January 21, 2025

Another program powered by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at calm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live. Today's date is January 21st, 2025.

Man, I am so glad things are happening the way they are. I know a lot of people out there are having conniption fits about Trump and everything. I'm delighted. I was telling my wife today, I said that, you know, what if a bunch of us were just sitting around having dinner back, you know, a few years ago and just fantasizing about some of the things we'd wish would happen in our country, like closing the borders and getting rid of the drug cartels and open up drilling so the prices can come down, you know, all this stuff.

And I said, but it would never happen. And it is. And I'm delighted. I know that a lot of you, maybe not, I don't know, but that's me.

I'm delighted.

And so hopefully God will be glorified in everything. And we will see how things are going. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276. And we are having a little bit of a difficulty on Club Deck or Clubhouse.

I do it on the computer, and we ended up getting my computer, and it broke. I have to go into the registry and edit out all of the past stuff that's in there and then reboot the system and do all this stuff.

It's a computer tech thing. Good thing I used to be a computer tech, so it kind of works out.

I'll get that going.

But for now, if you want to listen or you want to watch the show, you can do that by just going to rumble .com forward slash Matt Slick Live, all one word. YouTube, I think we have the same thing, Matt Slick Live and stuff like that.

So a lot of things are happening at the CARM Intergalactic Headquarters. And so we've been working with something called SEMrush to go in and find the problems with the site. We've been working on it for, I guess, two or three months now.

And our percentage of site health, that's what it is, has gone way up. So that's really good. We're going to be doing a lot more stuff too. And like I said before, we're in the market for hiring a kind of operations director.

I don't know what to call it. But basically, it's someone who doesn't mind doing a whole bunch of different things that I don't want to do. You know, it's like pay the missionaries. I mean, I don't mind.

I mean, all these technical things that I should be doing, writing and research, but just all kinds of stuff, you know, like that. And working with Laura and others about getting the site back in shape, learning how to monetize X and Facebook and other things, researching things like how to rent ad space at different sites so we can get the CARM site out there, developing manuals, just a whole bunch of different kinds of things.

And the thing about the job, it would be a lot of it repetitious, but a lot of it would just be brand new. The way it is, I know because I've been doing this for years, it's so often the case that I'll just say to the guys I'm working with, the guys and gals, I'll say, okay, I'll figure it out.

I don't know how to do it. I'll just figure it out. And I just sit down and start Googling something, figure this out, watching videos, trying to figure things out, how to do something on the site, how to whatever.

And so when I'm doing that, I'm not writing. I'm not researching. I'm not teaching. And we want to get me back on the site. I'll do those other things. So if that sounds interesting to you, it'll be a paid position.

And you can just send a resume to info at CARM .org. You have to be very, very, very dedicated to the Lord, very, very serious about this. I tell people that when they work with CARM, sometimes it can come under spiritual attack.

So if you're married, your spouse would have to know that. Also, you have to agree with the statement of faith. And you can go to the CARM website, CARM .org, and just do a search for a statement of faith.

And you can read through it. It's lengthy, very lengthy. But you'll find that there's room in there for variations of orthodoxy. Like you can believe in preacher rapture. It's not a problem. We don't here at CARM.

But if you believe it, okay, whatever. And it's things like that. We think they're within orthodoxy and don't make or break someone as a Christian and things like that. I'm reformed in my theology, and you don't have to be.

So it's just stuff, you know. But the statement of faith goes through that. And we go through and talk about all kinds of stuff like that. All right, let's get in the air with someone really special. It's a guy I've known for years and years.

Hey, Eric, welcome.

You're back on, buddy.

Hey, Matt, how are you doing?

You know me, just busy, always doing something, always busy.

Not like you.

I know you relax a lot. You don't do anything.

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's not much that we're doing compared to what you have to do. I mean, there's a lot of things that you are privileged to do, and God has used your ministry in many ways.

