Christmas Theology

This is the dividing line The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white and today is the 23rd of December if you are listening live that is if you're listening to the archive broadcast that may or may not be a

True statement for you I suppose you could listen to this a year from now and it would be true a second time and it'd be true well, basically once every year, but given that it is the 23rd of December it is only a day away from Christmas Eve and then

Christmas itself and I am aware of the fact that there are those who do not believe that Christians should celebrate the

Christmas holiday. I am NOT one of those people. I Believe that it is perfectly proper for us to celebrate

The greatest gift that God has ever given and that is his son given to redeem his people

I think of Matthew 121 and the fact that Jesus is described as His name is described as Indicating to us.

He shall save his people from their sins and that of course is a description of the work that Jesus Christ accomplishes and of course the

Son was given to us and What we're going to do today is we're going to look into the scriptures look at an important section of scripture regarding the incarnation of Jesus Christ and then as Time allows note some very common sadly denials of the reality of the incarnation of Jesus Christ the reality of The Christmas season itself and I think you'll be a little bit surprised at some of the denials that are out there from various religious groups and one especially that's real big on celebrating

Christmas and yet in its theology there is a substantive problem in regards to the incarnation and the meaning of the incarnation and the reality of The incarnation now, what are we talking about when we use the term?

Incarnation. Well, obviously when you think of the word it's itself in Latin.

We're talking there about the taking of flesh obviously the key passage

John 114 the word became flesh and obviously when we're speaking of such a high doctrine as this we are referring to The deity of Christ that the one who took on flesh has eternally been

God that there has never been a time when the Son was not God and of course that means when we talk about the incarnation we're talking about the

Entrance into human flesh of the God man that Jesus Christ was fully

God and that he was fully man This is the doctrine of the incarnation and it really is the basis the only reason for the celebration of Christmas as it is known today and I agree with many who would say that the

Christmas celebration of people in the world is Far short of what should be a

Christmas celebration and in fact within the church itself The celebration is obviously sub biblical

I Believe that obviously we should be focused upon This tremendous truth of the incarnation and yet obviously in many situations

If you were to raise the word incarnation many of those who may very much enjoy celebrating

Christmas would have no idea what you're talking about and of course that Should not be but what we want to do is to insert as much truth as we can into this

Christmas celebration so that when we gather and consider What God has done in Jesus Christ, we will be reminded that even though the world itself

Mocks the belief in the deity of Christ mocks the belief in the virgin birth in The miracles of Christ in the resurrection of Christ and the return of Christ that we as Christians in truly celebrating

Christmas would be doing so in such a way as To remind everyone around us ourselves included

What's the Christmas season really does? represent and so I'd like to focus today on the dividing line on The prophecy of the coming of this

Messiah that is found in the ninth chapter of the book of Isaiah Isaiah chapter 9 contains one of those tremendous messianic prophecies that obviously goes far beyond What's the prophet

Isaiah himself could have possibly understood in? Regards to the revelation that was given to him the word of the

Lord that came to him and I am of course referring to the words of the prophet in Isaiah 9 6 & 7

Which I'll read for you now from the New American Standard Bible for a child will be born to us a son will be given to us and The government will rest on his shoulders and his name will be called wonderful counselor mighty

God eternal father prince of peace There will be no end to the increase of his government or of peace on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and Righteousness from then on and forevermore the zeal of the

Lord of hosts will accomplish this Now this passage written seven centuries before the

Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ before the incarnation Demonstrates to us the

Divine Character of prophetic scripture sadly in our day today,

I have to report to you that in a large portion of What is called

Christian scholarship? there is no longer any idea any acceptance of a truly supernatural divine

Element to Old Testament prophecy You may ask well, why is that?

Why? Why how could it possibly be that? There anyone could study the

Old Testament and and not be amazed at something like Isaiah 9 6 well a number of reasons generally the reason that I would have to give for the majority of Places of higher learning is the rejection of the idea

That the Old Testament is a consistent whole that it is a revelation from God Instead most places today embrace the idea that the

Old Testament is in point of fact a compilation of man's writings that is internally self contradictory that while it may contain the ruminations of men the thinking of men

Regarding the Interaction of God maybe

The attributes of God or something like that it does not actually embody a Revelation that comes from God.

And yes, this sadly is even in certainly the quote -unquote mainline denominations the mainline seminaries and even in conservative seminaries you will have an acceptance of very various theories regarding The subject of the

Old Testament that in essence relegate it to the same class is pretty much all all ancient texts of various and sundry religious peoples and So it is not seen as as the unique Word of God The dating of various books is pushed way way way beyond what would make sense

If Isaiah was who Isaiah claimed to be so on so forth and so the result is that there is sadly an entire generation in fact generations of people coming out of the quote -unquote

Christian seminaries in our land who would look at a passage like this not as a supernatural revelation given by God Seven centuries before the events of that that glorious birth in Bethlehem But instead would see it as a later redaction

That was referring not to the coming Messiah and that in reality only later

Generations in fact later Christian generations would take these words and say ah

I see in these words Something that I can apply to Jesus and is it any wonder then that as a result

We do not see the type of preaching on this passage that we used to see in Centuries gone by when it was accepted for what it really is and that is a supernatural prophecy

Think about the words as they are found in Isaiah 9 6

I'd like to especially focus upon the first two phrases or a child will be born to us a

Son will be given to us Now have you thought about that phrase we sing it all the time

