Sam Gipp Versus the KJV Translators, Mormonism Review Including the Book of Abraham

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:32

And greetings welcome to the dividing line James White along with you of course we have Prescott's most famous Frenchman running all of the technical stuff just across the room making faces doing other things to Cause problems, but you all never see that and so you believe all this

00:51

Stuff about how I mean and stuff like that. That's okay. It's just part of the part of life

00:57

I have to live today. We are going to continue Last week's discussion of Mormonism.

01:04

I've got one little brief thing to do at the beginning But then I wanted to mention we're gonna be doing three programs this week

01:11

Well, I'm gonna be doing any more than that, but three dividing lines I have just really majorly over committed myself right before I'm heading out

01:22

Once again, I'm not sure how I did this, but that's January. I guess that's sort of how it worked out anyway

01:30

Tomorrow we got Radio Free Geneva and I am going to be Responding to some material by dr.

01:38

Allen in the new big There I guess they're really into doing big books.

01:45

You could it could have been much smaller. It could have been typeset It's fairly it's nice large print. So for us older folks, it's very nice, but I Get the feeling it's meant to you know, say something about we're big

01:59

I Will try to remember I had actually looked it up and maybe Maybe I did tweet it.

02:05

I don't remember but I I will try to post Try to remember to post I will probably forget The URL to I'm not sure what we did, but I think we took a section of the dividing line and Posted it separately from regular dividing line

02:24

About I don't know two years ago When Dr.

02:31

Allen's book on you extend the Atonement came out There were two books that I had on my

02:40

On the desk when I was responding to it and we Dr.

02:45

Allen had written a article in response to me on Romans 8 we

02:52

Looked at all the published material the article the books we went through everything and we

03:01

Demonstrated that the position being presented by the provisionist Is an

03:08

Isagetical one. He had tried to go into various commentaries. We We went to all the commentaries.

03:14

We went we we went deep in And providing a response. Well, here's this new book

03:20

Calvinism a biblical and theological critique edited by David Allen and Stephen Lemke There isn't anything really new in it.

03:27

It's it's just the provisionist thing going on there but once again the issue of Romans 8 there is a a brief section on it and So we're going to respond to that and demonstrate yet once again

03:44

One side can do exegesis and present their theology from the page of Scripture the other side the best they can do is go

03:51

Nope doesn't mean that well, what does it mean? But what doesn't mean that but what does it mean? And we never we've seen this over and over again with Layton flowers with David Allen.

04:00

They'll say it can't mean that But they can't give you a positive exegetical presentation and that's why provisionism will always

04:10

Be well what it is right now So we'll do a radio free Geneva on that and We will throw in there the

04:19

Frank Turek video With Layton flowers where Frank basically says I just think a lot of you know, these

04:26

Calvinists are our brothers I just don't think they've really thought through what they believe and he holds up Chosen but free by Norman Geisler.

04:33

So it's sort of like alright, we'll comment briefly on that and Then on Thursday in a morning

04:41

Morning for us program will be early afternoon for people on the East Coast, I guess

04:47

I want to talk about Andy Stanley's new unhitching from the new test because once you you know, once you unhitch from the old eventually you're probably gonna unhitch from the new too and That's that's what he's done.

05:05

And so we will we will take a look at that and and respond to that Thursday as well and then on Friday morning,

05:14

I'm recording a sort of s -dialogue with with Doug Wilson that will probably be available the week after that and Like I said, we've got a we'll have a debate going on that I think we live -streamed a week

05:31

From this coming Friday Yes a week from this coming Friday Oscar Dunlap a deacon at our church

05:38

Gabe wrench from up in Moscow It's coming down. I'm moderating Hmm it's all

05:46

I'm gonna say, um, it should be interesting Gabe will never be the same.

05:51

Let's just put it that way That'll be a week from Friday and then don't forget Coming up on my trips,

05:59

I've got two two debates and Both I've heard the second one's gonna be live -streamed as well.

06:05

I'm not sure about that Verified that but they both they both may be available in that way

06:12

One of them, of course is there in Houston where we had the same location Lutheran Church there in Houston where we had the debate on Molinism last year or the year before last one or two and I was last year early last year and Then there's going to be a debate on the 24th of February.

06:32

I hope to be in attendance up in Salt Lake City and it's going to be

06:40

Zach Lautenschlager who is a Member of the OPC Church up there in in Salt Lake City And my son -in -law

06:52

Eric something Jaeger. Yeah. Yeah, Eric. I just got to try to remember these things What's his name?

06:59

Yeah, you know married my daughter and yeah, and They're gonna be debating who is in the

07:07

New Covenant So it's it's not specifically on baptism, but it it is but it's on a more basic issue related to that subject and That will be on the 24th in Salt Lake City I don't know whether I'll be able to get there or not for the simple reason that I will be hot -footing it across the

07:27

United States from Tennessee With my fifth wheel and hence what what will determine whether I can be in Salt Lake City or not the weather

07:40

If there is a you know, big old blizzard snowstorm Blowing through it would not be wise to turn north

07:49

It would be much wiser for me to cancel all my reservations and head south young man to try to get back.

07:56

So I'm certainly hoping to be there, but we'll we'll see what's gonna happen there So lots of stuff lots and lots of lots of stuff going on.

08:03

So we want to get back to Mormonism, but first I Saw this bad preacher clips bad sermons.

08:10

Is that what it is? Is that bad sermons? I Think this was bad sermons actually

08:18

Bad something on Twitter These these poor guys, you know, I I often say

08:24

I listen to the heretics you don't have to but they listen to the really bad fundamentalists Really?

08:33

Bad sermons, uh -huh. There's bad preacher clip.

08:39

Okay. Okay Um Rich and I were both commenting on the fact that Sam Gipps still looks like Sam Gipp did and in 1995 on the

08:53

John Ankerberg show actually, his hair was dark back then so there there has been some change, but Rich is fairly certain.

09:02

That's the same suit and tie. He was wearing in 1995 Which would be great if he's can wear the same suit.

09:09

That's that's super anyway Those of you who haven't for those of you who aren't algo

09:18

Yeah, those of you who aren't algo Sam Gipp is a

09:24

King James onlyest He was one of the four people that we took on or was three people

09:31

Yeah, maybe only three people that we took on on the John Ankerberg show in 1995

09:38

Which I think is available on YouTube, I think Yeah, anyway and He's the one that sent me the coloring book and crayons and He had done a little

09:54

Fairly well -made little series promoting King James onlyism. I don't know about five six years ago, and I responded to each episode and Demonstrated why their arguments as normal are completely vacuous and circular and incoherent and all those types of things.

10:09

It's a familiar church here If you've seen this background before the the the guy that The I think the

10:19

Korean guy who just goes crazy nuts. There's a video. It's the camera is farther over to this side

10:27

But that's where he was doing the Gale Rippling or Wackadoodle stuff and came running up to the camera.

10:34

I mean, it's just really weird. So this is a well -known Haven of King James only wacko ism and So this this clip was was posted and I just I wanted to play it

10:48

Just so we we can get a sense of just how weird King James only ism

10:56

Can become how the cultic type of King James only ism and and here you have a good example of it so let's let's listen to old

11:04

Sam Gipp here and And Then respond to what he has to say And and and here's what

11:11

I say guys in this. Well, how do you know which one to choose? You don't have to Remember this statement all question of proper translation and didn't 1611

11:22

In other words, if there are six ways you can be translated 25 ways you can be translated doesn't matter all question proper translation and didn't 1611 so I Was I was talking to Daniel last night about this and I Was teaching in a

11:40

Bible conference Probably about 20 years ago 25 years ago and and this pastor who was a good man by believer, but he would use a

11:48

Greek And he came up to me after I got done teaching and I don't call him any names, you know

11:54

And he said and this was his description He said when the King James translators came to any word guys anywhere doesn't matter in a fair or anything else

12:02

He said when they came to a word and They had a crisis They had maybe six seven ways.

12:09

It could be translated. Their crisis was which one do we put down and He said when they put a word down when they made that decision

12:17

They ended that crisis. I said well He said when

12:22

I go back to the Greek I reopen that crisis, don't I? Well, I'd never heard described that way.

12:28

I said, yeah, and I'm telling you I never seen a man get more solemn in my life. He said I will never do it again

12:35

Pretty good. I Will never do it again. I will never do it again.