Yeah, and yours, too. Mormonism Research Ministry. You and Bill work at mrm .org, Mormonism Research Ministry. You guys do a great job. I was just promoting you guys over the weekend. People were asking me, I was online, and they were saying, where's a really good resource for Mormonism?

And I said, just go to MRM. I said, I got stuff, but you guys are the experts.

Yeah, well, we appreciate you telling people about what we're all about. Well, hey, I'm calling because I want to let your listeners know I talked to you a couple of weeks ago about the trip to Jordan that we are going to be doing in November this year with Joel Kramer.

It's a 12-day trip, and you're going to be going on that trip. And so I just wanted to let people know that over the last two weeks, you have nine people going with you, and we're down to only ten spots left right now.

And so if people are interested in this trip, they really ought to look at the website. It's 2025jordan .com, and they can learn all about this trip. We're going to be seeing a lot of sites like Peniel, like Mount Nebo, Sodom, Gomorrah, Lot's Cave, spending an entire day at Petra.

But those are great sites, but the enticement to go is a guy named Joel Kramer, a biblical archaeologist who will be guiding us on this trip. He is originally from my state here of Utah and became a biblical archaeologist some 15 years ago.

And he has a YouTube channel with 775 ,000-plus subscribers called Expedition Bible. I'd encourage anybody to go to Expedition Bible and see Joel. And once you have heard Joel, you're going to want to go on a trip where you're going to learn about the Old Testament.

But, yeah, only ten spots left. And if somebody is really interested, they ought to go on now and get the spots while they're available. Because also a week from now, a week and a half from now, on the 31st, the price is actually going to go up $200.

And so we're down to the last few spots. We think we can sell it out before next week, before the end of next week. But we'd just like to add a few more CARM listeners, supporters, people who go to your site.

And so I would suggest highly that if anybody wants to go on that trip to consider it now. And we're going to be flying together out of Chicago, direct flight on Royal Jordanian going to Amman. But like I said, the whole trip is guided by Joel Kramer.

Plus, we have a second archaeologist on board as well. We're limiting the trip to one bus, and it's 80 plus full. So we only have those few spots. But anybody who is interested ought to take it seriously right now and go look at that.

From the show we did two weeks ago, Matt, we had people sign up. So I know there are people listening who might go, Well, I want to travel with Joel Kramer, but I want to go with Matt Slick, and I'll be on the trip as well.

Well, okay, here's a question. Is Lebanon, I mean, is Jordan safe?

Yeah, that's a great question. And there has been no stoppage in the past year and a half. Israel has certainly had closure, and it was not available some of the time to be able to go. But Jordan never lost its tourism.

It's still going strong. And yes, there's, well, I mean, even Israel now, you can go back to Israel. They've just solved the problem in Gaza by signing that peace accord. Lebanon, Hezbollah, they are no longer a problem.

Syria is certainly not a problem any longer. And Iran is very quiet. So there really isn't anything wrong with going to Israel, let alone Jordan, which has been open. And it's very safe. You can go on the website and you can read it.

I have a section on that. But we are very safe wherever we go. Tourism is being done all over the world coming to Jordan, especially Petra. That seems to be the big deal, to go to Jordan. Well, we're going to see Petra, but we're going to see so much more.

And it all involves the Old Testament. You'll not read the Old Testament the same way again, especially when you hear Joel at these sites telling you incredible things.

You know, I remember when we went to UNI and he went to Jericho. And I remember the first time he went, that big hole. The second time, they'd filled in. And he was explaining that some of the archaeologists buried, literally buried evidence that didn't suit them.

He was explaining that.

I thought it was really interesting. Yeah, that was an Italian archaeological group. They have no desire to preserve the biblical history. And I remember going there in 2009. And then every year they did damage to that site.

What's really cool about this Jordan trip, though, is we're going to places where nobody goes. I mean, we're going to be going up to Peniel. We're going to have to hike up. This is where Jacob wrestles the angel of the Lord.