And in fact, I would later on like to play a section from some of the most beautiful music ever penned by man the setting to Music of these words by handle of course in the

Messiah But a child will be born to us a son Will be given to us in the original

Hebrew text the word for child is Yellid the very same term that would be the birth of any child and in fact the word born is related to that and That's the very same phrase that you would find that would refer to the normal birth of a child

I Think what we have in that first phrase is the human side

The same thing that is picked up by the Apostle John in John 1 14 when he said the word became flesh

Even in the Greek septuagint Pideon is used and Genao is used and these are terms that again do not direct us to any kind of Understanding other than the fact that the one who is born here is truly a child

Now I admit I have been bothered at times by some of the myths that we have picked up from Various songs that are not exactly theologically correct

For example, we've all heard the song that speaks of the little baby

Jesus No crying he makes Well, I can guarantee you if a child was born to us that child cried

That is natural for a human baby to cry It is important for the newborn child to cry to open up the lungs and to begin the respiratory process and So there is nothing in Scripture that tells us that the baby that was born to us wasn't really a baby

It was just God masquerading as a human. No, there's nothing in Scripture that would even begin to suggest

Such a concept to us The child was born He didn't just appear in a manger he wasn't beamed out of Mary's womb by some miraculous force a

Child was born. There was a birth that took place There were birth pains

Involved with the delivery of this child Just like every other child has entered into this world

Now why is that important well some of the greatest heresies in The history of the church have been focused upon the denial the humanity of Christ.

I realized in our day and age That we are primarily focused upon defending the deity of Christ because there are so many that deny the deity of Christ But that was not the primary concern in the early church

The primary concern the early church were those that denied the humanity of Christ they were all too ready to accept a

Divine individual who may be like the the Greek gods Entered into our world and performed miracles or things like that, but that was not the

Christian message the Christian message was of the God man and You cannot deny either one of those two terms and still have biblical truth

Jesus Christ is the God man a child was born and Yet he was born to us

You see Christ came to bring redemption The cross

Was not some afterthought There was a beautiful song

I saw a song at a church that we went to many years ago in the Christmas musical it was called the shadow of the cross and What we did in preparing for the song is one of the lights.

It was a very large church one of the lights we put a lens on it and a red covering and a cutout so that there was a cradle on In the front of church and this light would project the shadow of a cross across the stable and across the manger where the

Christ child was laid and The idea that was communicated there, I think is found here in the original text of Isaiah chapter 9

Because it says a child we born to us Us Sometimes we go shooting past that particular phrase but it's there both in the

Greek and in the Hebrew a Child we born to us who is us well, some would say well, it could only be the people of Israel and Yet we know that this child who was born in Bethlehem All through his ministry spoke of the gospel going out yes to the people of Israel, but as in the gospel of John he spoke of other sheep that he had and When he ascended into heaven, he commanded his disciples to go into all the world

And we know that as we mentioned before Matthew 121 The angel said his name shall be called

Jesus for he shall save his people from Their sins and so a child will be born to us for us and It was the man

Jesus Christ Who died upon the cross? It was his flesh that feel felt the the nails

God man that never changed We don't believe as some of those early heretics in the church

Did that when Christ was nailed the cross the quote -unquote God word side of him in some sense was?

Disassociated from the one suffering on the cross. That certainly would not be a biblical belief at all

But he was truly a man He truly hungered. He truly experienced thirst

He truly experienced exhaustion physical weariness and Why is that so vital?

Because without that there is no redemption Without that there is no salvation

Without that there is no atonement He was made like us so that he might suffer and he might bear in his body the penalty of the sins that was due to his people and So the first thing to remember is that that child

Who was born was a child was truly born and he entered into this world for a purpose and that purpose was the redemption of his own people

I hope as you consider as You consider

The Christmas season as it is upon us that in all the busyness In all the rush

You will think about what it means That Christ was truly man that it was a historical fact that he entered into human flesh into our world but then look at that next phrase a son

Will be given to us a Son will be given to us

Do you see the difference between the two phrases a son will be given

Nathan is the Hebrew term Didamy the

Greek term used in the Septuagint a son Will be given to us same phrase to us

They're obviously meant to be parallel passages This is an example of what we have in Hebrew of Hebrew parallelism.

And so surely the son of the second phrase is the child of the first and Yes, the being born is the parallel to being given

But Hebrew parallelism does not necessarily mean That everything in the second phrase is meant to be taken as a simple

Restatement of the first a Son will be given to us

It is not I believe a Mere coincidence that the

New Testament speaks of the father's giving of the son and I think we do see here and Yes, I Accept the fact that we're dealing here with Looking at this passage with New Testament eyes with biblical eyes with Christian eyes

Seeing Isaiah 9 6 as part of the totality of Scripture But I do not think that we are doing anything wrong to the passage to look at this and go a

Son will be given to us Compliments the first phrase but here we have the divine person the son himself though I don't believe the

Old Testament gives us specific terms of father son and spirit as we have in the incarnation

But since it is talking about the incarnation here This son who is given to us is the son who is given by the father who else can give a son but a father and here there is a giving and in the background of that giving there has to be a giver and Does that not cause us to think of John chapter 3?

For God so loved the world that he did what? That he gave He gave his unique what?

