The Case for Heaven and Life After Death with Lee Strobel - GotQuestions.org Podcast Episode 47

Lee Strobel’s Near-Death Experience and the Motivation for The Case for Heaven

On today's episode we have a very special guest, Lee Strobel, he's the author of A Case for Christ, A Case for Faith, and a new book, The Case for Heaven, which I've been looking forward to for a while.

It's a different topic than his previous books, but the same journalistic style. So Lee, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks. Appreciate you having me.

So Lee, what led you to write The Case for Heaven?

Well several years ago, I almost died. My wife found me unconscious on the bedroom floor, she called the paramedics. I woke up in the emergency room and a doctor looked down at me and said, you're one step away from a coma, two steps away from dying.

And so I lingered, sort of hovering over that fuzzy border between life and death for quite a while until doctors were able to save my life. I had an unusual condition called hyponatremia, which is a severe drop in my blood sodium.

Level.

And I lost a kidney as part of it. And it's a very tricky illness in the sense that they have to raise your blood sodium very, very carefully or you'll end up disabled mentally or physically. And so it was a touch and go situation.

I found it to be very clarifying. I don't know if you've ever come close to dying, but it's a clarifying experience. You begin to really wonder with great curiosity what really does happen when we close our eyes for the last time in this world.

Are we cast into oblivion? Are we reincarnated? Are we in the presence of God? Do we end up in hell? I was a Christian at the time, so I believe what the Bible taught, but I'm also, you know, got a skeptical gear.

And I wanted to be sure that the Bible's teachings on the afterlife really stood up to modern science, philosophy, history, and theology and so forth. And so that's what kind of was the seed that eventually resulted in the new book, The Case.

For Heaven.

Common Misconceptions About Heaven

So in your research and writing this book, what are some of the most popular or most common misconceptions about heaven that you ran across?

Well, I think people often depict heaven as being an ethereal place where we're disembodied souls that sort of float among the clouds and play harps all day and sing hymns and, you know, this non-physical kind of situation.

And actually, you know, the Bible in Revelation does not say that God said, I'm going to create all new things. In other words, I'm going to wipe everything out and create this ethereal world. He said, I'm going to make all things new and we'll have a new heavens and a new earth.

And so this is a very physical heaven. It is a place where we will resemble the present earth, but without the effects of sin. It will be a place, I believe, that will be theocentric, where we focus on God, but also very relational in terms of other people.

There'll be mountains and streams and animals. And Isaiah and Revelation both talk about that. And so I think it'd be very physical. There'll be festivals, there'll be parties, there'll be banquets. And in heaven, I mean, a lot of people don't realize this, but in heaven every year, the Chicago Cubs win the World Series.

Don't have to go a century in between wins with the Cubs anymore.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah.

They're on a great clockwork. Every century they read at this point.

I have some friends who were Cubs fans too. I was not a Cubs fan myself, but I was celebrating along with them when the Cubs won the World.

Series a few years ago.

That was a long time in between.

You know, when I was a toddler, Ernie Banks, Mr. Cub, was a rookie shortstop at the time. And my parents took me to a banquet where he was speaking. And I fell down before the speeches began during the dinner, fell down behind his chair, and he picked me up and put me in his lap.

And at the end, he kissed me on the cheek. So I was kissed by Mr. Cub, Ernie Banks.

So I have to be a Cubs fan.

It's like expected of me.

Evidence for Heaven Outside the Bible

Absolutely. So besides events like that and what you've discovered in your research, what would you say are evidences for heaven outside the Bible? And I don't like asking questions like that because I just want to make sure our listeners know what the Bible says is plenty enough for me.

But a lot of people are not of that perspective or find other evidences outside the Bible to supplement what the Bible says is very helpful. So in your research, what did you come across?

That's a very good caveat to throw in there because I don't base my theology on evidence.

Outside the Bible.

We have compelling evidence, both in Scripture and outside Scripture, that Jesus not only claimed to be the Son of God, but proved it by returning from the dead. And so what he says about heaven is definitive.

And so that's what I look for in terms of understanding heaven. But, you know, you're right. It does, I think, encourage our faith and deepen our faith when we see that, for instance, neuroscience and other disciplines are supportive of what the Bible's teachings about the afterlife.

Are like.

So it's important to understand that there are actually two phases to the afterlife. The Apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Jesus told the repentant criminal on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise.

So that suggests that there's a first phase of heaven, a present heaven, a intermediate state in which when we die physically, our spirit, our soul separates from our physical body and continues to be conscious either in the presence of God in paradise or separated from God in Hades.

At the end of history, when Jesus returns, that is when we are united with our resurrected bodies. We go through final judgment and then we spend eternity in a very physical place, either heaven or hell.

