December 15, 2020 Show with Dr. Tom Ascol on “Announcing the Institute of Public Theology”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 15th day of December, 2020.

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And I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest, Dr. Tom Askle, a dear friend of mine for many years.

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He is an author, a conference speaker, and president of Founders Ministries, in addition to being senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, and I'm so honored that he has selected my program to declare some very exciting breaking news on Founders Ministries that was such a secret,

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I don't even know what it is. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back, Dr. Tom Askle.

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Thank you, Chris. It's good to be with you, and yeah, we have tried to keep things under wraps until the appropriate time, and that appropriate time is now.

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In fact, I just was off the phone with some very dear friends of mine, and they said, �Man, why haven't you told us?

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Why haven't you told us ?� And I said, �You know, that upsets us ,� and I said, �Well, I'm just wondering how upset my wife's going to be when she finds out if she listens to this program not only have non -Reformed people listening, but even non -Christians listening on occasion.

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So why don't you tell our listeners about Founders Ministries, first and foremost? Yeah. Well, Founders is a ministry that began back in 1985, and it's been around for a long time.

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It was a prayer meeting the year before, and seven men got together to say, �Lord, what should we do ?�

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There was a lot of controversy over the inerrancy of Scripture back then, and we all were inerrantists, but we knew that you had to, at some point, determine what the

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Bible that is inerrant actually says. And so God had taught us doctrines that were wonderful and exciting and true, and so because of that, we had all come to the

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Reformed understanding of salvation and believed that that needed to be taught. So out of that prayer meeting, we decided to have a conference.

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We had one in 1983. We weren't sure who would show up, if anybody would, and there were about 100 guys that showed up.

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We were surprised. So from that, this ministry has developed so that we finally changed the name of it to Founders Ministries, and we have a theological journal once a quarter that we publish online.

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We have an online study center that's been around since 2003, where we've trained probably close to 2 ,000 students around the world in theological education.

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We have conferences. We have a national conference that meets in January now down here in southwest Florida, Cape Coral, where I pastor

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Grace Baptist Church. We publish books, and we have seminars for pastors.

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We just do things that we can to try to encourage and facilitate the recovery of the gospel and reformation of local churches.

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So that's kind of the shorthand version of what we're about. If you want more information, you can go to Founders .org,

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and you can find out more of the things we're doing. In fact, I've just received a note, though, that our website has crashed because of people accessing it, so we'll get it back up to speed as soon as we can.

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And now, tell us about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, which is a church that I have known about probably as long as I have been a

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Christian, which goes back to the mid -1980s, having been raised Roman Catholic and rescued by the mercy of God and His sovereignty out of that false church and giving me eternal life.

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Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral was a church that would frequently come up in conversation at the church where I was saved,

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which later became, after a merger, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, and now the church where I'm a member in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle.

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The founder of that church back in the 1950s was, after he had left

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Pennsylvania, a long -time member of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, and that would be

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Ernie Reisinger. But if you could, tell us about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

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I sure will. Well, first, I've got to tell you that down here in Florida, we knew him as Ernie Reisinger. That's right, I heard that the brothers had disagreed.

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I'm sorry, but what were you saying? I said, there's a funny story about that, because his son is still in our church, and he's

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Don Reisinger, and Ernie did pronounce his name Reisinger, and his brother John, the late

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John Reisinger, pronounced it that way, but he met a professor, I think a linguistics professor or something, and told him that the proper

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German pronunciation was Reisinger, and so Ernie just announced one day that our name is no longer

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Reisinger, it's now Reisinger. He didn't convince many people besides himself, but he started introducing himself that way, so I knew him as Ernie Reisinger.

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But yeah, he was a dear friend, and spoke so highly, and I've been able to be in the church at Carlisle on a couple of occasions, and just love that church, and praise

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God for the long -standing work there. Grace Baptist Church here in Cape Coral was about three years old when

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I came to be the pastor in 1986. I'm the second pastor, and it was started without a real good, solid understanding of what a church is, and biblical theology, but the people who were left when

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I got here were in need of guidance and help, and I've had experiences out in Texas where I'm from, and pastor of a church out there that was an assistant pastor of a church, and had resigned that position while still doing some seminary work, and I tell people that man, this was a church that was in bad shape, nobody wanted it, and I was a pastor in bad shape, nobody wanted me, and so it was just like a match made in heaven, you know, that God put us together, and I've been able to stay here since 1986, it's a wonderful congregation today, the people are just so gracious, and humble, and joyful, and loving, and they tolerated me for nearly 35 years, so that tells you all that you need to know about them if you know me, that they've been willing to put up with and encourage me over that time.

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So I've raised a family here, got six kids, my wife and I are enjoying now 13, almost 14 grandkids, the 14th is due in a couple of months, and they're all right here, all of our kids except my oldest who's in Texas are with us in the church, faithful, and so we get to see our grandchildren worship with them, we just see that as God's kindness to us.

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Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, you can go to their website, which is truegraceofgod .org,

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truegraceofgod .org, and please send my greetings to my very dear friends

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Frank and Carmen Gilberty, who were precious, very important friends of my late wife's and mine when they were living on Long Island, and when

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Frank was a deacon at First Baptist Church of Lindenhurst, Long Island, and there are a lot, a lot of precious memories that I have of fellowship with both of them, and I know that they are members there now in Cape Coral, and if I'm not mistaken,

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I think the son of one of my dearest friends, Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, I believe his son is a member there, or at least was.

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Yeah, Rick was a member here, but whenever the economy tanked back in 2010 or so, his business really suffered, so they moved to Houston, Texas, and that's where they are now, but we still have contact with him, he's still faithful in Christ and serving the

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Lord, so we miss him, but we're grateful that God's using him out there in Texas. Amen. Well, I don't have a drumroll sound effect ready.

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Yeah, well, Chris, thank you so much for having me on and letting me be on this particular day, because we,

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Founders Ministries, is today announcing the formation of what we're calling the

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Institute of Public Theology, and this will be a Christian educational center committed to training primarily men for pastoral ministry and public theology from an

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Orthodox confessional perspective. It's the outgrowth of a lot of what

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Founders has been doing since our inception, and particularly with the Founders Online Study Center since 2003.

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What's happened is we've had people, well, for decades, people have asked us, you know, will you guys start a school, why don't you start a seminary, where would you send somebody to go for ministerial training?

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And we've praised God for the good schools that have existed and do exist, and I remember being in rooms back 30 years ago with Joel Beakey and Jim Elliffe and others as we were looking for some type of theological training.

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Wow, that is some coincidence. Just about 30 seconds ago, Jim Elliffe sent me an email.

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Did he really? Yes. He'll remember the conversation, and that was long before Puritan Reform Seminary existed that Joel leads now.

