Is God Just As Sad at Natural Disasters As We Are?

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Hurricane Ian for example how do we understand what's happening there

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I mean obviously we understand hey a hurricanes hit but then from a spiritual perspective how do we understand how are we supposed to look at that I mean is it is it right to say hey this is for sure a sign of judgment you know is it right to say hey it's for sure a sign of judgment over a specific people you know is it is it right to say hey it is for sure not a sign of judgment warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences these audiences may include but are not limited to professing

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Christians who never read their Bible sissies sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns homemakers who finished

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Netflix but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies your discretion is advised people are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the

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Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask we're your host Harrison Kerrigan pastor

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Tim mullet and today we'll be seeking to answer the age -old question is God just as sad about natural disasters as we are now if you

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I'm sure everyone knows about this at this point but about a month ago give or take hurricane

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Ian hit the state of Florida and apparently I was just reading about this

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Tim apparently this hurricane I didn't know this it was the most or is the deadliest hurricane since a hurricane that had landfall in 1935 so bad so almost a you have to go back almost a hundred years to find a storm that was at least as deadly as hurricane

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Ian was it was a huge deal and my parents they actually live in the state of Florida and they were they are fine they they thankfully were able to go further down south and stay with some family there where the storm wasn't really hitting but they they were telling me when they came back that you know that I mean there is significant damage to a lot of the houses and neighborhoods around them that it was it was a it was a pretty big deal that I think even that some houses were basically just completely gone and definitely

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I mean you can go and look at pictures and see just the widespread destruction that happened in some of these

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Florida cities where the hurricane hit the hardest I mean I mean I remember I saw some pictures that you know it's basically like a look down a strip of buildings and and I mean basically all the buildings are just you can tell that they used to be there but now they're just piles of rubble and and yeah where I used to I mean where I grew up in Florida it's basically been hit by tornadoes twice at this point so so you managed to get out just in time

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I guess yeah we got out and you know if we would have lived you know where we lived it would have been destroyed I think two times now

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Wow and you know it's funny because you move from there from Florida it's been hit by two hurricanes and then you move to a place that gets hit by tornadoes constantly right

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I mean did it yeah didn't you almost have your house taken down by one of those tornadoes it yeah we we did it was really close to the tornado was really close to our house it took off some sighting and you know some of our stuff around but it it sounded like it was it destroyed the house but when we were in there but it didn't but that has to be terrifying it was yeah the kids are a little bit psychologically damaged still psychologically damaged well

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I mean it was it was weird because we're in the we're in the bathroom downstairs and then all of a sudden the

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I think James Spann was telling us that the tornado was coming our way and you just right where we were at you know so we're in the bathroom then all of a sudden the sound go the all the power goes off and the broadcast goes off yeah then you start hearing the noise you know a few seconds later and then it

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I mean it sounded like we could hear the wind inside of the hallway you know where we're at and you hear the house falling apart but really it was only the sighting it was coming off but it was pretty it was pretty intense yeah that that I'm gonna be honest that sounds

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I mean just totally terrifying it's it's pretty amazing to think that there are natural disasters that can basically just I mean destroy everything that you own everything that you you have that you have in your life and can even kill you right yeah

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I mean we had five kids in there in the bathroom with us and all yours oh yeah the most unnerving thing about it was the fact that you know

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I had to think well who am I gonna try to hold on to you know I can't reach around them all you know and not that you know not that it would probably help anyways but you know

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I'm too stubborn to you know accept the fact that I wouldn't be able to hold on to at least one but it's just like I held on to Vivian our daughter and I'm like the rest of you you're on your own so basically all those times that your kids come to you and they you know they ask hey if we were all in the if we were all in the burning building and you could only save one of us you know you had you basically answered that question pretty much

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I mean I had her mainly and then you know it's trying to do the best I could but you know when push comes to shove

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I would have let go and said sorry guys you know oh that's really morbid that's that's pretty morbid hey is what do you do

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I don't know what you do well I you know I think putting all the joking aside I think really what what we're highlighting here is the fact that you know as advanced as we are as a society you know in terms of technology especially as you sort of you sort of look back throughout history

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I mean I mean we have tools now that they probably couldn't even dream of you know a thousand years ago sure right and even even having made all of that sort of technological progress there are still things you know in this world that we basically just I mean we don't have any control over you know and any sort of like direct sense right so we can't you know when the tornado comes the bet

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I mean the best we can do is try and try and build some sort of emergency you know shelter to to shield us from it but even that's not a guarantee right and and so it really should humble us in a certain in a certain way and help us realize like hey we're no matter how much progress we've made you know there are still things that are more powerful than us right and right and so that leads us to you know this question is

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God just as sad about natural disasters as we are you know obviously there obviously there's a lot that we have to talk about with this kind of question because I think there's a lot of assumptions made by people that aren't aren't right so so we sort of it's weird it's like we think about natural disasters in two different ways we think about natural disasters that happened in the

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Bible one way because normally we're getting some sort of commentary on what's happening behind the scenes with those natural disasters but then when it comes to natural disasters like Hurricane Ian for example or like those tornadoes you know that that come through that come through Alabama yeah

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I mean year after year after year we sort of it seems like even Christians who have all of this all of this biblical commentary on a lot of different cases where natural disasters affect nations we still don't think about natural disasters the same way the

