Worship Wars and Media with Theology Gals | Rapp Report Weekly 0012 | Striving for Eternity

Worship, Media, and the Need for Discernment

Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Welcome to The Wrap Report.

No, it's Theology Gals.

No, no, no. This is The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport.

No, it's Theology Gals with Colleen Sharp. Actually, it's both.

Well, if you're wondering, we're actually going to record this on both of our channels. And I'm Andrew Rapoport from The Wrap Report.

And I'm Colleen Sharp from Theology Gals.

And we came up, actually, you came up with this topic of discussion when I said that I was going to respond to one of your podcasts on the Sabbath. Uh oh, I'm going to get myself in trouble. Is a dispensationalist going to talk about Sabbath?

Well, not today.

Okay. Yeah, that will be the next joint Wrap Report Theology Gals episode. A dispensationalist and a covenant theologian discussing the Sabbath, which will be really fun.

In other words, you'll try to keep me straight when I talk about your position?

That's right. Well, I think the one thing I do think, and obviously won't get in deep into this topic, is I think unlike some people, you actually do understand our position.

I try to. So we want to talk today about media.

Yes, yes. The reason this came up is I've really noticed that there seems to be a lot less discernment among Christians on media. And what we're not saying is that you can never watch TV or listen to music.

That's not Christian. But what we do want to talk about is the necessity of discernment in the things that we watch and listen to.

There seems to be a lack of discernment, I think. And I think that really what we've seen is a change within the church. And it's worked down to the body. The people is the church. When I really think that a lot of this comes about the church marketing that's been going on with the megachurch movement and all the church growth movement, where the church wanted to be like the world to try to appease the world.

And people in the church started to realize, well, gee, I could be like that. And I really think it's had an effect where the people that make up the church no longer are looking to be distinct from the world, but like their churches trying to look like the world.

Right. You see it in worship services. I don't know if you've seen this thing going around social media, Andrew, but I finally I've seen it going around social media. And today I decided I need to watch this thing.

And it's about this Beyonce mass. Have you seen this?

I have not. OK. I talked about this and was like, what is this?

Well, there's this. I know nothing about Beyonce's music. But what they do, from what I can understand, because I couldn't even watch the whole thing. It was difficult to watch. But they've taken Beyonce songs and made it.

They actually do call it a Beyonce mass, though, and it's in San Francisco. And they've made it where you can take a Beyonce song and you can sing it to God, which really isn't far fetched from a lot of some of the crazy stuff in church today.

Right. Right. I've talked about before that I was in high school and one night my girlfriend and I, not girlfriend, but a friend. That's a girl. We're because I just realized some people might. OK.

They might assume. So let's go on that rabbit trail, because this is this is something I've been thinking about, is that the words we use. It's it's becoming a thing where almost everything that people say nowadays has some either sexual innuendo or changing of its meaning.

And you can't use words anymore. I was listening to a book on cassette. Well, not cassette CD, I guess, from Jonathan Edwards, and he was talking about. You know, having intercourse with God. And I went, what?

And then I realized he's using the word so totally different, but it showed me how the culture is affected that like intercourse only has one possible meaning anymore. Right.

That that's true. And I used to, you know, I'm I won't say how old I'm turning this 25. Yeah. Children almost that age. But, you know, I used to say I'm going out if I'm going out with my girlfriend tonight.

You know, I tell my boyfriend that. But what I meant was my friend, she was a girl. And so sometimes I say that. But I realized today, just like you said, that people might think, wait, what? You had a girlfriend?

And in no way, I never had a girlfriend in that way. But I would refer to my friends that were girls in that way. And but I think now that would be seen as people would make assumptions automatically.

My daughter came to church with us. This is one of those I may get myself in trouble if my pastor hears this. Right. So he was talking about his daughter and her best friend. I mean, these two do like everything together.

And they came back from a missions trip and he didn't provide enough context. Now, most of the people in the church knew his daughter and knew the friendship. But he referred to his daughter and her partner.

Right. And there's another another way. And that one, especially I would say probably in the last five to 10 years, has really taken on a specific meaning instead of what it maybe would have been 20 years ago.

