J.P. Moreland

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white and good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon just reading a Fascinating article and man.

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I'm really warm for some reason today. I'm not sure why it's yeah, real real real loud. Not sure why

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Reading a very interesting article dated yesterday postcard from San Diego fighting bibliology at the

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Evangelical Theological Society Talbot's JP Moreland warns that evangelicals are over committed to the

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Bible Yeah, this is yeah. I This is by Ted Olson.

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Let's let's let's read this together because Yeah, anyway

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While the ballroom sessions the first day of the Evangelical Theological Society meeting had more attendees

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No session was as packed as JP Moreland's how evangelicals became over committed to the

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Bible and what can be done about it? While the average breakout session seems to be attended by fewer than 50 people

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Easily more than 200 packed the room to hear Moreland's talk with dozens standing and more listening outside the door

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It's little wonder why so many people attended ETS membership has only two doctrinal requirements

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You must affirm the Trinity and the inerrancy of Scripture The first part has not been controversial of late

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But the second was the focus of the society's recent fight over open theism and was named as a reason why

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Francis Beckwith Could not remain as ETS president after his conversion to Roman Catholicism in short to accuse

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Evangelicals of over commitment to the Bible at ETS would be like accusing Environmentalists of talking too much about climate change at a

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Sierra Club meeting But Moreland who has gained some prominence as a philosopher and apologist wasn't pulling any punches quote in The actual practices the evangelical community in North America There is an over commitment to Scripture in a way that is false irrational and harmful to the cause of Christ He said and it has produced a mean

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Spiritedness among the over committed that is a grotesque and often ignorant distortion of discipleship under the

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Lord Jesus The problem he said is the idea the Bible is the sole source of knowledge of God morality and a host of related important items

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Accordingly the Bible is taken to be the sole authority for faith and practice. Let me stop right there.

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I Personally don't know anyone Who believes that the

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Bible is the sole source of knowledge of God? Morality and a host of related important items.

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I don't know anybody like that. I've not met anyone like that, but Let's say that that's the case.

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They would be wrong because the Bible would contradict them The Bible says that God has revealed himself in many ways.

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He is seen in the creation around us and so That that simply wouldn't make any sense to say that this is the sole source of knowledge of God but I don't see any

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Logical connection between accordingly and this is a direct quote Accordingly the

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Bible is taken to be the sole authority for faith and practice Faith and practice is not the same thing as knowledge of God morality and a host related important items.

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It's faith and practice and So it is taken to be the sole infallible authority for faith and practice

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Yeah but Where the word infallible go? I think we're gonna find out once again that theology matters and that's always been an area of Disagreement anyways continuing on with the article suppose an

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Archaeologist discovered a portion of the ancient city of Jerusalem that was specifically described in the Old Testament Moreland said quote could the archaeologist have discovered the site without the use of the

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Old Testament Once discovered could the archaeologist learn things about the site that went beyond what was in the

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Old Testament clearly the answer is yes to both Questions why because the site actually exists in the real world as it does not exist in the

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Bible It is only described in the Bible and the biblical description is partial and quote well

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I can't see how anyone could possibly argue with any of that. I also struggled to see exactly why that's

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Overly relevant, but that's the assertion being made likewise more than argued because the human soul

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Spirit and demons angels are real it is possible in fact actual that extra biblical knowledge can be gained about these

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Spiritual entities demons not exist in the Bible they exist in reality now

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I see a fundamental Confusion here between such things as an archaeological site which is evidence of history and if it has interface with scripture, then it's evidence from history of God's activities in history past and hence can be examined and Frequently when it is examined is very enlightening to us and useful to us and anyone who studied old and New Testament backgrounds knows

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How useful these things can be? But I see a major difference between an archaeological dig and such things as demons and spirits

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Because demons and spirits are theological Constructs and entities that we learn about from scripture and while a person encountering such things

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Might have personal experience. I The scriptures give us the framework into which our personal experience should be fitted because of the nature of the scriptures being that which is

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God -breathed and The fact that I as a human being Experience things in a fallen world and with limited perception

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So I continue on with the article by not researching how demons work how to fight them and other such issues by for example working with exorcists

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Christian scholars are harming the church Moreland argued in a similar vein He thinks evangelical scholars and the movement as a whole are rejecting quote guidance revelation and so forth from God through impressions dreams visions prophetic words words of knowledge and wisdom and quote

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I Let that one sink in for just a moment I'm sort of wondering if the cannon is open or closed or you know, just what's going on here

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Continuing quote we shut that down because of charismatic excesses He said because of abuses we fear teaching people how to use it we think it's all going to be

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Benny Hinn or something like that and quote A third area where a

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Moreland critiqued evangelical over commitment to the Bible was in the scarcity of evangelical appear appeals to natural theology and moral law in their political and cultural discussions now here is

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Where we encounter the great divide the vast and I think fully appropriate divide between natural law theologians, that's primarily

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Rome and Those who see the scripture as the ultimate authority in these issues

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Which are mostly reformed folks and JP Moreland if he's anything is not reformed again, as I mentioned theology matters and so quote the sparse landscape of evangelical political thought stands in stark contrast to the overflowing garden

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Both of evangelical biblical scholarship and Catholic reflection on reason general revelation and cultural and political engagement

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He said we evangelicals could learn a lesson or two from our Catholic friends and quota.

