John Loftus

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line at our normal time today didn't have to move anything and That means the phones are open to you at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 actually not sure what the relationship between our being

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At a regular time is and the phones being open for you, but they are both true statements There may not be any logical or rational connection between the two

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But it is a true statement 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone

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Number got a lot of response From the last dividing line where we discussed the

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Goings -on of the secular humanists Who seemingly are very much wedded to the homosexuals?

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Who all want super rights and want to tell everybody else this free speech things bad?

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Bad if you like free speech, but hey, you know what? There have been lots of Christians who have wanted to get rid of free speech, too in fact

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Wasn't it a certain person in our chat channel who will remain nameless Because he is probably in hiding in a lead bunkers place already who voiced his objection to The fact that the buses that were happily dragging children out of the

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Texas compound a couple months ago were borrowed from local Baptist churches and He said something along the lines of what goes around comes around and of course all those children are being returned now and You know, there are more lots folks are more than happy to chip in Not seemingly realizing that you do have to stand back once while ago.

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Um Am I being consistent here? What I want, you know, but I want the liberals of course liberals got rid of their buses a long

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But but if the Liberals had buses What I want them utilizing those to pick up my kids once the government decides that my

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Teaching my children to believe in God is a hate crime and as I'm abusing them and and so on and so forth

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Lot of stuff to think about along those lines and so we got a lot of responses to that particular program and Afterwards I was directed to the

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Ezra Levant videos and I saw one where he was getting just a little bit on the ornery side no two ways about that But I had to admit his opening statement

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That poor bureaucrat lady sitting across from him and He just I'd like to read a statement and then he starts into this thing and you can just see her, you know at first she's taking notes and then she's just sitting there and Then she folds her hands and it's like her hands.

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She's folding like this It just it was it was almost comical because he was

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I mean he was just wow Okay, he would the he minute they may not be able to have real guns up there but he was using the verbal version no two ways about it and then

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Later I watched the rest of the of the interaction interaction She's a thug and you're a thug and oh, it was it was quite interesting

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But anyway, at least he had the opportunity to say those things it is scary to think about how much of that is all done in private and No one ever gets to hear these screams the silent screams of those who don't

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Quite have as broad an audience as he did and what he was able to do But anyway That's that's the last program and this program going to a completely different direction unless the massive number of callers calling in right now

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Direct us elsewhere, which actually there there isn't anyone calling in right now, but and I wouldn't know because I Can't see the phones today

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And I'm not really sure why our internet disappeared within five minutes after the end of the dividing line last time and That was because our modem fried

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And I don't know was a Canadian conspiracy. I was is it a Canadian modem is the question

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Yeah, that's it's Canadian modem and therefore it received a special instruction to fry itself

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In service of the Human Rights Commission of and so it was gone and so anyway

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But we for some reason I can't see the phones anymore So if you call only rich will be able to see you well

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I can see him I'm just trying to figure out if I can remember how to use this it's been a while hasn't it?

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Yeah, that nice computer interface is cool. So if you call up and end up, you know on hold today

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We'll be the day at art simple calls, right? Do you remember route?

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1991 as I recall, I think it was it was it was 1991 because that's I had when I had the debate with him but sometime within Two years after that.

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Do you remember his phone calls, which I still have on tape? He remember we used to we used to have a phone the phone lines, of course two six six two

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LDS two six six two JWS and two six six two RCC This was pre -computer time guys.

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This is pre -internet And we had these phone numbers you could call and you could listen to a message that we would record for Mormons for Jehovah's Witnesses and for Roman Catholics and I Have forgotten the specific content of the message, but I think

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It was about our debate in Toledo. I don't don't recall And art simple called that thing and he left messages remember and He didn't realize there was only a certain amount of time that you could have and so it hang up on him and he just got angrier and And I still got remember those teeny tiny little tapes a little, you know cassettes are about yay big you just a little mini

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Recorders, that's what it used. Remember those Radio Shack phone lines phone message machines we used

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A member when we could even tell how many people called because Alan Willis there's this piece of wood just it was like a tube out two by four piece of wood and Screwed on to it were these little mechanical

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Counter thingies that he rigged up so that every time that thing clicked on it clicked over one

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We could we could I remember in my apartment at night. You'd hear click click and you'd hear

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And you could tell somebody was listening to one of those those those recorded messages and And then then we went to what was that some super voice?