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Israelites would have right yeah well part of a lot of that is the fact that we call them natural disasters okay so like just calling them that seems to imply that there is this thing nature you know mother nature that is operating independently of God that maybe you know at best

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God is a deistic kind of God who set the system in motion set the weather weather patterns in motion and now they're just kind of operating in a hands -off way yeah along those lines but then

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I mean that really isn't a biblical view of the way the weather actually works there you know this idea of natural disasters in general it's not a very biblical way of even talking about what we're talking about know the insurance companies like some of them still refer to these events as acts of God and we would do better to think about them that way because we don't naturally talk about them as acts of God anymore and we do talk about them in naturalistic kind of categories it does seem to imply in the minds of many people that these things are just you know glitches in the program or you know things that are somehow operating independently of God or you know maybe at best he he you know made the weather system at some point and now it's just doing its own thing and sometimes it has like hiccups and you know those hiccups can be pretty big problems but yeah it's not a very big biblical way of talking about it in general what's even more interesting is there are a lot of people who who will when they're when they're talking about these sort of like events that are happening in nature they often refer to you know mother nature right right and and in one sense they're just talking about they're just talking about nature in general right and they're sort of personifying nature but then

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I think what's actually happening there is at least subconsciously you know or however you want to put that like whether they realize this is what they're doing or not really what you're doing is you're talking about some sort of God right it's some sort of intelligence

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I mean not you know the natural world is it you know it's an inescapably governed by some sort of intelligence and there's no way to get away from it and everyone knows that so you're either going to talk about that under the lens of God's providence or you're going to talk about that under the lens of just some sort of mother mother nature or something along those lines right so so it does seem like even you know even in our sort of materialistic society that tries to find some sort of physical or scientific explanation for all of these for all of these events we still speak about them at least as if there is some sort of intelligent being who is behind you know working behind the scenes pulling all the strings for this and now we we as Christians understand that that God is the one who's doing this or at least we're supposed to understand that I don't

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I find myself questioning more and more if Christians actually think that God has control over the weather and you know what so I guess

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I guess let's start there you know does God does God have control over the weather yeah

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I mean the biblical God is you know the type of God that controls everything so everything in the world is a compelled by the word of Jesus's power so God didn't just he's not a deistic kind of God who just created the world set the system in motion and and functionally it's just hands -off not really actively involved if if God if Jesus were not upholding the world by the word of his power the universe itself would simply unravel so God is a sovereign

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God and you know as you read to the Bible one of the things you find over and over again is that you know God changes times he changes seasons he removes kings he sets kings up he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge those who have understanding

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I mean you can just think about some pretty big significant stories in the Bible that center around you know these acts of God or quote -unquote natural disasters like he

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God sees the sinfulness of mankind that every thought and intention of heart of man is only evil continually so he sends a flood to destroy the earth so there's a big example right there of a natural disaster that God used to destroy the earth but I mean this the whole story of Jonah is essentially a story of God's sovereignty were you know at every single point you know

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God appoints like he hurls a great tempest on the sea to threaten to break the ship up that never end right and then he sends a scorching east wind on the land in order to you know beat down upon the head of Jonah he appoints a plant right now to give him shade then he appoints a worm to kill the plant he you know appoints a great fish to swallow him up when he's thrown into the sea he is sovereign over the the roll of the dice at that point but I mean there's so many passages that you could think about that talk about this thing of Psalm 35 135 6 through 7 says whoever that whatever the

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Lord pleases he does heaven and on earth in the seas and all the deeps he it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth who makes the lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from the storehouses you know the biblical

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God he causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust so you know there's just passage after passage didn't say this kind of thing of Amos 9 6 says who builds his chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth the

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Lord is his name so over and over again as you read the Bible you're gonna see that God's in control of these things to great detail it's not just some process that he set in motion that's operating independently of him he's he's meticulously sovereign over these things right and it seems really interesting that you know so I mean some of those you know passages of Scripture really even whole books are there they're really common knowledge at least in the u .s.

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and and especially in our part of the u .s. yeah like like the you know Noah's Ark for example if I were to go out in public and just ask 100 people hey if do you know like do you know what

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Noah's Ark is about do you know what happened probably I would be willing to bet that at least 90 % of those people would be able to give me some sort of some sort of synopsis of what happened it may it might not be perfect but they would they would at least demonstrate some sort of understanding about what happened you know in that narrative and and even in that narrative you have a very specific commentary on what's happening

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God God tells Noah hey I'm gonna flood the earth I'm gonna flood the earth that's what

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God is saying and so we know that in that example God is sovereign over what like the the earth floods and God is what caused it to flood right sure and so so we have that sort of we have that sort of commentary there but then when we but then you know when we look at Hurricane Ian for example do is the is the first thing that we think hey this is this is coming from God no

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I I don't think so I I don't I really don't even see many Reformed Christians that are that are speaking that way honestly

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I mean I know that some certainly believe that that they are coming from God but I don't know that I even hear them speaking that way right right right and well yeah it's very rare that I think anyone will go that direction

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I mean the most recent time I mean I think I've heard Piper go that way a few times and you know he typically does is

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God a sovereign bit when the storms come I can't remember who it was the pastor who said that New Orleans the

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Hurricane Katrina was a judgment of God against the wickedness of New Orleans but that caused some controversy and stir a few years ago you know it's been you know a while now since that happened but but no

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I don't I don't most people don't think in those terms anymore most most of them are you know basically just as naturalistic as the rest of them in terms of how we think about it in terms of our first impulse is how we're processing these things and right

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I think anytime you have any kind of this is true as it relates to sickness as true as it relates to natural disasters we we basically just think this is just you know if we're going to be thinking in theological categories they put it in a category of God's you know just ordinary

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Providence and you know it's just a feature of life in a fallen world and period the end and if if that but then it's just almost kind of blind and purposeless and unintentional you know as we think about it yeah and and which really brings me to another question that is why so okay we've established

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God is the one sending every single you know sort of every single natural disaster right isn't right it's not so natural right and its origin obviously there's a way to it's not natural yeah it's it's a it's an act of God right obviously there's a way to scientifically you know explain you like observe what is happening but then right ultimately who who is the who is the one who is sovereign over it well it's

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God right and what so but we think in those terms because God upholds the world in a fairly consistent way and so because he upholds the world in a fairly consistent way in a way that can be measurable we naturally lean on those scientific explanations as if those scientific explanations are what's primary right in the same way that you know if I were to give an example of my son

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Roman has blue eyes so he has blue eyes and you know if you were to ask why does

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Roman have blue eyes then the vast majority of people even Christians included would be basically saying he has blue eyes because you know his dad has a recessive blue -eyed gene right and his mom has blue actually you know actually has blue eyes and so she has a dominant aneurysm you know yeah she got two recessive genes from someone else right and so from both of her sides and got it you know so he's getting up you know a gene from her and a recessive gene from me and putting that together now he has blue eyes so most people are going to think in terms of the genetics of the thing but then the real answer is and what's more fundamental and more primary is that God gave him blue eyes right right like so but we think naturally in terms of the scientific explanations as it relates to all of these things and we don't think about you know the supernatural origin of these things you know that's more fundamental right so you know

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I mean if you were to ask my you know my daughter why does Roman have blue eyes she would say because God gave him blue eyes and that would be better that you know

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I mean the substance I'm not saying it's wrong to go into the genes discussion it's just more primary it's more fundamental and it reflects more of a biblical view of the world right yeah they're not mutually exclusive they're not yes right right okay so we've established that you know these sort of things ultimately they're controlled by God right and and I'm assuming when we're saying hey

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God is the one sending these things he's sending hurricanes he's sending tornadoes he's sending earthquakes you know droughts famine whatever

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I'm assuming when we're saying those things if we're saying he's sovereign over that then we're saying hey he's sovereign he could he could stop any of them that he wanted to as well right yeah

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I mean he could stop him but then he's the one sending him right yeah so basically

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I'm just asking that to say like okay he's he does he decides when they start and he decides when they stop right right yeah yeah he could

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I mean he he not only decides to hurl it he decides to hurl you know hurl that great wind just like he did you know in the time of Jonah but he's deciding to do that precisely where he wants it's gonna go and the precise path that he wants it to go right yeah there's nothing about it that's accidental you know the

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Bible tells us it's gonna go in the same path he wants it to go and it's going to go for as long as he wants it to go right till he wants it to stop right yeah we see in the

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Bible over and over again it tells us that nature obeys all of his commands right right so as Jesus you know

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Jesus came and he calms the winds in the store storms you know the disciples basically look at each other and say you know what what manner of man is this that the winds and the seas even obey him yeah which has got to be pretty crazy to see in real life you know you see you see the guy get out on the you know on the boat and he just says hey cut it out wind you know and right and then it just stops all the sudden that would be it that would be just mind -blowing right but okay so so God controls when they start when they stop everything in between he saw he's completely sovereign over all of it so then the question becomes okay well if it's not just you know if it's if hurricanes for example aren't just you know they're they're not just natural disasters they're not just things that just happen when they happen you know they're not they're not a part of a system that perhaps

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God created but then you know there's a glitch in the system or something there they're actually just God sending something deciding when to start it and when to stop it the question then becomes well why why is he sending you know hurricanes for example why is he sending earthquakes why is he sending tornadoes what is the purpose behind these sort of events yeah

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I mean disappointed under man wants to die and after that judgment so the creation was subject to futility because of him who subjected it and hope of its deliverance you know so like the issue is that God has punished the human race because of our sin and there's punishment that has taken the form of disappointment to all of us that want like one at some point we're going to die we don't know the right or days but God knows the number of days but it's pointed unto all of us that we're going to die but then death pain suffering difficulties trials are all parts of life in a fallen world so God cursed their creation the creation itself has been subjected to feel futility because of our sin you know because of the human race is sin so one of the things that happened is that you know for for the woman that means in pain you're gonna bring forth children which you had some experience with that you know last week well

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I wasn't the one experiencing the pain but yeah you have ears you can hear it you know yeah yeah yeah my my wife she she gave birth to our second daughter last week so so that was really exciting yeah but but you know there's obviously there's obviously a lot of suffering not even just not even just with the the actual birthing part but even just the the nine months you know leading up to that there's a lot of there's a lot of pain and pain and stuff yeah but then the same thing you know the man's work is cursed because the the ground itself will be difficult to work and and you know

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I mean you think about the way that the world actually works I mean before the fall there isn't any such thing as a sudden burn there's no such thing as you know lightning that destroys things and everything like that so I mean we have like storms that are part of life in a fallen world we have lightning

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I mean lightning there's very few things that are more terrifying than a lightning bolt oh yeah striking right but then that all tells you something about the power of God the wrath of God judgment of God you know all these things are meant to teach you about God's character that he's a holy

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God and that he will not overlook sin and you know like he sent a flood it to flood the earth and then he puts a rainbow in the sky right in order to be his sign of his covenant that he'll never again destroy the earth by water again you know but like he but the issue is that you know this is part of life in a fallen world these are signs of judgment that God has introduced into creation these are these are punishments for our fallenness okay so so they're punishments like in a

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I guess you're speaking more in like a general sense right so just the mere fact that there was ever sin in the world even one time part of that you know part of that curse that came along with sin was

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God you know basically basically like okay now there's going to be there was there weren't tornadoes before there weren't earthquakes there weren't hurricanes there weren't tsunamis because those type those types of general punishments those are punishments they're meant to destroy they're meant to kill right and so that wouldn't have happened that wouldn't have been

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I am point to God's power I mean they're meant to just like reveal certain things about his character that he's you know just and he's holy and that he is like these are signs of his wrath that are being poured out on the right but but the main point is basically just to say like hey it's not they're not necessarily if we're speaking about natural disasters in general they're not necessarily tied to any one sin right oh they could be okay okay what do you mean all right so Jonas Jonas end and got a hold of great wind yeah the people said on whose account do you know did this evil come to us right essentially so tell us your name tell us your occupation you know where you know where are you coming from who are your people and you know they cast lots and the lots fell on Jonah and it and I mean the text itself says he hurled a great storm right because of Jonas sin right so so the issue is

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I mean he could do the same thing you know there's no there's no I mean we don't get the divine commentary on it at every point so we don't know on whose account this evil has come

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I mean it doesn't even have to be one person either you know I'm saying yeah like it can be whole nations yeah

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I mean it could be whole nations it I mean it could be selective individuals you know it could be a hundred individuals mm -hmm that he said it like the

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Bible says that all things work together for good to those who love God to those who were called according to his purpose so what that means is you know for those whom he fought for new

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Hebrew destiny become formed to the image of his son and God works everything to his glory and to make his people more like him so he can make his people more like him by sending a storm his way and if it takes him sending a storm their way to make him more like him

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I mean it could be that you know a thousand people are respond to that storm by becoming more sanctified mm -hmm trusting in God more so I mean there's no like not only can he send it in general as a general punishment you know as a part of the fallen world as a part of fallen mankind but he could also use that specifically in the life of specific people to you know be a specific act of judgment on their specific sin and also be a specific means of sanctification for specific people to I mean

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I there's nothing to say that he can't be doing all of that all at once mm -hmm in multiple different ways right

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I mean he's like you know who's gonna be his counselor his his ways are not our ways his plans are not our plans so there's there's no telling you get what

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I'm saying yeah yeah not you know I think of there's plenty of more examples in the Bible that that we haven't even brought up so another really really common one is you know the plagues in Egypt right right so he sends ten plagues why well pretty much just on the account

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I guess you could argue that maybe it was on the account of the account of a few different people but mainly it's just on the account of Pharaoh right he keeps refusing to to let the

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Israelites go even when God has commanded it and so they keep getting punished by things that certainly today if they were to happen people would probably just say like oh this is just you know this is global warming or producing these frogs yeah these frogs are a part of global warming obviously you know anyone who doesn't see that just can't understand these things you just need to trust the experts right and and I but so but every single one of them was a hardening

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I get God hardened Pharaoh's heart right right in order to do that but then he did it the text says so he can get glory over Egypt right yeah yeah

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Romans 9 talks about that right and then not only I mean it wasn't just that the

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Egyptians saw it the whole nation all the nation saw it and then they were their hearts melted away like wax because of this is the

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God who brought the Israelites out of Egypt so this God humbled the entire like the you know the greatest superpower that was alive at that time and that have ramifications for his people right mm -hmm and have ramifications for the nation

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Egypt itself but then for the nations that they were going into dispossessed and the same thing is true here you know when hurricane

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Ian comes this is a sign of God's judgment that has you know broader and further reaching implications and the people involved even you know the nation that it happened in it also has broader far -reaching implications all across the entire globe you know at this point with the way technology actually works so God has

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I mean I'm sure he has hundreds of thousands of millions of purposes you know right in one act to do a great many different things you know to reveal his character reveal his power reveal his justice to conform his people to his image and maybe even be a specific act of judgment against specific individuals who you know they it was there he numbered their days and you know he's specifically judging them at that point by sending that specific storm to you know take away the gift that he of life he'd given to them right so okay if these things you know they're a part of this world because we live in a world cursed by center right but then they also happen they also happen but you know they can happen in response to you know specific people that are you know that is that's a different sort of it's a similar category but it's a different category than just saying hey we live in a fallen world you know there's going to be suffering there's going to be death in this life what did you expect those are similar categories but they're not the same category and and basically we're saying hey look the

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Bible gives us plenty of evidence to say that they can both be true even in this you know

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I mean same time at the same time they're not mutually exclusive categories so so that seems simple enough and I just don't even know you just really can't even argue that point

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I mean the Bible over and over again shows us example after example where God is using the he's using nature as a as a judgment against specific people's sin so so that that seems like you just can't even argue that that that is what happens even now

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I guess the question then becomes you you've mentioned okay so we get in the

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Bible you know with the ten plagues with no you know the flood

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Sodom and Gomorrah is another example with all of these with all of these accounts we get we're getting some kind of commentary about what

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God is thinking what his purposes are behind the plans and and you also mentioned that you know today obviously the cannons closed no one's no one's prophesying anymore so we're not getting we're not getting that same commentary from God on Hurricane Ian as we are with the flood right sure so how do we when you look at Hurricane Ian for example how do we understand what's happening there

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I mean obviously we understand hey a hurricanes hit but then from a spiritual perspective how do we understand how are we supposed to look at that I mean is it is it right to say hey this is for sure a sign of judgment you know is it right to say hey it's for sure a sign of judgment over a specific people you know is it is it right to say hey it is for sure not a sign of judgment you know how are how are we supposed to look at that because I know there's plenty of Christians out there who are going to look at Hurricane Ian and and I think

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I think you mentioned it with the Hurricane Katrina thing now I guess almost Wow Robertson yes

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Pat Robertson I think maybe who said that it was because of the homosexuality that was there and maybe even the gambling or something and he got a you said he got a lot of pushback for that right yeah he got a lot of flack just for just for saying that right and so so obviously it's a scandalous thing to even suggest that you know some sort of event like this could you know could possibly be judgment on a specific people for specific sin so so how do we how do we look at this from the spiritual angle yeah

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I mean I think most people when they think about these kind of things they they only have a category for Job and the man born blind essentially so with Job you know we we also get commentary with Job but then you know his counselors his friends or whatever come and basically they didn't have a category like you know

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Job is suffering yeah and they thought well it must be because of Job's sin that he's suffering in this extreme way in the way that he's suffering so he must be uniquely more sinful than everyone else because of what he's done and the fact is he's doubling down on it and saying that there's no known sin that he had at that point and you know there in their mind that's you know basically adding insult to injury he just admit it man so that God doesn't just kill an entire person's family have all their property robbed and stolen you know like these like the there's a series of you know unfortunate events that he had gone through if there is such a thing as unfortunate events

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I mean he just went through you know disaster after disaster after disaster and they're looking at that and they're saying hey come on you know what did you do what did you what did you obviously did something which meant

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I mean if you under if you understand like you know back then it as far as I understand

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I don't know that this was necessarily always correct but it seems like that was pretty much the only category they really had right like God is sovereign over all these things and he and he does these things as like a curse right yeah

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I don't know that yeah and I don't know that that impulse is any better than the one we have now right right

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I mean no what I'm saying I don't know the impulse we have now is better than that I would say that's probably more biblical than where we're at now to assume like hey this is probably a punishment yeah so I mean for most of human history people thought like in even in scholarship you see a big historical event and what you would try to do is you try to interpret it through the lens of God's providence and you try to interpret

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God's providence you know in that way and that would be part of a paper that you would write you know what would be some of the divine factors that could factor into this specific event but like we're at a different point in history now where everything is just seen in terms of basically methodological kind of naturalism so we don't even factor in God's sovereignty and God's attributes and character into these kind of things anymore so but what

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I'm trying to say is yeah they at that point they more naturally thought you know if anything bad happened it must be that God's trying to show you something and now we don't think that at all right yeah there's no lessons to be learned in our mind from God's providence whatsoever in fact is inappropriate to ask and I would say that that's probably a bad worse state to be in than what they were in it's to say that there's nothing you could learn from this it's like what in the world you know but so so with with and I I think

39:30

I agree with you you know with that but then basic basically it seems like what you have to own then is you know you mentioned the man born blind right and the ferret the

39:41

Pharisees were doing the same thing Joe's counselors were doing yeah they were doing the same thing they were they were assuming okay this man must have done something he must be uniquely more sinful than they are because he was judged in this way right and and Jesus rebuked them for that right he rebuked them for that you know basically saying it was neither his sin nor his parents sin that caused him to be born blind he was born blind so that God would be glorified in the process and when he says something similar to that with the

40:09

Tower of Siloam instant where essentially what he says is you know on those 18 whom the

40:16

Tower of Siloam fell and killed them do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who live in Jerusalem but then notice what he says to them he says no like they weren't they weren't worse offenders but then he also says and this is something that people miss but unless you repent you all likewise perish like in other words they didn't get anything they didn't deserve right yeah now it's not like they were they were sinless right right so anytime any of this happens you can't say

40:44

God has done you anything wrong right all right now what you can't do like what you can't do in any of these situations is in any kind of simplistic way say well it must be that God like these people are worse sinners than anyone else which is why

40:59

God would do this you can't say that but then on the other hand you can't say and this is the opposite error that people are making you can't say the opposite error and that is well

41:10

God didn't have anything to do with that you know and in taking in its crass form you have our title question

41:16

God's just as sad about this as we are you know right which is he could do something about it but he can't you know like his hands are tied man what do you want him to do you know

41:24

I could so like that isn't true either so like the issue is it may be a specific act of judgment on specific people it may not you don't know right but you know what you should ask is in what way like if you're a

41:38

Christian you should ask in what way well is this helping me to be conformed to his image and there may be a lot of different ways that God could be doing that but like you may not be able to in the absence of some sort of divinely authoritative explanation you may never really know like with any absolute confidence why any individual thing happened but that doesn't mean that there aren't lessons to learn from it and it doesn't mean that it is just blind purposeless evil mm -hmm that's just random like God is doing this intentionally he has any number of purposes that he may not explain to us in this life or the next that he's using this evil for this natural evil for right and so then so so the issue is you can't know for certain either way but you know what we've done is we've saying well just because I can't know confidently

42:35

I don't want to be in a situation where I'm jobs counselors therefore I'm just going to basically say it has nothing to do with any of that it's like no that's not right you know it could there could be a bunch of Jonah's in that city you know you don't know you know

42:48

I'm saying yeah yeah yeah basically so I guess basically you're saying okay you can't you can't be the person who says okay

43:00

I see Pat Robertson I see Hurricane Ian coming I know for sure that this is

43:07

God's judgment over these specific people for this specific sin right right because then because then what you're doing is you're speaking for God right right without without having received any sort of you know communication from him about right which is a big deal if you read through the

43:27

Old Testament right if you prophesy wrongly or falsely in the name of the Lord that's a big deal go look up what the punishment for that is but then on the flip side it's not what were you gonna say yeah

43:43

I mean I I think you need to be very careful with what with that kind of thing right with saying hey it's a sign of judgment all right we're saying you know why in particular you need to be

43:57

I wouldn't say that absolutely you can never say I want to say you need to be very very careful so for instance

44:02

I mean if if Russia nukes us right right why did it happen well because God decided to make them nuke us sure

44:13

I mean but like isn't it related to all the same -sex stuff that's that same -sex marriage stuff that's happening isn't isn't it related to the sodomy isn't it related to the transgenderism isn't it related to the

44:25

Holocaust meaning like if America gets overthrown at some point mm -hmm like you can there are signs of judgment that any society is like there are signs of judgment that any

44:40

I got like nations rise and fall yeah and there are things that God says right that he will come in judgment against if a society goes down certain roads does that make sense yeah yeah

44:54

Sodom and Gomorrah like the prime example so yeah so you have Sodom and Gomorrah and God destroyed

45:00

Sodom and Gomorrah because they're evil was they weren't hospitable they were showing them that was sarcasm bad hospitality to those angelic messengers and all that but yeah

45:14

I mean so like the issue is there are signs of like you can look through the Old Testament you can see what are the things that the levels of evil like the the inequity of the

45:24

Amorites was not yet complete and all that but what are the signs of judgment that God looks at that he will say you know at this point once that depravity reaches a certain level

45:34

I'm gonna come into judgment so let's say America were to be overthrown you know from the perspective of history taking the long view you could look at that and you say hey you know they rejected

45:45

God and their thoughts right they burned in passion for one another men with men committing shameless acts you know they dash their little ones on the rocks you know in order to you know appease the

46:00

God of you know self self -reliance and materialism right so like you can write that story of God's providence at some point right right right yeah so if we go under at some point it's like yeah we're all addicted to porn right we're all killing all of our babies we're all we don't even know we've gotten so evil that we can't even figure out what the difference between a man and a woman is at this point right so yeah we we deserve it and and then if like the finally the you know shoe drops and we're conquered it's like well that's been building for a long time right and it probably had something to do with all that right you know

46:39

I'm saying yeah I mean there's a lot of factors that go into that I mean even just thinking about like what sin does

46:45

I mean just even just putting aside like the the God's judgment external externally part

46:53

I mean there's a lot that good like sin affects you as a person right and so when you have leaders that are actively encouraging sinful behavior

47:03

I mean you're gonna be affected by that right you're gonna be you're gonna be scared all the time right you know you're gonna be you're gonna you're gonna make stupid decisions because you're a sinful person

47:16

I mean I mean I basically what I'm saying is there is like like sin sin makes you stupid right so imagine like you know the drug addict guy who's been in the rock band his whole life and you know it's drug sex rock and roll women you know prostitutes all that stuff right like it's all that it's you know and then at the end of his life he dies of the drug overdose or whatever right right it's like well was that God's judgment against his sinful lifestyle had

47:47

God haven't had enough of it well yeah I guess so you know I mean it's not you know so what

47:53

I'm sure I'm trying to say is like you know God at some point he has enough with it right yeah it's it is done with it and you can see all the signs and sometimes that's clear and sometimes it's clearer and you know sometimes it's vague and I just think we need to be really careful right right so I mean

48:10

I think at some point the historians will tell the story of our demise and they'll know the signs that precipitated it because of their signs that the

48:21

Bible mentions it precipitate the the fall just like you've done with the Roman Empire at this point you know

48:26

I'm saying mm -hmm yeah you can tell you can look at all the steps and say okay like as a

48:31

Christian especially you can say okay look they were you know they were indulging on all of these and all of the sexual immorality they were worshiping false idols you know all greed right and so you see all those things and we can we can say

48:49

I mean we do say these things we do say hey you know like God removed them right

48:56

God yet God removed him and it's now I mean I just I think you have to be very careful you know be very careful and be very modest about what you're saying and and you know just put it out there as humbly as you can as and then

49:18

I mean I think time has a way of sorting these things out better than other times does that make sense okay yeah so basically you know like I was like I was saying earlier you don't want to be the person who is coming out and who is you know saying like Hurricane Ian for example we use that because it was pretty recent you don't want to be the person who comes out and says

49:43

Hurricane Ian was for sure a judgment on either you know those cities in Florida the state of Florida or the u .s.

49:51

all the voter fraud corruption that happened right yeah because of all of the voter fraud corruption you can't say that right because you're you're you're if you're gonna say that then you know like that specifically you know then you need to have a lot more evidence and it can be convenient you know the sin that you're pointing out and I mean

50:14

I'm not saying that there wasn't voter fraud I'm saying that that was it you think that was it you know right like that's a very specific that's very specific scenario knows the mind of God you know and I would be very cautious about that but I mean you can't do that but then at the same time it's not any it's not any more helpful to be the person who says well no this is definitely not a size nothing to do with it yeah right and what's obviously judgment like naturally you know the cow category of natural evil is a category of judgment as a cat it's just you know not necessarily so specific and personal judgment right times right right and and so the so probably the you know the best thing to do with a situation like this when you have a massive hurricane come totally

51:01

I mean destroying lives right and it's ending lives it's destroying the lives that people have built for themselves it's probably it's probably better to look at those things and say you know

51:14

I know I know that there's a lot of different ways to look at this right so I know that God gives trials to people that are completely independent of their actions right so right like when you look at Job for example now

51:33

I think he he did like at the end of that at the end of the book obviously God rebukes him but the point was to say like he's the he's the most righteous man in the world up to that point and then he has probably like the he has all of the stuff and then it all gets taken away from him in the worst way possible he's experiencing suffering like probably no one else has up to that point and it's it's not it's not because of his sin right it's because God is it is demonstrating his power he's demonstrating his authority so so we know that God gives trials to people and that those trials are meant to perfect our faith right so we know that that happens but then we also know

52:19

I mean you can just read all of this all of those accounts in the Old Testament for example or the New Testament and see

52:24

God does actually punish people for sin and and one of the ways he punishes and judges people and nations is by using these sort of natural disasters right and so when we look at Jonah yeah think about Jonah for instance like he

52:39

God sends a storm for the sole purpose of getting Jonah's attention but then it wasn't just that Jonah was the only one affected by it right yeah like all those mariners were affected by it but then not only you know so yeah it was specifically for Jonah but everyone else was affected by it and then you know at the end of the narrative then you know essentially they're the ones who were offering sacrifices and right yes to God so God used it for his glory you know and for their good like in that way too so as a trial for Jonah and it was active you know specific judgment if you want to put it that way for Jonah but not for them but then they still you know

53:23

God still used it he uses any one thing in multiple different ways and so you don't want to discount it you don't want to at the same time you know

53:32

I think I think what people are very sensitive about is like if you can see that there's a hurricane coming into a state and it's going down a very specific path right mm -hmm then you can't go well everyone in that path is uniquely much more wicked than everyone outside of that path right it's like well okay fair enough fair enough right like so whoever gets their house we can argue with that yeah no

53:54

I don't think you want to do that but then you don't want to say that a few of those people couldn't be right yeah yeah it seems like God's time for them to go it seems their iniquity was complete in his eyes you so okay using that John I think that's a helpful example to think about Jonah and the sailors right so God sending one storm that affects multiple people and for Jonah it is a sign of judgment right because he's actively disobeying

54:23

God well it's all it's a sign of judgment for them all it's a sign of judge like judgment against Jonah's actions in particular mm -hmm then like in like the rest of them were sinners too and they like this is a sign like a gent more general sign of judgment that was writing them that of their sinful state in general right right but then speaking and you know in terms of specific sin it was

54:47

Jonah's evil on whose account this evil came to the rest of them right and and for the rest of them it's it's more falling into that category of a trial right where it wouldn't say it's a trial for them because they're not believers okay but it does like bring them

55:04

I don't know that it necessarily says that they end up becoming believers but they at least start recognizing

55:09

God as God it yeah I think it was a sign of judgment that God used so he's into repentance so he so he is at least demonstrating his authority right especially because you know

55:24

I think the reason that they start recognizing him as God is because basically the minute they throw they throw

55:30

Jonah overboard it stops yeah right so so they're looking that at that and saying okay there is a

55:37

God out there he he's revealed himself through creation right Romans 1 tells us and he's done that specifically to us right now and so we need to acknowledge him as God what you know so so perhaps it's not a trial but it is at least drawing them to him yeah it means

55:57

God used to get their attention and so so would you say probably the most helpful way for Christians to look at this is to say that God with Hurricanian for example

56:06

God is probably using Hurricanian as a sign of judgment for certainly he's using it for a sign as a sign of judgment over sin in general but then he's probably also you know it's it's definitely you know a like a likely it's likely that it's a trial for some that he intends who who might not have any specific sin that he's judging but he is testing their faith to make them more dependent on him he's also probably using this sort of event as a judgment over specific people for specific sin that I cannot name because I am

56:47

NOT God right here sure and so we when we look at these things we need to understand that hey these are affecting you know especially at a scale like Hurricane Ian you're talking about thousands and thousands of people who all lead different lives who all have their their specific issues who all have their specific areas where you know they are being faithful if they're

57:10

Christians right and and there's not like a one size fits all answer outside of just the hey he's punishing us for general sin you know with the curse that came with sin right yeah it's just a category

57:25

I think we should all like we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss right right you know you may have a guy who's cheating on his wife or something like that and God sends a storm and I kill his wife you know kills his family mm -hmm you know destroys the home and he's saying you know you know he's weeping and this is because of me you know this and then you have a lot of genius evangelical types who will come along and say oh no it's just God had

57:54

God's just a sad about this is you you don't have to feel guilty over it it's like no it's I you know this is a judgment on my sin it's like you know maybe it was like I mean you know what do you do with that you say you you repent right right you know but if you can't get a specific sin out of your mind and you're associating this calamitous event with this thing you know it could very well be that God's using that to get your attention

58:20

I'm not gonna be the person to come along saying he's not I'm not gonna say he definitely is either but I it's something to consider right right so you know he does bring conviction you know so that could be the

58:32

Holy Spirit can make you about some specific thing you need to turn from yeah so basically all you know what we're saying here is essentially hey you do need to have a category that says okay you know when the natural disaster comes it's coming from God God's the one sending it is there sin in my life right am

58:52

I Jonah yeah my the Mariners right like you need to have you need basically you should have some sort of thought that needs to be in the thought process somewhere when you're thinking about like something like Hurricane Ian you need to ask yourself hey is there sin in my life you know is there is there sin like and my community right that this could be in in reference to is there sin in my nation that this could be in reference to and you know what am

59:22

I yeah you think in my Egypt my Jonah yeah right in my Egypt here and my

59:29

Jonah here you know in my lot living in Sodom and Gomorrah here right like what which character am

59:35

I and there's a lot of different characters I can be any of them I could be any of them yeah yeah and so I think what we what the vast majority of Christians do is say that the only character you can be is the man born blind mm -hmm it's like no you can be you can be

59:51

Jonah you could be you could be Egypt you know you could be a lot you could be you could be the man born blind you can be

59:58

Job you know you could be a lot of different people in this you know so yeah a lot so just just broaden out your perspective of this event and and that would be helpful okay last question what what would be more effective at stopping natural disasters climate change legislation or repentance emphasis on more effective that's nothing yeah

01:00:31

I mean the climate change stuff isn't gonna help I mean I I don't know that certainly you know natural disasters ramp up at times the presence of sand but and they are a feature of life in a fallen world so I know that if we repent perfectly as a people or a nation we're gonna be completely spared from all these things in general because God they are just general there are general signs of God's judgment too but you know

01:00:56

I don't think you want to give him reason to turn you into Egypt you know right right yeah so like for sure so if you repent you may not get as many plagues as Egypt got you know if you harden your heart you may you know so may get a few more yeah okay well fair enough

01:01:14

I think that's a good place you know for us to for us to end on this conversation

01:01:20

I'm glad that we get we finally got to talk about this one because I do think this is sort of a neglected category for a lot of people when it when it comes to thinking through hurricanes thinking through tornadoes earthquakes tsunamis all of these things is it really seems like people are incredibly closed off to the idea that it could possibly maybe perhaps be among many other things a punishment for sin at the same time and so so hopefully that's given you guys listening a lot to think through and a lot to apply practically as you as you observe more natural disasters more hurricanes tornadoes and whatever because because I've personally seen a lot of people especially people who who lean more on the left side who are claiming that these things are you know they're due to climate change for example and and they're due to this or they're due to that and I I want people to know and we want people to know that there is a spiritual explanation for these sorts of events going on and it's not it's not as simple as just saying hey if we if we stop driving as many cars then we won't have as many hurricanes it's not that simple and God's made it plain that it's not that simple and we don't need to be scandalized when people when people say or even suggest that this could be a punishment for sin so a lot of a lot to think through there for you guys and and hopefully you know hopefully you can sort of wrap your head around what we're saying because this is this really is pretty simple if you if you read through the

01:03:00

Bible fairly and and you just think about these things like the flood you think about Sodom and Gomorrah you think about the the ten plagues in Egypt you know you think about Jesus demonstrating his control over nature over storms for example because because those are the same things that are happening now right

01:03:24

I'm not necessarily frogs coming or or locusts but you know certainly that happens throughout different portions of the world and it's the the same mechanisms are in place from a spiritual view it's not like it's it's not like hurricanes now have a different reason for coming just because they're not in the

01:03:46

Bible the hurricane Ian isn't in the Bible so we can definitely write it off as as not punishment for sin because we're not getting commentary on it like those other accounts throughout

01:03:57

Scripture it hasn't changed it's the same it's the same reasons God he's told us how how those prior events work and then we can take those prior events and say hey let's apply that to the things that are happening now which is what we do with every other

01:04:14

I mean that's what you do with every other you know topic that you you study in Scripture you look at how it applied to them you look at the commands are given and then you ask yourself how can

01:04:25

I apply this to myself in my own life now here in the 21st century so a lot to think through there for you guys again we thank you for all the support that you give us weekend and week out and and letting us just come on here and talk about these different things and help equip you guys so hopefully it's been helpful for you guys and we look forward to having you on the next this has been another episode of Bible bashed we hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion we thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media please reach out to us with your questions pushback and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at Bible bashed podcast at gmail .com