Yeah, I mean, it really makes it hard for conversation sometimes because the words are changing so much. And I guess this does get to some of the cultural issues we want to talk about.

Right. Well, there's a story I started to tell about my friend, the girl. But we were in high school and I was over at her house one night. And I don't know exactly which one of us figured it out. But she said, you know what?

I could take this praise song and I could just change a few words and make it to my boyfriend. And it can be a song to my boyfriend. And there had at that point in time, and this is probably around 1990, in our church was kind of the worship wars that happened a lot in the 80s and 90s, whether we're going to sing hymns or praise music and whatnot.

But we sat there and figured out how many praise songs we could just change a few words and they would work for our boyfriends. And that was the night that I really said, OK, I'm not sure about some of these praise songs after all.

Well, I was the worship leader's nightmare when I was pastoring at church, because I would sit in the front row and he would do a new song every once in a while. And he would look at me and I would have just, son, he would see it.

But I'd point to myself. Then I'd point to the sky, point to myself, point to the sky. And he knew exactly what that meant. Is this song all about me or God? And it's OK to have some songs that are testimony, are about what God has done for you.

But I think it has to be balanced. And if it's not going to be balanced, it should be way out of balance in the way of songs about God and what he's done. Not what he's done for me, but what he's done, who he is.

And that was my way of kind of quietly letting the song leader know we shouldn't be doing this one again or we're doing too many about me.

Yeah. Well, even some things that you see in church, I saw something and I should have saved it because I don't have it right in front of me. But it was something like this summer series. We're going to take popular movies and we're going to watch them and then we're going to find the Christian meaning in them.

And the thing is, is that necessary, you know, and is that wise?

Well, I thought you were going to say. The thing is, is why are they always movies that are 30 years old?

Yeah. And I think they said it sounded like current popular movies. And of course, my mind is thinking what current popular movies are going to be appropriate to be shown in church for one. And so I think that there's a few things that happen, like you were saying, where they do not distinguish between Christians and the world, where there is an appropriate time to go and see a movie that may not be a Christian movie, if it's appropriate, if it's, you know, there's some that are not appropriate.

There is an appropriate time for that. That time is not Sunday morning. You've seen this, even I'm sure that you've seen it in the time since you've been a Christian, just how much worship services have changed.

When you see some of these mega churches, you know, they'll have practically, you know, it's like a carnival or a circus that they have going on instead of it being the corporate worship.

Instead of being about God. I did actually go to a church where afterwards there was a literal circus, but that's because right outside of the church, the town had a circus. But I mean, being that I travel and speak at a lot of different churches every year, I get to see a lot of different services.

So I get to see more than probably most people because I'm not going just to my church every week. Every other week I'm at someone else's church and I get to see a lot of different types of styles of music.

And to be honest, I'm glad when I'm in a church where we're singing mostly hymns because it's rare that you have that anymore. Not as rare in Presbyterian churches.

Right. So we sing hymns and psalms.

Yeah, I was going to say. In Presbyterian churches, it's more surprising if you get hymns because they're not psalms.

Well, depends on what kind of Presbyterian. I think in the OPC and PCA, you're going to find a majority of hymns more than the psalms.

Yeah. But, you know, the thing that's so frustrating with it is the singing of the songs is a form of teaching. I think this is what we've lost in many churches. They have changed the idea of singing to praise God and yet teach to becoming something where it is about trying to stir up an emotional feeling.

Why is it that the psalms, if you go through the psalms, you'll see most of our theology. If you take any theology book, you're going to see them quoting the psalms. The psalms have most of our theology.

Why? Because it was theology put to lyric. Theology put the song. And it was done so people who couldn't read, people who couldn't have a Bible could know theology, could know who God is. And this is the thing that's lacking.

Instead of using that time of corporate singing as a teaching time, we use it nowadays as a time of trying to generate an emotion. Right. And I think if you have lyrics that lift God up on high so much, then you're going to have no other response than to be in awe of how great God is.

And that is what will lift your heart in worship, in being of awe of God. I don't need to repeat the same phrase a dozen times until I get into this mantra type of thing. So I'm saying it over and over and over and over until like my heart starts knowing the words.