Son, I think that we are on solid ground to see what is being said here and in point of fact when we look at the

Greek of John 3 16 and we look at the Greek Septuagint of Isaiah 9 6

We see that the same verb is used Forgiving not in the same form because the time frames are different, but it's the same word and We find that of course it is the same word for son and so I think that there is a parallel between these two and that we see in Isaiah 9 6 in a revelation given by prophecy seven centuries before the incarnation an

Indication that we can see and I think it's fair for us to see in the light of The New Testament Revelation the humanity of the one who is to be born as well as this indication of the deity the divinity of the one who is given again to us

To us now, there's no question That Isaiah chapter 9 does present to us

The deity of Christ you can see that as we look farther in the verse he is called the mighty

God the El Gabor in The Hebrew language a term that is used of eyes of of Yahweh himself and Isaiah 10 21

So we're not being unfair with the passage to recognize that it plums the very depths of the incarnation itself seven centuries before the events it's describing and now if you are like me and You have

Heard the thinking of the world You may like me struggle just a little bit to really grasp hold of What it means to believe that this prophecy?

Existed for seven centuries that this truth was revealed by God seven centuries before the events and that there was a revelation of the very nature of the

Incarnation itself right there in the scriptures And why do I say if you're like me you struggle with it because we live in a naturalistic society

We live in a society that in essence tries to form our thinking

Into such a way as So that we struggle mightily with the miraculous

We struggle mightily with recognizing the supernatural It's all around us and We have to in essence work at having a mindset that properly

Understands what the scriptures are saying to us and we have to resist the temptation

To rip from the text these truths and its supernatural nature just so that it fits more easily with the way we have been taught to think in our culture today

Isaiah 9 6 goes on to say the government will rest upon the shoulders of This one who is born and given

That is he is going to be a king He is going to have Authority what kind of authority well authority in all realms spiritual and in the physical and of course the

Lord Jesus had to struggle in teaching his disciples that the Reign of Christ over the world that is visible is

One that comes after His work as the suffering Messiah But the government will rest and his name will be called and remember of course a name in Hebrew Says much more about the person remember

Jacob was the Supplanter Edom had red hair. I mean these they used names to actually describe something about the character of The individual and so his name will be called wonderful counselor mighty

God eternal father prince of peace Now, what are those phrases mean?

Well, some believe that Wonderful and counselor. I guess that means we're going to be taking a break now.

I Didn't know that but we're gonna be taking a break. We have one phone caller online and we'll be right back after this

And welcome back to the dividing line My name is James White and I'm the last one to know about when breaks are coming.

So thankfully I can hear the hear the music and Roll with the punches and hopefully remember where in the world

I was when we're talking about Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 the description of Christ as Wonderful counselor the one who is able to give us the wisdom

That he is described as having in the book of Colossians He is called the El Gabor the mighty

God and as I mentioned before that cannot simply be Dismissed it is interesting to note that Jehovah's Witnesses do admit that Isaiah 9 6 is about Christ and that he is called a mighty

God but not the Almighty God, but they neglect to note or most are simply ignorant of the fact that The very same phrase

El Gabor is used in Isaiah 10 21 of Jehovah himself But of course, they would simply say well, okay

Well, he's a mighty God too, but unless Jesus is called Almighty God then he's I guess a secondary

God or something like that, but we do clearly have here an indication of the deity of Christ and then the phrase that causes a lot of people a lot of Confusion is the phrase eternal father because they assume that you have

Trinitarian names in the Old Testament That you have here the the phrase Father and that this then confuses

Christ with the father even though it was said above a son will be given to us But I think the easiest way to understand what is being said here is that He is the father in the same way that the

Old Testament describes that use of the word father and That is it's in regards to the one who creates when the term father is used of Jehovah it is normally in regards to the context of God as Creator and so the

Hebrew phrase aviad that is used there It's actually just one word actually

Translated as eternal father would refer to the fact that Christ is eternal and he is the one from whom all things came

Just as the father is the source So in this way the son is described as the one who has eternally existed

And is the one through whom all things were made? I think this is a parallel to Colossians chapter 1 verses 15 and following and then he is described as the prince of peace the prince of peace

The one who brings peace the one who can command peace and I think that we cannot help but recognize

Romans 5 1 the Jesus Christ is described there as the one through whom and Only through whom we have peace with God.

He is the prince of peace these are obviously very high titles and To understand them does require an understanding of what

Christ has done It does require a New Testament a pair of New Testament eyes

I guess you might say to fill out what these phrases mean, but that is the nature of prophecy itself and So they are important words.

They are their words that Certainly communicate much to us.

Well, we're going to take some Take some phone calls We're gonna start with if we can with Johnny on line one

Johnny you there I certainly cancer I Can't hear you

Okay. Well Hello, I'm not sure why you can't hear me. I can't hear you

All righty, well why don't we put Johnny back on hold until we can figure out how to get me together with Johnny and We we've managed to work it out last week so I know there's a way to do it.

How about How about trying Dave maybe maybe Dave can hear me

Dave, can you hear me I can hear you just fine Alrighty well, we'll try to adjust things

Oh I'll tell you today is a rough day. I We're having problems all around today for some strange reason but We sort of thought

Saturdays would be a little bit easier because we wouldn't be having network congestion But so you can't hear me at all

Dave. I can hear you now can hear me now. Okay good. Alrighty Well, we'll we'll work on getting

Johnny back on here in a second, too. So what can I help you with Dave? Well Well, we've been talking about the incarnation and we've been talking about Isaiah 9 6 and it's testimony to the

To the incarnation of Christ and the fact that I think we do have the the dual nature of Christ Bound in those first phrases that a child we born to us.