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Remember what? Frank Beckwith has said numerous times where he Entered into the discussion of his

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Why he wasn't a Catholic was in exactly that context was in the context of speaking about John Paul the seconds viewpoints regarding the issue of Natural law and things like that.

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He delivered a paper on the subject and then when he Was asked that started him thinking.

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Well, why am I not a Catholic etc, etc So we see the connection going on here

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That wasn't as provocative a statement coming a few months after the Let's see That wasn't as yeah, that wasn't as provocative a statement coming a few months after the

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ETS president became one of those Catholic friends Catholicism is on the agenda here and Catholics are both implicitly and explicitly discussed in the meetings many discussions of justification

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But Catholicism doesn't seem to be the note new open theism at ETS No more provocative was

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Moreland's argument about why evangelicals became over committed to the Bible rather than developing a robust epistemology in response to secularism

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He said evangelicals reacted and retreated now evangelical theologians aren't allowed to come to any new conclusions about the truths in Scripture and They're not allowed to find truths outside of Scripture as a result

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He said they're engaged in private language games and increasingly detailed minutiae and we're not seeking work on broad cultural themes

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There are quite frankly a number of papers here that reflect private language games and increasingly detailed minutiae there will be in a in a few days to at the joint meeting of the

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American Academy of Religion in the Society of Biblical literature and there are at just about every other major academic conference

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I've ever attended But I think Moreland's critique stung here perhaps more than it might elsewhere This is a group torn between his desire to do respectable

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Scholarship and its desire to serve the church Moreland's Jeremy odd hit them on both fronts again.

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This is from Christianity Today, and that was an article by Ted Olson it

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It truly strikes me that the last thing that is actually the problem for Evangelicalism today is in fact anything whatsoever to do with over commitment to Scripture if anything there is

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Significantly less commitment to Scripture than there needs to be but this was an epistemological argument on on Moreland's Westmoreland's part and JP Moreland's Westmoreland It was really comes from his theology and his background

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More than it comes from anything else and So what do you think eight seven seven seven five three three three four one the

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Catholics are chuckling About this because there's some very loose language found in in this particular

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Terminology than this particular Jeremy odd to use the terminology used by Ted Olson if you don't include such terms as Infallible sources of authority to differentiate between fallible and infallible

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There just seems to be a lot of confusion on JP Moreland's comments that point he does mention that the paper is not online, but that he had struck these themes and other works and It would be interesting to see the paper when it says put online though Some of those quotes sounded more like just a talk than it did any formal paper.

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That was that was being presented. So quite the interesting Commentary coming from JP Moreland and ETS I as I've mentioned many times before it was nine years ago right about now that I attended the sole

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ETS meeting that I have attended presented a paper on Gregory Stafford and Have said that you know,

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I will have to be dragged kicking and screaming Back to such a meeting. I I did not find it.

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I had some some good Experiences there in the sense that You know,

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I met some some good folks friends of mine. We had some good conversations I've told you about Roger Nichols shuffling up to the microphone after being after so it was the 50th anniversary the founding of it and so they some person in the in the audience asked why did you put the

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Bible alone in in the Statement of Faith and Roger Nicole goes shuffling up to the

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To the microphone and just very simply says because we didn't want any Roman Catholics in the group and then shuffled back to the seat and I Got a kick out of that, but so there are a couple of things like that, but in general the the attitude of of the of the

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Academy Gently seeking to guide the benighted Church Was just repulsive to me and I just didn't have any any desire whatsoever to go back.

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But That that I bet you it's quite interesting over there this year after the

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Beckwith fiasco and things along those lines Speaking of the the Beckwith fiasco, and I think it's a good way to put it

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I was fairly taken aback by the

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Comments left by dr. Michael Bauman of Hillsdale College on a certain blog earlier today

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I provided those comments in my response on my blog

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Posted just a couple of hours ago his specific statements were number one

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I don't see the wisdom or utility of continued engagement on the subject of Frank Beckwith's alleged apostasy from Christianity With folks who do not know the definition of apostasy

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And I'm not sure who that would be about it certainly wasn't about me Number two, I don't see the wisdom or utility of continued engagement on the subject of Frank Beckwith's alleged apostasy from Christianity With folks who cannot distinguish between first century