So I'm going to start feeling better about myself.

Right. Right. I mean, so many hymns and psalms, when I sing them in church, they bring me to tears. But it's not because I'm looking for some emotion that that's the reason why I'm worshiping God. It is for the reasons that you said.

When you sing about God and His grace and what He's done, you are in awe. It can be overwhelming just reflecting on His work and who He is.

You know, I don't know if you've ever had the experience when you just either something's either business in your life or sin in your life and you go to church, but you really don't feel like being there.

And by the way, if anyone's listening, those are the times you should go to church. Right. Right. Because that feeling is called guilt. And if we try to avoid the guilt, we're avoiding the very thing we need.

But when we do that, I have countless times in the past would go to church feeling that way. And by the time we get done with singing songs of worship to God, my heart's already changed because I sung about how great He is.

And by the time we get to the preaching of His word, I feel like being there. Now, sometimes it would be at the preaching of the word of God, but the majority of times it would happen when we're singing songs to God.

Now, in some churches that I go to, that wouldn't happen because the songs are all about me and I don't feel like being there in the first place.

Right. And singing about you is not going to bring you back to God's grace and His work on the cross and what it is that drives us to repentance and love of God.

And it really, I think, I think this gets to the heart of why are we singing? Are we singing for a teaching time? Are we singing because we are in awe of how great God is? Or are we singing to try to generate or manufacture some emotion so that people would be ready to worship?

Right. Well, one thing that I have noticed is when I was growing up, church was called the worship service. Now people will say, they'll refer to the worship just as the singing instead of the entire service as corporate worship of God.

And this goes back to the worship wars that you brought up. I mean, this was back in the 80s where worship styles were all the rage and churches were mentioning whether they have traditional or contemporary worship, referring to the style of music that they had.

And I remember in college, which was only a few years ago. That's right. And but I had a friend of mine come to church with me and I was going to a fundamentalist Baptist church, King James, not King James only, but we use King James.

And we got done. And he said, you know, I it was a good I asked him how like service. He's like, it's a good service, but there was no worship. What do you mean there was no worship? He's like, well, there was no like singing and all that made me feel really good.

And I really got me wondering because from my background, and as you know, I'm from a Jewish background, the word worship meant to bow down. That's how I had looked at that. And I said, you know, I need to look at what this actually means.

And so I had spent the summer because I had next see next semester. I had to teach a Bible study and I was looking for topics to teach. So I spent the summer studying the topic of worship and I ended up working on a biblical theology of worship.

One of the things I found is that almost everywhere the word for worship means to bow down. It's one of the reasons when if you ever if you would look at the Western Wall, the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, you'll see people and they're bowing as they're doing their prayers.

Well, they're bowing. That's their worship, literally bowing. And this is what the word actually means. What is it? What does it have the idea of? Well, it's the idea of people who are submitting themselves to someone who is a greater authority than them.

It actually has the word worship from worth ship is the idea of someone finding worth in someone. It's to be in awe of God. That's what worship is. It's not about the style of music. And this is how the words that we use have changed.

Yeah, that's a that's a really good, really good point. Because when you had the worship service, it included the entire service, including the giving of money. Yeah, right. I mean, in the Presbyterian side, we we talk about this a lot and believe in the regulative principle of worship that we even look and and see how does God say that he is to be worshipped?

Because I think worship and and even even for those who do not fully hold to it, there are many that still do take this serious, even if they don't fully hold to the regulative principle of worship. But the thing is, is that worship has become more about about me and and what emotions that I can have.

And I had a situation when I was in high school and I had a friend and he was not a Christian. And so I invited him to church. And this this friend, he really he was an excellent musician and he really understood music.

And he said, and at this particular church that he came to with me, there was a lot of the praise and worship songs. And he said, you know that the way that those tunes are, that they're actually intended to bring about certain emotions.

And he said, just like if you watch a movie that will have certain music in the background, that is that the point is to make you feel a certain thing. So if you watch a horror movie, which I never watch horror movies, but if if you do or you watch some dramatic movie, if it's coming upon a certain scene, you might hear a certain kind of music that puts you on the edge of your seat.