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Is that what it was called a boy super voice Christian information system. That's right That's CIS off with thank you for calling the

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Christian information. That's a mobile for the mega minister. That's right That's right. The Christian information system you get and that was on a computer and That was one of the first things first, you know digital recording stuff.

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We had many mailboxes in there and yep We could we could record as long as we wanted on the message

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But you had like 90 seconds to leave your message. All right, if you were calling in. Oh, yeah, that's right.

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Boy that Like I said all pre internet stuff. And so today would be the day that our simple would call and then you'd have trouble remembering how to use the manual phone system and And you'd start an entire

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Blog war or something right there and it's it's Yeah, algo is reminding us here.

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I'll go the the man of all memory The Mormons called and left a message admitted. They broke your windows.

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That's true, too we had young Mormon guys, we were out the LDS Easter pageant passing out tracks and We remember what the guy remember the guys look like because we had had a rather heated conversation with him and They decided that night that they didn't like we were doing and so they located where we were and they

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Visited our Front windows with the various pieces of masonry and rock and so on so forth smashed them all out

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Yeah, and left messages laughing about it figuring no one could ever track him down and back then basically you couldn't

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There wasn't much you could do about it actually, but it was it was interesting But a little this little trip down memory lane

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Given to you because our phones are working You can call the number But I just can't see you until rich tells me about it, and if you get hung up on please do not become incensed and angry and So on so forth anyway a completely different direction today on the program having wasted the first ten minutes or so And watching rich checking that there are dial

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I Saw a picture recently of Dan Barker, and he was doing a debate with Todd Friel and I'm gonna have to admit this openly the kind folks away the master gave me a

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DVD of the Todd Friel Dan Barker debate And I was staying in front of the church in Atlanta and then somebody else wanted me to sign something as I recall so I put the

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DVD down and I hope some of the church in Atlanta is getting good use out of it because it didn't end up in my bag, so anyway on the

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DVD cover was a picture of Dan Barker and It's just a reminder that it's been a long time

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Since I was in studio with Dan Barker and his significant other on the

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Tom Likas show now Tom Likas few of you know who he was is

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He's still out there. I think still acting like he's 30, but he's probably 60 and Now he's in his 50s

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Yeah, maybe more. I don't know. I don't know how Tom I'll time is now, but I was on his program as a young man over and over I think

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I was on like is his program at least a dozen times. That's where I debated Brian Lynch the atheist from the

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American atheists and That I was in studio with with Dan Barker and I saw a picture of him

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And that's what I realized wow it's been a long time because I wouldn't have recognized him

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He probably wouldn't recognize me either, but we did correspond went back and forth so dealing with atheism is not something that is new to me

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That was something that I did actually a lot of when I was much younger before anybody at all had ever heard about us or anything else and So It's not that I don't deal with these issues, or I don't have an interest in these issues it's just you know you you have a certain focus and So I was pointed a little while ago to a video that Is on YouTube From a an atheist that wasn't around back in those days at least not that I knew of But has sort of made a little bit of a name for himself by the name of John Loftus and Every once in a while folks come and channel drop a

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URL to one of his articles And and I'll take a look at it and go well you know

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It's it's a little bit better than Dennis McKinsey Just just a little bit not a whole lot, but Dennis McKinsey of biblical errancy

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That was boy talk about the 1980s there I I was a subscriber to biblical errancy and It was put out on a look like an

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IBM Selectric run on one of those What was the stuff that would come out blue? They used it a lot in churches to to run off your

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What was that a mimeograph mimeograph? That's what you'd have to sit there and hand crank those things man am

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I dating myself, but it looked like it came out a mimeograph machine and I Think it was six pages long and you get it each month

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And it was all these alleged contradictions in the Bible and so many of them were so bad

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But I remember having lengthy interaction with with Dennis McKinsey on On that stuff, but so now we've got

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John Loftus and the internet makes it Very so very very easy to continue these things anyway.