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There weren't a lot of good conservative options in seminaries back then, but God's done a wonderful work, and so we've seen good things happen.

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But over the last four or five years, that renewed interest has been kindled again, and people have come to us and said, would you guys do something, because now what's happened, as you are well aware of, is there's been these ideologies that have arisen through the critical social justice movement, and those ideologies have affected many institutions and churches, and so folks are looking for a place where they can learn how to think biblically and deal with the changing currents that are in our society without compromising

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God's Word. And founders have been trying to do this. We've published the By What Standard Synodoc.

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Last year, we were doing this Wield the Sword project that now has two episodes available on Amazon Prime that are trying to show what the

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Bible is, how the Bible relates to everyday life, and we are just committed to recognizing that Christ is

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Lord of all, and there's not any area of life, not any endeavor that we can put our hands to that we should try to engage in without doing so before His face and under His Lordship.

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So we believe the Bible speaks to everything that we are engaged in in the world, and that we ought to be thinking biblically.

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So with the increased interest and people appealing to us, coming to us, we just put our heads together.

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During this COVID pandemic, we actually started talking about a year ago or a little less, and then when the pandemic hit and lives were disrupted,

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I remember where I was walking in Cape Coral whenever I sent a message to a friend and said, hey, you know, we need to do something.

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And from that initial message, the phone conversations, and what God's done over the last many, many months, we've now come to a point where we are announcing this

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Institute of Public Theology. And it's got four founding faculty members of the Institute.

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So there's myself and Jared Longshore. Jared is the Vice President of Founders, served with me here at the

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Church for the last nearly six years. A dear friend, a Ph .D. from Southern Seminary, just a brilliant young man.

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The best radio voice in existence. Oh, I know it. I know it. I always hate to speak after him, you know, because nobody hears what

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I say. I mean, if I speak at the same time that he's speaking,

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I sound like a girl. Let's face it. I know. I know. Isn't that funny? So anyway, but Jared's just, you know, he's a wonderful, wonderful brother.

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He's been very much involved in the development of this Institute. So he's going to be a faculty member.

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And then we're going to have Tom Nettles, who'll be one of the founding faculty members as well. Praise God.

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A dear friend of mine. Oh, yeah. And Tom, great. You know, and we've talked extensively about what he brings to the table in terms of his understanding of history and suffering in history,

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Christian martyrdom, and how God's people, in order to advance, have had to stand against the world.

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And so he's going to be bringing his expertise to bear on courses that he'll teach for us here. And then the fourth of the founding faculty members is

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Vodie Baucom, my dear friend. Wow. Now in Zambia and is the founding dean of the

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African Christian University there. He'll continue in that role, but he will serve as one of the founding faculty members of the

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Institute of Public Theology as well. I'm going to be the founding president. Jared will serve as my vice president and the dean to kind of help us get all the curriculum going.

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We have some adjunct professors that are just top shelf that have already signed on with us and several more that are in the works that we're talking to.

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So I won't mention all of them. And you can go to the website, the founders .org website. You'll see avenues to get to the

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Institute of Public Theology. And you can read all the detailed information. There's frequently asked questions there that you can access as well.

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But in addition to those four founding faculty members, we've got Jim Ork, who most recently taught for like 20 years at the

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Boyce Bible College in Louisville associated with Southern Seminary. We've got Mark Coppinger, who also is recently retired from full -time teaching at the

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Southern Seminary. Before that, Mark taught at Wheaton. He taught at Vanderbilt. He was president of the

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Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's another dear friend. We've got Chad Vegas, who is the founder.

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Oh, yeah. He is extraordinary. I heard him preach at a

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Banner of Truth conference two years ago. Yeah. And I immediately approached him afterwards and I said, not only do

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I have to get you on my show, but I have to get you to speak at one of my biannual pastor's luncheons, which he agreed to do.

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And it hasn't occurred yet because of COVID hanging everything up. But I hopefully will get him out here from the

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West Coast over here to Pennsylvania to do that. Well, Chad's an amazing man.

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He's started several fruitful organizations, including

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Radius International, which is one of the most significant missiological organizations I know about in training for cross -cultural missions.

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And so he's going to be teaching missions for us. And then we also have James Dolezal, who...

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, James. World that is in God. That's right. That's right. He's going to be our keynote speaker at our

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Founders Conference next month here in Cape Coral. It's going to be the 20th through the 24th of January.

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James is the key guy. And it's on the doctrine of God. You know, the only... The God who is, the one true

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God, is what the theme of the conference is. So James will be doing philosophical theology for us and theology proper.

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And so there's some others as well. Travis Allen is a good friend of mine who was out with John MacArthur at Grace to You for many years.

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Travis is a former Navy SEAL. He's now a pastor in Colorado, incredible Bible expositor, and exegy, really gifted in teaching the

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Word and the languages. So we're grateful to have these caliber of men who are on board with this effort.

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We're looking forward to launching our first classes in the fall of 2021.

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We'll open registration sometime in the spring of 2021,

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God willing, and hit the ground running. Most of the courses will be taught in a modular format so people can take them like in week intensives.

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So we will have some semester -long courses as well. And you don't have to live in Cape Coral to participate.

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You can live in Cape Coral to participate. But we're going to be doing some online deliverables as well for the course structures.

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It will be about a 66 -hour program. So we've looked at what typically is taught in theological training institutions and tried to just limit it to the essence and give it a significant flavor that understands the challenges that Christians and especially pastors are facing now and will continue to face in the

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West, particularly in the United States and North America, because the culture has changed and there's increased hostility as we've certainly witnessed during this last nine, ten months or so in our nation.

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And we have every reason to anticipate that's only going to intensify. And we want to prepare men and other

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Christians, not just pastors. This isn't going to be limited to pastors or aspiring pastors, but we're shooting for that particular target of student.

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But we want to prepare people to understand the gospel, to see how the gospel relates to every area of life, to understand the times, and to know what

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God's people ought to do. So it's Christ above all earthly powers.

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That's our theme. We want to see Jesus Christ exalted and recognize that his word is relevant to everything.

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Early on in some of the discussions that I was having with people that were interested and going to come on board to help us, is

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I said, look, here's what we want in terms of instructors, teachers, professors at this institute. We want men of strong conviction, confessional conviction, who have blood mixed with their convictions, who know what it is to take a stand and to not budge from that stand despite all kinds of opposition.

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And I believe that's precisely what the Lord is assembling in that. I couldn't be more excited. We're praying that God will use this in his kingdom for great good for generations to come.

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Now, again, the name is the Institute of Public Theology?

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That's correct. And if you could explain exactly what you mean by public theology. Yeah, we mean theology that has shoe leather attached to it.

