Ecumenism

Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360. That's 602 -274 -1360

Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

That's 1 -888 -550 -1360 And now with today's topic, here's

James White And welcome to the dividing line today, my name is James White It's good to be with you.

And the question we're going to be handling today is how shall we all get together?

What is the subject of ecumenism? Jesus prayed in John chapter 17 that we would all be one

The question is what does that mean? There's a tremendous amount of emphasis and push upon Being able to be one in the faith to be one in the body of Christ So, how are we to understand that we are to be one in the body of Christ?

How does that work? Well, there's a tremendous push these days to Compromise various sundry issues.

There's a tremendous desire on the part of people to get us together But to do so at the cost of truth

This coming Thursday evening on the straight talk live program with Marty Minto Right now it is scheduled

Anyways, and I hope that the scheduling remains firm and everything works out to where this is going to be able to take place

I am going to be on the air as a guest in the program

Along with two individuals at least one of which is involved with the Arizona Ecumenical Council and we are going to be discussing the upcoming event

January 15th at Bank One ballpark There we will be discussing how it is that people can get together to lift up Jesus even when

The issues of the gospel are left aside In fact, how is it that people can get together and lift up Jesus?

when They do not believe the same things concerning who he is They do not believe the same things concerning what he has done.

They do not believe the same things concerning His atoning work concerning how one is saved concerning the mission of the church

Concerning the inspiration of the Bible the foundation of the faith the resurrection of Christ Pretty much you name it

How can there be? a Raising up a lifting up of Jesus when there is no unity of faith

That's going to be the subject this Thursday evening, and I hope you will have the opportunity To tune into that program between 5 and 7 p .m.

And if you're listening to us today on the Internet That's 5 to 7 p .m. Mountain Time right now 5 to 7 p .m.

Arizona Time. I However, you need to do it set an alarm so that you can be with us this coming

Thursday evening for this program It was my thesis when one of the guests that will be on with me was on earlier and I called in and made some

Comments it was my thesis that if we follow the apostolic example

The example provided to us in the pages of Scripture itself. We will discover

Exactly how we're supposed to handle this situation the apostolic example is provided to us in book of Galatians and If that book was not in the

Bible and in fact if most of Paul's books were not in the Bible I suppose that we could we could find some way of just all getting together and not worrying about what anybody believes

But it's there and we see the fact that the Apostle Paul Looked at the situation in Galatia.

He saw the Judaizers who? Certainly in today's realm would have been considered prime candidates for ecumenical dialogue

We are given no indication that the Galatians in any way shape or form compromised on Important issues for example, they would have been considered conservatives just like we are

They would have been considered to be Fellow believers in for example, the authority of Scripture the authority of the

Bible the inspiration of the Bible They would have been right there with us on many of these issues

We are given no indication in the book of Galatians that they did not believe in the resurrection of Christ That they did not believe in the deity of Christ They would have they probably very very moral people we could have considered them some

Co -agitators Co -combatants against the moral evils of the

Roman Empire and oh, did they have moral evils and Yet Paul is so well in today's language short -sighted

Paul is so narrow and unloving as to write an entire book and Send to the churches in Galatia and Say these people are false brethren

Can such a term even be used in today's ecumenical Church? Can we refer who is a false brother?

From the discussion that I heard I'm going to ask this question Thursday The discussion I heard before is there is no standard upon which to make that decision as long as someone says

They're our brother then we have to accept that Statement at face value and simply say all right brother as long as you say you're my brother.

You're my brother no content to that confession can be asked for or demanded and Yet if we look at the apostolic example

Paul well knew He well knew that individuals would

Call themselves our brothers As he said in Acts chapter 20 man would rise up from the very leadership of the church who are ravenous wolves

Not sparing the flock Paul knew that this was the case and obviously there had to be an objective standard by which individuals could determine

Who was and who was not a true brother over against a false brother?

