June 8, 2016 Show with Roy Yanke on “Restoring Deposed Ministers” PLUS Don Kistler on “Debunking Slanderous Myths about the Puritans”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. Who are listening via live streaming? This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 15th day of June.

I'm sorry this 8th day of June 2015 yes, I was looking at the wrong date on the calendar this 8th day of June 2015 and I am very excited about today's program both because I have a Brand-new guest that I've never interviewed before and I also in the second hour have one of my favorite guests returning to the program.

Restoring Deposed Pastors and the Work of PIR Ministries

This first topic that we are going to be addressing for the next hour is a very controversial issue. It's one that has Very like-minded brethren in Christ who are theologically aligned At times at odds with each other about how one is to deal with the pastor who has been deposed.

But we're going to be talking about that restoring deposed pastors with Roy a Yankee executive director of PIR ministries and then in the second hour, we've got my friend. Dr. Don Kistler Founder of the North Hampton Press.

Returning to our program Dr. Don Kistler is one of the most knowledgeable experts on the Puritans alive today and He is going to be addressing the theme debunking slanderous myths about the Puritans and We're gonna have a special emphasis today on the Salem witch trials since that seems to be Something that titillates the imagination of a lot of people Inside and outside of the Christian faith and where a lot of the stereotypes and slanders.

Flow from that whole account that took place in Salem, Massachusetts is a breeding ground for stereotypes caricatures and slanders about the Puritans, so We're gonna be having that discussion God willing in the second hour.

But first of all, let me welcome for the very first time to iron sharpens iron. Roy Yankee. Oh, thanks for being on and I'd also like now to introduce to you on the air. My co-host reverend buzz Taylor good to talk with you, right?

And.

This was a matter of God's providence that led me to interview Roy today. I Was in Harvey Cedars Bible Conference on the Jersey Shore along with my co-host reverend buzz Taylor a Couple of weeks ago.

We were invited to represent iron sharpens iron at a conference or a pastor's retreat actually that was being run by the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and PNR publishing and while there in the lobby I Bumped into Calvin fret who is the regional director of the ministry that Roy Yankee is the executive director over PIR ministries and Calvin immediately approached me when he realized that I was a radio talk host and handed me Roy's book and Said that I believe that this would be an excellent topic for discussion on your radio program and I agreed with him wholeheartedly.

So I'm thankful for God's providence in that meeting taking place between Calvin and I which led to the interview with Roy and The issue is near and dear to my heart because I personally know a number of Men who were pastors who were fired or deposed or exited.

Even.

Some who were excommunicated from for a wide range of reasons some where I Think it is clear that the church was at fault some where the the man in the pastoral Position was clearly at fault even very often to their own accounting of what happened the.

Thankfully some of these men that I know repented of their sins and were fully restored to membership in the church while not being restored necessarily to the pastorates and. So then you also have men who are just flagrantly unrepentant and and lose their positions that way but Will be interesting to hear the different varieties of scenarios that are Involved with this ministry.

PIR now. Roy I understand that PIR stands for pastor in residence. Explain that phrase, please.

Sure, that's the name was begun over 20 years ago and It it represents the title actually that's given to Someone who enters into the pastor in residence process of program in a refuge church. They are given a Calling as a pastor in residence for a period of time six to twelve months while they're undergoing a process of healing and restoration and rest working with the support team in the refuge church and So it's it's a title that's given to them that allows them to have Retained some dignity in their ministry role.

But we we typically encourage them to keep their their role in that Position to a minimum because the bulk of the work that they're doing after they've been exited in that context is their own personal healing the healing between The person and their spouse and their family so That represents the title that's given allowed them to put that on their resume Going forward because they have served as a pastor in residence.

We can help Make that transition into the next call easier.

Now you've got to explain the phrase refuge church.

Churches that Probably are already doing Gracious Healing and restorative work in residence program so they are a church who who raises their hand and says we're willing to Take on for a period of time this pastoral family that's in transition.

And we're willing to come alongside them and provide the space for them and time where they can heal and And allow them to to process what took place and then you know, see what the next chapter is that God has for them.

Why don't you explain how? PIR functions in other ways. Give us a full description of.

Peter. Yeah, so our mission is to partner with God's or hope. Our core process is the other side of the equation here and we talk about that. We network with Nominations. Talk about those so that people can be more aware of how they can encourage their pastors pray for them.

Watch for the signs of the talk to pastor trying to bring them to sides. So do. Seminars and workshops on relational wisdom. So we try to help church presented in there addressing the conflict and Issues that can create and then lastly if any of your listeners are familiar with Marvel Retreat and those We can resource to get away when they need counseling.

When they need to we have all kinds of resources that we can tap into now. Well, yeah, I'm sorry.

I was just wondering what led to The founding or the creating of PIR. To begin with. Sure.

Doctors a pastor out in Southern, California when the idea for customers we had been passing out there for a number of years and the incident the Gentleman that he was introduced to who had been and who is now working a secular job.

And as Chuck got to know this gentleman his heart really burned or Wanting to see this guy who was quite capable and should be back in ministry restored to that role. So Chuck and his elders happen to be an EP.

They did the first. Is that an evangelical Presbyterian Church? Correct. Okay, they did the first PIR program with this gentleman and process that eventually ended up being what we do today and Praise the Lord then 20 plus years later quite and.

And that's typically the story that we when we talk about and I don't always like to use that word.

Then what are the backgrounds of the PIR team members or staff members?

Well, I've been pastors. All of us have been pastors at one time or another. Language pastoral ministry is very sweet. All of us have served As pastors on a couple and all of us have gone through an exit so we know what it's like to experience the dissonance and pain and struggle of them.

All of them are have been Restored either. Some of them have actually gone through the PIR program. Others didn't go through that process. Formally, but all have been Either formally or informally restored to ministry and they get it.

They understand what it takes and.

Explain some of these PIR distinctions. You have a Spiritual focus. You have double the impact. You have local church focus long range focus Fundraising support and a proven track record. Go through the spiritual focus first if you could.

We talk about being involved in the restoration process that we We we don't trust that we've created the people who care for one another and pray for one another is where the real work. So the emphasis in the program is always on being and being present with others.

So it's very much Allowing the Holy Spirit and Jesus to work his work in people. So we don't.

Okay, and double the impact. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, that's a really cool piece of this is that not only are the But there's a tremendous impact that it has on the local church. They get alienated sometimes in ministry and It also has a tremendous impact for because now he has people who truly understand what the inside That's a pastoral life looks like and so they're better able to encourage and pray for him or her be able to walk with them through Times when they're in Christ, and you have a local church focus.

Parachurch ministry we used to do what it does best and that is to be the hands and feet of Jesus. It's in the context of the local church that this healing takes place. No one when someone exits a double whammy.

They haven't only just to fall back on the church and so The locals leave again that not all every church is a bad and how about the long-range focus aspect? I'm just interested in and able to enter and the fundraising support that you offer.

Tell us about that we When we set this up with the Refuge Church, we do not Ask the Refuge Church to hire them as an associate. We want to make sure they're clean and someone enters the program and when they leave the program They're moving into what it we don't want there to be any assumptions about well not as persons here.

So he's automatically going to either be a free assistant hang around and be the associate From that or not. Now it has happened. You know, God is Sovereign you can do what he likes and so there have been people who have stuck around in fundraising Reach out to family and friends for a very special you walk with and working through that.

And we've seen God do some amazing things For the guys and providing for that and you have a proven track record. I understand We do different in this ministry than what you might expect because we never Guarantee or assume someone is automatically going to go back into the same kind of ministry or any ministry at all.

What we're really concerned about is that they're restored three different levels that they are Restored to God first or to the church so that they can find their places part of the body again and then if appropriate vocational ministry and so When you think about it in those terms.

Every pastor who's gone through the pastor in residence those levels. Well, no that We have probably about a 95 to 96 fitness rate and seeing Them actually return to vocational now before buzz asks this question.

I just had something that's I know immediately in the minds of a lot of people out there. As you know Roy first Timothy 3 1 through 7 Reads it is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires to the office of an overseer It is a fine work.

Desires to do an overseer then must be above reproach. The husband of one wife temperate prudent Respectable hospitable able to teach not addicted to wine or pugnacious but gentle peaceable. Free from the love of money.

He must be one who manages his own household. Well keeping his children under control with all dignity. But if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the Church of God and Not a new convert so that he will not become Conceded and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

And he must have a good reputation With those outside the church. So he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. And there are many fine Christians including myself Who believe that there are deposed ministers whose sins?

Were so scandalous that they can never again be above reproach or have a good reputation with those outside the church. There are also men women and children who have been the victims of these pastors sins and abuse.

Who would be horrified to learn that these men? Had been restored to positions of authority in the church. What do you say to these people who may look upon your work with great skepticism or even outrage?

And that's a fair question although it is one that tends to the white screen a lot of times in our conversations with people and It's important to note that while moral or ethical failure is Let go because of conflict with board or church members.

He where the church plant has failed to thrive and so they're left hanging out and very discouraged. The pastors aren't.

Yes, I even know Situations where I believe that it is very vividly clear that the church Was the one in sin for firing the pastor for reasons that were unbiblical. So I'd yes, I do know all kinds of reasons why men have been fired.

Or.

Deposed or exited. But obviously there are as I was saying there were obviously as you know men who are child molesters or men who had adulterous relationships in the church things that go far beyond.

Even a private sin that could be repaired without public notification. These are things that become Scandalous in the community even with unbelievers and are the object of mockery and so on and so because of the fact that the pastoral Job, if you will or the calling the pastoral duty is a Privilege and an honor.

It's not a right of anyone and and of course God doesn't need anyone he can. Continue on just fine with his church without Pastors who have been deposed but as You were saying that there are men who have been wrongly deposed or even deposed in such a manner that they can be rightly Restored.

Are there men that you just will not work with?

Well. And find out their story discern the best way to help them. And not everyone goes to the pastor. Or would we necessarily say they should be restored to vocational ministry? That's why we were very careful to make sure that people understand that restoration has to be.

We consider it a success at each level. If we can find someone who's alienated from God. Then giving them back into a relationship with Christ and then to the church and we then it's appropriate. And we're very careful.

Vocational ministry. Return could be an order and not everybody goes back into the vocational ministry. Nor should I.

Was just gonna say Reverend buzz had a question.

I'm hearing some of the language you're using restoration and being hurt and you know restored to God Church or vocation but There are a number of situations where there perhaps was no hurt involved or I mean.

Leaving a church can hurt simply because you lose your your parsonage and everything else, you know, but what about situations where sometimes pastors are forced to leave simply because Through their study of the word or whatever.

They come into denominate differences of doctrine with their denomination Mm-hmm, or or a particular congregation and they simply vote him out because he believes a certain thing.

You.

You're not exactly restoring a person like that because he hasn't really technically fallen.

Right. Yeah, and so that would fall more into the category of renewal or just encouragement and even there the pastor residence program can be helpful because in any of those situations and we've dealt with some brothers and sisters who Had to make the move or were forced to make the move from denominations that no longer supported a more biblical and.

So there's always grief and loss and pain and so, you know. Maybe in some of those cases the PIR program wouldn't necessarily be a good fit. We're always ready to be an encouragement and provide those other resources to whatever level they need.

Well, we have to go to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Roy Yankee about restoring deposed pastors our Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris.

Arn.

Zen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA and. Obviously with a subject like this. There are many people who may prefer to remain anonymous and we will honor that request If that is your desire.

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So we would love to hear your feedback on that. We are speaking with Roy Yankee the executive director of PIR ministries which stands for pastor and residents ministries and We are discussing restoring deposed pastors.

We do have an anonymous listener in Wyoming who says I was a youth pastor a single man in the early.

1990s.

Who had a license but never ordained. I was not converted at the time I was living in sexual sin not with anyone in the church and Because I was living a double life I chose to resign on my own without being confronted, etc.

I also voluntarily surrendered my license. I was eventually converted and have been living free of sexual sin for over four years. I am permanently disqualified for past. Am I permanently disqualified for pastoral ministry.

I Have a passion for evangelism and there is evidence of a call on my life apparent to others who do not know my past, etc, I Was not a senior pastor or ordained but I want to be obedient to Scripture, etc.

This was over 25 years ago. I was just curious. Well, it's Interesting that if it was over 25 years ago, I'm not sure why The listener said he's only been free of sexual sin for four years. So but the issue is that that is obviously a question that's going to get different answers.

Even from people in the same denomination and even in the same congregation. Even if they have very conservative views of restoration, but if you want to comment Roy.

Yeah, no more of that story. Because you know, they're a lot in regard to someone the surface when someone's in that kind of a situation and If the story of holds or rings true then, you know, you'd want to Walk them through.

And we're a firm believer that every denomination of group should should do due diligence in its process of Verifying the call on somebody's life. Any ordination process that they would have it would look into all of those situations.

So we're we're very supportive of that and in conjunction with that we would often work with a denominational group Coming alongside them in the restoration process And supporting what they have already Put in place or what they decide a course of action should be.

So we we would not always. We certainly would not impose on the side of those denominations.

And of course, I I think I may have figured out the disparity of Years here. I think it may have been while he was a youth pastor the sexual sin occurred 25 years ago and perhaps okay, and perhaps he was just recently converted and And free from sexual sin for over four years.

I think that perhaps is where we got the different numbers there.

Right, but.

Yeah, and a lot of it obviously has to do with if sins were taking place before a person was even a born-again believer and and that kind of a thing. But but.

One thing that wasn't quite answered earlier and you just said the word again a few times. You keep saying denominational. What is your denominational span? I mean, you know. What kind of churches do you serve.

Well the staff members We all represent different groups. We represent peace Presbyterian Church in America, we are evangelical Church converge other than Baptist Nazarene and even independent so We are cross denominational.

Okay, we will work with any group that has a heart to see and wants to see their pastors.

And if you could provide us with some Examples of men whom you have helped to restore and if you need to keep them anonymous, that's fine as well. Do you have any anecdotes that you could provide?

Well, I mean we do there's a story for for every situation and a couple of them that come to mind. There's a young fellow who was a single Staff member pastor out in the West who the church decided to plant a church in their community and They asked him to take that position of the church planter the lead pastor in it and It didn't thrive it failed and he was quite discouraged.

And he didn't do anything wrong. There was no sin involved or anything like that and just didn't really know what to do. So he reached out to us and We were able to he eventually and friends set up the refuge church for him in that area.

He went through the pastor residence program there. That's one of those unique cases where at the end of that the church decided to keep him on as a pastor on staff. Although it is not a permanent role.

It was a temporary permanent role. Because he's looking to move into more of an administrative or a simulation kind of and so. Here's here's a young guy Basically on his own. Um move back in and when he got into that church that next sure man again set up a pretty amazing What God actually done even in terms of in their best to work with him restore him on their own and they reached out to us.

He has not stepped back into a pastoral role. But he again somebody who was very gifted to bring him back into it.

Do you know of or have you I should say worked with situations? where you believe that the church was at fault in deposing or firing or exiting their pastor and where you were able to work with both parties and and actually bring this this Pastor or minister back to his pastoral role at this church and to say yes.

Unfortunately, I can't. We have worked with pastors where? and churches where the the church was clearly Their expectations were really out of line and their their treatment of the pastor was unkind and ungracious and We tried to speak into that situation to bring some kind of a resolution.

But eventually the pastor just too difficult of a situation for him. So he really needed to step away. So I Would like to say we've been able to work on both sides back together, but in our experience at least from what I know.

We have Harrison and mechanics bird, Pennsylvania who wants to know. How many on the average evangelical pastors Wrongly lose their jobs. Every year if you are aware of this statistic. Fifteen to eighteen hundred.

Leave the ministry every month every month. And is that spanning all denominations even liberal mainline ones or?

Yeah. It could be the just someone decides they're not going to do it anymore to You know wrongly as there's a wrongly terminated. It's great. We do know by experience and the people that we deal with that there are a fair number of those things that occur and.

The when a church is at fault obviously when you are working with The pastor or the minister who has been fired or deposed or Exited as you prefer to call it. You're obviously probably most often not going to have cooperation on both sides.

So when you Has as a main when you have as a main emphasis working with the local church Obviously that can't always be a factor with that specific local church. I'm assuming right.

We would hope that eventually they move back into a more pastors, but you know books have been real clergy killers. That's been out for a number of years. It talks about toxic churches. We live in a broken world and it would be nice to assume that that everybody who is a church member or a tender.

Or even a confessing believer Is going to be nice and do things the right way, but we don't and so that's why our ministry.

