Jamal Badawi Comments

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good morning good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning 11 o 'clock in Phoenix, Arizona The last I think a semi cool day.

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We're gonna have for a while. I saw 111 on one of the predictions for Thursday So once you get a one in that second digit you you know that Summer has arrived.

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But hey, it took a while to get here So can't complain too much about that when you have 90s in Phoenix this time of year.

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Hey Yeah Take what you can get eight seven seven seven five three three three four one before we start to doing anything in regards to even

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Encouraging much in the way of phone calls. I wanted to get to a couple of things first Some of you may have seen the announcement this morning on the founders ministries blog

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Tom Askew Has announced I'll just read it for you here If you did not see it today at the founders breakfast in San Antonio I announced an upcoming conference on building bridges

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Southern Baptist and Calvinism The conference is being jointly sponsored by founders ministries and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary It is scheduled for November 26th at a 28th at Ridgecrest Conference Center in North Carolina details we made public over the next few weeks the reason for making announcement now is to encourage people to hold the dates and Begin making plans for what promises to be a historic gathering for Southern Baptist It goes on to say the purpose of this conference is to bring together

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Southern Baptist of various theological Commitments in order to hear pointed Presentations and dialogue about what is arguably to the most important theological movement among us today

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It is certainly one of the most controversial movements on the scene Some people seem to despise these those doctrines have historically been denominated

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Calvinism others greatly fear them some caricature them beyond Recognition and that's the truth among the proponents of Calvinism There are some who seem to be more interested in winning theological debates than in advancing the kingdom of God by preaching

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Jesus Christ Others allow their commitment to God's sovereignty and salvation to excuse their lack of evangelistic passion or to justify a pugilistic spirit

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It is time for Southern Baptist to come together to discuss openly and also why isn't there a paragraph about the other side?

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I guess that previous paragraph was but there needs to be a other side paragraph amongst the proponents of Arminianism are some who seem to be more interested in notches in their gun belts

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Than they are in advancing the kingdom of God by preaching Jesus Christ and the entirety of his gospel others allow their commitment to man's free will and salvation to excuse all sorts of theological and biblical and Ecclesiastical errors including building baptistries for kids that have cannons that go off when you get baptized

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I think that would be a good one to stick in there Anyway, it is time for Southern Baptist to come together to discuss openly and honestly these particular doctrines of grace that once were the theological

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Consensus among our forebears. Oh, that's a little bit of a Disputed statement.

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I wonder if there'll be some debates on that and is now becoming more prominent among us again the organizers this historic gathering envisioned sessions addressing the strengths and weaknesses of both

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Calvinistic and non -calvinistic positions on salvation the presentations will be exegetical theological

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Apologetic passionate and pastoral our desires for the issues to be addressed in I like this what I call a ruthlessly biblical manner

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If you can get even half the time to be in the actual text itself, you'll be doing well

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Such an approach will be neither rude nor superficial rather if our goals are met They will be energetic thoughtful and humble and all who participate will walk away with a deeper respect for arguments both for and against the reformed understanding of salvation

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That one struck me as a little bit odd because There's only one side in my experience actually knows the arguments of the other side very well in my experience

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The other side just doesn't know the argument. So one side could grow I'm not sure how I could grow in respect for the arguments of the other side

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Of course, I've been listening to those arguments for a long long time but anyway

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More importantly, we hope that all will recognize more clearly the glory of God displayed in the salvation He has provided for sinners in the person work of his son

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That is something which both Calvinist and non -Calvinist need in increasing supplies Please join me in praying the

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Lord will use this Opportunity to strengthen the fellowship and spiritual health of his people known as Southern Baptist I believe that both are within reach stay tuned for forthcoming details.

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Well, that's going to be very interesting And it's gonna be very very interesting to see who's gonna be there.

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Will Ergin canner be there is the question? if he's not

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Will he be there anyway, I mean in a sense, I don't know how he couldn't be because you know

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People are graduating from Liberty University going out into Southern Baptist churches and Referring to anything that is set smacks of reformed theology is hyper

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Calvinism So that misdefinition that absolute refusal on canner's part to use theological language in a meaningful

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Fashion has to be addressed somehow somebody's gonna have to do it whether he's there or not And if he's not there, then there's always gonna be the well, you know

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You're caricaturing someone's position if they're not there to present for themselves and but if he is there then

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That could be really interesting too Who knows it it'll be interesting to read the reports and Maybe it'll be

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Broadcast or webcast or something. Everybody was listening to the pastors conference the

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Southern Baptist Convention yesterday online, so Anyway should should prove to be interesting.