Paul wrote this letter. He called people false brethren, and what's worse is he? Anathematized he placed under the very curse of God Those who preached a gospel different than his own well if that isn't narrow -minded bigotry

What is at least that's what we're told today? But you see the

Apostle Paul knew something I'm sure he knew of what the Lord Jesus had said in Mark chapter 8

When he said if anyone is ashamed of me or of my gospel

That in the parallel accounts the same of the same discussion the part of the Lord Jesus He connects his gospel to himself

You cannot say that you are lifting up Jesus Christ when you show no concern for the purity of his gospel and Yet we live in a day where people tell us well all you need to do is exalt

Jesus all this theology stuff It really doesn't matter well

The Lord Jesus didn't see quote -unquote theology is something that was separate from a relationship with himself

He didn't see it as some separate concern that did not matter Instead the

Lord Jesus said anyone who is ashamed of me or my gospel and it would seem to me That many in our world are ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ Because they won't call people sinners

They won't call sin sin. They will not use words like repentance

They will not identify the lifestyles that are now becoming accepted within liberalism

What they are sinful lifestyles activities that reek of rebellion against God And so they're ashamed of the gospel

So why in the world even be concerned? about quote -unquote lifting up Jesus If you don't care about what he did

He's the one who preached this message As soon as he comes upon the public scene, what does he do?

Does he say I just want everybody to love one another and to just get together and hold hands and sing warm?

Songs and make everyone feel good Is that what he did? What did

Jesus do when he first appears on the scene? repent For the kingdom of God is at hand

Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you will perish in hellfire.

Oh Wow I'll bet those particular passages of the gospel do not Receive a tremendous amount of emphasis in various and sundry ecumenical gatherings.

Do they? No, they do not you cannot lift up Jesus Christ while ignoring his gospel and When you stretch your hand across the gulf of false teaching to embrace that which is untrue

You are doing despite to the gospel itself I'm tired of hearing people say well, you know, you just need to be you just need to be more loving

You all are just too narrow. You all are just too mean spirited

Let me tell you something it is not showing love to God and love to his truth

To take the easy way out and shave off the rough corners and Edit the gospel down to something that will not cause the world to react negatively to it the gospel of Jesus Christ will always bring about a reaction and it's never an action of Neutrality If you're preaching the gospel and the world could care less you better check what gospel you're preaching if you're preaching the gospel and the lost person can sit there week in and week out and hear it and Not see anything whatsoever in what you're saying not see anything in the message you're delivering that challenges them in their sin

Then I'd say you have a major problem in regards to what you're preaching Ecumenism, let's all just get together.

Let's all just hold hands Can we do it and still love

God? The message that I'm going to bring Thursday evening is Compromising the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a loving thing to do

And any person who holds a Bible in their hand and claims to be a Herald a proclaimer of the gospel of Christ and yet shows a willingness

To compromise on the very important issues is is he truly

God Ecumenically minded folks don't mind what you believe The Arizona ecumenical council has

Unitarian Universalists on it who don't believe that Jesus Christ was God come in the flesh Don't believe that he rose physically from the dead

So I guess you can disbelieve the entirety of the Christian message, but as long as you call yourself religious and Maybe repeat a couple of the commandments just not really apply them very consistently then everything's okay

That is a compromise of the gospel We can see that type of compromise we can see that type of an issue when it comes up at least

I hope we can I Realize there are many many many in our society today who though members of nominally evangelical churches are never challenged to really give deep considerate thought to what their faith really means and so when individuals come along who

Can speak well and can talk a good line Many individuals are subject to becoming very confused and even embracing heretical and false beliefs

Because they have not been prepared for the teaching of the church to know the difference between right and wrong

But there's another kind of problem that I'd like to bring to your attention today And if you'd like to join the program you can at area code 602 274 13 60 602 274 13 60 or one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty

That's one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty And if you'd like to join us on the program you can do so today if you'd like to get on the air we always have those folks who wait until we have five minutes left to go and then they

Then they decide to call in and then we have those really fast conversations that Really are so much difficult for everybody to follow so if you'd like to get online today

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I Know that this is going to appear to some people as if I'm I'm trying to pick on somebody and really honestly

I am not But this past week

I believe on Thursday afternoon yes, it was Thursday afternoon I know it was because it was

I was getting ready to go down and teach the last Greek class of the semester This past Thursday afternoon on the

Bible Answer Man program Dr.. Norman Geisler was on and some of you remember three weeks ago.

