Matt Slick Live: January 6, 2025

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live.

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live.

If you wanna give me a call, the number, as usual, is 877 -207 -2276.

The last four digits spell C -A -R -M on your phone. You can check that out.

And if you're a newbie, you're not sure what the show's about. I'm a Christian apologist. What that means is

I defend the Christian faith. So I've had to study a multitudinous amount of topics, Christian theology, false religious systems, atheism, evolution,

UFOs, the occult, doctrine, logic, philosophy, just all kinds of stuff.

I enjoy doing that. So we use the expertise and experience to hopefully try and answer questions and just point people to Jesus Christ, the true

Lord. And without him, if you don't have Jesus, you are lost. Islam isn't gonna save you.

And the false god, false prophet, Roman Catholicism isn't gonna save you. It has a false gospel and a false

Mary. Same with Eastern Orthodoxy, not gonna save you. So you need Jesus and what he has and what the

Bible says, nothing else, and no one else. You gotta trust in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, God in flesh who died on the cross, rose from the dead three days later.

He's a man right now in heaven. People don't know that. A lot of people don't know. We're justified before God by faith alone in Christ alone.

And we cannot lose our salvation. Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but you should be baptized.

We're not saved by our compliance with the law or our continued repentance. We are saved by faith in Christ.

And he is the one who's faithful and just to complete the work in us that he has begun,

Philippians 1 .6. Let's get on the phones with Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina.

Hey, buddy, you're on the air. Hey. Hey, man, how you doing? I just wanna say happy new year to you and your family.

Hey, well, thank you. Happy new year to you, too. All right. Thank you. My question is, can a woman be a minister or an evangelist?

We have to define our terms. A minister is also understood to be a pastor. Women are not to be pastors and elders in the church or deacons, actually, according to the scriptures.

And so, no, she couldn't be a minister. No, no. And any church that would call her a minister or a pastor or an elder is in violation of the word of God.

I can go through that and defend that. And I'll just do what I've been doing for 20 years now on the radio, is just say, if anybody wants to debate me on this in a formal public setting, then we can debate, does the

Bible support women pastors and elders? And I've never had anybody take me up on it in 20 years. So that's what the debate would be.

An evangelist, of course, yeah, she could be an evangelist, absolutely. She'd go out there and preach that gospel.

And that doesn't mean preaching in the context of having authority over people in the church, because that's what a pastor and an elder does.

But an evangelist, she can go out and preach and teach in that sense of preaching. You're just presenting the gospel. No problem at all.

And that would be great. Okay. Okay. One question before I leave.

My close friend's mother is a pastor. If I can get her to call you, will you talk to her online?

Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would be glad to talk to any woman on the phone. But I'll tell you, it won't go well for her.

And it's not because I'm an arrogant jerk. It's because when

I say, well, what about this verse? And this says that, and then they get upset with me. It always happens like that because I'm very polite.

Well, yeah, but then the word says this. Well, then I can't talk to you anymore because they can't answer it. And so they don't wanna talk to me.

That's how it goes. Okay, I mean, that's what the Bible says. And men need to step up and do their job, not have women do it.

All right? Okay. Well, thank you very much and take care. Okay, man.

You too, God bless. All right. Well, have a good place. Bye -bye. Bye. All right, that's

Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina. Let's get to this guy named Eric from Salt Lake City.

Hey, Eric, how you doing, buddy? Hey, Matt, doing well. How about yourself? You know me,

I'm always busy. Just always doing stuff. That's right. We're in the candle on both ends.

I have a three -end candle and I'm going for three ends all at once. I'm trying it, you know?

That's right. So for those of you who don't know, this is Eric Johnson. He's a friend of mine. How long have we known each other? 20, 30 years?

I don't know. Something like that, a long time. Yeah. And you're the guy who sets up these trips to the

Bible lands and stuff like that. We visited one a couple of months ago and the footsteps of Paul. It was great.

So I brag to people about I've been to these places and stuff like that. You set them up, but you're calling about another one we're gonna be going on, right?

Yeah, I mean, I know you talked a little bit about it last week, but we're going to Jordan in November. November 3 through 14, 2025, a 12 -day tour.

And what makes this tour special is a guy named Joel Kramer, who is a biblical archeologist.

He has a YouTube channel called Expedition Bible. He started it two and a half years ago.

We begged him and begged him to begin that YouTube station and he did. And he now has 770 ,000 plus subscribers.

So he's like an internet sensation. But anyway, he's a good friend of mine. And for the second time, we are teaming up on a tour to Jordan where Joel is the full -time guy.