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So that's uh, that's some of the news coming out right now I want to make sure to get to some clips today.

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I was listening to Once again doing what I can while while writing

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I was listening to a debate between Dr.

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Anish Arosh Christian and dr. Jamal Badawi a Islamic apologist and there were a couple things that were said that really struck me and Some of this will be instructive for you in regards to again making sure that we have a solid understanding of the

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Islamic mindset and argumentation presented by Muslims, but likewise the arguments that Dr.

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Badawi presented against the deity of Christ are so very common to other groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Even the way international and the offshoot groups from that that some sometimes

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I think people's are turn tune out when they start hearing maybe a Arabic accent or something like that or Muslim or Islam people start to now realize that a lot of the arguments used against the faith have a lot to do with one another and Being sound and solid in one area you'll discover that you may well have some things to say in other areas as well.

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So many of these things are So shall we say cross -platform relevant?

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It's not just like I'm sitting here going Well, we're going to talk about Macs on the program today and everybody with a Windows machine goes away

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That's that's not exactly the you know, and the analogy that would work well Anyways, I wanted to play some first I've mentioned and people sort of look at me stranger and mentions

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I've mentioned the Muslim view of prophets and Dr. Badawi gave us a good example of the

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Muslim view of prophets. Listen, listen to what he asked to say here I must comment here that Muslims believe that every child is born sinless and We believe in the sinlessness of the prophets and we do not accept stories that attribute horrible

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Moral conduct to the great prophets and messengers of Allah. The Quran is totally free from this kind of material

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We believe all prophets were sinless as much as any human being of course can be sinless It does not mean that they are not human

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It simply means that in two matters the matter of communication of the message of Allah to the rest of mankind

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There could be no confusion of belief and that's why Muslim do not accept the story about Aaron participating in making the golden calf

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That's totally rejected in Islam or that Solomon was inclined Toward the pagan gods of his wife.

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There is total absence of that in the Quran The Quran defend prophets in that respect and sin is also in a sense that even within their limitation as human beings

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They could not and they have not been chosen to commit certain

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Moral acts or moral disobedience to Allah like infest or adultery or getting intoxicated

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Because that blemishes their basic moral character and make them Unfit to be barriers of the words and message of Allah So there you have

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I think a nice succinct statement from the Islamic perspective

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They believe that they are defending the prophets by attacking The Bible's presentation of the fact that prophets are human beings

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Notice the connection between the authority and Validity of the message and the messenger in the

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Islamic mindset The idea is, you know, very clearly that if if Solomon later in his life is drawn away by his wives from that wisdom and that dedication to to Yahweh that he showed earlier in his life then this somehow

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Invalidates or weakens or some way destroys the validity of of what was revealed to him earlier in his life rather than this presenting a a

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Tremendous warning and picture to us of the fact that you can be used greatly by God But that is not an excuse to become lax spiritually and and to become apathetic

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Just because you experience a great height in your spiritual life that then you you know

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You've arrived and and now everything's good. Just like there truly is no Insight in the

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Quran and in Islamic theology Into the depravity of the heart of man. It's just not there

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It's just not a part of of what you're going to experience And so as a result you can see the massive difference between us in regards to issues like atonement and salvation

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There is there is an in essence a form of Pelagian ism anachronistically speaking there and again over and over again you see that the

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Muslim by the acceptance of the supremacy and finality of the Quran is

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Forced into a form of anachronism the Quran becomes the lens Through which you you look at everything else and and therefore the

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Quran Corrupts the Bible in the sense that anything that disagrees with Muhammad's Miscomprehensions and misapprehensions and and ignorances has to be torn out of the text of the

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Bible now from the Islamic perspective That's a little bit different. In fact this next clip. I want right the beginning

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Dr. Bata we make some statements about the Bible and If you have a

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Quran look up surah 548 Surah 548 and we will we will take a look at that in just a moment because he's going to mention it right here

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But let me also say that it may be legitimate to make some reference to a

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Possible understanding of what the Bible also say about Jesus does that mean that the Muslim?

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Accept every word in the Bible Does that mean the Muslim accept every word attributed to Jesus as uttered by him rather than in some cases put into his mouth?