We addressed a statement Made by Dr.. Geisler way back in hmm

That would be April of this year Where in response to a particular caller?

Dr.. Geisler had indicated that the Roman Catholic Church is a true

Church with serious error rather than being a false

Church with a great amount of truth and In the process he had indicated

That you cannot use Reformation standards the standards of the

Reformation and specifically a belief in Forensic justification is how he put it to place

Roman Catholicism outside the pale of orthodoxy Well it just so happened to this past Thursday I was listening since I noticed that he was on the program and and I had just returned to my home to get ready to Go teach and I had the radio on I just turned it on When John from st..

Louis, Missouri called in and I want to thank the Stephen Geisler for transcribing these

Calls for me off of the internet, and this is what John's question was quote

I heard you I think on the program a couple of weeks ago Or maybe a week or so ago And you made a statement about the fact that either the

Catholic Church is a true Church with error or a false Church with truth My real question here is how do you answer people who really think they believe what we do and as I recall the caller had said something along the lines of He shares a lot of with there in the st.

Louis area with people who are Catholics And they but they say well, we just believe what you believe and so he asked dr.

Geisler How do you answer people who really think they believe what we do? Dr..

Geisler's answer went as follows Well first of all my statement is that the Roman Catholic Church is a true

Church with significant error Rather than a false Church with significant truth in it

After all the fundamentals of the faith the deity of Christ the virgin birth the substitutionary

Atonement the bodily resurrection salvation by grace are found in the

Roman Catholic Church Including the total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for us

Where we differ with them is we believe that it's by faith alone through Christ alone based on the

Bible alone Through grace alone to the glory of God alone It's that word alone that they miss on five different areas and the

Roman Catholic Church has significant error in it And it's on all of these things I just mentioned and then

Hank Hanegraaff said and Significant issues that we would all have to agree have to do in many cases the very bedrock of our faith

One of the things I think we need to point out norm is the fact that so often we are looking at the errors of Roman Catholicism and there's a place for that, but we sometimes forget that liberal

Protestant denominations have virtually done away with the essentials the historic Christian faith Dr.

Geisler responded. Yeah, those five soul as I mentioned faith alone Christ alone Bible alone grace alone

Glory of God alone. You can find those violated in Protestant churches, too

Well Is it not the the case that there are many Protestant churches today liberal

Protestant churches that no longer believe any of that. Yes yes, and Many of those are the ecumenical churches

We were just talking about that no longer believe in the deity of Christ or the virgin birth or the existence of the miraculous or the inspiration of Scripture and my friends and if you've

Never heard anyone say this. Let me say it loudly and clearly so that you can hear it. They are not Christian churches

Did you hear that? They are not Christian churches. Oh, they may have steeples and crosses and talk about Jesus and have pretty

Christmas programs but if you don't believe That the Bible is a revelation from God the

Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh You don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ You don't believe that he upon the cross bore the sins of his people you if you don't believe any of that You're not a

Christian. In fact, I'm not really sure why you're playing at religion But that isn't Christianity So it's quite obvious that these are not even

Protestant churches Because you cannot be a Protestant and not believe these things

You may want to be called a Protestant. You may want to be called a Christian, but there are certain definitions that define

What a faith is So there's everything right to say.