12:40

He said now what I want you to understand What he just said was that every single issue of translation every single choice of translation was

12:57

Dealt with and the answers given to us in 1611 when the publication of King James Version of Bible there is this is your standard

13:10

Second inspiration Perspective the King James is inspired. It's perfect in and of itself and it was a it was a new inspiration.

13:18

It was That's why they can't show you the King James prior to 1611 it was it was a new inspiration that that takes place because This is saying there can be no improvement.

13:34

Now. Everyone needs to understand a couple things. First of all Every single one of the King James translators would laugh either laugh with hilarity

13:44

Or would agree to the burning or the drowning of Sam Gibb As a as a obviously heretical nutcase

13:54

Anabaptist Every single one of them would just go you have got to be kidding us

14:00

Not not no King James translator believed anything like this They never expressed anything near it.

14:06

And in fact, they express the exact opposite of it It is very plain from their own writings that they recognized that Well the very fact that they provided marginal translations

14:18

Demonstrates that this whole thing. Well, who's this? There's no reason to read the Greek Just gotta look at what the

14:24

King James did the King James translators go we put the alternate readings in the margin you moron

14:29

What do you? What are you talking about? It is Astonishingly absurd to believe this kind of stuff.

14:38

It is a historical irrational and Yet these guys are still running around, you know, it's been

14:46

We're coming up on 30 years since Yeah 28 years ago was when we did the the

14:56

John Ankerberg show and Just demonstrated over and over and over and over and over again

15:01

How utterly incoherent this this whole movement is but it's they're still out there

15:06

Peddling their wares and selling their books and and doing stuff like that the idea that Well, you know there's six different ways to translate this

15:17

Greek word and there's no reason to even bother learning that language any longer because We have the 1611

15:25

That of course was the exact argument in regards to the Vulgate. That was the exact argument in regards to the

15:30

Greek Septuagint That these men would never accept those arguments, but then they turn around and make them again

15:36

King James only ism is utterly a historical it it

15:42

Because the fact that it uses one set of standards for the King James and another set of standards for everything else They don't have to worry about whether their their assertions make mincemeat out of history

15:53

Or mean that there were all sorts of other Versions of the Bible that we should still be using today that we don't

16:00

Because you could make much better arguments for them You can make a much better argument for the Vulgate than you can for the King James 1100 stinking years

16:07

That's a long time to be the standard, right? King James not nearly that long

16:14

There's they're so disconnected from history or when they try to pretend to do something in this history.

16:20

They they they just Destroy it so badly and use such horrific standards of historiography.

16:26

It's just Unbelievable the things that they they do but you just need to need to hear what's being said there

16:34

Here's a here's a pastor who's learned Greek. I'll never do that again. I don't know if that conversation ever took place

16:40

You know a lot of these sermon illustrations But the reality is

16:48

Let me just give you one example and I was I was gonna pull it up but I felt it was more important to have this stuff ready for Mormonism than just this illustration, but And I've talked about this many times before.

17:00

I remember many many many many moons ago And I don't hear a certain thing running in the background.

17:06

All right And We had a very very very small office

17:14

And over on 16th Street South Camelback and I don't know how

17:22

I got hold of it or somebody sent it to me But I started subscribing to Dennis McKenzie's biblical errancy

17:30

McKenzie was he's dead now, but so he's not an atheist anymore, but he was an atheist then and He would mimeograph those of you don't remember the smell of mimeographed copies

17:43

You were not my age in a in a Baptist Church Well, actually for some reason his was brown

17:51

I'm not sure why his was different color. But yeah, normally was purple colored ink stuff

17:58

Anyway, he would put out three pages back both sides. So total of six pages

18:04

Each month he would put out a newsletter with errors in the Bible biblical errancy and I remember one of the

18:14

Key examples that I used in refuting him and we had him on the program

18:20

We actually got him on the dividing line in an atheism series. We did again sometime in the mid -to -late 1980s

18:31

And His assertion was he took a section from Matthew took a verse from Matthew Where Jesus says you shall not kill

18:43

And Then he has the section from Paul and it's you shall not murder now it could have been reversed, but I think

18:49

I think it was kill in Matthew murder in Paul and He's quoting from the

18:57

King James Version of the Bible The the problem is when you go to the original language, it's oof on you size in both places the exact same

19:06

Greek The King James translated differently in one place murder one place kill the murder and kill are not necessarily synonymous

19:16

There they have different semantic domains. They overlap at some point, but they they do have different semantic domains and So it's it's easy once you understand

19:28

Bible translation the history of the Bible and when you understand the history of the King James Version of the

19:33

Bible itself The committee that translated the Gospels is not the committee that translated

19:39

Paul So you had multiple committees that had different Responsibilities and there wasn't you know today you may have similar things to that But then you'll have a final committee at the end

19:53

That will try to catch stuff like this where you've got the identical Greek phrase being translated in different ways and there's no reason in the context that that be the case and so it was just simply

20:07

Something that King James translators and editors missed that they would render it in two different ways when there's nothing in the context to indicate why you're why you're doing that and So, you know,

20:18

I could easily Respond to people like Sam Gipp. Well, here's a guy that guy might have died and gone to hell because the

20:25

King James Version of the Bible you know this this kind of stuff their books are filled with it and Sam Gipp may send

20:37

Coloring books and crayons to to other people as he likes to do but I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you it's his position

20:44

That is best written in crayon Because it does not have any lasting staying power to it at all now having

20:53

Looked at that. Let's get to the important stuff because we

21:00

Discussed on the program last time Mormonism and what happened was rich and I started reminiscing and We haven't gotten the rocking chairs yet, though I'm pretty close to bringing a couple of those in and and setting them up up here and rich and I can put some nice comfy pillows on them and Just start reminiscing about well, it's it's 2023.

21:27

It's 40 years for Alphanumeric Ministries we can we can sit around and reminisce about About a bunch of guys pushing a gold volks 74

21:40

Sun Beetle around the parking lot of Motel 6 in downtown

21:45

Salt Lake City to get it to try to get started because The starter went out And then

21:52

I drove it all the way to Northern, California without ever stopping it Yeah, yeah, everybody's all y 'all y 'all just do this for the money

22:07

And That was when I went up to Golden Gate and I was I was looking at going to Golden Gate and That's also the same weekend that Kelly and I realized that I went.

22:20

Uh -oh. I Think you're pregnant. She's like what? And they had just believe me.

22:27

This is how long goes that they had just come out with pregnancy tests They back and back back in the olden olden days.

22:33

You had to go to a doctor What was the old phrase they used to did the rabbit die something like that I think I was you know, there was had something to do with a rabbit.

22:40

I have no idea what what that was all about but They they had just come out with pregnancy tests.

22:46

You could buy at a drugstore and this would been 85 Yeah, 85 late 85 probably in October and Got that pregnancy test and yep, that's why

23:00

I didn't end up at Golden Gate was There came there came Josh so anyway

23:08

There that was a long long long long long long long time ago We started telling all those stories But now we need to get to what

23:14

I promised to do and that is to look at some of the biblical texts I mentioned to you last time

23:21

I still don't hear anything. Oh, oh You talk and I'll be you'll be right back.

23:29

Okay. I'll try to remember to say something while you're gone Anyway Trying to get the fan going up above the we've got these lights start getting you just a tad bit on the toasty side fairly quickly and for some reason the

23:43

Our normal way of getting things going isn't working. I mentioned to you last time There is something called the 100 verse memorization system on our website that you can

23:55

Read and download for yourself. It'll give you far more verses that I have time to deal with here and the important part is

24:02

Just like letters to a Mormon elder. It gives you the context that is so Massively important.