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The answer is no it doesn't imply that at all first of all as indicated last night

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The Muslim does not accept the Bible in total or rejected in total in fact

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Now I remember the the Shabir Ali debate met what was Shabir saying it's it's a mixture of the words of God and the words

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Of men when I asked him cross -examination, how do you know which is which? Well that would which agrees the Quran is the words of God that which does not as words of men

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This is a this is Islamic anachronism, this is the backwards looking is

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Muslim looking at the scriptures that came before and by accepting Something it comes 600 years later in regards to the

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New Testament And if you want to go back to Solomon stuff like that you're talking about a much longer period of time well over a millennia of time passes

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No access to the original languages completely different place you still take that one man's word from Arabia as the final be all and end all of all things and therefore you then

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Corrupt the biblical text to fit the paradigm that you are creating That's that's what you have going on here, and so you heard that was

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Shabir Ali You know you're now hearing it with with dr. Badawi the verse in the Quran is quite clear in chapter 5

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Which indicates that the Quran came to confirm? Whatever remained intact of the scriptures before it and a guardian over it now

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Let's let's stop right there. That's surah 548 now. Let me read the use of folly translation because they're and and here's where I Really really have to to start working hard on my studies for the next number of years because I don't

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Like being dependent upon this I my my Arabic is is still minimal to the point where I don't feel confident even using the lexical sources

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I have to make any final commentary concerning these translations and got to get past that and and working on that, but The translations of the

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Quran at this point are quite different from one another Here's the use of folly translation to thee we sent the scripture in truth

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Confirming the scripture that came before it and guarding it in safety didn't it did you hear Badawi saying concerning?

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What was left intact? There's this whole concept of Corruption and disruption and everything in Badawi's translation to thee we sent the scripture in truth confirming the scripture

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That came before it and guarding it in safety so judged between them by what all I hath revealed and fallen out their vain

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Desires diverging from the truth that hath come to thee now this this idea of guarding it in safety a

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Number of commentaries if you look at the Tafsir literature a number of commentaries at this point about the

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Quran functioning as the corrector and the viewpoint

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Presented by Ali and by Badawi at this point very very common amongst

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Muslims in regards to the idea That you have in the

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Quran this this ability To be able to see what was true in what was left of the scriptures by comparison to the

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Quran So if the Quran says it then that's why it is true today if the Quran doesn't say it or contradicts that then that's the thing

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That's so that's wrong. This this Islamic anachronism is traced back to this this text But the

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Ali version of this does not have anything about the scriptures

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What's left or what's left intact of it or something like that but Picked all translation and unto thee we have revealed the scripture with the truth confirming whatever scripture was before it and a watch over it

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So judge between between them by what by that which Allah hath revealed cetera cetera, so there's nothing there in that however

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Malik has to you o Muhammad we have revealed the book with the truth it confirms whatever has remained intact in The scriptures which came before it and also to safeguard it

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That's there would have to be I would assume some kind of interpretation of some sort of The only the only difference can possibly be it's not a textual difference

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It has to be a translational issue and an extended Interpretation of a particular

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Arabic phrase at this point Assad's translation says and unto thee O Prophet We have vouchsafe vouchsafe this divine writ setting forth the truth confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and Determining what is true therein and so there you have two translations that contain the the concept to that do not and that is interesting to me and certainly an area of further in interpretation

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I looked at a number of the commentaries and the commentaries also take different viewpoints as to Exactly what this text is saying and how this this guarding takes place

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And so that is a issue that has come up in debates if you remember Sam Shamoon's debate with Shabir Ali that came up and within that context as well, and so that is certainly an area of Study that we will be pursuing in the future which means that the

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Muslim approach the Bible with an open mind No, that does not mean the Muslim approach

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It means the Muslim approaches by with a closed mind determined by Only what the

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Quran can possibly allow to be true. It's amazing when someone says We've got an open mind about this

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No You you don't if you're starting with that presupposition you you're not approaching the Bible with an open mind anything in the

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Bible that agrees With the last revelation of Allah the Quran which is well preserved the

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Muslim have no reason to reject it Any other thing that does not agree with that the Muslim was politely but firmly say

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This is likely to be human hand human interpretation may be influence of other ideas that existed

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But I do not in all due respect believe that this is the word of God because the last word of Allah say that this

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Is not the case. So there you have a just a glaring clear obvious example of Islamic anachronism

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Islamic anachronistic exegesis and interpretation of the biblical text and I've been listening to a lot of Dr.