And nobody goes up there. We'll be the only ones walking up this huge, huge tail. And so you're not going to find any issues like that here. There's just not a whole lot of interest besides Mount Nebo and a few other places.

Sodom and Gomorrah, it's out in the middle of nowhere to be able to go there. We'll have a boat ride on the Red Sea. I mean, you're not going to see the same kinds of things as Jericho. It's in the West Bank, Jericho is.

And the Palestinians certainly don't want to try to encourage anybody to have faith in the Old Testament stories. And so they're going to go with Catherine Kenyon, who in the 1950s said, oh, the dates are 150 years off.

But Joel shows in his video, if you go on to his website, he has a video called Jericho on Earth. I highly recommend that video. And he interviews one of the excavators at the time under Catherine Kenyon.

And he didn't even know about the story of Jericho in the Bible. And Joel talks to him about that. And then he admits that the theories that Joel presents as this being an accurate Old Testament site, he actually says, oh, I never thought of that before, which is interesting because this guy dug there at Jericho.

Wow. And how many times have you been there? I'm just curious.

To Israel or to Jordan?

Jordan.

Jordan. This will be my third trip. We did one in 2023. Same exact trip, 12 days. I was there a few years before that. But this will be my second time with Joel. So I coordinate all of this. I put it together.

The website is what I run, 2025jordan .com. And then I hand it over to Joel. I do nothing. Joel takes care of everything because he knows what he wants to do. This is his trip as far as the itinerary is concerned.

And you go through that itinerary, you're going to be seeing places that you might not know much about. But, boy, you're going to learn a lot when you do go on a trip like this.

Wow. Good.

I'm looking forward to it in November. All right, folks, there's a break. So, hey, thanks, Eric. And let me know how it goes.

All right.

And we'll continue. All right.

God bless, brother.

Thanks so much, Matt, for having me.

God bless.

Look at you.

All right.

Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. You know, during the break, I went to google .maps, whatever it is.

And I was going around looking in Jordan, looking at the, you know, going on the street view. And so I'm cruising around. It just looks normal. It looks like Turkey and has mosques and stuff. There's people in the park.

It looks pretty modern. And it is modern. And I'm looking, and there's a McDonald's. And I'm looking at McDonald's, and it says McDonald's. And a lot of the signs are in English. English.

English.

I'm looking at a weird word there. It's interesting. And, yeah, it's good. The food over there is really, it's different. I enjoy the food. It's just a different palette, a different set of tastes. But it's good.

It's familiar. But we're used to American, you know, spices and styles and things like that. But I enjoy the Mediterranean food. It's been good. Look at this. I'm going through here looking, and a lot of stuff is in English.

Yeah, I've never been to Jordan. I think it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. And the hotels are great. It's always been good. I feel very confident, very safe on those buses. I wouldn't go if I didn't feel safe.

And I definitely do feel safe when I go. And so there you go. Anyway, if that sounds interesting, 2025jordan .com. All right, so last week I spoke a little bit about, I believe it was last week, about a battle I had online with an East Orthodox guy over Mary being a functioning goddess.

Well, last night, was it last night? Yeah, last night I had a very, very interesting conversation with some people in a chat room, in voice chat rooms. And so I go into these chat rooms, and I just wait.

And if people call me up to ask a question, I go up and I answer questions. And a lot of times they don't. They just have their discussions, and that's fine. Just be polite. It's not all about me or anything.

If they need me, I'll join in. Well, it happened last night. They said, hey, man, we got a question for you, and blah, blah, blah. Okay, so we got talking. And I was telling my wife about this afterwards.

And it's hard to describe. But I'm talking to the East Orthodox and the Catholics. And they, how do I describe? It's really hard to describe. I'll be talking to them about salvation. And they would talk about the works part of salvation.

And I would respond and show them scriptures about we don't cooperate with God to maintain our place with God. And that puzzled them. And one time I asked a guy, because I had quoted Matthew 5 .48 where it says, Be perfect because your Father in heaven is perfect.