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So it's theology that goes beyond the church, goes beyond the ivory tower, that is relevant in the kitchen, is relevant in the boardroom, is relevant at the work site.

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So political theology will be a component of this. We believe that the Bible speaks to political endeavors.

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We believe the Bible speaks to every relationship. The Bible speaks to how we work, how we earn money, how we utilize money, how we save money.

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It speaks to how we enjoy things in this world, to vocation and avocation, to entertainment and recreation.

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So it's wanting to see the Word of God understood and applied to every sphere of life.

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And, you know, people have done this throughout church history, so it's not like we're doing something new. It's just we're trying to understand how to do that better given the days in which we live.

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And certainly what we've seen over the last year, I mean, this is 2020, with all of the challenges that have come to churches and Christians, we couldn't have anticipated it last year at this time, but it has happened.

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And what we've discovered in the face of those challenges is that too often, in too many ways, many of us were just simply not prepared.

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We weren't ready for what hit us, and consequently we got knocked off course and disoriented by some of those challenges.

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Well, we want to try to help people, God's people, to understand the Word sufficiently well that we can look at the challenges and say, yes, this is

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God's world. He's placed us in here and now, and what we have in Jesus Christ is sufficient.

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And we're not going to back away. We're not going to go cower somewhere. We're not going to just go back to a little evangelical ghetto.

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We're going to stand for Jesus, live for Jesus, if need be suffer for Jesus and die for Jesus, and we're going to do it with joy because of what we have in this

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Gospel. You know, if you had said those very things, you know, just a few years ago,

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I might have even thought in my head, as well as many people listening, that's just a lot of lofty talk.

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But the way that our nation is spiraling down into a very scary and dark realm,

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I do not put it past the realm of reality and realistic fear that within our lifetimes, our lives may be actually in peril by preaching openly the

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Gospel and also everything that the Bible would command us to declare publicly, that today, as it is, could very easily get you fired from a career that you have, even a career that in some ways is affiliated with conservative evangelicalism.

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It could get you blackballed from being hired. It could have you shunned by neighbors and family members, and who knows how much more severe this is going to continue to spiral out of control.

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Yeah, Chris, you're exactly right, and I've talked to those people. I mean, I can hardly keep up with the amount of contacts that I've had just personally, and then it's multiplied through Founders, from folks around the nation, particularly in the

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United States. But North America, we heard from Canadians just yesterday, and then other places in the world, too, but especially here in North America, people who have faced every situation you just described.

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I'm thinking of one man that works in the athletic department at Power 5 school, and this stuff was brought in, and they began to say, you have to teach these values, you have to read these books, and this is what we're going to do now.

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We're buying into the whole social justice movement, and you've got to read

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Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility, that's what we're going to be teaching from now on. And they're saying, what do we do as Christians?

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And I've told more than a few of them, you need to be prepared to be fired, or try to find another job, and some have tried to find other jobs.

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It's everywhere, and there are folks who have suffered the consequence. I know people personally, very close to me, who have turned down promotions because with the promotion went requirements to start advocating these worldviews that are contrary to the word of God.

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And they said, we're not going to do that. Some have switched careers because of that. So it's here, and we don't have any reason to think it's going to go away anytime soon, but neither should

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Christians think, oh no, it's bad, we've got to go and pull the covers over our head and hope when we wake up it'll all be better.

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No, this is a time for Christians to stand, this is a time for us to shine, and we're not going to be able to do that if we're not well equipped with the word, understanding what the word says, recognizing that none of this is unusual in church history.

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What we've been living through in the last 200 years in America has been unusual in terms of freedoms we've had.

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But most of our brothers and sisters for most of history and most places in the world have not known what we've enjoyed.

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And as these things begin to evaporate, we can't just run away. We've got to joyfully, winsomely stand for Jesus Christ with boldness, without fear, and with a determination to make disciples, because that's our mission.

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So we want to be helpful in encouraging Christians to think about these things, to learn how to do this so that we can face whatever is coming to us in the years ahead with the kind of confidence that becomes those who are trusting in a crucified, risen

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King. We're going to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

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Tom Askell, and our sphere or our spectrum of questions that we will accept could be on any theological or doctrinal issue.

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Obviously, it would be most relevant if it involves Baptist theology and history, but obviously also, since we are primarily announcing and spreading the word about the new

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Institute of Public Theology, you can ask questions about that and basically anything you want that you would ask of any pastor or specifically theologian or historian from a

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Baptistic and Reformed background. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N - Z -E -N at gmail .com As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

27:42

USA, and please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you disagree with your own pastor over some theological issue, perhaps you're a pastor, you have come to embrace something that puts you at odds with your own fellow elders or the denomination where you pastor, whatever the issue is that would compel you to remain anonymous because it's a personal and private issue, we would obviously grant your request but if it's just a general question on theology, on history, on the

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Institute of Public Theology, on Founders Ministries, if it's just a general question please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

28:23

Don't go away we'll be right back with Dr. Tom Askell after these messages from our sponsors. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love.

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York. Pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net that's hopereformedli .net

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or call 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 are your works that my soul knows very well.

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He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what

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God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

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God's design and once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

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When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.

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Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

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God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

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Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Truck and Zion Radio and our guest today for the entire program is

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Dr. Tom Askell, author, conference speaker, president of Founders Ministries and senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

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Today we have been announcing for the very first time publicly that the Institute of Public Theology will begin classes in the not so distant future and we are also welcoming questions on theology, doctrine, church history, and other things related to the

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Christian faith and probably primarily from a Reformed and Baptistic point of view.

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And our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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U .S .A. and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And if you could,

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Dr. Askell, repeat when you expect to be offering these courses? Yes, we hope to open up registration in the spring of 2021 and then our first courses will be offered in the fall of 2021.

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So that's the time frame we're operating on. We've got more information that we'll be putting up on the website at founders .org,

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so you can go there and access the developing timeline as it rolls out.

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Great. We have an anonymous listener who says, I have very dear friends who are black folks and it is a very touchy situation to bring up my differences over what has been called the woke movement.

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Do you have any counsel on how to disagree with loved ones and friends and acquaintances without initially getting them to think immediately that you are a racist and therefore they're not going to hear anything else that you have to say?

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Yeah, that's a great question and it's a problem that has plagued many relationships that have gone with different races involved in them.

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Vody Balkin is one of my dearest friends. Vody said publicly at a conference a couple of years ago

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Founders Conference that what's going on in this critical social justice movement and with critical race theory particularly is stifling good fellowship and honest interactions between blacks and whites.

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He said like, Tom, there's some things he can't say or he'd be afraid to say given the context of what's going on in our culture today and that's tragic.

