Open Phones on the Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:34

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line. We are taking phone calls today. Well, not phone calls. Why do we even call that anymore?

00:40

We are talking to folks on zoom Eventually, we're gonna find another way to do this because all we're doing by using zoom is

00:51

Aiding the CCP and taking over the world basically, so we'll we'll find another another way to do it right now, we're using zoom and rich posted the instructions for that and I think we have at least one person maybe more

01:09

Two people lined up So if you'd like to do that, unfortunately, you sort of need to have

01:16

Twitter. That's Don't know how else you could do it to build it but before you take the phone calls

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Real quick. I just I will try to remember to link to the video.

01:30

I'm about to mention to you real quick I don't know why I didn't recognize all of this but When I ordered my last project with Jeffrey Rice, which is the

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Beautiful Hebrew text that I'm gonna be using in next month at g3

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And maybe I'll have it for the debate with Gregory Cole's I'm really doubting we're gonna need to be getting into the

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Hebrew of Leviticus, but if we do Maybe I'll have it with me at night.

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But when I was we were talking about what I wanted to look like Jeffrey asked me

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What how do you want the pages died? and I didn't really know what he was referring to and in hindsight.

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It was obvious. I think it was there's a certain other rebinder Alan Alan rebinds that Now in hindsight,

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I realized they they die There when they have gold edging they die those red a special kind of red and that's sort of their mark and I had one

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I had given it to my son -in -law, but I had one And I don't know why

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I didn't think about it. I noticed it, but I just didn't really register and Then the one that Jeffrey gave me as an honorarium for speaking in Tullahoma back in February It likewise had a color to it.

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I think it was red as well. And I don't know how I didn't

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Ask no thing to ask because when he said what do you want the pages died? I'm like, I'm not sure what that means and then he sort of explained it to me and I'm like well

03:19

We're doing black and purple and so let's do purple. Can you do purple? Yeah, I can do purple

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Okay, so I get it and it's just it's just beautiful you open, you know When you're when you're looking at it, normally, it looks just like this

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Tyndale Greek New Testament, it's gold page edging just like you'd normally have but then when you open it up, it's purple and So I had while I was traveling went online.

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I saw somebody else did a video on it and I'm watching it going Oh Okay, and So I contacted

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Jeffrey and asked some questions about supplies and what kind of ink he uses and stuff like that he says

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I'll do a video on it and So he's done that I need to try to remember to Put a

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Link to that for everybody to take a look at Because what I've been doing since then since I got home and I've ordered the inks that I wanted and stuff like that In fact,

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I should have another color waiting for me at home You'll normally see a brown

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NASB 77 back here, but it has orange Ribbons in it.

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And so I'm gonna be doing an orange on the page edges for that But I took you know, normally back here is this

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Tyndale house Greek New Testament so I took this home and I did the page edges and so it would normally when

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I would open it up you just sort of you know, you open up a standard gilded edge and it's sort of the the you can still see the gold but it fades out basically and so when

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I open my Now you can see page edges are red

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To match the cover that I have on this Greek New Testament, and it's not difficult to do

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So I've watched two videos some other guy and then I did everything that Jeffrey said to do basically

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Because I'm doing his Bibles, I'm not sure I guess that was important to do but Your wife or you if you're the lady of the house

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I'm not sure if we should allow ladies to do this. They're like Sorry, I didn't mean to get into that.

05:38

Um But Riches Yeah, I'm staying out of that stuff man like no no no not touching that one the 10 -foot pole and Your wife probably has

05:55

Everything you need not the inks, but the you're just using standard though the wedges for applying makeup and you've got these

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Oval pads take some of the excess off afterwards And that's pretty much it that and the the ink pads and reinkers and for an entire color

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It's like 12 bucks something like that Ranger ink archival ink

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I think is what it's called and You know, so once I found how to get those it's pretty easy so real quick this was one of the first Bound texts that I had made actually this was the first bound text.

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I had me, okay It's a UBS 3rd edition corrected

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Greek New Testament This first one I had made It's so old that I walked into The bedroom and I read the phone numbers

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That are still in the front of this To my wife and she's looking at me going Yeah Rings a real faint bell these these were the numbers this was the the one number is scratched out was the number we had when

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I lived with my parents after we got married for like six months and Then the second number was the number we had at the apartment

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And so this is this is old. This was just standard white paper and So I did it in a yellow

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Color and it really makes it nice. And this is 90 this is well almost

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It's almost 40 years old this one right here. It's quite old and then this one

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This one you can now buy. It's called Biblia Sacra. You can buy a

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Hebrew Old Testament Greek New Testament bound together from United Bible Societies I think they use the

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Nessie Olin text but they didn't have back when I wanted this they didn't have that and So I've told the story before we had a

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Jehovah's Witness fellow who was a bookbinder and so as a way of having contact with him and you know being a witness to him and so he took a

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UBS text and the small Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia and he

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He had to shave Some of the edges of the

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Biblia Hebraica to make them fit and then he bound them together So like I said, they you don't have to do this anymore.

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You can buy it in this way And then he did try to gild you see the reflective he tried to gild the pages

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But it never worked all that. Well, it was not like, you know, the mirror shiny that you've got on something like that it was there, but it never worked all that one and so I did this and Did it in the same yellow as the other one there?

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And it actually improved the the gild looking part of it

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But again, we're talking nearly 40 year old texts here and it really it's a neat little it's so old.

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Here's my Hebrew verb chart taped in the back and The Only reason

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I know that this is a Greek syntax chart is

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Because I remember it's a Greek syntax. I can't read it It's it's too small.

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I'd have to get the old man glasses out like Captain Kirk Well, actually there they're okay.

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I can there we go. I can see gravel sharps rule there But accusative direct object adverbial accusative a measure of manner of relevance of termination

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Yeah, there they all are I need to go back over all that stuff again But like I said, what

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I'll do is I will link to Jeffrey Rice's Video on how to do this and I am

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NOT a crafty type person. Okay, I'm really not So it can't be that hard to do if if I can succeed

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It can't be that hard to do but it's a really neat effect To have one color when it's closed and then a different color that like matches the ribbons or or the the cover or whatever when you open it up and Unless you're just really really really lacking in care.