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I was directed to this this video titled bizarre beliefs where is

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Jesus now and someone who had already seen it had

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Informed me that this was John Loftus is a Discussion of problems with the doctrine of the

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Trinity. Ah, yes. Okay. Here we go So here you've got an atheist talking about the

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Trinity now here's gonna be a little bit of a challenge because You know, obviously from my perspective this sort of helps you to find out does this person have a clue what they're talking about Do they really understand the faith that they are allegedly debunking or are they just as confused as Anybody else might be and so I started listening to this

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And so I thought what we do today and we do have one caller and so I'll I'll sort of like go with this to The break and then we'll see where we are there and see what the interest level is

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Though that's sort of hard actually to determine that in this format. But anyway And we'll listen to what

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John Loftus has to say and we'll stop and start it I'm playing I did not record this to mp3, which would have been probably a little wiser

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But just for time Concerns, I'm taking this straight off of YouTube. So It'll be hard for me to roll back and do stuff like that.

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But we'll we'll do our best. So here's here's John Loftus It's my contention that not many

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Christians think deeply about the faith that they're committed to Uh, I'd agree at least depending on who we're calling

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Christians here I mean, obviously, I think there's a whole bunch of folks who aren't

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Christians who claim to be Christians But even at that in Western society, yeah, there's there's a there's a latent

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Not even late in a very clearly expressed anti -intellectualism and the idea of contemplation upon the things of for example the

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Trinity Not overly common, unfortunately, so, uh, we're one for one.

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I'd generally agree But when they use the word God, I want you to picture this now this of course is a video and this is a painting of a completely anthropomorphized view of God where you have

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God the Father on one side and Jesus holding a cross on the other side and they dove coming down and you've got the little angels floating around in clouds and If that's what

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I just want you to think of then Wow, we're not starting at a real high level here of meaningful understanding this is this is sort of a medieval kind of very anthropomorphized

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Version of the Trinity here are three persons, but one God each person is

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Not to be considered God only the whole Excuse me

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Each person possesses fully the nature of God and hence is properly and appropriately identified as God in that sense

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I Just have a strong feeling to the farther we get into this We're gonna discover that our atheist friend here and I didn't take time to go back

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So could someone refresh my memory doesn't he claim to be a former Christian wasn't he like Church of Christ or something?

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Or am I confusing him with somebody else? I'll let you know the people in channel. Tell me a little bit later on but Right from the start not exactly accurate understanding here so far some

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Christians believe that all three persons Have existed from eternity

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No, that would actually be all Christians believe that sort of like Definitional of the

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Doctrine of the Trinity, but of course He probably would like to expand the definition out to include all cults isms and everything else because it greatly

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Expands your your target range and your ability especially for atheists to mock and deride

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Isn't that incredible? from all eternity Yeah Isn't that incredible?

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Hmm what's incredible about it? They never began to exist Occam's Razor would tell us that it's unbelievable that there should be three persons who have always existed when

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Even one person that has always existed is incredible Okay, I suppose if you're actually going to be

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So silly as to assume that we're talking about a human person Yeah, that would make sense, but of course if we're gonna be even semi -serious here there is

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The issue and I'm being told in channel that this man was trained by William Lane Craig Is that what the algo is saying that and I'm like, yeah, what

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I would like to see Documentation of that can't blame

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William Lane Craig for somebody going nuts of burgers, but anyway Obviously the entire discussion of the nature of God God self -createdness complete differentiation between The use of person in reference to the

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Godhead and the use of person in regards to a created being and all the rest that stuff Doesn't seem to be entering into the conversation here

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Some Christians will believe that God the father eternally created the son and the

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Holy Spirit is No, I don't Don't think so eternally created even the

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Jehovah's Witnesses Who tried to make the son a created creature would not say eternally created.

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What does that mean? Is is he talk is he confusing the relationship of father and son the eternal begettal?

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The origination of the Sun in that sense not the creation But the relationship personally between the father and the son is that what he's talking about Is he talking about the relationship the subsistence is

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I it's hard to say because obviously it hasn't begun with any kind of Definitions or anything like that and we're still staring at a silly picture from the

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Middle Ages in the video They've always existed but the father himself

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Created them eternally there Created them as divine parts of the

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Trinity but again from any historical or creedals perspective

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Created them a part of the Trinity what? There seems to be massive confusion here.

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I'm now being told that he was a Church of Christ pastor That was in the back of my mind somewhere But again,

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I Certain about that but lots confusion here so far and We're already a fifth of the way through the video.

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They've always existed now. Isn't isn't that? believable Let's consider the second person of the

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Trinity otherwise known as the Logos I think you mean the

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Sun Who is identified by John with the term Logos? but we know really really cheesy picture of the

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Catholic Jesus guy And of course, it's actually a blasphemous picture.