And I said, can you be perfect? And the guy goes, yeah, of course I can. And it blew me away because this guy, I think it was East Orthodox, and I was going back and forth with the EO and the RC, the Catholics, Roman Catholics.

And he said, so matter of factly, oh, yeah, yeah, I can be perfect. If God tells me to be, I can be it. And I said, so really? He says, yeah, God would never ask you to do something you can't do. I said, of course he would.

He says, be perfect. You can't be perfect. Only God is perfect. It says, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect on the same level as God. Is that what you're saying you can do? And he said, yes.

And this was the beginning of the conversation of my eyes opening up wider and wider.

What?

You actually teach this? And no one objected. And it was dumbfounding to me that our CEO, since one guy spoke for all of them, but when they rotated three or four of them, none of them disagreed with that.

None of them said that wasn't true, which is interesting, because I focused on it for a while. And I said, so you can be perfect on the same level as Jesus was? Because that's the standard of righteousness.

Isn't that correct? He said, well, yeah. And I said, so on the same level as Jesus is? Yeah, of course. And so, you know, it's just like crickets, you know? It's like, ding, ding, ding. You just sit there listening, because like, am I actually hearing what I'm hearing?

Because the arrogance and the pride that was so common with these comments that he and others were making, very prideful, very, very arrogant, and they couldn't even see it. And they were saying, no, we don't do it on our own.

God enables us to be perfect. He enables us to do pure and good works. I said, really? What are some of the pure good works? He says, baptism, the Eucharist.

I'm like, wow.

So I said, you know, I had this discussion. I said, so let me get this straight. Are you saying that when you participate in whatever these sacraments are, that your heart is perfectly pure before God?

And they said, well, I don't say it's always perfectly pure, but it comes from God, so it's pure enough. I said, wait a minute. You just said on the same level as God, and now you're saying it's not quite.

Well, he understands that, you know, we try, we fail. These guys can't. They don't understand what they're saying. On one hand, they'll say, yeah, we can be perfect like Jesus, like God. On the other hand, well, we're not.

We try. But I thought you said you could be perfect. Yes, we can. But that means not failing. Well, he understands our failures.

What?

The mental disparity of them contradicting themselves right, one after another after another, and then walking forward as though, that's fine. They couldn't see it. It is really interesting. Charlie's fine.

Was he a Will Duffy convert?

Will Duffy and others.

They're still as perfectionist. So this conversation went on, right? And it progressed slowly as I was very calm. Just wait a minute. Let's talk about this. You do these things like Jesus does. The same level.

And he says, yeah, yeah. I'm just, are you serious? And so I said, okay, let me ask you. Do you keep yourself right with God for your salvation by your sincerity? You're doing various things. Yes, we do.

He didn't say yes at first. I had to ask him several times. Is it the case or is it not the case that you do this? By what you do in your ceremonies, your confession, your Eucharistic participation, whatever it is.

Is that what you do?

Yes.

Okay.

And what started to dawn on me even more was the externality of their relationship with God through ceremonies. Through ceremonies. It's relationship by ceremony, not relationship by intimate indwelling of God with you.

Their idea of relationship with God is through the authority of the church, the priesthood, and the ceremonies.

You go through them.

That's relationship with God. And the church is that which promotes and guides you through those ceremonies so that you can have a right relationship with God. That's what I was learning last night. Now, I've talked about this before, but it really hit me last night.

Now, the Greek word for church is ecclesia. And so they're ecclesial literates. They worship and serve the church. When we come back, I'll talk a little bit more about this. But if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

I'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276. I've got more to talk about on that topic of that I'm going to talk about.

And I'll introduce externalism and internalism in salvation. Let's get to Jan from North Carolina. Jan, welcome. You're on the air.

Hello, Mr. Slick. How are you today?

Hanging in there, you know, just hanging in there.

You know, I don't really know much about the externalism, internalism. I'm learning all the way. But my question is back to a question that's not probably near as complicated for you, which is to me, which I really cannot wrap my mind around the Trinity.

