The Dividing Line - Responding to Jason Reed

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00:23

Welcome to The Divine Line, my name's James White. I'm looking for the sound control on my phone.

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I got a new one, and the really cool quiet thing that I used to have has unfortunately disappeared someplace, so I guess

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I'll just have to ask that nobody call me during the program today, please, or it's going to go off, and I don't know where the really cool...

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You know what happens when you ask that on the air. Yeah, everybody's going to start looking for my phone number.

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I don't know where it went, I had a really cool thing, and I guess that's the one thing I haven't figured out on this yet is where to turn that off at, so that's going to be fun.

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Let's just hope it doesn't go off and we'll have to go from there. Anyways, that's what happens, new phone, not sure where stuff is, but welcome to The Divine Line today.

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My name's James White. Important subject today, didn't mean to start off in a... But I was rushing so much to get this sound file edited that I got done about 30 seconds beforehand, so I didn't have time to do anything else.

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Just back from South Africa, and when you're gone for almost two weeks, everything you were supposed to be doing for two weeks backs up on you, and if you've got emails in waiting for me to respond to them,

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I might get to them by 2014. Right now, that's my best guess. I might get back to you by 2014.

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We'll see. I might have some time in January, maybe, before I go to Kiev. Anyway, while I was in South Africa, I received two emails from individuals who will remain nameless, who asked me to review a video that had been posted by one

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Jason Reed, who has been a philosophy professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary.

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Now, most of you know that last week, Dr. Richard Land, formerly of the

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Southern Baptist Ethics Commission thing, became president of Southern Evangelical Seminary.

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And I was just looking at a picture, I was informed that one of the speakers at the installation of Dr. Land was

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Dr. Ergin Kanner. And I know that Dr. Land knows about the charges against Dr.

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Kanner, so I'm very disappointed in that and the fact that Dr. Kanner spoke at this conference.

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There are other people that were very disappointed about that who were there as well. But politics are politics, and that is what we're dealing with here, is we're dealing with political alignments and people helping other people to cover things.

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And so it's a shame that that happened. But politics are politics.

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And unfortunately, those politics are also infecting and affecting this situation as well.

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Some of you will recall, in fact, if I remember, I will post, when we post this video,

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I will post the video of my discussion with Dr. Howell at Southern Evangelical Seminary last

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February, when I debated Michael Brown on apologetic methodology. I really hadn't been told that's what we were going to be doing.

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I wasn't told it was going to be a little mini -debate, so I had zero preparation for doing it.

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But it was still an interesting discussion. And interestingly enough, toward the end, a number of the students raised the question about Roman Catholicism and Sola Scriptura and all those things relevant to that.

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And evidently, there is an entire wave of people who have been associated with Southern Evangelical Seminary who are entering into the

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Roman Catholic Church. And so I talked about what the real issues are. The real issues are

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Rome's Gospel and the concept of authority, Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, the

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Atonement of Christ, the blasphemy of the Mass, things like that. And I recognize that in most seminaries, those things are really not central any longer.

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And one of the issues that had come up in our discussion was Dr. Howell's defense of the primacy of philosophy over theology, and my assertion that theology and revelation is primary to philosophy in the

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Christian apologetic approach. And so the key person philosophically at Southern Evangelical Seminary, of course, is

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Thomas Quinas. And Southern Evangelical Seminary was started by Dr.

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Norman Geisler. And some of you may know that Geisler put out a book on Roman Catholicism a couple years ago, and within one year, his co -author became

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Roman Catholic. There have been many people over the years who have described

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Dr. Geisler as Roman Geisler. His PhD is from a Jesuit university, and I think you can get a

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PhD from a Jesuit. But the reality is that Dr.

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Geisler's synergism is not consistent with the Reformation. I have said that all along, wrote a whole book, think

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I proved my point, given the fact that I think Dr. Geisler's synergism, as demonstrated in Chosen but Free, has produced far more

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Calvinists than he ever intended it to produce, as a result of their actually examining that book and its argumentation.

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Dr. Geisler does come up in Jason Reed's testimony here, we'll hear that in a little while. It's a short testimony, it's certainly nothing new to those who are familiar with Roman Catholicism, but evidently, what we have here are a number of people at Southern Evangelical Seminary who,

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I guess, have not been grounded or even informed of the key issues of the Reformation.

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And is this due to Dr. Geisler's influence? I've heard Dr. Geisler make some pretty amazing statements about the

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Reformation. He is really not friendly toward the Reformers in any functional way.

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And is that what's coming out here? I don't know. But what we're going to hear, we're going to play the key elements of Jason Reed's testimony, we're going to let him speak for himself, and then we're going to respond.

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And we're going to demonstrate there's nothing new here. And I'm going to have to say some hard things about schools that make

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Thomas Aquinas their central core. I'm going to have to say some hard things about evangelicals who know nothing about their history.

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And in particular, I'm going to have to reiterate something I've said, and there's going to be nothing new here from me at all.

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But I'm going to have to reiterate a statement I've made many, many times before. And that is, if you are a quote -unquote anti -Catholic, but you are so out of ignorance, you are so out of tradition, you are so out of taste, but you are not opposed to Rome because you firmly believe that her gospel is a false gospel that robs people of peace with God, then you are a prime candidate for conversion to Roman Catholicism.

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The anti -Catholic spectrum out there of people who are not convinced in their hearts that their only peace with God comes from the absolute righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is imputed to us.

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If you're not convinced of that, then you don't really have a really good reason not to be a Roman Catholic. There are a lot of people who are not

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Roman Catholics, but they are not Roman Catholics for the wrong reasons. And we're going to hear exactly what happens when you are raised in a shallow evangelicalism that knows nothing of its history, knows nothing of what

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Sola Scriptura really is, has no passion for Sola Scriptura, has no passion for the singular glory of God in the revelation of his word and his truth, has no passion for the gospel, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that these are just surface -level things that are sort of taken as a given, but are not passionately held to.

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You are a perfect candidate, if that describes you, for conversion to Roman Catholicism. You really are.

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And that's what's happened to Jason Reed and evidently about 15 other people who are making plans to swim the

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Tiber. What they don't seem to understand is that they've never been on the other side of the Tiber.

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They've been paddling around the middle, and now they're just going to beach their boats. And that's what this program is going to be about.

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The talk, however, began with an act of blasphemy. And you say, oh, you're turning people off of that.

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Listen to it. A priest prayed to Mary. He praised

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Mary. By the way, praise is worship. All the pretended distinctions between Latria and Dulia and Hyperdulia evaporate when you actually listen to Roman Catholics worshiping

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Mary, because that's what it is. When you ascribe praise to someone, you are worshiping them in the context in which this prayer is offered.

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Listen to what the priest says. Now, it's really weird to me, because it sounds like the guy keeps saying gods.

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I don't know if he has a lisp or if the sound system was just catching something.

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I don't know, but it sounds like he keeps saying gods. It sounds like he's a polytheist. But I'm going to assume that that's not the case, and it's just an artifact of the recording.

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I don't know. But it's still clear enough to hear. Listen to the blasphemous ascription of activities and roles to Mary that the

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Bible nowhere ascribes to her and ascribes solely to Jesus Christ. This is an act of blasphemy, and it's what began

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Jason Reed's testimony. Listen to this priest. I will actually play him at single speed.