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He's using here with a cigarette and so on so forth So, you know, it's really meant to communicate to the serious

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Christian Christians say he took on flesh. There is this some

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Christians say you mean like the Apostle Sean in John 114 possibly maybe being this new metaphysical being which had never existed before Jesus was 100 %

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God and 100 % man Incoherence sets in at this point because God is considered to be

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Omnipresent and yet Jesus was not God is considered to be uncreated and Jesus was not

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Okay Incoherence, which in this case is the equivalent of John Loftus's ignorance.

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So if he's ignorant of something Doesn't take the time to seriously study it or understand it then it becomes

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Incoherent which sort of is what happens when you in essence make yourself the standard of all things but be it as it may what exactly is incoherent about the uncreated and Eternal God who is not limited by time and space creating time and space and then entering into Voluntarily his own creation so as to accomplish a specific purpose that he beforehand had determined to Undertake and to accomplish the incoherence of this again is exactly what?

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Possibly well Jesus created. Well, if you mean the physical Body of Christ the human nature.

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That's right. It's not eternal but no one said it was and so there's clearly a

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Confusion on Loftus's part regarding the nature of the hypostatic Union issues along those lines and That sort of speaks for itself

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God is considered not to have not to be tempted But Jesus was tempted

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Again, throwing out the standard. Well Jesus isn't identical to the father argumentation.

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I just saw a quotation and channel From the supposed to be from from John Loftus's blog

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I'm assuming that it is obviously I majored under William Lane Craig and earned a THM degree at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1985 well that is really sad it's really sad how on earth could you graduate from Trinity and And Be producing this mush of ignorance in regards to what you should understand that would seem possibly to indicate the possibility of not just gross ignorance, but dishonesty

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Which atheists don't have a problem with this one of the reasons why when I comment on atheism on YouTube I can't even have comments activated because atheists cannot in any way shape or form show themselves to be

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Controlled enough to not post profanity and so on so on so forth So I just don't don't even bother with those folks.

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So they don't have an atheist has no reason to be honest Atheist has no reason in mocking

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Christianity to do so accurately And so I am certain that anyone who graduates the

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THM from Trinity Would be an individual who would have had every possible opportunity

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To Have studied the doctrine of Trinity and to understand it

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Micah just posted in channel under favorite books anything by Bart Ehrman Well that doesn't overly surprise me too much

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So anyway Yeah, that's that's very very interesting. That's that would be the case.

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Okay, so we go back to the thing We lost our caller. Sorry about that. Like I said, we were gonna go to the break and then oh, we're back.

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Oh Yeah Well, he's probably listening. Hopefully he'll call back. He wants to call back here that errs just so fascinated with John Loftus that Anyway, okay.

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Let's continue on here Well, anyway this second person of Trinity this log us now became embodied as a new being a new metaphysical being

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He conducted his ministry He died and he was raised from the dead so the

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Christians believe then he ascended into heaven and They Claim he will return again and then in heaven

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He will have all of the believers with him forever Now consider this second person of the

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Trinity this law Ross That's a interesting description and again

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The psychology of atheism is rather fascinating and I understand why there are folks who spend a great deal of time

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Sort of delving into it. I Personally, that's not something the Lord has caused me to be overly fascinated with but it is an interesting

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Interesting study and you do have to sort of sit back and go what what kind of person?

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Could pursue a degree as as he claims that he did and I'm not questioning that at all and Then give that kind of a bland description, you know

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What goes through a person's mind? When they have made a confession of faith when they have at least outwardly tried to live in light of this stuff and then they can give that kind of a a recitation,

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I Don't know. I don't understand it. It's it's very difficult for me to even begin to comprehend, but it is somewhat interesting to examine

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He was part of the Trinity from all eternity He the Sun was yes became incarnated a new being if you mean a

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Taking on a human flesh Taking on human flesh human nature. Yeah, that doesn't make him a new being

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It does indicate a new experience shall we say

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Certainly a new status in that sense But this does not mean some new being

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The the Sun has eternally existed as the Sun and remains personally the

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Sun but takes on human nature and so if by that you mean this is something that had not happened before Well, that would be true.

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But new being makes no sense whatsoever. That's Again, completely throwing out the the standard use of terms

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And then turning around and saying ah since I'm using terms differently your use of terms is wrong That's not an overly valid argument as a hundred percent man percent

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God and Then in heaven in heaven, what's the what's the problem in heaven?