We have a second archeologist who will be with us. We're limiting this trip to one bus and it's more than halfway sold.

And Matt, you're gonna go. And so I know that there are some people out there who might like to find out more and they can go to the website 2025jordan .com.

That's one word, 2025jordan .com. And it has all the details. The price is $44 .95.

That includes everything except for the flight out of Chicago, which would be $1 ,300 more.

So it's a really reasonable trip as far as the cost goes. And it is very safe in Jordan. There has been no stoppage of tourism since what happened a couple of years ago in Israel.

They have not stopped. And we'll spend an entire day at Petra. We'll have a chance to,

Joel will be with us and you'll have a chance to go hiking on your own. But we also are gonna be going to other biblical sites like, well,

Peor. We're gonna go there where Jacob wrestles, the angel of the Lord. We're gonna go to Wadi Rum, Jerash was one of the

Decapolis cities. We're gonna go to Sodom and Gomorrah, go to Lot's Cave, just a number of places.

But a lot of the places we go to are not going to be places you would go with unless you had an archeologist with you.

And so that's what makes this trip special. And it's probably, I went in 2023, it's probably the last time that Joel and I will do this trip together because Israel is reopening now too.

So that's kind of what I specialize in, trips to Israel. But this is a really special trip. Well, the trips that I've been on,

I think three or four now, and they've all been great. I mean, you've flown a good trip.

I gotta say, you do, it's been a lot of fun. Well, you know, I'm doing this since 2009.

I've done some 20 trips, taking 700 plus people on different trips.

You went on the Paul trip, that was 19 days, and that was an awesome trip, you're right. I mean, if you've been on my

Israel trip, you've been on my Paul trip. I've only done one other Jordan trip, but those are the three main trips that I do.

And I love this trip because there's very little I have to do, Joel takes care of everything there. And the hotels, four star all the way through, except for one night where we're gonna be in Wadi Rum, that is not a four star because we're sleeping, it's really cool to be where the wise men actually went past through here to get to Bethlehem and very good information that we have there.

So we'll be there riding camels if people wanna do that. But yeah, I mean, I say travel while you can, we know that travel shuts down real quickly and easily, but this trip

I think is one that people should put their mind to and look it up, 2025jordan .com,

it's a November 12 day trip. I don't think anybody on that last trip I took said,

I wish I wouldn't have gone on this, only have had people say, man, that was an incredible trip.

And you're gonna learn your Old Testament. The trip that we took was Acts, that was New Testament, this is

Old Testament. You're gonna be hearing about things that you never heard about before. And we're gonna be looking at a lot of different Old Testament scriptures.

You know, I was talking to somebody online a few days ago and they were telling me, there's this Christian archeology dude and he's really awesome, he's got this, and I'm smiling.

And he says, man, I listen to that guy, he's got all this stuff. And he goes, his name's Joel Kramer. And I'm laughing,

I said, yeah, that's who we're gonna do it. I can't tell you how many people, yeah, how many people come into our center, the

Utah Christian Research Center in Draper, Utah, and they see our archeology. Oh yeah,

I watch this guy and same exact thing. And so yeah, I personally know Joel, you've met

Joel, you've been on a couple of his tours in Israel and you know how good he is.

I invite people to go to YouTube, just type in Expedition Bible, Joel Kramer, you'll get his station, he has over 40 videos on there.

And there's some from Jordan, you can actually watch those. And it's just gonna be amazing. But I have to say that if you're gonna go on this trip, you gotta be in walking shape, good walking shape, because we are gonna be walking on tells.

Last time we were on Gomorrah and there were bones we saw in a burial cave up there.

I mean, it's amazing. But we're gonna be at places where people don't normally go, for a lot of the places.

And I just, you have to be in good shape to be able to go walking up tells, which are artificial mounds where cities were.

And just the things that Joel's gonna be teaching us, it is truly amazing. So probably you would want a small backpack or something with a bottle of water.

And you need a hat, maybe a cane, that kind of stuff, and be able to walk, what, five miles average a day? Yeah, something like that.

But I'm gonna tell you, it's not gonna be that hot, because it's November. It's actually one of the best times to go traveling. The rain is very little, minimal, and it's not gonna be hot at all.

And the thing is, I'll be giving information out over the course of the year to those who are traveling and telling them what they should bring and things that Joel will want them to know.

And I'll have a book that I will send out that will be helpful to you. I'll also have a few articles for people to read.

But yeah, we're gonna try to prepare you as best we can. But I just wanted to encourage your listeners, because here's a chance not only to go with Joel Cramer, but to go with Matt Flick.

And to eat lunch and dinner with Matt Flick is gonna be your opportunity. So you already have. No, you want them to go.