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So I'll be playing Jason Reed at 1 .2, so we can get through a little bit faster. But I want you to hear what he has to say.

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Okay, so there's how it starts.

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And did you notice the things that were ascribed to Mary? Take our prayers into the inner sanctuary.

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That's the function of the Spirit of God. Win for us, pardon for our sins.

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I mean, this is utter blasphemy. There is no one on God's green earth that will ever be able to make that kind of idolatrous worship

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Christian. It's not biblical. There is no one who can say that's what the apostles taught.

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So it's amazing to me that it starts off with this clear, obvious,

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I mean, no one in the early church believed in what Roman Catholicism has defined as dogma regarding Mary in only the past couple of centuries.

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And they just can't see it. They just can't see it. It's just, oh, that's just, you know, it later on you could say, well, this was just normative throughout the history of the church.

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Baloney it was. That's not true. That's not factually true. You could never defend that statement in meaningful debate or in meaningful scholastic dialogue.

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It couldn't be done. There was nobody at the Council of Nicaea who believed what Jason Reed believes today about the

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Virgin Mary. Nobody. Nobody. I stand by the thousand percent no one could ever refute me. Never could even try.

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And won't. And won't try. Because it's a fact. Why do you think Cardinal Newman developed the development hypothesis?

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Because he knew it was the case. Has to be the acorn in the tree, you see. Got to come up with an excuse somehow.

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So it starts, it's amazing to me, it starts off with utter blasphemy. And then Jason Reed demonstrates that he never understood the centrality of Christian ministry and the place of the word of God in the worship of the people of God.

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And that he has now embraced a basically pagan view of the existence of God. Listen to what he says.

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I usually don't get nervous when I speak. But I'm at the last place

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I've ever thought I'd be. And the reason why

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I'm nervous is it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the God himself, knowing that Jesus is actually here.

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Wow. Every time I preach, we talk about the presence of God by his spirit amongst us.

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Every time I preach, we are proclaiming the word of God. We beseech

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God's presence amongst us by his spirit. And one of the fundamental differences between Christianity and paganism is that paganism, you have your

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God locked up in a box in the temple. And evidently, Jason Reed is concerned because God's down the hall.

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Well, Mr. Reed, every time we preach in the true Christian church, God isn't in a box down the hall.

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He is with his people. And if you never understood that, then I'm sorry, sir.

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I'm sorry. I can see why you've been attracted to Rome, if you had no idea that that's what was actually going on.

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And if you're in evangelical churches, where worship is treated as if it's just something that men do to get the kids excited and to get the ladies excited and to make good, warm feelings, then

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I can understand that. But a lot of us don't worship that way. They don't worship that way.

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We worship in spirit and truth, we do so biblically, and we do not believe that God is in a box down the road or down the hall.

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And I feel for anybody who has that view. Mr. Reed tells us that he made a profession of faith in a

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Methodist church early on in life. I grew up in a church -going family, from a very loving family, great parents.

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Church was a part of our life. And at roughly 15, 16,

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I made a profession of faith. However, he will say later on, he wasn't converted at that time.

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So he made a statement of faith, and unfortunately, especially if this was United Methodist Church, at this particular point in time in the 1980s, the

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United Methodist Church had already gone into a major level of apostasy. And probably, in most

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United Methodist churches, you would never have actually heard with clarity the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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He then talks a little bit about what he thought about Roman Catholics, and he said he didn't know much about them, and still, interestingly enough, does not.

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And what I knew about Catholics at that time was, they're odd. No, fish is not off limits on Fridays.

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That's supposed to be a day of fasting, you're supposed to not do meat, and that's why there were fish fries, so you could actually do fish.

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So he had it backwards, and that's why I don't think anybody laughed at that one. But then he tells about reading some, he was a baseball player, and so he read about Earl Hirscheiser and some other people.

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And so then you have his quote -unquote conversion to Christianity, but notice the last emphasis that is given.

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With my will. There you go. With my will, I convert to Christianity.

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Of course, from my view, convert to Christianity when God wills, not when you will, but that's an issue that will come up a little bit later on as well, and it is relevant.

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Now, it's interesting, he then talks about going to a Baptist group called Salt Shakers, and listen to what he says.

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Now, again, what we're hearing each time that Mr. Reid talks about his view of Roman Catholicism is that he had no earthly idea what

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Roman Catholicism actually taught. In other words, he knew nothing about the Reformation, he knew nothing about the solas, he knew nothing about the great conflict between Luther and Erasmus and nature of the will, justification by faith, imputation, the one -time finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross over against the propitiatory sacrifice of the mass, and all that stuff not a part, evidently, of his upbringing, and then, strangely enough, he's going to graduate from seminary,

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Southern Evangelical Seminary, and still not know any of that stuff. Now, certainly,

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I know how that works. You can graduate from pretty much any seminary today, and you're not going to know about that stuff.

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It's a sad reality, but it's a reality all the same. But that's what he's saying.

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So his anti -Catholic stance is, as he's going to say, one of bigotry.

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Bigotry is an attitude against someone or some group that's based upon ignorance.

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It's not based upon knowledge. It's based upon ignorance, and he's going to admit it really, really, really is something that was beyond his understanding.

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So at the very least, his conversion is of a person who never understood what the issues were in the first place, which should be relevant to the value, apologetically, for those people who are analyzing these things.

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Is it someone who didn't know what the issues are, has made an emotional choice for Rome? Well, okay, that happens all the time.

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Here's some more comment from Mr. Reed regarding Southern Evangelical and Aquinas. So he said right there, yeah,

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I'm one of 10 or 15 who are converting. And he places that all within the context of, well, we all love

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Aquinas. Now, I've never understood, I'll be perfectly honest with you, I have never, ever understood the fascination that people have with Thomas Aquinas.

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Bright guy, but there have been a lot of bright guys in history of the Church. And silly me,

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I sort of think that if you're going to be impressed by people in the past, maybe you might want to start with the people who actually understood the

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Gospel. Maybe, I mean, you know, to me, it's applying the

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Gospel to all of life. That's what's really impressive to me. But Mr.

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Reed's a philosopher, and this is primarily philosophical conversion, to be honest with you.

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And if what you're looking for is, if you're impressed by big brains, then maybe you can be really impressed.

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I think there are some big brains on the other side. And personally, I think that taking your big brain and subjecting it to the

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Gospel first is far more important. But there you go. There's something about Aquinas.

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Then he goes on. And while I was there, studying under the sun,

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I learned why Catholics worship Jesus. You know, why do they read their Bibles?

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I was, I was informed about yeast.

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Now listen to these objections. You worship yeast. How about your doctrine of a propitiatory sacrifice of the mass that never perfects anyone is fundamentally detrimental to the biblical teaching of the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which perfects all those for whom it is made.

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How about that? How about going to Hebrews and making application there?

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How about going into church history and tracing the development of the doctrine of transubstantiation, the necessity of Aristotelian categories of philosophy to come in, which means it clearly wasn't what the primitive church believed because they didn't have

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Aristotelian categories to utilize. How about going there? You worship yeast? That's a jack -chick level anti -Catholicism.