24:09

I don't care what verse we're looking at When you you know, you know people ask me they'll go how is it that when you're out in Mesa or you're out in Salt Lake City, you're having these conversations and You seem to be in control of the conversation you seem to direct it where you want to go you

24:29

People don't the rest of us struggle to keep the conversation going the same direction and part of it, honestly is a knowing what they believe better than they know it really really does help but Mainly, it's when you when you do present biblical texts

24:48

You are presenting them within a context you're saying now, you know

24:56

If I was talking with the Jehovah's Witness And I would I want to go to John chapter 17

25:02

I wanted to deal with verses 3 through 5 when you put it in the context, you know we're looking at our Lord's high priestly prayer and This is really the

25:10

Lord's Prayer and this is this is right at the end You know We had we had his public ministry ends in in chapter 12 chapters 13 14 15 16 and 17 have been his

25:20

Private ministry to the disciples and now right at the end you have this tremendous interaction between the

25:25

Father and the Son by Providing that context

25:34

You you really you cause people to hesitate To interrupt and throw other things in because they weren't aware of what you're currently saying

25:45

Or they are able to determine by the way, you're saying it that this isn't just something that you've memorized off of a card someplace

25:54

That what you're telling them from John chapter 17 actually has meaning to you and you you're familiar with it in its context and things like That so the hundred verse memorization system.

26:04

I highly recommend it to you Look it up at a omen org and grab that then

26:12

In speaking with Mormons You're going to be looking especially at The trial the false gods and Isaiah 40 through 48 now

26:28

People who've gone to BYU if you've ever watched the Debate that wasn't really debate, but the discussion that took place on Apology Radio about I don't know three years ago four years ago with a

26:44

Young Non -representative Mormon fellow Kwaku was his name.

26:52

I think he's still sort of Mormon He's gone off into some wild stuff.

26:58

There's no two ways about it, but That would give you a good idea of what people are gonna get they go to BYU Oh This was standard language back then all the different gods said that they're the only two gods in it you know all the rest of this kind of stuff and all meant to Try to in some way shape or form rescue the horrifically polytheistic system of Mormonism because When you understand what

27:29

Mormonism What Mormonism developed into now it it is true that There was a period of development after Joseph Smith.

27:41

There had to be If I've said many times if Joseph Smith Had not been murdered in a

27:49

Carthage jail in 1844 if he had been given only two more years there'd be no

27:55

Mormonism today There would be no Mormon Church. Why? his

28:01

Beliefs were changing so fast so radically That no one would have been able to make heads or tails out of him in just two more years

28:12

I really really really do believe that I Believe that the men who murdered and he was murdered he well, yeah, he was shooting back, but he still was murdered

28:20

He was in a jail cell. It's not exactly a fair fight but he did shoot back and He he at that point in time

28:35

He had moved from an ignorant Trinitarian monotheism

28:42

With shades of modalism like many Christians today have Into a radical polytheism and That's why you have such difference between the

28:54

Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price this is evolution taking place during Joseph Smith's own lifetime and If that evolution had had continued

29:08

There would there would be no Mormonism. So what Mormon apologists have to do today is they have to try to find some mechanism of Defending Joseph Smith or like some

29:20

Mormons the some Mormons are just adopting a view of prophethood now That is so wildly wacky for some reason.

29:27

It's still not running. It stopped the fans not him And so They will try to try to get around these texts by saying well

29:41

Yeah, you know, but Isaiah didn't you know, these passages in Isaiah weren't meant to be taken

29:48

To the extreme you're taking them and things like that. Well, let's look at just a few We only have so much time today.

29:53

Let's look at such a few that you'd want to be looking at Like I said, what I would what

29:59

I would do, but I would highly recommend to you Is to just read through Isaiah 40 through 48

30:08

There's a paper on the website Titled Doctrine of God and Isaiah 40 to 48.

30:16

I think is what it's called and That's again a seminary paper from long long ago and Just see the repetitiveness of The fact that God is bringing the idols

30:35

Into the court of law and he's saying He's putting them on trial

30:41

And that's why he can say for example in Isaiah 43. You are my witnesses Declares Yahweh to Israel.

30:48

You are my witness. So he calls Israel as a witness That he is the only true God and by bringing accusation against them

30:57

By bringing accusation against them. What's fascinating about this section is it? Reveals to us

31:05

Certain aspects of God's character and being through the negation of The false

31:13

God so so one of the constant challenges is tell us what's gonna happen future

31:19

Tell us what's gonna happen in the future. The idols can't do that They don't know the future because they are not the the creator who made all things

31:29

Not only that they can't speak either so that's that's sort of a problem as well But tell us what happened the future tell us what happened in the past and why it happened

31:38

Do something What you find Isaiah 40 to 48 Well, for example,

31:43

Isaiah 40 21 Happens to be on the screen right now. So do you not know have you not heard?

31:49

Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?

31:54

That's interesting There you have an assertion that What the author is gonna be talking about here is

32:04

Revealed In creation from the foundations of the earth

32:10

It is he who inhabits above the circle of the earth and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers

32:16

It is he who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to inhabit It is he who reduces rulers to nothing who makes the judges the earth utterly formless

32:25

Scarcely have they been planted scarcely had they been sown scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth But he merely blows on them and they wither and the storm carries him away like some stubble

32:34

To whom then will you liken me that I would be his equal says the Holy One Lift up your eyes on high and see who has created these stars one who leads forth their hosts by number calls them all by name because the greatness of his vigor and of the strength of his power not one of them is missing and so Then you have these assertion being made about God's grandeur and then it's applied

32:59

Why do you say Oh Jacob and assert? Oh Israel, my way is hidden from Yahweh and the justice do me passes by my

33:06

God Do you not know have you not heard the everlasting God Yahweh the creator of the ends of the earth does not become tired

33:13

We're retired. His understanding is unsearchable. So There is there is

33:20

Application direct application being made and That is Israel saying well, we're not gonna we're not gonna be punished for our sins

33:26

But did you not know that the everlasting God Yahweh the creator the ends of the earth does not become we're you're tired now

33:34

The the the Mormon commitment of the King James is not nearly as strong as it once was

33:42

It's still the default but I'm encountering more and more Mormons that are using other translations and fascinatingly this is one of my great disappointments about early 2020 is we were supposed to have a conversation with a

33:59

Mormon scholar that has done his own translation in the New Testament. It's a very good translation of the New Testament But he's not using the same textual basis as the

34:08

King James That raises all sorts of fascinating questions. It really really does and I'd still like to have that conversation someday but I'm reading from the

34:21

Legacy Standard Bible here and so if you're following along in the

34:26

NIV NASB New King James, whatever I Kept saying Yahweh and you're seeing

34:31

Lord, but the O and the R they are in capital forms. There's smaller font but capital form The the

34:41

Mormons do tend to use the Old English phrase Jehovah of These places my recollection

34:49

Oh Remember this quad My recollection is that in the

34:57

Bible Dictionary? Let me see on page where this would be interesting if I actually remember this 666 667 pretty close 667

35:26

The name Jehovah appears in the in the material

35:34

And it says the covenant a proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the unchangeable one the eternal I am the original pronunciation

35:40

This name has possibly been lost as the Jews in reading never mentioned it but substitute one of the other names of God Usually Adonai probably it was pronounced

35:49

Java or Yahweh in the KJV The Jewish custom has been followed and the name is generally denoted by Lord or God printed in small capitals

35:57

So why do I mention this to you? Well, then it goes on to say Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ who came to earth being born of Mary.

36:05

Well the identification of Jehovah and Jesus is a later development in Mormon theology, but the reason

36:13

I mentioned that is It is important To be able to recognize when the name

36:20

Yahweh or Jehovah is being used. So you need to know that LORD and Or if it's in GOD in all capitals normally

36:28

Lord God Yahweh Elohim and Their own Bible will substantiate your explanation of that So if someone's going well,

36:38

I'm not sure that's really what what what's there you can take them Just remember page 666 and go one page over That's why

36:47

I remembered it was that that's that's how it was Which would also work it was on page 617 if you know about the text of variant

36:53

Romans 1318 But we won't get into that right now so anyway just just you know, it's it's always helpful to use their material if they're standing there with a quad and you can turn to page 667 and show them the name

37:08

Jehovah and how that's found and and Hence be able to show them in texts like Deuteronomy 435 that Jehovah he is

37:18

Elohim There is no God besides him in Mormon theology as it developed later.

37:24

This wasn't Joseph Smith's view But it is officially defined by the church.

37:29

I think in Was that 1901 was the first presidency statement in 1911?