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Christian brothers and sisters ought always be able to speak openly and honestly to each other and yet because these ideologies are so pervasive and they've been so persuasive to many and they've infiltrated the thinking of many that certain things if you disagree with or even question can get you labeled racist automatically.

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It's just because of the way that this ideology works. So what I would encourage your listener to do is to affirm everything that you can affirm that is being said by those who perhaps are not seeing these issues the way that we think they ought to be seen in light of scripture.

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So often people will tell me you know after we talk a little while so man you're not a racist. I heard you were a racist.

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Well no I'm not a racist and I'm not a bigot and you know I'm not a misogynist and if we could sit around and have a cup of coffee and talk together we'd learn that about one another far better than just the labels that are thrown around.

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So if you can say yes there's there is racism exists it's horrible and yes there have been horrific things done in the name of the supremacy of whites over blacks in our history and in this nation and slavery and Jim Crow and redlining all of those things are horrific.

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There's no doubt about that and we Christians ought to call evil evil and good good.

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We don't have any reason to be embarrassed or hesitant to face the truth in any area of reality but with that then to begin to try to get underneath some of the concerns that are being expressed today is okay what is it that you're actually saying?

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Robin DiAngelo, white fragility, the anti -racist how to be an anti -racist movement.

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These ways of thinking say well you don't have to have a person who is a racist in order for racism to exist because racism is inherent in the way that this society operates and whenever you start asking the question what do you mean by that and what is your evidence for that you know or how are you making your judgments?

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Can you show me the basis on which you're making your judgments? If you can have that kind of non -threatening disarming conversation ask those questions in a way they're not intimidating not indicting but genuinely wanting to know then oftentimes some real good results come from it.

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I've got friends that I disagree with on these issues and we've been able to maintain our friendship though we don't we do disagree on these issues but it's because we've been able to have those kind of conversations and ask those kind of questions.

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So I think if you can affirm everything that you do affirm that you know would be consistent with some of their concerns and affirmations and then ask good questions about what they mean by what they're saying and how do they come to those conclusions and can they help you to see the evidence and help you to understand the basis on which they're making judgments that you you might be able to advance in understanding.

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But I will tell you this that I've become convinced over the last several years that there is no way that you can broker peace with critical theory critical race theory intersectionality and the ideologies that surround around them if you're going to be a faithful Christian.

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And I think it might be helpful for you if you could spend a little time giving a summary definition of all those buzz phrases that you just listed.

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Yeah well critical theory it came out of or at least gained its popular expression in critical legal theory in the last 30 to 40 years or so but it is a way of thinking that really has its roots back in Marxism through the neo -Marxist movement and what commonly came to be called cultural

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Marxism that can be traced back to some of the disciples of Karl Marx with the

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Frankfurt School that moved over to the Columbia Teachers College here in the United States in the 30s

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I think it was or maybe 40s. But those disciples of Karl Marx were all a little bit consternated because Marxism failed.

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Karl Marx saw the world through primarily a materialistic framework and he believed that his was an economic theory so he saw the world in terms of the haves and the have -nots or the bourgeoisie and the proletariats those who controlled the mechanisms of industry and those who did the work of industry and so you have the oppressors at the top the haves and the oppressed at the bottom the have -nots on whose backs the oppressors earn their living and get their way in life and have a pretty easy life at the expense of the hardship of the laborers and so he anticipated that what would happen would we would move toward a utopian way of living when everybody would be the same there would be a revolt of the working class against those who held the powers of industry in their hands and that there would be this equality that would come about in the aftermath well you you saw it tried in in Russia you saw it tried in different other nations around the world and we've seen it in Cuba Venezuela and it has failed miserably and the end of capitalism which the

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Marx and his disciples anticipated didn't happen because in many places in western

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Europe and in England and in the United States what you had was the rise of the middle class and there was this thing called upward mobility where if you started out with deficits you didn't have to stay with them that there were ways that you could overcome and you could access opportunities in a society that operated on a capitalistic type of economy and so that just threw a monkey wrench into Marxist theory and so you got a bunch of disillusioned

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Marxists who look at Russia where it was tried and it was just widespread bloodshed and they saw what happened what happened here and then they concluded that well the basic framework of Marxist thinking was correct but it wasn't primarily certainly not exclusively economic that it applies to every relationship in life not just the haves and have -nots but those who are at the top of society and those who build society to benefit them so you know all the desks are for right -handed students and the cars drive on the right side of the road to benefit those who operate better in that way of viewing the world and the people who then have to suffer because the deck's been stacked against them and this goes across every conceivable identity and relationship so if you're a man the world operates better for you than if you're a woman and if you're white it's better for you than if you're a person of color or you're a black if you're a heterosexual it's better for you than if you're a homosexual or now transgender if you're able -bodied better for you than disabled -bodied and on and on it goes until you have almost a infinite number of possibilities that can be brought together to say well this makes you part of the oppressive class and this makes me part of the dispossessed oppressed class and the so that's that's basically critical theory and it applies to race along racial lines it applies to sexuality along queer theory lines and and sexual identity and transgenderism movements and it again as I said it's moved into able -bodied ways of thinking about people if you're disabled or able -bodied it's moved into religion so that now to be a