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It's unworthy of even being repeated, to be perfectly honest with you.

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We're not hearing anything about Sola Scriptura. You'll never hear anything about Sola Scriptura in this discussion.

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It's just like not even aware of it. Not even aware of it.

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You never hear anything about the says a word about, you know,

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I was a real Protestant because I trusted that the peace I had with God when

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I awoke in the morning was due to the fact that there was nothing about me that made me right with God.

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There was everything about my substitute. There is everything about the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, which was given to me, and that's why

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I have peace. Not a word. Not a word. Not a word.

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I continue on. Extreme anti -Catholic, but it's all because I didn't know anything.

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So in other words, that's the bigoted anti -Catholicism, not the anti -Catholicism of the

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Reformation, which came from people who all themselves were former Roman Catholics and knew Rome's dogmas so very well.

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All former Catholics is what I know. Well, you know, would have been good to ask them some questions about why they were former

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Catholics, because there are a lot of people who are former Catholics for really bad reasons. If you're a former

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Catholic, and I've used the illustration many times, but there's gonna be people who only see this one video, they only hear this one presentation, so okay.

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I have said that if you leave the Roman Communion, if you get in your boat and you cross the

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Tiber River the opposite direction, you wave to Jason Reid as he's going by, if you don't get out on the other side of the

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Tiber River and then proceed to break your boat up so you can't go back and build out of it a pulpit from which you then begin to proclaim the

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Gospel across the river toward those on the other side, then I question why you left. I question as to whether you've actually gotten to the other side.

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There are people who leave the city of Rome, but they paddle around the middle again. Out there in the middle of the

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Tiber River, they actually haven't gone to the other side. Remember, I've said many times about Francis Beckwith, you look at his books, he never left

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Rome. He paddled around out in the middle, but he never felt that Rome's gospel is a false gospel and as such they were never reformed.

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They left for the wrong reasons, so going back is always a possibility because you still got your boat and it's all a matter of taste anyways, right?

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That's all there is to it. He goes on. So then after seminary, my professor and I had no way.

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So Norman Geisler says, go to graduate school, keep studying philosophy.

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All right. I partied my college, like I said, my great -grandparents, okay. Had really great seminary.

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The place where I wanted to go was St. Louis University. Every time

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I kept reading things on. Now, I just have to point out, are we really shocked that when you immerse somebody in a philosophical context tinged with all sorts of non -reformed, non -biblical concepts from Roman Catholicism and they say, hey, why don't you pursue a

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PhD in that area? Are we really shocked that when you don't give them a solid foundation in theology, they end up going to Rome?

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I mean, seriously? I'm not shocked. Why should anybody else be shocked?

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I understand it. It's like, yeah, that's probably what's going to happen.

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And that's exactly what happened. Now, then we have an amazing discussion here.

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Mr. Reid had not put any thought, even as a seminary graduate and PhD philosophy student, as to what defines a

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Christian. I don't know how you get to this point without having thought about what defines a

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Christian. But that's going to come out very, very clearly here. Listen to what he says and how he came to the conclusion that Catholics are

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Christians by a single response from a Catholic priest on EWTN to a basic question.

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And this says, well, it says a lot. So we went to Missouri to pursue a PhD in philosophy, and this is what

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I said. My interaction is with the Catholics. I met faithful Catholics.

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What? Yeah, I met faithful Catholics. And they would pray, we'd get to a theology debate,

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I would get to school, and I thought, okay, maybe they're Christian.

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Now, notice, he's the one that said it. He says, I was a bigot. Well, what's a bigot?

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A bigot is a person who makes their decisions based upon ignorance. So his rejection of Roman Catholicism was not based upon knowledge of it, was not based upon a heartfelt commitment to the gospel and the sufficiency of Scripture.

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It was just, well, you know, that's what I was raised with. He said it himself. I didn't have to say it.

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On television, it was like EWTN or something like that. I think that's what he said. And he had this

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Q &A, this priesthood. And I said, yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, that's right. That's what I was thinking. Now, think about just a minute.

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Mormons believe Jesus is the Son of God, even more literally. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it. Almost every cult

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I know believes it. You have to define what it means. And is that all it takes? See, here's the mere

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Christianity -ism of so much of evangelicalism come to roost. That's not enough.

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That's not enough. What if you believe Jesus is the Son of God, but you don't believe he died on the cross? What about the gospel?

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That's not enough. Rome may affirm orthodoxy in regards to the deity of Christ, but we just heard a priest replacing

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Jesus with Mary and taking the prayers of God's people into the sanctuary. And remember, according to the book of Galatians, all it took was one simple addition to the gospel for Paul to anathematize those who were preaching it.

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And Rome has added a dozen things. Evidently, that wasn't discussed in the theology classes.

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Maybe they were discussing Thomas Aquinas or something at that particular point in time. I do not know.

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Christians believe that. Only God can reveal that. I mean, to say that Jesus Christ is God and the

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Son of God comes from God. So I thought, I can't believe it. Maybe you can be

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Catholic and a Christian, but I seriously could not believe it. Sorry, we're going back to school.

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Wow, I think you're a Christian. And now notice some of the things that attract him to Roman Catholicism.

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Oh, this is great.

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I mean, for a philosopher, sitting around smoking pipes and cigars. I know some reformed folks do that.

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I don't do that myself. As a long distance cyclist, I actually honor my lungs and don't have any interest in that cool stuff and hence miss out on some cool conversations,

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I guess. But that's life. But pipes and cigars, there you go.

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We won't worry about that imputation stuff. No, let's not worry about the fact you can go to mass 20 ,000 times in your life and die impure, but they've got pipes and cigars and that's really cool.

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Okay, so there you go.

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There's his remaining objections. Marrying devotion creeps you out.

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The Pope ain't the head of the church and you don't eat Jesus. Now, again, there's truth in each one of those statements, but what should be understood is not only what

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Rome teaches about marrying devotion, but the fact that she has defined so many dogmas that are utterly unknown to the early church, utterly unknown to the apostles, as being dogmatic affirmations you must believe.

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And the Pope's not the head of the church. Well, all right, then do you know how the papacy developed?

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Do you understand the role that forged documents play in the medieval period in the establishment of Roman primacy?

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Are you familiar with the historical developments that left Rome the one apostolic see in the

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West? All those types of things. Did he take time to read the classical

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Protestant works? To even consider the real issues?

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I don't get any evidence. I don't even get the evidence he's ever even read the Institutes of Christian Religion by John Calvin, to be honest with you.

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I got no feeling of that at all. It's just one of those, you know, didn't have time over the cigars and pipes to get there.

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And again, listen to his own words. Now, he was being assigned to theology classes?

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This man who said, I don't know? He was being assigned to theology classes.

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Okay, all right. Now, part of the job at seminary was to train young people to defend evangelical faith.

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Okay, good, good thing. And I found myself unable to do it. I found myself unable to do it.

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Well, that should have caused him some real serious problems. And of course, the question we have to ask is, how did you graduate from seminary and find yourself in that position?

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Maybe there was an imbalance here. Maybe there was a problem here somewhere.

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Maybe, you know, I mean, is it the school's fault? Is it his fault? Is it a mixture?