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It's sort of hard to mess it up So I Would recommend it to you you might find it enjoyable.

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Hey, it makes your Bible yours different than everybody else's type of a situation, so Sort of neat.

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So I'll I'll try to remember next week when I bring the NESB back to show you how that turned out with the orange because I've not done that color

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But it'll match the ribbons and the stitching on the brown cover. So that's what we'll be doing

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Okay, so that's all I've got. I mean, there's so many things we could be talking about But we will let them sort of pile up for the next thing.

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Oh You're gonna move me over there, why are you gonna move me over there? I don't know.

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Oh, I Don't know what's going on, but something's going on. So I guess I'm gonna need to look over this direction.

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So anyway, alright, let's Actually, I just realized rich hasn't been sending me any information as to who is

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Online what their names are. I got nothing in signal Because you forgot to do that,

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I guess Okay, alright so and then you'll give me the rest of them maybe so All right.

12:13

Let's let's talk to Lucas Welcome to the vying line Hi, dr.

12:20

White, how are you? Oh, not too bad Um, I really appreciate your ministry and such especially your advocacy for social scripture

12:29

It's really encouraging. But um, I just have an open question I was just I was wondering if you can share some of your comments on Rush Dooney and his theology you know positions you agree or disagree with and why well,

12:46

I You know rich rich mentioned what the the topic was and I I don't claim to be any expert on Russus Rush Dooney I've read a few of his books.

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I would like to have the time. I mean I have Institutes of Biblical Law If I could get

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Institutes of Biblical Law in Audio format then

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I might find the time to work through it But I'm not even sure that that's the kind of material that can be listened to overly.

13:21

Well To be honest with you but I Know I I was introduced to him

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Through my fellow elder at Phoenix for a Baptist Church. I remember We'd very frequently have

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Very interesting conversations in the parking lot after Services, I don't remember if it's a

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Sunday night or a Wednesday night but we were talking about divorce and remarriage and He mentioned the fact that There were a number of sins

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In the Old Testament law in the Mosaic law that brought about de facto divorce because it required the execution of the person who had committed the sin and If your spouse it has been executed

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You're freed from the marriage Because it doesn't say, you know, you know death dissolves that union and it doesn't say why the death had to take place and The reality is that the law commands that if you if your spouse seeks to Draw you away from the worship of Yahweh that you're to be one of the first ones to not only report this but in a really tough text of scripture be one of the first ones to cast the stone and So the the point was

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I Had never even thought about the fact that The law would provide for a

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De facto divorce for idolatry, but it did there there wasn't a question about it and I was like I Had never heard anyone saying anything about that and he was like, yeah

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I was working through a section of Institutes biblical law by Rush Dooney and ran into that and had the same

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Reaction you did I hadn't really thought about that and so I know

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That I've heard That he had extreme views on this subject of that subject.

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I've not taken kept a list of what they allegedly were But when

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I have taken the time To listen because there's a lot of Rush Dooney material available in audio and To consider obviously on so many fronts.

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He was like Francis Schaeffer Prophetic as to where the culture was going.

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He saw the impossibility of maintaining the myth of neutrality

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Which is Which is what the church was trying to do for a long long time was to maintain the myth of neutrality and And So I Have just generally very positive

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I've had very positive interactions with what I have read And I know that toward the end of the mission of God by Joe boot

16:45

He provided well all actually all the way through the book he provided a sort of running apologetic

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For Rush Dooney, so he would say critics have said X Y & Z But in reality if you look at this this and this so on so forth so There would be much better prepared people to interact with the criticisms because I've I've never been a critic

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And I've never had any interest in in Studying the critics to be perfectly honest with you

17:18

Um but obviously, you know, there would be major differences in ecclesiology and and I've been told that there was some applications of the

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Mosaic Law that you know a lot of us have disagreements even amongst theonomists as to exactly how things should be applied and differences between Rush Dooney and Bonson and but anybody living after Rush Dooney in That field is going to be influenced by him one way or the other and So I Would say well worth

17:57

Obtaining and looking at but I don't believe you have to you know, I I Disagreed with Greg Bonson on stuff

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I'm just not one of those people that you have to you have to Speak the same way and preach the same way and believe everything identical to everybody else and that gets me into trouble with a lot of a lot of people so anyway

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I'm not sure if that's helpful at all, but That's where I would come down. Oh Thank you so much.

18:29

I really appreciate it It just like helps contextualize, you know the way people view

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Rush Dooney, especially since it's been Nearly or exactly or over 20 years since he passed.

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Yeah, and just seeing the immense impact he still has Is really interesting. Well, you know, you've got a

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I've got to admit now. I was young man back then but when

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I see men of the past Who had the capacity to see what was coming long before it happened?

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That had the ability to think things through and to not be Limited by The the current vibes and and popular movements we can look back now we can see who they were and there weren't that many of them

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Francis Schaefer and Bruce's Rush Dooney were two of them that You now you now listen to what they were saying and you wonder

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Was this recorded yesterday because they're addressing Exactly what's going on now and to be honest with you back

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Then if I had heard Rush Dooney saying some of the things Rush Dooney was saying I wouldn't have had any context to even understand what in the world he was talking about So in those instances when you see people like that you've got to give them some extra credit that they were so far ahead of their time and Saw where the trends were going with an amazing level of clarity not perfection

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But an amazing level of clarity because as we sit around right now It's easy to Opine about the zaniness is taking place

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But it's much harder to have a meaningful exhortation to say this is what we need to be doing because this is what's happening and this is what it's gonna lead to and Therefore, that's the hard part.

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That's the hard part. It really really is so you've got to give him you got to give him credit for that and You know,

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I would I was at a conference in February and the

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Cal Sun Foundation was there and I am quite certain that they would be

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I'm quite uncertain that they would have publications That would go far more in the depth than I can in Answering a lot of the common criticisms that are that are out there

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And I'm sure they'd be happy to send those to you. Thank you so much.