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Badawi's lectures, especially those where he's actually just lecturing to Muslims. I find that to be exceptionally useful

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Listen to what people say to their own groups That's gonna give you a I think more of an insight than what they say only in debate and debate

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You know gives you an idea where they're going but what they actually say their own groups you can then compare that and I would hope that certainly in in my ministry that what you hear me preaching in the church and what you hear me saying in Debate or the same things they should be if they change now

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Don't don't get me wrong. Obviously if I'm if I'm talking to Muslims I'm gonna try to use language the Muslims gonna understand but the substance of what's being said should not change

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You should not have Arguments that are designed to defend may be an easier position than that which you actually hold in your normal teaching

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And your normal preaching type of a type of situation And this is not only a Muslim view if you check for example, the

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New Catholic Encyclopedia See, I really think that Shabir got a lot of his use

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Liberal sources type argumentation from Battaway. I think it's where it came

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New Catholic Encyclopedia and it is indicated there that there is a dispute as to whether every word that says

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Jesus said this Indeed was said by him or not And of course you could then go to all sorts of orientalist sources that dispute everything about the

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Quran but they of course dismiss that and don't recognize that Well Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument or it was put into his mouth

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So biblical scholars themselves raise a very serious question about even the verbatim words attributed to Jesus.

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Peace be upon him So with these two reservations I'm only referring to this not by way of accepting that Jesus indeed say that But to say that even the

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Bible in its present form does not have any conclusive Claim that made was made by Jesus.

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Peace be upon him that he was divine First of all, let us look very quickly at some of the more common verses quoted to us by our

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Christian brethren Now at this point again, I'm listening to this and some folks

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I'm not you know, maybe not all if you're listening to this it obviously interests you some folks are somewhat interested in the the

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Process that I go through in debate preparation and things like that. And when I'm listening to debates, what am

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I specifically listening for? well, obviously I listen as critically as I possibly can and I'm listening with a view to the possibility of a future debate with this individual

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And so I'm listening very very carefully. I want to listen with understanding I want to understand why they're saying what they're saying

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I want to get to the point where I could probably predict what they're gonna say Because I so well understand the foundational presuppositions of their theology or their worldview or things like that.

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All of that's part of it But I'm also listening to find out how well does this person know the position that he's critiquing?

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How is this person going to represent the strongest arguments or is this person going to represent a much less?

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Strong argument that's going to tell me the depth of their own research Can they recognize what the strongest arguments from the other side are if they cannot?

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Then that's going to give me some indication that the individual with whom I am dealing here

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Probably has some great misunderstandings. Now. I have heard dr. Battery lecture a number of times He to this day does not understand the doctrine of the

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Trinity. He does not accurately represent the doctrine of the Trinity He may accurately represent it when reading a creedal statement, but when his criticisms come out, he continues to think that we are modalists

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He continues to think that we're saying one is three and three is one He does not recognize the difference between person and and being and sadly in listening to dr

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Shirosh's Presentation I in response to him. I again was was was very concerned that Many of the strongest biblical arguments were not presented at all a couple were but but most most

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The presentations were not strong at all and there was no explanation of the difference between being in person

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If you're gonna be talking to an Islamic audience, you have to explain those terms Or or they're stuck at that.

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That's at step one with the contradiction between Being in person if you don't explain that I don't know how you can feel like you really accomplished almost anything at all and So that was a little bit troubling, but now we get an opportunity.

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What does he feel? I mean if you're going to have just a few moments and he only has

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I would say here Looking at the waveform maybe about five minutes left in his presentation

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He spent the first majority of the presentation dealing with the Quran the Quran's view of Jesus and things like that Now he's getting to what the

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Bible says if you only have a certain amount of time You're going to want to take on the strongest biblical arguments.

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What does he think the strongest biblical arguments are? And you find this in the second page under What was attributed to Jesus as has said

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That's to a number one It is said that he said I am the way the truth and the life nobody comes unto the father but by me

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John 14 6 well okay, John 14 6 is a extremely important text and The centrality of Christ as the means of approach the father is there and it's certainly

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Different than anything that any other prophet could ever would ever say Moses never said I am the way

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Abraham never said I am the way could not say that I am the way but John 14 6 is really not one of the primary proof texts of the doctrine the deity of Christ But what does that mean really?

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It means that all prophets before him were wrong because he is the only way It means the last prophet after him is no good because he is the only way that would even condemn

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Abraham himself Now, I'm sorry, but that's just facile and illogical argumentation.

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I mean, that's I'm sorry, but that's not good argumentation at all. Is it? You can you can see that you're you're taking even even if we were to argue

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Okay This is a good text of the deity of Christ Which I'm not saying it necessarily is but even if you take the only meaningful way that it can be taken that is

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Christ is So central that these would be words that another prophet could not say that no no prophet before Jesus had ever said this

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Because there is an exclusivity to his terminology. There's he is saying something here that is exclusive and different than anyone else

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That kind of response is irrelevant to that. It doesn't mean that all the other prophets are wrong

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It just means all the other prophets are different because they don't make that claim I mean, you know, so Just just listening when you hear refutations of what they think your position is if the argumentation is really poor might tell you there are some

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Foundational problems in the person's understanding because Abraham was not a follower of Jesus peace be upon him

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Of course some people say no no, but he was living with the anticipation of Abraham. It's a very sort of forced type of interpretation.

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I Think he's referring there to the John 8 passage Abraham saw my day and rejoiced and was glad in it and so on I think that's probably was referring to I don't know he's speaking to equipment at that point really expand on it to know

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I am The way the truth and the life can be easily understood in a sense that every prophet as we believe

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Muslims Is not speaking of his own invention or on behest He is speaking in accordance with the

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Word of God revealed to him. So he is he represents God He speaks for God and as such he is the way that's within the life

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Every prophet is the way and the truth and the life and if it's true Nobody can come unto the father or unto

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God except by following the prophet Because only the prophet of God who receives the revelation is the one who has access to the truth the ultimate truth that Allah gave to him now that would require that we understand

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Jesus words to be something along the lines of I Am showing you the way as a prophet, but that's not what

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Jesus said He said I am the way the truth and the life not I am telling you about the way the truth and the life and again, that's where Cross -examination is absolutely vital because you can throw this stuff out and everybody sits there goes especially they don't know text

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Oh, yeah, it sounds fine. But then you get into cross -examination and you take the person to the text Well, they it doesn't hold up any other way is a false way human theology human philosophy speculation

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They're all wrong except for what the prophet himself to receive that revelation from God So yes, everybody every prophet is the way that's within the life.

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So was Moses. So is Muhammad So if every prophet for that matter, it is again

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Every prophet hey Jonah was the way the truth in life I mean to talk about completely tearing a text out of its context here is here is

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Islamic anachronistic Exit is a Jesus at its at its best an allegorical language.

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Hey, what would Islamic and that I a e

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I a e That's that's what I have to call it. I a a Islamic anachronistic is a

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Jesus try to say that three times fast especially with a Scottish accent Throw in a few glottal stops and rolling are there there's a place

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I a e Islamic anachronistic Anachronistic is a Jesus. Um, nah, I'm not at the very least it will impress your friends that you have any idea

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What the role it means secondly It is said that Jesus said I and the father are one

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John 1030. But what does one miss really mean? Does it mean oneness in essence?

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If that is the case How do we explain the fact that Jesus also addressed his disciple and he said that you are one with me or so that you?

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Be one in me now again, I have I think even disappointed some folks because I have pointed out the

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John 1030 Is often misused by Christians. I have seen it misused and you know by leaders who just assume you can jump to An argument that this means

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I and the father are one in essence So on so forth rather than recognizing that in the context what Jesus is saying is

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That he and the father are one and bring about the salvation of God's people they have the same purpose the same goals if you're in the son's hand and you're in the father's hand and etc, etc and all of That is exegetically certain now it then follows

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That no prophet could have ever said those things no prophet comes along and says

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I and the father are one in bringing about the salvation of God's people in The same type of context you find the gospel of John you have to ignore that context to avoid

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The very high view of Jesus required to be able to understand that context but people need to recognize the difference between just simply quoting a verse and Just jumping into the mindset that says aha

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Here is oneness of essence or something like that and deriving that from a contextual exegesis of the actual

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Emphasis that is found in the original and so you need to be careful. Don't just And I've said many many times when you memorize scripture for use in witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Muslims or whatever

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You can't just memorize a text you need to memorize the text and the proper

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Interpretation of the text you when you present it you have to be able to present it in context

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And I'm gonna tell you I've taken this to the streets in Salt Lake City and Mesa and places like that and when you can

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Demonstrate that what you're saying you're not just going well as the Bible says in John 10 30

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I and the Father are one that people recognize you're just doing the rote memorization thing there

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But when you can provide a context and you can give the context beforehand lead into the text make the application

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You will have a much greater opportunity of controlling the conversation and getting to where you want to go

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I mean, this is just practical witnessing 101. It's it's I've seen it over and over again