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I mean, I know lots of people who go to seminary and graduate with a degree in confusion. I've said that many times.

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I watched that happen at Fuller Seminary. I watched people come into the program at Fuller Seminary and graduate with a master's degree in confusion.

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They came in knowing that they believed and went out completely confused. It's a sad thing to see.

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I'd say that was the majority, not the minority. But that's Fuller, not

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SES, not SES. It shouldn't be that way, should it? I would say not.

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I couldn't do it. I could get to God's existence, objective morality, even if Jesus Christ is the

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Son of God. But when it came to doctrine, when it came to formulating doctrine,

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I didn't know how to do that. Wow. I thought Jesus being the Son of God was doctrine.

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How do you get there without special revelation? Hmm. That concerns me.

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That concerns me. Then he tells a really strange story. And again, it goes back to the fact that clearly he did not have what

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I would call a Reformed understanding of the ministry of the Word of God in the church. And he tells a story about the

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Lord of the Rings. You know what? I'm not even going to play it. I'm just going to summarize it for you. He talks about the Lord of the

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Rings and how Gondor and the empty throne, and how in Roman Catholicism, the priest's always over the side, but God's in the center and the monstrance.

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But in Protestantism, man's in the center, the preacher. Two things. First of all,

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I have seen the Pope in the center many times. Does that make him God? Secondly, what you do need to understand, and again, this reflects upon primarily the degradation of Protestant views in quote -unquote evangelicalism, non -Reformed understandings of worship that focus upon men rather than upon the ministry of the

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Word of God. I have often gotten in trouble for pointing out that I am sick and tired of hearing singers make a comment, well, the speaker's going to come up after we finish worship.

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I had that happen once, ironically, in Chicago, prior to the writing of the

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Potter's Freedom at a conference that I was speaking at, too. I could not help.

39:36

As they were leaving the stage, I got up and said, well, I just have to comment. The worship has not finished.

39:43

In fact, in some ways, it's only beginning. Because when you proclaim God's truth, that's when worship's really taking place.

39:50

You see, what evidently Mr. Reid did not understand is that when the

39:55

Word of God is opened in the presence of the Spirit of God amongst the people of God, that's when worship takes place.

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That's the central act of worship. It's not the singing. It's not the standing or sitting or kneeling or anything else.

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It's the proclamation of God's truth amongst God's people. That's why we're there. That's when he meets with us in the most special and particular way.

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And so I'm sorry evidently, Mr. Reid, you didn't understand that. But that's the truth.

40:26

And so I'll just skip over that particular element. Then he says this.

40:35

What am I going to say here? Because here's what went through my mind. As I started thinking about being an evangelical thinker,

40:42

I had to think about what sort of belief system were we going to defend?

40:49

And to this day, I cannot tell you what evangelical theology is. I can tell you the spectrum. I cannot tell you what evangelical theology is.

40:57

Well, I think he's probably reflecting what

41:03

Karl Truman has said. Karl Truman would like to see that term disappear, because it is not specific enough.

41:10

And if you heard my interview with Karl Truman on the Janet Mefford Show a couple months ago, basically what he said was, the pressure of Western culture, especially on the subject of homosexuality, is going to fracture, with finality, hopefully, this strange coalition of what's called evangelicalism.

41:34

And we're going to have to be much more specific about what we believe. And of course, I as a Reformed Baptist have been very specific about what

41:41

I believe, and it's very clear what we believe. And it is important to be able to say those things, and to be able to define those things.

41:50

But certainly, when it comes to the conflict with Rome, once again, what Mr. Reid is saying is,

41:57

I didn't know. I didn't know the first written debate of the Reformation was between Luther and Erasmus.

42:04

I don't know what the issues were. I've not read the books. They're not philosophical enough. It wasn't part of my philosophical training.

42:12

And no, I've actually never read the Institutes or anything like that. So, Sola Scriptura versus the definition of tradition, the church, and the issue of the papacy historically.

42:23

It's just not where I was. Just not a part of my thing. And like I said, okay, you're not alone.

42:34

But it is no major surprise when you decide to, you're out there in the middle of the time and go, yeah,

42:41

I can check out that side for a while. Okay. Not surprising.

42:47

That's what happens to people who paddle around in the middle of rivers. Eventually, they want to land. Eventually, they want to dock the boat.

42:56

And that's what has happened. Now listen to this. Here he gives the realm of evangelical theology.

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And what he's evidently thinking, I guess, is that these poor evangelicals, they can't figure out what they believe about these things.

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Listen carefully. There is nothing he mentions that you will not find multiple views on amongst the

43:22

Roman Catholic communion itself. You say, well, there's some of them. There's clear doctrinal teaching.

43:29

Yeah. When was the last time Rome got rid of anybody for questioning any of these things?

43:37

I mean, I just guess he hasn't had enough time to meet up with the liberal Catholics yet. The ones the

43:43

Pope won't get rid of. Could, but won't. I heard the Pope did excommunicate someone recently.

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He excommunicated someone recently for giving the mass to a dog. Congratulations.

43:59

Good. When the Pope shows up at Boston College and cleans house, I might listen to what he has to say till then.

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Sorry. Ain't interested. Ain't interested. Because if you don't really believe what you believe strong enough to do something about it, when you've got the power to do something about it, why, why should

44:17

I believe it? Because it makes me wonder whether you believe it. You know, anyways, listen to this realm of evangelical theology.

44:26

These are the disagreements that you can hold within the nature of salvation, whether or not you can lose your salvation,

44:43

Baptist creation versus evolution, the nature of hell, the nature of creation versus evolution.

44:50

Excuse me. What's Rome's official position on that? Where, where is the official leadership of the

44:56

Roman Catholic church on that? Um, pretty obvious, isn't it? The nature of divorce, abortion, relationship between the law and the gospel, the views of sanctification, the very nature of faith, faith relationships for reason.

45:11

Who runs the church? Can you get remarried? What is it to be married? How am I at home? And how do we get our

45:23

Bible? And I remember thinking, there's no way to answer this.

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I'm at a loss. Again, this is not an extensive list. There's no way to answer this.

45:39

Uh, wow. I can't think of a single one that we could not give a meaningful biblical response to without having to abandon ourselves to Rome.

45:48

And it depends on which priest you talk to as to what answer you're going to get. Amazing.

45:55

Absolutely amazing. I mean, these 10 or 15 people are talking about going Roman. Why don't you go find 10 or 15 different priests and find out how many answers you get to these very questions.

46:04

If you think that they're somehow going to give you the final word. And then of course, well, they're not infallible. Well, why don't you talk to the new

46:10

Pope? He gives lots of really interesting answers now, doesn't he? Well, you're really probably not going to get a chance to chat with him, but you never know.

46:20

He is talking to newspaper reporters a lot. Then of course you get the very surface level, oh, the ancient church smells of Catholicism.

46:34

Uh, and then you just, you know, whenever I hear that, I just want to go, wow, what, you've been reading jurgens again?

46:41

How about doing some serious reading of the early church and asking yourself the question, is this

46:48

Rome? Where's, where's the immaculate conception? Where's the bodily assumption?

46:54

Where's the infallibility of the bishop room? Where are these things that have defined Roman Catholicism to this day?