21:09

Dr. Wei I really appreciate your ministry and God bless. Okay. Well, thank you for calling in today or Zooming in today or whatever we call these days

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Keep listening. God bless. All right, so that opens up, you know We used to it was so easy in the olden days that opens up a line at eight seven seven seven five three three

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Three one so we don't have that number anymore. So and I don't know who does We saw that it oh

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Oh, I didn't know that. Okay I thought we had gotten rid of it, but notice

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I have it memorized We finally threw the paper out that it was in here for ages

21:51

Oh So rich was rich is playing with cameras today. I'm not really sure why I'm sure there was some

21:57

I think a preset didn't work Right for him. You have a phantom pop.

22:09

You see you see I'm old enough now that I don't hear Does it matter

22:16

That that's why old people like LPS because they don't hear all the pops and this is anyways.

22:22

It's just sounds great to them Go for it Okay, let's go to our next

22:30

Zoomer listener something. I don't know Jason how you doing

22:35

Jason? I'm good. How are you? Dr. White? Not too bad Hey, um,

22:41

I'm glad I got a hold of you. Um, I've been trying to get on your radio program for a while but here we are

22:48

I've Got to know Alma all read through your through your ministry with him

22:56

And well through your your dialogues and everything and some of the videos that you've done about him and me and him has had a lot of back -and -forth and I first came to know about Mormonism back in 2017 when my

23:11

I went on a college I was went on Baptist College and our professor was writing a dissertation on Mormonism And he took us up to be like you to have interfaith dialogues with with the people at BYU and UVU and After that trip,

23:28

I started trying to get in contact with an older Mormon Who would understand some of the things that the

23:34

LDS church teaches because frankly not a lot of the younger Mormons understood Yeah, yeah, but I'm having to laugh just a little bit because Alma Alma wasn't all that old when

23:46

I first met him and But now I do refer to him in in a friendly manner as one of the three

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Nephites Because he He looks like one of the three Nephites He and I both

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Now he has white hair on his head I don't have any hair on my head, but I've definitely got on my chin

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So I could be one of the three three Nephites too if I was a Mormon, which I'm not but anyways, yes

24:16

It's been Wow, I'm trying to I'm trying to think back now and I think we talked about this every time we have dialogues

24:24

Even though since he lives in Italy now, we don't have dialogues anymore But I went

24:29

I went to Italy to visit him back in March. You went to Italy to visit

24:36

Alma all red Yes, it was it was awesome. He took me all around Italy, you know, he speaks fluent

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Italian and He took me we and him went to Milan. We went to Florence Venice and All around Rome and I've actually stayed at his house in Salt Lake a couple times.

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He invited me out and And I've had a lot of meetings that we've had we've set in his living room and had discussions for hours

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And matter of fact He gave me the binder of you all of your his dialogues from back in the day and let me read or read all

25:12

So what was it? What was the dates on those? back in the back in the 80s in 90s

25:22

Yeah, it was probably it probably started late 80s. Yeah, I would 89.

25:27

Yeah, that sounds about right That's because we started doing we started going up to Salt Lake around Well 84 was my first trip up there, but we really started doing it about 85 86

25:40

So, yeah, it was a few years in when When I ran into him at the

25:46

Southgate and that led to all those long long letters. Yeah Yeah, it's been

25:52

You know something about him that I really admire Yeah, and it's better you as well

25:57

It shows his ability to talk to people who you disagree with but still I mean maintain a cordial conversation

26:05

Well, yeah, I don't know if he told you I don't know if he told you about the fact that when he was visiting

26:11

Phoenix once I hope he doesn't mind. I mentioned this. I was doing a Study at a rather wealthy friend's house actually and But it was on grieving because my book had just come out on the subject of grieving and Alma came to that study on on grieving and I mean, you know,

26:36

I mean we all grieve whether Mormons or anybody else, obviously and I remember standing out in the in the driveway of that home talking with him about especially about his uncles and Polygamy and how many offspring they have and all sorts of very interesting things like that After that particular encounter, so yeah.

27:00

Yeah. In fact, I heard from him just a few weeks ago He sent me some stuff about some things there in in Italy.

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So Yeah, we go a long ways back But I've I've certainly I would it would be very difficult

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Even if I was still flying for me to just go to Italy just simply to visit with Alma So that's so that's yeah.

27:18

Well, can I can I ask you something about the dialogue with him? So when you talk about oh the thing that I think

27:27

I get first or anything about is He understands the

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Trinity Better than most Christians do right? Oh However, oh

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When you bring up Isaiah 44 12 and you and you talk to him about those verses

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The mental gymnastics that has to take place in order for his his his view of the

27:51

Mormon view To do that. It just frustrates me to no end because I know he understands what we're talking about but he cannot

28:02

His His filter through Joseph Smith will not allow him to to view the

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Trinity the way that me and you understand the truth Well, you know now I'm I'm going to assume

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That Alma is going to be listening to this. Okay, if he's not listening now He certainly will

28:20

Be listening to it. So we're both getting to talk to him at the same time, I guess in essence and Obviously You know the

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I'm not sure exactly how many dialogues he and I have done Not including all this stuff in the past, but I mean the ones at the

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University I think it was at least two may have been three. But anyway It is frustrating for for that reason and it manifests itself to me in The fact that in the last dialogue we had

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I'm sitting there going Alma, you know That the church is changing, you know that what the

29:03

LDS Church is saying today and How it's presenting its theology and how it's presenting the temple ceremonies and I always have to be careful

29:12

I mean, you know you when you're in Utah, there's only so much you can say about the temple ceremonies without causing a riot, but Those ceremonies have changed radically

29:26

Since he and I first met and You see what the church is doing today and I'm just like Alma, you know that if in in that first encounter that he and I had at the

29:38

South Gate if If I had said to him

29:44

That in 20 years the LDS Church would be doing what the LDS Church is doing now

29:50

Culturally in regards to homosexuality and all the rest of type of stuff he would have said

29:55

I was absolutely nuts But that's where they are and and he knows that and he's not the only

30:02

Mormon that I have conversations with That I'm sort of like guys

30:09

You you see what I'm seeing, you know, you you know it better than I know it you live it you know how much things are changing and And Yet they just refuse to take the red pill and you know, the only the only way that that that can happen is

30:30

You know, this is a spiritual issue It's not it's not how you can argue more effectively or you know

30:35

If you are if you could argue with him in Italian, that would make the difference. No it That's not the issue at all.