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Well What kind of being is this Logos now in heaven Christians believe that Jesus was one in the same with the second person of the

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Trinity. There was a metaphysical union What I Think what might you know trying to be generous?

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What's trying to be said there is that the the Sun is the one who became incarnate?

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That sound like the Sun and Logos are separate and somehow get together or Jesus is separate somehow gets together

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Logos or something like that the the level of confusion on loftus this part is is truly amazing and we will continue listening to that confusion of a rather well -known atheist after we take our break and Certainly your phone calls are welcome at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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We'll be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

30:30

Following Jesus More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together

30:46

They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many

30:54

Evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing

31:00

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

31:07

Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the

31:15

Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine

31:25

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

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They cannot be ignored Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen org

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The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us

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James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters

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It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a

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Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the

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Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommend it

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

32:29

Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same -sex

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Controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject

32:44

Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner

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They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy

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Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen dot org

33:42

Everybody's posting all sorts of URLs and channel One of one of them,

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I hope I don't lose this they better open another tab here in case I lose it That'd be the first thing it would go go wrong.

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Let's see. Oh, it opens a different browser. Anyways, never mind Oh, yeah, I actually saw this

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This one was posted in channel once Bart Ehrman is my hero. This is from John Loftus after reading a few of his books with more on the back burner

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I just want to declare that dr. Ehrman is my hero No one else has written so prolifically in arguing against Christianity, you know,

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I think Armin Ehrman Armin I think Ehrman would be a little uncomfortable with that particular statement

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He publishes scholarly works with Oxford University Press, which automatically makes it true.

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It's just by nature That's that's how it is And popular ones through HarperCollins which

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Bypassing the normal atheist publishers. Yeah, HarperCollins never puts anything out like that. He understands that which he argues against and does so respectful respectively well if the

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Proper way of doing things is to understand What he's arguing against that's what we're listening to right now does mr.

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Loftus himself Understand what he's arguing against let's continue on with his discussion of where is

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Jesus now And as such the question arises Where is the human

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Jesus now? The historical answer the

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Christian faith that has always been that Jesus Christ is the

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God man and therefore that human nature which was taken on by the second person of the

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Blessed Trinity and what's called the Incarnation described in John 114 and Philippians chapter 2 is in fact the very promise of our own resurrection because he has been resurrected and therefore is described as Seated at the right hand of the

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Father in heaven Interceding for those who are his according to the book of Hebrews unlike cults like Jehovah's Witnesses who

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Either speculate that his body is on display somewhere in the universe as a testimony to Jehovah's love

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Or that he dissolved it into gases Whatever however in the world you do that those are neither none of those are

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Christian beliefs Well if the Logos discards the human

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Jesus That seems uncaring it seems

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Wasteful and It doesn't and not environmentally friendly either or the human side of Jesus for being sinless so Christians can't take that option that the

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Logos went back to being the Trinity and this human side of him was discarded

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Another option is the Logos and Jesus are now separated in heaven

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That is now we have the Trinity back to normal and then we have

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Jesus the human who was Used by the Logos on earth, and he's in now

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Incoherent sets In at this point because it goes against the historic creeds that the

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Logos and Jesus Another incoherent sets in because that goes against the historic creeds that might indicate that you don't quite understand

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What they were talking about maybe possibly? yeah, I think so yes, we're one being a third option

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Is that the Logos now lives forever? embodied That's why this picture seems to indicate exactly what the

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Christian must believe About this Trinity now in heaven So the reason that the father in this

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Silly picture also has a physical body and a very long beard Would be exactly what well we're not really told because That doesn't follow

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At all there is an embodied God One -third of this

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God is embodied in Jesus One -third well, you know those same creeds

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That you were supposed to have had a decent understanding of at least 23 years ago

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When you graduated from Trinity That so those same creeds sort of talk about the fact that the got the being of God the essence of God is

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Indivisible and therefore it's not one -third of God that is possessed

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By the divine persons and stuff like that But again, I knew a lot of folks who fell asleep during systematic theology, too

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I I didn't but I was pretty unusual in seminary, too Do you see how strange and implausible this is to an outsider?

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What happened to the human Jesus where is the human Jesus now

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It just seems so wildly Implausible and No sense has been made yet of the incarnation that it cannot be believed by thinking human beings

39:28

I challenge you to Consider the evidence. I challenge you to recognize bizarre beliefs

39:35

When you hear them Thank you Well, thank you very much.