47:01

They're just, it's not there. They're not a functioning part of these things. And that's why Newman had to do what

47:06

Newman did is because he realized that. But when you go back,

47:13

I did not find the faith that I was taught. I could not believe right now.

47:21

And sometimes I just struggle because I was, I don't think I was, but I felt deceived in a way because in the ancient church, you find apostolic succession.

47:33

They're not debating baptism as a, how you enter into the church.

47:40

Wait, wait a minute. They weren't debating apostolic succession. Really? You bet they were.

47:46

The nature of it, what it meant, who had it. There are all sorts of debates about that. But obviously when you talk about apostolic succession, um, which apostle taught what

47:57

Rome teaches about Mary today again? Um, which one, which one taught what

48:03

Rome teaches about the papacy today? Which one taught, uh, what Rome teaches about, uh, all the priesthood, the priest being an altar

48:11

Christus, uh, any of that kind of stuff. How about let's talk purgatory indulgences. Let's get some apostles on that one.

48:17

Don't give me apostolic succession for these utterly unapostolic teachings.

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I mean, that is, that is the weasel word. Well, you know, I believe all these things cause uh, you know, if they've got apostolic succession, then they can do this.

48:34

Which is more important to follow what the apostles taught or to follow people who claim that they're following after the apostles, but not teaching what they taught.

48:42

Which is real apostolic succession is the real question that has to be asked. The real presence of Jesus in the

48:49

Eucharist that believe in a visible church and so on. There's an ancient church that smells

48:55

Catholic. Now listen to what comes up next. It's very short, but it's sad.

49:03

It just smells Catholic. And then I turn to the reformers, they're Catholic.

49:08

The reformers are Catholic. Okay. Just good evidence that Mr.

49:16

Reed has never actually read the Institutes of the Christian Religion, but listen to the examples he gives. And if you're listening while driving, please try to drive off the road.

49:32

Catch that? Let me try it again, just in case you missed it. Um, really important. Okay. Luther believed in devotions to Mary.

49:42

Which Luther? At what point in his life? And what about the dogmas that had not yet been defined,

49:49

Mr. Reed? Since, for example, I can show you popes who have taught against the concept of immaculate conception and had not been defined until 18, was not defined until 1854.

50:00

How about bodily assumption? 1950. Did Luther ever say about that? No, he didn't. And then this one,

50:09

I'll just play it for you. Calvin did not believe that you could just interpret the

50:17

Bible any way you wanted. I understand. I understand why

50:23

Mr. Reed does not ever mention Sola Scriptura in his conversion, because he had no earthly idea what it meant.

50:32

No earthly idea! Anybody who thinks that Sola Scriptura means that you can interpret the

50:39

Bible any way you like it has no earthly idea what any of the Reformers said, what any modern

50:46

Protestants say. This is someone who has never done their homework on the subject. It's amazing!

50:52

And I can say that as someone who has defended that topic in debate since August of 1990.

51:00

And we can prove it. I don't have to just make the claim. We actually can, you know, like, show you recordings.

51:08

This is a common misrepresentation. If he had just read the Westminster Confession of Faith, if he had just read the

51:15

Savoy Declaration, if he had just read almost any of the meaningful Protestant statements of faith, would any of them say,

51:22

Sola Scriptura means you can just interpret the Bible any way you want it? That is as bad a misrepresentation of one's former faith as a

51:32

Roman Catholic saying, well, we used to say to worship the Pope! That's a misrepresentation, and you have other direction, right?

51:40

Amazing. Just amazing. If you think that's

51:45

Sola Scriptura, then you've got some homework to do. You've got some homework to do. Clear evidence of a non -functional understanding of where he was coming from.

52:00

So it's not shocking he ends up someplace else. The faith that I've been given was basically 200 years old.

52:14

And yet, the Marian dogmas of the Immaculate Conception is only 160 years old.

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159. It's dogmatic formulation and bodily assumption? That's not even 70 yet.

52:31

Papal infallibility, 1870s. Interesting. You've got to be careful when living in glass houses with that rock thing.

52:41

Anyways, we continue on. Marian devotion is the historical norm.

52:57

Really? When does history start? Because, again, dogmatically, to be a

53:06

Roman Catholic today, you must believe in all of the defined Marian dogmas.

53:12

Show me anybody in your early church to believe what you believe about Mary, if that's the historical norm.

53:19

But it's, of course, not the historical norm at all. Oh, there's development over time.

53:25

It's not biblically based. It's a degradation, not an advancement. But still, even at that, you cannot find the early church doing what you do and believing what you believe.

53:40

It can't be done. I know it can't be done. It's pretty sad.

53:47

Not having any sort of devotion to Mary, not worshipping Mary, but having a personal devotion to her is basically standard practice throughout most of the

53:54

Christian world. And as I'm explaining it to him, you're the person. So as he's explaining that, out of ignorance, not having done any first level study at all, all of a sudden he wants to engage in it.

54:08

So this is just pure emotion. Emotion based upon ignorance, based upon bigotry. By his own words,

54:16

I'm not making this stuff up. Now, there's only two sections left, and you might say, well,

54:21

I thought you were going for an hour and a half. Well, there's a big section here, and then a summary section.

54:29

He reads through all of, no, not all. That's the important part.

54:36

That's one of the main issues. He reads through the entire section of John chapter 6.

54:46

And in the process, it demonstrates to us that theology matters, and that when a theological school is based upon a rejection of Reformed theology, and I will lay this directly at the feet of Dr.

55:12

Norman Geisler, that it'll have a result. It'll have a result, and here it is.

55:21

Clearly, this man had never worked through John chapter 6 in a meaningful fashion to recognize its emphasis upon the sovereignty of God and salvation.

55:30

And some of you will recall that when I wrote the Potter's Freedom response to Dr. Geisler, I wrote to him while writing the book and asked him why there was no meaningful exegesis of John 637 in the book.

55:45

And he wrote back and said it was fully exegeted, and so I wrote back and gave him every single word that had been written about John chapter 6 verse 37 in the entirety of the book.

55:56

All of it. And all he responded was on a note card that said, if you publish,

56:02

I will respond. That was it. He wouldn't talk about it, wouldn't discuss it. And the reality is,

56:07

Norman Geisler, I've never heard him even attempt a meaningful exegesis of this text. Not once.

56:13

Not once. And so here you have a student of Dr.

56:20

Geisler, and the educational methodology based upon his theology.

56:26

And he reads John 6 and he ends up a Roman Catholic. What leads to that?

56:34

Theology matters. The synergism of Norman Geisler and the synergism of Rome are just different flavors of the same ice cream.

56:48

The boundary line is monergism versus synergism. Always has been, always will be.

56:54

You can dislike that, say I don't think that's too simplistic. But whether God saves or makes men savable is all the difference in the world when it comes to the gospel.

57:09

And it's significant to me that Mr. Reed will start his reading, not in the section that defines

57:16

Geisler's intention, but afterwards. He's missed it. He's missed it. He missed

57:24

John 635, and in John 635, Jesus lays out the categories that Mr.

57:34

Reed misses and does not understand. Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not hunger, and he who believes in me will never thirst.

57:46

Now notice, here you have hungering and thirsting. Here you have physical words, and how are they satiated?