So I am a freewill Baptist, and I do attend regularly. I just can't. I'm not looking for contradictions in the Bible, but I do have a specific passage that seems to be contradictive that I would like you to explain to me, if you would.

Sure. Go ahead.

And that is when Jesus was baptized, and the Holy Spirit came and said, This is my son, and I'm very proud of him. I'm proud. And then, of course, it seemed like two different people there. However, then the devil tempts him.

And if this devil, if Satan knew that it was God, it seems like he wouldn't have tempted him the way he did by making him, you know, asking him to turn the stone into bread, et cetera. Why would he challenge him if he knew that was God?

All right. First of all, what you said, I'll hone your theology a little bit more. So you said two different people. And so we don't say people when we talk about the Trinity.

Well, entities?

We don't say entities. We don't say people. We say persons. We say the word person because it means something. Because it means something different in the context of the Trinity. Okay. A lot of people don't understand that.

So a person is someone who has a will, can say you and yours and me and mine and things like that. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit each exemplify that. Yet there's only one God, so we say three persons, not three people, not three entities.

Okay?

Yes.

All right. All right. Now, the other thing is, some people make the mistake of thinking that, well, the devil's rational and he's reasonable, and so that's why he wouldn't tempt Jesus because he knows he's God.

But that's not the case. The devil is wholly and completely evil down to his core. And rationality is not the issue. Rationality doesn't mean, hey, he will or won't because it doesn't make any sense. No.

He just is so evil. He will try no matter what to do that which is contrary to the will of God and the truth of God. That's why he tempted Jesus.

Okay.

All right?

That makes a lot of sense. And one question I have, though, is, I guess, has the Trinity always been a belief system in Christianity, or is that something that was established later?

It was established later because the formal doctrine of the Trinity was derived from Scripture after the completion of the Bible. And right away at the completion of the Bible, roughly in 90 A .D., Christianity was under heavy attack.

So there were a lot of people running for their lives. And though the Scriptures were being preserved and disseminated throughout the Mediterranean area, it wasn't until the persecution stopped after 200 or 300 years that the Christians could then start having councils and meetings about, well, what is this saying?

And then that's when the Trinity was officially, so to speak, developed out of what Scripture says soon after.

Okay.

But the Bible itself does not refer to a Trinity. Then, you're saying?

Right. It never says the word Trinity. It never says the word atheist either, but it teaches a concept of atheism.

No, it also, but I know that Jesus makes a lot of allusions, like if you know the Father, you know me, and you can't go to him without coming through me. So I see a lot of positive reinforcement of that statement.

But I just have the hardest time with that for some reason.

The hardest time with what?

But I do like the fact that you said that there's no reason for me to think of the devil as a rational, reasonable person. You know, I do see that to make a good explanation. It's simple and it's to the point.

I do like that.

Well, good.

Well, let me try and help you out with something else, okay? And it's an analogy I use about the Trinity that helps people. I use the issue of time. Time is past, present, and future. And each, the past, present, and future, are the same thing in that they are time.

They are all three time. But there's a distinction in their relationship to one another. So the past is yesterday, the future is tomorrow, and the present is now. So what we're saying then is that we observe or we are made aware of the distinction between past, present, and future, which is all the one thing, time.

I see this. It's time in three parts. I see that. I see where you're going, yes.

Yeah, and I don't like to use the word part because as a theologian, it's called partialism is a false teaching. But you're on the right track. We just don't use the word part because it's been worked out before.

I do like your analogy. I can see that. That's a clear analogy to me, yes.

And so the same way that God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are all the one thing, God, but we recognize them being distinct from each other in their relationship to each other and to us, the same as time.

The relationship to each other, past, present, and future, are different. And to us, they relate differently to us as well. And that's how we, that's a good analogy of the Trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, there's a distinction internally, and there's a distinction when they relate to us.

And that's how we recognize them.

