Debate Reports from South Africa: Graeme Codrington, Ayoob Karim, Yusuf Ismail

And greetings welcome to the dividing line back here in Phoenix, Arizona where it's a hundred and who knows what outside but Hey, that's what summer is all about Though I was not in summer most of this summer.

I mean, okay. I was in Colorado, but it was You know when you go to go to the

Southern Hemisphere, it's the opposite season and that was fairly warm down there

I got up to 80 a couple times and I was down there. I didn't really get much cold weather there and We will be headed we just saw the announcement hit we will be headed to Australia We're gonna go into Sydney and Melbourne in Australia the funny thing is

I got to mention this You know, we tried to arrange a debate with Tim Staples While we were there because he's gonna be there same weekend that I'm doing stuff and I'm talking about Roman Catholicism They're just across town and so it's a little bit weird that you'd have us all in the same place and there's no interaction

But we tried And they said well, no So we did our we did our best anyway so we're heading to Australia and Hopefully we'll have some details for you on What will be and I'm sort of happy to note this

Work is ongoing in arranging a debate in Salt Lake City immediately before the

General Conference With two atheists and it will be the first time that I get to team up with and Work with my fellow pastor and apologia

Jeff Durbin So Jeff and I against two atheists

In Salt Lake City now, you might go Salt Lake City doesn't strike me. It should

If you If you know anything about how weird things are

Every one every Christian in Salt Lake City is a foreign missionary

They really are should be viewed that way. Anyways, because that is that's truly la la land when it comes to any type of Theology.

So anyway, so before we do the General Conference and all that we will be trying to arrange that That'll be

Moderated a public debate number 170 Did three debates this past weekend in South Africa and then just a few days after The General Conference I'll be flying down to Australia then

I've got I think eight or nine days home after that before I head back to the UK and we have

Debates there then we've got the debate with Shabralli in Atlanta on the way back from the

UK And then one trip to st. Charles like I do every year and I think that's it until New Year's Day And that's gonna make that well,

I just got notification it surprised me I just got I was just sitting here and looked at the email real quick and I I'm executive platinum for the next year on Airlines already and it's only

August that means I've been I've been in planes a lot recently and it was just a number of hours ago and Uneventful trip back from from Johannesburg.

It is I was thinking about it though What an amazing day we live in what a what a in some ways blessed day

That's my sixth trip to South Africa and There's just been when

I think of some of the most encouraging things that have happened to me I think of being at a church in South Africa about three trips ago, maybe four and I've mentioned the church before because it is about the most mixed congregation

I can imagine you've got Blacks of every strain of black because there's lots of different levels of blackness in Africa as far as skin tone goes

You've got Indians lots and lots of folks from India Many of our former

Hindus and things like that and then you got white Afrikaners and they're all in one room worshiping together singing together and And After the service there was some refreshments outside and These young black university students come up to me and This is like I said, this is a number of years ago we've gone down there six times now and so they say

You know if it weren't for the dividing line if it wasn't for The the issues that you address and the topics that you address and the encouragement you provide we just we wouldn't make it through university because everybody in the university is against us and against our faith and and Your your ministry has had a huge positive impact upon us.

Well this last trip down I was Interestingly enough on a

Wednesday night. I was speaking on Apostasy I had spoken on apostasy, you know The Joshua Harris stuff and the

Marty Samson stuff and I had preached twice at Antioch and Sunday morning and then Wednesday night we

I did some more stuff on Hebrews 6 and then we did some live questions and Another group of Just exuberant young black men

University students came up to me and it was the same story Your ministry has just meant so much to us that's it keeps us going and That kind of thing is just incredibly

Encouraging when you when you think about being able to go as far as land places go

That's about the opposite side of the earth. I'd have to go a couple thousand miles West into the ocean to be on the exact opposite side of the earth from Phoenix But as far as being on land that's about as close as I can get when

I'm in Durban that's about the opposite side of the planet from me and I was there

Monday evening and it's Wednesday afternoon. That's almost Wednesday night there.

Of course There's a nine -hour difference, but it is just astonishing to think that You can

I mean when missionaries had to go to places like that in years in in centuries before It was a year.

It was years of journeying and incredibly dangerous To be able to get to places like that but now

We can go down there and we've had we had three debates preached a number of different places preached in in Phoenix, which is a suburb of Durban and Just re -establishing relationships with with believers that we can then maintain through Facebook and other means of electronic communication

It is when you think about it is an amazing day that we are able to do that kind of that kind of thing and then we're you know heading to Australia and It's an even longer flight

Because because it has to be direct That That's that's a tough one 10 11 hours is good once you get to 14 or so You're starting to get a little stir -crazy.

That's just all there is to it But that's that's what has to be done to get down there.

So anyway, I got there on a Friday morning and It's not so bad going that direction it's going it going to Australia You need more than one day to catch up because you cross the international date line

So everything gets messed up. You're a day ahead, but 17 hours behind So it's weird

You're the next day But 17 hours behind of where you were and your body just just doesn't know what to do with all that But I got there on Friday and I was a little concerned it turned out real well

Because we had scheduled the first and probably most difficult debate for Saturday evening, so hardly 24 hours after I after I got there and So Some of you may have seen the debate that we did three years ago with Graham Codrington on homosexuality

Graham Codrington is an internationally known speaker. He has I believe a master's degree in Theology from the

Baptist Union Seminary there in South Africa And so he's well known in that community

But he has taken a very marked leftward lurch and direction over the past number of years and so it was ironic that we can't get

We can't get people like Matthew Vines to to debate here in the

United States because from their perspective, they've already won the cultural argument and so Why should why should anyone worry about it?

Let's let's not expose ourselves in that way but so you have to go to South Africa to find someone who will will debate this this subject and My recollection is that after that particular debate?

I don't recall any explosions of vitriol or anything like that in regards to that that issue so I Was really surprised when

Graham Codrington wrote an article. Let me see if it August 21st 1230 in the afternoon

Not sure what time zone that would be but anyway August 21st was when he wrote this and It the debates already up a lot of you have already watched the debate

It was very clear And he struggled greatly anyone who tries to present a positive case

Against the thesis that the Bible limits marriage To a natural man and a natural woman.