57:56

By chewing on something? By taking a drink? No. They are satiated by coming and believing.

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The one who comes to me, the one coming to me, the one coming to me, well, that one, that one will not hunger.

58:20

How does coming to Christ satiate hunger? Coming to Christ is spiritual activity.

58:26

It's an ongoing thing. It's a present tense participle. The one coming, ha -er kamanos pros eme, just as pistouho is in the present tense participle as well, ha -pistouhon ais eme, will never thirst.

58:46

Coming and believing are spiritual activities. Therefore, the hungering and thirsting is spiritual.

58:55

It's not physical. That's why he's going to say the words I've spoken to are spiritual. They're not fleshly, and Rome will never hear it, cannot hear it, because Rome has proclaimed her own infallibility.

59:09

Cannot hear what it's actually about. Can't be. Mm -mm. This has got to be, this has got to be our altar

59:18

Christus, our another Christ priest, and his sacramental power. He calls

59:24

Jesus down from heaven and renders him present upon the altar by his sacramental authority.

59:33

He says, hoc es corpus meum, and there it is. Don't give us biblical teaching.

59:40

No, no, no, no, no, no. That's the context.

59:48

He has said, the one coming to me will not hunger, the one believing me will never thirst, and I said to you that you have seen me, and yet you do not believe.

59:56

He's explaining the unbelief of these men. They're unbelief, and the reason they're going to walk away is because he wouldn't stop saying it.

01:00:04

He wouldn't stop pointing to that. He kept saying, no one can come to me unless it's been given to him by the

01:00:13

Father. Sovereignty from beginning to end. The very sovereignty roamed by a sacramental system denies.

01:00:23

It's right there in front of him, and he cannot see it, and it's a tragedy. It's a tragedy.

01:00:29

I pray that God will open his eyes, because he's obviously never seen it before. Then he skips over, all the

01:00:36

Father gives me will come to me, and the one coming to me I will I will never cast out. Then the Son says,

01:00:41

I've come down out of heaven to do my Father's will. What's the will of my Father? That of all he's given me, I lose nothing but raised up in the last day.

01:00:48

He is a perfect Savior. He's not in a box in another room trying to save, if you will but cooperate.

01:00:56

That's not the Jesus of John 6, Mr. Reed. Don't even go there. Don't even think of it, and so he actually picks up in verse 41, and I'll let you hear what he says, and I'll break in and comment.

01:01:24

I knew that was happening.

01:01:33

What's he being drawn to? What's he being drawn to? He's interpreting this being drawn to the

01:01:42

Eucharist, to something that the people at the time that Jesus said these words could never have understood it to mean.

01:01:49

This is before the cross, folks. This is before the cross. If you make this the

01:01:54

Eucharist, you're going to have to say, as most liberals do, that this really didn't have anything to do.

01:02:00

That this is not a historical statement. This is just John projecting something later on. This never really happened because there never was anybody in the synagogue at Capernaum for Jesus to talk to.

01:02:11

That this is just simply a theological point. But if you actually believe what the Bible says, Jesus is explaining the unbelief of these men, and he's saying, you don't believe in me.

01:02:26

You haven't been drawn to me. The drawing of John chapter 6 is the effective, efficient drawing of the

01:02:36

Father of his elect people unto Jesus Christ, not to some sacrament that requires a priesthood that won't develop for hundreds of years.

01:02:50

And that's why he says, no one could come to me unless he draws him, and I'll raise him up in the last day. Everyone he draws is raised up in the last day.

01:02:58

This has to do with the elect people of God. And the only way to understand

01:03:05

Jason Reed's interpretation of this, which by the way, he ain't no priest, so he ain't no infallible person either, is he?

01:03:10

He's not the Pope. But the only way to understand consistently his interpretation is this whole idea of Protestants as separated brethren is absurd.

01:03:22

Because he's going to read all the way down to, if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within yourselves. If that's the

01:03:28

Eucharist, then Protestants are lost, right? At least be an honest

01:03:36

Catholic and be a theanite, because that's the only way to be an honest Catholic. It really is. I mean, that's certainly what many of the

01:03:44

Popes did intend. Unum Sanctum, no question about it. You can reinterpret it in the light of modern stuff all you want.

01:03:51

That's what the Pope meant, we all know it. Historically, in context, that's what he meant. You know that.

01:03:57

But I continue on. Okay, stop. Something else.

01:04:06

So, no one comes to him unless the Father draws him. And I will raise him up at the last day.

01:04:12

He is written in the Prophets, and they shall be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.

01:04:19

Why isn't he explicating this? This is explaining what the nature of the drawing is. He even skipped the word all.

01:04:24

They shall all be taught of God. This is talking about the fact that the elect hear from God. This is about God's election.

01:04:31

This is all about explaining unbelief, and he's missed every bit of it. Every bit of it. Okay, how could anyone standing in the synagogue at Capernaum have had any earthly idea of what

01:05:29

Rome interprets this text to mean? How could they? So these words didn't have any meaning to them?

01:05:38

Jesus let them wander off without explaining, well look, I'm going to found a church, and then a couple hundred years down the road, we're going to develop this thing called the priesthood, and we're going to make it a sacramental priesthood, and then somewhere around the turn of the millennium,

01:05:52

Aristotelian categories are going to come in, so we can explain accidents and presents and all that kind of stuff, and then eventually we're, you know, at the fourth ladder in council, we're going to make sure you all understand transubstantiation, and that's how it's all going to work, right?

01:06:07

See folks, if you want to become Roman Catholic, fine, but don't mess my Bible up to get there, and don't tell people it teaches something that it doesn't.

01:06:18

There's nothing in John 6 about accidents and substance or anything else. It's about God's sovereignty and salvation, and the fact that when he draws you to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is all you need.

01:06:31

You don't need Mary taking your prayers into the presence of God when you know Jesus, and that's how this whole thing started, remember?

01:06:42

Remember? Of course, at this point, I'm thinking, how? What is this?

01:06:48

Of course, the Jews have the same thing. The Jews, they discuss it amongst themselves, saying, how can this man give us his flesh to eat?

01:06:56

The irony is, Rome makes the exact same error the Jews did. The Jews understood it physically, the

01:07:02

Roman Catholics understand it physically. They make the same error. They both miss where Jesus defined coming and believing as the actions that fulfill this hunger.

01:07:12

They're not physical things. That's the context, which is why he did not start back there.

01:07:21

He skipped it. He skipped where the context defines the very terms. That's the only way

01:07:27

Rome can do it. Now, he gets that from St.

01:07:52

Genes, and St. Genes likes to emphasize that trogon. Trogon means to chew on something.

01:07:59

Every word is defined by its context. If you had started at verse 35, you'd never come to this absurd conclusion, because it's the

01:08:09

Jews that misunderstood this as physical. It's interesting. It's ha trogon.

01:08:16

They never comment on what that means. It's a present tense, my friend.

01:08:21

It's ongoing action. Do you do it in an ongoing way?

01:08:27

Are you at mass 24 -7? Are you eating all the time? If you want literalism, then you need to explain that.

01:08:34

But you see, the real parallel, my friends, is between the present tense participle, ha trogon, and ha pistuon, the one believing, ha er kamanos, the one coming.