So the question becomes then, well, how do we know that our spirit, our soul, our consciousness does survive our death? And that's when I probe the area of near-death experiences. Now, I was a skeptic about near-death experiences.

I thought they could be explained away by, you know, oxygen deprivation or hallucinations, a dying brain, last gasps or something like that. Well, it's just not, that's just not a good explanation. The Lancet, which is the prestigious British medical journal, carried an article saying that none of the common explanations for near-death experiences hold water.

And they all fail to explain all the dimensions of what occurs in a typical near-death experience. So, in fact, there have been about 900 scientific studies of near-death experiences published in scientific and medical journals over the last 40 years.

So it's a very well-researched area of science. And what we find is that we have corroboration that indeed our spirit, our soul, our consciousness does survive at least our clinical death. This is not the permanent irrevocable death that the Bible talks about, but it's clinical.

Death.

It's we're declared dead. There's no brainwaves. There's no heartbeat. There's no breathing and so forth. And by corroboration, what I mean is that people who have that out-of-body experience, where their consciousness separates from their clinically dead body, often will see things or hear things that are impossible for them to see or hear if they had not had this experience of their consciousness separating from their body.

So, for instance, there was a heart attack victim by the name of Maria who's declared.

Dead.

And yet she describes how her spirit separated from her body in the hospital. It floated out of the hospital. And when it was returned to her body and she was reanimated, she said, by the way, on the roof of the hospital in the third story landing, there's a shoe and it's a man's tennis shoe.

It's left footed. It's dark blue. There's some wear over the little toe and the shoelaces tucked under the heel. And they went up and checked and sure enough, they found it exactly as she had said. So this suggests that this is corroboration, that there is some experience.

And, you know, one guy, one researcher studied over 90 cases where people with out-of-body experiences made verifiable observations. And it was like 92 or 93 of them, their reports were 100 accurate.

Another 6 were almost exactly accurate. So it's an incredibly powerful statistic. You look at one guy who studied 21 blind people, half of them blind since birth. And yet they could see during their near-death experiences.

There was a woman named Vicky who was in a coma from a car accident and clinically dead. And yet she described later how she was conscious the whole time. She watched the resuscitation efforts. She saw people and plants and birds for the first time.

And yet when her spirit returned to her body and was reanimated, she lost her sight again. And one medical researcher said, this is medically impossible. So we have many, and I document in my book, The Case for Heaven, many examples of this kind of corroboration.

Now, you did point out quite accurately that we shouldn't depend on these things for our theology about the afterlife. But it's interesting that John Burke, who was a Christian pastor in Austin, Texas, and actually a friend of mine for the last 30 years, we were pastors together in a church many, many years ago, studied a thousand near-death experiences over 35 years.

And his conclusion is if you look at the core, the common core of near-death experiences, and you look at what actually happens, not how people interpret it, but how it actually, what actually happens, it's consistent with Christian theology.

So that's another form of corroboration.

It's fascinating. I've heard many accounts, even from a couple of friends who had like out-of-body near-death experiences.

Really?

I've never experienced one myself. And for that, I'm grateful that I've never been that near death, but no.

Yeah.

I didn't have one when I was close to death. I didn't have that. What I would say would be hallucinations, because hyponatremia causes your brain cells to take in moisture, and so your brain expands in your skull, and hallucinations are a product of that experience.

So I had hallucinations, but that's not a near-death experience. So I can't speak personally of it, but as I say, it's a well-studied phenomenon.

Mm-hmm. So here's an interesting question related to that, but also to transition to a new topic you talk about a lot in The Case for Heaven. I've always found it interesting that I very rarely do it when I hear about a near-death experience.

Does that involve them potentially not going to heaven? Everyone's near-death experience, or almost everyone's, is a pleasant experience. They're ascending into heaven before their body is brought back down.

So why do you think that is, if it matches Christian theology? Because obviously we don't believe, sadly, that everyone is going to heaven, so why do the vast majority of near-death experiences involve someone going to heaven per se?

Why Most Near-Death Experiences Seem Pleasant

Yeah, that's a great question, and I think there are several ways to look at that. Number one, keep in mind, these people are not irrevocably dead. The Bible says you are appointed once to die, and then the judgment.

They're not dead in that sense. They are clinically dead. They're not breathing, there are zero brain waves, zero heart activity, and so forth. So they're clinically dead, but they're not irrevocably dead.

How do we know? Because they do return to their body. So that's why I believe they don't go through a judgment, and that's why in some cases where people who are about 23%, according to one study, and actually higher in Europe, have horrible experiences, have hellish experiences.

You look at the case of, for instance, Sam Storm. Sam was an atheist. He was a professor of art at a secular university, head of the chairman of the department. He died in the hospital, and yet his spirit continued on.

