Loving and Engaging Mormons

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

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Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

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Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

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Yes! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pasta.

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When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived

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Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

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For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

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In other words, he's worried they might actually put up with someone coming and preaching a different Christ, a different gospel, and a different spirit having a different spirit.

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Hey, that's good. It's like the Cosby Show remix. It's a no copyright, retro 80s, funky jazz, hop instrumental, copyright free music,

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Sundance remix. I like Heathcliff Huxtable. And it's brought to you by Peps and DK.

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No idea who they are. Just found them for the show. It's kind of cool, actually. Let's go back to that for a second here.

02:31

Hang on now. Let's feel it. If you don't like that,

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I can't help you. Yeah. All right, everyone.

02:44

Welcome back to another episode of Apology Radio. Yes, I am alive.

02:51

It's been a while. You joined the club. It's a miracle. I survived the

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Rona. I want a t -shirt. I want a t -shirt. So it turns out God's law is actually really good.

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It's pretty great. That kind of goes without saying. By the way, I'm the ninja. That's the bear. What up?

03:09

That's Wade and Andrew right there. You know this guy over here from Cultish. Do you know how many people I had walk up to me at the

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SBC? And they were like, yeah, I learned about you through Cultish. And I was like, oh, that's good.

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That's right on. Lots of people just wanted to tell you that I had two or three people.

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I think two I could think of that told me that they came out of a cult as a result of listening to Cultish. Wow. Praise God. So praise the

03:32

Lord. Wade and Drew Sorsini. Yes. Good to meet you guys for the first time.

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You've been on here before, haven't you? Welcome to the show. I've never met you guys. Look at these twinsies. Look at all these twinsies, guys, that came out.

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We're going to wear the same shirt today like a bunch of nerds. He's trying to make fun of us because he's the odd man out. That's true.

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I don't have one. No, I have one. I just don't like green. Wow. That's God's color, bro.

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I mean, he made all the colors. He did make all the colors. He also made snakes, which

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I don't like, and spiders, which I don't like. Sharks, which I'm terrified of.

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Yeah. Is that shark week? I don't go too far out into the ocean because of God's wonderful creation of the shark.

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Right. We had a situation in Kauai once. Jeff and I were kind of far out.

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Not like far out. We were far out of the ocean. That was for you. We're in the water. Far out, bro.

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We're so far out. All of a sudden, we hear this guy from the beach going, Ark! Ark! We're like, no!

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He was saying Mark. He's calling his son Mark. We're like, bro, you can't. If your son's name is

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Mark, you can't ask for him in the water. Did you say Ork? What are we, in Middle Earth here?

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You call his middle name. Or his last name. Mr. Johnson! My son

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Mark! I'm sure that was scary. Mark!

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Mark! I was unhappy with that guy that day. Anyway, welcome everybody to the show.

05:17

Very important show for you guys today. I was saying God's law is good. Because we went, what is it, a year and a half?

05:24

A year and a half. Apology at church. We never shut down. We never closed down worship. We gathered the whole way through.

05:31

We had no major outbreaks. When we had somebody who caught the COVID, they got the rona from work or whatever, we had the rule at church that you immediately lock down.

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You immediately lock down. And if you've been in contact with family or friends, maybe those people wait a couple days before they come back to church.

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Just to be extra safe. We did things like as soon as service is dismissed, when it first happened, we were like, just everyone immediately depart.

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No shaking hands. No hugging. Just go outside. And do your fellowship outside in the

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Arizona heat, which will burn up the rona. And we did great! We did great.

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Luke got the rona. Around Christmas time, Wade got it. And you guys did great.

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You made your way through it. Didn't have any super spreader events, anything like that at all. But I went to the

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SBC with the assumption that God's law is sort of the standard for all of us.

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God's law is if you're sick, you quarantine. You never quarantine the healthy in God's law, but you quarantine the sick.

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Well, this is the SBC and apparently they don't mind having people who plagiarize as their president. So the law of God may not apply to the

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SBC. Yeah, well. Just throwing that out there. Hashtag plagiargate. Plagiargate.

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I think actually Linton said that. He said that. I thought it was totally original.

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Anyway. So apparently somebody came to the SBC actively presenting symptoms.

07:03

Not breathing. Not able to breathe. Really, really ill. They were breathing. They were having a hard time breathing. They're like, what?

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That guy's not breathing. Nah, he's fine. And apparently, apparently, apparently, and now

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I can't say the word apparently without thinking about that kid. Without thinking about Minnie Marcus. And spread it to a number of pastors and their families actually.

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So I came back from the SBC. It was Thursday when I got back. Thursday night I started feeling really, really bad.

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So I was fine Thursday. I got home and felt really, really bad. And Friday it was like, oh, we're in this.

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And I think it was Sunday or Monday. A couple days. It was like four or five days into my RONA that literally my wife's like, you need to eat healthy.

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Take care of yourself. So she got me an acai bowl. And it was delicious, by the way. And I'm like three bites in.

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I'm like, oh, you did a great job with this. And she's like, yeah, I think this is my best one. And then I took another bite and zero flavor.

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Zero smells. And I was like, this is weird. And I took another bite and it was nothing. So then

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I went and I didn't say anything. I just went into the kitchen. And by the way, I'm staying away from my family. I went into the kitchen even not knowing it was

08:11

RONA. You started eating it raw. And I started like finding things to smell. And I was like, I can't smell. I can't taste.

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I took some essential oils. And I was like, nothing. And so I was like, everybody, stay far away from me.

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I'm confident this is the RONA. And so I went and took a test like two days later or so. And it was like, you are, capital

08:31

P, positive. You are positive. So my daughter got it, which is crazy because I really did stay away.

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Even if it was just a sickness of staying away from my family. But I stayed away. I really worked hard to like wash my hands and like just get out of everyone's space.

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And then my daughter got it. And she got it in a bad, bad, bad way for two days.

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And then we took a special treatment, which the FDA does not approve of necessarily. And she was over it by day three.

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And I mean on her feet, she's like, I'm good. Do I have to quarantine? I was like, unfortunately, yes. You are stuck with us for the next 10 days.

