Deliverance From Deliverance Ministries: A Biblical Critique

Justin Peters

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00:09

You are going to manifest right in front of your community, and it's going to come over you. And go to your church, and get your heart broken.

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Freedom? Freedom right now. Freedom right now. Let him go. Let him go. Come out in the name of Jesus.

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Come out. Come out. Come out in the name of Jesus. Right now. Right now. Let him go. Come out.

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Come out. Come out. You stop it right now, you quit it right now, in Jesus' name, stop it right now.

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In Jesus' name, please can we decongest the bond of wickedness and set the oppressed free in Jesus' mighty name.

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Shout yes, yes, now go there.

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Look at that, look at the power, look at the anointing. Scripture says that a

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Christian cannot be demonized, and if you admit that, that a demon cannot possess, control, or indwell a

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Christian, then the entire deliverance ministry immediately vanishes, all of the need for it vanishes.

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Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

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I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast. Deliverance ministries, they were really popular back in the 80s and 90s and then waned for a number of years, but here in the last few years have made a roaring comeback, and now we've got a whole new crop of younger, hipper demon slayers out there, and by the way, that's not a pejorative, they refer to themselves as demon slayers, so their moniker, not mine, but you've got guys like Greg Locke, you've got

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Alexander Pagani, you've got Mike Signorelli, Isaiah Saldivar, Catherine Crick.

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Now, Catherine Crick is one of the most obvious hucksters and charlatans out there.

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I mean, you would have to be blind not to see that she is a huckster, but Isaiah Saldivar interviewed her on his own channel not too long ago, so he apparently endorses her.

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Vlad Savchuk is another one. Vlad Savchuk, and when you go to his YouTube channel, he's got over 1 million,

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I think it's 1 .15 million subscribers to his YouTube channel. That is an enormous amount of subscribers.

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My channel, by comparison, has a little over 200 ,000, so you see the popularity of these demon slayers.

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By the way, I'm not jealous in the slightest because I don't envy them one day when they have to give an account for what they are doing to people, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

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In this program, I'm going to be interviewing Jim Osmond and Chris Rosebro, both of whom have done a lot of work in this subject.

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This video started off, I envisioned it as a fairly short video, but it's turned into a longer one as you can probably tell, and I will have general timestamps down below in the description to help you navigate a little bit.

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I do encourage you, if you care about this subject matter, watch the whole thing.

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We're going to cover a lot of ground. We're going to ask some pretty tough questions. Can a

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Christian be demon -possessed? They would say no. Can a Christian have demons residing inside of him or her?

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They say an emphatic yes. Is there a difference? We're going to talk about that.

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Can a Christian, can a believer, have demons inside of him or her? We're going to talk about the theology of deliverance ministries.

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We're going to talk about the practical implications of that and how it impacts our sanctification and our growth in Christ.

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We're going to talk about how this movement tragically leads people into the very spiritual bondage that it claims to extricate them from.

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It is truly tragic and ironically tragic.

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So we're going to talk about all of these things. We're going to look at some of the proof texts that they use, the verses that they go to that say, see, a

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Christian can have a demon inside of him. So we're going to talk about that. What about Peter?

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Get behind me, Satan. What about Ananias and Sapphira? When Peter asked him in Acts chapter 5, why has

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Satan caused you, filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? Well, Ananias and Sapphira, they were church members.

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Isn't that a good example? Well, we're going to talk about all of those. I think this will be a really helpful podcast for you, program.

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I think this will really be helpful. Yes, it's long. Please stick through it. Towards the end of this video,

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Jim Osmond is going to read from one of Alexander Pagani's books, Secrets to Deliverance.

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Dear friends, when you get to that section, let me just tell you, you will not believe what is written in his book.

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It is shocking. And if you have young children, you should probably put them to bed or otherwise have them doing something else.

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So fair warning. So that's coming up. You don't want to miss any of this. None of this, what we're about to talk about or show, none of it is to be salacious.

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I think you'll see this as we go through. Our heart is to help people. We want to help people.

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They are being led into spiritual bondage. And I'll say this later in the video, but I'll say it again now.

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I know that probably most, if not all of the demon slayers will watch this video. Pagani, Savchuk, Greg Locke, Signorelli, all of them.

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Malachi O 'Brien, Catherine Crick, who knows? I do not hate you at all.

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I love you, but I love you enough to tell you the truth. And so we're going to speak the truth right now because people are being held into bondage and untold reproach is being brought upon the name of Christ.

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So thank you, dear ones. I know it's kind of a long introduction, but I want to set this up. I have links down below in the description for the resources that will help you to understand this issue and why it's such a danger and to find true freedom in the gospel of Jesus Christ, not in deliverance ministries.

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We want to deliver you out of deliverance ministries.

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Here's my interview with Jim and Chris. All right,

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Chris Roseboro, Jim Osmond, brothers. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you.

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It's a pleasure to be on. My pleasure. Yeah. Well, guys, as you know, the deliverance ministries have really risen and taken center stage of sorts in the evangelical world, unfortunately, in the charismatic evangelical world in the last few years.

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And they've had some movies come out, come out in Jesus' name, which Jim and I both have seen.

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Chris, I think you've seen as well now, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which was just an absolute train wreck.

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Domino Revival, which is on my bucket. Well, not my bucket list, but I'm going to see that. I haven't seen it yet.

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You need to improve your bucket list if that. Right. No doubt.

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No doubt. Well, I wanted to have you guys on because each of you have been doing a lot of work in this area in different ways.

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Chris, of course, on your Fighting for the Faith YouTube channel, you've been dealing with Alexander Pagani, Isaiah Saldivar, and some of these other demon slayers.

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And they call themselves that, by the way, demon slayers. Yes, they do. For over a year, right?

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Yeah, no, in the lead up to the movie Come Out in Jesus' Name, which the lead up was several months long, they were doing weekly podcasts, and they had a demon slayers podcast that they were doing in the lead up.

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And so, yeah, it's been the better part of a year since they've really been calling themselves that. Although, I think when they went into production is kind of when they started really digging in their entrenchments regarding the language.

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And Jim, you've written a book entitled Truth or Territory? A Biblical Approach to Spiritual Warfare?

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Correct. I'm going to have links to both Chris's YouTube channel and Jim Osmond's website as well, where people can avail themselves to these resources.

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Truth or Territory? A Biblical Approach to Spiritual Warfare is excellent. I think, my humble opinion,

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I think it is the definitive work, at least up to this point, on what true spiritual warfare is.

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And it's not about what we're about to see. All right. So, all right, man,

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I sent y 'all some clips. So recently, the clip we're about to watch from Alexander Pagani made a lot of waves because he said some really bizarre things.

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One of which, not the least of which, is he said that, paraphrasing here, you can be a gay

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Christian, but you can't be gay and in the kingdom. Now, people rightly called that out.

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I mean, I don't even know what that means. But he did post an apology video in which he tried to clarify his remarks.

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And so we're going to listen to that. But that is kind of a, so basically what he says, as far as being a gay

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Christian, he said his thesis was, his apology, when he tried to explain what he meant was lots of people claim to be

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Christians and they are also gay. It's like, you know, everybody can claim to be a

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Christian, but they're not really a Christian. So he said, I wasn't saying that you can actually be a gay

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Christian. It's just lots of people claim to be Christians who are gay. So that, so I, in fact,

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I'll even put a link down in the description. So that was, that got all the buzz, but there's some other issues in this video clip that I think are equally troubling that he didn't really flesh out in his apology.

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So let's watch this and I'll get you brothers to comment.

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Here we go. Alexander Pagani. Point. This one is fast.

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Say with me, take your time, apostle. Why? Thank you.

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I think I will. Okay. I'm going to pause it here.

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Take it. So he calls himself an apostle is Alexander Pagani or anyone else for that matter, an apostle.

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Nope. No, I would note though, you have to, if you are pay attention to some of his other videos, he did an interview where somebody defended him and his apostolate by saying, well, he's not claiming that he's a special kind of apostle like Paul or Peter, but that he's an apostle because he's a church planter.

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And so he's, you know, he hides behind the word apostle and plays a little bit of word games with the definitions.

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And so, you know, we have to be careful because he does claim that he uses the term by way of missionary, not as the apostle

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Paul or Peter, at least that was the claim made for him by somebody else. That's a claim made for him.

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Now, is that a claim he makes for himself? He, he, he was on that interview.

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So while the person was saying those words, Pagani didn't interrupt him or, or, or contradict him.

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So we have to assume that he, he agrees with that. But so Pagani claims to be a possible by virtue of, of being a, a church planter, but that was the first I had ever heard of that.

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So, and that was a, that was a interview recently within the last, within the last three to four weeks.

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So. Yeah. I would note that the problem with, with that, with his use of that is that it's not at all clear in the minds of his audience for the people who watch his videos, that, that there is a distinction there.

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Most people do not make that distinction. You and I might make a distinction between small a apostle and capital a apostle, and he's hiding behind the term apostle.

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And I think he's using it differently depending on what context he's in and the way he wants to be regarded.

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He wants to be regarded as one who has authority, who hears from God, who, you know, so he kind of wants to be colored as a capital a apostle.

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But then if you ask him, look, are you claiming authority like the apostle Paul, he can just quickly switch to the other definition and say, and defer and say,

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Oh no, no, I'm not. I'm not that kind of an apostle, but that's not clear in the minds of the audience. If, if, if I refer to myself as son of God, and I allowed other people to refer to me as son of God, there's a sense in which

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I am a son of God. But if that distinction is not that I'm not claiming divinity by that title, if that distinction is not clear in the minds of everybody who hear that it's best for me, not to just refer to myself as son of God and allow other people to refer to me as son of God, because that communicates something in the minds of people that's not helpful.

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And it's not a distinction that people are making. Yep. I completely agree with you, Jim. He's, he's playing both sides of the fence.

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He's, he's, he's obfuscating, he's legitimately, you know, playing with the both definitions, depending on what the audience is and is not putting clarification forward to make sure that nobody would think more of him than they should.

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That's for sure. And if, and if he were not intentionally playing both sides and intentionally leading people to deception in that way, he could just clarify all of it and just never refer to himself as apostle and just refer to himself as a missionary, a church planter, or whatever.

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But he doesn't do that. He takes the title because he wants that title, but he doesn't want the responsibility or that it would go along with it.

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He should, I would never call myself an apostle. I would just call myself a pastor or a church planter or a missionary or a preacher or whatever, but he doesn't do that.

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He's intentionally, there's an intentional deception, an intentional, intentional equivocation that's going on there.

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And he's, he's willing to ride that wave. Yep. And I would note that he notably appeared at the beginning of 2023 on a video put out by Charisma News, giving a prophecy for the year 2023.

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And he gave a thus saith the Lord prophecy, claiming that, you know, that what God was telling him was coming up for the year 2023.

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So he does, does put forward the idea that he hears directly from God and therefore he has greater authority by virtue of the fact that he hears

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God's voice than the average Joe pastor. That's right. That's right.

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That's exactly right. A hundred percent. And, and also there are many people within the charismatic movement who actually do claim the mantle of capital a apostle office.

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So, um, yeah, but, uh, none of those guys around anymore. They've, they've all been in heaven for about 2000 years or so.

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All right. So let's continue. The next one is a matter of preference, but I've seen it in my life.

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Watch this and let me finish this thought out before you throw a shoe and some tomatoes and a stone.

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Okay. I'm going to pause it again because him saying that he said, let me get this out before he throw a shoe or a tomato or a stone.

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He knows, he knows that what he's about to say is controversial and is going to raise people's antenna.

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So this is not, this is not a throwaway. This is something he's given thought to. All right.

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God starts changing your mind from being

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Jesus centered to Holy spirit centered. Let me finish this thought.

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It's not called the gifts of Jesus. It's called the gifts of the, it's not called the fruit of Jesus.

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It's called the fruit of the, you're not even called the temple of Jesus.

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We are called the temple of the nowhere in the new

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Testament, the book of Acts, except one place talking to Paul, where you find

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Jesus talking every chapter, go look it up. It has this phrase and the

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Holy spirit said the spirit of God said, watch this. How many of you know, the prophet

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Agabus, you know, he prophesied two times in new Testament. You know how he prophesied.