37:35

I think was 1901 But I'm not sure I need to look that that up again There was a statement by the first presidency 1901,

37:42

I think Where they specifically laid out what you just what

37:47

I just read to you there and that is Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Joseph Smith hadn't done that Joseph Smith Had not made that distinction, but it's a distinction develops in Mormonism at a later point

38:01

And you will run into a lot of Mormons don't even know that That's why being able to open their own

38:06

Bible and show that to him might be of assistance Point being as I have been reading here says the

38:13

Everlasting God Yahweh the creator of the ends of the earth King James is gonna say the

38:19

Everlasting God the Lord the creator of the ends of the earth because they don't translate the Tetragrammaton They just follow the

38:25

Jewish custom And in essence hide the divine name So it's important to recognize that because in Mormonism especially if you're talking to a temple

38:34

Mormon that if they've been through the temple they have watched as In the presentations if in Salt Lake City, which is of course closed right now because place almost fell over during earthquake number of years ago

38:49

Actors would act this out and in all the rest of the temples that's done on video Elohim and Jehovah are separate distinct physical individuals

39:00

Elohim is the father Jehovah is the son Elohim sends Jehovah and Michael down to organize the earth

39:07

So you see three beings you three see three physical personages and one sends the other two down That's a that's a major major problem in Isaiah and why is that a major problem in Isaiah?

39:23

Well Some reason. Oh, okay. There it is Well, let me let me show you a few.

39:29

Of course. This is the one that's the best best known Most people when witnessing the

39:35

Mormons, this is one of the first verses I'll memorize This is great to memorize because it is it was one of the verses that I went through with the

39:42

Jehovah's Witnesses Last week when they came by my house Isaiah 43 10 it's one that all

39:49

Jehovah's Witnesses know and what's interesting is since I started with the Mormons I Had the end of the verse more memorized than the beginning of the verse

40:00

You're my witnesses declares Yahweh so again remember this is the court of law And my servant whom I have chosen she may know and believe me and understand that I am he before me

40:08

There is no God for him. There will be none after me and so What you what you have?

40:19

Let's let's make sure we you know, this is this would be helpful for all the people you're dealing with So For the

40:28

Mormons for the Mormons Here's your section before me.

40:35

There is no God formed and there will be none after me. I even I am Yahweh and I've got my font a little bit too large.

40:45

There is no Savior besides me, but So there is who is being identified.

40:50

It says declares Yahweh So Yahweh says before me there was no God form there will be none after me.

40:56

So There's numerous problems that causes for LDS theology because Yahweh is

41:04

Jesus and he had a God before him then again, even if it was Elohim, which is the term for God as the father

41:13

He had a God before him too Because he was a man man lived on another planet and his

41:18

God was once a man his God was once a man on back into eternity So there's real problems there

41:27

So whoever is speaking is saying before me there was no God form there will be none after me

41:33

This is absolute monotheism, but keeping that in mind

41:42

Notice what we have before that You're my witnesses declares Yahweh.

41:48

And again, here is those who are not familiar with it Yod. Hey, wow.

41:53

Hey Now um Yahweh Thus says Yahweh.

41:59

You are my witnesses and My servant whom I have chosen won't get into that today So that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he okay here is

42:11

The section of Isaiah 43 10 that is extremely important for Jehovah's Witnesses Because this is the verse they get their name from you are my witnesses declares

42:22

Jehovah in their translation So here's where Jehovah's Witnesses Comes from this very verse.

42:29

So when I talked with The Jehovah's Witnesses last week and I asked, you know, where does your where's your name come from?

42:37

They very quickly said Isaiah 43 10s. They knew So I point out to them.

42:43

Well, it's fascinating because this section here Um Over here in order that you may know and believe and understand

42:55

Hathi Ego I me Ego I me so there's Ego I me

43:02

And That is on a who in Hebrew that you may know understand that and here it is.

43:11

I am he Now don't have time to go

43:16

Through this is in the Forgotten Trinity. We've talked about many many times before this

43:24

Phrase is used in the Gospel of John in John 8 24 John 8 58 John 13 19 and John 18 5 through 6 and In John 18 5 to 6 when

43:35

Jesus says I go I me the soldiers fall back upon the ground in John 8 58 print up at on genocide

43:41

Ego I me before Abraham was I am Jews pick up stone stone him Johnny 24 unless you believe that Ego I me

43:47

I am you will die in your sins and John 13 19 in the context of prophecy

43:54

Jesus is talking about the betrayal by Judas he says I'm letting you I'm telling you this in order to me know and believe and understand that I am he and He uses the same.

44:05

I think he uses Note a and pastuse a day. I don't think he uses Sunita But he uses at least two of the three exact same verbs in John 13 19

44:16

That are used right here in the Greek Septuagint Now Jesus knew the Old Testament Scriptures, so he's quoting

44:23

Yahweh speaking and Isaiah 43 10 of himself of himself and people

44:31

Skip over it all the time because it doesn't Necessarily just jump out at you, but here is a place where G is identifying himself as Yahweh using the ego

44:42

I me language on a who in In Hebrew and it's also extremely relevant because Isaiah 43 10 just cuts the eternal out of progression in half

44:53

In Mormonism there were many many many many many many gods in the past and There will be many gods in the future

45:03

God says before me there is no God formed there will be none after me Isaiah 43 10 very very important text and One that it would be very very very wise for you to memorize because I Think you see what we just did so now we've we've skipped over a lot to get to Isaiah 43 because there's 41 42 you have the material where some of the most

45:39

Astonishing Sarcasm in all scripture is found. I don't have time to go over today, but I would just highly recommend that you you read it

45:50

Where it's the picture. I mean it is the you know rich said I could do this. Oh You know, that's it is so much easier to sit here than it is to sit on that thing

46:04

Get up on that thing. It's just so tough. And for some reason I'm just letting everybody know One of the cuboid bones in my left foot just went wacky on me

46:13

So if I also just sort of fall over it's just because something you know

46:20

Get old and stuff just goes places. It's not supposed to go I just I just got up and walked over there and it's like okay watch this

46:28

So anyway, I'll get back over there, but it's just gonna look look like look how old he's getting.

46:33

He's gonna die soon Anyways, no Um What were you doing that for no, you know,

46:41

I don't like that angle stop it I'm gonna keep going to this this camera over here.

46:47

He can do whatever he wants over there. It doesn't really really matter much. Um So and Isaiah No, I'm Still in charge here.

46:59

So oh Look at that. There we go. That's much Anyway You can zoom in if you want.

47:06

I don't care but And Isaiah 41 and 42 you have this tremendous example of the man who cuts down a tree and Then he gets all fuzzy and And I thought these cameras were supposed to be all super advanced and stuff like that so anyway cuts down a tree and With half of it he builds a fire to cook his food the other half of it

47:37

He fashions into an idol and then bows down and worships the idol as if it had provided him with his food

47:44

It is incredible sarcasm It's it's really what gives rise to the awesome section in the epistle of Diognetus mocking

47:56

Idolatry in the Roman Empire many many many years later, but it's just a universally excellent sarcasm of Idolatry and the foolishness of idolatry

48:08

So there's a lot of material in there. There's some I am sayings in there Catch all of that you go in Isaiah 43

48:17

All these things that these these texts are rich with these But then there is one that got me kicked out of the visitors center

48:28

In the Temple in Mesa, which I'm sure no longer exists. They are redoing everything.

48:35

I've redone everything over there And I'm just going to scroll to it if you don't mind because it's easier than Putting the reference in Isaiah chapter 44 verse 24

48:56

Thus says Yahweh your Redeemer and the one who formed you from the womb. I Yahweh and the maker of all things

49:03

Stretching out the heavens by myself and spreading out the earth all alone Okay, you see that I Yahweh am the maker of all things.

49:16

So there's an absolute claim of creation Stretching out the heavens by myself and spreading out the earth all alone.

49:24

Now, here's why this is particularly Weighty for Mormons, I Said earlier, especially if you're talking to a temple

49:34

Mormon That is someone who's gone through the endowment ceremony and have has watched

49:40

Because in the old in the old temples They're much bigger than the ones you have today in the old temples

49:47

You would have the garden room and the creation room and you have so you would you would go from room to room and they

49:54

Would they've painted the walls and then you have actors it would act these things out

50:00

They realized it'd be a whole lot smoother faster easier more consistent Eventually what they did is now they project on the walls and What you watch is a video

50:13

You don't have actors anymore. So you don't have to go from place to place to place it speeds everything up makes things

50:19

They've really streamlined the endowment ceremony in comparison to what it was like back in the late 1800s

50:28

And a lot of Mormons back then didn't like when they started playing with it. But anyway So they have seen

50:34

Right in front of them Portrayed Elohim who is

50:40

God the Father Sending Jehovah down in company with Michael to organize the earth

50:48

So go back to Isaiah 44 24 Stretching out this is Yahweh speaking stretching out the heavens by myself and spraying out the earth all alone was

50:57

Yahweh alone Was Jehovah alone? According to the presentation made in the

51:03

LDS temple. No He was not alone in the he was sent by a superior deity and he was not sent alone

51:14

Michael was with him Hmm So, why does Yahweh say this?