39:42

Mr. Loftus Obviously what this translates into is

39:47

I challenge you to Misunderstand things as badly as I do and if you then do

39:55

Misunderstand them as badly as I do then you should reject them Which again is a very?

40:02

compelling compelling argument there So I did see another one of his

40:08

I don't see it listed here I had to chuckle because it said do

40:15

I look like Satan and The you know how YouTube just takes these

40:23

Random freeze frames from your video and puts them up there and you get three of them to choose from in case you get like a really bad one that it chooses for you and So Here's the title do

40:37

I look like Satan and it's one of those really bad freeze frames Where the only possible answer is well, yes, actually actually you do

40:47

That's that's the problem there, but anyhow We've got some phone calls.

40:53

We'll get to here. I keep asking for a certain URL and channel. I can't seem to get it But I was going to possibly

41:00

Play a little bit of that too, but since I can't seem to get the URL. I will just hope the

41:07

Folks on the phones will help us and so you're gonna have to take care of this on your end mr.

41:13

Pierce, but let's let's talk with Dale in Indiana. Hi Dale Hello Good Your show on Tuesday it was good

41:25

Kind of a disturbing topic, but interesting my question for you is do you think would you limit?

41:33

Do you see that thing there should be any limits to free speech at all and I'm Who comes to mind is people like Fred Phelps, you know picketing

41:42

Soldiers funerals and things like that now Fred Phelps has every right in the world to be a complete and total idiot

41:47

Which is exactly what he is. Yes There's no question about it and in a in a civilized society that kind of outrageous

41:55

Cultic hateful behavior would be censured by everyone which in general it is even now

42:01

But if there was a if there was still anything left what's called morality in the culture

42:07

That would have then some weight behind it Then that would function as some sort of curb, but the fact the matter is once you start placing limitations outside of the famous Screaming fire in a crowded theater context once you start

42:29

Giving people the rights to say this is acceptable speech and this is not

42:36

Well, well the problem is you're you're placing that in the hands of a government which is filled with sinners and Eventually, you know unless unless it should happen that God would so bless that a nation would experience such an outpouring of his grace that That the majority of the people in that entire country

43:01

Have truly regenerate natures and our servants of Christ and so on so forth The fact the matter is that government while we're told in Romans 13 that it's there to you know

43:11

Protect the good and punish the evil many times those governments stop doing those things.

43:17

Oh sure and so You know it's it's real easy to sit back and say hey, you know

43:24

The people I don't like shouldn't be allowed to express their viewpoints Oh, yeah, but as soon as you give that authority to somebody else realize it can be used against you as well

43:33

And that's something that I'm afraid a lot of Christians. Don't really think about no Understand that the thing that I Fear about felt the fact that I don't know if you know much about his theology or look on his website or anything

43:47

But he really is a very lousy Twisted caricature of what you believe.

43:53

I mean, he's he claims to be a Calvinist, but I know he's not a Calvinist The man has stood right in front of me.

44:01

We met in Salt Lake City and I Approached him his people had shown up While we were trying to pass out tracks and I got his attention long enough to talk to him by mentioning that I had just returned from debating

44:19

Barry Lynn on the subject of homosexuality in New York and So he was like, oh really and he heard that I was a

44:27

Baptist and so I actually Had have had you know, just a few seconds before the cultism kicked in and Then when

44:37

I said to him Don't you believe? Though shouldn't shouldn't we believe that we are to speak the truth in love, which of course is a quotation from the

44:48

Bible and as soon as I said that he started yelling you're a

44:54

God hater is very clearly a a signal to his Group is his cult there to get between him and a bad person and the only thing

45:06

I did was quoted scripture and his reaction to scripture was was to start screaming and people got in between me and started screaming me down and and it was classic cultic mentality

45:17

You know Manson style cultic mentality to be honest with you. It's pretty pretty amazing well,

45:23

I'm sure you would agree, but I think though that the problem is a lot of people are going to Lump you and others along with him.