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He didn't say, does say if the Lord go look it up. He said, does say if the spirit, as a matter of fact,

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Jesus doesn't even end the letter to the churches with his own name. He says, he that has ears to hear, let him hear what the spirit is saying.

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Now, why, why am I saying this? Because you could get away with a lot in Jesus, but you can't get away with that in the

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Holy ghost. Can I get your man?

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I'm an apostle. So I'm going to get you mad a little bit. Watch this. This is why modern evangelicalism loves to stay in Jesus.

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Cause Jesus won't condemn you. You could be gay and be a

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Christian, but you can't be gay and be in the kingdom. Ah, everybody say with me.

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You could blaspheme Jesus. He'll forgive you, but you can't blaspheme the

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Holy ghost. Lift your hands and shout 15 seconds for the

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Holy ghost in your life. Oh, a little of that goes a long way.

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Um, of course there's, I don't know, eyeballing it probably at least a thousand people in there and they're all hooping and hollering, got their hands raised, eating up every bit of it.

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Oh my goodness. All right. So. Well, they think that's biblical preaching. They think that that's, they think that God is teaching them something.

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Yeah. The issue is that, uh, Pagani has his own theology and that's the problem.

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And what he has done here is a classic Bible twisting technique of basically picking verses out of context and then stringing together as if somehow in the, out of context, they prove a point together.

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They don't. And as a result of it, he has some explaining to do because the same apostle

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Paul, which listed out the gifts of the spirit, who talks about the fruit of the spirit, he made something very clear in first Corinthians.

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And that is, is that first Corinthians chapter two, the apostle Paul says, I chose to know nothing among you except for Christ and him crucified.

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Um, and Paul, when he preached, he preached about Jesus and, and you'll note when you read the epistles in context, rather than just taking these verses out of context, the entire new

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Testament is about Christ. I would even argue the entire old Testament is about Christ and the work of the

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Holy spirit that Christ says that the Holy spirit is going to do. He's going to convict the world of sin and unbelief.

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And the Holy spirit is going to recall to the mind of the apostles, all the things that Jesus said and taught.

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And so, uh, one of my seminary profs described the, uh, the role of the Holy spirit is the

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Holy spirit's the PR guy for Jesus. And if you were to have a conversation with the Holy spirit, the

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Holy spirit would say, oh, that's great. But let me tell you about Jesus, uh, because the Holy spirit is pointing us to Christ.

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And yes, the Holy spirit does produce in us the fruit of repentance and the fruit of the spirit, but he doesn't do so apart from the words of Christ.

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We have to abide in his words and the words that he gave in that are recorded in the gospels, the words that are recorded by his apostles, the true ones.

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And it's through those means that Christ produces in us the fruit of the spirit.

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So he's, he's, he's basically ignoring all of these, the context of these verses, pulling them out of context and then saying, we need to, we need to get away from being

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Jesus focused. If you stop being Jesus focused, you cease to be a Christian. Yeah, I mean,

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Jim, what would you, I would just, I would just, yeah, I would just add to that, that there is, there's a distinction that he is making between the persons of the

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Trinity at the very beginning of that clip. He says, God changes your mind from being Jesus focused, the

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Holy spirit focused. So I'm assuming that by God there, he's referring to the father, that this is a function, that this is something the father does, changes your mind from being

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Jesus focused to Holy spirit focused. And his apology dealt with his statement that you can be a

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Christian and be a homosexual, but you can't be a Christian or be a homosexual and be in the kingdom as if you can be a

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Christian and not in the kingdom. His, his apology tried to navigate around that, but really the, the, the grievous part of that is this bifurcation that he's making between Jesus and the

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Holy spirit as if they are at odds with one another, as if it's almost a modalistic approach to the

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Trinity, where some modalists will say that God appeared as the father in the old Testament. He came in the new

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Testament as the son. And now in the church age, he's becoming the Holy spirit, or he is manifesting himself as a Holy spirit in that role.

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And it's almost like he just wants us in the church age to focus upon the Holy spirit. This is the kind of explanation of, of the work of the

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Trinity that I would expect from a modalist, not from somebody who is a Trinitarian as if the focus now in the new

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Testament was the person of Christ. But now we're to focus on the Holy spirit. And this is how God is manifesting himself.

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Whereas what Chris said is, is absolutely right. The role of the spirit is to point us to Jesus so that in Christ, we may behold the glory of the father, right?

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So that we've seen Christ, we've seen the father. So the spirit does this work in us to focus us on Christ so that we may behold the glory of the father and thus the glory of the triune

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God in the person of Christ. We are to see that there's a self -reflecting aspect of Trinitarian personhood and work that's going on there.

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And Pagani just sort of brushes past that. And I would just say one more thing, Alexander Pagani would avoid some of these pitfalls and some of these needless controversies and the necessity of making apology videos.

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If you would simply stick to studying the text and then standing up and giving an exposition of the text to his people, drop the handheld mic, get your

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Bible open in front of you, stop prancing about across the stage, like a WWF wrestler.

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And instead stand behind the pulpit in the Bible and exposit scripture and teach what the text says and stop relying upon whatever you think the spirit of God is bringing to your mind and your heart in the moment and going off the cuff like this where you say things that are not only dangerous, but openly heretical.

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And then you have to come back and make apologies later on when you realize that what you thought you're supposed to say in the moment wasn't in fact the work of the spirit of God and giving you new revelation, but was in fact lies straight from the pit of hell and blasphemous ones at that.

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Yeah. And I would add to it that when you look at his technique, it's very, so many evangelicals and Pentecostals are perfectly set up for this kind of nonsense because they don't actually hear preaching of God's Word in context, you know, actual exposition, actual exegesis.

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And as a result of it, I remember back when I was in Nazarene, you know, and under the influence of John Wesley's holiness and doctrines, right, that when we would attend a group

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Bible study, I kid you not, our small group leaders would read one or two verses out of context and then go around the room and ask this question, what does this verse mean to you?

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Well, that's a dangerous way of approaching the Scriptures because now all of a sudden the meaning of the

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Scripture is tied up in my subjective experiences and what I'm thinking or feeling in the moment.

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The reality is that God is the one who caused these words to be written and they mean what

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God intended them to mean. So, when somebody has developed their own personal theology, that is sinful.

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In fact, many people need to repent of their own sinful theologies and their own opinions. And so, when he talks about the fact that you can be a gay

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Christian and things like this, what he needs to do is stick to the biblical text.

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So, for instance, 1 Corinthians 6 couldn't be clearer. Here's what it says, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

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That's a question, and Paul's making a point by asking the question. He says, do not be deceived. And so, when somebody comes to you and they say something contrary to this, they're deceiving you because they themselves are deceived.

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Neither the sexually immoral, the idolaters, the adulterers, or men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

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Full stop. Then he says to the Christians at Corinth, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. And here you see the Spirit and Jesus working together in tandem to redeem us and wash us away and sanctify us from what we were.

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So, when somebody is, their identity is wrapped up in their sin, and their identity is wrapped up in a sinful identity, we have a clear text that says, dude, you're not going to inherit the kingdom of God, you need to repent.

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If your identity is in your sin and not in Christ and what God has done in you and through you, through the work of Jesus, by the power of the

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Spirit, then you're doomed. You have to repent and come back and confess that this is sinful and be forgiven and recognize that and have your identity in Jesus, not in your sin.

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That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And to be fair, we're not taking him out of context, we're not,

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I've already acknowledged he did an apology video, I'll link to it down below in the description so people can see it for themselves.

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We're not trying to be unfair at all here, but that is sloppy theology.

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And he also affirmed in his apology video, he said,

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I believe in the Trinity, I am a Trinitarian. So, he affirms that in his lingo, but yet what he taught in that clip is this anti -Trinitarian.

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Yeah, there's a lot of people who would claim to be Trinitarians who do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I think it's true that probably most

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Christians sitting in most evangelical churches would describe themselves as Trinitarians, but then you ask them, then define for me the doctrine of the

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Trinity, and they wouldn't be able to give you a coherent answer to that question. They can never, you and I could, we could define the doctrine of the

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Trinity, three persons eternally existing, co -substantial, co -equal with one another from all of eternity.

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These three persons are all one God, and each of them fully possesses the nature of the, fully possesses the divine nature.

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We could give a fleshed out understanding of the Trinity, but most people will give you a modalistic approach to the

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Trinity, or Sabellianism, or some other ancient heresy, because they've never thought, they've never been taught, and Pagani is in that.

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If he had a biblical doctrine of the Trinity, other than just saying, hey, I'm Trinitarian, I believe

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Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all God, if he had a biblical idea of the Trinity, he would never stumble into that type of nonsense.

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That's right. That's right. And two, Not even accidentally. Not even accidentally. Not even accidentally.

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Yeah. I would never say something like that on accident. No. None of the three of us would even accidentally say something like that.

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If I accidentally said something like that from the pulpit, I would accidentally be brought up on false doctrine charges.

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Right. Yeah. And then I would very emphatically give a full -throated apology.

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So now when he says, I want to return to what he says, it's the gifts of the

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Spirit, not the gifts of Jesus. So that goes exactly to what we were talking about, about him affirming the

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Trinity in lingo, but then denying it in the content of what he taught. I wonder what he does with Ephesians chapter four.

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Ephesians four, let's read it real quick, verses eight through 11. Therefore it says, when he ascended on high, he led a host of captives and he gave gifts to men.

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That's right. His expression, he ascended. What does it mean that he, except that he also descended in the lower parts of the earth, he who descended is himself also he who ascended far above all the heavens so that he might fill all things.

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And he himself, verse 11, and he himself gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ.

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The body of Christ, the body of the Holy spirit. I'm confused. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

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It's just boy, what a, what a Pandora's box of theological conundrums he has opened for us.

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So what you've said there, Justin, is that Jesus Christ himself is the one who gives these gifts to us.

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So yes, they're called the gifts of the Holy spirit because the gift of the spirit, the indwelling of the spirit manifests those special gifts in the individual believer.

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But those gifts were secured by Christ through his condescension here to earth, his suffering, his burials, resurrection, and then his ascension to the right hand of the father.

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So the work of Christ has secured those gifts. Those are his gifts to give. And he gives them in and through the person of the

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Holy spirit, but they are just as much the gifts of Christ to his church as they are the gifts of the Holy spirit.

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And this is one of those examples in scripture where something can be said of a work or a function of one of the persons of the

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Trinity that can also be affirmed of all of the other persons of the Trinity. Whereas we would never say that the father suffered and died on the cross or that the

33:59

Holy spirit suffered and died on the cross, or that either one of them rose from the dead. We can say that the father raised

34:06

Jesus from the dead, that Jesus raised himself from the dead, and the Holy spirit raised Christ from the dead. So there are actions or functions, economically speaking, of the

34:14

Trinity that can be affirmed of all three persons. But there are some functions of a

34:19

Trinitarian person that cannot be affirmed of all three persons, like the suffering or the passion of Christ or the second person.

34:27

So the giving of these gifts, they are the gifts of... I would even be willing to say that they are the gifts of the father to his church, through his son to his church.

34:37

These are also the gifts of Christ that he gives to his body. And they are the gifts of the Holy spirit, the manifestation of the spirit of God in the life of a believer.

34:45

So to try and divide the persons of the Trinity in terms of isolating, as Chris said earlier, these individual passages that describe the gifts as the gift of the spirit and isolating them from their context.

34:58

If he had just read about who gave the gifts, who secured the gifts, who is behind the giving of the gifts, it's

35:04

Christ himself, every bit as much as it is the Holy spirit. Amen. And I would add three texts from the gospel of John that support exactly what you said,

35:14

Jim. First of them is John 14, 26. Christ is speaking here.

35:19

He says, But the helper, the Holy spirit, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

35:28

Note, you had pointed out that you said you believe that behind Christ sending the

35:34

Holy spirit, you also have the father behind it, and that text proves it. And then in John 15, 26,

35:41

Christ says, When the helper comes whom I will send to you from the father, the spirit of truth who proceeds from the father, he will bear witness about me.

35:52

That's that Holy spirit being the PR guy about Jesus. And then John 16, 7,

35:58

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you.

36:04

But if I go, I will send him to you. And so you'll note, you cannot separate the work of the

36:10

Holy spirit from the fact that Christ, that Jesus and the father sent him.