Yeah, I'm one of the sad tragedies is that I know Some men who were fired from their pastoral positions who are enormously Gifted men who committed no sin. Obviously, we're all sinners, but I'm speaking of a sin worthy of being Deposed and it was only because church didn't grow fast enough the there's a a craze over Church growth rapid church growth the seeker sensitive movement everybody wants to be in a megachurch or or lead a megachurch and It seems that a lot of church boards are more interested in the numbers That come into the building than they are over being taught properly and shepherded properly and Then very often you have a church filled with goats because of that not sheep.

Yeah, the challenges are huge. They are culture. Those kinds of situations are repeated weekly and so. The the expectations are on both sides and we would have to say that many times we have to deal with pastor.

Not mechanisms need to have some realignment, but. The culture in which we live in we all know numbers play a huge part and.

There are a lot of Christians myself being one who gets sickened by the Very prominent and prevalent and frequent stories we hear about televangelists who fall into scandalous sins and Then they very quickly get restored to their positions and There is a I think an unbiblical notion.

That.

Basically teaches that all sin is. Exactly alike. All sin is just like any other sin now. The only the only way that I agree with that is that all sin will lead us to hell without the covering of Christ's blood.

No matter how trivial we think a sin is It will send us to hell, but there is obviously a difference between a pastor Pigging out at the church picnic and a pastor molesting a child. Those are two very different things and that call for two very different actions.

But do you agree with my frustration or do you have. Do you share my frustration over the. The some of these mega churches where we're televangelists and others are very quickly restored back to their positions of authority.

May have committed Require time and it's a long if there is a restoration to any kind of a vocational ministry. And we never assume that we hope we know that that's going to take a long time. It's a long journey back.

And there's a lot of upfront work that has to happen before we ever get to the place of doing a PIR Program or anything similar to that restoring somebody to a vocational position. So. Yeah, I think that needs to be and we would be very conscious of encouraging a long process where genuine repentance can be verified where trustworthiness can be rebuilt sense of reputation and of being about reproach for someone so it's a long haul and It.

Unfortunately, there are instances where quickly or functions are made and and it's not a good.

Now, wouldn't you say that there are perhaps? many occasions where Restoration of a fallen pastor doesn't necessarily mean restoration to the pastor. It could be restoration to membership in a church miss restoration to a right Relationship with God and on and on there.

Ministry, it certainly may not look the same. As it did in the past. The shape of the calling may be entirely different and may be more appropriate. For you know the situation and for the person. You know in In my own story returning to the pastorate Was not going to be a healthy place for me or for anyone else.

And so for me to become a part of passion. Residence ministry. The shape of the calling that God had on my life for as long as it was there needed to look different than it did before.

Well, you you you are actually living proof that when a man who goes through the humiliating experience of being Deposed might even be initially Excommunicated depending upon the severity of what this occurred.

That when he is in the process of being drawn back to repentance and so on He need not think this is the end of his life. Or the end of his usefulness. There are other roles in the church and in life that he can use his gifts other than Standing behind a pulpit and preaching and shepherding a flock, correct.

Table from somebody who's just God it's not that his. He is not abandoning you and his grace. You will be amazed at what he can do on the other side. Absolutely and.

What obviously Compounds with the tragedy of this is when you have a pastor who has a wife and children that he needs to support. Obviously there must be some kind of Godly counsel given to the spouses very often.

I'm assuming that. That's very often there that there are marriages between a former pastor and his wife that head towards a divorce court and. So so do you. I'm assuming that you have Counseling that goes beyond the man himself who has been deposed or exit.

Than the pastor himself. He you find. We find that. Not only have they lost their pastor, but now they're in the position of having to defend their husband. Yeah, and so they're when they meet with the support team.

It is a couple of weeks with them. So she has she or he has the opportunity to. You know work to their own.

Well, I'd like you to take the final minute of the program to basically unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most etched.

What you most want etched on their hearts and minds? I think the statement that Chuck made when he started this ministry Pastor who should be in ministry is a terrible. We want to provide a way for those Ministry to be restored and healed and brought back into that place.

The other thing is that this is a tremendous ministry an opportunity to change the reputation. Sometimes has the reputation of shooting its wounded. This is an opportunity for us to tell the world that No, we don't do that.