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Christian is to be inherently oppressive to be a Muslim is to be inherently oppressed and you're you determine the number of oppressions you have by bringing these into your identity you're saying that these identify you so if you're a black man you're more oppressed than a white man if you're a black woman you're more oppressed than a black man if you're a black lesbian woman then you're more oppressed than a black heterosexual woman if you're a black transgendered lesbian woman and on and on it goes and the number of those identities oppressive identities that intersect in your life the higher that number the greater your oppression there's actually a website you can go and answer questions and it will give you your intersectionality score so you can tell you know where you are on the oppressed oppressive scale well when all of life is viewed in those terms of power dynamics oppressors oppressed then every relationship is fraught with difficulties where you've got someone who's trying to hold you down and someone who's being held down and this intersectionality is a way of looking at the world that views the world that way and once you buy into it well then you cannot any longer hold to what the bible teaches about the oneness of the human race being created in the image of god so we are all image bearers of god and we are united in that identity the oneness of the human race in our rebellion against god so we are all sinners before god and we all share that common sinful identity and then by grace the oneness that we have the redemption in jesus christ so that as christians as paul writes in galatians 3 28 there's neither male nor female there's slave nor free greek uh nor jew we are all one in christ jesus our identity has been forever transformed by the grace of god in the person and work of christ so the gospel is antithetical to this way of viewing the world in this way of operating in the world and those who want to tell us no no we can use critical race theory critical theory intersectionality as helpful analytical tools don't understand what is embedded in those tools what's embedded in them are presuppositions that form a view of the world that is completely contrary to what god's word teaches this world is really about and after we return from our midway break which we are entering into any moment now i'd like you to address my own question uh and it relates to the question of our anonymous listener uh i have had conversations with people that have sided with the woke movement and i have had them define racism uh early on in the conversation because i try to point them to the fact that this movement is really a catalyst for racism it's just got a different target but i'll have you uh we'll have you react to that in a more detailed way when we come back from our midway break and folks this is our uh longer than normal break in the middle of the show because grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they use this time to localize iron trip and zion radio to lake city florida which is a requirement of the fcc to localize their programming geographically to the area where they are where the station is located so please be patient with us as this break is a little longer than the other breaks in the show i also use this time wisely please especially if you're listening on a recording of this program listening to a recording please don't fast forward through the commercials i know that sometimes you may have to do that but don't always do that because i'm hoping that as many of you as possible respond to our advertisers so that they will know that their money is being spent well and that people are being blessed by this program and that people can uh use their services and and practice and uh their products and and so on so this way they'll be more than likely our advertisers will more than likely remain our advertisers which is necessary for us to exist because the majority of our funding to remain on the air comes from our advertisers so please try to respond to them as much as possible even if it just means thanking them for sponsoring this show also send in your questions to dr tom askel on any wide ranging subjects uh regarding doctrine theology and even the institute of public theology that we've announced for the first time publicly today our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com we'll be right back after these messages so don't go away iron sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine christian organizations to remain on the air like the historical bible society the historical bible society maintains a collection of christian books manuscripts and bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years the mission of hbs is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture dissemination of scripture to provide tools equipping believers and christian apologetics with evidence for the bible's reliability and to introduce reformation literature and christian art to a broader audience since 2004 hbs has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast united states reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the bible hbs's founder daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church come journey through their website historical bible society .org

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the collection includes a complete 11th century bible an actual page of the gutenberg bible from 1455 the first book ever printed the geneva bible the 1611 king james bible and much much more visit historicalbiblesociety .org

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today thank you daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of iron sharpens iron radio so hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com

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that's getworldnow .com i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital there's no obligation and no credit card required visit getworldnow .com

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today also check out world news groups podcast the world and everything in it at wng .org

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forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group .org

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forward slash podcast james white of alpha omega ministry is in the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

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that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio here's what gary demar president of american vision had to say about iron sharpens iron recently good to be back chris i always enjoy our time you uh i have to tell you one of the better interviewers out there and i've been doing this for 30 more than 30 years wow that's some compliment how much do i owe you for that you don't have to owe me anything we're in good we're in good shape i'm glad you said it on the air so i don't have to brag about myself tell your friends and loved ones about iron sharpens iron radio airing live monday through friday 4 to 6 p .m

01:00:34

eastern time at iron sharpens iron radio .com this is pastor bill saso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:01:48

that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill saso wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilminton ironworks new hampshire and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rich jensen of hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor sule prince of oakwood wesleyan church in toronto ontario canada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor john samson of king's church in peoria arizona and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck volo of new life community church in kingsville maryland and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve herford of eastport baptist church in jacksonville florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor roy owens jr of the church of friendship in hockley texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

01:03:42

that's nasbible .com to place your order every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

01:04:55

that's liyfc .org you as host of iron sharpens iron radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist church endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com that's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

01:06:20

or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial consultant at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the thriving we know we were made for so much more than ordinary lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family bhanu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead bhanu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is bhanu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not add up in praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you so charles haddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and please never forget folks that solid -ground -books .com

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is also a vital sponsor of this program if they were to discontinue funding our existence we would likely go off the air completely barring a miracle of god so please let them know how much you thank them for supporting this program and help keeping us on the air by purchasing frequently and generously from solid -ground -books .com

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especially with christmas coming up please do a lot of your christmas shopping at solid -ground -books .com

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and not only for your brothers and sisters in christ for whom you are purchasing christmas gifts but even the lost folks in your life they might even especially need good solid biblically based books from solid -ground -books .com

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so that the lord perhaps will use these books to draw them into an eternal relationship with jesus christ and uh please always remember to tell them that you heard about them from chris iron sharpens iron radio .com

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at solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com and you're not only going to be doing them a favor through frequently purchasing books from them and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping our advertiser happy you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you're purchasing books from solid -ground -books .com

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an enormous favor because they publish and carry the very finest in christian literature from the past and the present and many of the books would be in perfect harmony with our guest today dr tom haskell of founders ministries so please write down that website tack it to your refrigerator put it on a post -it note on your laptop screen or your computer screen or wherever you frequently look so you'll never forget solid -ground -books .com

01:13:17

always tell them that you heard about them chris arenson at iron sharpens iron radio before we return to dr tom haskell we just have some important announcements to make uh tomorrow wednesday the 16th of december we have as our guest for the very first time dr philip kaiser who is a board member at the pickering foundation of biblical preservation and also professor of ethics at whitfield theological seminary he's going to be discussing his book december 25th jewish style just in time for the christmas season so we hope that you tune in for that on thursday the 17th of december we have returning to the program uh ryan denton and ryan is going to be discussing his book even if none reclaiming biblical evangelism so we hope that you tune in for that as well on friday the 18th we have returning to the program someone whom i have always loved to interview one of my favorite guests is dr michael a g haken and he is going to be discussing a book that he edited and contributed to strangers and pilgrims on the earth remembering the mayflower pilgrims from 1620 to 2020 and that's friday the 18th of december on monday we have something happening that has only happened once before in the history of iron trip and zion radio and that is i have guest hosts filling in for me in my absence and that's only happened once before and this monday we have dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries and pastor bill shishko a very world -renowned name in reform circles especially in the orthodox presbyterian denomination they were actually debate opponents years ago in a debate that i actually orchestrated and emceed on infant baptism dr white being a reform baptist and pastor bill shishko being a baptist and it was a very memorable event that you could still see on youtube well they are going to be co -hosting monday's show and i hope that you tune in for that as well also folks if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves please i urge you to go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:15:40

click support then click click to donate now you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion and if you prefer snail mail an address a physical address will also appear on the screen where you can send your checks made payable to iron sharpens iron radio when you click support at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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and put advertising in the subject line we are in real urgent need of your financial help folks please help us remain on the air we have been hit very hard financially because of the hysteria associated with the coronavirus pandemic many people in our audience have been hurt seriously financially so therefore they are donating less frequently or less amounts not all but many are and even some of our advertisers had to postpone advertising with us so please help us at this very important time go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:16:53