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Judaizers and modern Roman Catholics now I think that I was the only person who mentioned

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First century Judaizers, and I I mentioned them in the context of seeking some kind of biblical and apostolic understanding of What is a

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Christian confession? How do we deal with those who claim to follow

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Christ, but by apostolic decree are anathema are Are not well as Paul put it are false

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Pseudo Adelphi false brothers their confession is not true they they claim to be brothers, but they are not and the fact that the foundation of Paul's Condemnation of the

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Judaizers is not Christological that is it's not specifically about the person of Christ there's no evidence whatsoever that they denied the incarnation or or that they were opposed to the

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Trinity or anything like that instead the foundation of Paul's assertions

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Clearly soteriologically clearly have to do with the gospel as we see in Galatians 1 when he says

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That they were preaching another gospel, which is not another. It's not another the same kind it's a it's a different kind of gospel a gospel that brings the anathema of God because it does not save and so with that I thought fairly obviously that That's an extremely relevant

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Question to raise and I was actually sort of looking forward to seeing What kind of response dr.

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Baumann would would offer but evidently He does not want to talk to people who cannot distinguish between first century

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Judaizers and modern Roman Catholics now of course Since I'm the one that brought that up I guess that's aimed at me

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And I clearly did distinguish between them and as I point out in my blog response the

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Judaizers were significantly more Orthodox than Roman Catholics They were not promoting as dogmas of the

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Christian faith the idea that Mary had been bodily assumed in the heaven Or that you must believe in the immaculate conception or the perpetual virginity of Mary They knew nothing of such things as infallible human popes

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Called the vicar of Christ and Holy Father. They did not have priests who were called an altar Christus another

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Christ They did not have satis pastia. They don't have purgatory. They did not have seven sacraments by which they channeled

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God's grace They were much much more Orthodox Than Roman Catholicism is and so I made a rather clear distinction

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Between them and and so I'm not sure how dr. Baumann could so completely miss the essence of my comments unless of course he doesn't have an answer

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To those comments and hence is ducking out by throwing stink bombs and Trying to just avoid the issue entirely which we would

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Like to not think is the case, but as the comments go on that does seem to suggest itself as the only logical conclusion

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Because number three I do not see the wisdom or utility of continued engagement the subject of Frank Beckwith's alleged apostasy from the faith

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With folks who cannot distinguish between the gospel parentheses faith in Christ, which

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Frank clearly affirms Parentheses closed and assent to sola fide ism quote parentheses a theory of justification which

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Frank does not affirm Parentheses closed failure to distinguish between them means you do not know the gospel

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Now at this point I was again Fairly amazed at The assertion that was that was being made and the reason being that There this seems to be incredibly muddled thinking

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Certainly every Roman Catholic proclaims faith in Christ and Evidently from dr.

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Baumann's perspective that Means all Roman Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ I thought he had at once identified himself as being reformed and you know historically that really hasn't been the reformed understanding

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So I'm not really sure why I'd use that terminology of himself when clearly it's not really descriptive of what he actually believes, but anyway

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That was you know just a misunderstanding on my part. I guess reading way way way too much into the use the term reformed but Still I Have to think that dr.

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Baumann would I wonder what dr. Baumann would say about the conversations going on with Robert Millett the

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Mormon professor from Brigham Young University who likewise cannot be questioned as to his assertion of faith in Christ Now if immediately dr.

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Baumann says well, we know what Mormons believe about Jesus, then you're saying well, so what one believes about who

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Christ is really does matter and And so I guess Extending as much charity far more charity that was extended toward myself

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Extending charity, maybe the idea here is well. Yes, you've got to be truly Trinitarian You can have all the soteriological heresy you want

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You can you can teach people that their loved ones are burning in boiling sulfur in purgatory

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But they're gonna make it to heaven if you you know buy your indulgences, but it's okay Because you still have faith in Christ But if you believe

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Jesus the spirit brother of Lucifer while you're toast or if you believe Jesus Michael the Archangel so what this leads me to Conclude is that for dr.

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Baumann? When Jesus said if anyone is ashamed of me and my gospel he cuts those two right down the middle

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Because you can have faith in Jesus But denies gospel and still be a Christian evidently

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Because really when you say the gospel is faith in Christ and Then you contrast that with solafidism a theory of Justification is that what solafidism is just a theory of justification that you can agree with or not agree with you know

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I Said that doesn't sound to me like someone who has any passion for solafide. You know

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I really wonder about folks who can who can limit it in that way and and not see the interrelatedness of the various aspects of the gospel and that solafide obviously goes with solo gratia and solos

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Christus and and what that means and the freedom of God and Salvation self -glorification all that stuff.