Yes, we need to be consistent and recognize that Liberal Protestants and liberal

Catholics who no longer believe anything of the gospel message Need to be evangelized because they're not

Christians fine But what caused me to to Be absolutely positively amazed that's that's that's somewhat somewhat of a

Understatement was the state was those two of them. First of all, dr. Geisler says that we and the

Catholics agree About the substitutionary atonement

The substitutionary atonement We agree on the substitutionary atonement with Rome No, my friends we do not the very term

Substitutionary atonement the concept that Jesus Christ takes the place as A sacrifice and Bears the penalty due to our sins in his body in our place that concept is

Not only not what Rome teaches That is not what Arminianism historically has taught either the

Arminians Who developed shortly after the Reformation recognized that if they accepted the idea that Jesus Christ died in the place of?

all men That this meant that the punishment due to all men had already been paid and that therefore all men must be saved

Therefore since most Arminians Recognized the Bible's teaching concerning punishment they abandoned the idea which is a reformed idea of the

Substitutionary atonement and replaced it with the governmental theory of the atonement

If you'd like to read some more on that I'd suggest you look at the discussion in Robert Raymond's new systematic theology or in Elwell's Dictionary of theology under Arminianism there is a discussion there

I believe it's by Kenneth Greider if I'm just quoting off the top of my head here an Arminian scholar who?

Specifically says the idea of Jesus dying in my place is a is a spillover from Calvinism into Arminianism But certainly that's not

Rome's position then After saying this after saying the substitutionary atonement salvation by grace

Are Found in the Roman Catholic Church and of course that that's like drawing fingernails across a chalkboard salvation by grace

You mean salvation by sacrament? grace Channeled through sacraments, but not salvation by grace.

I Mean that means something so completely different in a biblical context remember a few weeks ago when we talked about indulgent

IARM doctrina Indulgences and these these gifts of grace that one must earn

I Mean we're using Terminology here in a way that absolutely destroys the meaning of the words but after saying that Substitutionary atonement salvation by grace are found the

Roman Catholic Church here is the statement. We're quite literally I cried out so loudly that my daughter summer came running across the house to see what was wrong and That was this line

Including the total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for us.

I Don't even know where to start Folks just think with me just for a moment

The mass as a propitiatory sacrifice Rome teaches the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice.

It is the representation of this Totally sufficient sacrifice of Christ on the cross

Represented on the Roman altar a person can go to mass 15 ,000 20 ,000 times in their life and Still die impure in fact technically still die and go to hell through the commission of immortal sin

And this is believing the total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice You only obtain the merits of the sacrifice through the good works done in a state of grace and yet Christ's sacrifice is totally sufficient

You have to go to purgatory to undergo sada spacio the suffering of atonement and Christ's sacrifice is sufficient

You can receive Indulgences to receive the remission of the temporal punishment of sins and Christ's sacrifice is sufficient

Where why are we? redefining language here There is no sufficient sacrifice in Roman Catholicism That's the whole point

The reason they don't believe in justification by faith is because they have no ground in a completed sacrifice of Christ to no

Justification by faith so that they can have peace with God as a finished work by Christ Jesus The whole system is rotten to its core biblically speaking

So I don't understand how anyone knowing what Rome teaches Listening to this applied by Roman Catholic apologists could say

Including the total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice in the cross for us That makes absolutely positively no sense to me.

I Have with me I have a number of things but I have with me the the universal catechism of the

Catholic Church and just briefly Here on section 617 the

Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as The source of eternal salvation and teaches that his most holy passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us

You know what that means folks Christ's death Merits the grace whereby we do good works in a state of grace to earn eternal life

The grace that flows to us through Mary only through Mary and Then only through the sacraments of the church

To bring about our salvation was merited by the death of Christ. Is that substitutionary atonement?

No Is that the total sufficiency of the work of Christ on the cross no

But that's what the universal catechism of the Catholic Church says Ludwig Ott fundamentals of Catholic dogma

Under a denial That Christ dies for the predestined only a denial that Christ dies for the faithful only

Says the universality of Christ vicarious atonement refers to the objective redemption only

Christ made sufficient atonement for all men without exception the subjective appropriation of the fruits of redemption is however dependent on the fulfillment of certain conditions on Faith and on the observation of the commandments

So Christ merits salvation He earns it through his vicarious death

But then we have to appropriate through what we do folks That's denial of the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ and it's right on the very surface of the most basic resources that you can obtain for determining what

Rome teaches dogmatically and Officially and of course, that's what you have to first Determine we have only one phone line open right now 602 2 7 4 13 61 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60.