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And then we thought we were over it completely as a family. And then it passed on to, you know, my. So basically the

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Durbin household has been on complete lockdown for about a month. So I haven't been at church. I haven't been preaching.

09:19

I haven't been on Apology Radio. And we're back. We're back with a very important show. We're back with a very important show.

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And we're back with a show that is going to announce something that if you are in Utah, if you are in the Salt Lake -y,

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Sandy, Draper -y, Provo -y area, you're going to want to know about this.

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Because Apology Church, Lord willing, is going to Utah to planch, to planch, to planch.

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It's been a while since I've been speaking a lot. So it's been a, we're going to plant a church in Utah.

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And we have an announcement to make. So stay with us because I'm not going to tell you what it is until after. But we are going to be in Utah very, very soon.

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And you'll be able to come and hang out with us and hear about what God's, what we have planned. And hopefully

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God will be blessing in the state of Utah. And so, we're here. And that is The Baird. I'm Jeff.

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I'm Wade. Andrew. And we're going to talk about Mormonism. I have received so many encouraging messages.

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I just got a message yesterday, Luke, from a 16 -year -old, a 16 -year -old

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Latter -day, ex -Latter -day Saint, a person who came to Christ, a sister in Christ now.

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And she is now in Christ as a result of watching our contest. Praise the Lord. Praise God. And she's experiencing,

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I pray for her, her name is Sophia. She is experiencing a lot of persecution in her family, devout

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Mormon family. And she said, I lived in a Mormon household for the past four years, and your sermons and videos were used by God to speak to me.

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One of your videos in particular prompted me to buy a Bible. My family wasn't terribly excited about me ordering a

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Bible that isn't paired with the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price. Yeah, and Doctrine and Covenants. That's right. I read the

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Bible, and I was born again a believer. My family has essentially kicked me out of the home for professing the true Jesus and rebuking the false

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LDS God. She wrote a couple things they've been saying about her. But this young woman is now in Christ as a result of the content on Apologia Studios on YouTube and Facebook.

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And that's something that God has done so many times. We've lost count. It's happening globally, and we're grateful to God to be able to be a part of something like this.

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Jared's on right now. He said the same thing. What's that? Jared is on the chat. Oh, right on. He wouldn't have come to Christ if it wasn't for our spiritual support.

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Praise the Lord, Jared. That's right. I mean, God's given us the grace and the honor and the privilege to be able to use this platform to speak the truth, talk about the true

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Christ, the true gospel to the Mormon people. And God's just blessed us, and it's humbling.

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And we're kind of uniquely fit as a church. It's just organic. It's just sort of how God has done this.

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It's uniquely fit because of our love for the Mormon people and our knowledge of the Mormon faith to go to Utah to plant a church and to reach the

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Mormon community there. And I've said many times before that Mormons are my favorite, and I've believed that for a long time.

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I often remark when people say, like, I don't know if I could do what you guys do. You go out, and it just seems so scary to go out to the

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Mormon temple to reach the Mormons. And I'm thinking to myself, like, no. Going to the Reason Rally could be a little sketch.

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Like, going to the Reason Rally in D .C. with all the atheists. They have just this worldview that has no basis whatsoever, no attachment whatsoever to biblical truth.

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And so you don't necessarily know what you're going to get there. But going to the Mormon temple, going to Mormon events, reaching

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Mormon friends and neighbors, I mean, I think they're some of the sweetest people in the entire world. I love, love, love, love the

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Mormon community. To be honest with you, there are some Mormons I would rather hang out with than some professing believers.

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We get messages. Yeah. We get messages. Oh, boy. We've had a few this week.

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We get messages. And I love God's people, of course, supremely. But in terms of, like, interaction and, like, you know, hanging out and getting to know somebody, sometimes the

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Mormon people are just—they're just a joy to be around. And so we love the Mormon people. We want to see you talk.

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Come to Christ. Come under the feet of Jesus. Come to faith in Jesus. So, that brings me to you, boys. Why are you doing this crazy thing?

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Sure. I mean, obviously, number one, the Great Commission, Matthew 28.

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We are called to bring the gospel to every part of the earth and to baptize in the name of the

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Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Not baptize for the dead, not baptize in a plethora of gods, but to baptize in the triune

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God, the one true and living God. The name. Yeah. Singular. Right. The name of God.

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Yeah. And to teach and disciple and teach all that Christ had commanded. And so, number one, it's definitely

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Great Commission. Number two, like you've kind of already hinted at, there's a legacy,

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I think, at our church that, you know, most people already know. And that's all the way from Dr.

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James White to you, Pastor Luke, Pastor Zach, being uniquely equipped here at Apologia to reach the

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LDS people all the way back from the 80s going to general conferences, you in the 90s going to the

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Mesa Temple. You know, and we've been making trips, you know, the past couple years, obviously, to general conference ourselves.

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And, you know, there's just such an opportunity. The fact is it is the least

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Christian state in the whole U .S. So I look at that and go, okay, we send a lot of people out.

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We do a lot of international missions. And that's fantastic, praise God. But in a state just north of us in Arizona, it has the least amount of Christians.

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It's only, by our statistics, by our own research and what we've seen, it's only 3 % evangelical

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Christian. And so that means in a state of 3 .2 million people, there's less than like 95 ,000 believers, whereas there's millions of believers in other states.

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So it's such a harvest. It's such a harvest. But the problem is in the culture we live in today where there's so much subjectivism and so much of a lack of concern for objective truth and this is right and that's not right, people will probably be asking the question, well, why are you going to a place that says they believe in Jesus Christ, they believe that he died for sins, they believe he died on a cross, they believe that he rose again from the dead, they say they believe this book, they just have some other addition, additional content.

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Right. Why would you risk your lives and put your family into this kind of suffering to reach a community that already professes faith in Jesus?

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Sure. And you already read it a little bit, but we have 2 Corinthians 11, people are going to come, they're going to preach a different gospel, a different Jesus, they're going to have a different spirit.

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The Apostle Paul warned us to expect that. We have

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Galatians chapter 1, you know, the Judaizers came with a gospel, a foreign gospel, foreign to what they had already preached.

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They added to the grace and the merit of Jesus Christ alone, his work alone, right.

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And so we're warned about that, that there will be different Jesuses and so that's our heart.

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They're preaching and believing in a different Jesus Christ and they have a different gospel.

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They have a gospel where you have to be baptized and confirmed as a member in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints, you have to remain active and participate in that church, you have to solidify your testimony, you have to tithe, you have to obey the words of the prophet, you have to obey the words of wisdom, you have to go through temple endowments, temple ordinances, you have to live the law of chastity.

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If you're a young man, you have to, typically, you know, there's pressure to go on mission, you have to be, again, sealed in the temple there.

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These are all the things that were stacking up upon the gospel of Jesus Christ and in Galatians, they only wanted to add circumcision, but all the things that I just said are stacked up upon the free gift of Jesus Christ.

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So that is a gospel that can't save. Again, we love them. We love them so much, but they're deluded in thinking that a gospel, a false gospel of a false

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Jesus will actually save them. It'll condemn them. And so our hope is to go there and to share that true gospel of Jesus Christ with them and see them take that faith, misguided, deceived faith, and place that faith and that love.

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A lot of them have a love for God, generally, but to take those things and place them in the one true and living

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God. That's all we want. Andrew? Yeah, that's good. So in terms of when someone says, well, you know, they believe in Jesus, they talk about Jesus.

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I mean, their church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. Well, I mean, Jesus talks about it himself in Matthew 7, 21 through 23, and this is my burden, where my heart is, for these people who claim to know

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Jesus. He says, Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my

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Father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

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And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. So there's a massive group of people who exist in this world who claim to know

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Jesus, but they don't actually believe in the Jesus of Scripture. Right? And so the people group, this

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LDS people group, they claim to have multiple standards, right? But we know there's one that they cling to over another.

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So they would use the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants to interpret the Bible. But however, the

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Bible is still there, but the Bible becomes a stumbling block. But in terms of how the gospel massively reached the world after the death of Christ, how the

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Jewish synagogue was training up young people, they were reading the Psalms, reading the law, and it was like burdening people's hearts, getting them ready for the true gospel.

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I see that the same way as what's going on in Utah right now. Like they have the Bible, right?

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But it's a stumbling block for them. But at the same time, it could also be opening their hearts in a way to receive the gospel of the true and living

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God that breaks the yoke of slavery that they're bound to, to say, wow, here I am. Just like how the

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Roman highways paved the ways for the gospel to spread massively like wildfire,

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I believe leveraging part of a standard that they hold to in showing the true and living

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God where they're at now can really open their eyes to see who Jesus is for who he really is, because he's so much more beautiful than how they even think he is, in a sense.

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Yeah. So when we talk about that he's so much more beautiful, what is the

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Mormon story about Jesus Christ? Because they're using our terminology. Muslims use our terminology.

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They say Jesus Christ. They say God. They say prophet. Jehovah's Witnesses use our terminology.

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They say Heavenly Father. They say Jesus Christ. They say Holy Spirit. You ask the

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Jehovah's Witness, did Jesus die for sin? They'll say, yes, he did. And so we have, again, the problem, you can just take all the different religious groups that have risen up that have adopted biblical language or portions of biblical history, and they've pulled them over into their new story, and they've repackaged it.

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They've given it a new definition. And so just because someone says the name Jesus Christ doesn't mean they're talking about Jesus Christ.

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That's right. And that's clear from Scripture. I mean, you have the Apostle John and the

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Apostle Paul having to deal with the early beginnings of Gnosticism in the New Testament. You can see it in their writings. And John, in one of his very short epistles, he warns the early church, who were meeting at that time in house churches, he warns them if somebody denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, they don't know

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God. Right. And so he says, you're not even going to let this person into your house. You don't let them into your worship service.

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You don't let them disrupt this. We're told in Scripture to earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

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You have Galatians, very short letter from the Apostle Paul, where he is, modern language, freaking out over the fact that the church in Galatia is accepting this perversion of the biblical gospel.

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There's nothing in Galatians that would suggest that people in Galatia, these Judaizers, that they deny the deity of Christ, that they were not monotheists, that they denied the authority of Scripture.

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It seems like they were on board with all those things because Paul doesn't even address it. He addresses it elsewhere, but he doesn't even address it.

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But in Galatians, he's addressing a gospel that sounds so stinking close. It sounds so close.

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I mean, what's the big deal of just saying, trust in Jesus and at least keep this one part of the law?

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I mean, you've got to get these guys circumcised, for goodness sakes. That's what we've grown up with. That's our whole history. That's a sign of the covenants.

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And Paul, essentially, he eviscerates them and says, basically, if you go this route, if you go the route of law, even to that degree of just keep this one part,

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Christ will be of no benefit to you. You've fallen from grace. It's either grace in this point or it's law.

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So the point is, is in Scripture, you see the apostles, that they have the understanding that Jesus Christ and his nature and person can be understood to the degree they can also be defended over against false versions of him.

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And you think, what are the Gnostics saying about Jesus? Well, that he just didn't take on flesh. Right?

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And John says to that, you don't know God. If you don't think he took on flesh, if you think he's some sort of spirit from some higher story, then you don't know

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God. He calls it the spirit of the Antichrist. Exactly. And Paul clearly thinks the gospel can be so understood at a basic level that he can actually tell people, you preach that anathema on you.

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I don't care if an angel comes down from heaven and preaches any other gospel, he says anathema, eternal condemnation.

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So the gospel can actually be understood because Paul expects people to defend it, to recognize an erroneous gospel, and to resist it, to fight against it as Christians.

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And oftentimes, I think many times, we live in an age where many people on every level, you have guys wearing eyeliner, for goodness sakes.

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You have guys wearing eyeliner, accepting the gender bending and gender confusion today.

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You have guys today who are totally accepting of the LGBT lifestyle.

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Again, they think it's acceptable for men to dress like women, for men to -

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Being effeminate. Being malachoic, being effeminate. And they think that's perfectly acceptable. They think all this stuff, truth is malleable.

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It could be sort of squished. And you have even guys, Mormons today, that will admit, yeah, my prophet, he was wrong here.

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And I don't have to accept what he says here. Truth is just so malleable for them. And I know

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Brigham Young said that Adam was God, our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.

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And he said that if you don't accept that, that you're gonna experience eternal condemnation. I know he said that, but you don't have to really believe that.

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And I know that Brigham Young taught that unless you're a polygamist, you'll never become a God one day.

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I know that, but I don't have to accept all that they said. Even though Brigham Young says that when he has given sermons and sent it out to the sons of men, it is as good as what is couched in the

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Bible. It is scripture. So his words were scripture. And by the way, Brigham Young's being consistent there, isn't he?

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Because he says, I mean, Mormonism starts with this. When they come to your house, they tell you, you know, God has restored the church and he's restored apostles and prophets to the church.

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So our prophets and our apostles, they speak for God. Right. Right. And so they're being consistent. Yeah. The modern

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Mormon who says, I don't have to accept any of that. I don't have to believe any of that. Yeah, Joseph Smith had false prophecies. Yeah. You know, all that stuff, you know, but I really like this culture.

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I really like this community. It's just this idea today that truth is malleable, that the gospel can't really be defined.

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And you even have people today who are evangelical, who are professing evangelical Christians that believe and act in that way. Like, you know, you know, the whole reformation thing that happened way back then, you know, the whole, you know,

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Jesuits and the whole Council of Trent and all that stuff, like, you know, you know, it's just Tempest in a teapot sort of a thing.

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Like they believe in Jesus too, like sort of a thing. It's like, not according to Paul. Paul actually says, you try to add this little addendum to the gospel call and to how a person is justified, then you're going to hell.

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Yeah. And you don't know Jesus and you've thrown away grace and Paul even, you know, he says things as an inspired apostle, like, you know, you guys like to play with knives.

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I hope you go ahead and cut yourselves off. I hope you go all the way with those knives, boys. Right. And he says that.

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Why does Paul say it with a serrated edge like he does in the book of Galatians? Why? Because Paul understands that the gospel and how a person is reconciled to God is so clearly defined in scripture that there could be something that is true and something that is false.

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And you can say, well, it sounds so similar. It sounds so familiar. Well, the problem is, is that could have been said in Galatia.

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And Paul says to the Judaizers, go to hell. Right. Yep. Now, I'm just trying to be as, as, as bullet pointy as I can by hand, blunt as I can.

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But that is what he says. Anathema is, is go to hell. Angel who preaches a false gospel, go to hell.

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Anybody who preaches a false gospel, go to hell. That's where you're going. and so, again, when we talk about going to Utah, we're talking about going into a context of a community that, yes, they use our language.

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So did David Koresh. Yes, they talk about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Again, so did Mary Baker Eady. So, so have any number of, of cult leaders.

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So did Jim Jones. Right? Right. Just because somebody uses

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Christian terminology does not mean they know the Lord of glory. I mean, Jesus, he says in John 8, that his mission and his person is so clearly defined and understood and, and explicated by him that he actually says, unless you believe

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I am, you'll die in your sins. So if you don't believe that Jesus is the

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I am, that he is eternal God, if you don't believe that he's Yahweh, come in the flesh, then you don't know

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God. Right. And so, you know, here's the thing. Yes, there, and I'll shut up here. Yes, there are things in Scripture that are hard to understand.

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That's acknowledged by an inspired apostle. There are things Peter says that Paul teaches that are hard to understand.

28:33

Yes, there are high and lofty deep spiritual things that are complicated and you have to really dig deep and meditate and you have to try to hold everything together and say, what exactly is being said there?

28:42

And yet, there are things in Scripture that are so clearly understood at the bottom shelf level that the inspired prophets and apostles expect you to understand it because it is so clearly communicated at an elementary school child level that if you distort it, you're condemned.

29:00

And what we have in Utah, of course, is a community, a very large community that so desperately needs the true

29:06

Christ and the true gospel. What's the goal? It's that the Mormon people have peace with God.

29:11

Amen. It's the Mormon people have peace with God. That's the goal is we want them to know Jesus like we know Jesus to have the gift of eternal life and Mormonism is robbing them of that.

29:21

So. Amen. Sorry, I'm just dealing with guy lining Mormon trolls on here making false claims.

29:29

Yeah. It's definitely a yoke, right? Oh, absolutely. It's no,

29:35

Jesus says, you know, take my yoke upon you. You know, it's easy, it's light.

29:40

Right. Theirs is heavy. Theirs is slavery to sin. Paul talks about, even in Romans 5, you know, being a slave to Christ and being a slave to Christ is true freedom, right?

29:56

But the fact is, going back to what you're saying about their prophets and everything always changing all the time, that would make sense, right?

30:06

If you have a God who is an elevated man who in his previous existence as a man was earning and working for his salvation under the

30:18

God that he was under imperfectly, right? And then he progressed to deity and so a

30:26

God that was once a man is always going to be changing. You know, he is not like the one true

30:32

God who says, I don't change. He is not like a man nor a son of man that he should lie nor that he should repent, that he should change his mind.

30:39

So, you have that. It's a slippery slope. It's always going to be changing. We know throughout history you could just easily take a look at the history from the 1800s to now.

30:51

You see the Mormon church capitulating and bowing to the state on many different things.

30:58

God changing his mind along with the culture. I was going to say, I mean, you're talking about just theological, a theological yoke, but I know one thing that's been very eye -opening to all of us is how that translates into everyday life.

31:15

And you guys have compiled a whole gambit of statistics to show that that theological yoke translates into an actual daily whitewashed tombs, if you will, yoke, because they're carrying around this yoke of perfection that they have to portray from the outside.

31:39

And it's just wreaking havoc upon that community. And you guys, like I said, have all kinds of stats to back that up.

31:44

But I think that was very eye -opening to us when we started seeing some of that stuff. It was like, oh man, it breaks your heart to see them just dragging that weight behind them constantly.

31:54

Yeah, I think one of the things to think about in terms of the yoke that they're bearing is the fact that they have to show and manifest the fruits of the spirit without actually having the spirit of God.