51:21

Now again, your your Mormon friend has in all likelihood Has never been confronted with this kind of information that sadly the

51:35

Normal answer to something like this I went through this one and I'm sure

51:42

I had also quoted Isaiah 45 5

51:55

I am Yahweh and there is no other besides me. There is no God I will gird you though. You've not known me that they may know from the rise and the setting of the

52:02

Sun There is no one besides me. I am Yahweh and there is no other So I went through Isaiah 43 10 44 24 45 5 to 6 and and and some others standing in the now long -lost

52:17

Arby's parking lot Um With a Mormon lady, this was early on in our ministry out there within the first four or five years and She listened and it was like But I wasn't getting any pushback

52:37

I Wasn't getting what about first Corinthians aid God's many and Lord's many and stuff like that, which is what you would normally get

52:46

And so I sort of felt like I was losing her so I'm like I sort of stopped

52:53

And I said, so do you have any response to those things this is well, they're all mistranslated and I'm like So you read

53:05

Hebrew? Oh, no, I don't read Have you read anyone that would explain how these have been these texts have been mistranslate?

53:11

No Then how do you know they've been mistranslate does it disagree with what the church teaches that Unfortunately is

53:21

One what the more the more normal response from Mormons is to simply cast aside the biblical text

53:30

Because well it contradicts what the church That's why biblical sufficiency sola scriptura

53:41

Understanding of transmission translation these issues More important in talking with Mormons and with Jehovah's Witnesses witnesses there are there are specific areas that you have to get into a certain topics, but Biblical reliability

54:02

Trustworthiness vitally important in dealing with Mormons because you know The HR look of our eighth article of faith the

54:10

Mormon Church says we believe the Bible would have got to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly That means all sorts of different things to different people

54:20

Who was it maybe you'll remember this way we'll keep rich on his toes

54:28

He's only back there Playing games on his phone and so again Someone was responding to Brigham Young They said something along the lines of I'm concerned that after I think it was one of the

54:48

Pratt brothers I'm concerned that after listening to Brother Brigham's comments that if you were to come across a

54:56

Bible laying on the ground you would not so much as pick it up And then he he went on to try to basically say that the

55:03

Bible is more accurate Than we We like to say yeah, yeah, it was it was a fascinating quote and I'm sure someone in the twitch channel will post the journal discourses article

55:18

Page page volume and page number very very quickly won't you guys yeah, right? would actually be cool to have that coat, but It is sadly the fact that that there has there is a general

55:37

Distrust of the transmission of the text of the Bible amongst Mormons not because most of them have ever done any work on the subject but because it's just part of the culture and that's also

55:50

Whenever you are going to introduce other books of Scripture you're gonna have to attack the perspicuity and reliability of the

55:58

Bible to make room for that and that's what has taken place so Here you have besides me.

56:04

There is no God I am Yahweh. There is no other these are clear blatant statements now

56:12

Since I still want to get to another one. There is One other text and I think this one is particularly useful in light of the

56:30

Attempts by modern Mormons to Use Literature from the ancient

56:38

Near East Ancient Near Eastern texts and it whenever you see a net. It's normally ancient

56:43

Near Eastern text To try to say well these are you know, this is how everybody spoke And so it's not really talking about monotheism and blah blah blah blah.

56:52

I remember I first ran into this It was just it just absolutely blew me away and I had not heard it

57:01

Ironically from anybody who was witnessing the Mormons or anything like that. I Stumbled across it.

57:08

I think in just translation work if I recall correctly But in Jeremiah chapter 10, so remember in Jeremiah you have

57:19

The the prophet and it's in that period of transition where you know

57:27

Jeremiah was warning Submit to to Babylon submit to the 70 years or worst things gonna happen and you know, it's all took place 586 587 and so then there's

57:43

The the people struggling under foreign occupation and control and So Jeremiah is warning against these gods and against idolatry so notice

58:02

Let's back up here again. Okay, who would not fear you? Oh king of the nations indeed It is your due for among all the wise men of nations and all their kingdoms

58:09

There is none like you but they altogether senseless and foolish. They are a discipline of vanities It is mere wood

58:15

Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz The work of a craftsman in the hands of a goldsmith blue and purple are their clothing

58:22

They're all the work of wise craftsmen. So hey, this sounds like Isaiah again, doesn't it?

58:28

It does if you read in Isaiah 41 42 that sarcasm Here's Jeremiah doing the exact same thing

58:37

Then Jeremiah 10 10 says but Yahweh is the true God He is the

58:43

Living God in the everlasting King. It is wrath the earthquakes and the nations cannot endure his indignation. So here you have the negative they're simply idols made by men and then the positive contrast is

58:59

Yahweh is the true God he is the Living God and the everlasting

59:05

King at his wrath the earthquakes and the nations cannot endure his indignation, so one of the things you need to notice here is

59:14

This is not like you have in many ancient Near Eastern texts where you have

59:20

Their God is the God of their nation, but not necessarily of all nations what you see in the

59:28

Proclamation of the biblical prophets is that God created all things that the

59:33

Babylonian gods came out of creation They're they're they're subject to creation but these wild crazy

59:42

Israelites say their God actually made all things and Hence is the

59:47

God of all people What a craziness is that And so he's the

59:54

Living God the everlasting King he's going to judge the nations cannot endure his indignation

01:00:01

Then verse 11 then verse 11 notice notice the Elliot LSB has this in poetic form

01:00:08

Then beginning verse 11 it goes back to standard paragraph form for prose

01:00:16

Thus you and then it goes back to poetry in verse 12 Thus you shall say to them

01:00:22

The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens It is he verse 12 who made the earth by his power who established the world by his wisdom by his understanding

01:00:33

He has stretched out the heavens so Sounds very much like Isaiah Very very much like Isaiah except for verse 11

01:00:43

And that's because though this looks just like Hebrew because that we're using the same font font

01:00:52

Verse 11 isn't in Hebrew Verse 11 is in Aramaic So it says thus you shall say to them the gods that did not make the heavens and the earth

01:01:03

Will perish from the earth and from under the heavens That is that is

01:01:10

God through his prophet Giving to his people in the language of their oppressors

01:01:19

Aramaic The very words that they are to say to those inviting them to the worship of false.

01:01:25

God Do you have the positive he established world by his own wisdom by his understanding?

01:01:31

He has stretched out the heavens He's the only true God. He's the king of all the earth But then what you are to say to the idolaters is the gods that did not make the heavens and the earth

01:01:44

Will perish from the earth and from under the heavens Why is this important?

01:01:49

Because Mormonism denies Crassio ex in helo. In fact

01:01:55

Mormonism says that God the gods Whichever God you're talking about Do not have the ability to create matter is eternal in Mormon Mormon theology and God has become

01:02:14

God by obedience to gospel rules and principles. I mentioned to you the

01:02:23

Presentation I did up in Alaska on the subject of Mormonism and At the beginning of that presentation at least

01:02:33

I hope that that presentation is out there has this We should have looked it up to double -check this.

01:02:41

I should have looked up double -check At the beginning

01:02:47

I go through A preparatory manual published by the LDS Church for their own people preparatory to being sealed for time and eternity in the temple eternal marriage ceremony and In that discussion right at the beginning of that manual you have it very plainly laid out

01:03:07

The LDS doctrine of God and that God became God by obedience to gospel ordinances and principles

01:03:13

Which means gospel ordinances and principles matter Priesthood these all all these things pre -existed

01:03:20

God the God of this planet because there are an unlimited number of God and God himself is not eternal

01:03:30

And so The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and run to the heavens

01:03:37

The Mormon God did not make the heavens and the earth. He organized them didn't create them he didn't bring them into existence and Yet the constant drumbeat of the prophets is

01:03:51

To contrast the false gods of people with the true God in this very fashion

01:03:58

It's a constant drumbeat. And so no matter how hard Mormonism tries let me let me say something that some of you may have not heard me say before.