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People who have been out with us will will tell you yeah That's that that makes a huge difference and and so we have to be careful about those things and approach in the proper direction now if it is oneness in essence and Jesus and the

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Father are one which means that Jesus is divine like the Father and Then Jesus say to the disciple

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I am you and one then all the disciples are also divine and that included You that at that time though now

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This is a common Jehovah's Witness argument a Jehovah's Witness will will respond to the oneness argument by saying well

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Jesus said disciples you and me and I and you and one you're one in me and things like that and assume that the context is the same now you could argue the context are not the same and Could not be the same given the the nature of Christ and nature of disciples and stuff

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But that's one of the reasons I don't go here. Anyways One of the reasons I wouldn't use this as the argumentation to begin with is because it it does take a

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Excessive amount of time to try to lay the various foundations and and avoid the various pitfalls

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To be able to communicate the concept and who betrayed him obviously nobody can have that an impossible type of interpretation

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But one is here if you read it in the context of John that nobody can pluck I know my my people nobody can pluck them of my hand because I and the father are one

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We are one in purpose We are one in spirituality and that term is not very strange to Muslims in one of the

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Qudsi Hadith that Muslim side It says that Allah speaks and says or at least you communicate or narrate through Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in a

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Hadith That my servant keep getting closer and closer to me By extra or additional act of worship and devotion until I love him and when

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I love him Allah says I will be the eyes with which he sees The ears with which he sees the tongue with which he speaks the hands with which he does things the legs with ritual

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But no Muslim has ever interpreted that or understood it to mean that God become in me that I become divine

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But it means that I speak the word of truth as Allah ordains me. I see the truth clearly without confusion as Allah Guided me.

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I hear the word of truth and it gets to my heart I do things with my hand at my legs only in accordance with the will of Allah It's not a very strange terminology.

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I and the father are one the spiritual communion. It doesn't mean divinity. Well probably could have skipped over that but so far none of the strongest texts

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Granville sharp constructions or the use of the name Jehovah of Jesus or none of that's even been touched so far

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Then we are told that whoever has seen me. He has seen the father We know that the word see does not mean see with the eye

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If you close your eye and say something to you and say do you see you could close your I think I see what you

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Say I see I understand. I know and Both the Old Testament and New Testament says and you have the references to that that nobody has ever seen

34:26

God or heard his voice Except you have John 118 which you might want to deal with but he doesn't do we are told that he said before Abraham I am

34:39

Finally finally, we've got the I am sayings. Oh, yes We've got the

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I am saying so what kind of in -depth response to the consistent utilization of ago I mean the gospel of John John 13 19 and 18 5 through 6 and and Of course 824 and 858.

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What are we going to hear? Well, if one wanted to be very literal and say that means he's eternal and divine Then he did not say before Adam.

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So he's not divine just before Abraham So Okay, so before Abraham was

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I am and so you're going to assume that if it doesn't say before Adam was

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That the I am is no longer the same I am the honor who in Hebrew that's found in Isaiah and the minor prophets and and This explains why when

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Gia says it go I mean to the soldiers they fall back upon the ground and and why in 824 when he when he's when he says unless you believe

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I am you will Die in your sins and and why in 1319 you have Jesus drawing from from Isaiah 43 10 applying to himself the divine name

35:42

That explains all that. No, and in fact, it makes me wonder if dr. Battery is even aware of any of that I don't get the feeling that he is and in fact to be honest with I've not encountered a single

35:54

Islamic apologist that seems to be aware of those things that that just means that they may not be the ones that get their mp3s posted on the net

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But I haven't heard anything about that And even if it says before Adam the angels were created before Adam if you really want to be very literal in that meaning

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That word before sometimes as you know could also mean ahead of more important then so before Abraham was

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Means I'm more important than Abraham as if that somehow would result in the

36:22

Jewish response in John 8 58 Here you have a clear example of just taking a text.

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You've heard it used in a certain way and attacking that rather than Doing interestingly enough what he did with John 10.