36:15

This is why we, in one of the creeds, it says that the Holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son.

36:21

And who with the father and son together is worshipped and glorified. So that being the case here, you know, him somehow taking these passages out of context is doing violence to the fuller biblical truth that the father and the son are both responsible for sending the spirit.

36:39

And the spirit has particular functions that Christ says he's going to do, which is going to bring the things that he did to the remembrance, he's going to bear witness about Christ, and he's going to be our helper, our paraclete.

36:52

And boy, do we need that helper when it comes to the daily battle against our sinful flesh in putting that thing down.

36:59

No doubt. Jim, were you going to say something? Well, I was just going to say, Chris, would you ever let somebody with his theological depth of understanding come and preach in your pulpit?

37:10

I wouldn't even let them be a member of Kongsvig. I'll be blunt. If somebody came to me and they were this poorly instructed in the kind of theology, not only would they not be allowed to preach,

37:24

I would not sanction them to become a member of our church. It takes two years of going through catechesis and a full -on hour -and -a -half -long examination before I'll let somebody be considered for membership at our church.

37:39

Yeah. That was going to my point, is that Alexander Pagani, he should not only stop calling himself an apostle, but he should lay aside any public ministry that he has, and just the fact that he has demonstrated this low view of Scripture, low view of the

37:59

Trinity, and incomplete theological knowledge, he should stop becoming it, stop making himself a teacher of any, and sit down and study and get versed in systematic theology, and should do that for years.

38:12

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Before he ever steps behind another pulpit. That's right. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

38:22

James 3 .1, let not many of you desire to become teachers, my brethren, knowing that we will incur a stricter judgment.

38:28

Jim, you said one time, we were talking about Todd White, but you said Todd White preaching is like giving a two -year -old a hammer.

38:38

A lot of destruction is going to come when you do that. He's going to hurt other things, he's going to hurt himself.

38:44

I say this, I'm not making an evaluation one way or the other about their sincerity, and it's not just Pagani, it's

38:53

Isaiah Saldivar that we're about to look at, it's Greg Locke, he's got his own disqualification issues, he's kind of another ball of wax, but Signorelli, and Vlad Savchuk, and all these guys, and all the preachers in the

39:11

Word, Faith, AR. Y 'all have heard me say this before, I don't hate these men,

39:16

I love them enough to tell them the truth, and for their own benefit, for the state of their own soul, get out of ministry, get out.

39:30

You have no idea the condemnation that you're heaping upon yourself.

39:39

Circling back, Chris, to what you said as we started, I think it was you, that this is, this reflects the need for expository preaching.

39:48

I guess, I think you both said it, but you know, finding an expositor in the charismatic movement is like trying to find

39:59

Bigfoot. You know, there's lots of rumors these things exist, and lots of photos, but I've never actually seen proof.

40:07

Like legitimate resurrections and healings in the charismatic movement. Exactly, yeah.

40:13

Where are the charismatic expositors? Where are they? I honestly,

40:20

I mean, outside arguably, you know, men like Sam Storms and John Piper, who are, by the way, the fringe of the charismatic movement, they're the fringe, but outside of them, where are the charismatic expositors?

40:37

There are none. I mean, there's just no proof that these things exist, you know, outside of a handful of, you know, small handful of a few.

40:46

So, but this is not exposition. Todd White doesn't do exposition, Kenneth Copeland does,

40:52

Joyce Meyer doesn't, nevermind, she's a female, it's a whole other issue, but you know, Benny Hinn, Joseph Prince, Andrew Womack, Jesse Duplantis, Creflo Dollard, Rod Parsley, on and on.

41:05

None of them. The fundamental responsibility of a

41:11

Christian minister is to preach the word. Second Timothy chapter four, in season and out of season, to preach the word.

41:18

These men do not do that. They will stand behind a pulpit, they get people ginned up, they tell their stories, they quote a

41:23

Bible verse here and there, but that is not preaching the word. And most people in the charismatic movement could not identify an expository sermon if it fell on them.

41:32

They have no idea what it sounds like, they have no idea what it would look like, they have no, they cannot sense it at all because they've never been exposed to it.

41:39

They have been exposed to hyper -emotionalism and arguments that sound wise, they sound good, a lot of stories, a lot of reports of this and that, and the other thing, and they get exposed to the

41:51

Greg Locks and the Alexander Paganis who strut about the stage with their handheld mics, whipping people into emotional frenzies, but that is not biblical truth.

42:00

And you get people into emotional frenzies, but their action, their lives are not being impacted by the truth of scripture.

42:07

They are not biblically literate. I promise you that there is hardly, there's not 1 % of the people in that tent who could even pass a biblical smell test when it comes to biblical literacy, because that's not what they get, they are not being taught.

42:23

No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. I would note that I have the privilege of pastoring a notable number of people who come out of charismatic churches.

42:36

This is part of the fruit of the work that I've been doing at Fighting for the Faith for more than a decade and a half, and this is a common theme that I hear from people coming out of these types of churches, and they'll say things like this, at one service, in one sermon at Kongsvinger, I hear more

42:56

Bible than I heard in a year at the church that I came from.

43:02

And the thing is that the scriptures admonish pastors to devote themselves to the public reading, the public preaching of God's Word, and call me foolish, but I take it like literally, okay?

43:15

My job is to work my way through entire biblical texts, full narratives.

43:21

I'm not supposed to piecemeal a sermon together based upon my theology and then try to fit biblical puzzle pieces into supporting that.

43:30

That's a misuse of the text. And so, you know, I've been Pastor Kongsvinger for almost 10 years, and I legitimately think

43:39

I've preached through most, I mean, like, probably 80, 90 percent of the entire

43:44

New Testament, and I'm almost finished with the old. And what am

43:50

I going to do when I get to the end of it? I'm going to start over and do it all over again, you know, because it's a big book, and we might have forgotten some things.

43:57

Yeah, that's right. Jim, you've heard the same thing, right, as Pastor of Kootenai. You've been Pastor there for, what, 25 years, give or take a year?

44:05

27 years, yeah. And I hear the same thing from people that they've, we have a bunch of people who come to Kootenai because they have, they've never heard, they're longing for expository preaching, and we have a number of people who also come who have never heard expository preaching, and then they show up here, and they're exposed to it for the very first time, and they will have never heard this ever done with Scripture before.

44:29

And that's a scathing rebuke of basically the evangelicalism, that this is such a lost, call it a lost art, but it's just basic, it's fundamental

44:39

Christian ministry. That's what we're supposed to do. That's right, that's right. And once you hear true expositional preaching, and like the people, the thousand or whatever was there listening to Alexander Pagani and these others, you know, they've never heard expositional preaching, and they've all got their hands raised up, they're all eating.

45:00

I guarantee there's probably not one person in there that are left with any kind of a red flag at all.

45:07

But once you hear exposition, if you're saved, if you're regenerate, once you hear exposition, you can't go back to that kind of garbage.

45:20

No, you can't. No, because it doesn't, exposition feeds your soul. So these people walk out of the feeling like somebody who ate a bunch of rice cakes or gorged himself on styrofoam.

45:31

They feel full, but they're being malnourished, and they don't understand the difference. That's right. That's right.

45:38

All right, clip number two. Now we're going to move to Isaiah Saldivar. And Chris, I know you've done several videos on Saldivar.

45:46

So it's another, what you've called them, the wolf pack, right? Yeah, this is part of the wolf pack.

45:52

Yeah. Yeah, the deliverance wolf pack. So this is a clip from the

45:57

Dallas Mass Deliverance, and I believe, I don't have it in front of me, I think that was

46:03

November 22nd. So just a couple days before Thanksgiving. So we're going to listen to or watch a couple of clips here.

46:10

So in this clip, he's going to talk about how religious people in the Bible, religious people manifested demons even before the demonized people did.

46:21

Let's listen. So Jesus did something that made everybody mad. There was two groups that were mad when

46:27

Jesus came on the scene in Mark chapter one. Number one was your, not your pastor. What did I say? Your pastor? I mean, not your, well, maybe your pastor, religious people.

46:37

Religious people were the first ones that were mad and, oh, this is a revelation. I just got this right now. He just got revelation.

46:46

So this is not something he's studied. It's not something he's prepared for just on the spot, instant revelation.

46:52

Or should we be alarmed by that at any level? Yeah. Is God speaking to him authoritatively and infallibly?

47:01

Yeah. And you'll know that at this point, we got to put salad bar in a quarantine zone.

47:10

And I mean that because 1 John 4 commands us to not believe every spirit, but we have to test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

47:17

So as soon as somebody says, I'm getting revelation from God, we must quarantine them and say, well, listen, before we hear you out, we're going to have to test to see if this is really the

47:27

Holy Spirit speaking. But you'll note that in Charismatic and Pentecostal parlance, when somebody does that, like, oh, their ears are piqued because, oh, the

47:36

Holy Spirit's there. He's speaking through Isaiah right now. And boy, he's really punching those religious people in the nose, you know?

47:46

Yeah, that's right. All right. The religious people, it was not the drug addicts that first manifested a demonic spirit.

47:54

It was the religious people that had God on some Petri dish in a test tube that thought that they could examine

48:02

God in the natural. And Jesus comes on the scene, not in the natural dimension, but in the supernatural dimension.

48:11

I don't know if you know this, but our God is supernatural. Jesus came in the power of the

48:18

Holy Spirit. Acts chapter 1 verse 8 says, ye shall receive power when the

48:25

Holy Ghost comes upon you. There is a power transfer. Religious people manifesting, kind of like today, kind of like when you go back to your church and you tell your pastor, why don't we do the things that are in the

48:39

Bible? Why aren't we doing the things that Jesus said to do? Let me tell you why America hates deliverance, why pastors hate deliverance, because there is an anti -Christ spirit in the

48:48

American church. There is an anti -Christ spirit in America that hates God.

48:54

They hate marriage. They hate biblical manhood. They hate biblical womanhood.

48:59

They hate deliverance. They hate miracles. They hate the move of God. Okay.

49:08

So now I've watched that entire sermon. Tough to get through,

49:15

I've watched, but I've watched the whole thing. So he goes on to say, basically the religious people, well, the three of us would qualify because we're

49:23

Pharisees, we're just religious people, and one of the surest ways that you know you need deliverance from demons is if you are opposed to deliverance ministry.

49:36

In that same message, he legitimately said that if you are a pastor and you are opposing deliverance, he said the reason why is because you're committing adultery on your wife.

49:48

That's actually in the clip. And so I would note something here.

49:58

He engaged in a Bible twisting technique called eisegesis, which means the Holy Spirit did not give him that word.

50:04

The text in question is Mark chapter one, starting in verse 21. Here's what it says. They went into Capernaum, and immediately on the

50:11

Sabbath, Jesus entered the synagogue and was teaching. And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority and not as the scribes.

50:21

And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out, what have you to do with us,

50:28

Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are. You're the Holy One of God.

50:34

But Jesus rebuked him, saying, be silent and come out of him. And the unclean spirit convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice came out of him.

50:42

And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, what is this, a new teaching and with authority?

50:48

He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him. So you're going to note, he read in a whole dossier of this person's life, that they were a religious person, and the reason why they were demonized is because they thought that they can examine

51:02

God in a Petri dish. And none of that's actually said in the text. We just know that the person was attending the synagogue.

51:10

And it's important to note, put this on the timeline, this is before Christ sends the Holy Spirit. So you'll note that wherever God sets up a place where his word is being preached, like the parable of the weeds, the

51:25

Darnell, you know, the devil will put in weeds among the wheat.

51:30

That's just how the devil operates. So he is added to this biblical text and turned him into a religious person.

51:38

Just because he showed up at the synagogue doesn't mean he's a religious person. He could have been there for mischief. He could have been there because he was rubbernecking and wanted to find out who this

51:46

Jesus fellow is. We don't know that this person was religious at all. It's just that he was in the synagogue.

51:53

So Isaiah Saldivar here overplayed his hand.