32:04

And that's very powerful. And I think one thing that we need to realize is this, is that the

32:10

Mormon God doesn't exist. The LDS organization sacrifices people to keep them alive.

32:15

He's not actually there. Yeah. Right? And these poor people are so burdened to show through outward and external appearances that they have something true, intangible, when really what they have is nothing at all.

32:31

Yeah. Right? Like the God of the Bible doesn't sacrifice people to keep himself alive. No. He did the exact opposite.

32:37

He sacrificed himself. Yeah. So we could come to know him and have peace with him purely out of humility.

32:45

Right? It's something that's extremely potent and it blows my mind because there's, again, a massive people group that is over there that are going to die one day where all promise death.

32:58

Right? And they're going to go and they're going to meet Jesus who is the great I Am, the eternal God, not the offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives.

33:06

No. He's the God of John 1. Right? In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and he's the

33:12

God of Colossians 1, the one who created all things on heaven and on earth, visible and invisible whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities.

33:20

Right? Not only the God that created things on earth, not necessarily things in heaven who's the spiritual brother of Lucifer.

33:27

Exactly. That God does not exist and, again, the LDS organization in order to keep that God of life is sacrificing people.

33:35

Well, I think, I mean, I'm glad you brought that up. That's always my go -to passage because you brought up, you know, you can't be creator of all things and spirit brother of Satan.

33:45

Right. And so you know what they do. They like to add all other things into the text there and, you know, it's not there.

33:52

It doesn't exist. No. And usually when you point that out to them that's about the point they start bearing their testimony. Yeah. Which is sad because that's what, you know, they're trained to do but that's an important passage absolutely to distinguish between the biblical

34:05

Jesus and the Mormon Jesus. Yeah. That's right. You know, it's oftentimes the case that when you have a

34:11

Mormon, say a young Mormon who says that, you know, they're in this discussion, they understand there are these problems with Joseph Smith's history and false prophecies and all the rest.

34:24

Oftentimes you get into the world of Mormon apologetics, right, where you have sort of the mantra is yes, but Mormon scholarship.

34:33

Yes, but Mormon scholarship. As though throwing out the term scholarship solves the problem of Joseph Smith's false prophecies, of his contradicting of scripture, of Brigham Young's false prophecies, of his contradicting of his own words and his contradicting of even

34:50

Mormon theology today. I mean, why is it, do you think, there are so many different sects of Mormonism today why are there so many

34:59

Mormons that are saying, hey, to Salt Lake, guys, this, what you're teaching and doing now, is not what our prophets taught.

35:08

Right? Right. They're saying things like Brigham said, unless you're a polygamist, you'll never become a god one day.

35:14

If the goal is exaltation, then we have to be polygamists. No matter what God says in Deuteronomy 17, 17, no matter what you're saying today as the modern prophet, this is what our prophets said long before you came along, and so they're, that's why there are so many different polygamist communities in the state of Utah, because what are they doing?

35:34

They're trying to be faithful to their prophets. You know, and you know, the constant mantra amongst young Mormons who recognize that there are problems of, but Mormon scholarship, you should engage with our

35:48

Mormon scholars, isn't going to solve the problem. No. It doesn't solve the problem to simply say, the slogan, yes, but Mormon scholarship says, when your prophet says, if you deny the practice of polygamy, you will be damned.

36:04

No, no, no level of Mormon scholarship is going to help that. Right. It's not going to solve the problem.

36:11

Yeah. Especially when Brigham Young says that his words are as good as what is couched in Scripture.

36:17

They are to be seen as Scripture. And again, the mantra of the modern young Mormon who tries to solve these problems with eyeliner and with attempts to say, but Mormon scholarship isn't going to solve the problem.

36:31

It's not going to solve the problem of Wilford Woodruff in Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 120, 1857, who says,

36:37

God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so worlds without end.

36:44

I'm sorry, all your Mormon scholarship isn't going to solve the problem. Right. That's not the

36:50

God of the Bible. No. This is in 1857, long after Scripture is given to the church, the church's

36:58

Christendom is spreading over the world, and Wilford Woodruff is a false teacher. That's all there is to it.

37:04

It's not going to solve the problem of Joseph Smith in Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 11, 1844, when he says,

37:11

No man knows my history. I cannot tell it. I shall never undertake it. I don't blame him, by the way. I don't blame anyone for not believing my history.

37:19

If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself. I cannot lie down until all my work is finished, 1844, shortly before he was murdered in Carthage.

37:30

Murdered? Yes. It was wrong, what happened to him. It was murder, but Joseph Smith, let's be honest, he didn't see it coming, which is also why he tried to fight his way out of it.

37:41

Joseph Smith is a false prophecy. He said that he was going to stay in the priest's office until Christ returned. Joseph Smith taught that Jesus Christ was coming back in that generation before they had all passed away, and no reciting of that slogan yes, but Mormon scholarship is going to solve the problem for the young Mormon who is trying to solve the problems of Mormonism.

38:03

This is in fact a different God. Imagine for a second the response to Paul's letter in Galatians where he's saying this, but not that, and here's what

38:17

God did with Abraham, and that's not the gospel. If the response of the Judaizers, yes, but the

38:22

Judaizing scholarship says you need to really engage with that. It's like this is God's clear revelation.

38:29

It says this, and you're saying that. You're wrong. You're wrong, and the situation is not going to get pacified because of these pithy slogans of yes, but Mormon scholarship.

38:40

I'll tell you what. I'll debate, and we'll fund the entire operation to make sure it's seen everywhere all over the globe.

38:46

I will debate the quorum of the 12. They can all stand on the stage next to me, and nobody or Dr.

38:53

White, I'll take on the prophet of Mormonism. If they want to open their Bible, I'll open my

38:58

Bible. Let's do it that way. That would be epic. Let's not talk about Mormon scholarship and all the rest. Let's talk about from the top.

39:04

Apologia Church has elders. Our leadership will engage with the top leadership of the Mormon Church. How's that sound?

39:10

You can have all 12 of them on one side of the stage. They get a Bible. I get a Bible, and let's see where it goes.