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He put it in the context and Said you know about snatching out of the hands here He doesn't do that because he really can't because the context doesn't help his case

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But even if you take it sequentially before Abraham, there is a very simple answer to that Yes all of us before Abraham and before Adam we existed

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Because all of us existed in the knowledge of God before the earth even was created

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So now he's going now he's now he's saying well before Abraham So if he existed before Abraham, then all that means is we all existed before Abraham Everybody existed because God knew we were going to going to exist

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Where have we heard that one before you'd have to have listened to one of my less well -known debates

37:14

The debate that I did with dr. Sabin the oneness Pentecostal scholar who likewise dismissed any

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Pre -existence text in regards to Jesus is simply saying as the son rather than as the father

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Well, that's just simply existing in knowledge. God knew that so everything is said about Jesus eternal pre -existence

37:36

Could have been said about anybody else is the same type of argumentations being presented here Hadith also of Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam that he was there not before Abraham Before Adam even came to being but no

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Muslim has ever insisted that hadith to mean that Prophet Muhammad It was eternal or was co -existent with God it means that the knowledge of his creation was in the mind or the

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Knowledge you shouldn't use the word mind in the knowledge of God even before the earth was created six or five

38:15

We are told also that Jesus peace be upon him accepted worship when they say and they worshiped him and we all know that the term worship does not necessarily dealing with someone and Accepting him as God and the sole creator of heavens and earth

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Now here we get pretty much exactly the Jehovah's Witness argument pretty much here

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You're gonna get exactly what you get the doorstep Down at the down at the grocery store the

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Kingdom Hall wherever you might be. This is you're gonna get it You're gonna get it now And in fact interestingly enough.

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This is the same argument. I've gotten from Roman Catholics about Worship in regards to bowing down prayer, etc.

38:56

Etc Same same type of thing is rather than going to the original languages now

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There are Jehovah's Witnesses who will go to the original languages. They'll talk about prosecute now. They'll talk about Latreau They'll talk about things like that, but your general

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Jehovah's Witness is not going to do that kind of thing Muslims not gonna do that kind of thing If they're if they're good

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If they're good Jehovah's Witnesses, they'll go to prosecute now Oh, then they'll take you to places where prosecuting that was used of man -to -man of a situation where you know a

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Person who is in greater authority is bowed down to and say ah see it doesn't mean that that they're just looking at Jesus having

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A greater authority than they have or something along those it's a sign of respect they'll ignore the religious context because clearly in Revelation for example when when

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John bows down when he tries to prosecute now Oh give give that form of worship the angel the angel says do not do that I'm a fellow servant stand up when someone tries to prosecute

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Oh Peter He says don't do that prosecute Oh God only and so in religious context

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This is only to be given to God and that's the context in which it's given to Jesus and he accepts it So you got to deal with that, but these groups the

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Jehovah's Witnesses know that they don't want to deal with that You don't want to deal with stuff that contradicts your beliefs And so you try to avoid that and that's where we're gonna get here to worship also means intense love or respect

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I am sure some of you who might watch TV programs on City Council meeting Somebody might address the mayor as your worship

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It doesn't mean worship by way of believing him to be the creator of heavens and earth now obviously 20th century

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English usage based upon Old English and your worship or whatever is

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Utterly and completely irrelevant to the point and if someone turned that around About an

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Arabic phrase he'd be the first one to notice it so here you have double standards being utilized clear inconsistency

40:51

Inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument furthermore throughout the New Testament. We are told that Jesus himself worshiped

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God Okay and Immediately again Jehovah's Witnesses will do that too well How can he be

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God if he worships someone else that doesn't actually answer the problem does it? I mean if worship is to be given to God alone and Jesus receives worship and Your position will not allow

41:14

Jesus to receive worship, then you got a problem You've got to explain that but but Jesus does worship the

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Father And why does that cause a problem for for a Muslim and for a Jehovah's Witness? Very clear both begin with the assumption of Unitarianism both begin with the assumption that God is unity is one person rather than one being

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Unitarian in existence rather than Trinitarian and so again you go back to the scriptures say well look

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Yes, you're right Jesus worships the Father and I'm right that Jesus accepts worship the only way to put those two things together is to recognize what the

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Bible says about the Incarnation that the eternal word became flesh That's the only way to put these things together either that or you end up being a henotheist a polytheist

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You know whatever other things and you got throughout other ports of the Bible Then you go those portions of Bible say no it doesn't allow that either.

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That's how you engage the debate When you have the opportunity anyways of doing so if Jesus was

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God did he worship himself Did you catch that did he worship himself now? How many times have we heard more missionaries and and 14 year old kids?