The Sun will be given to us So along those lines, what's what's your question?

Well, go ahead with whatever you had it doesn't have to be necessarily right on the the exact same topic, it's okay

Well, basically we were just attaching this to the the celebration of Christmas the fact that that's really what we are celebrating that's very few people who actually celebrate the

Christmas holiday Actually in point of fact understand what it is that Christians really believe took place in the incarnation of Christ, they don't know what incarnation means they they don't know who

Christ was and so in essence, I think Celebration should be based upon truth.

And so Christmas celebration should be focused upon understanding who

Christ truly was Would you agree with that? And I imagine back there though, you're having a bit of a white

Christmas perhaps No, thank you you could walk outside right well, in fact, my air conditioner is cycling behind me keeping the office

Somewhere around 76 degrees right now. So oh I do have one one comment to make since you brought up the topic of Chris.

I remember I think it was last week sometime There was a certain person in the chat room who was saying that Celebrating Christmas was bad and it was pagan and it's full of idolatry and we shouldn't

We shouldn't celebrate Christmas Christmas trees or idols and things like that And I was just trying to try to reason with him and I just couldn't get through to him for some reason

I guess there's just some misconception about whether or not Christians should celebrate

Christmas or not I think I think it's perfectly acceptable to do so only we have to be careful

How we celebrate it and what our mindset with this holiday is well

There's no question about that. And and in fact just a few years ago I remember receiving an article from someone regarding how

Christians shouldn't do this and the alleged pagan origins and all the rest of stuff and I feel

Obviously if a person is convinced in their own mind that they cannot

Celebrate the birth of Christ because they are convinced that it is in point of fact offering

Worship to a false god or something like that, then they should not celebrate it.

The problem is That's in essence. I've rarely encountered anyone who

Gave me the freedom to believe what I believe and to worship as I would worship on this subject generally people who adopt that position become somewhat a

Evangelist and in essence try to say that the Celebration of Christmas is wrong for everyone.

I think if a person was involved in in pagan idolatrous worship then certainly that would probably cause them a problem in Engaging in anything that would remind them of that and so if they had had a

Idolatrous celebration on December 25th, I can understand why they wouldn't want to have a Christmas celebration after becoming

Christian, but I don't know what I've ever met who opposed the Christmas holiday was in that particular that particular role in that particular place and sadly

I've encountered many for whom it becomes in essence a Well, I'm a more spiritual person than you are because I don't do this type of thing

And it is hard to get through those folks. It is very difficult All righty. All righty.

Okay. Thanks for calling Dave Bye. Bye Eight six six five five zero three nine fifteen is the number that Johnny has called and I'm really gonna

Hope that we can get Johnny on the air this time. Johnny. Can you hear me? I can barely hear you barely hear me

Well, that's better than not hear me at all My question it's a pleasure to talk to you again.

Hi My question is about I was listening on the Walter Martin website on their listening library

I don't know if you've ever been there. I'm aware of it. I've not been able to be there. No, okay Well in their listening library right now, they have a show.

It was called the Long John Neville show where Walter Martin made appearances on there and But one of the things that that was brought up is something that I had never heard before That in the ancient in antiquity before the time of Jesus Christ that there was rabbinic scholars

Whom had interpreted verses Such as Isaiah 7 Isaiah 9

Isaiah 53 To be Messianic prophecies. I had never heard this before.

The reason why I'm asking is because Sometime back memory not sometime back maybe about five years ago now

I spoke to a rabbi because I was curious as to how a Jew from the

From the context or the background a Jew has and how they're not they don't believe in Jesus the

Messiah When they look at Isaiah 53 or Isaiah 9 or Isaiah 7, right?

What is their? Interpretation and he said that well, you know, Isaiah 53 doesn't have anything to do with Jesus because it's speaking in the past tense

But is this or I mean, where is dr Martin getting his material on on saying that the ancient

Jews prior to Jesus did interpreted these verses didn't interpret these verses as being

Messianic I Don't know where he's if are you saying that Walter Martin was saying that the

Jews did not interpret these verses as Messianic. Is that what Walter Martin was saying? No, he was saying that they did prior

Okay. Okay. Well That's because you had a lot I don't know what his source would be but you had many competing streams of Belief and of interpretation of Scripture in Judaism And they still do of course exactly and so as a result you had those who saw the

Messiah as solely a Military conqueror they saw him solely as a one who had established the

Davidic Kingdom and you can see that influence upon the Apostles in the Gospels because they're looking for a

Messiah who in essence will deliver them from the dominion of Rome and established the

Jewish Nation as the supreme nation in in all the world But then you did have the more shall we say?

Spiritual interpretations and though that spectrum continued out into all sorts of speculative writings during the intertestamental period

So my assumption would be that Walter Martin was referring to some sort of intertestamental writing that would that could be interpreted as Certain rabbis and he said that there were certain rabbis rabbinic did interpreted those verses

To be referring to the Messiah. Okay. Well, I'm not sure what rabbis he'd be referring to Yeah, and it's really hard to comment without knowing what his sources were but there

I do not know the rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 9 6 in the intertestamental period

That might be an interesting study to engage in but it's not something that I'm I'm aware of and if he didn't give any sources

It's really difficult to track those things down I'm not very well learned in Judaism.

So I just have to ask you that you're the scholar How do the Jews look at verses like Isaiah 7?