Yes, I can see that. That's enlightening to me, yes. That is. I do struggle with this, though, honestly. And I ask my pastor, and I get something about Godhead and this and that, and I don't really, it's not clear.

And that's why I always come to you and try to get a little more clarification, as you know.

Well, I hope that helps.

I may call again, but I'm going to work on the time analogy, and I'm going to think about it more. But, you know, just for some reason, it seems like at our church, too, it's such a point of, it has to be, you know, you can't even talk about it or not believe it or ask questions about it, or you're, you know, you're considered not worthy.

Here's the thing.

Sometimes I don't believe, I just want to know.

The people in the Old Testament weren't aware of the Trinity the way we are. It doesn't mean they weren't saved. The people in the New Testament who trusted in Christ, they didn't have a good understanding of the Trinity like we do.

It doesn't mean they weren't saved. When people come to me and say, well, they don't know if they believe in the Trinity or not, I don't assume they're not saved. I just say, well, let's talk about it.

Let me show you what it is in the Scriptures. Because ultimately, you know, you'll come to believe it if you're really of God and stuff like that because God gives us what we need at the time and we move through it.

So, now, I've written a great deal on the Trinity. I've debated it many, many, many times.

And, you know, I've read some of your, some of your quorum information on the Trinity because this is not the first time I've called you and asked you about this. So, yeah.

Well, good.

You referred me to your reading and I have.

Yeah.

It's a complicated thing to me.

It is.

But look, I'm autistic and I write complicated things. I try to write them easy to understand.

You do, yes.

So, if that helps, go check it out.

It did help a lot. Go ahead.

I said, write down some questions and call me up. Go ahead.

Yeah, I will. I will. I definitely will. I mean, I always feel like your answer is like the whole thing about what you just said about Satan challenging Jesus. Yes, it didn't. That makes total sense. Why would I expect him to be a nice, rational human being or any other type of person?

Why would I expect that? I don't know, but I did until just that moment.

Right.

I guess I expected that he was so devious and intelligent that he would be more, but I can see what you're saying there. He would challenge Jesus every chance he got probably.

That's right. And one of the analogies I give to people is I say, think about when you've been most angry about something and you do things that you know, even in your anger, you know you're going to regret.

We've all done that kind of stupid stuff. Well, just amplify that in Satan and his evilness, and that's why he's tempting. That's why he's this and that.

He literally couldn't resist it. He really couldn't stop himself. He literally couldn't resist it in his own personality. He couldn't resist it to do it. That was very clarifying.

Yeah, there you go. All right.

Okay, well, you know, I may use your time analogy at church.

Please do. It's the best one I've heard. I should come up with it. I used it as that. I developed it into the distinguishing aspects, and it's the best one I know of. So I just tell that to people, and it's a good analogy.

Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, that's a very good one. I think someone else said something about, you know, when you're not at the beach, but you smell the air as you're getting close to the beach. That would be the Holy Spirit.

You know, it's still part of the whole experience. This is what they were telling, and I just couldn't wrap my mind around that, you know? Even though I live in North Carolina, I know the beach. It didn't ring a bell, okay?

It's not a good analogy.

No, no, it's not.

Time is.

Yeah, you smell the Holy Spirit.

What?

How does smelling relate to the Holy Spirit?

No, no, no.

You smell the Holy Spirit 100 miles before you get to God, the beach, the Godhead. So, yeah, exactly.

So use the time analogy, okay? Just use it, all right?

I value the time analogy. Even though at our church we're very conservative, and women are not supposed to get up and make too many demonstrative remarks, but once in a while at Sunday school, I am allowed to speak.

You can.

We should talk about that. Women should not be restricted in that sense. There's the music. We've got to break, so we've got to go, okay?

Okay.

I'm going to let you go. Appreciate you so much, sir. I'll see you soon.

You, too.

Go.

Thank you.

Bye.

Okay.

Hey, folks, be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right.

Welcome back to the show. Hope you're enjoying it so far. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276. Cole from Kentucky.

Welcome.