I thought you wanted them to go. You do want them. You already have more than half a dozen people who have already signed up.

And we have limited room, I need to say that. We believe this trip is gonna be sold out in the next four to five weeks.

So if your people wanna do this, it is not gonna be a next time with me either. So if they wanna go, they should look at this seriously.

They can email me. My email is on that website, 2025jordan .com.

I'm just really encouraging more of your people to come and love to have them. Oh yeah.

But should we fly from Chicago to Amman, Jordan, straight in, we don't go to Istanbul like we did before, right? No, we straight on.

And that's why we're going out of Chicago. So you'll have to meet us in Chicago for the group flight. The flight is actually really reasonable.

It's 1 ,300. And if we bring 40 people, we'll take $100 off. It'll be $1 ,200. You're not gonna be able to find a flight direct from Chicago to Amman for $1 ,200.

We have, I think, the best price you're gonna get for that. Yeah, we didn't wanna go. Could have gone through Istanbul.

That was originally we were looking at. And I said, man, no, I don't wanna do that.

I wanna fly direct. And so they looked it up. We're going Royal Jordanian. And it's a good airline, solid airline.

We'll go straight to Amman, and then back again, Amman to Chicago. Let me ask you one more thing before the break here.

People wanna know, is it safe over there? Because aren't they just really tough people? No, you know what?

You were in Turkey. I would compare it to Turkey. Were you scared in Turkey at all? Not at all.

It was fun. The people were great. Yeah, so it's the same kind of feel. It's not as nice of a country, if you wanna say that, as Israel, or Italy, maybe.

But it is a solid country. We're not gonna be in any danger. No problems. I've been to Jordan twice, so not a problem.

Well, thanks a lot. I'll keep plugging it. All right, thanks for having me, Matt. God bless you, my friend.

God bless, Eric. We'll see you. Hey, everybody. We'll be right back after these messages. 877 -207 -2276.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick Live!

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show. If you wanna give me a call, we have wide open lines. 877 -207 -2276.

Now, I had a discussion with somebody, an interesting discussion a couple of nights ago, and I wanna talk about it a little bit.

Not a big deal, just interesting stuff. Now, I know, as I'm thinking about this, I know that I step on a lot of toes, and basically,

I don't care. I wanna teach what the word of God says, and I want to present the word of truth as best as I can.

It doesn't mean I always do it perfectly, but I wanna trust in what the Lord Jesus has revealed through his apostles and prophets.

And so, what I'll do is point fingers and say, well, no, Catholicism teaches a false gospel, as does

Eastern Orthodoxy, Mormonism's a non -Christian cult, as is the Jehovah's Witness organization, and things like that, and I'll do that, because those things are true.

Well, I had this discussion a couple of nights ago, and it was really interesting, because one of the things

I deal with with Roman Catholics is their idea of venerating Mary, Mary and the saints, they venerate, they don't worship.

And it's interesting that they use the word, so there was a discussion, and this guy, he's a

Roman Catholic, was polite, it was a really nice, polite discussion, and we started having a discussion, and I said, you know what, tell you what, one of the things

I wanna do is work on an article on veneration versus worship, and stuff like that.

Maybe you could help me do some research on it right now. And he actually goes, okay.

And so, for 20 minutes, 20 minutes or so, we did this until he didn't want to do it anymore.

And so we defined our terms. He went to Oxford Dictionary, you know, and what venerate means, and what worship means, we discussed that.

And then we did, oh, he was Eastern Orthodox, that's right, Eastern Orthodox, sorry about that. Not Catholic, but very similar.

And so he went to orthodoxwiki .org, and looked it up there, and we got talking. And what really became interesting is when we discussed the issue of what it means to practice veneration.

What is it really? What is veneration really? In a physical sense.

And so what I did was, I said, let's talk about the physical aspects of this, okay?

Because I think it'd be really interesting. When you venerate, he said, well, it includes prostration, bowing one's head.

And I said, well, how about kissing an object? He said, yes, you know, you could do that.

Praying in front of this object. Okay, so I said, now let's look at worship, and it's the same thing.

It was about that time, he didn't wanna really continue anymore, because, well, you know, people are in here, they wanna have other discussions, and I thought it was interesting.

And so I'm gonna be working on this article a little at a time. I did some other research on this afterward.

And locations of worship in an altar. Do they do that in churches?

Eastern Orthodox in their Catholic churches? But they have altars in their churches that they bow down before these images?

Yes. Now, in the Bible, worship on a holy hill. And so it doesn't really apply to the

Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Holy mountain, but doesn't the

Lord's house? So you could say, yeah, in their churches, respectively. And also, worship was at the doorway of the gate.

I found that out, interesting. And adoration, it was really interesting.

This guy said, it can be to anyone or anything. You can adore anyone or anything.

But worship is only for God. And that's where they like to draw the difference.

Well, when you adore somebody, it's not worshiping them, so you can adore, have adoration for anyone or any object.

Okay, so that includes prostrating before, bowing your head, kissing the object, praying in front of it, right?

Just like it says in the Bible, the men bowed down and worshiped. They fell down before the

Lord, they worshiped, fell to the ground and worshiped, faces to the ground and they worshiped.

And I said, isn't that the same thing for adoration? And he said, well, it's the attitude of the heart.

I said, well, but everything's the same. Okay, we need to move on.

So it was an interesting discussion. And I'm gonna be doing some more research because I know in the

Roman Catholic Church that this is relevant. You see, in the

Old Testament, blood sacrifices in the Old Testament, sacrifices of praise in the

New Testament, all right? And there were sacrifices and offerings in Isaiah offered to God.

And in the New Testament, we offer a living and holy sacrifice in Romans 12 .1, just doing some references.

In Catholicism, what I found was interesting in the Fatima apparitions, what the

Roman Catholic Church says is really Mary. In there, the apparition talks about offering sacrifices to the apparition.

So I'm gonna be documenting that. I have a document already, I'll put it in this article. Ooh, now what's interesting is, can

I find anything like that in Eastern Orthodoxy? And if I can, where a sacrifice is offered to,

I'm gonna say Mary, whatever they call it, oh man, that's gonna be good, that'd be vital. And so anyway, it was interesting, it was interesting.

And in the Bible, the idols were made of gold and silver. And when I went into the

Catholic Church, particularly in Thessalonica, Corinth and stuff like that, we'd go in Greece a couple months ago, went into the

Catholic, I mean, not the Catholic, but the Eastern Orthodox Churches, they had, let's just say,

I'm gonna call them idols or icons, but they had these things, you know. They were gold and silver.

And I'm like, man, you know, this is not good. So I've enjoyed this kind of research and I'm gonna continue in it.

And they were falling down before the images in Isaiah 44, bowing down before silver and gold images in Isaiah 46.

So I'm gonna be doing comparison writing this article because they're committing idolatry in the

EO and the RC. They are committing idolatry, but they just say it's not.

Hey, let's get to John from Idaho. John, welcome, you're on the air. Hi, Matt, how you doing today?

I'm hanging in there, buddy, how are you doing? You're doing great. And yeah, just had a question for you and regarding to eternal salvation.

I remember a scripture in the Bible just talking about being lukewarm. If those are lukewarm, like they'll be spat out.

I guess that's in Revelation. With that, I just, growing up. Yeah, because growing up,

I was always told that whenever you gave your life to Christ, that your name would be written in the eternal book of life and it could never be erased unless the impartable sin was committed,

I guess, of blaspheming the Holy Spirit in that way. So my question would be just a more. Whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, no, no, Christians cannot commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They're regenerate, they're saved. Christ has paid for all of their sins.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not something that's atoned for, cannot be forgiven in this age or the age to come. Matthew 12, 30 through 32, cannot be forgiven.

So if a Christian is forgiven, he's forgiven because all of his sins are forgiven. It would not make sense to say a person is forgiven and they will commit that in the future and that sin can't be forgiven so then you'd have someone who's saved without all their sins being forgiven.

Then you have to change the theology and say, well, all the sins up to that point. Then you maintain your salvation by the repentance.

Then you get in the works of righteousness. There's a problem there. Hey, I did a little sidetrack for you there, but hold on, man, we got a break coming up.

We'll get back to what you got right after the break. So hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages and if you want to call me, the number's 877 -207 -2276.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live!

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy. 877 -207 -2276.

Let's get back on the air with John. Hey, John, welcome, man. You there? Thanks, Matt.

Yeah, thank you for also clarifying too on that, what the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the spirit in that way, because it's really good to know that as a

Christian, that cannot be committed. Really good to get that good assurance. But I guess for my main question, it was regarding that book of life, the name of the book of life and being lukewarm.

I just find it a little interesting when that verse in Revelations talks about those who are lukewarm will be spat out.

I wonder if that, it almost makes it seem that in my head, like losing out on eternal salvation in heaven, like for people who are saved and give their life to Christ, but then later on in their life, they just tend to stray away, like maybe

King Solomon in the Old Testament just starting off great in the Lord, but then later on. That's a different issue.

That's a different issue with different covenant requirements and things. So you're talking about Revelation 3 .16,

and it's lukewarm or not. Now, that's out of Laodicea, which

I've been to Laodicea twice, and it's a great place to visit. Archeologically, it's great. A lot of things to walk around and see.

It's a big area and love it. But what you have to understand is that there were refreshing streams and therapeutic, warm, hot spring kind of areas.

And when they would mix, they're not good for either one. And so what John is doing is simply using something that you're familiar with.

Lukewarm, eh, it's not therapeutic like hot water would be. It's not refreshing like cold water would be.

You're basically useless. And he's just using something that is familiar to the people of the time.

Look, you need to be real about your faith, not just haphazard, not lazy about it.

If you're on fire for Christ, be on fire for Christ. Live for Jesus or don't. And if you're just in the middle, get spit out.

So the idea here is that a real Christian isn't apathetic about his faith or her faith.

So if anybody out there is apathetic, they're kind of whatever, you know, it doesn't really matter. You're lukewarm, get spit out.

And maybe it's because you're not saved to begin with. And this is something that people have to assess. Just because you've gone up forward sometime at a church doesn't mean you're saved.

It might mean you're saved. I'm just saying, you can't just put your faith and hope in that. You have to examine yourself. And I ask this, you know,

I tell this to everybody. Do you love the Lord Jesus Christ? Are you living for him? It doesn't mean perfectly.

It doesn't mean you're perfect and everything, but it means is he the reason you're doing stuff or eh, whatever about my faith.

I don't really, you know, it's whatever. Just leave people alone. I don't really care about that much. I go and I feel like it. You're lukewarm,

I'm not gonna help any, whatever. That's lukewarmness. That's a sign that you're not saved. It's a sign, it doesn't mean you're not, but it means that it's something to take a look, we can get into more, but that's basically what's going on there, okay?

Okay, so kind of like, is that like faith through action then? Is it what, faith through action?

Yeah, kind of just like actively seeking God first. So in that way, just moving forward instead of being stagnant and apathetic in that sense.

Yeah, yeah, see, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, Matthew 12, 34. What's in your heart is what leads you to do.

The hand moves because of the heart. So if you're apathetic about God, and you don't care about the things of God, but you claim to be a

Christian, something's wrong. If you really are a Christian, God may discipline you. And one of the ways he does that, to wake you up, is to strip you of things.

And your health, your finances, your home, your car, and then you, and now I'm serious, now

I'll cry out to God because now I need him. And I say to people, if you're lukewarm, and if you really belong to him, get ready.

He may wake you up. And waking you up is by slapping you upside the head sometimes, because he disciplines those whom he loves.

Oh yeah, well you know, people say, you know, the blonde -haired, blue -eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus, he has a wonderful plan for your life.

Just trust in him, your life will get better. Who said, that's not in the Bible, that's in the book of Second Hysterectomy.

You know, it's just not true. And I'm not saying it's not gonna be good, it's gonna be bad, it's just, being a

Christian is serious business, and sometimes it's difficult. It's always good, but sometimes it's just not easy.

And sometimes a wonderful plan for your life means you got some challenges to go through, and some self -improvement to undergo.

That's a purification of your faith to experience. That's just part of what it means. And if people aren't ready for that, then don't call yourself a

Christian. Live for him, or don't. Don't be lukewarm, he'll spit you out on that day of judgment.

So decide for yourself. Are you following Christ, or are you following the deeds and the necessities of your own flesh?

Follow him, and he'll take care of you. That's right, that's what's going on there, okay? All right.

Thank you, Matt, I appreciate you for laying that out, because, yeah, just growing up in life, I was great being saved and being on fire for the

Lord, but then somehow things, I guess, I just got apathetic going to church, almost just more for the social scene instead of actually seeking

God first. And so that's why I wondered about that, being spit out, if that meant being on fire and being saved genuinely in that way, but then just straying away and not being actively used for the

Lord, because I'm not actively seeking him. Well, here's another thing about this. I don't want people to just be panicking.

The thing is, we can all get in those positions and be real, true Christians. Sometimes we just get tired.

And I've talked about this on the radio. Sometimes you're walking with the Lord, you're doing this, you're doing that, and sometimes you just need a break.

I'm not saying you give up on God, I'm just saying sometimes you just say, oh, man, so much has been happening,

I just need to relax a little bit, and that's fine. We all have vacations from work. I'm not saying vacations from God, but when someone tells me that they were on fire for God, but now they're just kind of not as much, well, it's like marriage.

Being in love is the motor that starts the engine of marriage. And then after a while, you love your spouse, but it's not that googly feeling anymore.

But you're going through the motions a lot of times. And a lot of times you feel it, a lot of times you don't feel it. It doesn't mean you're not married, any more than it doesn't mean you're not

Christian. But I'm just saying that if that's all it is, for years or for a long, long time, then you gotta be really careful.

And wonder, because God may slap you upside the head to get you back on track, which is fine. And sometimes just a little slap, you know.

Get in a car accident or you get sick and end up in the hospital for a week. You know, something like that. Who knows, or just conviction.

So just decide to follow him, just decide to be a little bit more fervent about him and ask him, Lord, just waken my heart up a little more,

Lord, because I'm tired or whatever it might be. And just say, yeah, I just need you, that's all.

Okay? Thank you, Matt. All right, man.

Well, God bless. God bless you, too. Have a good one. Okay, you too.

Hey, folks, before we get to the next caller, Catherine from Canada. We got a break coming up here in a minute.

I just want you to know that walking with Christ is a serious thing and you need to take it seriously.

And it doesn't mean, though, that you can't have times where it's just, it's just lots going on and you don't feel the warmth, the googly's that you did in your early relationship with Christ.

It doesn't mean you're not saved. It doesn't mean you're in sin. What it can mean sometimes is that God lets you go through these things to purify your faith.

Sometimes he does that. Sometimes he just lets you not feel his presence and you don't feel all that sometimes.

I know I had that happen to me for a few years. And it purifies your faith because you realize, what am

I really trusting in? Is it my feelings or him? And you make a decision, you make a decision.

And you go to church because that's where the fellowship is, that's where the preaching of the word is.

It's not like you have to go every single Sunday and if you don't, you miss it. You know, it's a mortal sin, lame

Catholicism teaches, you know, if you don't go to Mass, it's a mortal sin, all this legalistic crud, no, no, no.

The idea, God wants you to have fellowship and relationship with him. And if you're in that place where it feels dry, you don't feel that empowering, that closeness, well, okay,

I would just suggest you journal about it. And just write down today's date.

You know, just feeling apathetic about my Lord. Doesn't mean I don't believe in him, but you know, I'm gonna pray that God would wake my heart up and that I'd have a fervor for him more, whatever that might take,

Lord. And that's it, and you just do that occasionally as you pray and just seek him.

And sometimes what he'll do is he'll wait for a while because he wants you to learn something. And sometimes it just gets wakened up and sometimes you just never know what you'll be expected to do in his presence.

You know, it might be to help somebody change a tire. It might be to buy someone else groceries.

It might be to just do whatever. And you just feel that presence of God in the completion of what he's called you to do in the middle of an oasis, in the middle of a desert where you're not feeling him.

There's that little oasis of an event. Those kinds of things are how God works a lot of times in our lives.

Those kinds of things are those little pats on the back and those statements that he says, I've not left you.

You see, God, he works. He works by experience. We experience him and we experience others.

We are meant to fellowship with him on the vertical and with each other on the horizontal. And when we don't feel the vertical so much, then a lot of times we turn our attention on the horizontal and we seek to glorify him, how we help others.

Because sometimes that's what he wants us to do. We don't live by feelings. We live by faith, habit of two -four.

The just shall live by faith. Sometimes it means just believing and choosing to believe when sometimes you don't feel like it and then you act accordingly.

All right, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy. 877 -207 -2276.

We have two open lines. Let's give me a call. Let's get to Catherine from Canada. Thanks for waiting. You are on the air. Hi, Matt.

How is everything? It's going okay. You hanging in there? I get the privilege of doing radio and helping people.

So it's going well. Okay, yeah, I was just wondering about these two verses and how to reconcile them.

I looked up the Greek verbs and everything and the nouns are the same, like temptation.

I'm talking about Matthew chapter four, verse one, where it says, Jesus was led into the desert by the spirit to be tempted of the devil.

And then in the Lord's prayer, he says, lead us not into temptation in Matthew 6, 13.

And they're pretty much the same, except I guess the verbs, one is maybe bringing into and the other is be led into.

So those are a little bit different, but it sounds like they're essentially the same. And if they are, does that mean that it's because Jesus is an exception because he took all our temptations?

Like with Hebrews 2 .18, it talks about, and 4 .15 talks about Jesus being tempted so that we wouldn't have to be.

So I just wanted to reconcile those two verses, like Matthew 4 .1 and Matthew 6 .13.

Yes. So Matthew 4 .1, to be tempted by the devil is the Greek word paristhenai.

And lead us not in temptations is, what, where is that? Come on, look at that.