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It's sort of all all goes together but it seems that you can have faith in Jesus, but Not in his gospel that you can split him up so you can have faith in the person of Christ but have completely divergent views the work of Christ just just totally totally contradictory views of The work of Christ, and that's okay

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That's how you can slide all of Rome's massive additions in there is as well. They're Orthodox on the person of Christ, and that's all that really matters

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But then how then do you turn around? having Divorced the work of Christ from the person of Christ and now the gospel is defined outside the work of Christ No more cross no more resurrection

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No more law works grace Basically everything all the arguments of Galatians and Romans are wasted papyri

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Because those were irrelevant. I don't know what Paul was thinking about this stuff It makes no sense whatsoever what he was doing in Galatia.

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Why argue about this stuff because it just doesn't matter This is all just side issues But then how do you turn around having totally and radically redefined all of these things and then say that failure to distinguish between them

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Means you do not know the gospel it Sounds to me

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Like he is asserting that I I don't know the gospel Frank Beckwith does

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Frank Beckwith can can affirm papal infallibility and bodily assumption married immaculate conception perpetual virginity and and Purgatory and the massive material tax and sacrifice and all that stuff, but if I say that he has

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Committed an act of apostasy if he wants to actually confess the truth in the first place, which I kept bringing up But no one ever mentions those things

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Then I'm the one who doesn't know the gospel Hmm That's an amazing leap that that that sort of leaves you sitting back going

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Wow what what's going on here hmm On number four

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I do not say the wisdom or utility of continuing engagement on the topic of Frank Beckwith's alleged apostasy from faith in Christ if Frank Is not allowed to affirm in his own words whether or not he has faith in Christ His personal testimony to faith in Christ is every bit as full and compelling as any

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Such confession of faith record for us in the Gospels or in Acts At least the Inquisitors let the accused speak for himself before condemning him not here well once again

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Evidently when dr. Bowman would log into this blog he'd get a completely different set of comments and discussions than the rest of the world does when they log into the same blog because This is just simply connect disconnected from reality.

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I mean, this is just like what are you talking about? No one shut

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Frank Beckwith down from making his profession of faith. He's he was Allowed to say all sorts of stuff on stand to reason and he's been on the

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Catholic answers and and the coming home network and and who's who's shut him down who's

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Who's allowed him to not say I believe in Christ. We all accept that We all accept that he says that so does so to Joseph Smith So is every

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Jehovah's Witness? Good grief, so does every Muslim folks. Hello But what does what do those words mean

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What is the context what is do these words carry meaning or are we just now reduced down to?

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Well, as long as you say I have faith in Christ. Boom. You're a Christian Is that how you get the the the Christian Muslims, you know up in the

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Northwest or something that lady up there? We think she's a Christian Muslim and put them all together because words don't have meaning anymore and So I have to wonder what what is this supposed to mean?

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No one's arguing that Frank Beckwith has denied that Jesus is the

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Jewish Messiah or The deity of Christ any of those things that has never been the point

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Don't know how anybody could possibly read anything that has been said and come to that conclusion unless again, this is just rhetorical flourish to try to sort of get around actually answering the rather tough questions of Dr.

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Baumann's position of divorcing the gospel from the definition of the Christian faith But Frank Beckwith has been allowed to affirm in his own words whether or not he has faith in Christ.

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The question is whether affirming faith in Christ while affirming faith and the infallibility of the

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Bishop of Rome and while affirming belief in the perpetuatory nature of the sacrifice of the mass and the existence of purgatory and Saraswatio and priests are called an altar

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Christus and ordination vows and the Marian dogmas is the same thing as Confessing faith in Christ in a biblical sense

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Which of course did not include any of those additions during the apostolic period and in the inspired scriptures

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So when someone says that his personal testimony to faith in Christ is every bit as full and compelling as any such Confessions of faith accord for us the gospel and acts

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I it's hard for me not to laugh at the absurdity of Such a statement because that is just as true of any

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Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or any other number of cults and false religions it is it is fallacious argument argumentation on its surface and It's clearly intended to just avoid the reality of the situation and that is he has divorced the gospel from the

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Christ It's not be ashamed of me and my gospel It's just be ashamed of me or be ashamed of my gospel, but the two aren't the same thing anymore

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They don't go together anymore. They can be cut in half and you can you can get rid of the gospel part and all as well and that's what he's trying to get around and It does seem to me that in every single one of those confessions of faith in the

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Gospels or in the acts you have when it is even mentioned the

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Proclamation of apostolic doctrine to these individuals so that they might be rooted and grounded in the faith

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They do seem to go together. And if they are not willing to submit to that apostolic doctrine then they are

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Removed from the fellowship of the church of which they are not truly members And then the final comment

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Fairly short says enough no more pearl casting for me and no more dusty sandals now obviously we have a fairly biblically literate audience and so You fully know exactly what both of those phrases say