39:16

Everyone tag the LDS Church right now. Tag it. Post it. Because guess what? They won't, and guess what?

39:21

We've tried, and they won't. Actually, I'm going to say this. For the record, we've had

39:26

Mormon, not apostles, but apologists who said they would debate you, and then later they were told, no, you won't.

39:37

The debate didn't happen. We also had a debate set up with a Mormon bishop, and ultimately it was shut down because he was told that he wasn't allowed to do a debate.

39:47

I'm sorry, JW. You're living in a fiction.

39:57

You're living in a fiction. Sorry, it's someone in the comments, guys. You're just living in a fiction. You're telling yourself stories that make you feel better about what to believe about the situation, but you haven't solved the problem.

40:06

You haven't solved the problem, friend, and you won't. You won't with Mormon scholarship or with Manliner.

40:13

Yeah, I mean, Mormon scholarship's not even their standard. Appealing to something like that is not even something that Joseph Smith would do.

40:19

This is the 10th prophet of Mormonism, Joseph Fielding Smith, states this in Doctrines of Salvation, page 188, volume 1. He says,

40:24

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds the world has ever seen.

40:34

There is no middle ground. That's right. And how do you know if something's a fraud, especially in terms of prophecy? Well, the

40:40

Bible gives us a standard, Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18, specifically with Deuteronomy 18, one false prophecy.

40:46

They speak in the name of Yahweh. They speak presumptuously and it doesn't come to pass. They're a false prophet. Yeah. Law of God then says what?

40:52

Kill them. Yeah. That's how important it is if you were to speak in the name of God, Yahweh, and it doesn't happen, kill them.

40:58

And you said the quote earlier, this was in 1835 from History of the Church, volume 2, page 182.

41:03

Joseph Smith predicted, the coming of the Lord, which was nigh, even 56 years should wind up on the scene.

41:09

Mm -hmm. Didn't happen. One false prophecy. The standard said, Joseph Smith, false prophet. I can actually trust in the

41:15

Bible, right, to actually give me knowledge so I don't have to search for knowledge through prayer when that's not even how you get it in the first place when

41:24

God has previously, clearly, like you stated earlier, has given us the knowledge to know and believe and understand who he is in prior revelation.

41:31

Jesus says, thy word is truth. Sanctify them by thy truth. Thy word is truth.

41:36

Amen. And the word that he uses there in the Greek for truth, I mean, at least to help to understand it, was the plumb line.

41:43

It was a thing to see whether something was right, whether it was true. When you're building something. And so ultimately,

41:48

Jesus is saying there, you have this objective thing that's telling you whether or not you're right, whether you're true.

41:56

So Jesus says, I want my people to be sanctified by the truth, set apart by the truth. Your word is truth.

42:02

So God's revelation is the truth. Not Joseph Smith's fanciful imagination. Not my own experience.

42:10

Like, you know, it was interesting. And just to not put this on the shoulders of the Mormons, just the Mormons. I was in North Carolina last week.

42:18

And I was doing a lot of stuff for End Abortion Now. Huge gift and blessing to see what God is doing there. Numerous churches now going to the abortion mills out there, preaching the gospel and saving babies now.

42:27

And it's just really incredible. So I had a man walk up to me when

42:33

I taught at the Bible College. And he came up to me and he clearly, something was broken. Something was broken.

42:40

He was slurring his words. He was having a hard time. You could tell. And I had to like work really hard to make sure

42:46

I could hear what my brother was saying and listen because it was difficult to understand him. And I caught that he was saying that he was in an accident about 12 years ago and sustained a very severe brain injury.

42:57

And so I was talking about apologetics and the grounding of apologetics and truth. And so we were doing presuppositional apologetics and talking about transcendental stuff.

43:06

And so I was basically saying like the word of God is the reference point. We were talking about how do I know something for certain?

43:11

It's God's revelation that's the certainty. Not my experience. Not my feelings. Not my prayer life.

43:16

It's God's revelation that is the reference point. And so he came up to me afterwards and I felt his heart.

43:22

He was basically saying, I know what you're saying. He said, but basically nobody can compete with my story and my experience with God.

43:31

And I understood it because it's a severe thing. It's very traumatizing. He had a very severe brain injury. It's obviously affected him physically and debilitated him now for life.

43:39

But he loves Jesus and God has pulled him out of this severe trauma and this terrible suffering into a place of joy and peace and he knows

43:47

Jesus. And I understood what he was saying. He was saying like, I've had this experience with Jesus where I've been able to endure this awful suffering and I know

43:56

God and I'm okay. And I understood what he was saying but on a philosophical level, your experience can be put right next to the

44:05

Muslim that has also had a traumatizing experience whether it is suffering and loss and death or whether it is something physically debilitating and they'll say that Allah got me through this.

44:18

And they can be sincere. And they're very sincere. They're very sincere. Very sincere. And the Mormon has the same claim. And so if you take everybody in their testimonies and say, well,

44:24

I've prayed about this and you don't know the feelings that I have and all that I've experienced. Brothers and sisters, people say that in brothels this felt so good.

44:33

It was such an amazing experience. People go to these new age hippie dippy crazy week long in the jungle crazy experiences where they take ayahuasca and DMT and all the rest.

44:46

Sweat lodge. Sweat lodges. And they come back and they say the same thing. You don't know the experience that I have. I touched the face of God.

44:52

I looked into my soul and I saw all that I was trying to hide from and I'm a new person now and I'm changed.

44:58

You can never take this experience away from me. You cannot gain objective truth from somebody's subjective experience.

45:06

Now somebody's subjective experience may be in accordance with the truth. The only way you know whether it's in accordance with the truth is if it's in accordance with the truth.

45:16

There's a standard over here that you test something by. And that's the standard Jesus used in Matthew 15 when he's dealing with people who had the

45:23

Bible and they had the Korban rule. They had divine tradition that they thought was handed all the way down and this is the expectation is this is from God.

45:31

You're gonna do this too. Divine tradition and the Bible. This is what our community believes. This is our tradition and this is the Bible.

45:37

Jesus says you say and then he quotes the Korban rule. He says but Moses says.