01:04:09

Oh, you were over there, huh? Who cares? Um you I'm gonna say something that maybe you've not heard me say before and it might catch your attention

01:04:20

Islam Is considerably closer to biblical Christianity the Mormonism ever could be

01:04:26

That normally gets everyone's attention the Mormon next door the guy with the the

01:04:34

Bibles and you know flies the American flag and and is you know has a nice family and takes care of his little yard and What why are you talking about?

01:04:45

Well simple the most basic Definitional element of a religious belief is whether it's monotheistic or not

01:04:55

Christianity is monotheistic despite what the Muslims might think and Islam Is monotheistic, it's

01:05:03

Unitarian monotheistic. We're Trinitarian monotheistic, but we only believe there's only one God who create all things and who has eternally been

01:05:11

God and We share that with the Muslim the Mormons deny that fundamentally foundationally

01:05:19

Elohim organized this planet but this the materialist planet pre -existed and was not brought into existence by Elohim because Elohim himself had to live on a planet to become a god as Did the

01:05:31

God before him and the God before him and the God before him back into eternity? Now, of course that doesn't work if you have an increasing number of gods today go backwards in eternity eventually, you got to get to the first God and Mormonism has never come up with an answer for this

01:05:45

They can't because it's irrational Polytheism is an irrational system. So here

01:05:52

I think Jeremiah 10 11 of all the texts of Scripture is So directly aimed right at Mormonism and It's just fascinating to me that God gave his people these words in The language of the people inviting them to idolatry

01:06:12

Thus you shall say to them. Here's We're gonna hand you you just read it to him Okay, the gods did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens

01:06:23

And that's a message that we need to be bringing to the Mormon people now,

01:06:28

I Promised you last time that You know there are if you go to There it is if you go to I'm gonna go ahead and leave that there

01:06:49

The LDS scriptures, well, let me back up if you if you go to letters to a Mormon elder I Provide lots of arguments against the prophethood of Joseph Smith false prophecies and section 114 of the

01:07:01

Doctrine and Covenants Could never have taken place and it's a it's clear evidence that Joseph Smith did not have access to knowledge of future events and you know all this this kind of stuff and So there's but the reality is you can go round and round and round and round because if someone wants to make

01:07:20

Joseph Smith the Prophet all I gotta do is keep lowering the bar For what a prophet is and and that seems to be the the the tendency of people today

01:07:32

But I think and and you know archaeology in the Book of Mormon man, that's a

01:07:39

What the Book of Mormon says was going on in Mesoamerica at the time That we know it was going on in Mesoamerica.

01:07:46

No connection whatsoever Yeah, if you're really interested in stuff like this go track down I Assume we have it because I know we still have the tape

01:07:57

I assume we have it on sermon audio the KTK K radio program where I Were you you were up there for that one?

01:08:11

But I think back on it man, we were just walking in the lion's den and just going hey, this is fun.

01:08:17

Hey Wow, we we did a radio programs at least two hours long

01:08:27

Where we were in studio you were sitting out. I think you were sitting outside so because that was a small studio

01:08:33

Tiny little studio. Yes. Yes It was it was terrible Martin Tanner an

01:08:40

LDS attorney. I believe he's been disbarred but an LDS attorney Was the host?

01:08:47

I've debated him you can you can that we've debated the University of Utah that is on YouTube So Martin Tanner was the host and Then doctors

01:08:58

Peterson and Hamblin From at the time it was called farms foundation for ancient research and Mormon studies.

01:09:04

That's gone. It's been replaced by who knows what now? And I don't think they're associated with it anymore

01:09:12

So there were two BYU professors and a Mormon attorney and me in a tiny little

01:09:22

Studio Taking live calls in Salt Lake City Okay, you can't be in more of a minority position

01:09:29

Then then then we were that night. I'll never forget

01:09:36

I brought up the fact that in the Book of Mormon The the

01:09:44

Lamanites and the Nephites have these great battles With swords and chariots and bows and arrows and all the rest of stuff and now that stuff existed in Mesoamerica You know, the the monetary system is completely different They have gold coins of gold and silver in the

01:10:04

Book of Mormon gold and silver is so plentiful They didn't care about it Jade and cocoa beans was was what was precious in amongst those people but the amazing thing was before I got up there

01:10:15

I had read an article by Hamblin and The Book of Mormon talks about people drawing their swords from their sheaths

01:10:26

Now if you've ever I should have should have should have grabbed them with a sword I've got my

01:10:31

I've got my Maximus sword in the other room. I should have grabbed it I wasn't even thinking about doing this. So that's that's why But you know in the other studio behind me.

01:10:39

I've got those two swords. One is unsheathed It's the claymore and then I've got the Maximus sword from movie gladiator from Wow 21 years 23 years ago now.

01:10:49

Yikes Anyway, and If you if you have a sword in a sheath

01:10:56

Okay, you have to be able to pull it out, which means there that has to be a smooth sword has to be smooth sheath and Dr.

01:11:08

Hamblin, I think it was him. I could have been here. So there's one of the two of them that I was talking to They had actually in light of the fact that we don't have any swords

01:11:19

In this time period of Mesoamerica Had suggested that what was being referred to was a war club with obsidian sharp of sharp shards of obsidian rock

01:11:32

Embedded in the war club because we have found those So if you think of a wooden club that someone has pressed sharp

01:11:41

Shards of rock into I wouldn't want to get hit by it But that's not a sword and you can't put it in a sheath and if you try to draw it out of something, it's gonna catch on everything and It in the

01:11:56

Book of Mormon even talks about the Sun glinting off the blades. I mean, this is clearly Joseph Smith thinking about the

01:12:03

Romans and All that kind of stuff But that didn't exist in Mesoamerica During the time period where the

01:12:12

Book of Mormon says that it did So you can go back and you can listen you can listen to these intelligent men literally trying to defend the idea that pulling a short sword from the sheath and And scalping somebody try scalping somebody with a war club.

01:12:29

Oh That's blunt force trauma that's Not even close

01:12:37

But you go listen They'll try to they'll try to defend it.

01:12:43

So yeah, there's There's all sorts of stuff like that and I'm actually starting to run into Mormons shockingly who go.

01:12:50

Oh, yeah Yeah, that's the Book of Mormon didn't happen. Historically. It's it's all meant to be a parable

01:12:58

Joseph Smith didn't believe that and if you're one of those Mormons think that go to the documentary history of the church and Look up Zelf the white

01:13:12

Lamanite Just look Zelf is a that's a pretty easy word

01:13:18

That's a pretty easy name to remember look it up for yourself and you'll see Joseph Smith did not believe what he was saying was simply a parable

01:13:26

He was presenting this as actual history, but having said all of that all right,

01:13:35

I Told you about this little track what?

01:13:47

More what's that? What's that? Mormonism research

01:13:54

It pops up There you go, yeah,

01:14:01

I'm not making this stuff up Little did

01:14:09

Joseph Smith know look up Zelf the white Lamanite folks. Just trust me you look if you're listening to this and You're gonna be meeting with the rest of your family for dinner tonight

01:14:22

Just think how fascinating your conversation could be tonight when you introduce everyone in your family Zelf the white

01:14:28

Lamanite, let me just read some the introduction to men is not God In 1835

01:14:34

Michael H Chandler man, I wish I had my glasses and Michael H Chandler arrived in Kirtland, Ohio in his horse -drawn wagon

01:14:40

He carried four Egyptian mummies along with the mummies were included displays the papyri rolls found on the mummies themselves

01:14:47

Joseph Smith the Mormon prophet was fascinated by Chandler's exhibits so much So that his fledgling church purchased the entire display from Chandler for a large sum of money $2 ,400 and let me tell you something kids $2 ,400 doesn't sound like much today because we have so debased our currency, but in 1835 $2 ,400 was a king's ransom that You know when you could buy a suit, you know for two bucks 2 ,400 bucks was was money

01:15:21

Joseph Smith said quote soon after this some of the Saints at Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus and with W W felt some

01:15:28

Oliver Cowdery's scribes I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphs hieroglyphics and Much to our joy found that one of the rules contained the writings of Abraham Another writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc.