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Pearl casting is casting pearls before swine and if I am in fact the primary person

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Being addressed in these comments, then we know what dr. Bauman Considers me to be and no more dusty sandals

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You are to shake the dust off of your sandals as a sign of judgment upon any village that would not receive your testimony and receive your teaching and Both are signs of judgment upon those who have refused a clear and compelling

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Presentation of God's truth. I will leave it to the audience to determine who has undertaken to actually discuss

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God's truth on the basis of the scriptures and Who has not but some

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I was I was really taken aback. I truly was

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The Initial statements that I had seen from dr. Baumann gave me no reason to believe that this kind of Dismissive in -your -face type thing was going to Be coming my direction, but it's not the first time

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That something like this has taken place. It probably won't be the last time What can

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I say we live in a day where I mean right here Bauman's at Hillsdale College J.

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P. Moreland's Talbot and What have we heard so far? We've heard about over commitment to the scriptures we've heard about Looking for revelations and dreams and visions

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We have heard about how we need to learn from our Catholic friends to make appeals to natural law

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And we have likewise then heard from dr. Baumann that the gospel

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The gospel is not a part of what defines the Christian faith now, that's not anything new If you haven't been listening back in the 1990s

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I remember a dividing line where we were actually on the air and I mean radio air and local station and the

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Bible Answer Man broadcasts on right before ours and Norman Geisler was on and He was in essence saying that if you believe that justification by faith is a part of the gospel

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And you'll believe there any Christians prior to the Reformation So there's nothing new about this this is this is

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This is not anything new at all the pragmatic well, you look at church history, and you take very simplistic viewpoints of things and and Determined that well that just must mean this is just a theory of justification

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But if that's what's being taught to folks you shouldn't be too shocked when this is the kind of response you get it's it's it's a sad thing, but Anyway, I actually went back a little bit past my break time eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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I know I've been on a bit of a roll and These are pretty amazing things, but would like to hear what you have to say maybe hey, maybe you agree

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I'd like to hear from you. We haven't set up our sky thing by the way though rich someone did grab the

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A name for us, and it's just a matter of giving us the the password and It'll it'll be accessible to us so that may be something we may want to be thinking about in the not -too -distant future to have

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Have Skype set up so that those who are listening Can get hold of us except for poor

32:56

Carla in the extreme outer reaches of Canada someplace where Where she has a string and a tin can and it is attached to her computer

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And when the wind blows that causes all of her files to become corrupted because it shakes the string and and messes everything for Carla Carla is the one that designed all of our shirts and stuff like that and the

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You know theology matters shirts and stuff like that so we like to pick on her because she has a almost terminal case of dye lump syndrome and So We'll pick on her again, so anyway

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Let's go ahead and take our break and you can dial eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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We'll be right back right after this What is dr.

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Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

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Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

34:37

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the

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Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

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Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day

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The charges are as follows Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org you

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That air bass going real well there, you know, that's uh,

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I like that's good stuff Yes Bartimaeus comes back in channel who keeps kicking me.

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That's me Bartimaeus. You're a whiner. We need new commercials Well Then you come up with some bother it takes a while for genius to come up with stuff like that pulpit crimes commercial, right

37:53

Rich He's still recovering from the effort That was what about a year ago,

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I think so. Oh Yes, yes get out the gal the paddles you

38:08

Yep. There you go. There you go. Sometimes I had to turn the camera toward the Control room so you can see rich in there.

38:14

It's at least we have fun. But anyway, hey, by the way Steve Ray good old

38:21

Steve, right? I just you know, you gotta like Steve because he's such a caricature of himself He really is.

38:28

Yeah. Yeah this guy with his with his funny hat and gallivanting around the world and after a while, you just got a sort of chuckle and And He puts this this article up.

38:41

Let's see. What's the what's the date on this thing is? yesterday The eagle and the noisy crows thoughts on dr.

38:49

Beckwith and his critics and you can imagine Who the noisy crows are and he has pictures of eagles and crows and stuff about his ranch and stuff

38:59

The end of the article says By the way, a few people notice the crows but many love the

39:04

Eagles and like most Christians I find it best to ignore the noisy crows myself. They are a waste of time now.

39:11

We've we've read Steve Ray's Loving and kind. I mean, I just you know,

39:16

I'm just about ready to dive into the Tiber because Steve Ray and it's just the just the most glowing picture of the

39:26

Catholic I Just I just am so attracted to Rome I can't resist because on that website the water is pretty shallow in that Tiber Trust me.