click support then click click to donate now also folks if you are not a member of a local bible believing church i have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth and i may be able to help you find a church sometimes even right around the corner from where you live no matter where on the planet you live i have helped already people in all parts of the globe in our audience find churches that they didn't even know existed that are biblically sound sometimes within just a few minutes of their own home so send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:17:24

and put i need a church in the subject line if you are in that category or if you need to help a loved one find a church or if you're just going on vacation somewhere and want a biblically sound church that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:17:37

and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address to send in questions for dr tom askel and any question regarding theology doctrine church history or their new institute of public theology at chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:17:54

and dr askel before we went to the midway break i was saying that i have during conversations that have come up on the woke movement when i have been having these conversations with those that may claim sometimes in ignorance to adhere to this movement to support it i've had them define what they think racism is and very often you'll get an actually an accurate definition you know you will have people perhaps even quoting dr martin luther king jr by saying well that would be like uh judging people not according to the the content of their character but on the color of their skin you're prejudging what what people are as far as who they are and their character just because of the lightness or darkness of their skin and that of course would be racism well then i would say to them oh don't you know that that is exactly what's happening with the woke movement it's just the target is different and if you could pick up from there if you think that that is a appropriate methodology yeah well that's exactly right and what's happening today it's a moving target quite honestly to get a definition but one of the more prominent definitions of recent years is that racism is prejudice plus power and so if you're not in one of those uh oppressive privileged categories in the power dynamic relationships then it's impossible for you to be a racist because even if you are hostile toward someone of a race different from yours if you are being oppressed if you are underprivileged you don't have the power to carry out your hatred or your animosity well of course the bible doesn't allow for that you know the bible doesn't give special laws for those who are poor versus those who are rich it doesn't have a different standard for one ethnicity or another ethnicity but rather god who himself is righteous and has defined righteousness for us has revealed to us in his commandments what is right what is wrong what is good what is bad and that is universally true for all people who are made in his image so the idea that james teaches us about sinful partiality where you show preferential treatment to people for reasons that are not legitimate that has been historically what we've understood when we've applied it to race relationships if you look down on another person if you show sinful partiality toward another person on the basis of ethnicity or skin color then you're guilty of the very sinful partiality that the bible forbids now i need to be quick to say that there is a right kind of partiality not all partiality is sinful i love all women in our church but i love one woman above all the rest of them and that's my wife and i'm partial to her and the relationship that we bear justifies that kind of partiality but if i were to say well you know i love all the people in my church but i love the people whose skin pigmentation is this shade versus those who have a pigmentation of a different shade i would be guilty of sinful partiality because i would be allowing my partiality to be ruled by something that is illegitimate in god's eyes so man when you talk about racism today you have to ask the question that you've asked people what do you mean by that there's a very popular book now by abraham kindy called how to be an anti -racist in which he says there's no such thing as being not a racist so if you say well i'm not a racist you automatically have identified yourself as a racist if you're buying into the critical race theory way of thinking that kindy advocates now does kindy include black hispanics native americans and asians and that well yeah it's people of color but it's primarily people of color like him and and he says you got two options you can be an anti -racist and i'll tell you how to do that this is what you must do or if you won't do that you're a racist well let me have you repeat that though is he admitting that there are racists in fact that every black person is a racist is he is he saying no no no no okay that's my point no no no can't be no it's uh you know give that it's prejudice plus power so you're either anti -racist or you're a racist there's no you can't just say well i'm not a racist if you say that you've identified yourself as a racist well if you let me if you let me mark out and define what a hundred yards is chris i can break the world record in a hundred yard dash i can run it in six seconds if you let me mark the field and say that a hundred yards is only 50 yards or just seven feet or so closer to 10 feet or 70 for me but but nevertheless if you if you change the rules of definition well then of course you can make everybody be a racist or come over and comply to your new set of demands as to what constitutes anti -racism okay well that's uh oh the other thing that i very often have said in fact i've said it on this program is that this whole idea that people of darker skin colors and certain ethnicities are exempt from being identified as racist because they have been a persecuted minority and therefore they legitimately can hold certain views of suspicion and animosity towards caucasians well i have pointed to the fact that the jews going all the back all the way back to the beginning of their existence as children of abraham have been a persecuted people that the the gentiles have persecuted enslaved them have annihilated them and we could go on and on and on with how the the gentiles have treated the jews horrifically throughout history and yet even though they were in that category of being an oppressed people the apostle paul adamantly opposed the jewish christians treating the gentile christians in a different light and if anybody could legitimately claim that they had certain rights to have racist ideas being a persecuted people it would have been the first century jews and yet this was a really serious heretical idea that was so heretical that paul rebuked peter publicly over at least temporarily buying into this idea of basically the judyizers right right yeah you're exactly right chris this this is not something that um affects only one class of humanity or one uh one group of the human race this is something that is endemic to every sinful heart that must be overcome must be atoned for by the blood of jesus and it must be put to death by those of us who are following after jesus and it does not matter your ethnicity or your uh your skin tone it those things are indifferent when it comes to relating to god on the basis of the gospel of jesus christ and if we get that right these other things yeah we're still going to have issues because we're sinful people living in a sinful world but we will have everything necessary to work that work out our differences to overcome our broken relationships to deal with the sin that exists and to continue to follow after christ who has redeemed us from that sin okay we have joseph in south central pennsylvania who said you were saying earlier that you maintain good friendships with people that support the woke movement i was wondering how we can continue in a brother -to -brother relationship with folks who support this movement when it is a it is an offense to the gospel itself i can understand maintaining friendships but can we continue to call these men and women our brothers and sisters if they support this movement since it seems to be a very violation of the most crucial aspect of our faith that is the gospel yeah well and there are different degrees of that so i'm glad for the question because it needs to be underscored that anybody who buys into and advocates critical race theory intersectionality critical theory as i have just identified them earlier they are operating on a different foundation than what the bible reveals is true and those who make the kind of demands that are being made and make the kind of judgments like ibram kendi in his anti -racism how to be an anti -racist book or robin d 'angelo and white fragility those who advocate that yes that they are teaching a different gospel and it's tragic it's tragic i think there are some who have simply been taken captive by this they are not fully aware of what they are beginning to advocate and what has taken them captive but then there are others who haven't been ensnared they are the ensnarers they know full well what they're doing what they're advocating and yes those are definitely false brothers i want to be as patient as i can be with men and women who name the name of christ who don't see these things the same way that i do we can have good conversations as long as we keep our bibles open but once they begin to say no this is what you must be this is what you must do this is how you must speak how you must not speak in ways that are contrary to the word then we've parted uh company we're no longer operating on the same foundation and uh yeah i've said multiple times publicly that what we're facing in america today is a new religion and critical race theory intersectionality is a part of it it's not the only thing that is a part of it but yeah these new ways of thinking that are basically secularism hardened secularism a godlessness that thinks it can define what is right and good and true and false what is bad what is what ought to be done what ought not to be done on terms other than what god himself has said and it's as if god doesn't exist it's as if the bible isn't authoritative and isn't sufficient and once you leave those parameters of the god who is who has spoken and whose word is indeed authoritative for us once you leave that and whatever you call yourself you're you're not operating on the basis of christianity i think we're very much in the same situation that jay grisham machen found himself in the early 20th century with the modernist movement and the social gospel movement of his day and we we need to learn from those men who fought those battles machen said you know liberalism is not another kind of christianity it is another religion altogether and i believe that's very true my good friend tom nettles describes this new movement the social justice movement as the social gospel without the liberalism because the many of the folks that are advocating this today they sign our confessions of faith and they say oh yeah we're inerrantists and oh yeah we believe the gospel but it is the same social gospel while maintaining the the commitments at least verbally to the authority of scripture now i'm assuming those that are not liberal that you're referring to they must then reject the affirmation of homosexuality uh that is being strongly promoted by the more secular versions of this yeah well again it's a gradation you know you have a continuum and so yes that has been the case for many but you're we're beginning to see even that crumble because you know you you heard that uh prominent baptist leaders said you know god only whispers about sexual sin downplaying the seriousness of homosexuality in the very point in which he was making so yeah the question is how long can you maintain an opposition to homosexuality calling it sin while still trying to appease the uh the folks that are demanding that you see the world from this critical theory point of view and that's what i said earlier there is no brokering of peace with this worldview we did we need to face it for what it is it's a different religion and we must stand against it for the cause of christ but recognizing that some of our brothers and sisters are being led astray by this different religion they haven't fully bought in yet they've just been taken captive by the devil to do his will and as second timothy 2 tells us we should gently and determinedly seek to restore them in the hopes that perchance god might grant them repentance we have a listener rj in white plains new york who says i hope i don't make you too uncomfortable asking a controversial question but since you are a southern baptist i was wondering if you think that the southern baptist theological seminary will overcome this huge hurdle in that many seem to support this woke movement on their faculty well yeah that is a controversial question it's a good question and you know i'm not afraid of any of them i i think you know that's a question more fitting to the administration of that seminary the seminary has certainly had some challenges and uh...

01:32:51

some of their own have been outspoken about uh... ideas on critical race theory one of the professors who's no longer with them has clearly stated that he believes critical race theory ought to be used as an analytical tool he was the chairman of the committee on uh...

01:33:07

resolutions in two thousand nineteen for the southern as convention that brought out and then advocated for an uh...

01:33:14

resolution on critical race theory and intersectionality curtis woods is his name i count curtis is a a man that it's not a close friend but i've known him and talk to him but he believes that c r t can and should be used as an analytical tool he's been unashamed to say that well he was on the faculty of southern when that resolution came out and he's no longer on the faculty um there are others there that have made statements like white men who's a provost of the seminary i am a racist and i struggle with white supremacy i will be a racist to the day i die well i mean that's a problem to think that you have a theological seminary evangelical theological seminary that has as its chief academic officer a self -professed racist what does he mean by that well he doesn't mean chris what you and i met earlier we were trying to define racism or sinful partiality according to the bible he he means something different than that and you know when you ask him exactly what he means i've gotten different answers to that question but from him and others who are close to him but it's still a problem he's if he's not buying into crt he's using the very language and definitions of crt or at least so it seems to me so i don't know i don't know what's going to happen to any institution where this has been allowed to spring up uh you know hopefully i i hope and pray that every church every institution every gospel enterprise where this has reared its head will be able to refute it to weed it out and to stand firm on the authority and sufficiency of god's word that's certainly what we ought to pray for and we ought to try to encourage for all of these types of institutions and churches now do you are you aware of anybody that has a strong voice in opposition to these movements we've been speaking of critically that is a part of the administration or faculty at the southern baptist theological seminary well um let me just say i know that there are those in seminaries not just that one but other seminaries who are strongly opposed and you know who've tried to address some of these things and who have been outspoken about it and i'm grateful for that and encourage them to continue to do that but i'm not intimately involved in any of that seminary's administration or others that i've referred to you know they they all have their boards of trustees they they do have accountability structures i've been approached by some in those accountability structures who i do know are strongly opposed and are concerned that these things not take root in those institutions and i hope and pray for their success in their efforts now don't you think a lot of this as far as uh good men uh who when i say good men i'm speaking of those that are theologically and doctrinally sound who are biblical inerratists and even theologically reformed uh when they have a soft view of this where they're not adamantly affirming it but they're not in any way criticizing or condemning it well you think a lot of this is sadly an example of fearing men rather than god they're so terrified of being labeled as racist that they just go along with the program even if they have a a gut instinct that is informed by the scriptures and the holy spirit that this is just wrong yeah well chris that certainly happens and i i'm i have talked to people of whom that is true you know across the board in different places different spheres of life and the bottom line is at any time you can never fear god and people at the same time you're either going to fear god or you'll be afraid of people and what we desperately need is a return of the fear of god in fact uh if you don't mind let me just tell you about a book that my associate and i have written jared longshore called strong and courageous following jesus amid the rise of america's new religion uh it will it's due out at the end of this year you can order it right now pre -order from founders ministries at founders .org

01:37:32

but we wrote this book precisely for the purpose that what you just articulated that was what was motivated us to finally say we need to get this book written we need to get it out because god's people need help to understand what's going on in the new religion and then to find reason and hope and strength in the scripture through the power of the spirit to stand against what's going on to learn to fear god so we have a whole section in the book on remembering what it means to fear god because if you don't fear god then you will fear creatures you will fear people but if you fear god rightly you won't fear the face of any man and that's what we need to pray that god will give us and help us to to maintain throughout all of our engagements all of our life.