01:15:43

That's in the documentary history of church volume 2 page 236 It should be remembered that this time the study of Egyptian was on a scholarly level in its infancy

01:15:51

Smith was claimed to be able To translate what was for all practical purposes and unknown language Of course, he had claimed the same ability in translating the

01:15:59

Book of Mormon, which was said to have been written in reformed Egyptian That Smith was indeed claiming to translate in the normal sense.

01:16:06

The term can be seen from his own words quote The remainder this month. I was continuously engaged in Translating an alphabet to the

01:16:14

Book of Abraham and Arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients

01:16:19

Documented his church volume 2 page 238 Over the next nine years

01:16:25

Smith continued to work on his translation of the Book of Abraham The work was included in the Pearl Great Price when it was accepted as scripture in 1880

01:16:34

Okay now The Book of Abraham's weird even to Mormon Okay, Pearl Great Price is weird even to Mormons in general once again remember

01:16:49

This is called a quad because it's King James Version of Bible Book of Mormon. Dr. Cumber's for your price This is the triple which is just the

01:16:54

Book of Mormon. Dr. Cumber's for your price. So Pearl Great Price is at the end toward the back and if they've put a index in there, then it's not gonna be all the way toward the back but you'll find the

01:17:07

Book of Moses in there and Then you find the Book of Abraham on page 28 starts on page 28 of the current edition of Things if you would like you can go

01:17:27

Find my cursor here to There it is

01:17:34

Church Jesus Christ Church of Jesus Christ org slash study slash scriptures

01:17:41

Slash PGP if you want to go all the way Find the Pearl Great Price Yeah, oh yeah

01:17:55

Well, but this way you can verify this from the LDS source itself The Book of Abraham It's much easier to sit on this

01:18:07

The Book of Abraham is the only book in the LDS scriptures of pictures. They're not pictures are called facsimiles facsimile number one

01:18:18

On Page 28 of the current printed edition

01:18:26

Shows the angel of the Lord Abraham fastened upon upon the altar the idolatrous priests of Alcana attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice and this is all found in the pages of the

01:18:37

Book of Abraham and Then you Go through a little bit farther and you find what's on the screen right now facsimile number two and then there is a third facsimile that is included at the end of The Book of Abraham I only have facsimile number two up you can find all of these again if you just go to LDS org and Click on scriptures go to Pearl Great Price.

01:19:07

You can look at these things for yourself So on so forth I want to look primarily at facsimile number two

01:19:16

Because what this is Now let me back back the truck up here

01:19:24

For many many many years the LDS Church believed that the original papyri

01:19:34

That Joseph Smith bought from Michael Chandler had been lost in the Chicago fire that had been burned destroyed the 1960s

01:19:46

The papyri were found they weren't destroyed in the Chicago fire. We can tell that these are the papyri that Joseph Smith used

01:19:56

Because we have drawings we have the facsimiles and we can compare them and We have them and if you want to see what all look in fact

01:20:06

You don't have to trust my word for it. I showed these to you last time in 1985

01:20:16

Charles M. Larson Institute for Religious Research Published by his own hand upon papyrus and Here are

01:20:27

There's there's the Book of Abraham papyrus scroll the book of Joseph papyrus scroll, so And you go well, that's not an

01:20:39

LDS source, okay Robert K.

01:20:45

Rittner the Joseph Smith Egyptian papyri a complete Edition with translation and everything else provided to you.

01:20:52

This is published by Signature Books, which is LDS Salt Lake City 2013 John Gee a

01:21:00

Mormon scholar proficient in Egyptology was thrown into Trying to find an explanation for this mess and His Answers have evolved over the time over time

01:21:15

But you have John Gee a guide to the Joseph Smith papyri this is

01:21:23

Published by Farms 2000. This is 15 years after What you have in Larson and then later

01:21:32

John Gee an introduction to the book of Abraham this one is 2017 and All you have to do is look at the

01:21:44

It's interesting they don't provide nearly as good pictures Color pictures as Larson did long long ago, but if you look at them, yeah, these they're the same one.

01:21:55

So they The LDS Church has had to admit that what we had what was discovered in 1960s is

01:22:03

What Joseph Smith was using and they've even found his Egyptian alphabet and grammar Now we're gonna look at this as specifically in just a moment.

01:22:13

But let me just summarize things for you when you look at Joseph Smith's attempting to copy material from the papyri

01:22:24

He doesn't know what he's reading. He's never seen Egyptian before Which means he didn't have any reformed

01:22:29

Egyptian plates either And He will write a small symbol and then have a paragraph of what it means

01:22:42

So the symbol might mean the and the word the may appear in his translation but it goes along with like 76 other proper in English nouns and Verbs and things like that.

01:22:55

He had no idea. He never got anything, right? He had no idea was looking at he was looking at what's called the portions from the

01:23:02

Egyptian Book of the Dead There's a breathing permit These were things that would be wrapped under a mummy's hands that were meant to help them in the afterlife when of course they didn't and So these facsimiles are all well known from this time period they do not go back to the period of Abraham It was completely wrong as to the age of these documents

01:23:25

He plainly is saying these were written by Abraham that would make them the oldest written documents in human history

01:23:32

No, they're first century They're about first century and had they get to Ohio Because the

01:23:40

Brits stole everything The the British stole everything from Egypt and They were a curiosity.

01:23:51

Remember you don't have you don't have ESPN back then, you know so when a traveling showman comes through they can make some money because Man, you'll you'll throw you'll throw a few pennies in to get to see stuff that you've never seen anyplace else before And so The reality is the

01:24:10

Book of Abraham shows the beginning of Joseph Smith's development of polytheism

01:24:16

He wasn't a polytheist in 1830 with the Book of Mormon, but by the time you get into the

01:24:21

Book of Abraham It is now amazingly Starting to substantiate his new changes which he was getting criticized for by people in church his new changes in theology in adopting a view of polytheism and so What we need to understand is that the he provides an explanation

01:24:47

There's an explanation in fact Yeah Yeah, see there's the explanation it's it's a part of the

01:24:54

LDS scriptures All right. So this explanation is provided by Joseph Smith himself

01:25:01

All right. So let's look at what this here here is What this actually is is called a hypocephalus a hypocephalus it was placed under the head and It represents various aspects of Egyptian religion purely pagan

01:25:21

And it is meant to guide the person in the afterlife so let me read from the explanation and let's go ahead and Let me read from the explanation.

01:25:38

So Figure number one right here.

01:25:45

There's figure number one Move this Out of the way, there's figure number one

01:25:55

Kolob signifying the first creation nearest to the celestial or the residence of God now you need to understand

01:26:02

The book of Abraham tells us where God lives because God has a body of flesh and bones tangible as any man he lives on a

01:26:11

Planet the circle star named Kolob Okay, so here's representation of Kolob that comes from the book of Abraham And I've already told you before remember

01:26:20

Battlestar Galactica Kobol Kolob. It's all written by Mormons. Okay True and just look it up yourself

01:26:28

So here's this is this represents Kolob The first creation nearest to the celestial or the residence of God first in government last pertaining to the measurement of time

01:26:36

The measurement according to celestial time which celestial time signifies one day as a cubit One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according the measurements of this earth, which is called by the

01:26:48

Egyptians Jaho a Figure number two

01:26:57

That's right here figure number two stands next to Kolob called by the

01:27:04

Egyptians or liblish Which is the next grand governing creation near the celestial or the place where God resides?

01:27:12

pulling the key of power also pertaining to other planets as Revealed from God to Abraham as he offered sacrifice upon an altar, which he had built under the

01:27:19

Lord A Figure three a well -known figure

01:27:27

Egyptian mythology, by the way Figure number three is made to represent God sitting upon his throne clothes of power and authority

01:27:34

With a crown of eternal light upon his head Representing also the grand keywords the holy priesthood as revealed to Adam in the

01:27:41

Garden of Eden and also to Seth Noah Melchizedek Abraham unto all whom the priesthood was revealed now

01:27:48

You can go into ghee you can go and I provide some of these in Men is not

01:27:56

God and provide what Mormon Egyptologists say some of these are about but we want to focus on This section right here unfortunately that section is upside down from our perspective

01:28:18

So what I will do is I will leave This particular, thank you,

01:28:32

I suppose it would be good to take that away too now and I have saved that graphic and Flipped upside down for you

01:28:45

So that we can see what it looks like that.