39:40

I've I've actually crossed the Tiber. It's a stinky Green River and there's just nothing overly exciting about it

39:45

I've been there done that aided McDonald's about a mile away. It was great but anyway

39:52

What's really funny to me is, you know, you have this you have this statement, you know, it's it's it's

39:58

They're a waste of time and you know where this article is. It's This is so ironic it is directly above Baptist at Council of Nicaea where he links for some unknown reason to a decade old oft refuted the

40:19

Example of why pop Catholic apologists should be absolutely should hang their heads in shame

40:25

Hit piece that Patrick Madrid did on my what happened at the Council of Nicaea article in the CRI journal

40:30

So is he really just ignoring me no, he's not but when he gets challenged and Documentations provide that he does not know what he's talking about.

40:43

All of a sudden he wants to soar with the Eagles Rather than respond to the crows

40:49

It is it is truly rather Funny to to observe all

40:56

Steve and I will get back to taking Steve's PDF apart I mean, it just takes time it took doesn't take it doesn't take long to cobble together

41:05

You know sort of like Phil Provoznik. I mentioned Provoznik on the blog He he tried to go into that comm box and do his normal Well, I reviewed him on this and I reviewed him on that and of course, you know

41:17

At least Steve Ray goes out and does something, you know Phil Provoznik just runs around repeating the same

41:22

URLs all the time a little bit like Dave Armstrong and And I've lost all all respect for Provoznik whatsoever

41:28

You know, we tried to talk to him once many moons ago and try to be nice to him but I just find him extremely annoying any longer and And I you know, once again challenged him to call into this program and defend himself, but he won't he can't he knows it

41:42

You know He makes these claims and then runs and hides behind a keyboard and and it's just it's sad to see folks

41:48

I'm not sure how they how they look themselves in the mirror in the morning. I could not possibly live that way but I did make a comment about Two two and a half when was when was

42:01

Robertson Janice on the white horse in is? Algo and Shannon and channel because if I'll go now goes not in channel.

42:07

Well, see if I was in channel Or is he is he opt is that? Yep. No, he's not there.

42:13

If I'll go is in channel blue mode says it was two weeks ago Okay, so about about two weeks ago Someone called as I recall.

42:20

I didn't bring it up But a guy called up asked if I had heard Some Janice on with Horton on the white horse in and I said, no,

42:28

I did not hear it and I said I had found it rather odd that they had chosen to have

42:34

Bob's and Janice as the We only need

42:41

I'll go for long -term memory issues Yes Indeed that's that's scary.

42:47

But anyway He'll hear this and he'll be patting himself on the back and the thing is he'll hear this three or four or five times

42:54

And that's why he'll remember it. He is the very essence of repetition as the mother of memory, but anyway,

43:02

I Made a comment to the caller and I said I didn't understand why they had some

43:08

Janice on because his Orthodox Credentials are questionable what

43:14

I was referring to is the fact and Bob's and Janice admits this that there are a lot of Roman Catholic apologists that don't like Bob's and Janice and I've read some stuff from Bob's and Janice.

43:27

It just makes my my toes curl In regards to Jews and then put

43:33

Jews in quotes. I think there's supposed to be a difference between two I'm not really sure I haven't invested the time to try to figure out

43:39

What all the issues are between some Janice and a lot of men who used to be his right -hand guys

43:45

I mean they used to be in his own ministry Or a postulate as they generally use the term

43:51

And I see stuff on on blogs all the time from well -known

43:59

EWTN style Catholic apologists just shredding Bob's and Janice and his jail centrism and his

44:08

His views on the Jews have caused him to be an exceptionally

44:16

Controversial person amongst Roman Catholics and for a long time I have had various Roman Catholics with whom

44:23

I've been in contact Saying that anything you do with Bob's and Janice is a waste of time because he does not represent the viewpoint of the

44:31

Vatican he does not represent the viewpoint of Orthodox Roman Catholicism blah blah blah blah blah well you ask with you folks

44:38

I Don't have a whole lot of interest in getting into The fights between Roman Catholic apologists as to who's

44:47

Orthodox and who's not because you know I've seen some I've seen Scott Hahn state say stuff that just makes me go. Yeah, what and You know

44:55

I saw us and Jenna say something about this two covenant view Where the

45:02

Jews get to have one covenants okay for them, and then the new covenants for everybody else, and that's so biblically ridiculous

45:07

It's really hard to even begin anyone believe anybody could do that, but then again There's all sorts of stuff that Rome says that's pretty biblically difficult to believe in The whole idea of the

45:16

Muslims adoring the same God that we do and all the all the mental gymnastics and mind numbing things

45:22

That people go through to try to get around what that obviously means what it obviously says

45:28

Is is just sad to watch people who are willing to do that kind of stuff So but anyways

45:35

I made that comment and and the comment was meant Solely within the context of Roman Catholicism there are people within Roman Catholicism who question his orthodoxy, okay?