51:59

And by claiming that this is a revelation from God, the Holy Spirit, of course, if we point this out, then we're opposing

52:05

God, aren't we? We don't need the text to give you those details when you're getting it straight from the

52:11

Holy Spirit in the moment. It's irrelevant what the text says. And notice the entire argument that he makes there is based upon what the

52:22

Spirit of God was revealing to him in the moment. And it wasn't based upon the text of Scripture. And if you don't have this, you don't have preaching in any charismatic sense, because it is not about what

52:33

Scripture says and being bound by the text. An expositor is bound by the text.

52:39

He doesn't go beyond what is written. He doesn't make assumptions about what is written. He doesn't get stuff off the cuff. He's bound, he is chained to the text, but not

52:47

Isaiah Saldivar. No, Saldivar is wandering all over the place and he gets this personally from the

52:54

Holy Spirit, in which case then the attention goes off of the text of Scripture to what he is saying in the moment that he's getting by way of direct download from the

53:03

Spirit of God. That's right. And ironically, when that happens, that is definitively not the work of the

53:11

Spirit of God when that happens. That's exactly right. And notice too, he says, you know, referring to us and he, in this sermon, he goes on to say cessationism will be dead in 10 years.

53:23

And so, we'll see. So, he says that religious people and cessationists, we hate miracles and we hate the move of God.

53:37

That's just false. Okay. So, I have seen God answer prayer miraculously and I have praised

53:48

Christ for doing so, but do I claim to have the gift of healing or anything like that?

53:54

Not even close. Okay. So, I always praise Christ for real miracles that he truly does.

54:02

And in my time in ministry, I've seen some pretty insanely miraculous answers to prayer.

54:09

That doesn't mean that my prayers are any better than any other pastor on planet Earth and I definitely don't have the gift of healing.

54:17

But so, that's just patently false. Notice also, he accused us of being opposed to biblical manlihood and also of somehow being, you know, pro -LGBTQXYZ element

54:31

OP. That's just nonsense too. And you're going to note what he's engaging in is basically trying to demonize his critics and basically whip people up into an emotional frenzy against people who are going to speak the truth and critique him.

54:49

If he could really defend himself biblically, then why doesn't he? Because we're offering biblical criticisms.

54:56

And I would note that he needs to consider how he came to be where he is because when you listen to his testimony, he went from being an atheist to basically being a teacher in Christ's church with no intermediate education at all.

55:15

Pete That's right. And so, part of the problem of Isaiah Saldivar is that you can hear it in the words that he says, how come, pastor, we don't do the same things that are in the

55:40

Bible? And a well -educated pastor who knows his Bible says, what are you talking about? We're doing exactly what the tell us to do.

55:47

The text tells us in the epistles that we are to preach the word, that we are to pray for the sick, that we are to go out and proclaim

55:56

Christ and him crucified for our sins and call people to repentance and faith in Jesus. We are not commanded to perform miracles.

56:04

And if God wanted me to perform miracles, he'd give me the power to do it. Mark That's right.

56:09

That's right. Jim, you have anything? But he makes the claim that we hate miracles. And if by miracles, you mean the fraudulent, phony stage show nonsense that goes on under that tent and under your ministry.

56:23

And you're right, I do hate the fake miracles. But I rejoice when I see God do something supernatural.

56:30

And cessationists do not believe that God has stopped working. We don't believe that miracles don't happen.

56:36

We don't believe that God is no longer doing any supernatural things. I think God does supernatural things all the time, all around me.

56:43

I just don't have the ability to do that at my will. And I don't have the miracle working power.

56:48

And by the way, neither do any of these people who are pretending to have that power. So we don't, that's not what cessationists believe.

56:56

We don't hate miraculous. We don't hate God's works. We don't hate miracles. We don't hate the work of the spirit of God.

57:03

None of that is true. So if you're going to make proclamations that cessationism is going to be dead in 10 minutes, or 10 years, you might as well figure out what cessationists actually believe.

57:12

You should spend some time figuring that out before you try and rail against us with these phony arguments. Pete And then

57:19

I did a video very recently, where Isaiah Saldivar and Signorelli were in the same room together.

57:27

And Signorelli let the cat out of the bag. And that is that people who have submitted themselves to Isaiah Saldivar's deliverance ministry are coming away saying, it didn't work.

57:38

Well, watch what they do. Jared And I've been rebuking people saying, yeah, that's not Isaiah's fault. You partially repented.

57:44

So a partial repentance is a partial breakthrough. I have all power to cast out any demon.

57:49

It's not the power of Christ isn't limited through me. It's your repentance was limited, you know? And so shock of shocks.

57:58

So Signorelli came to Isaiah Saldivar's rescue and rebuked people who were saying that saying, well,

58:05

I have all power to cast out demons. So if you got delivered by me or Isaiah Saldivar, and it didn't work, it's your fault because you only half repented.

58:16

And so the cat's out of the bag. They're miracles, their deliverance and stuff that they do.

58:22

It's all just a flim flam show. I've seen this show before and Todd Bentley did it better than Isaiah Saldivar does.

58:30

Yeah. Yeah. That's the truth. That's the truth. All right. A second clip from Isaiah Saldivar.

58:39

So yeah, it goes to what you were saying a second ago, Chris, that if you oppose deliverance ministries is because you don't want your own sin exposed.

58:48

So let's listen to this. It is an antichrist spirit. Remember the Bible says the antichrist is coming.

58:55

But when it says the antichrist is coming, it says his spirit is already here in the earth.

59:00

The spirit of the antichrist is at work in the sons of disobedience.

59:07

See, the spirit of the antichrist is antithetical to the teachings and demonstrations of Christ's ministry.

59:14

And so it's not that they hate Jesus. It's that they are anti the things that Jesus does.

59:20

And so now in the mega churches, we have pastors falling to sexual immorality.

59:26

And it's, we don't, I don't, I didn't see that coming. I saw that coming because I was at his conference and there was no deliverance.

59:35

I was at his revival and they never cast out demons. Let me tell you why a lot of these pastors fall. They believe the doctrine of demons, that Christians don't need deliverance.

59:45

So pastors are on the pulpit. Oh, y 'all ain't ready for this. He said, I can preach how I want to preach. He said, okay,

59:51

I want to, I want to pause there. So it is a doctrine of demons. If you believe that Christians don't need deliverance.

01:00:01

Go show me the biblical texts where the apostles cast demons out of Christians who were filled with the

01:00:06

Holy spirit. Just show me one. Just one. Right. Right.

01:00:12

And then I would note something. He's calling us, you know, that we're, we're, we're, we're applying the spirit of antichrist.

01:00:20

He would be wise to pay attention to second Thessalonians chapter two, chapter three, sorry, two, chapter two, verse nine.

01:00:27

Listen to what this says. The coming of the lawless one, that's the antichrist. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders.

01:00:38

I would note that his false signs and wonders deliverance show where he says the spirit of Jezebel, I cast you out.

01:00:45

I spirit of depression. I cast you out. That's a false sign. That's a false wonder. And I would note second

01:00:51

Thessalonians two makes it clear that he's the one preparing the way for the antichrist.

01:00:57

Not those who are saying that's a baloney. Yeah. Just give us one passage that says

01:01:04

Christians need to be delivered from the demonic because we have been, we have been delivered.

01:01:09

Deliverance is a past tense for Christians. You have been taken out of the kingdom of darkness and delivered into the kingdom of God's own son.

01:01:15

That's Colossians chapter one. You have been delivered through, uh, out of the slave market of sin.

01:01:21

That's what the word redemption means. You have been delivered from your sin and the power of sin.

01:01:26

That's Romans chapter six, seven and eight. We have, we have deliverance and deliverance is accomplished by the gospel, not by, uh,

01:01:34

Pagani and, and Saldivar and, and these other guys like Greg walk that, that they, they are not the agents of deliverance.

01:01:41

Deliverance is already taken place for the Christian. So now we are called commanded to just as we have received

01:01:47

Christ Jesus to walk in him. And there's no command in any of the New Testament epistles for a

01:01:53

Christian to seek deliverance or to be delivered from demonic spirits. That's exactly right.

01:01:58

And in fact, I would note that the apostle Paul had a perfect opportunity to talk about the need for ongoing deliverance for Christians after reading out his struggles with his own sin in Romans seven.

01:02:11

And instead he doesn't point us to deliverance. He points us in chapter eight to the, to the actual work of the

01:02:17

Holy spirit that gives us the strength to mortify our sinful flesh. And so when you compare that with like, you know, the last part of Galatians, how does a

01:02:27

Christian supposed to deal with sin? And you're going to know the sins of the flesh include a sorcery and adultery and theft and murder and all these other things.

01:02:37

And yeah, people who are Christians have done such things and will continue to do such things because we still have a sinful passions.

01:02:45

As a result of the fact we have our old sinful flesh still wrapped around our necks until we die.

01:02:50

But how are we to do that? How are we to put that down is by the power of the spirit. And so, you know, he's, he's giving the wrong medication for the actual sins that people are experiencing.

01:03:04

And in fact, it's like, you know, it's like one of those old guys from the 1800s who was going from town to town selling these elixirs, promised to heal people, you know, but, you know, this is a snake oil.

01:03:18

This is nonsense. You know, we've already been delivered from the dominion of darkness. Colossians 1 .13

01:03:23

makes that clear. Exactly. Yeah, Chris, to your point, when Paul's talking about his struggles in Romans 7, he says,

01:03:30

I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things that I want to do. And so there is within him this conflict.

01:03:36

At the end of that chapter, Paul doesn't say, who will deliver me from these demons? At the end of that, Paul says, who will deliver me from this body of death?

01:03:43

And so what is required for those sinful proclivities is not exorcism.

01:03:49

It's not deliverance. It's not some second encounter with the Holy Spirit in one of these tent meetings.

01:03:54

What is necessary is the mortification of the flesh and the yielding of our members as instruments of righteousness, as slaves to righteousness instead of slaves to sin.

01:04:04

We have to put off and put on. That's what the apostle Paul prescribes for us, not deliverance.

01:04:09

Amen. Nowhere in all of his pastoral epistles, nowhere, not a single place in all of his pastoral epistles is there one syllable of anything of instructions of delivering

01:04:24

Christians from demonic oppression. You got to get them demons out of those believers.

01:04:31

Not one syllable, not the faintest hint of it anywhere. That's right.

01:04:37

Yeah. And I would note something here. The other part of this is that history is against him.

01:04:42

Because this idea, this practice of deliverance is brand new. It's only been around for a few decades.

01:04:50

And it had its origin in that book, The Pigs in the Parlor. When I was in the Latter Rain movement, the people that were over me in that movement practically was a cult.

01:05:01

They were the big purveyors of that book, The Pigs in the Parlor. And I can legitimately say that's the real source.

01:05:09

And nobody before that book was really practicing deliverance at all. So, Isaiah Saldivar showing up 2 ,000 years after the church has been established with a practice that just came on the scene saying that we're engaging in doctrines of demons by opposing this unbiblical practice.

01:05:28

He needs to get in the back of the bus and shut up because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

01:05:34

And history has proven us right and him basically to be a wackerdoodle. And Chris, this whole deliverance ministry has waxed and waned over the years.

01:05:44

You're old enough, I can tell by the gray in your beard, to probably remember the 80s and the early 90s with guys like Mike Warnke and Bob Larson and Rebecca Brown and that whole cast of characters with all of their ilk.

01:05:57

That was one whole wave of it. And then it seemed to have died down after the turn of the 2000 and until today.

01:06:05

And now it's a big thing again. Now we've got the revivals and the tent meetings fired back up as if people today, and most of them do, have such a short memory that they can't remember that all this stuff was going on back then as well.

01:06:18

Yeah. And here's the sad part about it is that having been around the block a few times, I remember when

01:06:24

Mike Warnke was exposed for not being a witness and telling the lies. And I remember when

01:06:31

Bob Larson used to not wear a Roman Catholic garb. Just saying.

01:06:40

And I remember all of that when it was like all the buzz in the church.

01:06:45

And the problem is that this is kind of like watching a bunch of people who have not been properly exposed to sound doctrine.

01:06:56

They haven't been inoculated against the bad theology. And as a result, it's like watching a disease come back and come back again.

01:07:03

Here's what's going to happen is that all of these people who have been whipped up into this emotional frenzy, who've gone to these deliverance people to say,

01:07:11

I got delivered from the demon of heroin, or I got the demon of meth, or whatever.

01:07:17

They're going to go back, and they're going to go back to their meth, they're going to go back to their heroin, and their lives are going to be worse.

01:07:24

And as a result of it, rather than being delivered, they're going to be even in more bondage.

01:07:31

Rather than being delivered, they're going to be in more bondage because they're going to basically come to the conclusion, Christianity isn't true.

01:07:38

These guys are nothing but scammers. And as a result of it, they're going to flee the church, and they're going to go farther into the darkness, but they haven't actually been exposed to the truth.

01:07:49

So, this leaves people in more bondage rather than delivering them. And Chris, that is the great irony in all of this discussion.

01:07:58

These deliverance ministries that ostensibly exist to extricate demons from people and deliver people from demon oppression.

01:08:07

We'll talk about that in a little bit. Ironically, they are delivering people straight into the very bondage from which they claim to free them.

01:08:21

So, if you've got, how do you know? We've seen this come out in Jesus' name.

01:08:27

How do you know if you've got a demon? Oh, well, if you've got a short temper, you've got a demon.

01:08:33

If you drink, you've got a demon. If you have lustful thoughts, you've got a demon.

01:08:40

And one of the sure signs you've got a demon is if you oppose deliverance ministries, you definitely have a demon then. So, that latter one aside for a second.

01:08:51

So, if you've got anger issues, lustful issues, if you're imbibing and getting drunk, you've got demons and all this.

01:09:01

You've got generational curses. The reason you're an alcoholic is your great -great -great -great grandfather was an alcoholic and the demon of alcohol has been passed through your bloodline.

01:09:12

They are short -circuiting what the Bible prescribes for true deliverance.

01:09:20

True deliverance comes with regeneration. As we've talked about Colossians 1, 12, and 13, the

01:09:26

Christians have been delivered from the authority of darkness, transferred to the kingdom of his son.

01:09:34

And from that point forward, our progressive sanctification growth and holiness includes putting to death the deeds of the body per Romans 8, 13, going with the flesh, not with demons.

01:09:52

And so, they're short -circuiting what the Bible prescribes for holiness. It's just so ironic that they are delivering people into bondage.

01:10:03

They're not delivering them from anything other than the gospel. Pete Yeah, and we have a biblical text that bears this out.

01:10:13

In Galatians chapter 5, starting at verse 19, it says, "...the works of the flesh are evident."

01:10:20

Here they are. You ready? Sexual immorality. That's going to include lustful thoughts, okay?

01:10:26

That's not demonic. That's a work of the flesh. Impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

01:10:43

Those are the works of the flesh, not of demons. If you were to take all the demons of hell and lock them back up in hell, and there were no demons roaming the earth, we would all still, as Christians, be struggling and fighting against our sinful flesh and its sinful desires and passions and struggling with that list of sins.

01:11:05

And the solution isn't to cast out a demon. The solution is to confess your sin and cry out to God, the

01:11:11

Holy Spirit, to please help. There's a book that I would really recommend at this point.

01:11:17

I like something that's from long ago. C .S. Lewis made a point in one of his essays about the importance of reading old books.

01:11:27

And Augustine, the church father, St. Augustine, he had a book that he called

01:11:33

On the Letter in the Spirit, and he talks about how Christian sanctification works.

01:11:39

And he notes that God chooses to sanctify us through the work of the

01:11:44

Holy Spirit so that we are never conceited. And so, he basically teaches this kind of concept, according to how the

01:11:52

Word says we are to call to the Holy Spirit to give us help. If we were to somehow pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and somehow sanctify ourselves by our efforts, we would become repugnant in the eyes of God because we would be really conceited about it.

01:12:07

But we must humbly say something like this, Lord God, we know that your Word says that you want us to do these things, and you don't want us to do these things.

01:12:18

But we don't have the power in and of ourselves to obey your holy commands.

01:12:24

So, please give us the strength today to obey your commands so that we may be pleasing in your sight.

01:12:31

This is kind of a prayer that Augustine puts forward. And the idea then is he goes on to say, and when

01:12:37

God answers that prayer, because he does, you won't have anything to brag about because he's the one who gave you the strength to mortify your flesh that day.

01:12:45

But you'll note in the ancient church understood, sanctification is done by the power of the

01:12:52

Holy Spirit. So, here all these guys are talking about the importance of the Holy Spirit while completely evacuating the

01:12:59

Holy Spirit of the very thing that he's supposed to be doing in the life of a Christian. That's right. That's right.

01:13:06

Amen. I know it's so ironic that the very movement that claims to have such a high view,

01:13:11

I've said this many times, the very movement that claims to have such a high view of the Holy Spirit, and they would look at men like us and women like us, not women, but women who share our theology, but people like us, they would look at us and say, oh, you don't believe in the

01:13:27

Holy Spirit. You don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. Cessationists don't believe in the power of the

01:13:33

Holy Spirit. On the contrary, as a cessationist, I see no ground in my pneumatology to these folks.

01:13:42

My view of the Holy Spirit is far too high. I have too high a view of the

01:13:47

Holy Spirit of God to believe that someone can be indwelt by him and teach the heresies that these word -faith

01:13:56

N .E .R. people teach, give the false prophecies, they give thousands of them, put words in God's mouth he did not say, manufacture fake signs and wonders, deceive people, exploit the poor and the sick and the desperate and the widows, and bring untold reproach upon the name of Christ.

01:14:13

I don't believe the Holy Spirit would allow that. If he's strong enough to save us, he's strong enough to deliver us out of deception.

01:14:21

So it is not we who have a low view of the Holy Spirit of God. It's they who have a low view of God's Holy Spirit.

01:14:29

And other than that, I have no strong feelings on that. Yeah, they think the Holy Spirit is empowering them to cast out the spirit of this, that, and the other thing.

01:14:38

And they're ignoring the fact that the Holy Spirit gives us the power daily to mortify our sinful flesh, which is how the fruit of the

01:14:46

Spirit is born in us. And so they think that the Holy Spirit is into these signs and wonders, extravaganza, as you said,

01:14:55

Jim, wrestling shows, these WWF, WWE wrestling shows, it's fake.

01:15:04

But the Holy Spirit, I couldn't go a day without the work of the Holy Spirit. Without the

01:15:09

Holy Spirit empowering me to go to war with my sinful flesh, holy smokes,

01:15:15

I'd end up back into the gutter in the dominion of darkness. That's right.

01:15:21

And while telling everybody that they believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, they don't believe the Spirit of God is powerful enough that once he takes up residence, the demons can't come in and live with him.

01:15:29

And the Spirit of God can preserve you and protect you and keep you and purge you of your sin and give you power to walk in holiness without deliverance ministry.

01:15:36

He's not powerful enough to indwell the Christian and to sanctify the Christian without their help.

01:15:43

Right. Riddle me this, Batman. We've talked about this before. I know

01:15:48

Jim and I have, I'm not sure if Chris, so riddle me this Batman. If a demon is strong enough to take up residence inside of a believer and that demon can control his thoughts, control his actions, even take over his voice, control his voice, why is it that all these people, the first place they apparently want to go is to a mass deliverance to have these demons expelled from them?

01:16:21

How does that work? If you've got a whole bunch of demons running around inside of you, why is it that all these people want to go to have the demons delivered if they're that powerful?

01:16:35

In the New Testament, no person who was delivered, nobody ever sought out, no demon possessed person ever sought out exorcism or deliverance.

01:16:44

Jesus would come and he would encounter them. He would go to where these people were at. Nobody came to him seeking deliverance.

01:16:50

People came to Jesus seeking deliverance for other people, right? My son is possessed of an evil spirit and the spirit tries to throw him into the fire, into the water and destroy him, etc.

01:16:59

That father went and pleaded with Christ for deliverance for his son, on behalf of his son, but the son didn't come.

01:17:05

People did not come seeking deliverance from Jesus or the apostles. That's right.

01:17:12

I mean, even Hollywood understands this. You know, when a demon possessed person in a movie is being brought to a church, that person won't go.

01:17:21

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Even Hollywood understands this. And let me come back to just how weak their

01:17:27

Holy Spirit is. I use his voice when I describe the Pentecostal, charismatic

01:17:33

Holy Spirit. He's completely weak and he's completely incapable of, like, help.

01:17:39

You know, he can't even find his way out of a paper bag. And so there's the Holy Spirit indwelling you and all of a sudden this demon shows up and the

01:17:46

Holy Spirit goes, oh no, hi, I didn't know I was going to have a roommate.

01:17:54

I'm a little uncomfortable with this, you know, but I don't have the power to get rid of you.

01:18:01

So I'll just sit here and just, can somebody give me a phone?

01:18:06

I want to scroll Instagram. I'm just, I don't want to make an eye contact here, but I don't have the power to keep this guy out.

01:18:13

And so, yeah, what a weak Holy Spirit, right? No doubt. That's a good way to put that.

01:18:19

I didn't know I was going to have a roommate. Now, Jim, you say that no one sought out deliverance and I agree with that.

01:18:27

Now, one of the things I've heard them say, and I'll just get you to react to this because it's very weak and it should be obvious to anyone reading it.

01:18:34

They would go to Mark chapter five. Then they came to the other side of the sea, into the region of the

01:18:40

Gerizim. And when he got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met him.

01:18:48

So that's what they say in response and rebuttal to the point you just made.

01:18:55

Yeah. But obviously Jesus went to the area of the Gadarenes and he was there. He's the one who took that initiative.

01:19:01

He went and sought that person out for that purpose. So yeah, that person came out of the cave and he lived in caves, came out of the cave and met

01:19:09

Jesus. But that doesn't mean that he went from Gadarene over to Capernaum or Magdala to seek out deliverance and went to a synagogue service looking for Jesus because he was demon possessed.

01:19:23

That's right. So my point still stands. So yeah, this person met Jesus. He came out of the cave and there he met

01:19:28

Jesus. That's true. But he was not seeking deliverance. He was not seeking deliverance. That's right.

01:19:34

Okay. Well, let's go to our next clip. In fact, I think just in our conversation, well, let me play the rest of it.

01:19:42

Here we go. He said, I have till six o 'clock, so I'm going to preach it how I feel it. Pastors are standing up behind the pulpit, preaching against guys like us who are seeing thousands get set free.

01:19:54

And they're saying, demon deliverance isn't for Christians and Christians have no right to be casting out demons.

01:20:00

Meanwhile, they have their hand in someone else's wife's pants on Saturday. They're meeting up at the park, dating other women behind their wife's back.

01:20:08

And then we're like, wow, we didn't see it coming. I saw the smoke from a mile away.

01:20:14

When you don't deal with darkness, you allow it to remain rent free.

01:20:23

Let me tell you why pastors aren't doing deliverance. I won't preach about it because they don't want to expose their own demons.

01:20:31

All right. That'll bless you. So he's demonizing people who have sound biblical exegesis.

01:20:39

There's the irony of it. Jim, who's your mistress? How about you,

01:20:45

Justin? I'd like to meet her. I have no idea who she is. Yeah. Nor do

01:20:51

I. Nor do I. I've never met her. Yeah. Nope. So you'll know, this is absolute slander.

01:20:59

Yes, it is. That's exactly—it's slander meant to demonize. And I would note something here.

01:21:05

And that is that slander is the voice of the devil. Christ makes it clear that the devil's language is lies.

01:21:12

He's speaking his native language when he's lying. And Satan is the accuser of the saints.

01:21:18

And so if Isaiah Saldivar wants to accuse me of adultery, then bring the charge.

01:21:23

Let me know who the woman is. Bring it to my ecclesiastical authorities. And if you don't have the evidence to back that up, then you need to shut up because you're lying and you're speaking the devil's lies.

01:21:34

Bring the receipts. That's right. Yep. That is slander. That slander is a sin listed in Romans 1 that marks the lives of unbelievers.

01:21:45

I would encourage him and the others to give some serious pause to what they're saying.

01:21:53

And what he is doing there is he's simply coloring everybody who disagrees with him with one brush.

01:21:59

And that accusation is intended to put into the minds of his hearers this poisonous idea that if I run across somebody who tells me that this is not biblical, that obviously it's only because this person is having an affair.

01:22:10

This person can't be trusted. This person is not a true Christian. And so it just inoculates people against any kind of clear thinking or biblical study.

01:22:18

So if they come across this video or something that Chris has put out or something I've written or you've done, Justin, it's just intended to automatically paint anybody who opposes him, questions him, criticizes him, tries to correct him as being an enemy, a tool of the devil, an adulterer, and somebody that can't be trusted before the argument can even be heard.

01:22:38

And you know what's ironic is I heard Pagani recently.

01:22:44

In fact, I think it was that apology video. He said that he had to, I'm paraphrasing here, link down below so people can watch it.

01:22:51

But he said that he had to put aside his own convictions about some of the lifestyles of the very men with whom he was participating in this film come out in Jesus name because he knew some sin going on in their lives, but he was being encouraged to be a part of this.

01:23:12

And so he kind of like held his nose a little bit and went ahead and did it. Yeah. How does that work?

01:23:20

And hang on. It'll come out in time. Yeah. Time will tell.

01:23:27

Yeah. Oh, and I know what I was gonna say. So another ironic point is in the charismatic movement, as you both well know, when one of their leaders, when one of their rock stars gets caught in whatever sin, in adultery, in alcoholism, drowning puppies, it doesn't matter what it is.

01:23:47

It doesn't matter how bad it is. When they're caught in it and they're exposed, they may get out of the saddle for a few months, sometimes just a few weeks, but they're right back in, in no time.

01:24:03

They're right back in the saddle. They've been restored. Todd Bentley, one of them, they've been restored.

01:24:10

They're back in the circuit. You know, they're in our circles, in our -

01:24:16

Forever disgraced. What's that, Jim? Forever disgraced. Forever disgraced.

01:24:21

You are out of the pulpit. Doesn't mean you can't be forgiven judicially, but you're out of the, you're done.

01:24:29

You're out of the pulpit. You will, from this point forward, be working a secular job somewhere.

01:24:36

And rightfully so. And rightfully so. And the tragic bit here is that these people are being cut off from the sound voices who are legitimately pointing them to the real

01:24:50

Jesus who can really deliver them, and to the real Holy Spirit that can empower them to mortify their sinful flesh.

01:24:57

And as a result of it, they are giving their money, they are giving their commitment and time and trusting that this person really is the real thing.

01:25:07

But we've seen how these things end, and they never end well. And they usually end in all kinds of scandal.

01:25:16

And this is just absolutely tragic, and this shouldn't surprise us, because deliverance isn't the means by which we mortify our sinful flesh.

01:25:25

As a result of it, people who are relying on this, they're not really being sanctified.

01:25:32

They may be going the opposite way. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, yeah, how ironic for him to accuse us of coddling some secret sin, adultery, even, when it's their movement that is famous for adulterers right back in the pulpit.

01:25:54

There's a famous counterpoint to things like this, and that is that I've heard some of the generations say, let me pop some popcorn, because clearly you're projecting.

01:26:07

Yep. All right. So, let's move now to Pagani, Alexander Pagani.

01:26:14

And this is also at the Dallas Mass Deliverance, dealing with the authority of Christ watching.

01:26:24

Lose your hope. Everybody, with your hands raised, you're going to repeat this prayer after me. We're going to renounce.

01:26:33

Apostle David, we'll continue with, as the Holy Spirit guides, let's do an initial renouncing, and let's get the courtroom of heaven to begin to move legally.

01:26:43

At the end of this prayer, I'm going to say, now go there. You're just going to go there as the Holy Spirit gives it to you, all right?

01:26:49

With your hands raised, repeat after me and say it nice and loud like you mean it, so I don't have to repeat myself. Say, Heavenly Father, I'm in your house,

01:26:57

I'm in this place, and I stand in need of deliverance.

01:27:03

Holy Spirit, I give you authority. Go into my mind, go into my soul, go into my body, find every demon, and break every curse.

01:27:15

Lord Jesus, you're my deliverer. I give you authority to break the curse over my life.

01:27:25

I come against the generational curse of iniquity and witchcraft and the occult.

01:27:34

I command you, in the name of Jesus, I order you, Satan and every demon in my mind, in my body, in my body, in my soul, in my soul,

01:27:46

I order you, go, go, go, go, go, now, in Jesus' name.

01:27:53

Now, go there. Look at that. Look at the power. Look at that. All righty then.

01:28:00

So, um, this is, I'm sorry to put you through this.

01:28:07

I know, I know. You owe me dinner at Red Lobster sometime when we get together because this is horrible.

01:28:13

Yeah, tell me about it. Yeah. Walk a mile in my shoes, Hoss. Yeah, well, I can't. I couldn't do what you do.

01:28:21

So, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus Christ. I had no idea that it was Alexander Pagani that was given that authority.

01:28:28

He's given authority to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus, and I'm sure that they are both so thankful that he has bestowed upon them that commission.

01:28:36

Yes. Yeah. And yet, you watch his, you watch his, uh, apology video. It is no pride here, no arrogance here, no ego here.

01:28:45

Yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. This reeks of, uh, of Pelagianism, or at least semi -Pelagianism.

01:28:55

Both of them are heresies. We're not saved by any decision that we make or us giving authority to Jesus to do anything, and what's with this courtroom's a heaven nonsense?

01:29:07

Christ is the judge, and he's the one who silenced the devil by his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

01:29:14

And as a result of it, the devil has no place to convict us of anything.

01:29:20

So, as Christians, you'll note that this is nowhere given to us as an example. We need to do these kinds of things, give authority to Jesus to break nonsense.

01:29:29

Instead, the Scripture says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins,

01:29:36

God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I don't see people confessing their sins there and crying out to Jesus to forgive them.

01:29:46

This is, again, complete quackery, you know, with people who are dealing with real sins, and the way to do that is to cry out to Christ and confess,

01:29:57

I've done these evil things, please have mercy on me. We've gone from the days when

01:30:03

Wesley's bad theology would have people sitting on the anxious bench and then coming up for altar calls to confess their sins to be born again, again, again.

01:30:12

But now we've skipped that altogether. We've moved beyond that to where now

01:30:18

I'm just saying these declarations that I'm giving authority to Jesus to fix things, is that like signing a waiver when

01:30:26

I take my truck into the Ford dealership? You know, I give you permission to work on my truck and to fix it?

01:30:32

I mean, what is this? Exactly. Word of faith theology. It's word of faith theology.

01:30:38

Bingo. It's legal declarations, it's giving God permission in the earthly realm because He's locked out of this, and so we declare and we decree and we proclaim, and then

01:30:49

God reacts to those things. He needs our permission, He has to do this legally. That is classic word faith theology,

01:30:58

Justin, you know that as well as anybody. Oh yeah, that's open theism right there. Oh, it is.

01:31:03

I mean, Chris Vallotton at Bethel Church openly teaches open theism.

01:31:10

I've got recent clips of him that I showed just a couple months ago, but anyway, this is a common refrain in the word faith

01:31:19

NAR movement. It's kind of like, brothers, it's kind of like what we were talking about with the

01:31:26

Trinity when Pagani said, I affirm the Trinity, but what he taught was anti -Trinitarian. So they would say, oh, we affirm that God is sovereign, but He just has to have our permission to do anything.

01:31:38

Right? Yeah. So then He's not sovereign. Yeah. I need you to sign this waiver and give me permission to do some things in your life, please.

01:31:50

Is there? Yeah. You with us, Jim? Jim froze up. Jim froze up.

01:32:00

Demon of technology. Oh, no. We need to decree and declare things over the

01:32:08

Zoom. Over the Zoom. Did you get the technological demon extricated from your system?

01:32:16

I did. Yeah. Holy water and all kinds of other good stuff. Yeah. Right. Close one.

01:32:24

So yeah. So imagine the hubris to say,

01:32:30

Jesus, I give you authority. I, ah, that would, just the thought of that.

01:32:41

I mean, this goes back to why I say they have a low view of the Holy Spirit. If I ever uttered that sentence, even if I just got tongue -tied and somehow uttered those words,

01:32:51

I would come up with such heavy convictions so immediately. Yeah. Immediately.

01:32:57

Immediately correct. I recommend somebody taking a look carefully at the grammar of Ephesians chapter 2, specifically verses 1 through 10, but focusing in on the middle part.

01:33:12

So listen to how this lays out and see if this fits with their open theism and this idea that we have to give

01:33:19

God permission to do stuff. I just realized that God actually needs permission to do that because He relegates

01:33:28

His all -knowingness to my will when it comes to my life. And here's what

01:33:33

Paul says in Ephesians 2 .1, you were dead. You were a necros, you were absolutely dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sense of disobedience, among whom we were all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and we were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

01:33:57

So you'll note that Ephesians 2, 1 through 3 makes it clear we were all under the dominion of darkness and gives us specific ways in which that manifests, but then you get to the next word in the

01:34:09

English and the word is but. And so here's the fun thing here. What follows is but God, and God here, theos, is in the nominative, which means it has to be the subject of the verbs that follow.

01:34:22

But God, being rich in mercy because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, listen to this next part,

01:34:34

He, God, made us alive together with Christ. And that verb, souzoi poieo, okay, it's a little bit of a mouthful, but it literally means

01:34:45

He made us alive. God made us alive. He didn't ask for us to give

01:34:50

Him permission to make us alive. When we were dead in trespasses and sins, God made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved.

01:34:59

And He did more than that, sunegero, He raised us with Christ, and then

01:35:06

He seated us with Christ. And so those verbs, God's doing all the doing, and He didn't ask you for any permission to do any of those things.

01:35:17

That's exactly right. That is exactly right. All authority has been given to Christ.

01:35:23

He has all authority. And God, as I've said this before, God is not losing a great deal of anthropomorphic sleep over whether or not

01:35:30

He has our permission to do anything. He is sovereign.

01:35:35

A God that needs our permission isn't the God of the scriptures, it's a different deity. That's right. Amen. Amen.

01:35:42

Okay, so I want to play this clip. It's kind of a group of different men, only one of whom

01:35:51

I'm familiar with. Well, two, I guess. The Gospel Truth, he's a good guy. But Alexander Pagani, he's talking.

01:36:00

And even Alexander Pagani himself seems to be a bit unclear on the issue of whether or not a

01:36:08

Christian can be demon possessed slash demonized. What does that even mean? So let's listen to this.

01:36:14

All right, sounds good. But so, Marla, I would say, just to clarify that, that I haven't been on the mission field frequently, but I have been international, and I've been primarily dealing with demonized

01:36:31

Christians, as opposed to... Evangelizing the mission field in the sense of where I'm seeing a lot of demonic possession.

01:36:39

So what does that look like, though? A demonized Christian? I get in the sense of it,

01:36:44

I grew up Pentecostal too, so I agree with it. I believe in deliverance, I understand it. But just because you're super experienced, you're the expert here.

01:36:52

A demonized Christian does what looks like what? Is it something where they know they're demonized?

01:36:59

Is it like the Exorcist movies? No, that would be the possession one. That's not it. No, definitely not the

01:37:04

Exorcist. Yeah, what is it, Pastor Alex? Okay, so let me just kind of first say this.

01:37:11

Right now, personally, I'm having an issue with the word demonized, even though the

01:37:19

Bible actually uses it. I don't think it's necessarily the best word we should use, because in its interpretation, not only does it mean to be under the influence, but one of its definitions is also possessed.

01:37:33

So when we say Christians are demonized, rightly so, yes, it is a slippery slope.

01:37:39

They go say, oh, if you say a Christian can be demon possessed, and we're like, that's not what we're saying. So it alludes to both definitions.

01:37:45

So I'm struggling on whether I should even keep using that word and just say a

01:37:50

Christian opened a door for a demon. Only because we've been saying till we're blue in the face that we're not saying a

01:37:56

Christian can be demon possessed. But then when they look at the meaning demonized, one of its definitions is to be owned by the devil.

01:38:06

So I'm like, oh, man. So in regards to, it's word semantics.

01:38:13

Again, it's a war of etymology. It's just word semantics. Well, that's rather fascinating.

01:38:20

So he acknowledges that the word actually does mean owned by a demon.

01:38:27

He says that's a definition, a definition. Very clever. At least he acknowledges it because Saldivar fights against that definition.

01:38:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So which is it? I mean, even the

01:38:41

Mr. Demon Slayer here, and I don't mean to poke fun, but that's what they call themselves. Even he is unclear, apparently, about whether or a

01:38:50

Christian. What's the difference between being demon possessed or demonized?