01:28:56

Come on. There we go. All right So this is

01:29:02

Figure seven you can see that sevens now upside down, but this is figure seven, right?

01:29:11

Here's what Joseph Smith says represents God sitting upon his throne

01:29:17

Revealing through the heavens the grand keywords of the priesthood as Also the sign of the

01:29:23

Holy Ghost unto Abraham in the form of a dove. So here is the Holy Ghost In the form of a dove

01:29:30

Here's God sitting upon his throne and he's revealing to the heavens the grand keywords of the priesthood

01:29:38

Okay, this is Current edition of the Pearl Gray Price right here.

01:29:44

You can go down the LDS bookstore go online It's all there

01:29:55

Now we've already mentioned what the hypocephalus is Many of these hypocephali have been found all around Egypt One of the many pagan gods pictured in this hypocephalus is shown above as it appears in a current edition of the

01:30:15

LDS LDS scriptures Egyptologists tell us that this This is the

01:30:24

God Min Min And Min is an ethyphalic

01:30:35

God. Yes. He has an erection I'm just showing you the

01:30:42

LDS scriptures That is he's sexually is a sexually aroused male deity.

01:30:49

Oh Man, that might mean that this has something to do with cisgender ism. Haha. Maybe that's why they'll get rid of it

01:30:55

Min Is the God of the procreative forces of nature

01:31:02

Joseph Smith told us the Egyptian God Min was in point of fact the one true God revealing to the heavens the grand keywords priesthood

01:31:10

And what is Min doing? Joseph tells us he is revealing the grand keywords the priesthood with the sign of the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove before Him so that would be that right there in reality

01:31:22

He is holding up the divine flail in one hand and is being approached by the figure

01:31:28

Joseph Smith Identifies the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove point of fact Joseph's hypocephalus was damaged at the border

01:31:34

So that only the head of the quote dove was visible. So Joseph had to restore The picture did he do so correctly?

01:31:41

No, he did not the figure We provide the picture in the track of a from a undamaged hypocephalus

01:31:50

This is from Leighton AMS 62 the being that is approaching Min is not the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove

01:31:56

It is yet another if a phallic figure specifically a serpent probably the Egyptian God Nehebka Presenting to Min the widget.

01:32:05

I the symbol of good gifts, which is what you have right there. Okay So dr.

01:32:15

Hugh Nibley Upon whom it fell initially to try to defend the book of Abraham when the papyri first appeared

01:32:20

Hugh Nibley said as the supreme sex symbol of gods and men men behaves with shocking promiscuity

01:32:26

Which is hardly relieved by its ritual nature His sacred plants were aphrodisiacal and he is ever represented as as indulging in incestuous relationships with those of his immediate family

01:32:38

He had the most numerous and varied religious entourage of all the gods consisting mostly of his huge harem

01:32:44

The hymns or rather chanting of his worshipers were accompanied with lewd dancing and carousing to the exciting stimulus of a band of sistrum shaking damsels

01:32:57

That's the true God According to Joseph Smith now you can see why

01:33:10

There have been a lot of people a lot of people who have left the

01:33:16

LDS Church When they found out What the book of Abraham Abraham was actually about because this is just this is just one aspect of it

01:33:25

Error after error after error after which is what you would expect. What would you expect to someone who never went past grade school?

01:33:31

In upstate New York looking at Egyptian papyri while he thinks he's a prophet and he's also evolving the theology of his church and He's already claimed to be able to translate

01:33:43

Reformed Egyptian, which is how he got his holy book in the first place This is the kind of absolute blundering

01:33:52

That you would expect in that situation and here it is How do Mormons tell you over I've prayed

01:33:59

I've gotten a testimony about the Book of Mormon how does someone who can't translate a few paragraphs of Egyptian get 530 pages the

01:34:09

Book of Mormon, right? He claimed the same authority Right Many people who have dug into this story

01:34:21

Sadly, what happens is they just they leave religion there they're religiously abused the burned and That's what happens when you find out that your religion's false without finding out what's true at the same time

01:34:39

That's why And man, I don't know how many times I've said this now over 40 years

01:34:45

But I would rather have five people with me in Salt Lake City that can that can clearly

01:34:53

Define and delineate the Christian gospel the Christian message then 50 people that can rip and shred

01:34:59

Joseph Smith But have nothing positive to give in its place because that's what happens When people find out the truth, they find out men is not

01:35:08

God They're not necessarily going to start going out immediately and going why

01:35:14

I need to find the true God and so I'm gonna I'm gonna go Talk to the Christian churches and stuff like that.

01:35:21

No, they When when Jason Wallace started telling me years ago about how

01:35:29

Salt Lake City And the whole Salt Lake Valley was this

01:35:36

Stinking mass of Every kind of religious quackery you could ever think of I mean

01:35:46

New Age wacko ism and It's all up there they've got a little bit of everything why

01:35:58

Um Once you leave Mormonism You know, you can go out you can end up landing anywhere and they do and they do

01:36:10

So the book of Abraham to me is just so clear because as the track explains

01:36:19

The Rosetta Stone had been found but it took took a while for scholars to figure out how to use it

01:36:24

To to crack the the code and learn to read the language Which can be read completely now

01:36:32

And So Joseph Smith thought he was safe. No one could read this language anyway so That was the foundation stone of his

01:36:45

Proclaimed prophethood No one's ever find the golden tablets because there weren't any

01:36:51

Okay, he made all that up But here's where he made his mistake is

01:36:58

He actually had papyri and he let people see them and he wrote down his Egyptian alphabet and grammar which was never right about anything and Then to have the papyri disappear, ah, well that was

01:37:13

Convenient because while they were absent there were lots of people Who encountered the

01:37:19

LDS scriptures they encountered the Pearl of Great Price and once we started understanding Egyptian there are a lot of people outside of Utah going

01:37:28

That's not what that is that's not even close we know what that is now We have all sorts of examples of that, but they hadn't found the papyri yet And so they were able to dodge and well, you know, we don't know what he originally had but then when the actual papyri themselves were found and You could just tell that that's they are that this is what he used.

01:37:49

Oh Now, what do you do? Now you have the perfect exit a perfect opportunity of testing

01:37:55

Joseph Smith and he fails spectacularly Now you didn't need the book of Abraham to know that he failed that spectacularly when

01:38:05

When he said right toward the end of his life we have imagined suppose that God was God from all eternity

01:38:11

I'll refute the idea and take away the veils that you might see With that quotations and King Follett funeral discourse.

01:38:17

He separated his followers from Christianity forever That's all it took. That's all it would have taken But wow, there's a lot of evidence to demonstrate

01:38:25

Just how far off Joseph Smith was was never a prophet and There's no reason for you to believe anything that he or his successors taught

01:38:37

Because it has all been a lie from the start from the start But the

01:38:44

Moran people need people to tell them those things and That's why we've been doing this for as many years as we've been doing this.

01:38:51

So hopefully that's helpful to you Hopefully not too shocking to you. Hey, they actually put out an edition of the pro -great price where they neutered men

01:39:02

Back in the 80s because they even they knew what it was how Smith couldn't have seen it. I don't know

01:39:08

But they they did neuter him for a while, but then they they de -neutered him later on When people started asking questions because that just pointed that just made it all the more obvious So there you go.

01:39:21

There you go. Min is not God again. The PDF for this is on aomin .org

01:39:27

and Hopefully you'll track that down and be able to utilize that. That'll be helpful to you.

01:39:33

All right, so tomorrow Radio free Geneva radio free

01:39:38

Geneva responding to Calvinism a biblical and theological critique looking once again at An issue we have delved into I will try

01:39:49

Here's what I'll try to do. I will try to include the link to That because it when

01:39:58

I found it. I looked up David Allen and it pulled up I think we took it out of a longer dividing line and made it its own separate thing

01:40:07

So I'll try to include the link to that If you have the time to listen to that man then you're gonna find tomorrow to be you'll be able to really you're gonna be up to speed big -time and Hopefully be all the more useful to you.

01:40:20

And then we will talk about Andy Stanley on Thursday On the program so you get three dividing lines heading your way this week

01:40:31

I'm not sure we're gonna be able to do that next week because I've got a lot of prep to be doing for The trip and I've got debates coming up and stuff like that and man at my age

01:40:39

I just don't go as fast as I used to So anyway, so we will see you tomorrow for radio free