01:08:45

It is descriptive of true saving faith. It's so obvious if you just let

01:08:52

John speak for John and not read it in light of developments that took place a millennia later.

01:09:01

It's so clear. Eat the flesh of the

01:09:07

Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

01:09:14

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, and my blood is drink in me.

01:09:26

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, and I in him.

01:09:43

So is that literal too? Is that what makes you abide in Christ? Are you physically caused?

01:09:51

I mean, it's one thing for him to abide in you if you eat him. How do you abide in him? Does he eat you?

01:09:57

I mean, this is absurd, isn't it? But you're the ones forcing the absurd literalism on the words that the text has already shown us are not talking about physical categories.

01:10:09

So how is your abiding? He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.

01:10:18

Where's that language used elsewhere? Oh, John 14. Oh, what's it then?

01:10:24

Oh, it's the Holy Spirit abiding within us. It's spiritual. Yeah, it's right there.

01:10:33

Wow. John's consistent with himself, isn't he? Yeah, he is. If you just let him be. If you just let him be.

01:10:41

But you see, Rome can't because Rome can't be corrected because Rome's infallible. As the living

01:10:47

Father sent me and I live because of the Father. So he who eats me will live because of me.

01:10:53

Now, as I know now, it's not a magic wand. It's not a magic wand.

01:11:18

Do you take offense of this? Don't you know this is a parable? No, I didn't say that. Don't you know this is just symbolic language?

01:11:25

No, it doesn't say that. Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending where he was?

01:11:36

Seeing the Son of Man going up is... I'm thinking,

01:11:41

I'm not a believer. Now notice, the very next words absolutely obliterate the absurdly acontextual interpretation he's given.

01:11:59

They're going to say, here's the word, it is the Spirit who gives life. We just saw abiding in me, you know,

01:12:06

Spirit right there. It is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing.

01:12:11

The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are life. Let's see if he senses the problem.

01:12:18

It was in the Spirit that gives life and the flesh is no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and life, but there are some of you that do not believe.

01:12:29

Missed it. Missed it. There are some of you who do not believe. Oh yeah, that means there are some of you who do not believe in the

01:12:34

Roman Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist. And the very next words of Jesus are, where Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.

01:12:46

Not in the Eucharist. Go back to the beginning. You do not believe.

01:12:52

All the Father gives me will come to me. This is about salvation, my friends. There's no question about it.

01:12:59

It's so obvious. It's so painfully clear. It's me.

01:13:08

I believe it. Here's what changed. I read this. Jesus is

01:13:14

God. I read this. I'm thinking Jesus Christ is God.

01:13:23

I've heard that my whole life. This divinity is screaming at me because he's saying

01:13:28

I'm telling you something and it's just because I'm saying it. Yeah, it is enough.

01:13:35

It is enough. No question about it. So he talks about joy in the Church, and then he gives a summary statement.

01:13:43

And I want to just compare and contrast summary statement, and we will conclude our time in considering this particular concept, this particular presentation.

01:14:01

Yeah, I'm passionate about this. But listen to how he concludes.

01:14:08

It's even after all the applause, you know, you've joined the Church. It's never conversion to Jesus.

01:14:14

You know, he talks about his conversion to Jesus, stone silent. I joined the Church. Woohoo! I've certainly noticed that with the coming home network and stuff like that.

01:14:24

Yeah, I became a Christian, but then I became Roman Catholic. And everybody's all excited.

01:14:31

It's conversion to a Church that they're excited about. Major difference. Major difference.

01:14:37

Major problem. Here's a summary statement. So to summarize here, why did someone who fought become

01:14:46

Catholic? Because I believe in the Scriptures. I believe in the Bible. You believe in the Scriptures, you believe in the

01:14:52

Bible, and that's why you're Roman Catholic. So you believe when the Bible says in Romans 5, 1, Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through the

01:14:58

Lord Jesus Christ, right? So you can look back upon your justification, except Rome teaches that you can lose your justification, and hence not have peace with God.

01:15:08

And that you keep getting re -justified in the sacramental process, right? That's what you believe.

01:15:14

And when it talks about Peter, it says he's our fellow elder, not the head of the Church, right? So you believe the

01:15:22

Bible, and that's why you don't believe those parts of the Bible? Okay.

01:15:29

And I believe that the Church gave us the Scripture. The Church gave us the

01:15:35

Scripture, which is why the Scripture pre -existed the Church, right? Oh, well, it was the Old Testament Church. Okay, but the

01:15:40

Old Testament Church didn't have those books that you've accepted as canon, starting, well, in April of 1546.

01:15:48

And so, how does that work? I thought God gave the

01:15:53

Scriptures to the Church. That's Christ speaking to his bride. But you see, that's the problem with Rome, is that Rome can't have a dialogue with Christ, because Christ's voice has now been subsumed under an authority.

01:16:03

So it's only a monologue, which is why you can't ever have true reformation within the Roman system. That it has a teaching authority to preserve that Gospel, why

01:16:13

Jesus died on the cross? Combat error!

01:16:22

What if she then promulgates the error? Who corrects her? The dominant woman rises, and I believe that Jesus taught us...

01:16:32

Yeah, Jesus actually taught us to follow his disciples, who taught the ones for all, finished, not to be represented, perfecting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

01:16:55

Now, listen to this. The Catholic Church simply has no rival.

01:17:01

Listen to this description. Let me just contrast that.

01:18:12

Roman Catholicism, it's got worship and beauty and the greatest thinkers, and it's got the

01:18:19

Summa Theologica. Long before Thomas, these words repented.

01:18:30

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it's the power of God, for it is written,

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I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and the cleverness of the clever, I will set aside. Where is the wise man?

01:18:45

Where is the scry? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

01:18:52

For since in the wisdom of God, the world, through its wisdom, did not come to know God, God was well pleased the foolishness of the to save those who believe.

01:19:02

For indeed, Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified to Jews, a stumbling block,

01:19:08

Gentiles, more than us, foolishness. But to those who are the called, both

01:19:14

Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

01:19:22

And then listen to these words in light of what Mr. Reid just said. For consider your calling, brethren. There were not many wise, according to the flesh.

01:19:30

That's Safoy. Safoy, wise, yeah, philosophy. There were not many wise, according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.

01:19:42

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world, to shame the things that are strong, the base things of the world, the despised

01:19:50

God has chosen, the things that are not, so that he may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God.

01:19:59

I just heard boasting. I just heard boasting. No rival, oh, big thinkers, big brains, so that no man may boast before God.

01:20:13

That's why verse 30 says of 1 Corinthians chapter 1, but by his doing. By him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification, redemption, so that just as it is written, let him who boasts, boast in the

01:20:30

Lord. Major contrast to the, we have no rival apologetic, with which

01:20:39

Mr. Reid ended his testimony. I will not call it a testimony of his apostasy, because it's painfully obvious to me that Mr.

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Reid never knew. He had not been introduced to the biblical truths, the

01:20:55

Reformation. He didn't understand the issues of the gospel.

01:21:02

He did not understand the issues, historically, that separated Rome from all those churches that stood against her, many of whom today don't stand against her any longer, because they're no longer convinced of what they believe.