Well realize today there is a There is today a viewpoint of post

Christianity a very strong anti Christian reaction

Amongst Jewish interpretations so that within a couple of centuries you have established within Jewish writings a very strong Reaction against Christianity and therefore all the passages that were used on the subject of Christ by the

New Testament writers were given non -christian interpretations by the by Judaism following the time of Christ and so you can go down to your local

Jewish bookstore and Pick up books. I have one in my

Library entitled I'll let's see. I'll take God you take Jesus or something along those lines.

They're actually anti Christian apologetics works designed to be given to Jewish young people who would be encountering say

Jews for Jesus or Campus crusade on a university campus or whatever and in general

Those will utilize pretty much the same interpretations that Isaiah 53 is talking primarily about Isaiah or talking about the people of the context very clearly but they'll make those types of assertions when they look at Isaiah 7 and Isaiah 9 they try to historicize them

And of course Isaiah 7 does have the historical situation in mind in in in the fulfillment there an immediate fulfillment than a later fulfillment and so they'll point those immediate fulfillments and deny the possibility even though their own

System recognizes that this is a possibility that prophecy can have a near fulfillment and then a greater fulfillment

They their whole concept of Messiah is wrapped up in that and so there's it's very

Inconsistent. I did in fact moderate a debate between dr.

Michael Brown and a rabbi Shochet back in 1995 at Arizona State University, and it was truly fascinating to Observe the rabbis

Anti -christian rhetoric, which really I I remember writing in my in my notes during his presentation

I said the Pharisees are alive and well nothing had changed. I mean it was it was It was just like what was recorded in the

New Testament. This is truly incredible. It's fascinating I'm not sure if I have any at all to be honest

Okay, because I am curious one of the yeah, I asked him about several verses. I didn't call the debate him

I just called on the phone to ask him what his particular interpretation of Isaiah 53 looking back on it

He never gave it to me. He just told me that it didn't refer to Jesus But I also brought up a

Daniel chapter 9 what he pointed out Was that he took a higher critical view of this verse that that it's written in the second century

BC And I have heard that I can't verify this. I asked Hank on the Bible Answer Man.

He didn't know for sure that many Protestant scholars like William Lane Craig Believe that a

Daniel chapter. I'm sorry the book of Daniel was written in the second century that's not actually in historical book, but more of a of a play or a story of Good faith, and I'm trying to find out exactly how it fits in here.

Well, unfortunately that viewpoint is very prevalent I've said many times that conservatives gave the

Old Testament up to the liberals a couple generations ago and that you can hardly get any

Decent material on the Old Testament outside of just a few Individuals Who are still writing but sadly the vast majority of stuff that we get in Christian bookstores is

Embraces certain anti -supernaturalistic presuppositions that do view the

Old Testament as a mishmash of Redacted Sources that really have no particular

Connection with one another and certainly are not Inspired in the sense of being historically accurate or anything else

No, that's that's a new thing that the whole

Modernistic idea of viewing the scriptures the way they're viewed both in Much of Judaism today as well as in liberal

Christian thought is was pretty much unknown prior to say the 17th century and The idea that so well, you know, these really aren't the words of Daniel they didn't really exist

That's that's that type of redaction criticism Is is not something that was a part of the ancient faith of the

Jews at all now, of course you have to differentiate between the faith of the Jewish people prior to Christ than after Christ because anything after Christ is deeply influenced by the reaction against Christianity Well when you say

Jews remember did you you would have super conservative Pietistic Jews who would not but The vast majority of Jews wouldn't even really know about it and the lessons are not really practicing

But those who like the rabbi the vast majority of Rabbis would have been trained in their quote -unquote seminary training

In the same way that you have in the majority of quote -unquote Christian seminaries in the higher critical viewpoint

That would view the old so yes Sadly, and this I think says a lot most

Old Testament scholars and Jewish scholars would see the Old Testament the same way But so you would say that there are some

Jews that actually do believe in the book of Daniel as being written Oh, so certainly, you know, certainly there are I mean,

I can't give you a specific name But a they the the Jews who truly believe that Torah is given by God And that it is a divine revelation you have super conservative

Jews Just as you have still have super conservative Christians who who? Have not yourself in that category, of course

Okay, that makes a lot of sense What about the other thing is I got this little pamphlet by John Weldon and John Ankerberg uh -huh, he says these are the the truth about such -and -such and He was talking about the the

Bible and the truth about it And he brought up one of the the sections in there was about the book of Daniel And he said that the book of Daniel Contains lots of evidence that you that it was actually written in the 6th century he brought up the that it was in the

Septuagint and that also that Josephus had mentioned that there was a an emperor or a king that had been given a copy of the book of Daniel to read prior to the 2nd century

Well, I think there's plenty of evidence that the book of Daniel is

What it claims to be the if you really start digging into why people?

relegated to a later period Fundamentally all the objections are based upon the assertion that you cannot have predictive prophecy predictive prophecy involves a direct supernatural intervention on the part of God in imparting knowledge to someone about future events and a naturalistic materialistic worldview

Place for that and so Fundamentally what gave birth to the quote -unquote higher critical viewpoint was a worldview that is a non -christian worldview and that that is the irony and the sadness of The degradation of Christian education is that the theories that are now so popular

Amongst those who claim to be Christians and who attempt to make out of this

Perspective something meaningful and still hold to conservative doctrinal beliefs in essence are are working with a system that has come to them and Originated from those who were not

Christians and in point of fact had an anti -christian worldview But again in in much of scholarship today to believe that you're you're singing in the wind.