01:38:22

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania who asks have you heard about your fellow southern baptist

01:38:29

Rick Warren having an upcoming event exclusively for black people the only non -blacks invited are the spouses of black people that may not be black yeah somebody texted that to me this morning so that's that's the first and that's all that i know of it but you know it just reminds me i mean i'm thinking isn't that what the civil rights movement fought against i mean we are we going to have blacks only water fountains and white water i mean this is ridiculous i don't know any more detail than just what you've read because that's what was sent to me but i'll tell you any christian church any christian entity that says we're going to have a blacks only or a whites only and we're going to exclude everybody else there's something very seriously questionable about that you know i mean can we have a meeting for uh single moms only or for abused people only but you know people have been abused well yeah there are sensitivities that maybe might uh suggest there's wisdom in that but whenever you start dividing along racial lines along these accidental differences between people then you're rebuilding walls that jesus broke down by his cross according to paul and what he said in ephesians chapter two so i'm greatly concerned about it i need to know more about it but it just concerns me from what i've heard about it by the way folks if you after this program is over if you want to go to the archives of iron chirp and zion radio .com

01:40:05

i had an interview that i really enjoyed with an author named john harris and john is spelled j -o -n he wrote a book called social justice goes to church the new left in modern american evangelicalism and you can hear that if you type in the search engine in the podcast past shows section of iron chirp and zion radio .com

01:40:29

and you type in the search engine john harris and again that's j -o -n harris that interview will come up and i'm looking forward uh i would love to get you and jared on to discuss your book at some point in the near future oh we'd love to do that yeah we hope it's supposed to we're pushing it but we're trying to get it out by the end of the year to at least be out of the first part of next year but it's been a labor of love it's been a real labor and the people who have read the pre -release copies of it uh it had been very encouraging well tom buck a fellow pastor dear friend of mine oh yeah i know tom very well okay thomas said this book was needed yesterday he said it needs to be placed in the hands of every pastor in america and i'm just so grateful for his affirmation of that and he provided good feedback to us as we were writing it so we're looking forward to it we're praying god will use it we think that it is a timely book it's something that is desperately needed right now to what does it mean to follow christ in this day of america's new religion because that's what we're facing it's not it's not just secularism the way we've commonly thought about secularism well they're you know they're not really religious people no this is a hardened secularism that is at its roots at its core religious we are facing a new religion and christians today need to start thinking about this new religion the same way they think about jehovah's witnesses or mormonism or buddhism or islam it is a different religion and you cannot serve christ and broker peace with it you just can't and folks you can also type into the search engine ironradio .com

01:42:08

podcast past shows uh section the the terms woke or social justice and quite a number of interviews will come up actually in fact an interview that i conducted with someone that i was unaware of a few years ago until tom i guess tom askell told me about this brother and highly recommended him daryl bernard harrison he was on the program along with his podcast co -host virgil walker oh yeah and they were talking about this as well they're great in fact one of your earlier questioners i should have remembered to to encourage him to to he asked about how he could talk you know to some of his black friends or relatives that are sensitive on these issues encourage all of them get together and listen to just thinking podcast that daryl and virgil hosts and they've dealt with all of these issues and done a wonderful job in fact founders press is publishing their first book that'll be out early next year it's called just thinking about the state wow it could not be more timely uh it is an excellent book and the manuscript is almost finished just you know maybe like in a day or two we hope to get it completed and it is outstanding we will soon have it available for pre -order uh pre -press release as well at founders .org

01:43:24

but those two brothers are just uh tremendous in their insights on these issues amen well we're going to our final break it's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks uh but i would strongly urge you if you intend to send in a question that you do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:43:43

chris arnzen at gmail .com give us your first name city and state and country of residence we'll be right back with tom askell after these messages was your business shut down during the covid 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878 buttafuco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4878 linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

01:46:53

that's linbrookbaptist .org hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris irons and on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program welcome back this and we have a first -time listener with a question for dr tom askel adam in akron ohio well he's a first -time questioner anyway might be a long -time listener have you heard of carl truman's new book the rise and triumph of the modern self it seems like truman addresses many of the themes that give rise to critical theory and homosexuality such as issues of the psychological the psychologicalizing i don't know if i'm mispronouncing that psychologizing i'm sorry the psychologizing of identity yes i have i've actually talked to carl about the book and i'm about halfway through it and i'm loving it it's brilliant it's probably going to be the best book that i've read this year uh i can probably already go ahead and say that because he gets underneath how we got to where we are and he takes a basic framework he says how how did we get to a place in our society where when a person stands up and says i am a woman trapped in a man's body that folks feel like that's not a strange thing to say and that we ought to show sympathy and love means we don't judge but we affirm and we try to provide a way for that uh man trapped in a woman's body or woman trapped in a man's body to be able to come to experience and express his true or her true self and so he takes that question and he traces it back to what has happened in our society through the rationalist movement and the romantic movement and it's brilliant i'm loving it and uh he's uh he's done a great job of assessing kind of internally what's going on in our culture today and how we got from where we once were to where we now are i don't i don't know that he's going to offer too many real solutions but he's going to help us understand what we're up against so i i can already highly recommend the book but i've not quite finished it well uh if you could let us know what your full mailing address is adam in akron ohio so that we can mail you out a brand new new american standard bible since you are a first -time questioner that will be shipped to you by cvbbs .com

01:56:09

cumberland valley bible book service to ship out all of our winners the free bibles and books and other things that they win when they send in questions for our guests and we always send out a new new american standard bible for first -time questioners so make sure we have your full mailing address in akron ohio we have lou in sharpsburg georgia hello brothers dr askel are there beliefs regarding the first 11 chapters of genesis and eschatology that will be required of any adjunct professor at the institute of public theology in order to teach there yes and no yes on genesis 1 through 11 no on eschatology now obviously there would be some things that would be way out of bounds but we we have the 1689 confession does not draw a hard line on eschatological distinctives and so neither will we uh based upon our confessionalism so no you could be an amill premill uh postmill and happily labor among us it seems that most uh confessional reform baptists uh lean in the amillennial direction but charles adams strongly held to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith from what i understand was historical premill right yeah so is my good friend tom nettles so that's true well uh we are out of time so i want to make sure that we give our listeners your contact information uh first of all uh don't forget about founders ministries where you can also find out more about the institute of public theology that's founders .org

01:57:47

founders .org and also grace baptist church of cape coral florida can be found at true grace of god .org

01:57:58

true grace of god .org do you have any other contact information or websites or anything that you'd like to share yeah thanks so much for that um i always forget to mention this but jared and i do a podcast every week called the sword in the trowel and we've dealt with issues of long gospel we've dealt with issues of the out of the 1689 confession of faith we've dealt with the social justice issues uh repeatedly and a lot of what's gone on this year in the in the as you put it so well some of the uh anarchy that has arisen from the pandemic we've tried to think critically about that and help others to think carefully about what should churches do what should pastors do in light of these new challenges so encourage you to tune in to the sword in the trowel which is available on any platform that handles podcasts praise god well uh i want to thank you so much uh dr askell for being my guest again and i uh will send you a calendar of dates so that you and jared can both join me together to discuss your new book that's coming out in 2021 i would love to have you back on oh that'd be awesome we would love to come on so appreciate your considering that and i'd love to have daryl uh daryl bernard harrison and virgil walker on i was talking to them just before i stepped on with you today and man they're so excited i'm excited with them about their new book that will be out god willing in the beginning of the new year called just thinking about the state you can find it at founders .org