He had a spirit body, and he was beckoned by some real friendly folks to follow him down the hospital corridor, and so he did. And they kept walking and walking and walking, and then these people accompanying him became abusive and began to hit him and bite him and attack him and claw at him.

And he said, I was reduced to roadkill. His ears were ripped off. One eye was destroyed. And he said, there's no horror movie that can depict how horrific this attack was. And he called out to Jesus in the middle of that, even as an atheist.

And Jesus came and rescued him from this. This was so powerful of an experience. When he was revived, he not only renounced his atheism, he not only became a Christian, he resigned his tenured professorship at the university, became an ordained minister, and to this day is the pastor of a tiny little church in rural Oklahoma.

So this idea of Jesus rescuing you post-mortem, that doesn't sound very biblical. And yet he wasn't irreversibly dead at the time when he would face the judgment. So I think that's kind of the way that I put it together.

Yeah, near-death experiences are fascinating. And I like really how you put it both here and in the book that they can be corroborated, however you say that, with evidence of what the Bible already says.

So just kind of using it as a little bit of transition. In your book, you do talk quite a bit about hell, about the eternal destiny we want to avoid through Christ. But how does our view of hell impact our view of heaven?

Hell, Annihilationism, and Universalism

Well, I felt like I had to deal with hell if I was going to deal with heaven. I wanted to deal with the afterlife. And let's face it, this is an important dimension of the afterlife. And the Bible clearly teaches that there is a hell.

There's a lot of controversy in the church currently because a lot of younger pastors, particularly, are pushing a theology called annihilationism. Which is the idea that the unrepentant are snuffed out of existence at death, and therefore, or shortly thereafter, and therefore do not have an eternal conscious experience in hell.

And I lay out the case for that in the book. I was actually interviewed by an annihilationist. And he said, thank you for presenting our case in an accurate way. But my conclusion is, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

That you can make a good biblical case for it, but not a convincing biblical case, despite the fact that John Stott, the great evangelical leader of the 20th century, became an annihilationist toward the end of his life.

I just don't think it's convincing. And so I point out in the book why I believe that's true. And also, as you mentioned, universalism. Rob Bell and a lot of writers have been pushing universalism. And again, the case for that is much less persuasive biblically than the case for annihilationism.

And I believe that's a radical position. So I felt like if I was going to deal with heaven, I had to deal with hell. And I had to do it in a biblical way. And because people need to understand that all are not saved.

And the Bible says in John 1, 12, but as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name. And so it is those that receive this free gift of God's grace who will be assured of eternity with him.

But there's another side to it that needs to be explored.

So that's excellent. We've had a recent podcast episode where we discussed what the Bible says about eternity and hell. And then I actually did interview a friend of mine who is an annihilationist and allowed him to present his viewpoint on that.

And it didn't even want it to be like a debate. It's like, no, I want people to be familiar with this viewpoint because while I disagree with it, I don't view it as radical. And most people have never even been exposed to a positive presentation of it.

And so I listened to what this person has to say, perhaps read his book and then go on and study the scriptures and examine these things and come to a biblically based conclusion on eternal destiny based on what scripture says.

It's not necessarily what you've always been taught.

Exactly. And I think I agree with you. It's a secondary issue. I don't think it's a heresy annihilationism. I just don't think it's sufficiently supported by scripture for me to believe it. But I believe a lot of well-intentioned people who have bought into it, but I think they're ignoring some important biblical evidence on the other side.

Sure. So maybe based on the time, we have a final question for you today. How should our view of heaven and hell or life after death impact how we live our lives today?

Living with Urgency, Confidence, and Hope in Light of Eternity

Well, I think it should give us a sense of urgency, first of all, to tell others the good news about Jesus. Because hell is, you know, the best news about heaven is that it's real. The worst news about hell is that it's real.

But the greatest news of all is nobody has to go to hell. That Jesus went to the cross to die as our substitute to pay the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed. And he offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of his grace to anybody in any culture at any time who turns to him in repentance and faith can have a relationship with God in eternity in heaven forever.

So that's an important message. And I personally become more motivated to tell other people this good news, especially because A, I want them to spend eternity with me in heaven and B, I especially want them to avoid going to hell.

So I think of my father-in-law, who was an atheist his whole life. And he was very ill. And I shared the gospel one last time with him and implored him to come to faith.

And he did.

And then he immediately had a stroke and ended up dying. So in the last cogent conversation of his life, he received this free gift of God's grace, forgiveness. And I believe he'll be in heaven with me.

And why was I motivated at that important moment of the final moments of his life to do that? Because I believe that heaven is real. I believe that hell is real. The other thing I think for Christians, it should encourage us in our faith.