30:41

It is a spiritual issue and It definitely sobers me

30:48

And Reminds me to once again pray for him because I really like Alma.

30:56

He's a wonderful he is a really wonderful guy and You know the older I get the more people that I know in various groups

31:06

That are just wonderful people there. I know wonderful Muslims. I know wonderful Roman Catholics and The temptation is

31:20

To just go well, you know, it's it's all gonna work out in the end it really doesn't matter but neither one of us actually believes that and Alma doesn't believe that and I don't believe that and and we can't we you know, we can't both be right and So the temptation is to just shove the differences under the table

31:41

Well, you can't especially with Mormonism as they're too big. They're too foundational or too fundamental but it does it is a sobering reminder of The ease with which many

31:53

Christians I think Engage in these topics You know,

31:59

I had a back and I was having a back and forth the with a Mormon on Twitter this past week

32:07

Not a standard Mormon name now Alma Allred is about as Mormon a name as you can have I think

32:13

You can't you know That's that's right there next to Brigham Young as far as as being a

32:18

Mormon name. This guy had an almost Arabic name and Yet he was he was doing the the standard

32:27

LDS apologetic stuff and I mean he just completely dismissed the book of Abraham and and you know,

32:33

I can't remember Having a conversation with Alma. Maybe I'm wrong about this

32:40

About the book. Oh, I can tell you. Okay, so I'm sorry for interrupting.

32:45

No, please please go The I've had that conversation with him about the book of Abraham and he says that he believes over time

32:53

We will come to find out that Joseph Smith's got a lot more right than what the critics say about the book Abraham It does he do that by dismissing the

33:02

Egyptian alphabet and grammar? Um He said the classic line of That it wasn't a it wasn't a translation of the

33:13

Revelation. Yeah. Yeah. Well and okay you have to it and and so I I would say this to Alma if he was sitting here with me if You if we were discussing this in 1840

33:35

Okay, 1842 Okay, let's let's go after Smith's death at 1850 if we are discussing this subject on the basis of what had been

33:45

Published at that point in the official church records in the times and seasons or whatever else

33:52

These statements were found in there wouldn't be any Question at all of what

33:58

Joseph Smith was claiming in regards to his prophetic ability to translate the

34:06

Egyptian language And we would all recognize that this is directly related to his claims to have been able to translate the

34:13

Book of Mormon itself and Well, yeah, I mean it's it's in the first when you open up the book

34:19

Abraham. It says that it's a translation yeah, I I know I know and and So what you're what you're seeing happening and I don't

34:29

I don't know if this is happening with Alma But I'm seeing happening with so many Mormons with whom I dialogue now is a willingness to basically said yes

34:38

Say yes, I know What Joseph Smith said? but Really we need to understand it in this way and and and Alma knows that You know who would have absolutely slapped him across the face

34:59

For saying something like that was Bruce R. McConkie Yeah, yeah, I mean that was a different kind of Mormonism back then and I can only hope and pray that that at some point

35:13

The Spirit of God Makes Alma and every other Mormon who knows their history just go.

35:20

Wait a minute I Can't bend that far. I cannot I cannot pretend that we're not changing that far because we are and If Smith was wrong about that then all these other claims especially the foundational claims of revelation regarding the nature of God that are utterly unbiblical and so foreign to What Christians have believed all along?

35:50

That that there's no reason to continue to accept those things but look brother

35:56

I Alma is a good example of of why I tell people it's not a matter of Having all your arguments in a line and being able to quote

36:08

LDS sources and and everything else And in fact, I've said on the program before that when we first met outside the

36:17

South Gate and He came up to me and initiated the conversation

36:25

There was a spiritual element involved there was a spiritual element involved by the way for those of you who are wondering

36:32

I Keep looking down this direction because rich put a speaker down there. So I first I feel like I'm talking to Jason So I'm looking down toward where the voice is coming from instead of looking at the camera, which is really sort of stupid

36:44

But it's just human nature, I guess but anyways something spiritual happened in that situation

36:51

I Remember very very clearly and I think I've told Alma this I remember very very clearly having a very strong impression that I needed to stick to the central biblical issues

37:08

That I knew the best in my conversation with this man

37:15

Because he's very brilliant. Yes, he's very bright and and So I didn't

37:21

I didn't go into anything in regards to LDS history or anything else. I Stuck very much with the

37:28

Bible and its testimony at that point in time Which is where I was strongest and that was obviously the spirits leading at that point in time if if if that first conversation

37:42

Hadn't gone that way then we wouldn't have had all that All those long letters and everything else that's happened since then over the years so if I recognize the spirits role at the beginning that I have to recognize the spirits role all the way through and so Jason your your call has

38:04

Reminded me to pray once again and fervently for Alma all read and to call upon all the

38:12

Christians in the audience to pray for Alma all read I remember Be and if and and if it means anything to you,

38:20

I remember the frustration that you're talking about Jason because Alma is the fellow and he'll tell you this.

38:28

I'm sure he's probably told this already when I wanted to send him something I Decide was obviously irrelevant to send him any books on Mormonism or anything like that He knew all that's the already knew all the arguments.

38:40

I sent him the holiness of God by R .C. Sproul and I did my thinking was

38:49

Here is an element of God's nature That from a Christian perspective is so different.

38:58

It can't be understood from an LDS perspective Well, he really liked the book Which frustrated me all the more

39:06

Because I'm sorry. Go ahead. I said I've seen him stuff of A .W.