01:21:15

They have degraded in their commitment, first and foremost, the Word of God.

01:21:23

But when I was asked to respond to this, and I listened to it, believe me, I've heard considerably more compelling arguments than what

01:21:33

I heard in Mr. Reid's testimony. And I know that there are some of you at SES, you just like Jason a lot.

01:21:40

He's a nice guy. I'm sure he is. But let me talk to you directly. If you're one of those 10 to 15 people planning on swimming the

01:21:50

Tiber River, I just have to ask you why. I mean, if all you're concerned about is philosophy and smoking pipes and cigars, then why not?

01:22:03

I mean, if that's attractive to you, then go ahead. Doesn't bother me at all.

01:22:11

But see, here's the problem. Let me explain to you why I could never do that. As I've said before, when

01:22:18

I rise in mourning, I don't fear the wrath of God. Why?

01:22:26

Because I've never thought about it? Because I just take it for granted? No. No. I don't fear the wrath of God, because I know what has been done in my behalf will avail before that holy

01:22:38

God each and every day. And I don't have to go, well, you know,

01:22:44

I need to get to Jesus today. I need to go get in the car and drive to where Jesus is and get some more grace, get a little more propitiation.

01:22:53

Because you see, I approached what's supposed to be the sacrifice of Christ just the day before yesterday.

01:23:01

And the priest said, hoc est corpus meum, and this is my body. But according to Rome, I can do that 10 times, 100 times, 1 ,000 times, 10 ,000 times, 25 ,000 times in my life.

01:23:18

And still die impure. Still die impure. In fact, I could die and go to hell.

01:23:24

I could commit a mortal sin, not avail myself of the sacramental forgiveness, and go to hell.

01:23:32

Same sacrifice, allegedly. And so I'm gonna have to get in the car and I'm gonna have to go visit

01:23:38

Jesus again, because I'm not perfected by his one sacrifice. And so I'm gonna have to go stand in front of an altar

01:23:44

Christus, another Christ, and he's gonna have to sacramentally bring Christ down from heaven and render him present, body, soul, blood, and divinity upon the

01:23:52

Roman altar. And that's how I'm supposed to somehow improve my relationship with God.

01:24:03

You see, the reason I could never become a Roman Catholic is because I am absolutely dependent upon the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, the perfect righteousness of another.

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I have nothing else to give. I know God is holy. And if I do not have the righteousness of Jesus Christ, nothing else will avail.

01:24:24

But you see, Rome can't give me the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It has no finished sacrifice. It has no finished work.

01:24:33

You see, the whole argument, Mr. Reid, and those of you who are planning on going across the

01:24:38

Tiber River, if you've never read it, let me introduce it to you. The whole argument in the book of Hebrews is that the one -time finished sacrifice of Jesus Christ perfects those for whom it's made.

01:24:49

That's why there's nothing to go back to. And one of the main arguments that the writer uses is the fact that in the repetitive sacrifices of the

01:25:00

Old Covenant, there is a reminder of sin. A reminder of sin. You see, the high priest, when he would go into the holiest place with the warm bowl of blood, would see that he had been there before.

01:25:18

That the blood was still dried upon the place of mercy. And that was a reminder.

01:25:26

A reminder of the fact that this blood of a goat, a bull, is not going to ever cleanse anybody.

01:25:32

It was pointing to something greater. The fact that it had to be repeated over and over again meant it was imperfect.

01:25:42

And that's why there's only one sacrifice of Christ. It's not represented so that you're never perfected.

01:25:50

It's one time. Singular. Finished. Done. It is finished, Jesus said. Not it has just begun.

01:25:58

And what's really, really interesting is that when the writer to the

01:26:04

Hebrews speaks of that repetitive sacrifice, he says there is a yearly anamnesis of sins.

01:26:16

Reminder. A repetitive sacrifice, which is what you are limited to in Rome, in the mass, is an anamnesis of sin.

01:26:28

Because if you have to come back, you weren't perfected. So, all it does is remind you of the continuing presence of sin.

01:26:37

But that word is used elsewhere in the New Testament. And I'm so thankful that it is.

01:26:45

Because that's the word that is used when Jesus said, do this in remembrance, anamnesis of me.

01:26:52

You see, Christians have a new covenant. And that new covenant has a single perfecting sacrifice.

01:27:00

And so, you see, I don't have a reminder of my sins. I have a reminder of my sin bearer.

01:27:06

And that's why I have peace with God. Now, if that wasn't taught to you in seminary or in your churches,

01:27:14

I'm sorry. But you can't blame your seminary or your churches because you possess the word of God.

01:27:24

I can never go to Rome because Rome has nothing to offer. But a treadmill of penances and sacraments and never being able to know, have you done everything that's necessary to attain the justification?

01:27:41

In the words of Ludwig, I have justification not because of who

01:27:47

I am, because of who Jesus Christ is. Now, if those words meant nothing to you, then enjoy your philosophy.

01:27:58

Have fun with your cigars and pipes reading Thomas. But if those words meant something to you, you can never go to Rome.

01:28:09

You can never go there. Because anyone who has actually ever truly bowed the knee to Jesus Christ and understands my absolute dependent upon him, that I am absolutely dependent upon him, can never give that up.

01:28:26

Can never trade that in. That's why these things are important.

01:28:32

That's why we've taken the time to respond to Mr. Reed. I pray for him. By his own testimony, he's never known what the issues were.

01:28:40

He's never known. I hope these words will be taken the way they're intended.

01:28:47

People say, you're pretty tough on him. Look, folks, I don't matter and he doesn't matter. The gospel is not about feelings.

01:28:59

These are truths that people have died for and you don't play games with them.

01:29:07

We're talking about eternity here. I am irrelevant.

01:29:14

He is irrelevant. Jesus said, if anyone would be embarrassed of me and my gospel,

01:29:22

I will be embarrassed of him. I will not be embarrassed of the gospel. Oh yeah,

01:29:29

I get a lot more places to go speak if I wouldn't speak like this.

01:29:36

But you wouldn't want me if I was willing to do it. So there you go. There's much more that can be said.

01:29:43

If you're serious, if you're one of those people, you're thinking about going to Rome, I dare you, watch all the debates

01:29:52

I've done with Mitch Pacwa. Watch every one of them. It's only five. Papacy, justification, you can't watch those two because the one

01:30:00

Roman Catholic guy who has the videos is sitting on them and will never let them see the light of day. But you can watch the debates on the papacy, sola scriptura, and the sola scriptura one was just posted recently.

01:30:14

The papacy one, coming. And then we did one on the priesthood.

01:30:19

Only one on the priesthood we've had. How many people you know have dealt with that? So watch the three, listen to the other two, and ask yourself a question.

01:30:32

Is this the infallible church speaking? Or can a really strong argument be made that these are merely the traditions of men?

01:30:41

And then read the books. There are some awesome books out there, but I don't get the feeling

01:30:46

Mr. Reid bothered to find William Whitaker. Goods work.

01:30:52

Salmon's work. Don't think he looked at those books. It's a shame, but the information's there.

01:31:00

Take the time. Be serious. Consider it well. Thanks for listening to Dividing Lines today.

01:31:06

My name is James White, and we'll be back, Lord willing, right now. My plan is on Wednesday.