We even we even had to use the term natural for the obvious reason that these days You can't just say a man or a woman

But That's a pretty tough road to hope because they're there row to hoe there you go, it's a farming thing

Because it's just so obvious That there are I think many people on that side that just admit well, yeah, that's what the

Bible teaches That's why we need to abandon the Bible But Graham has tried to present himself as an

Orthodox believer Who is just simply inviting us all to think about a better way a new way without abandoning all of our faith

But just just being more open and that's the whole reason he did this debate is he he doesn't mind that He's on the short end of the stick.

He just wants to get a few more people To think the way he's thinking that's that's

I really think that's his motivation So the debate

Wasn't all that difficult The inconsistencies in Graham Codrington's position were clear.

I Asked him during cross -examination what he would do because he and he's he has written this out before you

The the idea is to emphasize areas of agreement. We agree on this. We agree on this.

We agree on this It's just this one area. Well, that's what he was doing he was talking about how many times that you know, you know agrees with me on this and he agrees with me on the meaning of arson equates and so on so forth and then once you've sort of disarmed everybody about how we're all in agreement, then you hit your argument and And and and try to come up with a new way of understanding things

So to make a long story short We got into cross -examination and I asked him I said so if if someone came up to you who was a

Benetarian instead of a Trinitarian How would you respond to them?

Well, I'd take them to the scriptures Now he had said at the end of his opening statement

Or was at the end of his rebuttal wanted to I think it was the end of his opening statement. He said

That I was using the Bible as a mere rule book, which of course I was not But I am functioning on the basis of solo scriptura

And one of the things this debate very plainly made clear is that he does not believe in solo scriptura

Does not believe the scriptures are sufficient To address these issues. He goes outside of scripture.

There's no question about that. That was plainly evident in how the the debate went down and He had said

I'm using his rule book and then he said I know God and I know God is okay with gay marriage.

That was his that was the end of his that was his argument. I know God and I know

God is okay with with gay marriage Which is an argument that could be used for anything

Obviously anything anyone can say I know God and therefore I know

God is okay with the fact that I have a hundred sex partners of Male and female and maybe not even human

Origin, I know God God's okay with it. Is that an argument? Of course not. Of course not

But he knows that in that debate situation He's going to be forced to answer

Very serious questions and so he took a particular direction and It didn't work well, it didn't work well at all

It doesn't take a whole lot of skill on my part to present a very strong argument that Jesus taught a specific concept of marriage and So, by the way,

I have a picture up of Of Graham during the during the debate my dear friend

Rudolph Who according to Uncle Bubby is Randolph, but that's another issue that we won't get into right now, but everybody in in Durban is laughing right now

But Rudolph took this from the moderators position So he's looking out toward the audience and he's actually facing he's turning toward me because all the time he kept saying, you know

Dr. White and I agree about this and we agree about that and and that's that's probably what was going on at this point

He's also much taller than I am. I had to keep lowering the microphone. I felt like a little kid, but yeah, yeah, so Anyway But the debate itself was fairly

Controlled I guess it wasn't super fiery I mean I had to I said a few things that more than more than once I thought

Will this be my last trip to South Africa? with the things I have to say, you know identified homosexuality as a sin and and Somebody wanted one of the questions was or the questioners asked me what

I thought about a couple that decides just simply not to have Children at all and my answer was it's foolish

And you should have seen you should have seen people out there You say something like that and I'm just sort of like yeah

About children's a blessing from God, you know, and it's just so countercultural now even amongst

Christians to even think along those lines Obviously being an apologia and you know, the average number of kids there is about at least six is

Having some effect upon me. But anyway, I really do believe I really wish we had had more myself personally, but that's the other issue

So we're working on the grandkids. So we we could have it'd be nice to have some more grandkids, too Got a clear throat there anyway

Just a little little Grandfatherly pressure there. Anyhow, so it was it was it was but it was it was calm.

It was collected you know, we shook hands afterwards and and you know talk to people and There you go, but but but I don't think it was really contested

I think we won we won clearly on any any I think any debate judge

That just simply judges debates in a meaningful fashion would go that wasn't really much of a contest because it wasn't

So I was a little surprised when It was pointed out to me a few days later that Graham Codrington had posted an amazing article on his

Facebook feed and I I linked to it earlier and Did you see

Twitter Oh You're behind, okay and He says for my

Christian friends Here's a thought in the aftermath of a formal debate I was involved in last week on the issue of gay marriage a number of conservative

Christians have told me that you cannot argue Your case for gay marriage from silence, which he certainly was doing He could not provide any type of meaningful positive presentation

In other words if the Bible doesn't say gays can get married then they can't that's an immediately see

This is not what struck me is this is not Graham Codrington's argument in the debates because he knows he is a very intelligent man and He knows that when he's debating someone who's done nearly 170 moderated public debates as I have and written 24 books and Taught at the graduate level for nearly 30 years now.

Well, yeah, I think it isn't right 30 years this year anyway He ain't gonna get away with this stuff

I will I will shred him anybody who knows how to debate and argue and reason and think we'll just take him apart

So here's Graham Codrington doing damage control

He lost the debate Didn't make much of a much of a presentation couldn't and So now what you do is

And and this happens in politics every single day you rev your base up you throw red meat to them you use arguments in your

Presentations that you've never used in a debate because you will get torn apart if you do

And that's what he's doing. This is not the argument he made in the debate It's not like he came up with something new

This is how he is demonstrating here that he recognizes that the people who support him in this are not logical thinkers

They're not because this is this this is the reason doesn't present This is as you're gonna see

I'm gonna tear it apart Because it's easy to do any logical thinker any well -read person will tear us apart and that's not arrogance on my part

I'm saying anybody could do it because it's illogical. It's irrational. It's incoherent.

So You cannot argue your case for gay marriage from silence.

In other words There is a fundamental presupposition that in light of the nature of Scripture there needs to be a positive case you can't just simply put something forward and say well,

I Think this is good enough. No for a Christian We have something called

Scripture, which is a light to our path so In other words if the

Bible doesn't say gays can get married then they can't no Notice what he's done.

He's completely shifted the grounds of evidence He's completely shifted it

He knows that's not the argument that I made And he knows anyone who watches the debate knows that's not the argument

I made So why is he taking this track because he couldn't defeat that art of argument in debate?

But you can use emotions and really bad arguments To get people to stop thinking about what was in the debate itself, and that's what he's doing

The reality is the Bible gives a positive teaching about marriage It gives a positive teaching about the relationship of males and females

It gives a positive teaching about the law of God and the law of God's has absolutely positively

Nothing positive to say about homosexuality anywhere anywhere and every attempt there was a disgusting vile blasphemous attempt in the comments

This was the amazing thing this guy this guy just a Raymond de

Villiers Presents this vile Comment accusing

Jesus and the Apostles of Really bad stuff. I'm not even going to repeat it and Having said that Graham responded to him with a single line a new commandment

I give you and all that He didn't rebuke him he seemed to agree with him was stunning

Stunningly disgusting is what it was. I mean that of anything demonstrates that Graham Codrington has left

Anything that could be called Orthodox Christian yet if you can have someone write something like that and you respond that way

Don't talk to me about your orthodoxy Don't even don't even go there you you you've you've taken the mask off and you've stopped pretending at that point

So Um He goes on of course the

Bible doesn't say Notice what he's done. He shifted the ground. So instead of ignoring

So instead of dealing with the reality that there is a positive teaching on marriage It's a definitional teaching on marriage and there is a specific prohibition of the of the behavior

He's tried to say no. No, no has nothing to do with loving homosexual relationships How many times now guys how many times since when did when did we do the

Matthew Vines response? What year was that? I've I've lost track of it, but I was probably around 2011

I think So we're looking at eight years or so We have been dealing with the reality

That what they're gonna do their argument is we're gonna create a kind of homosexuality that we can try to sneak under the radar and And We're gonna try to say the

Bible doesn't say anything about this kind of homosexuality It's only talking about that kind of homosexuality and of course the kind of homosexuality.

That's the good kind of homosexuality Almost doesn't exist in the world by every study

I've ever seen and That is a faithful monogamous

Relationship by every study I've seen that's less than 1 % 99 % of every study

I've seen says that's not the experience at all so We make but we make this up to try to sneak something through What's 2012?

Okay, fine. I think I think he did I think he may have given the talk in 2011 and I think we responded to in 2012.

But anyways So it's been a number of years and This is the argumentation

So Having shifted the grounds. He then says of course the Bible doesn't say you can have a heart transplant

Irrelevant given the fact that none of them existed back then give blood same thing drive a car same thing eat broccoli

Don't have to Jesus, I mean the law allowed for for the eating of all those things given by God Use credit cards irrelevant anachronism or vote in Democratic elections irrelevant anachronism

I mean that can you imagine offering that during cross -examination? No, he wouldn't do it knows better Because these are not parallels by any stretch of the imagination the

Bible Jesus himself who Graham it wants to be I'm still

I stole a follower of Jesus. I Laugh at jokes that accused Jesus of being a homosexual, but I'm still a follower of Jesus.

I don't think for long I'll be honest with you. I don't think for long It won't be long till you know

He's off in in the the leftist wacko world And and laughing at when he actually took seriously anything the

Bible said at all That's that's that's the the trajectory he's on And I think moved much more rapidly along that trajectory as a result of this debate

These are all anachronisms They are not relevant to the fact that the Bible specifically has positive teaching on this particular subject

So he's raising irrelevant issues to try to confuse people. He thinks his followers It doesn't seem to really respect them very much

If he's willing to post this guy's because don't aren't they gonna recognize the different argumentation here Aren't they gonna see through this?

You must not think they can But those points seem to pass these reformed

Christians by ah These reformed Christians by and they're happy doing all those things

They are very very good at picking and choosing which bits of the Bible they apply literally and which they don't and they have one

Set of rules for things they believe and another for those who believe differently now Do you think he's gonna back any of this up?

Do you think he's gonna try to demonstrate inconsistencies in my exegesis that I offered? No, no, no, you just throw it out there

This isn't for me This is damage control. This is to get his followers going rah rah rah

And so they stop listening to what I actually said during the debate Because he had no answers for what

I said during the debate whether it was during cross -examination or anything else His answers to my questions during cross -ex were lame

My answers to his were perfectly consistent and fine He doesn't want them doing that his want them listening to that So let's let's get the emotions guys the best way to do things and if you don't see this in politics all the time

It's because you're asleep. You're not watching because this is exactly what politicians do But just for the sake of discussion, let's play this game their way

Since Jesus is the center of the Christian faith and we look to him and his example and teaching surely I can use this exact Same argument back at them.

Where in the Bible does Jesus ever speak against homosexuality? And where does any biblical author ever prohibit gay marriage?

again totally Begging the question the reason he didn't do this during the debate is because it would have gone very very badly for him

But now he's trying to get his followers excited and so he's willing

To abandon his own position knowing that these are these arguments are bogus arguments

But he's willing to put them in print and leave them up there I even left a note that I was going to review this material on the dividing line.

He still left it up there. He doesn't care He figures the people that he's trying to influence are not gonna listen to what

I have to say anyways, so he's safe So he's safe Where in the

Bible is Jesus ever speak against homosexuality He affirmed the law of God any I've and I've said this many many times not just in this context

Anyone who makes this argument is biblically illiterate or a deceiver one of the two and he's not biblically illiterate

So he's being deceptive Because any honest minded person is going to know that Jesus affirmed the continuing validity of the law of God He said anyone that teaches you to break any one of these commandments is least in the kingdom of God God's words gonna stand forever, etc.

Etc. The law is not done away with it is fulfilled fulfillment is not a negative term

It means what the law said is true and the Apostles continue to make application of that moral law

Jesus did not in any way shape or form Lesson the moral law of God he fulfilled it by bearing the wrath of God in himself

But that's the whole point when you start getting to the point of saying we can't define what sin is anymore and that came up In the debate as well.

You're in essence undercutting the cross itself So did you speak against homosexuality?

Yes when he said God's law is good When he said keep the commandments he did because that's there.

There's no question about the fact that it's there and As hard as Graham tried to separate

Leviticus 18 and 20 There's two different laws and there are two different contexts and Leviticus 20 is for the people of God and it's not in the context of Leviticus 18 and It prohibits

Homosexual behavior of any kind there is no way outside of mere arbitrary assertion and There's nothing historically to substantiate the idea that the

Jews saw any kind of a distinction that he wants to try to make Between merely cultic sex and some other perspective

So and where is any biblical author ever prohibit gay marriage again biblical authors define marriage consistently

The biblical authors had no concept of gay marriage. It's a violation of their understanding of male female covenantal nature of marriage and That is why he lost the debate so badly and anyone who tries to debate that subject will lose that debate

So badly as long as they're willing to debate someone who actually knows something About the covenantal nature of marriage and the relationship of the

Old Testament law with New Testament Revelation so This is just purely begging the question.

It is a capitulate this. This was one of the few times I've actually had an opponent in a debate within a few days write something that was an absolute admission

I Lost the debate in Toto That's what he's saying That's what that's what this is saying.

It's it's it's amazing at worst even you take the Bible entirely literally Good luck with that.

By the way, it is impossible and don't do any proper interpretive work No, she doesn't make any statements here about what

I said He made a comment at one point at one point he talked about how much study of Greek he's done

But at another point he made a comment. Well, I don't know it nearly as well as you and I I thought he was about to say something case or started to say something then stopped.

Well, actually he did say something about When I when I went through Matthew 19 and the other texts all

I had time to all I had was my iPad up there in fact, I think Yeah, yeah, yeah, so there's that's that's my opening statement and You can see that I have

Oops, I Can't blow it up anymore in that you see that I have my iPad right here and then my phone is my timer and All I had on my iPad were the the biblical texts and they were in Greek So I noticed him looking over there he saw that and So he made that come so he doesn't make any comment at all in this article

About well, you know you were wrong about that. So notice he's doing something general He's saying well these reformed

Christians. This is what they do, etc, etc, etc So taking the Bible literally, well if what you mean by that is actually accepting

Meaningful hermeneutical examination of what the Bible says on a topic. Yeah, we we do take it literally in that way

And don't do any proper interpretive work. The most you can say is that the Bible is against same -gender sexual activity.

Well, that's true Congratulations, but anyone who thinks that being married and having sex are the same thing clearly have never been married and have done

No theological or critical thinking on the matter but at the same time anyone who suggests who suggests the sexuality is not a part of marriage is also

Blowing smoke and that's what Graham Codrington is doing here, obviously That would be reductionist in the extreme so go on reformed

Christians if we are not allowed to argue in silence Show me the verse in the Bible that allows LGBTQI people can't get married and show me where Jesus ever spoke out against an

LGBTQI person Of course, I believe during the cross -examination I had asked him if Jesus was was truly who he says he was son of God He would have known that there were same -sex attracted people around him.

Why didn't he? stand up for them and Deliver them at that time rather than just simply repeating the traditional heterosexual normative views of his day

Didn't get much of an answer that one either because there isn't an answer that one there really isn't I Am so sick.

He says of reformed evangelical Christians. I have much more time for ultra fundamentalists

Who at least try and be consistent they believe men are in charge. They keep their women pregnant and at home

They don't have TVs don't listen to secular music. They only have friends from their own church They're close to being

Amish or closed brethren in many ways But at least they're intellectually and theologically consistent and honest conservative reformed evangelical

Christians. That would be me or Another breed altogether hypocrites intellectually dishonest self -righteous proud

Pharisees You know when you throw all that together and nothing in what you wrote before that provide any substantial argumentation especially in light of I Had laid out a case

If there's something wrong with the case, he failed in the debate and failed here to even make a dent in it

So, you know what you're doing is saving face damage control rah -rah -rah your people when you do that line

Hypocrites intellectually dishonest self -righteous proud Pharisees, but go on give it a go point to the verses in the

Bible I must have missed well Graham It's not a matter of you missing verses

It's a matter that you're in rebellion against them and you know it in your heart and you're tortured about it

You have no peace about this you're just trying to kill that conscience and The only way to do it is to do it every other person who has gone off into wacko leftist liberalism before you has done

They silence that By stopping making any kind of public affirmation that the scriptures are actually the

Word of God That's what you're gonna have to do That's what you're gonna have to do.

So There you go. I Was I was amazed

Again, Graham, you didn't you didn't have to you know, post something on Facebook that says yeah, I lost that debate, but you did

You did Maybe you didn't think that I would see it. Maybe you didn't think I'd review it Maybe you don't care.

I get the feeling you just don't care. You just don't care about look Let me show you some other pictures a week later

Well, let's lighten it up for just a second Check this picture out. I took this as I was getting ready to fly out of Joburg to Heathrow This is

Spurs Now this is in the the

Joburg Spurs Called soaring Eagle each each one of their

Spurs Restaurants has a different Native American name. The one in Pacha's room is

Montana. This is soaring Eagle I forget what the name was in Randburg the one that we ate at.

I like Spurs Their their chicken quesadillas are actually really good Their burgers are alright.

Rock -a -mama down there is better than Spurs as far as the burgers go, but anyway

Can you imagine anyone getting away with this in the United States today? No way ain't

Oh Washington Redskins, they're going hey

Hey, I didn't get away with that but I mean there the

I think I might have I think I might have I think I may I think I took a picture of One of the menus the very first Yeah here here.

There's That yeah, here's that that's their actual. No, this is their salad and french fry dressing.

Oh Yes, you are Yeah, see there's there's the actual Notice it's trademarked.

There's trademark right there there's spur and It's it's the it's the whole of it's the whole

Washington Redskins thing on steroids. Oh Man That's that's spur.

Yep, and I love Spurs Spurs great. I really I really do think Spurs great.

It's it's good stuff Every Time I've posted about every time

I go to spur. Yeah, here's yeah, see here's here's the that's that's the outside soaring Eagle spur

Spurs steak sandwiches soaring Eagle That's in the Joburg Airport. Yeah, see there you go.

And you can see there's the you know, there's that's the thing I showed you just now and I've eaten there many times.

It's great. It's good stuff. All right, so The first Some of you may have seen the story.

I'm just ask you to pray for Menzi the Jehovah's Witness from from Durban I We stayed at a real nice hotel, it's very thankful the folks there in Phoenix put us up Real nice place

Every time I've gone down to Durban I've run along Um Shalonga Rocks Beach the promenade there and it's about It's two and a half

K or so. So you do one lap. It's five. So and It's just beautiful.

I've gotten some gorgeous pictures of the sunrise over the ocean because you're right along the ocean so I Saw that we were two and a half kilometers from there.

So I said, okay I'm gonna do a warm -up walk of two and a half K down to the beach and then I'm gonna do a 10k

And I'll do two and a half X will be 15 K That make for a good real good workout Problem is

I the only day I could do it was Saturday morning and we had a debate Friday night that went really late got to bed after midnight and To get up and dressed and walk down there all before sunrise meant.

I only got four hours of sleep So I planned to get some I did and I did get some sleep later in the day, thankfully

But anyway, I just I was like look I'm here I'm you don't get to do this very often

This is you know, I pushed myself to do So picture this.

All right, I'm Walking out. I get down to the beach and you're just starting to see a little light in the sky

This is if this is the picture I took And this actually is much brighter Than it was at that time, but you know how pictures can brighten stuff up So I walked walked out onto the pier and I wanted to get a shot like that and As I walk out there's this guy

There's one person on the pier just one person Standing at the end of the pier facing out toward the ocean and he looks like he's preaching

He looks like he's preaching and I'm like So I take this picture and I guess in taking that picture

That got his attention and he said and I said and he said all right I don't didn't know anybody was out here.

And I said Didn't mean to interrupt her preaching And he says no, that's okay.

I was just thinking about I was thinking about Psalms 1 1 and he shows me his

Bible and Oh good grief, okay.

Anyway, um It's stuff coming across Twitter and So I the thought crossed my mind and I decided to go for it

I Just put my hand on his shoulder. He's a young guy and I said Well, actually, you know,

I'm a Bible professor a Bible professor and I said just want to point out to you it's a

Psalm 1 1 not Psalms 1 1 because You would never tell someone to look up hymns 106 you'd look up hymn 106 and so that's

Psalm 1 he's like Oh, I had never thought about that. Thank you. That's your Bible professor.

I I'd love to I'd love to I really want to learn more and more and He closes his

Bible First thing I noticed it's held together by packing tape and The second thing

I noticed immediately is it's a new world translation of Jehovah's Witnesses So I looked at the

Bible I said so you're one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, yes I am but I'm open to learning

Very open -minded so I directed him to material on YouTube and started my run and After the first turnaround,

I'm like, you know, I Should have given him something more. I'd love to send like a

Bible, you know, and So when I ran back past the pier

I looked out there and I couldn't see him So I was like, well, I think he's really seemed interested.

So I have a feeling he's gonna look that stuff up. So I Ran the 10k ran it faster than I had in a long time because there were there were people all over the place

You know, you don't want someone older than you running past you so you had to work harder It does help the competition

So I was it like 9 .8 K. I was pushing through the last bit When I glanced to my left and who's sitting on one of the benches

But this young fellow So I finish up the 10k I come back to him. I'm still breathing hard and I Want to give him my email address he's had nothing to write with and I certainly don't so I give him my phone number and You know offered to send a material things like that That's what

I find out. His name is Menzi and he's studying real estate or something along those lines He had he had sand all over his feet and he'd taken his shoes off He had gone walking on the beach and his pants were all wet because he'd gone right out to the edge and stuff like that And so we had a brief brief conversation, but I gave him my contact information

So pray that Menzi will get in touch so we can send him a real Bible and but can you imagine being one of Jehovah's?

Witnesses out in the dark at the end of a pier in Durban, South Africa And one person in the darkness approaches you and it's me

The guy you can then go on YouTube and watch the debates with Jehovah's Witnesses like Someone's got a target on my back and it's like yeah, let's hope so.

I I do hope that there will be a target on your back But I have actually have it.

Oh here. Here's the pier. Look at that in that beautiful That's that's really that's really gorgeous you can blow that yeah, look at that So we were that's that's what we were talking right there that's where we were that's where I took the first picture and So that was the pier it goes out and There's actually

There's actually a lighthouse. Let me see if I if I got yeah, here we go And check that out.

No nice it's just a just a beautiful beautiful You can see why

I want to run there at At Sunrise it's

It's a beautiful place. It really really is now. I don't run the sand that would be better for you But you certainly ain't gonna set a record in your 10k running there, but you can sort of see over here.

Oh, okay Some people just don't want to look at my pictures fine You can see some of the promenade going along there and this is pretty much the same area where Menzi was actually

This is pretty much where I ran into him. So but hold on. Let me let me get one of the best ones here

Yeah, now check that out, I mean that's that's Calendar level quality.

You can see a cruise ship out here or it might it might not be a cruise ship it sort of looks like a cruise ship, but it might not be it could be just a standard vessel, but you can see why

I want to Run along that particular area. So anyways, there's

Menzi. So here is The universal challenge an invitation to rational thinking and comparative religion from Iqra and Here is the great debate.

What did Jesus preach Christianity or Islam? Evidence in the Bible and Quran. There's me.

There's a you Karim and then look at the title underneath it Iqra to tame an

American great white on South African shores As Soon as I posted that Summer put up a picture of a great white coming up and you know, you know, if it's a shark

She's gonna she's gonna be all over that Her fascination with sea creatures sometimes is a little a little weird.

Anyway, so We saw that as soon as we got in we grabbed it here's

Here's a you Karim and the moderator and timekeeper here, but you'll notice that that a you've had a

Had a shiny shiny suit on that night and The light.

Oh my goodness We both had the same problem. The there was no shading.

There was no filtering on it. It was just a two Mega bright lights right in our eyes

So if you would look up to try to look at the audience first I could barely see the audience because these lights are so bright But then when you'd look try to look back down to your notes your eyes aren't as time would go by are just covered

With those bright bright bright bright light flashes to where it's almost impossible to read

Your notes after a while just the just some of the fun stuff that you you go through so during the during the break and then after We had some great conversations and these three guys, especially

I had a really good conversation with they're they're really listening They were listening to both sides and I really appreciate that and they came let me show you they came the second night

Here they are There we are This is the second night this is after the debate with Yusuf Ismail, so same guys and so they came they traveled to To do both and we had really good conversations.

We really did Pray for them and for the the conversation there So the the debate the first night look it's it's not too difficult to demonstrate that Jesus Taught Christianity and not

Islam What the Muslim does is they go for similarities where do you know?

They always go to the rich young ruler and GSA keeps commandments and that's what Muslims do and I just point out at the beginning

That's not enough The reality is that we have to look at what separates us

And once we've done that we asked the question did Jesus which on which side of those issues that separate us to Jesus teach and And so I it's not that difficult to present numerous texts and I did for did for Matthew Mark Luke and John So I went from all four

Gospels presented material where Jesus taught things that the Islamic Jesus could never say and so Not much of a challenge on that level

But you're dealing with the standard objections and look you have to always deal with the standard objections

It's sort of like, you know over the years how many times anyone who's witnessed to Mormons as often as as we have

You've gone over James 2 20 so many times that you could do it in a comatose state But you have to keep doing it and you have to do this well the last time is did the first time because it may be the first time this person's ever heard it and So the same thing in this situation

I wasn't looking for a you could aim to add something new to the Islamic Christian dialogue Because he represents

Akhmed didot and Akhmed didot didn't do that either So the second night

I was sort of hoping for a little bit and it did add something I think to the to the dialogue but the debate was on whether the

Quran is uncreated and Yusuf said some things that I'm think he's gonna have to be answering for amongst the

Muslims At one point he quoted somebody who said that the Quran is fundamentally a response to Muhammad's mind

Now most Muslims I know Believe that the Quran existed forever on an eternal tablet in heaven and that there's not even a fingerprint of man on it

So to turn it into something that is a response to Muhammad's mind I think for most of them is sort of sort of like whoa, really what?

And it ended up getting Yusuf went off into all sorts of stuff at some point during the cross -examination He's asking me, you know, he repeated the error that he made in the in the

Gray Street Mosque about John 1 1 You don't remember where I played Dan Wallace recorded like a 10 -minute audio file

Explaining where he was wrong and he repeated it. Anyways, I was like Yusuf, dude.

You've just got to stop doing this You're just wrong about this But Anyway, so we were talking about all sorts of stuff and I had to say to him

What does this have to do with the Quran being uncreated by the way? And he eventually went back and we talked a lot about Zainab bin

Bin jash, which I had brought up in the conversation anyways during the audience

Q &A now, by the way, this is an Anglican Church a Very liberal

Anglican Church and We had had this woman had come up to us who had been at the last debate and she said

I'm not gonna be staying Here because you are too hostile And she's from the church She was she both

Yeah, anyway, I'm not even go there we just referred to her a snowflake lady just you're just your standard

So far on the left Anglican that it's just anyway, it was just us well, it was just I mean you come up to the

Christian speaker and The previous debate had been on predestination and election

Obviously had not man She would have fled from the debate the night before because because I you've and I are people in the audience started vocally participating shall we say there were some a lot who

Akbar is going on and a lot of Amen's going on and oh, she never was survived. It just never would have survived it just anyway

So yeah, she was yeah So this fellow in this picture that I'm gesturing to who's holding an open

Bible Gets up and asks a question. It's an Achaemenid question. It's based upon the

Kami Ohanian at first John 5 7 Surprise surprise surprise I've Done a lot of work on first John 5 7 over the years

He asked the question based upon the footnote in the Good News Bible. That's what he's holding there and So but but there also all sorts of false assumptions that he made in his question all sorts of and so I Started to answer and he walked back to his seat.

Well, I could see where he was. I could see him from where I was sitting and I'm still talking and he starts talking to the guy next to him.

So now what are you gonna do in a situation like that? I'm moving pretty quickly towards 60 years of age, and I'm noticing something.

I'm becoming more and more like Clint Eastwood in his old movies.

I mean his new movies where he's old. Get off my lawn With the gun in your hand and I just look at this guy and I just called him out

Straight up front. I stopped answering the question. I said sir You walked up here and asked me a question

I'm answering your question and you're not even listening to the response, which means it wasn't a question for you

You're trying to make an objection, but you don't care whether it's a truthful objection or not

Because you're not even listening to the response we've got to get past this people and you can just sort of see everybody in the audience is just sort of I Mean the speakers calling this question around I did

I called him out Well once the debate was over he comes up to my table and you'll notice that that here's here's the right here here and here are the three

Muslims from the night before so they're listening and He's like Dr.

White, Dr. White, let me explain. I said I know what you're gonna say. Are you willing to listen to a response? Well, but you just need to hear what

I said. I don't care what the Good News Bible says Let me tell you the truth and so some of the guys around hey, just listen what he has to say

So I went through a whole thing about Codex 140 on us and first John 5 7 the

Kami Ohanian and the da -da -da -da -da -da -da I gave it all to him gave him a little bit of a history of the

TR and everything just served on a platter and I get done and he says

But I just want you to understand and he reads the footnote which says Which gives the the three witnesses and then says this is not found in a manuscript before the 16th century and I said

I just got done telling you that in fact I even told you which manuscript is first found in and so I turned to the other guys

I turned to the other Muslims and I said guys Didn't I tell him what he's now trying to tell me and all the

Muslims are going. Yep sure did So once the Muslims were like, yeah, he already answered your question dude, then he sort of oh okay, and eventually and You see

I'm gesturing to him. I I Went after this guy I really did

I was saying look I'll tell you what I said.

I've written a book called the Forgotten Trinity you get a hold of it It's available on Kindle so you can get down here easier

When I come back to Durbin the next time I will take you out to dinner if you will read the

Forgotten Trinity, and we will talk about what it says and Eventually, he gave us his his contact information

And It all went well, but I Was straightforward just a little bit straightforward in In talking to him about about what was going on there because it was it was important so That's what was going on down there.

And then I did Do a radio program

On 657 in the morning That we flew down to Durbin.

Yeah With Tyrell a Tyrell hog. It's Tyrell hog here Unfortunately, we got we thought it was from 9 to 10 and so we planned our

Getting to the airport and that's what I was working with when I got you had you change the flight times

So we'd have enough time to get there The program was from 9 to 11 So we get to the top of the hour.

I'm sort of gathering my stuff together and he's very clearly Expecting I'm gonna be there for another hour and we're like Uh, no

And so I was disappointed I didn't mean to disappoint him But I stayed till 20 after and We still made it in plenty of time.

We were we were fine, but we I stayed to 20 after so I did an hour And 20 instead of two hours But it ended up If what was funny was he started the program by reading from my book on grieving

About the story that introduces the whole book When summer was seven and I'd sort of gotten part of that story

And it's heavy, I mean it's really Very heavy heavy stuff and then he goes so tell us a little something about yourself.

How'd you get into apologetics? I'm like, I'm sorry You can't you can't read that and then just leave it hanging there and so I immediately dove into The story of behind the book and we did a whole hour and 20 minutes on grieving which

I've done many times, but man, it's just so heavy and it's so hard it's it

I know I know a lot of people are helped by it and stuff, but it's Talk about leaving your batteries drained

That's that is a that is a topic that leaves your your batteries right that is the social justice movement the two of them together

Definitely leave my my batteries drained all the time. So Like I said the ministry at Antioch Bible Church down there and and then we we

At the church there in in Phoenix with Adrian Palai and and the elders there just a

So thankfully turned one of the fans on though. I mean it may be Spring down there, but it was it was very very warm.

I was I was losing it But we did Psalm 33 with them and had a wonderful time with the guys there. They're just Lovely believers.

It is wonderful to have those connections and to to see faithful men ministering

In those places it is a fulfillment of of Christ's promise. He's building his church. He really really is and um

Getting to getting to visit uncle Dennis, uh, or as he in the story, he tells uncle bubby

Again only they are laughing. There is only a small number of people in Durban, South Africa and one guy in Johannesburg Randberg, they're laughing right now, but it was really funny

And and it's fun to have experiences like that All around the world.

It really that was the first house that I've tasted Roy was tea in And I ate

Indian curry there just because uncle Dennis's uncle Dennis and so you eat the Indian curry And when you're at uncle Dennis's house and and um

Even though they made it mild for me because i'm just that you know I have to you don't want to kill the poor guy from the

United States. Um, so but it is uh It's it's awesome to get a chance to to minister in places like that and look

I know this but we We can do that because you all support the travel fund we've got

Two more overseas trips already Uh just this year And australia is a long long trip um so If you want to keep hearing stories like this if you want to help us keep making these kinds of memories

Uh, the travel fund, uh is is one way All of you who've given to that when you see these pictures and you see me standing in majority muslim context you made that possible

You made that possible we couldn't do it without you and um, we don't have

Big rich people who take care of this kind of stuff. We really don't we've had People show up once in a while in the past but That never lasts.

It's always Just the folks that go Yeah, I like I like You know this year you've been in we've seen pictures of you in samara, russia

Um and in london and south africa and now you're going to the australia

North uh, the netherlands netherlands. Yes. Um, you know, you've just been uh, that was december

Well, yeah, but didn't do anything there I'm, sorry

The frankfurt airport does not count If you're gonna do something in germany, then you got to get out of the airport and go go speak go speech someplace

And speak someplace um anyway, uh We've been all over the place and the only reason we can keep going all over the place is because you folks make it possible so uh support us and support the travel fund and And that makes it all

That makes it all possible. We are looking at at least one debate in australia

So we've got one debate in salt lake city one debate in australia And then one two three

Four or five so I got five. Yeah, we'll be well It's going to be a a major eruption of debates that you can uh that you can access, um

Once all these videos get uh get posted, uh, we'll be we'll be well on our way to approaching the the 200 mark.

Um, And unlike certain people from back like in 2010 that made up stories about doing debates you can actually watch all of ours

It's or listen to them. Uh, almost all of them There's still there's still there's still a couple early ones and then that one with the armenian attorney guy who did a really good job

But they just didn't bother to record it. Um that uh, I forget what year that was but But a lot of them the vast majority of them are still available to to either listen to or watch um on youtube, so we

Very very thankful for those, uh those opportunities. Um, so You might say but you didn't talk about any of the stuff that happened back here while you were gone

Something happened back here That's because um, uh, and and by the way, i'm just gonna throw this out here just because this isn't you know, but There are a couple people in south africa

Now right now right now Um, we are making inquiries about going back in march

March isn't all that far off going to cape town Because the guys in cape town we've sort of been ignoring them.

We've gone down there six times. We've been there once And there are three major cities. You got johannesburg durban and cape town

And so we want to get back to cape town There's there's a reason for doing this at that particular point in time too that we'll get into But Uh, we had

I had a couple conversations with people And south africa is swimming

In social marxism and critical theory and feminism and intersectionality

Just swimming in it and so, um a certain

Summer jaeger has a lot of fans down there that would love to see her come down And do some teaching on feminism and things like that, uh in that area and so sort of throwing that out there and hmm

That would be that would be very enjoyable. I certainly expand her horizons a good bit obviously um but For me getting getting a global perspective and it's one thing to go to london

But there are you know when you think about places that are most like the u .s

Uk is going to going to be one of those places. It's going to be most like the united states south africa

I think there are 18 dialects normally spoken in south africa, but everybody can speak english

Um, you'll hear afrikaans and you hear like I said all these different african dialects as well But everybody can speak english so you can minister there very very effectively um, and yet you'll also

See Of those third world sections as well as the first world sections. It's a study in contrast.