01:38:56

Jim, you and I have talked about this. So on the one hand they say, yeah, okay. A Christian can't be completely possessed or owned by Satan, even though he just admitted that's what the word actually is.

01:39:08

One of its legitimate understanding definitions. But they'll say, but you can still have demons inside of you that control what you think, control what you say, control your actions.

01:39:21

Well, if that's not possession, what is it? Yeah, it's a semantic shell game that they're playing there with that word demonized, because in the

01:39:29

New Testament, that word is only used of one condition. That is to be indwelt by a demon and to be controlled in some degree by a demon.

01:39:38

So what they do is they say, well, a Christian can never be demonized in the sense that they are owned by a demon, because Satan doesn't own anything.

01:39:45

All Christians belong to God. But then they want to turn around and say a Christian can be demonized because they expand the spectrum out that if you are tempted by a devil, on the one hand, then you are demonized in the sense that a devil is tempting you.

01:40:00

Or if you have been deceived and believed a lie, or if you have given it all the way from that on one side, all the way over to the other, completely controlled by a demon so that you have people in their meetings, in these tent meetings, who get up on stage and they spit up in a bucket that's them vomiting up demons.

01:40:17

And they have these outward manifestations where they're convulsing uncontrollably and uttering different words in a different voice.

01:40:26

And they're not in control of their body. And they say all of this is true and can be true of Christians, but they're not possessed or owned, but God owns them.

01:40:35

But the devil controls everything else about them. And that's not a distinction that you find anywhere in Scripture.

01:40:42

One who is possessed by a demon simply means that a demon controls them, is inwardly indwelling them, and then manifesting that in some outward sense.

01:40:53

That's how the word is used in the New Testament. So they want to get away from the idea that a

01:40:58

Christian can be demon possessed because they know that there's no biblical precedent for that. And so they want to disavow that notion, but they want to hold on to the idea that a demon can be living inside of you, controlling you, manifesting itself from within you, tempting you, deceiving you, and all of that.

01:41:16

So it's a semantic shell game that they're playing. And he says, it's all about etymology. It's all about word choice and word use and word origins and all of that sense.

01:41:26

No, we're talking about very clear definitions. Scripture says that a Christian cannot be demonized.

01:41:33

And if you admit that, that a demon cannot possess, control, or indwell a

01:41:38

Christian, then the entire deliverance ministry immediately vanishes. All of the need for it vanishes.

01:41:49

Scripture says that a Christian cannot be demonized. And if you admit that, that a demon cannot possess, control, or indwell a

01:41:58

Christian, then the entire deliverance ministry immediately vanishes. All of the need for it vanishes.

01:42:04

Yep. And then I would note, the game here that they're playing, it's a dangerous one, because they're taking a look at the definition of a word that appears in the

01:42:14

Scripture without actually looking at how that word is used in context. So, to talk about the word daimonizomai, apart from how it's used in biblical texts, is to play a game.

01:42:28

And so these guys know full well that if they were to go into the instances where daimonizomai is used, and by the way,

01:42:37

BDAG says, number one definition, to be possessed by a hostile spirit, okay, that when in the

01:42:45

Gospels somebody is daimonizomai'd, that's not exactly the way you say it, but they have no control over themselves.

01:42:53

And so what they're manifesting in their deliverance, smoke and light shows, is actual daimon possession, not this other thing that they're trying to say that it is.

01:43:06

They're being oppressed and daimonized, but they're not possessed. That's baloney. If I've lost control of my entire body and something else is speaking, using my mouth, then

01:43:17

I'm at this point, I'm no longer indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I'm indwelt by a demonic spirit. And so, but again, they're not interested in doing exegesis in context and looking how this word is used.

01:43:30

And you'll note, nowhere in the epistles does describe or even prescribe people to cast out demons from Christians who are daimonizomai'd.

01:43:40

There's no instance in the New Testament of anybody who's a Christian being daimonizomai'd. Yeah, that's right.

01:43:47

And the key point was made that if people knew the truth about that, it would put them out of business.

01:43:56

It would put them out of business and they don't want that. Now I've heard them say, oh, I'd love to be out of it.

01:44:01

No, they don't. No, this is their stick. Now I want to, unfortunate use of terms here,

01:44:11

I want to play devil's advocate because I know you must be daimonizomai'd.

01:44:18

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I sneezed earlier today too. So that's a sure sign you got a demon, you got to expel, you sneeze them out.

01:44:25

Okay. So here's what they will say in rebuttal to that. Well, Peter's great confession, thou art the

01:44:35

Christ, the son of the living God. And then right after that, Jesus said to Peter, get behind me,

01:44:43

Satan. Peter was obviously a believer, right? He was an apostle.

01:44:49

And Jesus said to him, get behind me, Satan. So this is Matthew 16. Now for context,

01:44:57

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke Christ. God forbid it Lord, this shall never happen to you.

01:45:03

Jesus was foretelling, prophesying his own suffering to come on the cross. And Peter said, this will never happen to you.

01:45:09

And Jesus turned to him and said, get behind me, Satan. So they would say, here's the apostle

01:45:15

Peter. And Jesus called him Satan. So let's say -

01:45:20

Did Jesus exercise a demon out of Peter? Nope. No, he didn't. All he did is rebuke him because Jesus was identifying the source of Peter's sentiment and his thinking.

01:45:30

Peter was not thinking in terms of God's plan of redemption and what was to come to pass in the fulfillment of scripture.

01:45:38

Instead, the origin of his thinking, the origin of that sentiment came from Satan himself.

01:45:46

But Jesus does not identify as being demonized. And Jesus did not prescribe an exorcism for Peter.

01:45:54

And in the modern charismatic movement, in the modern deliverance ministry movement, the prescription to that would not have been simply to rebuke him and say, look, what you're saying is a lie straight from the pit of hell.

01:46:05

The prescription would have been a deliverance session to exercise a demon. And by the way, to add on to what you said, the fact that Peter said something that was demonically inspired, or at least opposed to what

01:46:23

Christ's mission was, is not necessarily an indication that he was being oppressed by a specific demon because Satan is the father of lies.

01:46:34

I mean, any sinful action has dark origins, right? I mean, it all goes back to Satan, to all that.

01:46:42

So even that is not saying that Peter had a demon running around on the inside that made him say those things.

01:46:50

Any more so than if you tell a lie, or if you, whatever you do, you stub your toe and you let fly a four -letter, whatever.

01:47:02

It doesn't mean that every single time you sin, you've got to have demon expelled from you, right?

01:47:09

Pete And I would note that this is backed up by other passages of Scripture. Go all the way back to the book of Genesis in chapter 3 when

01:47:15

Adam and Eve are tempted by the serpent. There's the serpent talking to Eve and contradicting

01:47:22

God's word. Oh, you will not surely die. God knows that when you eat of this fruit, you're going to be like God, knowing good and evil.

01:47:28

And it doesn't say, and then Satan filled her heart and possessed her and then she ate the fruit. Instead, the words of Satan had filled her mind and now she was listening to a different voice than the voice of God.

01:47:39

And so, we have to recognize that Satan doesn't have to possess us to tempt us. Satan doesn't have to possess us in order to put a sinful thought in our minds.

01:47:51

And as a result of that, we can absolutely be tempted by the devil's schemes, by his mischief, by his misinformation and having that rattling around in our head.

01:48:02

You don't have to be possessed to have that happen. So, just like - Pete You can believe his lies. Pete Yeah. Pete You can believe his lies without being possessed by him.

01:48:10

Pete Yep. Which, let me add on to this text, because Isaiah Saldivar, he likes to go to Acts chapter 5, where Peter says to Ananias, after Ananias made it look like he was giving the whole proceeds from the sale of that property, but it was holding back part of it.

01:48:29

And so, Peter said to Ananias, this is Acts 5 .3, Ananias, why has Satan so filled your heart to lie to the

01:48:35

Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? And so, Saldivar claims that this is proof that here you've got a

01:48:42

Christian, Ananias, and Satan has filled his heart, that means he was demonized. Pete Yeah.

01:48:49

I've heard that one as well. Pete And I don't presume that Ananias was a believer. Pete That's right.

01:48:55

Pete Yeah, his actions don't really belie that. But here's the thing, it doesn't say he was possessed. If he was possessed or demonized, wouldn't the prescription have been to cast the demon out of him?

01:49:05

You know what Peter did? He spoke words and Ananias died, you know?

01:49:10

Pete Yeah, that's right. Pete So, I mean, wouldn't that be like apostolic malpractice rather than delivering the guy and killing him?

01:49:17

Pete Exactly, yeah. Why didn't, exactly, why didn't Peter just expel the demons and then

01:49:23

Ananias could have gone on, you know, serving the Lord and, you know, all that in the local church?

01:49:28

Pete It would have been a lot less paperwork, you know? Pete Right. Yeah, I know. Just cast the,

01:49:34

I mean, he was a legitimate apostle, unlike Pagani and these others. He was a legitimate Apostle, capital

01:49:40

A Apostle. He could have done that, but he didn't.

01:49:47

Pete Yep. So, based on their theology, Ananias was, you know, demonized.

01:49:54

You know, he should have been set free rather than murdered by the

01:49:59

Apostle. Pete Exactly, exactly. Well, boy, this is good.

01:50:05

I know we're going long, I think we've covered some really good ground here. I'm excited about this.

01:50:12

Okay, last and least, Jim, so you are doing research.

01:50:22

Jim Oh, no. Pete You have bought a lot of books, some of which I've bought myself.

01:50:28

Now, let me just say, dear ones, what you're about to see, this is not to be salacious.

01:50:35

This is not to be edgy. This is simply to point out the absurdity of this whole movement.

01:50:45

It's theology, it's teachings, it's practice. So, if there's little ones watching right now, this might be a good time to to press the pause button.

01:50:57

This is not, again, this is not to be salacious. We're going to read from what is probably right now one of the leading books in the deliverance ministries,

01:51:07

The Secrets of, or excuse me, The Secrets to Deliverance by Alexander Pagani.

01:51:14

So, yeah, little ones might want to hit the pause button. Jim I promise

01:51:19

I will only use medical terminology as I'm reading this. Pete Yes. Jim But in Pagani's book, here are the chapter titles.

01:51:29

Chapter one, The Mystery of Prototype Timing. Chapter two, The Blueprint of the Temple, and there's a lot to be said about how they misuse the analogy of a temple to describe how a

01:51:39

Christian can be demon possessed, because they'll say that our body is a temple and the spirit can come into the outer court, the court of the

01:51:45

Gentiles, and control us outwardly, but he can't come into the very holy of holies.

01:51:50

That's the analogy of the temple. So they make a lot out of that temple analogy in order to differentiate where demons can control us and the ways in which they can control us, etc.

01:52:01

Chapter three, Understanding the Regulations and Procedures of Deliverance Ministry. Chapter four, Identifying Demonic Entrances and Exits.

01:52:09

Now I'm going to read something from that chapter here in just a minute. Chapter five is Recognizing Other Key Demonic Targets.

01:52:15

Chapter six, Going Deeper in Deliverance. Chapter seven, Key Rooms to Target for Deliverance.

01:52:21

Chapter eight, Four Steps to Purge the Romans. And then chapter nine, Prayers for the Rooms and the Body Parts.

01:52:27

So this is from chapter four, Identifying Demonic Entrances and Exits. So Pagani goes into detail about the different places in our body, physical bodies, where demons can reside and linger and how you might need to exercise or target prayers to these various body parts.

01:52:44

He says that we should be specific. And then he gives a number of ways in which these body parts can inhabit, be inhabited by demons.

01:52:52

The mouth and the lips is included as an entrance or an exit. The eyes can have demons. The ears can have demons.

01:53:00

The nose can have demons. And he talks about the mystery of the sneeze, how sneezing can expel demons from you.

01:53:09

And then he has on page 68, the anus. And this is where we get into the medical terminology.

01:53:15

I want to read to you, and it's just a short section about how demons can linger around your anus.

01:53:22

The anus, this is quoting from Pagani, the anus is an exit. Mark 17, 18 to 19,

01:53:28

Mark 7, sorry, Mark 7, 18 to 19, King James says this, quote, And he saith unto them,

01:53:34

Are you so without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man?