You're out there alone you're considered a narrow -minded fundamentalist who really doesn't have any knowledge of of the the facts you you can't get yourself a teaching position almost anywhere and It's it's a very sad state of affairs and it does end up having direct impact upon the proclamation the faith of the church

Okay. All righty. What did you call their Old Testament scriptures? Anyway, well generally they use the term

Tanakh or simply the scriptures Tanakh comes from TNK with Torah the

Nevi 'im and the Ketuvim The law the prophets and the writings So Tanakh is the term that is used scriptures is used

Just don't do what a friend of mine did in the last semester while I was teaching Hebrew. He went into a

Jewish bookstore and Asked for the Old Testament in Hebrew That's a good way to get yourself booted right out of the

Jewish bookstore and to offend everybody in the process So exactly what I did with the rabbi, but the thing is

I asked him I I mentioned all to see I've always been taught that whenever you refer to the Old Testament the Old Testament I I didn't know

I said Torah or I don't know what they call it. So I just like yeah just you could you could just simply refer to the scriptures or it's sort of like going to Germany and Trying to speak

German, even if you're not very good at if you say something like in the Tanakh Because they'll appreciate the fact that you're at least trying to utilize their

Terminology and communicate with them in a respectful fashion. So so that's what I would suggest Okay, I'll let you go.

Okay. Thanks for calling. All right Eight six six five five zero thirty nine

Excuse me while I take my headphones off and hopefully I still have one good year ear left to utilize.

Oh Eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen

It's a holiday weekend and I do remember a pastor

I once had who believed that microphones and electronic equipment could be demon -possessed and I always chuckled at that.

I'm not chuckling at that today Because I think that we have now empirical evidence of that that particular possibility

Excuse Me we have one other caller online. I have two other topics.

I want to get to and I may not get to both of them In regards to how the incarnation is denied by two religious groups who do celebrate

Christmas and If we'll try to get through our first call Right after the break and then during the last half hour and yes

We're going to press on we are going to persevere. We are Calvinists. We will not be stopped. We are going to press on You know, it's gonna happen there's gonna be a rolling blackouts could just knock the power right out of the office here and that'll be

At the end of that and it'll just put us out of our misery We're gonna press on and hopefully in the next half hour we will have an opportunity to examine the

Mormon denial of the incarnation and Then the

Roman Catholic compromise of the incarnation That should be of some interest to you.

I hope you'll hang on here on the dividing line Well, I'm going to assume that that's jazzy music

Means we're back New music this week. I'm not even sure what in the world I'm doing actually, but hey, it's good to have you back

I hope those of you listening by the archived program Can appreciate our perseverance anyways, that's the way to describe it.

Let's go ahead and and talk with with Mike The line at eight six six five five zero three nine fifteen.

Hello Mike Yes, okay

Your your fascination with with the Pope's yes, okay Well, we do know that Pope Gregory the

Great denied that there was a supreme human ruler in the Catholic Church Is he repudiated the idea when he?

Rebuked at the Bishop of Constantinople for attempting to irrigate himself to a high position But I'm wondering if that's

Gregory the Great also made great advancements within the papacy. How does that work? And well, it's really simply an issue and and I'll handle this fairly quickly his

He is a a Transitionary Pope. I mean certainly he was sort of the last of the primitive

Popes and the first of the great medieval Popes and Pope Gregory Certainly did not have the viewpoint that you would find say in Innocent or someone like that but he did have behind him the rather grandiose claims of Leo for example or others who had greatly advanced the power of the

Roman papacy at that particular point in time and I also would point out that this his

Rule and reign comes after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and that Resulted in a tremendous increase in the temporal power of the papacy as well

So while we see in his denial of that phrase universal bishop the sort of more primitive view we also see some of the hints of what is coming in the future in his

Claims of authority and and in his development of such things as The concept of purgatory as well.

Okay. Well, thank you very much. Okay. Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye now I had mentioned before we took that phone call that Excuse me very much for the throat here.

We were hoping to get rid of this soon That I want to talk about two Compromises of the

The reality of Christmas the reality of the incarnation the first is found in Mormonism and if You are

LDS and you're listening to this and you've persevered to this point. You may be somewhat surprised at What I'm going to say and I'm certainly don't have time to go fully into this

But in Mormonism you will hear people talking about the virgin birth of Christ But I think we need to understand

What's the general authorities of the Mormon Church are actually saying?

When they talk about the virgin birth of Christ because as with so much else in Mormonism The words may sound familiar

They may be spelled the same way But in reality, they mean something completely and totally different now in my book is the

Mormon my brother chapter 12 is entitled a Mormon doctrine or mere speculation and if you go to the

LDS apologists that are out there You will be told that The concept that I'm presenting to you and that is that Mormonism does teach

That God the Father whom they identify as Elohim in a physical body engaged in natural sexual relations with Mary Who is his spirit child in the pre -existence to create the body of Jesus that that teaching is merely a

Speculation on the part of certain 19th century general authorities and is not binding

LDS teaching You'll find that in the words of dr.

Peterson from BYU in The book that he co -wrote with Stephen Ricks offenders for a word you'll find dr.