39:13

Tozer. Yeah, and he and he loved and he he likes all that stuff Um, but I still think when he reads things he he reads it through the lens

39:22

Yes of Joseph Smith and not through the the lens of the New Testament Yeah, and my prayer for him is that he's gonna he's gonna realize eventually it's not really

39:32

Joseph Smith anymore the the church has moved so far from Smith that it's

39:40

It's it's really something it does not have any historical connection any any longer to Smith unless he's gonna buy some concept of Development, you know sort of like a

39:51

Newman development hypothesis type idea under the power of the priesthood or something like that But the problem he knows this he knows that when the church in essence

40:01

Threw Bigham Young under the bus for his racial comments He knows that the vast majority of priesthood lines in the modern

40:10

LDS Church go through Bigham Young and so He's got to he's you know

40:18

I just got to believe that he's struggling with a lot of these things and we just want to pray that that will eventually lead to a

40:26

Recognition that the the Holy God that Sproul was talking about Just can't work with an exalted man that lives on a planet that circles a star named

40:35

Kolob Yeah, yeah that lens isn't there but you know, what?

40:41

One more thing if I may sure So, um me and you would differ on your

40:48

Calvinist. I'm not and so we

40:53

I think I appreciate your your friendship with Dr. Brown because y 'all seem to have where he's not a

41:00

Calvinist and y 'all are able to have that sort of relationship that y 'all have and so And so that's a whole nother topic for another day

41:09

I will you know, if I had the time I would like to speak to you about Calvinism, but that's not you know, the reason for my call today, but Yes, I would and I want to say this, you know on the air because I'm gonna hear this.

41:21

Um, oh my if you're listening I'm in I'm saying this with all respect.

41:27

I believe that the Joseph's the Bible the Jesus of Joseph Smith is not the

41:35

Jesus of the New Testament and that I'm Sorry that you have been lied to In the church has you know presented to Jesus.

41:44

It's not biblical but me and James both Earning know the biblical

41:52

Jesus and we both pray that you come to see that And I respect you.

41:57

You've been very kind to me And so I just thought I would you know

42:03

Put that all on the open because I've said him directly before I said my desire for you

42:08

Is that you come to know the biblical Jesus? Well, I've said that straight up to him. Oh sure. And so I'm not had

42:14

I don't you know sugarcoat things But um, like you said earlier it is so easy to sometimes say well, maybe this will all work out in the end

42:23

But when it comes to build the truth, we had to stand on what we know to be true And so, you know, you know, that's like that's why

42:31

I wanted to say that well good well Jason I appreciate I hope you'll You'll pray with me for for Alma all red and if if Alma ever comes back to to Utah, I'm sure that Jason Wallace will be getting in touch with him and trying to drag him over the

42:48

U of U for yet another dialogue And maybe you can make it. I would I would love to meet you in person one day

42:56

I'll respect your work and I appreciate your your work on Mormonism And everything

43:04

And so and you've also helped me in regards to the Trinity Because I used to be

43:09

I guess I'm my understanding the Trinity before was kind of moralistic And so I appreciate your your work on that as well.

43:16

Excellent. Well, excellent Thank you, Jason for your call, and I'm gonna be praying for for Alma today, and I hope you will too.

43:23

I God bless you. Thank you. Oh, that was we took took a while there, but that's because If you're not familiar with the dialogues that we've done up in Salt Lake City and a number of them with Alma all red and the fact that I've you know,

43:42

I've mentioned down through the years you you can talk to a lot of Mormons that especially today especially today

43:48

That have no earthly idea what they believe they have no earthly idea what Mormonism is taught in the past and to be honest with you,

43:56

I Would really be surprised if even Alma disagreed with my staying that since the 19

44:04

Over the past 20 years there has been a systemic failure on the

44:11

LDS churches part in catechizing or training its people I Was amazed at some of the conversations

44:19

I had it the one night I was able to make the Easter pageant The one night that I was there. I was like at a

44:26

Mormon saying I don't know why we're all disagreeing about this because You know, we've all been baptized and we accept your baptism.

44:34

And and so why are we and I'm sitting there going You do What? No, you don't

44:41

We weren't baptized under some priesthood authority, I know what you I know what the official teaching of the church is on this

44:47

But but they just don't know they just don't know so things have changed things have changed a lot and all was just good example of a well -read

44:56

Mormon who knows they believe and You you have to if you prepare for his level of Mormon, then you'll be ready for all the lesser levels of Mormons, too

45:06

But it's it can be challenging. Anyways, we've got a lot of people to get to so I'm gonna have to Pick up the pace here this first one doesn't look like we're gonna pick up the pace, but Anyway, let's talk with Paul.

45:20

Hi Paul You know, dr. White good to be talking again. How are you? Oh that that the other

45:26

Paul? Okay. All right How you doing that Paul? Yes, sir. I Hope you're I hope you're just sleeves on right now.

45:34

I Do fun. Well, well, here's a funny thing I don't but I also do I have my tank top, but I also have a nice and thick jacket on Oh, it is winter down there, isn't it?

45:44

It is. Yes. Okay. All right All right, let's do it

45:50

Excellent. Well, I've definitely relevant for your for your coming debates with Trent Horne because I definitely gained an interest in in when he started to What's the term like hitches hitches cart or whatever to the whole

46:06

John C Poirier his they honest us work and what have you I won't do the esoteric Greek pronunciation system

46:12

I use I'll just I'll just say that and The big thing with me that I that I got an interest in is that this is very it's highly technical stuff

46:21

But it's very easy for when someone throws like oh look this big Really advanced scholar has this major work that proves that it doesn't mean

46:30

Divinely inspired despite pretty much everyone before the 21st century asserting such and the issue

46:37

I can see is a related issue from when I Almost on myself almost left the faith entirely back in like what 2017 because I was gone neck -deep into the super scholarly

46:50

Works on like all the Gospels aren't historical They're anonymous blah blah blah and I was another layman who had no idea about these topics back then

46:57

And so it was just kind of just me versus these scholars saying things that I know and just overwhelming me and that's like I Didn't know what to do.

47:04

And so I can see with countless other people Both both Romanists and and and Protestant looking at this major work by a scholar.

47:12

It's like oh wow This is well beyond me. He he must have some some kind of esoteric Scholarly insight beyond my comprehension.

47:19

So therefore maybe it maybe it really doesn't mean Breathe out by God or some or some manner.

47:26

So I wanted to ask what would you say? some Necessary principles things to do things to look out for for laymen who are otherwise there.