45:45

well Bob wrote to me and Basically said so what did you mean by that and so I told him

45:53

I said well Bob I'm sorry, but I'm not the first one to have made reference to these things and I Honestly do not have any interest in Spending any time whatsoever in doing that most of you know that that I have embarked on a very major study of a completely different area of World religions and that is in reference to Islam, and there is much to be learned there

46:15

And so I just I just don't have any interest in it all I was saying was there

46:21

He's got a lot of opponents, and they're the ones who have the bully pulpit they're the ones who are on EWTN, and I don't see him on there any longer and So I was wondering

46:33

What white horse in was doing I my assumption all along has been well they had contact with him before I?

46:39

Wonder if either of the two gentlemen that Bob so Janice Debated with against the folks at white horse in which would be

46:46

Patrick Madrid and this other fellow that I had never heard of before never heard of since I wonder if any of them would have anything to do with Patrick with with Robertson Janice.

46:56

I don't know Honest, I'll admit it. I don't know I doubt it because I don't see it happening and You know there was the there was a period of time where some

47:08

Janice and Maddix We're sort of teaming up, and we know where Maddix has ended up and that has only added to the argumentation that people have made that that's in Genesis You know outside the fold in essence, but you know what

47:24

I have no interest in Joining Orthodox quote -unquote

47:30

Orthodox Roman Catholic apologists or the pop pop apologists going after non pop apologists

47:35

I have no interest in aiding and abetting either side and so I Did I'll be quite honest with you his some his emails to me were irenic

47:48

They were not In any way mean or nasty and even when

47:53

I wrote back and said Bob would put me on us with you It's not my fight. I was just reflecting what

47:59

I've seen I learned a long time ago that when someone writes to you nicely once and You write back to them.

48:08

It's the second one that tells you much more about their mindset than the first one Okay the second ones get tell you much more than the first one and the second one was ironic, too

48:18

So I felt it was appropriate that I should at least point out that while obviously I do not even begin to agree with Robertson genus on a vast ocean of logical beliefs at least

48:33

When he wrote to ask what I meant You know he didn't say well. No you're wrong. They're not attacking

48:38

Actually most of his response was you better believe they're attacking me, but here's why and here are the issues and so on and so forth so I Sorry Bob and and Steve and All the other people you know

49:00

Jimmy and Patrick and Scott and all those wonderful pop apologists But the fact the matter is guys you are not united and Every time you do that you will do the

49:13

Steve Ray lie thing about 33 ,000 nominations I mean, it's just a lie. I haven't seen that from him since we documented it.

49:21

I wonder if that'll stay that way but whenever you do the If you have the

49:27

Bible only you're gonna have all these divisions argument You know you sort of you sort of need to look in your own backyard

49:36

Because as I look at modern Roman Catholicism. You know there was a day When you could figure out what the papacy was saying they're pretty that's pretty straightforward

49:46

I mean you go back to papal syllabus of errors, okay? I I can at least respect them for saying what they're saying because they drew a line said this

49:55

Is what we believe now it could be complete heresy and completely wrong But at least you knew what it was

50:01

I have a real hard time with the modern Vatican because over the past hundred years they have become a reflection of a secularizing culture in Europe especially and now in the

50:16

United States And they try to keep everybody happy. I mean look at look at the pontificate of John Paul II one year you'd get some some statement that Would make the conservatives

50:27

Toes curl up, and they're like oh That's Vatican to again, and that's that's confusing little and then next year

50:35

You'd get one that makes the liberals toes curl up, and that's what it's the old

50:42

Roman Conservatives, and there's no movement here And he had to keep throwing a bone to each side to keep this not overly united group together

50:54

The viewpoints being expressed especially within the theology of Rome being very very wide and and and Contradictory and stuff like that and so Every time these folks go look at all the division

51:11

Amongst the Protestants hey well at least I'm willing to divide from somebody who's wrong. I mean when was the lie

51:18

I mean Given the massive amount of heresy from the

51:23

Roman Catholic perspective That exists within just the teaching institutions of the

51:29

Roman Catholic Church shouldn't her courts be working overtime cranking these people out

51:36

Shouldn't they any conservative Roman Catholic apologists listening to me right now is sitting there going doggone it yes

51:43

And you don't want to admit that I'm right But I am and you know I am and You know in your heart of hearts you wish that was what was going on you wish that Rome would speak with a clear voice

51:55

But you also know that she isn't Now that's why why what last year last year when when the

52:05

Pope quoted from a historical source About violence within Islam one of the first things

52:12

I said the first day that I sat behind this microphone was probably that microphone over there But the first day

52:17

I sat behind this microphone after you said is don't you dare apologize don't you dare compromise well of course

52:24

He he did he apologized For reading a historical source it was true You know so I can appreciate when it when you know what everything that the

52:35

Pope says isn't false just because he's the Pope If the Pope looks at his watch and says it's noon, and it's noon.