45:43

So he quotes scripture and he says thus you invalidate the word of God for the sake of your tradition. So for Jesus the incarnate one when

45:49

God became a man and he was involved in conflict with varying different teachings he said

45:55

God says this you say that. Therefore you invalidate the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Jesus says this is what

46:01

I want you to be set apart by. The truth. What is the truth? The word of God. Yeah. The revelation of God.

46:08

In our Mormon outreach on Sunday mornings we will get people coming up to us and just you know again it's kind of their last line of defense which is interesting right because as Christians we're like our only defense is in the word of God.

46:25

But their final defense is bearing the testimony. It's the feelings. But you know it can be difficult obviously because you know these people we've had one older gentleman in his 70's say you know his he was not he did not grow up in the

46:42

LDS church he was in his 20's and his only daughter had died. She got in an accident and she died.

46:50

And he says I would go to work I was looking for answers you know but Christianity told me she was likely in hell because she didn't believe on the

46:59

Lord Jesus Christ. You know just kind of a caricature and then he said he had a co -worker who kept reading the

47:07

Book of Mormon every day at lunch and you know finally one day he asked this guy some questions and that that Mormon co -worker was like well

47:19

I have something to tell you you will have an eternal family. You he was appealing to his emotions you will see your daughter again.

47:28

Now you know I know the grace of God is great I don't know his sovereign will

47:35

I don't know his sovereign plan his daughter I'm not sure where she is right I can't say one or the other but of course once again appealing to the emotions so the fact is like you said we can't dictate truth by our emotions because it can lead us into sin.

47:52

I've met I've met people who profess Christ and they're like well my my

47:57

God told me to divorce my husband so God would tell you to do something you know contrary to his word which again there's there's some cases of biblical grounds of divorce

48:11

I'm not denying that but I in this case I knew it was just this was like a

48:16

Hillelite yeah yeah marriage like for any cause right and so we have to look at our testimonies we have to weigh everything against truth and I'm not denying that they may have had certain experiences right and the fact of the matter is the common benevolence of God touches all people his goodness and benevolence his grace touches everyone in this creation right in that general revelation but you need the special revelation and the final form of that special revelation is

48:50

Jesus Christ and so that that's the big difference right that's right that's right yeah

48:56

I was just gonna say just like a fine rug I'm gonna tie the room together good like cause I don't know like Andrew you mentioned like false prophecies like all that like ultimately like you guys are saying like their standard is their experience is their feelings yeah and so you could show them all of Joseph's false prophecies you can show them what scripture actually says about the deity of Christ you can show them that what they're believing in right now contradicts what

49:18

Joseph taught or Brigham taught and you know you can show them all those things and what it boils down to is well

49:24

I had this feeling I have a brain in my bosom yeah it's what it boils down to and that is their standard ultimately and so yeah just yeah yeah and let's that's actually here right here it's perfect it's perfect hey it's kinda providential probably just in that so what we're gonna do everybody is

49:40

I'm gonna play a clip of us outside the Mormon temple in Mesa, Arizona engaging with a Mormon couple out there we're not gonna play a ton of it just a little bit of it here to show sort of how the engagement and interaction takes place with a common

49:52

Mormon on the street and then we're gonna come back from the video and these guys are gonna announce something very special happening in about a month and a half month and a half yeah about a month and a half where you'll be able to actually come and hang out with us spend time with us in Utah and so stay tuned for that and just to kinda give you an example of what this looks like on the street and communication this is this is probably from like 2015 here we go this church is teaching you a false

50:30

Christ you're on public property now sir God says

50:36

I am the Lord I do not change but he does change the Bible says he does our biggest difference between us and you is

50:46

I prayed to God and God's bore witness to me that what I believe is true the book of Mormon is true

50:52

Joseph Smith was a prophet President Monson is a prophet I got my holy the holy ghost bore witness that it's true regardless of what anything's written down God has told me it's true and he's the final word well can

51:06

I just ask you a question about that your testimony do you believe that Jesus is not the divine son of God that he didn't die on a cross yes we do we believe he died on the cross he atoned for our sins he died on the cross but Muslims believe in Jesus Christ and they say that he is not the son of God well we don't believe that I know but if you could listen for a second they say that he didn't die for sins and so but they have prayed about that and they believe it with all their hearts that's between him and God then so where do we go for actual solid truth do we go to God and his word yes go to God in God's not his word you take his word you look at it you study it you emphasize it and then you go on your knees and pray to God that it's what you think that says it means it's truth okay can

51:54

I ask you a question in Isaiah 43 10 God says before me there was no

52:00

God formed neither shall there be after me but as a Latter Day Saint don't you believe that there were gods before God and you can become one one day we believe we can become one yes yeah and so what would you say to God there

52:13

Christ said the same thing be ye therefore perfect sure even as I am your father and I was perfect yeah about righteousness but that's not about becoming a

52:20

God one day well yes it is well be ye therefore perfect even as your father and I was perfect that has to do with righteousness no not becoming a

52:27

God if you're perfect you become a God yeah that's what Mormonism teaches but that's definitely contrary to what scripture says no see to me it doesn't well what would you say to God when he says before me there was no

52:39

God formed neither shall there be after me I wouldn't it wouldn't be an issue with me I wouldn't have to say anything to him even though even though that fundamentally denies what you believe about God when

52:49

I stand before God and if it's an issue then we're dealing about it then right now I don't that's a scary place

52:56

I remember that guy that's a scary place to be well if I get there and there's a problem I'll deal with it then

53:01

I'm like well yeah you know it's it's that's the I think a good example of sort of how these conversations go it's very subjective

53:11

I had this experience hey here's what God says and it's just either dismissive of like you know well

53:17

I'll deal with it then or it's well I don't think that's been translated not and you usually ask the

53:25

Mormon like well do you have any understanding of where we got our Bibles and how we get English translations and they generally don't have any understanding whatsoever they've just been told by Joseph Smith that it's missing many plain and precious parts and that it's been translated incorrectly and so there's just a good example of sort of like you know what we're talking about here in terms of like engagement on the street and you have to answer the fool according to their folly right step into their position and they say well