We're gonna take a break and be right back 27 minutes before the hour of 3 o 'clock.

You're listening to the dividing line on kpxq and we'd like to get you involved We have only one line open right now.

We've got folks lined up. We lost one caller I hope George calls back if you'd like to but till then let's talk to Martin in Birmingham, England.

Hi Martin Hi James, how are you doing? I'm very well. How are you doing? All right, what you think about the topic today?

interesting Along the lines of ecumenism the question always pops into my mind is well, where do you draw the line?

You know if you're gonna say that the a certain group is Christian because they you know They mentioned that like you mentioned the universalist.

I mean, you know, what about you know? What about the the Hindus when they believe in Jesus provided an avatar? What about the

Muslims why believe in Jesus provided? He's only a prophet Well, I don't see that there's any standard that ecumenism and those who are ecumenically minded can in point -of -fact point to It is my understanding that many of these ecumenical movements will embrace

For example the Metropolitan Church, they'll embrace Mormonism frequently, it's the

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't want to get involved because they believe something too strongly to compromise in that way, which is a incredibly sad statement to make but There there is no standard

Any longer and so it would seem to me that if a Hindu came along to these folks and said well

You know, I want to honor Jesus too. I think that he was he was a great man and that he spoke much truth

I don't see there being any basis upon which someone could say no and in point of fact

I think the most liberals would would embrace that you see this, of course right there in your own land in the

Church of England I mean If that's Christianity, I I'm sorry you know when you have the the

Buddhists and the Hindus and everybody else getting together and Saying well, let's just all let's just all get together.

There's no longer any distinctive Claim that Jesus Christ is truly Savior from anything.

That's really real like sin So well, there's how can how can a line be drawn and if it is drawn it's drawn utterly on an arbitrary basis

Well, you know, you're also amazed me I mean someone's only got to sit down and listen to I mean say one of your debates with the

Roman Catholic I mean, even if they disagree with you, they've still got to admit. Hold on a minute. There are some differences

If you just listen to a half -hour debate one person saying one thing one person saying the other Agree or disagree in one side of the other you've got to admit these people are coming from a completely different angle

That's right. That's how in it always just be the documents of the Roman Catholic Church, for example You know, you've got to admit but most

But most people don't function on that level any longer It's a matter of well, wouldn't we all just feel so much better if we could all just agree

Let's just all agree with one another it would feel so good. And you know the people on the other side They seem so nice and they seem

So honest and so kind and and how can anyone who's kind and and speaks nicely ever really be a false teacher?

Well, you know I get the feeling from many things that Paul said that his opponents were actually very smooth of speech and We're very able to take in the weak minded person who is susceptible to Looking only at mannerisms rather than at the substance of what is being said and the entire mindset any many more of Western civilization is

Away from critical thought and towards subjective feeling I mean we have heard on the show people of people are getting last week

There was a woman who rang in and just lately said well, why don't you concentrate on the nice things on the good things? We are the

Mormon Our family value, you know, I mean I can point you wonderful atheist you've got fantastic family value

They love their family and they're very active in the community, but that doesn't make you it doesn't actually she she called in when you ring

And you're on a game show. I'm sorry We just love having you call we get our little

We're you know, you're gonna you're helping everyone here in Phoenix learn proper English Really proper

English because the English define proper English. Do they not? Well, thank you for calling today

Martin, I appreciate all right And let's keep up our theme of staying out of the city of Phoenix for the moment

And let's talk with Michael in New York City. Hi Michael. Hello, sir. How are you?

Very good, sir first off I'd like to say that I'm a little sick of this ecumenical hand -holding with Roman Catholics or with Mormons or These other churches that refuse to stick directly on the

Word of God One example is when one pervert the meaning of salvation

Biblically, they're destroying the purpose of Jesus on the cross when they pervert the meaning of Christ I'm on the cross with their ceremonies.