Or if it's a love story, it'll be certain music that will make you feel good about the scene. And so that really changed the way I saw it because I thought, wow, so some of these tunes, the intention is actually to make you feel a certain thing.

And when we did the episode on the new apostolic reformation, Amy Spreeman talked about this when in NAR, they use something called whole tones, which is intended to bring about something too. And so you can I can listen to a a beautiful classical piece of music that has nothing to do with a hymn or a psalm or worship of God, and it can make me feel good.

And so what what exactly are we feeling? What is the point of of our worship? Have we forgotten to focus on on the object of our worship and we look more inward than we do outward?

And you're referring to Episode 62 of Theology Gals. That could be heard at Theology Gals. Actually, it's TheologyDeskGals. .Blueberry .com.

Until we get the new website, which my poor listeners have been waiting forever, but I promise it will be coming soon. But yeah, an episode, if you're not familiar with the new apostolic reformation, I think it's going to end up one of our most listened to episodes ever, because and if you don't know what it is, go and listen to it, because you probably have run into some of these things in the church and didn't even know it.

And I'll probably have to redrop at some point in the future, maybe shortly after this one drops, now that I mention it. But so listen for a future episode of The Wrap Report Weekly. But I had an interview that we had on a previous network with Justin Peters.

And in that we talked about the charismatic Catholic. And a lot of people didn't know that charismaticism is running rampant within the Catholic Church. And the thing that he had mentioned is that if you don't have the music, you don't have the charismaticism and the whole faith healing movement.

He said they'll go for hours until they get that emotional stirred up. And that's why you see if you see like the Benny Hinn crusades and all those, you see everyone there almost in that hypnotic state because they have the music going over and over and over until everyone gets into that state.

He also mentioned in there, which is really interesting, because he gave a list of things. He said, where do you see speaking of tongues and the swaying and this music and all this stuff? And you think the answer is going to be in the word of faith movement.

And he says, no, in Hinduism, the Konalini Hindus have the same exact, they speak in tongues, everything that you end up seeing in that emotional word of faith movement. But if you remove the music, you remove their whole thing.

You can't have that.

That's interesting. Yeah, I did it when I did a study on the history of speaking in tongues. I found that, I mean, throughout history, we had Gnostics in the early church that did something like modern day tongues, because it's not actually speaking in tongues like scripture talks about.

And, but I also learned that Mormons in early in the Mormon church also did. And so it's really interesting to see these different movements that that did the same exact thing. So it's really very interesting because you see after the first century and you mentioned biblically tongues were languages.

It's one of the things I loved about the Holman translation when they had it as the Holman and not the Christian standard they are today because they translated it as languages. Those languages are mentioned in Acts chapter two.

So the only place where you see a reference to an angelic language, which everyone seems to speak angelic languages, every charismatic I know when I was involved in the movement, everyone speaks angelic languages.

When I read first Corinthians 13, one and two, you end up seeing that it's called sarcasm. Maybe it's because I have a black belt in sarcasm that I recognize, but, you know, and I have, if you go to strivingforattorney .org and just do a search for tongues, there's a paper I have that goes through first Corinthians 12, 13, 14 in context.

And what I found in there is I was in the charismatic movement because I didn't know any better. I came from a Jewish background, didn't know Christians for two years. It was just me and a Bible until I, well, when I started driving, I found Christian radio, Harold Camping, and I thought he was the bomb.

He sounded so authoritative. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about. I thought he was the greatest thing until I actually learned my Bible better. But the thing was, is that, you know, I got involved in the charismatic movement in college and didn't know any different.

And I remember sitting in a Bible study and one person was telling another person, well, not everyone believes that those gifts continued and went, wait, what? And I went home that night and decided I was going to read first Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 in one sitting.

And in doing that, I realized all the verses that I was told this means this and this means this, this means this. When I read it in context, I realized that Paul was saying the exact opposite of everything I was being taught.

And if you look at the passage, we're referring to that, or at least I'm referring to in first Corinthians 13 in verses one and two, I take two purposely because he's going to say in first Corinthians 13, one, when we look at that, I'm just going to read that.

Of course, I have a new Bible. It's pages are sticking.