52:41

Well. It's noon That's true. Not because he's infallible either It just happens to be the case and when the

52:48

Pope says there's only one true God well the Pope is right not because he's the Pope, but because there's only one true

52:53

God see and So I'm not one of those folks. It's just you know every single thing

52:58

He says you know I didn't jump on the bandwagon when there were certain

53:04

Latin phrases the Pope use it can be interpreted one way or the other way about evolution and stuff like that you know

53:09

There's there's no reason to get into all that stuff you there's plenty of reason to say that Roman Catholicism is a false religion that destroys the soul

53:21

But the problem is a lot of folks get tired of hearing the same old things over and over again Yeah, I know mass perpetuatory sacrifice doesn't really perfect anybody can we get something new?

53:33

Hey, if that's not enough for you, then you and I aren't on the same page anyways If you've got to come up with new things to be excited about We're not we're not even close to be on the same page

53:46

You're not going to find me to be interesting for a long period of time at all I remember and richly remember this

53:55

We we were up in Salt Lake City back before certain people showed up and ruined that outreach when you actually could accomplish things and We had just done a program with a

54:06

Longtime LDS nemesis Van Hale on KTK K radio up in Salt Lake City, and we're standing out in the offices before we left and Van Hale made a comment to us, and he said something along the lines of well

54:21

You know one things for certain you guys are saying the same things now. You were saying when I first encountered you

54:28

And for a lot of folks that would be a bad thing that would be who boy you better come up with something new

54:34

You better you better update your your resume, you know come up with some new arguments, but I took that as a tremendous

54:44

Compliment I took that as a tremendous comment because they see in those intervening out Oh, but that time was about ten years at least

54:50

All sorts of movements had come and gone you know the white salamander letter had come out and there were thumbs stuff you could jump on on a bandwagon and and You could have you know

55:02

Followed the trends Well, we didn't Because what Mormons need to hear about is about an unchanging

55:08

God who is their creator not and a Jesus? who's not their spirit brother, but truly divine and Unchanging and that the gospel is not that men can become gods if the

55:19

God became a man the person of Christ Jesus that's what they need to hear that doesn't change over time and You might get a bigger audience

55:27

But you know what that audience is always gonna be changing because they're always looking for a better show and eventually you start aging and and Not be you're not quite as fast as you used to be and they'll move on to the next show

55:39

I guess so we've just never never believed that it was appropriate at all to To change our viewpoints,

55:50

I just noticed that summers in In channel, and she just said dad doesn't know who

55:55

Van Halen is Yes, actually I grew up When Van Halen was was popular dear?

56:04

I do know who Van Halen is but Van Hale is not Van Halen. I have never seen

56:09

Van Hale playing a guitar But he does carry a box of notecards

56:15

With his various arguments, and I think I was one of the first persons to ever truly go toe -to -toe with him in fact

56:22

Remember where that was was on the Tom like his show If you want to if you want to struggle to have a meaningful theological conversation

56:33

Do it on the Tom like a show Wow there was that was a that That was a that was an experience,

56:45

I'll never forget We did two shows almost back -to -back. They were there two different days of a back -to -back one was on KFL are the family life radio station here in Phoenix and And was

56:57

George Channer the I know he was there but I don't remember that he was the host that program and then Tom like us on KFYI and it was

57:05

KFYI first and then careful our next day and I Honestly don't think van had ever run into Anybody like me

57:15

I did not back down I went after him and he started pulling out early church father stuff and I was in church history and seminary at the time, so I had stuff just on the tip of my tongue and He like I said he had just never

57:30

Never encounter anything like that at all so it was quite the experience and that that started the the conversations between us, but I'll never forget those those encounter.

57:41

I think we still have them someplace I think we still have them in fact do we make them available there the mp3s? seriously

57:49

Number 406 oh Man, how old was I then I would have to have been in my early 20s

57:57

Yeah, so those are those are over those over 20 years old now Well y 'all y 'all get a chance to Listen to that number 406 and is that at mp3 number and CDs CD and mp3 number 406 is

58:15

Available well, I thought that so by now that the music would be playing and and Things like I think that that's why we're speaking more slowly

58:29

See I have to rewire everything once we bring the Skype thing in and that's mess and everything oh

58:35

It's Skype's fault. So error exists between Skype and keyboard is that?

58:43

I Just love being a professional broadcaster. It's so much fun You know

58:49

I was actually gonna be invited to be you know Call a host for Rush Limbaugh, then they listen to us and said man.

58:56

Don't think so That's it. That's a rumor. It's not true. I made that up as we were going along.

59:02

Hey anyway We'll be back Tuesday morning with another Foray into broadcast breakdown

59:13

Here are the dividing line. Thanks for being with us. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 nine seven three four six zero two or write us at p .o.

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Box three seven one zero six, Phoenix Arizona eight five zero six nine you can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

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That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks