Pro-life Leaders Resist Abolition in Louisiana(Proof)

Opening Banter and Ministry Updates

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt.

It's hung up on me. What? What? What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage. Go into all the world and make disciples.

Not go into the world and make buddies.

Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies. Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight. Proverbs chapter 12, verse 22. And Zach has one too. Go ahead, Zach.

For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity. Your lips have spoken lies. Your tongue mutters wickedness. No one enters suit justly. No one goes to law honestly. They rely on empty pleas.

They speak lies. They conceive mischief and give birth to iniquity. That's Isaiah 59, starting in verse 3.

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is Apologia Radio, the gospel heard around the world. You can get more at ApologiaStudios .com. That's A-P-O-L-O-G-I-A-Studios .com.

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We're grateful for you. You truly are a part of this ministry with us, so God bless you and thank you. If you haven't signed up yet for Bonson U, it is completely for free. If you want to have some of the best seminary-level education, you can get today and get it for free.

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So make sure you get your free account for that, and I want to say a big shout-out and thank you to everybody who partnered with us all of these years with End Abortion. Now, not only did you help us to raise up almost 900 local churches globally, most across the United States who are out saving lives on a daily basis and help to save thousands and thousands of children from death, you were a part of this historic moment with us.

We've been able to get bills of equal protection into numerous states across the country, from Arizona to Texas to Colorado to Pennsylvania to South Carolina to Louisiana, but we were part of, by the grace of God, a historic moment since Roe v. Wade, and that is that we had a bill that went past the hearing stage.

It passed overwhelmingly. Some guys actually said, absolutely, when they passed it in the hearing, and then it made it to the floor. That has never happened in 50 years of Roe v. Wade, and so I want to say thank you to all of you who have been praying, who have been serving, who have been giving all of these years to EndAbortionNow .com.

Not only is the gospel going out because of your participation with us in this, the word of God, but we're also saving lives, and we're getting bills closer and closer to that day where Jesus finally puts us under his feet, and we have our first state where we've abolished abortion and given equal protection to all humans in that state.

So it's a big moment of celebration. It truly is a huge moment of celebration to have this historic moment where the church, the church, the church, the church, was able to do this and get these bills not only into states, past hearing, onto the floor, that has been a work of the church.

It hasn't been from the establishment. It didn't come from millions and millions and millions of dollars of annual donations. It came from a single church in the desert, just partnering with Christians around the world, trying to be faithful to make this about Christ, to be consistent, and all glory to God.

And that brings us to the important moment we're in right now. Big moment. Some of you guys have been watching and keeping up. I want to first apologize for my voice, as Zach will attest to, and of course Luke as well, Arizona has some of the worst allergens.

Gnarly. Gnarly. It is gnarly here. It truly is. It was bad when I moved here in 1996. It is so much worse today. It is just increasingly getting worse. And so when the seasons change a bit or the weather warms up or cools down, people go through about a month, two months of just misery here.

I'm almost begging, like, Lord, just let it be 115.

I know, seriously. Just let it cook. Let it cook. So excuse my voice. It's unfortunate for this very important show. My voice sounds like I've swallowed sandpaper. But we have just returned from that historic moment in Louisiana, and I know many of you were praying for us.

You participated. You called these legislators, and you said, Do your duty before God. I'm praying for you. You were encouraging them to be consistent, to be faithful. What you did mattered there. It mattered.

Believe me, you had an impact. A huge impact. Those phones were ringing off the hook. Their emails were getting clogged up with Christians saying, As Christians, do your duty before God. Give equal protection.

Make sure you're faithful to what you said you believed in. And so I want to thank you all for participating with us. It meant so much, and we're going to need you next time. Can I just say one thing about that?

I don't think that, you know, if you think that that was a small thing that you did, sending an email to your representatives, let me tell you something. You directly took part in the discipleship of the nations.

You had a direct part in the Great Commission with us in proposing godly, righteous, and consistent legislation. And when you push that send button to send that email to the representative to establish justice and to do the right thing, you are taking part in exactly what Christ commands you to do.

Even if you weren't physically present at the rally, weren't able to be there, you were doing Great Commission work. By picking up the phone and calling the legislator and telling them to do what God commands them to do.

So praise God for you all.

Yeah, and you were pressing the crown rights of Jesus Christ. Never forget that the gospel proclamation comes with, within it, the proclamation of the lordship of Jesus Christ. And so when you go to legislators and you press them to be consistent, obey God, obey God's word, you're pressing the crown rights of Jesus Christ.

You're acknowledging the lordship of Jesus Christ over them. I mean, we can say Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords, but in a moment like this, you showed it. You showed it. You said you have to obey God rather than men.

You must obey Jesus. And so I want to say thank you so much to all of you who are part of this with us. And we're going to need you again. We're going to need you again. And I know that somebody might say, well, I feel really discouraged because these people who said that they were pro-life, that they believe that life begins at conception, they actually fought against the bill.

You know, it's an amazing thing. And I want to give you this very true statement, and you need to embrace it. We've been saying it for years, but all glory to God, because of what happened in Louisiana, we've got their names on the dotted line, telling the world what their doctrine truly is.

The pro-life industry and establishment, these pro-life legislators, they killed the bill of abolition of abortion in the state of Louisiana. The pro-choice industry did not need to get involved.

Aside from a few isolated shrieks.

Yeah. I mean, we had two people at the Capitol that day, two pro-choicers that were shrieking. One was applauding when we were talking about the murder of children. She was hooting and hollering like, yes, yes.

She was excited about it. I wish the legislators there would have actually seen that because there's the pro-life industry's victim. Yes. Hooting and hollering and just reveling in the fact that she would be able to murder her child.

That's the truth. Everyone who was there witnessed it. But the pro-life establishment actually did the heavy lifting. Yeah. Did the heavy lifting for the pro-choice establishment in the state of Louisiana.

The pro-choice establishment did not need to fight because they realized the pro-life industry, they've got this for us. And that's the truth. I am not being hyperbolic. And I said that a lot over the last week.

I think over the last couple of years when we've been saying, look, as a Christian church, as ministers of the gospel, this establishment does not hold to our doctrine. Yeah. They don't hold to the Bible.

They don't hold to the authority of Christ. They are not gospel-centered. They do not believe the biblical worldview. We've been saying it. We've been saying they've been killing every bill of equal protection we've put into all the states.

We've been saying it. And I recognize, I'll be humble enough to admit, I recognize you might sound fringe. You might sound tinfoil hat. You might sound like you're just being hyperbolic. And now, brothers and sisters, all glory to God,.

Now you know we weren't being hyperbolic. That is, of course, until you saw the letter signed by over 70 pro-life organizations that specifically said, don't support this type of legislation because of the second victim narrative, the woman being a victim, all of that.

We're going to show all of that. Seeing it in print, seeing them sign off on it. We're not talking about vague organizations. We're talking about national organizations. And, of course, there's harmony between them and the lower entities.

But when you see it in print, it's really something to behold.

We're going to give you inside information in this show. I hope you share this show. It's very, very important that you do get the word out. We're going to share things behind the scenes that we have not said publicly yet.

And you're going to hear things about Representative Seaball and Representative Ivey that I'm sure that they wouldn't want people to know. And Representative Seaball and Ivey, I want to encourage you to listen and to be humble enough to listen to what we have to say today and to the refutations of your position.

As a matter of fact, you were lying, lying on the floor. And the fact of the matter is, you know that you were lying on the floor because I talked to you, Bradley Pierce talked to you, Zack Lautenschlager talked to you behind closed doors, and we refuted all the arguments you were using on the floor, up and down and sideways, two days before you actually went to the floor with those same lies and same bogus arguments.

And I would actually invite Representative Ivey, come on the show. Come on the show and defend your position. Defend the things you said on the floor. See if you're courageous enough to actually defend what you said on the floor under cross-examination.

It's one thing to do it on the House floor during a vote. It's another thing to do it here with us on this show. You were all given sheets with refutations of all of the objections to the bills. They were sitting on the desks of the people on the floor that day, and you continued to perpetuate a lie.

And so in many ways, Representative Seaball, Representative Ivey, you are responsible for the death of every single child in Louisiana from the day that you resisted this bill onward. It is on your hands.

You are directly responsible because you worked behind closed doors and in secret meetings to convince people not to pass the bill that Representative Seaball, you told me you did believe in. You were the man that said about the bill in the hearing, absolutely, absolutely.

And I brought that up to you in a secret meeting, didn't I? Behind closed doors, our little meeting. I brought it up to you that you said absolutely because you saw the bill, you knew that it was consistent with what you professed to believe, and you said you only got into politics to do one thing, and that was end abortion.

You had tears in your eyes with me. And then two days later, two days later, Representative Giudice stuck a knife in the back of Danny McCormick on the floor, and you repeated the same bogus arguments that were refuted to your face two days earlier.

And so we're calling you out. We're calling you out. We're going to make sure everyone in Louisiana knows about your compromise and the fact that you, the two of you, are specifically responsible for killing the bill of justice in the state of Louisiana.

So you're saying it wasn't an issue of ignorance. No, it's culpable.

Got it. It's culpable, and we're going to go into that today. And on the show today, speaking of loving your neighbor, Pastor Luke is actually with us, but he is not live sitting next to us because he's trying to love his neighbors because in Arizona right now we've got the allergy attacks, we've got also a flu going around Arizona that's pretty treacherous, and we've also got some kind of stomach issue that's been going around for like two months.

And so he's at home right now because of the potential of that sickness, and so he's loving his neighbor.

He's quarantining, but not government-ordered.

No, it was personal. He did it of his own free will and accord. It was self-government. That's right.

Pastor Luke, what's up? It's really strange being on this side of the Zoom call. Yeah. And actually, I honestly think my daughter is dehydrated, which is another issue right now in Arizona. It's a big issue right now, yeah.

It's crazy. I was talking to my wife today because I was trying to figure out what to do. I think she's okay, but I wanted her to be safe just because of the stomach bug that's so nasty right now. Have you guys noticed how many people have been getting hit with dehydration?

I mean, I've been here 15 years, and I don't ever remember it being this bad. We have people at church almost passing out because they're dehydrated. Yeah, it happened last night.

I've been taking my son to a historic Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and Judo class. Actually, to Jude's in it too with Stellar, Pastor Zach's son. And in the class last night, in his class, one of the kids started having a spell because he was super dehydrated.

Sweating all over each other. Oh, yeah, but it wasn't that bad. The class wasn't crazy. It shouldn't have happened like that. But yeah, I saw it last night in a class as well.

I was working on my computer on, I think it was Monday, and I saw a thing pop up at the bottom, and it said extremely high UV warning or something. I was like, what the heck is that? I've never even heard of that, so I'm looking it up, and I guess the UV levels have been just highly dangerous.

So anyways, just to add to the treachery of this show, between the treacherous things we've got to deal with health-wise here in Arizona and the treachery going on in the Louisiana House of Representatives.

Let's get to it, guys. So I want to say to everybody who's listening, very important, we're going to say things today that specifically relate to an industry, to an establishment that needs to be confronted as the Christian church.

That's the clearest thing I can say, is that what we're saying about this industry and their doctrine, because it is doctrine. Most definitely. It's what they teach people. It's not that we don't like that, or we have a different methodology we've come up with.

We just think it's better. We want to try to run this play. We're ministers of the gospel. We're Christians, and what we've been trying to sound the alarm about to the Christian church, to fellow pastors, maybe like some of you who are watching right now, is that we have to understand that this industry has robbed women of the hope of the gospel.

Yes. Because it tells them, as a part of their formal doctrine that they've signed on to, their formal doctrine is that the woman who has an abortion, who actually brings her child to the abortionist to have that child dismembered, decapitated, and disemboweled, that woman, and of course the man with her who's helping her do it, they bear no guilt.

There is no shame. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are under the pro-life establishment. If you're a woman, there is no condemnation. There is no guilt. There is no shame. Now I'm going to just direct this quickly to—we have a lot to go over today.

We're going to show you clips and videos and all the rest. I want to speak directly to pastors for a moment. I'm a minister of the gospel. I'm a pastor. I'm not a perfect man. I'm not a perfect pastor.

I don't have all the answers. I'm not the reference point. Okay? Let's put that out there. Nobody here wants to be a celebrity. Nobody here is a rock star. We are just Christians from a relatively small church in the valley in Arizona who are trying to approach this explicitly as Christians with the gospel.

We're trying to take what we preach on Sanctity of Life Sunday into the public square and to the legislature. We're not trying to have two sides of our mouths where we speak against this issue in church with the gospel.

We call it what it is, murder. And we tell women there is hope in Jesus Christ and forgiveness and there is washing and there is freedom and there is peace if you turn from this sin that you've committed to Jesus Christ.

We know we, as ministers, pastors, you know that you've sat in the same rooms that I have with women who have had not just one, but two and three and four abortions and you have poured your heart into these women with the verses that God promises salvation and forgiveness and peace.

You've poured those into those women. You say you can turn from that to Christ. You can be forgiven and washed. And Jesus says it's finished and it's all washed away. Take your guilt and your shame to Christ.

You know you sat in those same rooms just like me. Maybe you're sitting in one today. It's going to happen. If you're a pastor, if you're a minister in this country, it's going to happen to you. It will.

Now, I want you to understand that the pro-life establishment says officially, their doctrine is, that what you said to her in the counseling room was not true. She does not need the forgiveness of Christ for her abortion because she is herself a victim.

She bears no guilt. She bears no shame. There is nothing that she has done where she needs forgiveness because she is herself a victim. Now, brothers, we've been saying that for years. Now, that issue is the supreme issue.

What does God say about abortion? And what hope do we have for women who have had them? We would say it's the gospel. Christ forgives the sin of abortion. Now, if you're a minister of the gospel, you're probably saying, yes, Jeff, get to the point.

Well, here's the point. The pro-life establishment, they don't believe that. They don't believe she's guilty at all. She bears any guilt, and she should never be seen as guilty for an abortion. That's what they believe.

We're going to prove it to you. We've been saying it for years, and brothers and sisters, it's not just a quote-unquote gospel issue in the church because that nefarious doctrine that they believe, that anti-Christian, anti-gospel doctrine they believe, moves its way from the conversation to the church, and it goes to the legislators.

And they said, no, no, no. You can't pass a bill of equal protection that says that it's human from conception and deserves equal protection. The legislators in Louisiana go, wait, I thought that's what we believed in.

And they go, well, yes, but we don't want equal protection as if we want the mother to be seen as guilty. She, you see, is a victim just like the baby. And so what happens is this false, anti-Christian, anti-consistent, irrational belief that they have that you wouldn't see in any other category of crime and sin in the nation.

They've just created it to try to placate to the culture, to try to placate to the woman, to try to make friends with the world. And now that doctrine has moved its way to the legislature to kill the bill that they said they believed in.

What do I mean by that? And I'll shut up and kick it over to you guys. They believe, they teach, they raise funds with the belief that what's in the womb is human from conception, fully human. They argue that, they say it's sacred, it must be protected.

So that's why, friends, brothers and sisters, when these legislators before the hearing got the bill, HB 813 on their desks, when they got it in front of them, they said, well, of course, of course. And that's why Representative Sebaugh said, absolutely, to the hearing.

Seven to two vote, get to the floor, we're voting on this. Representative Sebaugh said, absolutely. Why? Because that is what they say they believe. But after it passed the hearing stage, historic moment, never happened before, the pro-life establishment, specifically Louisiana Right to Life and all the other organizations were in a frenzy.

I want you to know that. I was there. Behind the scenes, it was a frenzy. They were in full panic mode. How do we tell all these legislators not to pass this bill? Do you hear what I said? The pro-life establishment told the legislators, don't pass the bill to abolish abortion.

Don't do it. Because they don't want equal protection, brothers and sisters, so they killed it. And we're going to examine it all today.

So important what you're saying about this being a doctrine in the pro-life industry. What is a doctrine? We have a doctrine as Christians that's tied to our fundamental foundation, and that is scripture, and that is something that we're not willing to surrender.

That's what it means to have a philosophical pre-commitment, a presupposition. We're not willing to sacrifice our ultimate standard. And when it comes to the pro-life industry, they're not willing to sacrifice that as their ultimate standard.

What am I talking about? The philosophical assumption and pre-commitment that the woman herself is a victim. They're not willing to give that up. And so you have this collision of ultimate foundations, and you have what you're talking about in the legislative sphere, which is, let's just call it what it is.

It's heresy. This idea that heresy, heretical teaching, just exists within the four walls of the church, if we're talking about justification by faith, if we're talking about a violation of the doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Christ, we recognize that rightly as heretical teaching, any teaching that contravenes those fundamental Christian confessions.

But somehow, when we don't recognize the alien invasion, this foreign idea, this assumption of a pre-condition that says a woman is a victim, you can't maintain that commitment and the commitment to scripture at the same time.

You might confess it in the church, just as you said, in the four walls of the church. No, people are guilty. They need Christ's forgiveness. That shame needs to turn them towards Jesus for cleansing and forgiveness.

But when we make our way over into the legislative sphere, because of that collision between ultimate commitments, what you have in the public square is heresy. And we don't recognize it because we have limited heresy and heretical teaching to the four walls of the church.

And so that way, when we go and we apply the word of God to the public square, we don't realize that what we're actually doing is committing heresy when we introduce false and ungodly and inconsistent legislation.

And so let's just call it what it is. This idea, this fundamental pre-commitment that colors all of the laws that we see surrounding this issue that lies about the women or the man, whoever's responsible, that says that you can kill this group of children but not this group of children, what do we call that?

Partiality, right? Showing favor to one group over the other. We recognize that in the walls of the church. James recognizes that, right? He says, you can't tell the rich person, hey, come up here, have the nice seat, and then you guys, you get the back seats, right?

What are you doing? You're treating them partially. We recognize that in the church and we don't allow that. But when we get to the public sphere and we say, you can kill this group of children but not this group of children, what is that?

It's heresy. It's heretical teaching. And we got to recognize it so we can confront it. Yeah, Luke?

Yeah, I don't want to get too far into this, just because I know we're going to get knee deep in it in a second. We're all fired up today. Oh, yeah, we're fired up. I was going to say that. We're fired up.

We were fired up last week. I was re-watching the hearing again this morning and I'm fired up all over again. But I know, Jeff, you kind of mentioned it earlier. What took place in Louisiana, we've been saying has been happening for years now and I just think people don't believe us.

So I want to offer some encouragement because, yes, this bill didn't we didn't get the result we wanted with this bill. And we're going to hold those accountable that are accountable for it. But in some ways, there's a lot of positive things to look at from this, that being we have forced the pro-life industry to not only say out loud what they've been saying behind closed doors but put it in writing, put their name to it, sign it.

And in many ways, that's a win because people just haven't believed us. And now we say, here it is. This dude put his name to it. This is what they're saying behind closed doors. And they're frauds and they've exposed themselves.

So we've forced them to expose their fraudulent ways. And so in many ways, that's a win. And, yeah, I'm ready to get into this.

And let's get to that, Luke. So I'll stick on that point you just made in terms of we've been saying this for so long. We've been saying it for so long we even made a movie about it. Babies Are Still Murdered Here is our film.

Did we? Yeah. That's the basis of the movie. Babies Are Still Murdered Here is part two. Babies Are Murdered Here is part one. Babies Are Still Murdered Here we released a couple years ago and encourage you to watch it.

It's free on YouTube. And the whole point of that film was to try to sound the alarm to ministers of the gospel and to Christians that this industry, they are not Christian. They are explicitly not Christian.

They say so. And they're not fighting this on the basis of the authority of the Word of God or consistency in legislation. They have a doctrine that they are impressing. She's a victim, she's a victim, she's a victim.

Now we said this years ago. We were trying to sound the alarm and say, believers, brothers and sisters, listen to what they're saying. These are the top people. This is what they believe. And this is why they're resisting bills of equal protection.

They don't want to see abortion abolished as a crime in their state. They don't want that. They're not working for that. And so I just want to prove it to you and just kind of take you through the line here of some stuff that I think you need to see before we get to their putting their names on the line.

Listen, and Luke made a good point. This forced them to put their name and approval on a page. The biggest organizations, large ones, put it on a page with their doctrine, and they had to release that one day to all the state legislatures across the country.

Same day, correct? I think it was the night before, wasn't it? Or maybe it was the same morning. Okay. I'm not sure. It was very close. It was either the night before or it was the day of the actual vote on the floor.

So they felt compelled to do that. They were compelled because of the bill. Because of the bill. They had to force them to not vote on it. So here it is. This is from the film Babies Are Still Murdered here.

I want you guys to see it.

It's absolutely fine right there. Sure, I'm the director of American Victims of Abortion for the National Eye to Life Committee. And that is one of our several outreach programs. It was developed in the early 1980s by women like myself who have been through an abortion experience.

Did you get the language?

Don't miss the language. Yeah, listen closely. Listen closely. I've been through an abortion experience.

Do you hear thieves talking that way? Right. In other words, it was something that happened to me. Right.

Not something that I sought out. Yeah, like when people, you know, commit theft and they're within a church and like they come to Christ later, they've been to prison and all the rest, right? Heists and robberies.

Do they then start organizations later to say, people like myself that were, you know, that had theft experience. A theft experience. All right. Now, what do we say? Like, I was a thief. I stole. You know, I did this.

I did that. I'm guilty and God forgives thieves. She says, I had an abortion experience. No, you delivered your child to be killed via abortion. Right. And you know what? I want to say that to her because if I was talking to her on the street, I would want her to know Christ.

That's right. I would want her to know His forgiveness. And I think I would hear in that, wait, wait, wait. Are you not accepting culpability for what you've done? Don't you know that you need Christ, that He can forgive you of your sin?

Why are you trying to pass it off as something that happened to you, an experience that you happen to have, not something that you actually are culpable for? Yeah. You did this. You did this. And it's such a joy to see, you know, some very important people in the pro-life industry like Abby Johnson.

Now she has moved away to consistency to say, no, I did this. I'm responsible and I'm really glad to see that.

She's commenting underneath Louisiana Right to Life saying, what are you guys talking about? I thought we're fighting for equal protection. Right.

I thought we believed it's human. What do you mean? Whatever do you mean? And so it's, listen, the only hope we have any of us is to come to Christ with our whole self broken so He can raise us up, right?

And so we come to Christ as sinners confessing sin. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we confess our sins. Yeah, right.

Right. We don't come to Jesus and we like, you know, he's saying, well, he says you're guilty of that. You need to repent of that. And we go, well, you know, Lord, I mean, you know, kind of. I went through this adultery.

You know, I had an adultery experience. No, no, no. I committed adultery. I was an adulterer. And so just hear the language, brothers and sisters, because it's critical. Now this is Olivia Turner, right?

Yeah.

I remember her. Yeah. Here's more. Alongside of sometimes the fathers of aborted children. And we are really a public, if you will, public witness to what we know about the experience of abortion from the inside.

The pro-life movement has a lot of women who are active in it who have had abortions. And they very much argue that the mother who got the abortion is also a victim. Okay. Hey, ladies, I'm Jeff. What's your name?

Hi, I'm Jensen.

We'll get to that in a sec. That was Carol. Carol Tobias. She is the president of National Right to Life, one of the largest pro-life organizations, if not the largest on the planet. Now working in not just the United States of America, but other places as well.

And so that is from the horse's mouth, as they say. So glad we got that interview. I know. And it's totally providential, because they didn't know who we were. And we sat down, and they just said it with their own mouth.

That's what the Lord gave us.

Can I just tell you, like, that whole experience, 2017 National Right to Life, my mouth was on the floor listening to these people talk. Yeah. I couldn't believe it.

And so let's get into that question. So you heard there the leader of National Right to Life saying that they believe that the woman is herself a victim. Now we dropped this film. We've been saying it for much longer.

But we dropped this film October 31, 2019. So 2019, we dropped the film with these interviews with their own statements, not just us saying they believe this. And they were like, no, no, we don't. No, that's what they believe, and they're not ashamed of it.

When we dropped our bill here in Arizona of equal protection and abolition of abortion in Arizona, we dropped it. And it was Cathy Herod from Center for Arizona Policy that came out publicly and immediately the day of the rally we had and said that they believe that mother and baby are both victims.