The new MacArthur study Bible.

No, this is my. OK, this is my. So and as you so you're referring to. Well, not the MacArthur study Bible, but I guess the preacher's Bible preacher's Bible. And so this would be a good plug for where we are giving away a MacArthur ESV.

No, sorry, NSA and ASB study Bible. They're not saved by a Bible preacher's Bible. And the thing about the preacher's Bible, it is great for note taking. If you are a note taker and you like the NASB, this is the best because you can always use it as a, you know, anchor for your boat if you needed to.

It's about like that big. It's like eight pounds. I think it's it's it's heavy. It's not something you want to carry to church. It's actually designed for the preacher to lay flat at the pulpit. But you write in that and it's not bleeding through.

The reason it's so heavy and so big is because the pages are thick.

It's just really good quality. It's like it's not a study. It's not a study Bible with notes. It's an actual just Bible that happens to have room. I've seen some pictures of it room in the margins to write notes.

Thicker pages. And OK, and so where can people enter you?

It's for you to have for your study Bible so you could pass it on to the next generation. That's really what it is. John MacArthur wanted it so that he's got his grandfather's Bible and he wanted a Bible that's going to last.

His grandfather's Bible is falling apart. And the way to enter is you have to you have to hopefully listen and subscribe to the rap report. But if you write a review for us on iTunes, that's one way to enter.

Or to email us at info at striving for attorney dot org. And either give us some topics you want us to talk about or let us know what you think about our podcast. Good or bad. And that's how you enter.

But you also have to follow us on Twitter. And the way to follow us is at Andrew Rapport on Twitter or follow striving for attorney ministries on Facebook. But the Bible I'm actually holding is the next one that we're going to give away probably in the summer, which is a nice goat skin ESV.

Because some people are saying, well, I don't use new American standards. So I was given this nice goat skin ESV. But here back to First Corinthians 13.

Yes, I know we get in little rabbit trails here, but go ahead with First Corinthians 13.

I had a friend of mine that once told me, he says, and this is more of an old browser type thing for people who use the Internet years ago and used to have bookmarks before Google. And you had to now everyone just Googles it.

He said, I was with you. It's like it's like just you bookmark the conversation and you always back up to it. But First Corinthians 13, one and two says this. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

And so this is the only passage in the Bible that refers to some maybe an angelic language. Why do I say maybe? I don't think he's actually saying there is an angelic language. He's saying, if I speak of the language of men, even of angels, but I have not love, I'm a noisy cymbal, a clanging cymbal, a noisy gong clanging cymbal.

Now, the emphasis is on the love. First off, he's not trying to teach that there's angelic languages, but he's using sarcasm. How do I know that? Because of verse two. And if I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge.

And if I have all faith, so to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. So you see the same pattern that he's using. He's escalating it and then exaggerating it and then comparing it to love and saying love is the more important thing.

And all these miraculous things, I have all these gifts, but love is the most important. And so if I had all knowledge and understood all mysteries, what would you call me? God. Yeah, exactly. So is Paul claiming he's God?

No. No, he's using sarcasm there. And if he's using sarcasm in verse two, I think he's using it in verse one as well. That's also a little bit of how to interpret the Bible there, too. I mean, these are just little things that if you learn how to interpret the Bible, these things become very clear to lay out.

And there may be listeners who are saying, dude, I believe in tongues. I speak in tongues. And, you know, you just don't understand. Maybe you were taught wrong. We could do a whole episode on that and explain that.

But the point of this is that most of the very, very charismatic churches, especially the word of faith churches, the NAR churches, are not going to be able to do their services unless they have that music creating the emotion.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of the tongues comes from. But you actually bring up a really important point, and that is how we read scripture and understanding scripture in its context. Because I've been talking with a friend and actually talked to her for a few hours on the phone today.

And she knows some people that have got sucked into Hebrew roots. So she was asking me some questions about things that they were claiming. And a lot of the things that they claim, they literally just take a verse over here out of context and over here out of context instead of actually understanding what is actually being said.

And so I think we see a lot of that even in NAR, where they will use scripture, but they're not using it in context.