There we go. It's just a, it's a form of that. Yeah, it's from Parismos. So, yeah, it's -

Parat, what is it? Parat, I forget. I just looked it up. Yeah, it's paristhenai, paristhenai, okay.

And so, yeah, it's the same word. It's a slightly different number in Strong's Concordance, which means they're cognates of each other.

Tempted, to tempt or temptation, one's a verb, one is a noun. So Jesus led up to be tempted by the devil.

The devil tempted him. And so it was, apparently it was necessary for him to do this to show victory over the temptations that the evil one has.

When it's, when Jesus is talking, he's asking that we not be led into temptation at all.

It's just a, it's a will, it's a desire. Please don't let us be tempted. We don't wanna be tempted.

But it doesn't mean that Christ can't have been because of who he was and what the devil wanted to do in order for Christ to show that even in the fleshly state of his existence, he could successfully resist the devil.

And he did that. And he's our example. And so in the prayer of Matthew 6, don't lead us into temptation, deliver us from evil.

It's just a statement that we need to be guarded and that we're asking God's will to do that. But sometimes

God will allow certain things to occur to us. We know that. We know that we might be tempted to skimp or cut corners or whatever it is.

It's a temptation in our own heart. And so we have to work through that.

So one is just like in Matthew 6, our father who art in heaven, lead us not into temptation.

One is that one is just dealing with a general deliverance from things of temptations because we're weak.

But when Jesus was tempted, he was tempted by the devil and God the father permitted it because it was necessary.

But he was led into, like the spirit did lead him into temptation basically. No, led him into a place to be tempted.

Didn't lead him into temptation. Let me explain something. Let me explain something.

There's what's, I'm gonna explain a little bit of technical stuff here. It's called efficient cause and proximate cause.

And these are, it's a good time to introduce this concept. So Adam was in the garden and he is the one who is responsible for his own sin.

No one forced him, he did it of his own will. And that he is then called the efficient cause of his sin.

Now, the proximate cause of Adam's sin is God. But when we say proximate, we're talking about the condition in which the efficient cause occurs.

So the condition of Adam's sin was the garden in which

God put two trees, in which God said, don't eat the fruit, in which God put Adam and Eve, in which

God said he let the devil come in. So God is letting these things happen.

So the condition is called the proximate cause or the proximate condition of this.

But God's not the one who caused him to fall, but he is the cause of the conditions in which

Adam freely chose to rebel. So Adam is the efficient cause of his sin where God's the proximate cause, but culpability is only in the efficient cause, not in the proximate cause.

So this is the kind of thing we would look at here. The spirit led him into the wilderness would be a proximate condition in that the spirit knows and led him out there.

And this is the condition in which certain events are going to occur, but it's the devil who tempted him of his own will.

It was not led to temptation that God did not tempt anybody because we know from James, I think it's

James 1, I think it's James 1 .13. Let me see if that's right. Yeah, I was reading that too. Yeah, where it's, yeah.

About it's our own lust that draws us towards it. Right, so God, now this is heavy theology at this point.

And this is the kind of stuff I discuss online a lot with people. So God can certainly allow us to be tempted and even lead us into a place to be tempted, but he's not the one who's tempting us.

Because sometimes in the desert, we go through things where we have to face certain things and nothing can occur unless God has ordained it.

And what we mean by that is nothing can occur unless God has worked it within his sovereign will,

Ephesians 1 .11, he works all things after the counsel of his will. So being led by the spirit into the desert to be tempted by the evil one was worked after the counsel of God's will, but it's in a proximate condition, not an efficient cause.

And that's how we differentiate. And that's how we understand culpability, responsibility, and conditional responsibility, and things like that.

So I'm not sure if that helps, and I could go deeper into it, but that's how we deal with these. No, that helps a lot, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it is a different topic, but I was also, I know you're post -trip, and I was also telling my

Bible study ladies, we were talking about this issue because we're going through Revelation. And I was bringing up one thing you said about how you were reading how the part where the flood took all the wicked away, and how the wicked are taken first.

And I was trying to explain that, but it just kind of fell flat. I couldn't, they were like, no way, it's the good people who are taken first.

And they all, I was trying to explain it, but I couldn't quite do it. Well, here, if you've got a pencil and paper,

I'll tell you where to go to look, okay? And if you want, and you go to your Bible study, you call me up, and I'll come in on a cell phone.

We can put on speaker, and I'll answer questions. I'll show it to them. Really? Wow. That would be cool.

Yeah, no problem at all. Oh, yeah, it's no problem at all. And I can do that, and so no problem.

And I get down there in Salt Lake every now and then. I'm in the mood to get down there again soon, just cause, but I need a reason.