01:53:41

It cannot defile him because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly and goeth out into the draw, purging all meats.

01:53:49

He's talking about food passing through. It comes in the mouth and exits out the anus. That's the quotation from Mark chapter 7.

01:53:57

Then Pagani, back to Pagani's words, he says this, There is no other purpose for this part of the body than to rid the body of waste.

01:54:03

Demons know this and are always looking for a way to abuse this body part through sexual exploitation, making it an entry instead of only an exit.

01:54:15

Using the anus as an entry is an abomination. When conducting deliverance on those struggling with homosexuality, you must target prayer towards this exit to remove all demonic spirits lurking there.

01:54:27

Decree freedom in this body part by saying this prayer out loud, Holy Spirit, every part of my body has been made by your hands into sacred ground, even the parts used for releasing waste.

01:54:40

I repent of using this area to fill in the blank, and he says, repent of whatever the

01:54:45

Holy Spirit reveals being specific and targeting the root. Lord Jesus, I ask you to sever every curse over this area.

01:54:53

I renounce every demon hiding in this part of my anatomy. By the authority of your name,

01:54:59

I command every demon to leave my body now. I declare this area cleansed by the blood of Jesus and now dedicated to God and to be used only for its original purpose.

01:55:09

In Jesus name, amen. And then Pagani says, or you can continue praying as the Holy Spirit guides you.

01:55:15

And then the next section deals with the genitals and has a similar prescription for that.

01:55:20

And then the skin, that is the theology of deliverance ministry.

01:55:29

Yep. That is appalling.

01:55:36

It is absurd. It is patently absurd. A, nowhere in scripture do you find these kinds of instructions where you talk to specific body parts.

01:55:47

I don't care what the body part is. So this is extra biblical revelation. Scripture does not prescribe it, does not even describe it.

01:55:58

Nothing of the sort. So this is extra biblical revelation. And we've already talked about it.

01:56:05

First Corinthians 6, 9, 10, and 11, do not be deceived.

01:56:10

Neither fornicators nor idolaters, nor feminine, nor homosexuals, nor revilers, nor adulterers or swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

01:56:20

And then Paul says, for such were some of you. Yep. You were those things.

01:56:27

You're not anymore. You were a reviler. You're not anymore. You were an adulterer. You're not anymore.

01:56:32

You were a homosexual. You're not anymore, but you were washed. You were sanctified.

01:56:38

You were justified. This is salvation. This is regeneration. This is the new birth.

01:56:44

That's what delivers you from homosexuality and every other sin.

01:56:49

There's your deliverance, salvation, regeneration. You know,

01:56:58

Justin, what I just read is intended to keep Christians in bondage. And I deal with this book.

01:57:04

I deal with this in my book, Truth of Territory. It is intended to keep Christians in bondage to these deliverance ministry experts, because now every

01:57:14

Christian, in their theology, every Christian could have demons lurking in their anus, in their genitals, in their eyes, in their ears.

01:57:22

And they need their specific formula prayers to renounce and unnounce and to cast, break curses and all the nonsense that goes with that entire territory view of spiritual warfare.

01:57:34

And so now you have to buy the book and you have to pray the prayer. And you have to, if you were delivered out of a homosexual lifestyle and you have a thought that pops into your head, obviously you've got a demon lingering around your anus.

01:57:46

So you're going to have to pray this prayer again and renounce this all over again. It keeps Christians in bondage to this theology of deliverance that keeps them chasing after renouncing curses and uttering the right phrases and identifying these things.

01:58:03

Of course, you need the experts to help you identify any of it, because Scripture doesn't identify any of that nonsense.

01:58:10

Scripture doesn't teach any of that. Pete Yeah. This shows us why sola scriptura is so important.

01:58:17

The Scripture is clear that all Scripture is God -breathed, theanoustos, and is profitable for teaching, correcting, rebuking, and training, so the man of God may be complete and equipped for every good work.

01:58:30

That phrase, every good work, it means every good work. There isn't a good work that Christ would have you do that Scripture will not prepare you for.

01:58:39

So since Scripture doesn't teach any of this nonsense about orifice demons, then

01:58:47

I would note that this is similar to the belief that prayers to the saints, that Mary was a perpetual virgin, all that kind of nonsense, it's not in the

01:58:59

Scripture. This goes into that same bucket. It is completely extra -biblical, and not only that,

01:59:07

I hate to say this, that people, when they come to their senses, are going to be horrifically embarrassed to have to admit that they submitted themselves to that kind of ministry, because, you know,

01:59:19

I mean, this is just embarrassingly awful. I used to think that I'm so glad that I'm a pastor during the time of the

01:59:27

New Testament rather than a priest in the Old, because the priests of the Old Testament were required to have skin diseases shown to them, because if somebody had a breakout of leprosy, the job of the priest was to determine whether or not they were clean or unclean, and I'm thinking that would be a horrible job.

01:59:44

But could you imagine these people, in the name of Christ, they have ministers out there casting demons out of people's butts.

01:59:52

I mean, what on earth are we talking about here? And the people who subject themselves to this, it's not going to work, and they're going to have to embarrassingly say, yeah,

02:00:04

I did that. And the thing is, is that you should know better, because nowhere in the

02:00:10

Bible are we instructed to do any of this. Go back to Sola Scriptura, and what it is that we need is to look at the clear passages of Scripture.

02:00:19

The passage that Justin just read out from 1 Corinthians 6, it says, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified.

02:00:28

Christ has redeemed you from all of this stuff, and he didn't have to cast any demons out of your nose, or your ears, or your mouth, or your genitals, or other parts of your nether regions.

02:00:39

It's just nonsense. Yeah, absolute nonsense, absolute nonsense.

02:00:46

And Pagani, I've heard Pagani say several times that he said, oh,

02:00:52

I'm Sola Scriptura, I'm Sola Scriptura. No, you're not. No, he couldn't even define that.

02:00:57

No, no, you're not. None of these people are. That's the problem, is none of this is

02:01:05

Sola Scriptura. It's all extra scriptura. So, as I said a little while ago,

02:01:15

I know these demon slayers will watch this video. I know they will. Isaiah Saldivar will watch it.

02:01:21

Alexander Pagani will watch it. Greg Locke will watch it. I know they will. And so to them,

02:01:26

I say, I've done this with Benny Hinn. I've done it with Kenneth Copeland. I've done it with Joel Osteen.

02:01:33

I've done it with all these others. I make an appeal to you. I don't hate you.

02:01:40

I do hate what you're doing because you are leading people into the very bondage from which you claim to be helping them out of.

02:01:49

You're leading them into bondage. You're leading yourself into bondage.

02:01:55

Examine yourself to see if you're in the faith. That's there for a reason. None of you are qualified to be in ministry.

02:02:05

None of you are. Do yourself and everyone else that has been listening to you a favor.

02:02:12

Get out of the ministry right now. Shut it down. You can't exposit scripture.

02:02:19

You can't rightly divide the word of truth. You are bringing millions of people into bondage and you are bringing untold reproach upon the name of Christ.

02:02:31

And you are heaping condemnation upon yourselves that you do not want to one day face.

02:02:38

Get out of ministry. Examine yourself to see if you're in the faith. Find a good, biblically defined church led by biblically qualified men, elders.

02:02:51

Sit in the pew and learn. That's what I plea for you to do.

02:02:58

And for anyone watching this, if you've been following these deliverance ministries, if you've been going to these meetings, if you have been led into spiritual bondage because you think you've got a demon, if you've got some sin issue and you've got, no, your freedom is in Christ.

02:03:16

Colossians 1, 12, and 13, that's your deliverance. Delivered out of the kingdom of darkness, into the kingdom of light, into the family of God through regeneration, repentance of sin, placing your trust in Christ.

02:03:31

That's deliverance. And that is the only deliverance. Brothers, do you all have any final words for us?

02:03:39

Yeah, I have some words for Alexander Pagani. And I have been a careful student of his for the better part of this year.

02:03:48

And I have seen the videos where he expresses doubt as to whether or not he's legit.

02:03:55

And I think his conscience is getting the best of him. And so, Alexander Pagani, you need to repent and you know it.

02:04:04

And you know that you're false and you know it. Reach out to me. Send me an email. There's an easy way to do it.

02:04:11

My email is talkbackatfightingforthefaith .com. Send me an email. Let's talk.

02:04:17

Because I know that you know that you're false. And I have hope for you. And I pray for your repentance.

02:04:23

And I've been praying for it for a long time. But it's time for this facade to come down and for you to get real about the stuff that you already know is false and the evil that you have participated in against your conscience.

02:04:36

You've made it clear that you've done that. And you need to repent. I can help you. Amen. Amen.

02:04:44

And I pray for these people too, Chris and Jim, I'm sure you have as well. I've specifically prayed for all the people that we've mentioned in this video.

02:04:56

We want to see them come to a place of genuine repentance. That's what we want.

02:05:01

All of us want. Yeah. Reach out to Chris. Reach out to me.

02:05:07

But absolutely. All right, brothers. Thank you so much for your time.

02:05:14

Thank you, gentlemen. I think by God's grace, I think by God's grace, this will help a lot of people.

02:05:20

I hope so. All right. Jim, why don't you close us with the gospel and we'll sign off.

02:05:29

Yeah. The gospel is that you and I, all of us, have all violated God's law.

02:05:34

We have lied, stolen, blasphemed God's name. We're guilty of those crimes. And without a sin substitute, without a sin bearer, we will perish under the wrath of God for all of eternity.

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That is the bad news. We are all guilty sinners. And if you are outside of Jesus Christ, you could be demon possessed.

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You are definitely under the deception of the devil. You're in his kingdom. He is your father. And if you were to die today, you would get what rightly comes to you, which is judgment under the wrath of God for your sin in an eternal hell, conscious, physical torment, everlastingly, because of your sin against the most holy

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God. But that's the bad news. The good news is that God sent his son, the Lord Jesus Christ, into this world.

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He lived a perfect life, fulfilling the demands of God's law in our place.

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He died a perfect death on that cross, suffering the wrath that you and I deserve. And then he was buried. And three days later, he rose again.

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And he commands you this day to repent and to trust in that sacrifice. And if you will do that, God will bring you into his family.

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He will deliver you permanently out of the kingdom of darkness, into the kingdom of his son. You need to call out to God for mercy and grace and turn from your sin and believe savingly upon Jesus Christ and be born again.

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That is what scripture commands you to do in response to that good news. And call out to God and ask him to grant you the gift of faith, the gift of repentance, and to turn you from your sin and deliver you.

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And God will do that. Those who come to the son, he will not cast out. You will find him a faithful and true and sure savior from your sin, both now and forever.

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Again, whom the son sets free is free indeed. That's right. Brothers, thank you so much.

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Thank you. Thank you. Okay, dear ones, thank you so very much for watching.

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If you've stuck it all the way through to this point, I think you can see our heart in this. I think you can see that Jim and Chris and I want to see people truly delivered and experience true freedom.

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And that is found only in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember Colossians chapter 1 verse 13.

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That is your deliverance. All this other stuff just leads you into bondage. Christ will lead you out of it.

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So if you've been watching this and maybe you've been following some of these deliverance ministries, maybe you've been sucked into it to one degree or another, leave it.

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Just drop it. Don't pass go. Don't collect $200. Leave it. If you're going to a church that practices this stuff, leave it.

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Don't pass go. Don't collect $200. Leave it. It's not a sound church.

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Leave it. Find a good doctrinally sound church that has a high view of salvation, that has a high view of God's sovereignty, that is led by biblically qualified elders, men who are committed to expository preaching, who practice church discipline per Matthew 18.

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That's a good litmus test of how seriously a church actually does take God's word.

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And so find a good doctrinally sound church and join yourself to it. And then and only then will you truly begin to grow in Christ.

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This stuff will only hinder your growth. It'll only keep you in bondage. But the gospel and a good doctrinally sound church will lead you into true freedom.

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So that is what we want to see for you. And again, for the deliverance ministries, if you're still watching, repent.

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Repent. I want to see you come to a place of true faith and true repentance as well. All right, dear ones, until our next time together, may the grace of our

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Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of His Holy Spirit be with you all.