Robinson in essence pooh -poohing such an idea and Yet in this chapter

I provided page after -page after -page of quotations not only from the 19th century but from the 20th century as well of LDS leaders who very clearly and without any equivocation taught this very doctrine

I Think that most Mormons who are involved in temple work and in the priesthood meetings know that this is in fact what is taught and It is simply embarrassing and therefore

LDS apologists in essence, I would say Dishonestly cover these things over for example

Let me just read you a few quotations and I'll stick with the 20th century here though The 19th century statements are just as clear

James Talmadge in his book Jesus the Christ Says as the only begotten the father and therefore the only being born to earth

Possessing in their fullness the attributes of both godhood and manhood What other man has lived with power to withstand death over whom death could not prevail except through his own submission?

Yet Jesus Christ could not be slain until his hour had come and that the hour in which he voluntarily Surrendered his life and permitted his own to cease through an act of will

Born of a mortal mother. He inherited the capacity to die Begotten by an immortal sire capitalized s

I re He possessed as a heritage the power to withstand death indefinitely

Only such a one could conquer death in none But Jesus the Christ was realized the requisite condition of Redeemer of the world

And so it is stated by Talmadge that because he was begotten by an immortal sire

He possessed as a heritage the power to withstand death indefinitely Now this is the teaching that you experience in the priesthood sessions when this comes up that Jesus Christ had the power to take his life back because His father was immortal

Here is another passage from the pen of Talmadge that child to be born of Mary was

Begotten of Elohim the Eternal Father not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity celestial sire ship and sire ship is capitalized and pure though mortal maternity

Was of right to be called the son of the highest in His nature would be combined the powers of godhood and the capacity and possibilities of mortality and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity

Declared of God demonstrated by science and admitted by philosophy that living beings shall propagate after their kind The child

Jesus was to inherit the physical mental and spiritual traits tendencies and powers that characterized his parents

Plural one immortal and glorified God the other human woman

Now these words are are clear. The there really isn't any reason

To question them, but let's go to another LDS General Authority Bruce R.

McConkie said these name titles. This is talking about only begotten son These name titles all signify that our

Lord is the only son of the Father in the flesh and let me stop for a moment and say when the

LDS missionaries come to your door and talk to you about Christ listen for that phrase

They will describe Jesus Christ as the only begotten of the Father in The flesh now does that mean that they those two young men understand what they're saying maybe maybe not

But that's they've been taught to say because that is the teaching of the General Authorities I continue on each of the words those again reminding you the words are only begotten son each of the words to be understood literally

Only means only begotten means begotten and son means son

Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers

How much clearer? Could an LDS? Leader put it

Maybe the same one who put it this way The great God the eternal Elohim the father of us all in his love mercy and grace

Condescended to step down from his almighty throne To step down to a lesser and benighted state as it were and become the father of a son after the manner of the flesh

This then is the condescension of God That a God should be get a man

That in a mortal parent should father a mortal son That the creator of all things from the beginning should step down from his high state of exaltation and be for a moment

Like one of the creatures of his creating We have spoken plainly of our

Lord's conception in the womb of Mary in Reality, the plain assertions are found in the revealed word and we have but certify that the words mean what they say and can not be spiritualized away and As it is with reference to our

Lord's mother. So it is as pertaining to his father The scriptures say that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son

The problem is that the intellectually led ministry and laity of the day assume as Satan leads them to do that a name title of this sort is simply figurative and does not have the same literal meaning as When the words are spoken in ordinary conversation

Perhaps again the best service we can render on the issue here involved is somehow to get the message across that words mean what they say and That if Christ is the only begotten of the father it means just that now he continues

Some words scarcely need definition They are on every tongue and are spoken by every voice the very existence of intelligent beings

Presupposes and requires their constant use to such words our father and son

Their meaning is known to all and to define them as but to repeat them Thus a son is a son is a son the father is a father is a father

I am the son of my father and the father of my sons They are my sons because they are begotten by me were conceived by their mother and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life to dwell for a time in a season among other mortal men and so it is with the eternal father and The mortal birth of the eternal son the father is a father is a father and in that place each father is capitalized

He is not a spirit essence or nothingness in which the name father is figuratively applied and the son is a son is a son

All sons capitalized there. He is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal living offspring of an actual father

God is the father Christ is the son the one begat the other Mary provided the womb from which the

Spirit Jehovah came forth tabernacled in clay as all men are To dwell among his fellow spirits whose births are brought to pass in Like manner, there is no need to spiritualize away the plain plain meaning the scriptures

There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension our Lord's coming into mortality He is the

Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers It is just that simple Christ was born of Mary.

He is the Son of God the only begotten of the father end quote well,

I Don't think we could be any plainer than that. That is only one. However of dozens of Citations that I provided in is the

Mormon my brother to demonstrate that this is the LDS teaching now

Obviously then the miracle of the virgin birth is that Mary was a virgin at the time of the birth not at the time of conception and Yet that is what the

Mormon who knows his faith is limited to and believing in the virgin birth is that Mary was a virgin at the time of conception nothing more

That's not the virgin birth. That's not the incarnation It was not one God amongst many gods who became tabernacled in flesh

It was not the offspring of an exalted man from the planet who came to this planet

No, it was the eternal Son who entered into human flesh not through sexual union between an exalted man of a man of flesh and bones as Tangible as any man's as Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22 says no

Instead the power of the Almighty of the Most High overshadowed her and miraculously

Brought about her pregnancy with the God man Now there are many who would agree with what

I just said in response to Mormonism say that is heresy that that's terrible They're Roman Catholics You notice that never in those quotes

I read was she called the Virgin Mary She's called Mary and Roman Catholics speak much of the

Virgin Mary In fact so much they speak of the Virgin Mary that they teach a doctrine called the perpetual virginity of Mary and If you're not aware of it, the

Roman Catholic Church teaches as a dogma That Mary remained perpetually a virgin she had no other children

In fact, here is the statement the deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood

Led the church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even the act of giving birth to the

Son of God made ma 'am in fact Christ's birth did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity, but sanctified it and So the liturgy of the church celebrates

Mary as I Parthenos the ever virgin That is the catechism of the

Catholic Church Now what does this mean Well, it doesn't just mean that Mary Never had other children.