53:47

I know because God told me like well what about the Rosicrucian God said something to him and you know

53:53

I've walked on the streets in lots of cities around the world and there's all kinds of mad men and mad women running around in the streets saying that God's talking to them so how do

54:04

I know what's true do I listen to the lady that was running naked down baseline road recently literally running naked down baseline road please don't listen to her who was screaming out that God talks to her you want to listen to her she by the way

54:18

I don't even know how she got there because she's she's in my neck of the woods far far away I drive like what like six seven miles almost to the studio and she's running down the middle of the street naked well it is very hot out yeah it's true

54:28

I'm like how'd you get here because she's homeless but you know she says

54:33

God talks to her so how do I know that God's talking to somebody the answer special revelation

54:41

God's revelation the scripture that is the test that Jesus applies to the Jews of his day who had the

54:47

Bible and what they thought were words of God that is the test you see throughout scripture Deuteronomy chapter 13 how do we know how do we know if this guy's for you even if there's signs and wonders

54:56

God says if he leads you after other gods that's how you know so in other words if this prophet comes and it even looks legit seems right seems like it's from God all right sounds like this guy's from God God says well if he denies my previous revelation if he leads you after a different God from what

55:14

I've told you about myself that's how you know it's a false prophet apply that test to Joseph apply it to Brigham apply it to Orson Pratt apply it to Bruce R.

55:22

McConkie you apply it to Gordon Hinckley apply it to any of them and you'll see we're dealing with false prophets here

55:27

God's word is the standard and so here we go let's talk about what we're going to do so we are planning a church in the state of Utah and it's coming very very soon we're going to make very specific announcements very very soon for everybody but what's happening what are we doing we're having an open house yeah where?

55:45

we are having an open house the night of September 3rd it's a

55:50

Friday night 7 p .m. and that's going to be held in the city of South Jordan and we're doing it at the

55:58

Mission Church Mission Church 7 p .m. September 3rd September 3rd

56:05

Mission Church 7 p .m. South Jordan South Jordan okay 7 p .m.

57:09

South Jordan 7 p .m. right? Amen there you go all right praise the Lord for all that he's doing it's a humbling thing and Apologia sorry

57:24

ApologiaUtah .com yeah that's A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A -U -T -A -D -O -T -C -O -M want to encourage everybody we are so close

57:36

God has blessed this tremendously so quickly we have an initial need church plans cost money this studio costs money getting the word out costs money and it only is possible because brothers and sisters just like you partner with us in ministry so this particular show and everything you see on Apologia Studios is made possible because we have partners who are doing this ministry with us by the way you're doing it with us who partner with us by doing

58:00

All Access on Apologia Studios just go sign up for All Access ApologiaStudios .com also sign up for Bonson U which is completely free and is dropping new content regularly but this particular mission we have for Utah has already gotten so close to its funding for the first year of ministry it's incredible it's been like two months yeah just a little over two months and so how far away are we away in the need now?

58:26

we are at like 111 ,000 out of our 150k goal so we are so close and that's why since we are so close with our elders we made the decision to progress and move forward and step out in faith knowing that God will provide the rest by the time we plant which that's coming soon we're going to announce that shortly yes but seriously

58:49

God has blessed us so quickly we've had people reaching out people who are leaving the

58:55

LDS church people who are learning how to witness to their LDS neighbors for the first time people who are encouraged people who used to be

59:03

Mormons who are now followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and they are encouraged and it's just been

59:09

I'm humbled that I even get to be a part of it such a big blessing and you know I just want to bring it back to Jesus Christ it is often the simple gospel of Jesus Christ that Christ came he lived perfectly and we are sinners and he died on our behalf he took the wrath that we deserve as the

59:30

God man fully God fully man totally God totally man and he paid that penalty he died he was buried he rose again on the third day defeating death in the grave and we can have eternal life by faith a free gift of grace by the

59:46

Lord Jesus Christ and that's what it's all about Christ is central to the gospel message

59:52

Christ is central to our ministry and what we want to do in Utah we want these people to know just the love that is found in Christ and it's just it's glorious so apologyutah .com

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is where people can go to participate to help with the church plant needs and God has been so gracious to us it's humbling to watch

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God just bless overwhelmingly in two months to get so close to the goal it's truly truly incredible and it's an honor and a privilege to be a part of but that's happening right now at apologyutah .com

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people can go there they can give towards the final goal to help us get that launch going so we can get boots on the ground and get to work and yeah so that's what's up apologyutah .com

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that's where everyone goes thank you everybody for watching today thank you everybody for sharing today I want to say a big thank you so much to two different people you might even be sort of like doing the same thing number one as I said before Apologia All Access if you're a partner with All Access you literally make everything that we do possible so you

01:00:53

I was thinking about this morning I was just thanking God for you guys this morning I really was you're doing this ministry with us you're a part of it with us and so you might think like oh

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I get this All Access account get all this additional content you know what is it like ten bucks a month something like that and you might not think it's a big deal it's a very big deal because everything we do happens all these people are coming to Jesus because of this platform and this content goes out but it doesn't happen without you so I wanted to tell you from the bottom of my heart thank you so much and if you're not

01:01:22

All Access sign up go get the bonds in you it's totally free go do that guys it's the best Christian education you're going to get

01:01:28

I truly believe that and I want to say thank you to all of our End Abortion Now supporters there's no way for me to even begin to tell you all that God is doing right now we have new bills happening in multiple states we already had bills going in this year for criminalization and equal protection that's insanity not just one but it's multiple states by the end of year 2021 it's going to be crazy thousands and thousands and thousands of children are alive today because you partnered with us for End Abortion Now so I want to say thank you thank you thank you thank you for doing this with us it's so awesome to see what

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God does at times honestly I have to like fight to not get jaded to like every amazing story like don't be jaded to the fact that another baby was saved today don't allow that to ever miss you because it is so significant so I want to say thank you thank you if you gave towards End Abortion Now at any point over the last five years

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I want to say from the bottom of my heart thank you so so much because none of it's possible without you being a part of this with us so we're humbled we're humbled we're grateful and that's