47:36

They're not linguists They don't know collinear Greek or what have you they don't do linguistic study What would you propose as?

47:43

principles for them to abide by When a work like Poirier's is kind of shoved in their face as a proof something that can help them like Calm them down a bit and not get overwhelmed by.

47:55

Oh, well, it's this scholar He says something massive like what what can they how can they still look at this work?

48:01

And at least do some level of critical interaction, even if it's outside of their their field well what you used to be able to start off with and it because of the overwhelming amount of Material that is being produced now

48:16

You know there there was a reason why in Western thought anyways, you had such a thing as critical review.

48:26

That is you would have You would have material published in scholarly journals and before it would actually come out.

48:33

It would have to be reviewed by other experts in the field and unfortunately

48:39

James Lindsay and his Cohorts just about what was it ten years ago now?

48:46

Demonstrated that the peer review system of Western academia has become a joke

48:55

It's become a joke for a lot of different reasons Money is a big big big big part of those things

49:03

You can't get published outside of pushing certain narratives outside of not touching certain things

49:11

In all sorts of fields and that sadly even within the church That that that's the case as well.

49:17

So we used to have sort of a firewall To where if someone came up with something that was just completely off the wall

49:26

There would be Enough pushback to stop something like that. The problem the mindset in Western academia now is

49:34

The weirder and more unique it is the better and so I mean I can't imagine anyone

49:41

Prior to the 1950s taking the gender studies area Seriously as even viewing it as having any merit whatsoever

49:52

Why is it accepted today? Well because the whole system has been corrupted by massive amounts of government money and grants and and Endowed chairs and everything else and so the the thing that one of the things that bothered me about Trent horns use of this is

50:10

Okay, this comes out in book form in 2022 it has not been vetted as yet.

50:18

And unfortunately once it comes out in that form There is no guarantee that it's going to be vetted in any formal fashion at all.

50:26

I Haven't found it yet, but I remember About four or five years ago

50:35

I'm gonna have to dig it up. It's somewhere on my hard drive. Unfortunately, my hard drives 8 terabytes in size.

50:42

Um, I Was sent a paper. It wasn't a book, but it's a paper Presenting a completely different understanding of Theodosius.

50:52

It had nothing to do with vivification giving of life Anything and it didn't have anything to do with being

50:58

God breathed either and it was so off the wall I don't remember what it was. I need to find it.

51:03

But the point was that That's how you get published in academia

51:09

You're not going to get published if you find further evidence of what has already been believed

51:16

About the meaning of a particular term. You're not gonna get published because well that's already out there

51:22

So it's not unique and so it doesn't matter so the problem is Western academia when it comes to Christian theology is

51:32

Fundamentally geared toward producing heresy Because heresy will get published heresies new heresies if it's old we don't want it if it's been believed before who cares and that's a real real problem a really big problem, in fact, and so when you see something new, especially

51:53

If something comes out in 2022 and I guess it came out in the UK in 2021.

52:00

Okay, so but the English moves slowly Your first thought should be this hasn't even been examined yet You know, you can get something published without it going through any kind of meaningful

52:15

Pushback or anything like that, you know, especially if you're like teaching in a particular college They want you to get published and so you're gonna you know, follow all the the lines to get that type of stuff published

52:26

There's there's been no time for there to be any critical pushback or response or review or anything else on it.

52:33

So patience And this was known look look Going all the way back in the

52:39

West. No one would take something brand -new Seriously, if it had not gone through Years of being examined and being found to be solid it just that was just how things were

52:53

There was no internet pushing you to do things at the speed of light But that's all changed.

52:59

And so Christians need to be patient and go Okay, so someone's come up with a new a new claim

53:08

The reality is that for example back in the 1800s it was very very common

53:15

For people to claim that the Hittites didn't exist as a civilization and The Bible had just made it up.

53:22

It was all fiction Well now we have all sorts of Hittite artifacts

53:29

This hadn't been found yet. And so did people leave the faith in the 1800s?

53:34

Maybe That would I'd have a theological answer for that but they didn't they shouldn't have because it was a premature thing or Oh, there was another one.

53:46

It just crossed my mind and that's it just popped out too. There was another Oh You know

53:52

German scholarship was absolutely convinced in the 1870s that the

53:58

Gospel of John was written no earlier than 170 175 and then

54:04

I mean that's and that that was a consensus view and Then some

54:11

British guys Rummaging through a bunch of papyri that they stole from Egypt when the

54:17

British were charged in a basement in 1932

54:23

I think it was and he amazingly Recognizes this tiny little scrap of papyrus about yay big is from the

54:33

Gospel of John and they send it to Four of the leading scholars of the day on papyrology

54:40

Three of them put it at 125 one puts it in the first century. That's why we date it around 150 25 years either direction and an entire library full of German critical scholarship went up in smoke of by one single manuscript fine okay, so stuff like that happens and so you have to be patient and You can't just go.

55:07

Oh Someone has newly come up with a new theory There it has to be vetted over time

55:16

These these discovery, you know the whole tomb story remember that the Talpiot tomb story

55:22

Well, I do not you do not well see Now I am crushed because that means

55:29

That you did not read this book called from Toronto to Emmaus Which was my no one ever bought it and read it anywhere ultimate refutation of the

55:42

Talpiot tomb story. Yeah, which appeared on Good Morning America and You know had all this media

55:51

What what? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they appeared on Good Morning America.

55:57

No one's ever had me on good No one ever will have me on Good Morning America. What are you talking about? Anyway? Well, if any you should cut me some slack.

56:04

I'm only a 23 year old Australian Well, okay. See so this was Well, I'm not sure which is worse the

56:12

Australian part or the other part but So, okay, so this happened when you were

56:25

Let's see 13 14 15 16 you were seven So I will

56:32

I will let I will let this one slide Okay, you were only seven years old and so I can understand why you weren't watching

56:39

Good Morning America And we're not concerned about theories based upon Gnostic Gospels and all the rest that stuff though.