Well, you see this in a lot of groups. I don't know what's up with Hebrew roots. I have been coming upon, I got asked this again today. This is becoming something I may have to start studying it because it really is coming up a lot.

They're different than the black Hebrew Israelites, but they interpret scripture similarly. And the way, the thing that you're going to see consistent with both groups is this misapplication of Isaiah 28 and verse 10.

They both do this and it is frustrating. I will have black Hebrew Israelites tell me that I don't know how to read the Bible because I think that I should read it like a novel. And they go to Isaiah 28, 10, and they'll just quote the one verse for it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

And the interesting thing is the only thing they ever want to focus on is that last phrase, here a little, there a little. Because if they actually read the first two parts of that, precept upon precept, and that's repeated, line upon line, and that's repeated, that would tell you, you shouldn't just grab here a little, there a little, the way they interpret that last part.

It's, you're taking the concept one after the other, the lines one after the other, not just grabbing one from the air, grabbing another from the air, and slamming them together. That is one of the ways not to interpret the Bible, it's called isolation.

And what isolationism is, is where you grab a verse, and you rip it out of its context, and you give it a new meaning. And really what they do is they do that with several verses, and they put them together, and that's called proof texting.

And proof texting is where you take different verses, often ripping them out of their context, isolating them from the context, and putting them together to prove a point that the Scriptures never actually proved.

One thing that's very interesting that she shared with me, because she had joined a women's group with Hebrew Roots people, and she said that anyone who has even a little bit of biblical knowledge, that the admin of the group will pretty much mark you and kick you out.

And you're not to question anything, they're very into being Torah observant. Today, she was, one of them was saying that the Puritans were Torah observant, and just a complete misunderstanding of what exactly the Puritans believed about things like the Sabbath.

It was not, it was not the same way as what they're doing, and they were not Torah observant. They held strongly to the moral law, and they believed the Sabbath was part of the moral law, but they were not what these people were claiming.

And I just, I finally said to her, are they just making stuff up? Because some of the stuff was, I think that what happens is people say stuff, and then other people repeat it. But I, in talking to her, I just realized just how little actual biblical knowledge that they have.

And I think that you're right, that you should study this, Andrew, with your book, What Do They Believe? It would be a good addition to that, because I think it's becoming more influential, and people are being deceived by it.

Because this friend of mine has known people that are being deceived by it.

And it's exactly opposite to what Scripture says. In Acts, Paul commends the Bereans. Why? Because they take what he says and what the Torah says verbatim? No. He praised the Bereans, because what they did was look at what Paul said, compared it to Scripture, to see if these things were so.

Paul saw that as a mark of maturity. And if a group is saying, oh, oh, you know something about Scripture? Okay, please leave. That's a sign they only want the immature to do is what Paul said in Ephesians.

They want to take the immature so they'd be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

Right. She said to me that if somebody sounds too smart, almost, that they'll kick them out. It's almost like they just want an echo chamber, and they don't want anyone to question anything. And it's really sad, especially because I think that there are a lot of people out there that are searching, and they're looking for something.

And then they happen upon something like this, and then they're being deceived.

You know, and you mentioned my book, What Do We Believe? And the reason I wrote it the way that I did, which is, I mean, for someone like you who likes studying theology, you could get it. And it could be a quick reference for you, and you can enjoy reading it.

You could learn good theology.

You know, we talk about the dispensationalism. Yeah, we'll talk about it. I actually was talking about your other book, but okay.

No, but seriously, the thing that's lacking is the fact that people don't want to study theology anymore. They get like a Grudem's Systematic Theology or MacArthur's new thing called Biblical Doctrine, and they're thick, and they're heavy, and people go, oh, that's daunting.

I wanted something that was easy to read. Someone that doesn't know theology could get through it, and actually read it a couple times, because the more you read it, I tried to read it at reaching different levels.

So if you're brand new to theology, you can understand these things. If you know theology, you can still pick up some stuff. You know, even like the lesson on the church, Presbyterians can learn a lot about how the word church has changed over time.

It's not Israel.

That's another podcast we'll have to do. But I want you to talk about your other book, not What Do We Believe, but the What Do They Believe. I want you to explain that one.