Calvinism vs Arminianism Day 2

We are not going to waste any time with intros, with background, with reviews. We're going to dive right back into the discussion on Calvinism. I don't want to frustrate you. I'm not going to be taking calls today.

You can always call Dr. White on his web radio program. But I want to get maximum time for our dialogue. You can get involved in the online discussion. And tomorrow, I'm going to reiterate some of my own views.

And all of you who are Calvinists, all of you who differ with me, you can go for it tomorrow and flood the phone lines with your calls, critiquing, interacting with me. But right now, Dr. White on, those not familiar with Dr. James White, he is one of the foremost Christian apologists today, solid theologian and on the forefront of standing up for the faith.

99 of the time we are cheering each other on in terms of standing up for the faith and righteousness and the dignity of the name of Jesus in the midst of this fallen world. And here we are telling him, James, thanks again for being on the program.

Opening Remarks and Ministry Updates

It's great to be with you, Michael. And someone just pointed out to me and I hadn't even noticed this. Do you realize that, so this is not a very colorful debate. White and Brown is sort of like an Amish debate.

And I, uh, when I debated a reform rabbi last September, he was silver and I was Brown. The only challenge on that one was that he was almost an atheist. Well, that's, yeah, that's a shame. That was, that was a little different, but, um, Hey, just want to remind our listeners, Dr. White is going to Islamic leaders is website.

A O M I N. It's an alpha Omega. Get behind what he's doing as he lifts up the name of Jesus. And that's going to be quite an environment, isn't it?

Well, it was when, especially, uh, in the November of 2008, when we did five debates in London, it was a tremendous privilege to stand in front of an audience where half of the audience, uh, is, is in Islamic garb.

Some of the women in full Burka, you can only see their eyes. And to be able to proclaim the deity of Christ to proclaim that, uh, he is our creator, our maker. You cannot be neutral about him. He is not merely a Rosule.

Uh, he is truly the son of God. And, uh, we have to deal with him as he was, uh, revealed himself to be. So that was a great, a great privilege. And it amazes me when I think of, uh, how this ministry started that I could be in London having that opportunity.

And if I could just mention really quickly, because we want to get to our topic, but tomorrow afternoon, I think I mentioned this to you. We'll be doing a debate on my webcast with Tim Staples. Mr. Staples is one of the staff apologists for Catholic answers.

And he and I are going to be debating first Corinthians chapter three versus 10 and following, are these relevant to the concept of purgatory? So it's going to be sort of an exegetical debate for 90 minutes.

The purgatory debate. Yes. So folks go, go to Dr. White's website. And, uh, then you can listen and you can listen to the webcast. And then we're going to be planning out some times when I can go on this broadcast and get into these things.

Great. Oh, okay. Since you just mentioned that I'll mention that for those of you who have not seen the Tyra Banks show today, I'm actually on it. There's a discussion, very sad topic, so-called transgender children.

These are little kids that think they're trapped in their own body. The whole show goes in one direction. I have one little segment to speak the truth and it was prerecorded. So I think that's going to be going on in many TV stations right after this.

So, hey, we're in the thick of it by God's grace. All right. So here's, here's what we're going to do. I got a lot of emails, points that we had discussed. So we've agreed to do some rapid fire, uh, answers and here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to ask the question and then give you my position, James, clearly and concisely. And then you can give viewers this, this way the viewers have, have both things out. We'll go through a few quickly and then we'll dive into limited atonement, issues and any, any direction that we go.

Does God Desire the Salvation of All People?

So the, the first question and I'll get, I'll ask it and then answer it so there's no ambiguity on my part. Uh, does God desire all men to be saved? I say absolutely. Yes. And the core of his inmost being of who God is is deep, ardent desire expressed in many verses that he does.

He takes no delight in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn and live. And Jesus longing to gather Jerusalem, uh, God's love for the entire world, which I don't believe can be limited to the elect, uh, God's delight to show mercy, that he has an ardent desire to see all people saved.

He has not willed in a forceful way that everyone will be saved, but he genuinely desires the salvation of all people. So James, how would you answer that? Does God genuinely desire the salvation of all people?

And that brings us right back to the point that we were discussing yesterday. And that is, uh, the fact that God's prescriptive will revealed in his word and in his law, uh, tells us that God commands men everywhere to repent.

And so there is an expression of God's prescriptive will in his law. And that is what we are judged upon. By the way, that is what we must live in light of because his secret will, his, his sovereign decree, which gives the very form to the fabric of time itself is, uh, such a thing that I was just talking with a friend about this.

And he mentioned, uh, John frame had, had said that, uh, in essence, God in his decree has not decreed that his prescriptive will not be sinned against. Uh, and in fact, there are plenty of, there's all sorts of passages of scripture where we see that, uh, God works such a way with Joseph's brothers, with, uh, the Assyrians, with, uh, Bimelech, with, uh, the crucifixion of Jesus, uh, where he works in such a way that he accomplishes his will.

Uh, and he doesn't just simply take the sinfulness of men. He actually accomplishes as well. So when we say God desires, uh, in the way that you just put it, uh, you have one desire for God. Uh, from my perspective, God's desire is to glorify himself with the salvation of a particular people in Jesus Christ.

And he also desires to glorify himself through the righteous judgment of those who remain in their sin and in their hatred of God. So there is a desire on God's part for the revelation of the entirety of his, uh, character, his divine character, including his mercy, his love, and his justice.

Right. So I affirm God's desire for the glorification of his name, and it'll be ultimately accomplished both through mercy and justice. I'm afraid just by the emails that I got asking for clarification, I'm able to answer this in a yes or no way.

Yes. God desires all men to be saved. And since we have biblical language, you know, saying it's not my desire that the wicked die, but rather that they repent or God saying how gladly I would have treated you like sons.

This is what I really desired to do. I desired to gather Jerusalem together. You weren't willing. Uh, this is expressed in so many different ways. Uh, isn't, isn't there a simple yes or no to God's actual desire?

I mean, I'm reading verses and we would all agree exegesis comes before theology. That's the building block for theology. So I know you have a detailed system that makes sense to you. I'm just afraid it's not clear to people listening.

Well, well, Michael answer.

Well, Michael, remember that, uh, uh, Shmuley Botiak through yes and no questions that you, that you had to, uh, very carefully delineate, uh, the, the problems in his yes and no questions. Cause they're based upon a problem.

Each one of those texts just mentioned, if we went to Matthew 23, 37, if we went to second period three knife, when does he kill a team? And I would be happy to do that. I believe that in looking at each of those texts, we would not find that what I've said is contradicted by any of them.

Uh, and in fact that, that, that it's very consistent with what I'm saying. And so when you say, is there a simple yes or no, when you're talking about God's desires, that's like saying, could you give me a yes, no answer on the issue of God's eternity?

Uh, can God be eternal and yet interact with beings in time? Well, the very question itself, uh, precludes the idea of simple yes and no, uh, responses. We have to allow for the fact that there is a desire for God that is revealed in his prescriptive will, in his law that says, uh, you shall not sell someone to slavery, for example, uh, or you shall not kill.

And yet, uh, that took place in history. And God used that to his own glory. And I believe that as part of understanding what God says, when he says, Yahweh does whatever pleases him in the heavens and on earth and the seas and all their depths, Psalm 135.

But there is, there is a clear difference between God giving a command, don't steal. And then saying that God desires someone to steal or God doesn't desire someone to steal. He doesn't desire them to steal, which is why he gives the command.

I'll tell you what we're coming up against a break. We'll continue, but it's fine. If you say there's not a simple yes, no answer to me. There's a simple yes. That's fine. I accept that. I just, I want a clarity.

I'm going to read this statement and then we'll take a break and come back with the question of the offer of the gospel. But two Calvinist scholars Stonehouse and Murray wrote this. We have found that God himself expresses an ardent desire for the fulfillment of certain things, which he has not decreed in his inscrutable counsel to come to pass.

This means that there is a will to the realization of what he has not decretively will a pleasure towards that, which he has not been pleased to decree, which is indeed mysterious. So you may have a reflection on that as we come back, but we'll continue to dialogue.

Thanks for listening. Email me at drbrown, drbrown at askdrbrown .org. Better yet, go to the line of fire discussion, the fire broadcast, Michael Brown, delighted to be with you with my special guest, Dr. James White, uh, in the midst of a busy schedule, he consented to come on, uh, foremost apologist and theologian.

And it's my joy and honor on the broadcast. Again, I'm not taking calls today, tomorrow, all those that would agree with Dr. White's position, uh, by and large, wherever you're coming from, I'll be taking calls.

So you can challenge me on different things, but I want to give maximum time for interaction with Dr. White. You can email me at drbrown, it's drbrown at askdrbrown .org, or you can go to the website, askdrbrown .org, click on the line of fire, get involved in the discussion.

And all our friends on the, he's alive radio network that are now listening to the line of fire. Welcome. We are thrilled to be on the air with you. And let me say again, James, you and I know this, but for the sake of our listeners, our best to present our differences clearly, uh, everything I do, I do with the utmost respect for James and what he stands for and what he does and his desire to honor and glorify the Lord.

And that's my, my deep desire today is that whatever we talk about glorifies the Lord, sharpens issues so that people can study the word and come to biblical conclusions. Um, James, I don't know if you had a comment on that conclusion of some Calvinist authors.

The Difference Between God's Prescriptive Will and Sovereign Decree

Yeah. If you wanted to comment on that, please. Yeah. You had, you had mentioned that, uh, in your presentation, uh, a few months ago and, uh, I simply disagree on that issue. And I attempted to offer in the Potter's freedom and exegesis of each of the key texts, uh, upon which that was, that was based.

And so my, my response would be primarily, primarily an exegetical one. And, uh, I hope maybe on, on my webcast. And in fact, I throw this out to you. I think what we should probably do is each one of us should select maybe three key passages, uh, and exchange them with each other and then go over those verse by verse, uh, exegetically, uh, uh, on the program.

And that might be the best way because honestly, uh, I hold this position fully aware of the fact that it would be easier for me, uh, to hold other positions. I mean, there's a lot of doors that are closed in my face because of this, but I honestly believe, and I know you believe this as well, but I honestly believe that the method of exegesis that I use to defend the deity of Christ against Sassanians, like Anthony buzzard who was commenting on your website yesterday, uh, or, uh, Greg Stafford, Jehovah's witnesses, uh, whatever it might be the same method of hermeneutics and interpretation I use there forces me to these conclusions.

When I go through John chapter six, I go through Ephesians one, et cetera, et cetera. So that's really what my conviction is here. Uh, and, and I've heard you say the same thing in regards to if it's what the word says, then I must believe it.

And, uh, so that's why I really feel that, uh, in my experience, getting into the word is, uh, is the best way to, uh, deal with these issues.

Yeah. And look, I, I, I was just talking to someone that was trying to help me to work with, with more different schools of higher learning to serve them in Jewish apologetics and Hebraic exegesis. And they said, yeah, well, this one door would be closed to you because you're not reformed unless you sign on the dotted line.

You couldn't see. So, you know, it always goes both ways, but okay. Back, back to, um, just simple questions and answers. And again, I'm perfectly happy if you say that there isn't a simple answer from your points.

I'm not trying to squeeze them. I'm just trying to get clarity. So next question, uh, that I was again, asked to clarify it and then give my brief answer. Does God genuinely offer salvation to all men?

I say absolutely yes. When the gospel message is preached that there is the full offer and the full ability by God's grace and the full provision in the cross for that person to be saved. It's a genuine and true offer, not a make believe offer that's impossible to ever come to pass that when God commands all men everywhere to repent, it's based on the fact that he's given all men over to disobedience, uh, and that he can have mercy on them all that Jesus truly is the ransom for all men.

That truly he's the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that truly the grace of God's appeared to all men, that Jesus has tasted death for every man, et cetera. So I believe it's a genuine and true offer that comes in keeping with God's desire.

Well, can I ask, can I ask, could I ask you to clarify one statement that you made? I think it was right toward the beginning and I'm getting old, so I may have forgotten the specifics of it, but you did you say that he has given to each one, the same ability or capacity or ability, something right toward the beginning, you said something along the lines of, uh, does he give each person the same, I guess the term would be prevenient grace.

What? Yes. One, thanks for asking for clarification. When the gospel comes to someone, there is an invitation from the Lord that is an enabling invitation of faith comes through hearing the word of God, that Jesus has truly paid for their sins and that person has a genuine opportunity by God's enabling grace to believe, to follow, to agree, to receive the gift, that there's a genuine opportunity.

Maybe that's the better word to use for every human being to receive the gift of salvation when it's offered to them through the gospel.

Okay. That'd be something I think would be very good to discuss because, uh, obviously from my perspective, uh, what, what we're talking about here is a situation, uh, and, and your specific question again, you want me to answer briefly was it the genuineness of the offer?

And I do not, uh, gauge the genuineness based upon my having knowledge of God's eternal decree. The genuineness is this. Any person who turns and believes in Jesus Christ will find him to be a perfect savior.

Any person, there has never been anyone who has turned in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ, who has been turned away by him. No reformed person believes that anyone could turn in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ and not be saved by him.

And that is the only way to judge quote unquote genuineness is that when I say to someone repent and believe and Jesus Christ will be your perfect savior. Um, uh, that is a message that I can deliver to anyone and have delivered to anyone.

Uh, because I absolutely believe that because this question really doesn't address the real issue, which seemingly is, is being raised along these lines. Well, if Jesus didn't die for everyone, well I don't know who the elect are and neither does anyone else.

And so we do not evangelize based upon knowledge of something that we do not possess. We evangelize based upon the apostolic exhortation. I preach like the apostles repent and believe in Jesus Christ and you will find him to be a perfect savior.

No, I just saw a website blasting me because I preach repent and believe. So again, we're, we're, we're in harmony on, uh, on that. Not as a, not as a, when we agree that repentance is not a work, et cetera.

But, but, uh, what, when I am looking at someone in sincerity and tell telling them the message and they say, well, I, I don't feel loved. I don't, I've never felt God love me. And I don't know if Jesus died for me.

I'd be able to say God loves you. Jesus died, repent and believe. Well, you couldn't tell them that part though.

But, but see the cost of that, first of all, I, if you could show me where the apostles responded as you just did, uh, then I would, I would be able to go with you there. But you see, the cost at that point is not only am I abandoning the apostolic proclamation of what it means to repent and believe, but you're also saying to an individual, uh, that Jesus perfect life was given in your place.

However, that's not enough because he did that for everybody. And yet every person standing upon the parapets of hell and eternity to come will all be able to say that they'll all be able to say, I have invalidated the very work of the son of God because he gave himself specifically to save me and he failed.

He wasn't able to do it. The price there strikes me as being a way too high to, to, to pay because we're leaving the apostolic proclamation.

Got it. All right. I'd say the apostolic proclamation is very much in line with what I declared and it's a message of God's reception of his love. Okay, we'll continue this. And then I got one more question.

Then we'll move on to further atonement issues. Yes. Thanks for joining us. Michael Brown with my apologist colleague and today theological opponent, Dr. James White. Uh, and we knew from the start being on the air together on these broadcasts, taking a couple of days would scratch the surface, be introductory.

Then the goal is we'll definitely exegete passages on, on Dr. White's broadcast. Yes. God willing. I always say God willing. Uh, I see that as thoroughly scriptural.

But, but I don't know why, Michael. I mean, God may have willed it, but it's up to our free will, isn't it?

We work together. He may desire me to be on the radio with you and I may stupidly choose not to and be held accountable. Anyway. Uh, and then God willing, we'll sit down and do a public hours. I think it would, it would be enlightening and helpful.

So I just want to respond really quickly to that last point. I see the apostolic witness as to you. Uh, the message of forgiveness of sins through Jesus is proclaimed. Therefore, it's a genuine offer will be saved.

Uh, certainly as I'm hearing that as an individual, I'm taking that as genuine, not duplicitous that, well, it means one thing to one person there and not to another. And God and his love has ordained things that he requires us to receive his gift.

And there's the reciprocation, but that, that would move us to, to the other point then, which if I could be clear on the, the question of, uh, does God specifically predestined certain individuals to eternal destruction?

That was his predetermined destiny. They are vessels for wrath as some have quoted Calvin saying doom from the womb for, for certain death. And therefore it could be your own child, could be your own spouse that that could be one of those prepared for destruction from before the foundation of the world.

So no prayer, no, no supplication, no cry out and nothing we could do could ever change that. That is their eternal destiny. Uh, I absolutely do not believe the scriptures teach that. Uh,.

What is your view on that, sir? Well, I can give you a yes or no on that. Uh, as long as I correct one thing, and that is, it is very common for people to try to create an equal ultimacy in the extension of God's grace in predestining people into salvation.

And then making that the exact same thing as some type of exercise that causes him to reprobate people. Uh, I, I, I want to distinguish between those two because obviously to save a sinner requires the extension of God's grace and mercy.

It's not just undeserved grace. It is, is demerited grace that is given to us. We are rebel sinners. We are, we are filthy in God's sight. Uh, we are worthy of judgment and yet in his love, he not only provides perfect salvation, but at the time that he is ordained by his spirit, he brings regeneration.

He brings life. He unites us with Jesus Christ and we experience salvation. So that's a very different thing than simply allowing a sinner to continue in their sin and to receive his just desserts. But with that distinction made, then I, I, I can say very clearly yes or no.

Yes. God from eternity past, according to the Westminster confession of faith, London Baptist confession of faith, they all say the same thing. The number of the elect is absolutely fixed. God knows their identity.

Uh, this is not, not only a surprise to God, but it flows from his purpose and his decree. It is not merely something that he discovers in creation. It is an expression of his purposes. Uh, and that has a two, two sided, you express the one side of it.

Uh, that is, uh, as a parent, one of my children could be one of those that God in his justice is going to pass over and bring under his, and I was already under his wrath. That is very true. But the other side that wasn't expressed is that one of those children could be an heir of eternal life.

And that means that there is no power in heaven or on earth that will stop the triune God from glorifying himself in the salvation of that child. And as a result, that child will only be able to glorify God for, as Paul said in first Corinthians chapter one, it is of his doing that you are in Christ Jesus.

So that anyone who boasts, let him boast in the Lord. So that's the other side of that is that, um, we boast only in God in that salvation, right? Of course,.

Of course we boast only in the Lord. I've never once heard a testimony in my life where anyone did anything other than boast in the Lord, his saving grace, his power. Uh, and you know, as is often mentioned when the jailor said, what must they do to be saved?

There was a response required. He couldn't then pat himself on the back. I, we receive his gift by faith. That's simple. So, so you, you embrace the fact because you love the will of God and whatever God does is good.

You embrace the fact that, that God and his sovereignty could potentially here's a godly couple. They love the Lord. In your view of being, uh, of elect believers, they pray that God would give them a child and they seek to raise this child in the fear of the Lord and follow all the scriptural admonitions with promises from God.

And yet it's possible they could do what God required. They could set that child aside to the Lord. They could pray fast for that child. They could, they could nurture them teaching the ways of God, but that it could be God's predetermined plan that that child was born ultimately for damnation.

And, and they that's something that we should embrace and rejoice in that.

That child was born to glorify God in whatever God's purpose for that child is. And even from your own perspective, they could do all of those things, but, and God could try and do his best to try to save that child.

But if that child simply doesn't cooperate, that child cannot possibly be saved. So I don't know how the, the raising in the, in the, in the fear and admonition of the Lord is, is an issue there. Uh, because obviously, uh, yes, they can do that, but they're doing that out of obedience to Christ.

They're doing that out of obedience to God's revealed will.

But they also know that in cooperation with that, that God will be doing certain things to win, to bring that child to himself or herself, uh, excuse me, to bring that child to himself. And, and that in doing those things, there's actually a process that's going on that God's at work at, as opposed to, he's actually working against that process because he has destined that child for damnation.

But he doesn't have to work against any kind of process at all, because that's what I was saying. There's no equal ultimacy between the two, but I just want to make sure people understand what you're saying.

That process, however, God tries his best, but unless you're saying that all children of Christian parents are automatically saved, I mean, ask David, uh, about whether, you know, children born in the covenant necessarily automatically saved, unless you're saying that, what are you saying from your perspective?

Are there not?

I'm saying that that child has every opportunity to be saved. And that's all I can ask for as a parent, as a parent, anything in life, I can't guarantee the future of that child, but I can guarantee that I will do certain things.

So that child will have an opportunity for an education that that child will have an opportunity to be loved. That child, more importantly, we'll have an opportunity to be introduced to God. God could have set up a system where he makes everybody do certain things.

He simply didn't. So that, that's his will.

Just one question, because I think this will clarify something. It sounds to me like you're saying God is already giving a 100 effort to save that child, right? Certainly.

Then why pray for him? Because that's how he set it up, that we are coworkers with him. And that like Spurgeon said, like it or not, asking is the law of the kingdom.

So when, so when I, as a Calvinist pray, uh, I've had many Armenians say, well, why are you praying if God's already done this? I believe he's changing me in my prayer. But if God is already doing 100 of his effort to save that child, what more can he do?

Oh, okay. Well, the 100 of his effort is in conjunction with us because that's how he set it up. That's why Paul said, we are fellow workers. We are fellow laborers with the Lord. That's he works with us and through us.

That's the way he set it up. I'm just following his system here. Anyway, we come back. You can take this up further if you want, or get over to the high priest. Yeah, let's do that. Friends join us. Askdrbrown .org.

Click on the line of fire. Get involved in the discussion there. Back with you short. Fire. Michael Brown here with Dr. James White discussing Calvinism to taking calls tomorrow. I just saw one chat room saying that someone sent me a note that Calvinist is supposed to flood the phone lines tomorrow on my show.

Please, please, please. That would be my highest joy. Uh, so tomorrow I'll, I'll reiterate again some of my own positions since I haven't written books on it or even discussion before now with Dr. White.

Again, I remind folks that, uh, I was a staunch Calvinist from 77 to 82 saved in 71 staunch Calvinist from 77 to 82 and my passion for the glory of God and love for the word brought me out of Calvinism.

The very things that Dr. White would say affirm his Calvinism on to your.

Calvinism and Personal Testimony

Yeah, that'd be a good idea. And by the way, have you turned in your John Calvin card? I just want to make sure you're not trying to use that to get in places and things like that. You need to, you need to send it back.

No, it got, it got rescinded actually. We took it back already. All right. Yeah, it got rescinded with scorns and mockery that I've abandoned the orthodoxy. Let me just say one thing though. I, I gotta get this off my chest.

Okay. I would think that Calvinism would produce a deep humility and that someone blog saying that that's what it should do. I run into so many people that have this arrogant thing that they have the truth and they look down their noses, scorning everyone.

It doesn't hold to quote reform doctrine. I can't figure out where that comes from. It's the opposite to me of what I would have expected. And I run into it so often. I mean, it's rare that I don't run into it.

Um, even as the show's going on, there was someone just copied me discussion where it's the same kind of thing. We have arrived, we have the truth and you idiot. Right. Armenians, you're hard to even say.