It really is um But uh, yeah, well, that's certainly something we're thinking about Uh would be wonderful if the lord would make a way available for that to happen

I just don't know how exactly it would but we'll we will uh, we will see so uh, keep that in mind and I I am the world's worst marketer and advertiser

But let me remind you That's in 2020 late september um

We are going on a cruise And it's not like a lot of the cruises we've gone on in the past In fact, it's not like any of the cruises we've got in the past um

This itinerary takes us from rome athens ephesus to israel

And utilizing the fact that israel is a very small nation

Incredibly small nation You can simply go to the various port cities in israel

And take a bus anywhere And it doesn't take you long to get there.

I mean if you got a on a bus in tel aviv and Just headed straight west to the border

It would take you about 40 minutes maybe at most and you'd be out of israel

That's how that's how narrow it is just straight across so Being able to get anywhere from those port cities is very very easy

And so the advantage of this is you unpack once You sleep on the boat

And you don't have to be packing unpacking lugging your luggage from place to place to place to place

That's the big advantage of being able to do it this way And seeing ephesus in athens

Just throw it in there and rome for the fun of it. You know, no big deal um but um, so the details are at alman .org

I We're doing this along with apologia, so jeff jeff durbin and I'll be doing lion's share of the teaching and um, obviously we're

Really jazzed about it, uh being able to teach in places like capernaum or beth seda or jerusalem or wherever else

Is uh is a tremendous honor, uh, but it'll also be a lot of work, uh for us, especially but we're willing to do it and I know it's funny

I've talked to people people in south africa knew all about it people in australia know all about it word has gotten out

And there are a lot of people just would love to do it but especially people down it's not all that expensive to get from south africa to rome, but um

I have a feeling we're gonna have a lot of europeans Because that's they're the they're right there. That's the easiest for them the rest of us have to pay to get there, but It's a bucket list trip.

That's just the only way to put it. It's a bucket list trip. It's something it's a once in a lifetime thing and uh, we're still over a year out on it and but don't

Let that lull you into thinking that I can I can worry about it next summer. No, you won't

Another group is doing the same itinerary and they have a 300 person wait list Uh, so keep that in mind, but I need to keep reminding folks about it

Uh, because it will be an amazing an amazing thing and will also help me toward my status for the year after Yeah Because I hey look folks

I'm an executive platinum. I'm i'm top top tier I don't think I would travel if I wasn't i'll be honest with you at my age

I don't know that i'd be able to travel if I wasn't because you do you need all the advantages you can get and When you show up if it takes you three days to recover from your trip, you're pretty much useless to everybody uh in in the process and so, um, i'm very thankful to To be executive platinum on american, uh, because it helps me get here there and everywhere

So with that, uh, obviously I imagine we will try to do this again tomorrow and that'll be time to Deal with um

Any developments that have been going on back here and there have been obviously Um, but I just didn't want to talk about that stuff.

Um Had a great trip to south africa It's a it's a troubled country.

There's a lot of corruption. There's a lot of violence um murder property crime and things like that, yes

But it's also a beautiful land with with beautiful people and um, there are good churches there and there's a lot of people that are leaving

And that's hurting some of the churches there Um, but there's still a huge area of missions, uh, and I love south africa and in fact the uh, the world cup of rugby

Is starting in about two weeks in japan and the south african springboks are

Sort of favored. I mean they handed the all blacks in new zealand. Uh, drubbing recently beat beat australia, too

So, uh, there's a lot of excitement down there about that and i'm sort of excited about too I want i'm gonna be trying to watch those matches online myself.

So um, and in fact the funny thing is while I was traveling one last thing i'll try to take it to 315 nice even time um

While while people in the u .s were talking about andrew luck's retirement and the

Damage that football does to the body Um, the rest of the world was ignoring that And was stunned

Uh by the test cricket match Called the ashes between australia and england

Now i've known about the ashes for years because first time I went down to australia. I think they were playing at that time

And I think i've told the story the ashes were being played in australia when phil johnson and I were in brisbane

A number of years ago and he and I were sitting in in the little apartment that he was in Watching the ashes trying to figure this game out

Because cricket I i've thought about buying a book understanding cricket, but I think it's about yay thick.

Um, and So I just haven't had time to get to it, but i've had it explained to me Uh david's tried to explain it to me and people in england tried to explain it to me

And i've started to get it. I I sort of understand. So, you know, I know how you can score the runs and stuff like that um but The ashes is one of the biggest things that goes on and Phil and I were watching one day and this australian guy was real close to the batter

And that that cricket ball is is much harder than a uh than a baseball and That the the england batter hit it

And it hit this australian guy directly in the face right in the mouth

And He's bleeding and he just Spits out some teeth because it knocked a few teeth out

And then they went and had tea Since then they went and had tea Because that's what you that's what you do.

Let's let's have tea now. Okay, we'll go have tea Oh cool, so anyway, there is this one batter

I I mentioned his name on twitter and i've already forgotten it. There are people actually suggesting this guy be knighted by the queen

Because he single -handedly put on a performance batting in this test match

That was epic and kept england alive By his one and that's what all the world was talking about.

They're they're all excited about the rugby world cup because france and And it's basically new zealand australia south africa and france.

Those are the big four Uh, so they're all excited about and then the other thing was cricket Uh, and that would mean pakistan india cricket's huge in those places because of colonialism they still play it and they love it

Uh, so yeah, so Everywhere I went in heathrow. That was what was up on the screens.

They're replaying this guy's epic performance In cricket, so it was a little bit of a different thing.

So Global traveler. There you go. That's that's that's what happens. So anyways, uh, thanks for for listening

I assume we're gonna look at the same time tomorrow and we'll uh, Obviously not be talking about the trip to south africa at that point, but we have other things we will be dealing with So thanks for listening.