45:31

Nothing whatsoever that can be done about that. Anyone anyone who is is So unconcerned about truth to do that There's absolutely possibly nothing to be done about that You can differentiate yourself as clearly as possible if the if people want to be confused they can be confused there

45:49

You can't stop them doing that. It's similar to why we stopped passing out tracks up in Salt Lake City Because we recognize that though it's not fair the people in Salt Lake City likewise would not be differentiating between Ourselves and These these types of folks and so I just as as sad as that is

46:19

You know We recognize that that's the reality and that was one of the reasons that coupled with the fact that The presence of the street preachers turn the atmosphere into pure poison

46:30

Up there was why we we stopped doing we had been doing for 18 years Yeah, all right, thank you.

46:37

Okay. Thanks calm. God bless. Let's go to David in Boise.

46:43

Hi David Done good Mr. Loftus pretty regularly here

46:53

Did you actually get a chance to read that blog article where I sort of went back and forth a little bit?

46:59

I just saw some of the comments in the comment section. I didn't have time to really look very closely at it, but It's interesting that he what does he do?

47:09

Does he have a regular job? It's a good question because How often it gets updated

47:15

I often wonder you know what he does all day because well spend you know Really like the amount of time responding to someone's

47:23

Statement and I mean you can tell he spends hours working on it. Yeah, just like all right Yeah, well, you know when

47:31

I was younger I did similar things and it's it certainly provide me some great opportunities of doing research and Stuff but the older you get you just sort of wonder

47:40

He doesn't look he looks like he's around my age at least and so you just sort of wonder

47:46

I know some people who are just independently wealthy and then can sit around do that type of thing all day and If I wanted to spend all day on the internet with com boxes or a web board or whatever it'd be very easy to do

47:57

I can imagine What a web board on our website would look like Yes, that would be fascinating A while back when well he was campaigning for his latest book

48:12

Which is sort of a rewrite of his first book, but it's apparently geared at college level students

48:18

Which I think is pretty and she sort of like trying to you know market But like he had a post of it is like, you know,

48:24

I'd really love to accept donations He's like, I know us free thinkers don't really get into the whole giving

48:31

I Would just give you 25 bucks just because I feel bad, you know but anyway, my question was concerning we were talking about the relationship of just some of the

48:45

Greek philosophy with the doctrine of the Trinity and I've heard a lot of your discussions with one of the

48:52

Mormon radio show You guys are talking about Justin Martyr and And but anyway, we sort of went down that path a little bit and I think what he's doing is sort of a classic

49:03

Fallacy, and I'm hoping you can confirm this. He's basically looking up log off This this isn't

49:09

John Loftus. Now. This is Harry McCall one of his pals. He's also a former minister, but He's looking up log off in a

49:18

Greek English lexicon of the New Testament comparing it with Classical Oxford Greek lexicon and he's saying you'll notice how the philosophical use in the classical period as used by Plato Finds its way into the

49:32

Christian thought by comparing these two lexicons fact is that in the

49:37

New Testament Greek lexicon the word log off as used in the gospel of John is listed as the third and final way use of the word which means it was late in its usage by the

49:47

New Testament authors and so he Goes on and on basically it to me. It seems like he's just only relying on this lexical definition of a word to make his argument and I know

50:00

Da Carson's book. What is it exegetical fallacies? That's like number one It's like do not just look up the word in the lexicon and assume that you can go from there

50:10

So I was hoping you might have more to add to that or well The the utilization of the argument that I just played was was fairly lame

50:19

Because it did not show any familiarity with with what's actually being taught in regards to who the log off says or what the log is as far as as Just saying well, this is just plainly just stolen straight from Plato Gospel of the gospel of John is not written in a vacuum and There have been

50:40

I don't know how many books written Comments made in scholarly articles and everything else regarding how much

50:49

John wants his readers to import from what they understand of the the normal utilization of term logos and what he then is saying about the logos now, by the way, the term logos has a

51:06

Massive semantic domain it can mean something as simple as thing Or a matter or things like this it is very very wide in its usage and so You have to be very careful at that point because it is so very wide in its usage to assume

51:25

One particular definition and force that upon all all texts Anyone the only people who do that are people who don't actually read the language and hence have never

51:35

Encountered logos in other contexts where it means things as a simple matter or something like that There's no question that the connection

51:47

That John would want to be made is that the logos in Greek philosophy is an ordering principle

51:53

But where he is is shocking and and completely goes against any type of Greek philosophical position is when

52:03

He says in verse 14 that the logos sarks again, it's all became flesh

52:11

Just as Paul encounters the strong Attacks of the

52:19

Greeks when he talks about the resurrection the idea of the logos being personal and the logos being a person in that sense and The Greek speculative logos is is impersonal and is an ordering principle the logos of John Has eternally existed is in fellowship with the father and is manifest

52:43

When he enters into flesh and becomes the means by which the father is revealed to the world

52:49

So all of that has to be read first and foremost in the light of John as a monotheistic

52:55

Jew And the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and then you can say ah well

53:01

John also is living in a Greek context and so he utilizes Terminology would be familiar to them, but he does not allow it to Become what determines what he's writing instead?