I mean, it's this, did you,.

Did you ever see, uh, the, the banner of truth publication called the practical implications of Calvinism by, uh, Albert Martin?

Uh, I saw it, but I didn't read it. I, I, I had a nice banner of truth library. I still do actually.

Yeah. I would, I would highly recommend it to, uh, to anyone, uh, because, uh, you're exactly right. Uh, that is, uh, inconsistent. Um, but I've also of course encounter many Armenians who, uh, on their side of things, uh, identify my God as a foreign God and a monster and, and all the rest of these things.

So I don't know if that's, you know, I, I do see that. And I think any, any reform folks in the audience, uh, who are serious and there's, and Michael, I think we should point out, there's a difference between holding to five points and living consistently with reformed theology, a church that is impacted by reformed theology.

It's going to impact everything, the worship, the preaching, uh, how everything's done. And so I'm not going to claim that my reformed brethren are all perfect. Uh, and we have differences, uh, between, uh, each other.

Uh, but we all want to look to the word of God as the final authority in these things. So.

Yeah. And, and issues on both sides. The reason I raise it is because I'm constantly hearing how it deeply humble someone. And then I run into this, we have arrived arrogance, you know, the same kind of thing.

When I talked to an atheist, you know, we know better and kind of looking down their noses. So it does hit from both ways. We can only call on people to be genuine disciples. And if, and if Jesus is truly Lord, then, then, uh, there's nothing in us except to bow down at his feet and worship him.

Um, but we're, we're obviously racing against time here, but I know there was a point you wanted to make. If you can develop in a couple of minutes, we can get it in and give a brief response before we're done today.

Limited Atonement in Hebrews

Well, very, very quickly. Uh, I wanted to, uh, present the idea since I had heard people talking about quote, unquote, limited atonement, uh, when they called your program earlier, I think one of the strongest biblical reasons why I hold the particular redeeming work of Jesus Christ is because of the book of Hebrews in the book of Hebrews, a book that is closed to so many evangelicals today, because they have no idea what its background is.

They, they don't, uh, spend any time in the Tanakh to be able to, to know why the arguments being made the way that they are. Um, in that book, we have the presentation of Jesus, not only as the one who gives himself epipox one time as the sacrifice for sins, but he is also the high priest.

And as we know the high priest, when he would offer the atonement on the day of covering Yom Kippur, he would enter into the holiest place with that blood of the sacrifice. And he would, he would cover, he would cover, uh, that seat, that place of Halas Moss of atonement of covering.

And with that blood, it was one act. No high priest would ever, uh, give the atonement and then, and stop there because the work was not finished at that point. There was a presentation. It's all one work, which the high priest does.

And so because of that, the book of Hebrews tells us that when Jesus entered into the holy place, he had obtained eternal salvation. He had not merely made eternal salvation, a mere possibility. He had obtained eternal salvation.

And Hebrews chapter 10 tells us that he perfects those for whom this, this offering has been, has been made. And so when people make the presentation, uh, that Jesus, uh, gave himself in a universal sense, but then when he enters in, he does not intercede for all those for whom he's made.

I see a contrast there, but I hear the music. Maybe you can pick it up on the other side.

All right. Yeah. And then we'll have to be brief. I'll give a brief response to that. Thanks for being with us, friend. Time again, a delightful James White as we get to press these issues and hopefully in further dialogue, uh, we'll question about more.

And for me, James, the building block for exegesis is philology. That's where my, my primary training is. And I wouldn't even see how far it's covered, but that's another subject. I'm sending an article.

I wrote on that in a best script for professor Barth Levine. But, um, if you could maybe, what would you see it as? Um, it has to, it, it means to expiate. It doesn't mean to cover. It means to expiate the tone.

It can also have a purging meaning, but, but anyway, it, it would not, that was just a minor footnotes as I'd written on it. And I know you love detailed exegesis. Sure. Um, but that didn't impact your overall point.