But anyway, so it's Matthew 24. I'm in Salt Lake. I'm in the, but, or you're talking about online anyway.

Yeah, I go down there. I have friends down there. But yeah, you know, go to Sandy, and stay with people in Sandy, Utah, and stuff like that.

But anyway, here are the verses you need to go to. Matthew 24, 37.

Okay. Through 41, all right? Okay. Then you want to go to Luke 17, 26.

Through 37, 26 through 37, all right? Okay. And read those, and say, who are the ones who were taken?

And just read it over and over again, okay? Cause they're gonna go, no, they're good to take it. Nope, it's not. And just keep reading it, and they'll get it, okay?

And then you go to Matthew 13, 30. And you want to read, actually, you want to do the tares and the wheat.

So Matthew 13, 24, through 30. And then you want to go to where Jesus interprets it.

And that's Matthew, it's just a few verses later in the same chapter. Matthew 13, 36.

Yeah, that's probably the one I missed. That's all right. Yeah. And so Matthew 24, 36.

I mean, Matthew 24, 37, and Luke 17, 26 and following. It's obvious the ones who were taken are the wicked.

And when I show people this, I go side by side, and I read it to them. 100 % of the time, they go, yeah, you're right.

100%. Okay, I'm going to type those all up, and then just pass them out, and we can talk about it for our

Bible study. I'll just type them up and parallel them or something, because, I don't know, something like that.

But this really messes with people. I need to understand it so that I can explain it better, too. Yeah, and this really messes with people, because they're taught a certain kind of a flow of things through all their churches.

And what gets me so just raveled is unraveled,

I should say, is that they can't even get it right on who's taken. It's the wicked who are taken first. And if they can't get that right, how can you trust them to get other stuff when it's so clear?

When you read Matthew 24, 37, and Luke 17, 26, and you just go parallel.

Left, right, left, right. Look at it and go, it's the wicked who were taken. It's obvious, okay? And they even ask you just where they're taken, and he answers the question.

Where the body is, the vultures gather. And that's the end of Luke 17. Yeah, that one's kind of obscure, sort of, the part about the vultures.

Like, it's not, I don't know, it doesn't. That's where they're taken. Keep figuring out. The one that I always rely on.

If it's the rapture, does it make sense? If it's the rapture, does it make sense? You don't go to heaven if they're taken where the body is, the vultures gather.

That's where they're taken, according to what Jesus answered. It can't be the rapture. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Also, well, the main reason I'm post -trib is because of Revelation 10, seven, and 1

Corinthians, I think it is, 15, 51, and 52. They match up, those two match up so well, but the last trumpet, and the mystery, right?

And also, in Matthew 24, it says, right around, where is that, Matthew 24? It says, after the tribulation of those days, the trumpet will sound, and the gathered people will sound, after the tribulation.

It says it. Yeah, but when you do this with people, you're tipping over what they've been brought up on.

Oh, this has to be true, it's all pre -trib, we're getting out. And then I show it to them, oh, they don't like it. Yeah, convoluted, and there's two comings of Jesus, and I don't know, it doesn't make sense.

That's right. Yeah, I teach what's called deprescatology. So I could come down there sometime and do a little teaching at a church, or at a

Bible study, just for fun. I would do it on eschatology, and I guarantee it'll be two to four hours, people would go, wait a minute, what about this?

And then just go and take a look at it. And it's a lot of fun, so, okay. But most people don't wanna do that.

They go, nope, I like where I'm at, I don't wanna be challenged, done. Stay away from that slick guy. All right, okay.

Okay, I will look all those verses up and figure them out. All right, sounds good.

Thank you so much. You're welcome so much. Thank you, you too. All right. Bye.

All right, okay. Well, we have two other callers waiting. We have Sari Scott from Spokane for 20 minutes, and Mark from Salt Lake, I mean, for nine minutes.

We're out of time, the music's in like 20 seconds into the show, so I'm sorry about that.

You have to call back tomorrow, and we can discuss those issues. Daniel's Prophecy, Antichrist, and Zechariah 6, if you want, give me a call tomorrow,

Lord willing, and we'll get on the air together, and we can talk about it, okay? So I hope everybody has a good time, and by the way, you know, for that trip that we're gonna go on to Jordan to see

Saba, Gomorrah, and Petra, and other stuff right out of the Bible, then just go to 2025jordan .com,

and all the information's right there, 2025jordan .com. Hey, there's the music. I'm outta here.

May the Lord bless you, and by His grace, we'll be back on here tomorrow. We'll talk to you then. Goodbye, God bless.