56:45

You might find the book interesting Because I dug up a lot of stuff

56:50

I wrote it in 17 days as I recall so the point being stuff like this pops up and then disappears

57:01

Sometimes within a few weeks and sometimes in a few years and then nobody even thinks about it anymore.

57:07

So be be aware of the fact that there is a bias

57:13

In the Academy to produce material like this There is not a bias to filter it out and so keep that in mind realize if it's brand new it hasn't been vetted yet and Be patient and see when people start interacting with it.

57:34

Basically, that's that's what I would say Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Basically just filter out the whole mindset of all my scholars

57:43

They're these great priests of knowledge because that's that's the thing. I think that really trips a lot of people up just yep, the

57:50

Colossal modernist idea where well like the concept of a priesthood has never really been axed away since the

57:56

No, it's all the experts the experts are the priests now, yeah, yeah

58:02

Yeah. Yep. You're right. No toys about it. All right, brother I appreciate it and we'll be we'll continue chatting with you and keep to keep that jacket on I heard it's been cold down there this year

58:13

Thank you. Yes came to keep it happening. Catch you later. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye okay

58:20

Shane and We'll try to get to Shane and sway. I'm sorry. I can't well There's no way

58:26

I can cover Colossians 116 1st Corinthians 86 John 1 3 and Jehovah's Witnesses Today, so we'll just have to go with Shane and sway.

58:34

Are they still there? Okay, Shane Go ahead. Can you hear me?

58:40

I can Go ahead Yes, I was actually gonna ask a question about what you thought about the

58:52

Assembly of God and Wokeness and just to give a little bit of a background here I am a minister in the

58:59

Assembly of God But very recently the kind of national structure has told the the district in the sections

59:08

Which is basically like state and county level type things in the denomination. They've told them that they're going to begin instituting like a an

59:18

Ethnic quota and like a gender quota Every board on the section district level is required to have at least one ethnic minority and one woman on the

59:29

Presbyter board and of course, you know on the district level and everything they have these special Ceremonies where they're recognizing and honor is the honoring, you know ethnic pastors and just a strange emphasis on Race and gender type things and and you can see these things creeping in to the denomination and Before as you give your answer here

59:55

I'm pretty close with the Presbyter in my section and I told him when he told me about this I said brother if this is the direction that denomination wants to go it's gonna split right down the middle in ten years and It seems like a lot of people just aren't aware of the issues

01:00:10

I'm curious what your thoughts and insights on that kind of well You know The only thing that we would be worse than it splitting would be it not splitting and everybody just going along Because the reality is you can see

01:00:26

I did a debate with Barry Lynn on Homosexuality at a

01:00:32

PC USA Church in 2001 on Long Island and It was one of the last

01:00:38

PC USA churches that was trying to hold out against the wholesale collapse of the denomination on sexual morality and Of course, you know it it has collapsed.

01:00:50

Totally the PC USA has on that that particular subject and So, you know those

01:00:57

Last faithful churches. They just had to leave they had to go. They had to go someplace else And so I would

01:01:04

I would hope that there would be enough people to fight the fight and if if a split needs to happen then a split needs to happen because You know, obviously

01:01:15

I've got all sorts of disagreements with my assemblies of God's friends on various issues but the fact the matter is

01:01:24

If you're gonna be talking about the spirits ministry in the church How in the world can anyone ever come up with the idea that The spirit of that the gifts of the

01:01:37

Spirit of God can be ethnically and genderly Derived and limited

01:01:45

I mean Can't the Spirit of God build the church in the way the

01:01:50

Spirit of God this determines to build the church It's just to me my argument since 2018

01:01:59

Against this woke movement has been it fundamentally misunderstands the basis of Christian unity which is found in the fact that whether you're a

01:02:10

Gentile or a Jew male female slave or master Colossians chapter 3 there is one renewal by one spirit and It is a fundamental

01:02:25

Distrust a lack of faith the Spirit of God can build the church as the Spirit chooses to do so By gifting the people he chooses to gift to say well actually we have we have to have this many of this color and that many of that color as If you can tell the

01:02:42

Spirit of God how to build the church and where to build the church and how fast to build the church And everything else it is it just it's it's a just a complete

01:02:52

Abandonment of how Christians used to understand the unity of the church and where it came from and that renewing work of the

01:03:01

Spirit as the defining mark of What the church is and now now it's based on DEI requirements and and in fact,

01:03:11

I'd tell you brother I'm saying this to more and more people follow the money because Big denominations have big bank accounts.

01:03:23

They have to deal with banks and Those banks are requiring these

01:03:30

DEI diversity equity inclusion inclusion parameters to give meaningful interest rates

01:03:39

People don't know this But when I never thought about that Why did

01:03:44

Budweiser do what Budweiser did because they're people holding their loans told them to and Why is

01:03:53

Disney doing what Disney's doing this is coming from the banks it's coming from the financial sector, which is completely woke and so look at look at if you're

01:04:03

Presbyter someone who has some connection to You know might be able to get information find out where they're doing their banking

01:04:11

Find out where they're getting their loans find out who's got that kind of influence because You can't really defend this stuff from any kind of meaningful theological standpoint

01:04:23

So, where is it coming from? Where is this impetus coming from? It'd be interesting to find out

01:04:29

It would be interesting to find out because it's it's not coming from trusting the Holy Spirit. It may be coming from trusting

01:04:35

Wells Fargo Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting I am curious to see how it plays out, you know

01:04:41

The AG has gone kind of both ways on issues. They made the right call on the homosexuality issue a number of years ago

01:04:48

But of course they you know, there's been women preachers from the very beginning Yeah I'm just I'm very curious to see where it falls on this issue and and luckily the kind at the local church level

01:05:00

It's congregational and it's what's called a cooperative fellowship So without getting into all that local churches are shielded from that but the overall structure

01:05:11

I mean, it's if it's going down this road, it's not going to be good for sure So no, no, but it's happening in the

01:05:18

SPC as well. It's the exact same stuff. It's the exact Yeah, it seems like the AG is about one or two sessions behind the

01:05:24

SPC on every major issue I want to know what's gonna happen. Just look at the SPC and move forward four years and that's kind of where we go

01:05:32

I think you're right. I think you're right Well, I appreciate it brother Thanks to the phone call.

