repentance. He said that I should read the

Old Testament, not in isolation, but in full context, and he referred to the book of Leviticus, talking about sacrifice.

Okay, I said that. One of the ways of atoning is blood sacrifice, but read Daniel 4 .24 where it says, and your sins will be with charity removed.

So here, sins were removed with charity and not with blood. He says, what is the basis for Allah forgiving

Muhammad, peace be upon him? Again, it's not really related to the topic, but the question was, was

Muhammad assured, and not what was the basis. But the basis is that God is just. He created us weak.

He knows that we're prone to sin. And it depends on how we carry ourselves after we sin.

Do we repent? Do we abandon? Do we regret what we have done? And that's pretty much it.

I can't get into any more details about it. It's a whole topic on its own, and it's off -topic.

This is the final question. Who is it for? Can the psalm throw more light on the fear factor and what was the subsequent training for his forgiveness and his wife's hafiz?

But really, at this point, emphasized so much by Tony. Considering the fact that Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam had a mission, he had to bring the message of Allah and the message of the

Quran to the people. And he had to set an example to the people by his actions, by his words.

And also considering the fact that like I said, the

Quran says that fear Allah. For sure, fear Allah is one of the righteous attributes of the believers.

How can it be one of the righteous attributes of the believers and the Prophet to fear Allah? It's supposed to be a role model for us.

Now, we could fear God, but there are so many things that we could fear from Him.

We could fear a painful death. We could fear trials in this life. The Prophet said, the

Prophets are the ones who receive the most trials in this life. And then the righteous believers.

So, of course the Prophet would be fearful of these trials. Of course he would be fearful of a painful death. But where did

Tony show that he feared that Allah would break his promise and put him in hell? That's the fear and anxiety that he's supposed to show.

Now, why did the Prophet continue asking for repentance? I answered this in my opening statement.

And I rebutted, but Tony didn't respond. I said that it's possible that Allah already knew in advance how the

Prophet would act in the future. That the Prophet would ask for repentance 100 times a day, 70 times a day.

Allah knew this in advance. So, what he merely did was that he told the Prophet prior, by the way, your sins are forgiven.

And the Prophet continued being pious even after being told that because Allah knew that the

Prophet would continue doing that. And the Prophet's action serves as a testament to us

Muslims. For when we see that Allah is demanding the Prophet to repent, then we ourselves become more obliged to follow suit and do the same.

Let me just clarify something. I think Bassam referred to Daniel 424, correct?

Yeah, the passage doesn't say anything of the sort. And can we have another passage on it? It says 27 in the

Christian Bible, but 24 in Daniel 424. 424, it's not there. 427, 427.

Okay, 427. Okay, very good. Let me just get to the question that was asked about the fear.

Again, when the Bible speaks about the fear of God, it says at the beginning of wisdom, the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the

Lord. And the fear of God in Scripture in the Bible has to do with reverence. The idea of fear in Hebrew has the connotations of fear of the

Almighty, having honor and respect for the Almighty. Which if you remember in an opening statement,

I pointed out that in the Hebrew literature, for instance, when an encounter would take place, where if there was a strong wind, it says that the face of the

Prophet was filled with anxiety. Again, I ask you the question, if there is anxiety because the day of judgment is near, what is there to fear?

What is there to be anxious about? If you say glory, we don't find that. In the

New Testament, we find the opposite. We find that peace I give to you, not like the world gives. Jesus says,

I give my sheep eternal life. They shall never perish. And Paul says that God has made peace with us through Jesus Christ, and there is no fear in his.

Today, I want to thank you, especially for the song. I'm really enjoying it. You know, those gracious people, me and my friend here to my right.

Well, that's really it. Just thank you both of the speakers for presenting their cases and staying in the time boundaries.

And thank you to the audience for excellent questions. And I hope you enjoyed it.

I hope it was a learning experience for all of us. This is how we learn more when we live with you. By exchanging ideas, we learn more about each other, and we end up learning more about our own positions as well.