53:16

He says things that the Greeks would never ever allow and that is the logos the creator of all things enters into Flesh as the person of Jesus Christ, not just a principle, but one who is eternally existed so that assertion from the beginning that the logos is personal has

53:33

Relationship with the father and then verse 14 enters into flesh and is a revelation of the father all of that from the very beginning

53:41

Demonstrates that John has no intention of being limited by the philosophical

53:48

Utilization of the term that would come from Greek philosophy So to assume that is to just you know stick your head in the sand and ignore

53:56

What the text itself is actually saying? Right and that makes perfect sense because I mean a lot of times a missionary will do a similar thing

54:05

They'll take the cultural framework. They're working in and they'll present the message I mean, it's sort of what

54:11

John's doing. It doesn't mean he's altering what he's saying He's just using that cultural framework, but it's it's really just saddening that you know

54:19

I mean he always Disguise a call. He's always bragging about how big his library is and He has all the right tools, but he just doesn't know how to use them properly

54:28

You know like he's just gonna use this argument and look at the etymology of logos And let's just ignore the context and what the passage is saying and we'll just focus on Yeah, and obviously their their hope is

54:42

That the Christian who hasn't said these things will be unstable enough to be influenced by them

54:47

They're not even really trying to to reach the people who've actually studied enough this stuff to be able to Demonstrate they really don't know what they're talking about so anyway alright, sir.

54:57

I appreciate your help. Thank you David Real quick I got a couple of moments here, but let's let's get

55:05

Mike in hi Mike hi, dr. White hi, I'll try to be quick I was actually in the chat channel not long ago, and I asked you a question about your section in the five views on polity book that you had written uh -huh and maybe that'll jog your memory and keep my question shorter, but I had to do it a position paper on ecclesiology for school, and I remember reading your section in there a couple other sections and Was just curious you didn't mention anything about how you understood

55:40

The the the choosing of elders and Excuse me like new elders and appointing new elders and in Your church or or your that system of church government?

55:54

I had I had come up with some things on my own, but I was curious to hear What it was or how you guys do things where you're at well

56:04

I Think as I said at the time There's there's certainly no hard and fast rule set out for this is how you do it

56:13

It's you're given guidelines and of course in in the New Testament you have Apostles initially in the in the transitional period you have

56:22

Apostles appointing elders such as Paul and Ephesus and other places and Then as Paul writes to Timothy, then you have the church itself

56:33

Dealing with this issue of elders now what is laid out are the qualifications for elders?

56:40

But what is not laid out outside of What's descriptive what is described and that is do not lay your hands upon a neophyte for example?

56:49

That is someone who does not have sufficient experience to function in the role of an elder is

56:54

How are those elders specifically chosen the only thing that we can see is that?

56:59

Timothy is to pass on the things that he has heard from Paul in the presence of witnesses to those that are worthy those who have the ability to soundly teach others and to Maintain the faith and so how does that process take place?

57:18

Well, I don't think that the New Testament provides any kind of absolute answer to that question as to how everyone is supposed to do that other than the qualifications are to be

57:31

Clearly kept in the forefront and there is to be an examination of those is that Examination only by the elders is that an examination by the elders in the congregation together?

57:42

Is that the elders who would put forward candidates to? the congregation because they've examined these individuals in regards to They're they're fitting the qualifications

57:56

Those things are not Laid out in any type of finality Those are about the only possibilities

58:03

I can think of that would fit within the structure of the New Testament Church But whether one does that from a congregational perspective with the elders doing that and then bring it to congregation

58:15

Isn't isn't decided by the pastoral epistles and and how that takes place in in that context.

58:22

So anyways filled up all of our time today, thanks for the callers those who waited and Didn't get to this other thing, but hey, maybe next time we'll use this one.

58:30

I don't know Next week should be on regular schedule. We're hoping so anyways, so Lord willing.

58:38

See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:34

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