01:05:39

All right real quick sway We're gonna have to do this fast. We're already running late

01:05:45

Okay, how you doing? Yeah, I just wanted to run a couple questions by you because I hold to the monarchy monarchy and The monarchy in view and I do reject

01:05:58

Calvinism Because I hold to More of Martin Luther's view on the

01:06:05

Trinity. He rejected the Trinity said it was man -made and a conceived idea

01:06:11

Martin Luther Martin Luther King Martin Luther from Germany Martin Luther didn't reject the

01:06:17

Trinity. That's silly Martin Luther sermons volume 3 page 406

01:06:22

Martin Luther rejects the Trinity No, no, no that I don't know what your sources are but Martin Luther my sources

01:06:32

Martin Luther sermons volume 3 page 106 Well, okay. So let's go on to the next one.

01:06:38

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, I teach church history I'm a professor of church history.

01:06:45

I've taught it for 33 years and you are wrong

01:06:51

Luther did not reject the doctrine of the Trinity. Okay, so I'm not gonna let you just doctor on Not not even going there

01:07:03

That kind of stuff is just silly You don't just throw absurd stuff like that.

01:07:08

Can you imagine the Can you imagine the number of citations of Luther on that topic that would be out there if if that were the case

01:07:22

Inter internet resources are always dangerous. So anyways, sorry, we couldn't I guess

01:07:28

Tim's probably gone, huh? He's still there all right, since we

01:07:34

Let's um, I don't know Tim what what kidney can this be done briefly?

01:07:40

Or are you looking for information on a lot of stuff here? I Can make it quick.

01:07:46

Can you hear me? Yeah Okay, so My question is Joe was witnesses time about Colossian 1 16 how it says he created all other things

01:07:59

What I laughed because it's not all other things. Oh, yeah. Yeah I was just saying do you think in trying to prove

01:08:07

Jesus's eternity? I should point them the stuff like First Corinthians 8 6 where it says through him all other things were created in John 1 3

01:08:16

Where without him was not anything made that was made. Okay. Yeah, we can do this. Um, well first of all

01:08:23

Be aware of the fact that the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses at Colossians 1 16 has gone through various stages.

01:08:32

Are you familiar with the history of this? Yeah, I think so So, you know that initially it didn't they just simply said all other things

01:08:41

Christian scholars raised a huge hue and cry and so they put it in brackets

01:08:46

And it stayed in brackets for decades and then about Four or five years ago.

01:08:53

They removed the brackets and it just simply says all other things With our new

01:09:00

A Transcript search engine at ailmen .org.

01:09:06

You might be able to find Where I have addressed this particular topic in Colossians chapter 1

01:09:14

Verse 16, maybe just putting Colossians 1 16 in will pull up what you need but I have gone through how the subordinationist

01:09:25

Jehovah's Witness understanding of Colossians 1 Um Fundamentally capitulates to the people that Paul is warning the

01:09:38

Colossians about It actually turns his argument on its head

01:09:45

So that he's No longer arguing against the Gnostics but arguing with the

01:09:51

Gnostics and so it's an impossible way of understanding Colossians chapter 1 when you turn

01:09:57

Paul Around so he's no longer arguing against the Gnostics. He's now arguing for them so I go through that I've gone through that on the program before and and The nice thing now is

01:10:09

I may not have to go back over it again because it should it should come up that is a pretty exhaustive database of Everything we've done on this program back to 1998 and I know

01:10:22

I've covered it a number of times since then so yes and then 1st

01:10:28

Corinthians 8 That's a excellent, that's that's the shema of Deuteronomy 6 being expanded out in light of the incarnation of Christ and Yes, John 1 3

01:10:45

All of these but just keep in mind that Fundamentally with Jehovah's Witnesses What you've got to get to what you have to present to them eventually is

01:11:00

The evidence that Jesus is identified as Yahweh because the

01:11:06

Jehovah's Witness can always find a way to In essence excuse

01:11:16

The Passages that call Jesus God or creator or they can find a way to go yeah, but in a representative way or in a lesser way or something along those lines if Jesus is uniquely identified as Yahweh then as Jehovah then

01:11:35

The game's over. It's it's done all the rest that stuff doesn't make any difference anymore And I've talked to enough former

01:11:41

Jehovah's Witnesses That that was one of the things that was a regular statement And that was you know,

01:11:48

I could I could come up with ways of identifying Jesus as a God But if Jesus is

01:11:53

Yahweh if Jesus is Jehovah, then that's it. I'm I'm done I I have to change my my perspective and so that's you always need to end up getting there one way or the other

01:12:06

Because you know the ultimate demonstration of Jesus eternality, yes, he is he is said

01:12:13

To be the creator of all things all the rest of stuff but in Hebrews chapter 1 it is said that he does not change in comparison to creation and That's a quotation of Psalm 102 25 27, which is talking about Yahweh So that's the ultimate evidence that you could be able to present

01:12:34

That leaves most Jehovah's Witnesses with without much way of responding and So that's that's the direction to go

01:12:43

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you so much I really appreciate your ministry and you have helped me so much in so many ways.

01:12:50

So I appreciate Tim Thanks for getting touch today. All right. God bless. God bless. All right

01:12:57

There we go. Um Always interesting when we do open phones and we never get done on time

01:13:04

It's just just the way it is So thanks for listening the program today. We've got

01:13:10

Lots of stuff to be talking about on the next program. I am sure we only have Three weeks,

01:13:17

I think a Little over three weeks that we will be here before we're back in the

01:13:24

RV, please Pray that we will have the RV back Getting repairs for a little something rich doesn't seem overly panicked yet.

01:13:34

He's he's he's cool Got good P were people working on and they know when we need it need to have it done.

01:13:40

Hopefully but yeah, we Needed to do some roof work on and you got

01:13:49

There's a lot of things on RV that need to work the roof is definitely one of them I proved that on my first trip in an

01:13:55

RV When I destroyed the air conditioner two hours after getting the

01:14:00

RV anyway Long long past history that we don't need to go back into now.