They take people's mind off of course, and I'm sick of it But it happens all around you especially in your area.

I mean if you're in the New York City area It's a very very heavily Roman Catholic area, but it's also very liberal.

So there's a tremendous amount of liberal Catholicism all around you there and That kind of thing is going to I'm sure you have a

New York ecumenical council or something similar to it I don't know the specifics though. I probably should I go out there often enough.

In fact, we'll be there again in a few weeks But I'm sure you've got it all around you and do you see do you see formerly?

Conservative churches in your area beginning to buckle on these issues. Well, actually I'm not in the city

I'm actually quite a ways away. I'm closer to the Starting point for the Mormons near Palmyra Okay, but we do have a lot of Mormons in our area and there are so many churches locally that are bending to Mormons So many churches that are accepting some of their doctrine or even accepting their ideas into their churches and it's ridiculous

And when you bring these issues up to these people these liberals out there, they'll say you're being judgmental

Mm -hmm, and that's the first thing they'll say and They're missing the point so the Bible never said ignore false teaching the

Bible on the other hand says reject false teaching That's right. So that they judge you as being judgmental

It's not a matter of being too judgmental it's the idea of exercising any type of judgment at all because the

Assumption of the modern society is is there is no right or wrong in religious matters

Religion is a matter of them of of each person determining what's right for themselves

And therefore if you say there is an objective standard There's a right or wrong then you are being closed -minded then you're being bigoted then you're causing problems

And that's really you need to understand that that's the beginning starting point of their thinking and therefore if we can find someone who will actually

Engage us in rational dialogue You have to go to that issue first challenge that and then then having successfully challenged that begin to Really present to them the fact that God as our

Creator can define what is right and wrong in all areas Including the area of our religious faith.

That's absolutely right. The Bible says in Isaiah chapter 5 in verse 20 I can't quote the verse verbatim, but it says want to them that call evil good and good evil

That's the very point people today are doing what is right in their own minds not according to God's Word They're setting up their doctrine according to their own minds not according to God's Word.

They are being rebellious They're being rebellious against God's teaching and when they're accepting heretics literal heretics into their camps

They are disobeying a Titus chapter 3 in verse 10, which says reject the heretic Well, you know, you can't even call people heretics any longer that Terminology and believe me abused by so many people, of course, and and it has been abused

I mean, I I tried to have a conversation in a chat channel This past week and there were about three or four

King James only advocates in there and you would not believe The kind of infantile behavior that we saw and of course the term heretic was thrown about right and left

So certainly because people have observed have abused it then then people say well You can no longer use this type of terminology properly

That's obviously not logical either and yet for most people the hesitance is not because of that It's because they no longer believe that God's Word is clear enough to be able to identify a belief as being utterly and completely

Wrong. I'll give you an example on the very same Bible answer man program that I just quoted from another caller called in and this this this bothered me greatly and Asked about the teaching of Gregory Boyd.

Are you familiar with him? Yes. I've heard the name I don't believe you Robinson was Seventh -day Adventist, but Boyd was he was a oneness

Pentecostal as I as I recall right now converted, right? Well, the problem is

Gregory Boyd presents and teaches the concept of open theism the idea that God has all knowledge that is

Knowable, but since the future does not exist either to men or to God then

God does not know what is in the future and God in essence

I don't see how this system can avoid going directly into process theology and the idea that God is growing and Progressing and learning and becoming better and so on and so forth

Well, there are those that are hesitant to call that view heresy. I'm not one of them

I think you deny to God The attribute of omniscience when you say that the future is as blank to God as it is to you and I Who are time -bound creatures you end up limiting

God to time prophecy becomes a good guess Not something that's certain and God's promises about what's going to happen in the future

Become empty and yet there are those who will say oh, that's not a heresy It may be unbiblical, but it's not a heresy and I say no you cannot go that you cannot go that direction

But again, this whole issue of what is and what is not truth takes us back to a willingness to speak the truth and to Take the lumps when they come because we will take them when we take these stands.

That's absolutely right I'm enjoying your program today, and I'll continue. All right. Thank you very much for listening. God. Thank you that opens up two phone lines right now at 602 two seven four thirteen sixty or one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty

Dennis Jennifer will get back to you right after this break Welcome back the dividing line we have about 12 minutes left and we have one line open now at 602 two seven four thirteen sixty

One triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty Dennis your comment today. Hey there.

How are you, sir? Yeah, didn't have to use a acronym of pseudonym or anything else to get into that pseudo means false.

Okay I use my actual initials my actual middle name when I'm sick and tired of Rich remind me we need to renew

Dennis's Prozac prescription. Okay. All right, Dennis. Go ahead Because the one thing the most recent issue has a short interview with Gregory Boyd The professor of theology

Bethel Seminary it is referred to it is what is the what does he have to say? Oh what you would expect?

Okay. Yeah. Well, I should subscribe but I there are lots of things I should subscribe to that I don't so thank you for noting that I know that John Piper has been fighting for years to To have

Boyd removed from that denomination and sadly, I believe the last time it came for a vote Not only was he not removed but it obviously is is to the point where in that denomination you can deny the omniscience of God or redefine it so radically as to make it meaningless and The official position of domination is you're okay

It's It is a Baptist nomination, but I've forgotten his specific name. It's mainly up in the north

Anyway, quick scripture second John chapter only Verse starting with verse 9

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both a father and the son verse 10

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine do not receive him into your house or stadium

Oh wait, I added that. Okay, sir Nor greet him verse 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds third

John chapter only Starting at verse 3 for I rejoice greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth

It is in you just as you walk in the truth. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth

Loved you do faithfully Whatever you do for the brethren for strangers who have borne witness of your love before the church

If you send them forward on the journey in a manner worthy of God who will you will do well because they went forth for his

Namesake taking nothing with the Gentiles. We ought We therefore ought to receive such that we may become fellow workers for the truth

Well, that's the impulse of love kind of being hung up on truth. I see Well, they have to go hand in hand and I I have a sneaking hunch

I'll try to keep an eye on the the monitor that I'm looking at even right now on on Thursday night and Because something tells me you you've probably written that date down and you'll be joining with us, right?

Yeah Nickname Come up with you call yourself

Al that's short for a lathe. Ah, which is a Greek word for truth. How's that? Well, that'll work anyway, do you see why it's a man of a stubborn

Armenian man? I mean he turned to mush or what? I don't know. What do you garbage

Someone just suggested maybe you could use Luther's child as your as your Nick when you call in or something along those lines

Well, I'm combination. I am half German. So I'm like feisty like Luther, but I try to be more rational and consistent like Calvin Hey, thanks for calling in today guys, we got two other colors.

Thanks a lot. All right. Bye. Bye 602 274 1360. Let's talk to Jennifer.

Hi Jennifer Hi, how you doing? Hi, I'm fine I agree with what you're teaching about the

Catholics because I grew up Catholic. Mm -hmm. So that is what they are taught Catechism and all that but like They're not really

Taught the Bible. I mean, it's it's not something that I spent 14 years there

They never recommended it to me. I just found it on my own So that's how can they understand?

Grace sufficiency of grace justification by grace to faith if they don't have that teaching

If they don't have the Bible someone has to go in there and actually teach them the

Bible and I know that at this point my sister started a youth group there where she's going to teach

Bible, but they're also making her learn certain other things that Catholics teach right right teach it by that perspective or whatever.

I'm not sure right Well, that's frequently what happens is that even when the Bible is taught it is taught from within the context of the traditions of the church so that you can even read through passages of Scripture that that are there that are clear and what they say, but if you if you

Present it within the context of the traditions of the church. It can fundamentally Alter the meaning of what the passage of the

Bible is saying and and you're right. There are For example, are you familiar with the charismatic renewal?

Sort of yeah. Yeah, that's a a movement in the Catholic Church. That's Resulted in a lot of people leaving the church because people began studying the

Bible on their own Outside of the traditional structure of the church, even though the leaders

Continued to promote the dogmas of Rome people reading the Bible started going, you know something Why is it the early

Christians could get along without believing in all this stuff about Purgatory and penances and all these sacraments and everything else if they could get along why can't we and so they it really did create a number of Converts outside of the

Roman Communion simply because they read the Bible and you said you you found the Bible on your own but I think what you probably would really admit is the

Lord directed you to it and Brought it to your attention so that he could draw you to yourself.

That's an act of grace in and of itself Right. Yes All righty.

Well, thanks for calling in today Jennifer. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye 602 two seven four thirteen sixty one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty and some

I'd say, you know three weeks ago after Dr. Geisler's comment about Rome you talk about indulgences this week

You've quoted him and you've said how can you say this? Are you picking on Norm? I mean this guy's this guy's been nice to you and you've said he's a nice guy

You've had dinner together and you've recommended other of his books his general introduction to the Bible and stuff like that What's what's what's the story here?

You know what when people that don't know better say things I just chalk it up to ignorance, but you know,

I do consider myself to be on very friendly terms with Norm Geisler and so when he says something like this because people do respect him and when

I know better, I'm gonna say something about it and I I am hoping that Norman Geisler is of the type of mentality

That that's exactly what he'd want someone to do and that he would not ask me in any way shape or form

To sit back and keep my mouth closed Especially when I think that there are clear factual issues that he has simply missed or doesn't understand or something along the lines in regards to Roman Catholicism and what

Roman Catholicism is really teaching and I think when we talk about Roman Catholic apologists and the defense of the

Roman Catholic faith I've got more experience than even Norman Geisler has in regards to debating the issue and interacting with their own individuals on the

Roman Catholic side, so I again when when someone says that We agree with Roman Catholicism on the total sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice in the cross for us that Statement has to be challenged that statement has to be shown to be untrue because it is untrue

That is to use a phrase in a way that strips it of all meaning

We do not agree in that way They say well, which is more important? Pointing out that Roman Catholicism as it defines itself is fundamentally contradictory with what the

Bible teaches Or is it more important to look at this ecumenical movement where you have?

liberals who are Lutherans and Presbyterians and Baptists, you know

Baptist liberals there is such a thing and Their complete compromise of everything at least with the conservative

Catholic We keep being told over and over and over again at least with the conservative Catholic you have the same

Foundation of a belief in the supernatural and the Bible and things like that Well, here's the difference between the two

In the one you're simply dealing with individuals who have a surface level shell of religiosity

But they have no inner reality when you're dealing with the liberals out there that do not believe

Christ rose from the dead that do not believe in The the Jesus Christ is God in the flesh that do not believe in the virgin birth.

You're simply dealing with unbelievers You're dealing with religious hypocrites When you deal with the conservative

Roman Catholic you're dealing with a full -fledged heretic Wow, listen how quiet it got out there

Even the cars got quiet There's a difference One doesn't have any particularly positive beliefs the liberal

The other has positive beliefs that are heresies and both leave the same place

The Apostle Paul didn't deal with religious liberals. Well, I'll take that back in a sense

He did the philosophers on Mars Hill who were sort of eclectic. Oh, let's just all worship. Everybody's gods

Yeah, okay, and he you know what he did. He proclaimed the gospel to them because they needed to be saved How did he deal with religious heretics

He said they were anathema under the curse of God So you see what

I'm saying is you can't stop the battle on either front God has not decreed that the church

Have rest from these battles. We must continually be there to defend the faith

That's what God's called us to do and that by his mercy is what we will be doing this Thursday evening 5 to 7

Straight talk live with Marty Minto. I hope you'll be with us then and be with us next week again here on the dividing line

The dividing line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega ministries You can contact us at 602 9 7 3 0 3 1 8 or you can write us at p .o

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