It doesn't just mean that she was never truly the wife of Joseph That they never consummated their marriage.

It doesn't it means all that but it does not all it means In point of fact what it means is she remained physically a virgin even when she gave birth

Now think about that for us just a moment and you will realize what is actually being said and When you then look into the history of the doctrine and I so rarely encounter

Catholics who do you discover That as with the rest of the

Marian dogmas that Rome has defined It does not first appear in the record of history

In Christian documents it appears in pagan or heretical documents

In fact it appears in Gnostic documents it first appears in what's called the ascension of Isaiah chapter 11 verses 8 through 14

We read there the words her womb was found as it was before she became pregnant now the ascension of Isaiah is

Gnostic, what's the connection? Well the Gnostics? One of the groups amongst the

Gnostics were a group called the docetics The docetics taught that Jesus only seemed to have a physical body

He didn't really have a physical body they would go around telling stories about how

Jesus and one of the Apostles would be walking along the seashore and the

Apostle would turn around and there's only one set of tracks Because Jesus doesn't leave tracks and sand because he only seems the

Greek term is dachine He only seems to have a physical body. He doesn't really have one The Apostle John identified such teaching as the teaching of the

Antichrist. He struggled against this falsehood in the early church

Well, isn't it interesting that works such as the ascension of Isaiah the odes of Solomon and the protevangelium of James which are all mishmashes of heretical

Gnosticism from the early 2nd century are the earliest testimonies to this idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary None of the earliest most primitive church fathers said a word about it

Tertullian who lived at the end of the 2nd century spoke of Mary having a normal married life and of her having children.

So What does this mean well think about it if that doctrine is true

Then how was Jesus born? Remember what we said earlier Isaiah chapter 9 for a child will be born to us

Not beamed out of Mary's womb Not some phantom that somehow just what comes out

With no pain See, there'd have to be no pain by the way, think about it if Mary is sinless

If Mary's not under the curse She's kept from original sin. Why would there be pain in birth?

because remember Remember what Genesis says about birth pains I've always found it rather interesting that Roman Catholics like to say that it's

Mary in Revelation chapter 12 who has what? birth pains How could she she never sinned and she wasn't under the stain of original sin and yet birth pain is a part of That hmm.

Well anyways In reality the Roman Catholic position undercuts

The incarnation It's a Gnostic belief not a Christian belief it didn't come from the exegesis of Scripture It's directly contrary to the exegesis of Scripture which speaks of Jesus's brothers

Not cousins not Children of Joseph by a previous marriage

Not children of another Mary other than the Mary of who is his mother

All sorts of excuses have been offered but that's not exegesis It undercuts the reality of the words that we have in Isaiah 9 6 for a child will be born to us a

Son will be given to us and the government will rest on his shoulders and his name will be called wonderful counselor mighty

God eternal father prince of Peace I mentioned earlier.

I Wanted to play for you that section of Handel's Messiah that deals with this very fact and that's what

I'd like to do for you now a beautiful piece of course coming from Handel's Messiah unto us a child is born.

I hope you have the opportunity of Listening to the Messiah sometime during the

Christmas season In fact, I would remind you sadly the Christmas season is supposed to Start on December 25th and extend to January 6th

Remember the 12 days of Christmas, you know, we sing that song, but nobody knows what in the world it means That's what's supposed to happen.

But unfortunately in our modern -day society We have squished it all down to one day

So that when that one day is over, ah, well the holidays are over Let's get ready to go out and get drunk on New Year's or something like that It's it's sad, but I absolutely

Refuse to stop playing my Christmas music on December 26th, and that is my own little rebellion and protest against Against whatever is going on in the society around me.

Well, I am thankful that we have been able to persevere and If you're listening to us

I know that you're listening to us in the archived broadcast because we simply couldn't get through to our server today we hope that we will be able to Make sure that's working a little more consistently in the future.

It is a holiday weekend and so there's always been a reason but We're gonna work on that make it a little bit more consistent so that you folks can

Participate in the program and be a part of it without necessarily just getting for example the people in chat room right now are getting a somewhat blow -by -blow report from one faithful listener who's on hold reporting to them what's being said, so That's very

I'm thankful for those who stick with us And I hope that the information that we shared with you both positively about Isaiah chapter 9 and what it really says

The child will be born to us Truly man and a son will be given to us truly

God Will inform your Christmas celebration coming up in just a few days and Then also the errors the errors of the traditions of men the errors of those religious systems that Compromise the gospel of Jesus Christ that compromise the supremacy of Scripture that those will be

Helpful to you in sharing the gospel maybe even during this holiday season where you may have the opportunity of Sharing with those around you maybe you have family members who are involved in these systems

Hopefully that will be of assistance to you. Thank you for being with us in the dividing line today. We'll be back again