You know, Jesus uses and the Bible uses a lot of different metaphors about heaven. And I think that's because our minds can't understand it yet. You know, the Bible says, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind is even conceived of what God has in store for those that love him.

And so the Bible uses metaphors to try to suggest what heaven will be like. And Jesus in John chapter 14, talking to his disciples, says to them basically, hey, guys, don't be afraid of death. There's plenty of room in my father's home.

And I love this metaphor of home. And for me as a Christian, I think studying that really encouraged me because, you know, I know that, you know, when I've been abroad in third world countries, I remember going to India for a number of weeks doing ministry in a very rural, very primitive, very, you know, difficult area of India, living out of a backpack for several weeks, eating foods that you're unfamiliar with, sleeping on rocks and on the ground.

You begin to long for home. You have a homesickness. And then when you finally do get home and you get into your house and you get into your own bed, it's such a place of comfort and joy and love and satisfaction and fulfillment.

And Jesus is saying, hey, that's the metaphor. I want you to remember if you're a follower of mine, that's our real home. We're going to spend, you're going to spend more time in that home than in any home in this world.

And so I'm encouraged by the study of heaven to anticipate it more, to have a more balanced view of the fear of death. You know, the Bible talks in Hebrews about the fear of death that we have. And it says that the antidote for that is Jesus.

It's a robust view of Jesus and of the afterlife. And when we have that, it gives us confidence in the face of death. And as someone who came close to dying, I know at that moment of death, there's nothing you want more than confidence that you're going to spend eternity in heaven.

In fact, the first verse I ever memorized as a new Christian in 1 John says, these things are written to you who believe in the name of the son of God in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So God doesn't want us on our deathbed in a sense of anxiety and apprehension and nervousness and fear over our eternal destination. He says, you can know that you're going to spend eternity with me. And so when we do know that, when we have that security that we've come to faith in Christ, we have relationship with him, we're adopted as his son or adopted as his daughter.

I think it gives us a sense of courage, especially in this COVID age when so many people are dying. My brother died during the pandemic and so many people have lost family members. 29 of Americans have lost family members or friends to COVID.

And so people are thinking about this. They're fearful of death. And I just hope my book encourages folks. And also the gospel is in this book. And if you read it, you will understand what it takes to be confident that you'll spend eternity with God.

So again, this is the God Questions podcast with special guest Lee Strobel. I could not recommend The Case for Heaven more highly. I've not finished it yet, but a couple of other employees grabbed it before I had a chance to read it.

So it's an excellent book, just like Lee's previous books. And so we'll include links to where you can purchase the book and Lee's other materials. And even you can learn a little bit more about Lee Strobel if you're not familiar with him.

So Lee, just really quickly, in addition to her writing ministry, and tell us a little bit, what is the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics and what other things are keeping you busy these days?

Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics

Yeah, thanks for asking. You know, this is my legacy project. We created a Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University. I harnessed 40 PhDs from around the country. We created 91 courses, all online, all accredited.

You can get a bachelor's degree in Evangelism and Apologetics. You can get a master's degree, all online. And even more than that, we have certificate courses. And these are for people that don't want a degree, but they'd love to take an online course at their own pace on Islam or on the resurrection or on world religions or a number of different topics.

And so we have all that available. We've kept the prices really, really low. We've got hundreds of students in our master's degree program already. We just announced the certificate level. And so we're just starting to fill that.

But we're excited to create a new generation of Christians that understand not just what they believe, but why they believe it. My friend, Jay Warner Wallace said, Evangelism in the 21st century is spelled apologetics.

And apologetics, of course, refers to defending the faith, giving reasons for the hope that we have in Christ. And I think that's true. So we hope to train a bunch of people. And if people want to explore opportunities there, if they go to Strobel Center, all one word, strobelcenter .com, it'll take them right over to the website.

Again, it's all online. So you can do it from the comfort of your home. Also, another thing keeping me busy, we're doing a documentary on The Case for Heaven. We've been filming that. I have two more filming dates coming up.

And it'll be in movie theaters in March. So three nights in movie theaters, and then it'll live stream for people that want to watch it at their home. So that's been keeping me busy. But the thing that keeps me most busy is being a grandfather.

I've got four great-grandchildren from the ages of eight to 16. And I take my role as a grandfather very seriously.

Fantastic. So again, there'll be links to all the items that Lee just mentioned, both in the show notes and on the description on the YouTube channel, and then at podcast .gotquestions .org. So Lee, thank you again for being on the show.

I really enjoyed our talk.

I did too. Thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity and blessings to you and all your listeners.

All right. This has been the Got Questions Podcast. Got questions? Bible has answers. We'll help you find them.