42:26

Dr.. Badawi is a professional theologian. He teaches in the Academy He should at least have an understanding of what

42:34

Christians believe about the doctrine the Trinity in the existence of three divine persons But he just simply says no one has ever been able to explain the

42:42

Trinity so he dismisses it As if you know very very very much along the same lines as what you what you hear from Ahmed D dots and and people like that and since bowed down and Put on his face in humility and worship his creator and the creator of all number six

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Some say that Jesus was called the Son of God, but some say Now what you're about to hear is the same argumentation that it was utilized by Victor Paul We're will now most people today have never heard of Victor Paul We're well unless you're a student of religious history or something you've never heard of Victor Paul We're Victor Paul.

43:19

We're will was the founder of the way international And it was a cult in the in the historic used the term cult and He put out some books attacking the deity of Christ and and the things like that one of his big arguments

43:34

Against the deity of Christ was he would take The number of times Jesus called God or Son of God and Son of Man and he had him all up and if he's called

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Son of Man more often. He's called Son of God. Then he's a son of man. He's not son of God Now that's absurd argumentation on its face

43:51

The number of what it assumes of course to make that kind of an argument have any meaning You would have to assume that not only is the

43:58

Bible grossly self -contradictory But that the title that is used most often is the only proper title that can be used

44:06

The only proper description you can't describe someone with more than one title now now of course given the 99 names of Allah It's a little bit inconsistent for a

44:17

Muslim to be utilizing an argument like this Would he accept the argument that if Allah is called merciful more often than he's called powerful that means he's merciful

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But he's not powerful of course not but that would be the conclusion of the form of argumentation

44:32

He's using here when he's gonna. Tell us that Jesus is called Son of Man more often He's called Son of God therefore. He's not truly the

44:38

Son of God Actually if you look carefully you will find that the most frequent term at least put in the mouth of Jesus If he didn't say it himself

44:46

Even if he said it was not the Son of God go to the Bible and find it It is the Son of Man not the

44:53

Son of God the Son of Man again, so What does that mean? I mean the fundamental argument is well

45:00

Jesus never said this of himself We're just going to attack the validity of the scriptures and so on so forth which again

45:05

You can just turn around say well You know I don't think that that Muhammad ever said this either, and I've got just as much evidence as you do so How you know?

45:14

Where's the consistency at that point? But even suppose that some people called Jesus Son of God or that he consented to be named

45:22

Son of God It has to be related to the context of the Old Testament in the Old Testament Son of God never meant a divine being at all

45:30

Because Abraham was called Son of God Adam was called Son of God so was David so was

45:36

Solomon So was Israel these were all called sons of God as one scholar once put it

45:41

God had sons by the tons now um yay By the way someone's asking about what happened the way international every cult

45:50

To survive has to have a strong second generation leader Joseph Smith had Brigham Young You know

45:57

Charles Taze Russell has Judge Rutherford and and you've got to have a strong Second generation leader to keep a cult together and Victor Paul we're will did not have a strong second generation leader therefore

46:09

It's split up into into dozens of little tiny groups There are still some what are called twig fellowships on college campuses here there and everywhere

46:18

There's still people who promote a we're will stuff, but they're they're pretty small group Now the argumentation that was just being presented again

46:27

Why do you put this in the context of the Old Testament Given that in the context of the

46:33

New Testament in John chapter 19 We have a law and by us law he had to die because he made himself out to be the

46:38

Son of God How did the Jews understand the phrase Son of God? They know the new test they know both the what

46:44

Jesus was saying and the Old Testament context And they recognized that the language she is used of Jesus as his father in a unique way look at John chapter 5 my father

46:53

Is working into now and I am working the Jews seek to kill him why because he made God in his own father

46:59

Making himself equal with God so why? Jump back to a completely different context well because he's wrong

47:07

And he can't deal with the actual context in which the terminology is found never in the

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Hebrew tradition the word Son of God was Meant to mean God or somebody who is co -eternal or a person was co -eternal with the fathers

47:22

Never interpreted this way in fact David was called the begotten Son of God in some cases you notice that the word only son is not used literally in the

47:32

Bible For example when the come to the story of sacrifice And it says take your only son either either was never the only time because Ishmael was there already 14 years before So even the term only son sometimes does not mean the only son that has been born to you

47:47

But only means the most beloved a certain exaggeration of love or relationship But does well monogamous certainly has that meaning of unique and special one ruling

47:58

Yeah, it has all that all that in it But it does not follow that that substantiates battle ease

48:05

Misrepresentation of the New Testament context of the utilization the phrase son of God mean divinity at all Seven Some people said that he called

48:13

God's father or Abba which is a sort of even intimate But again as you see in references both from the

48:19

Old and New Testament. This is applied also to other human beings now Jesus is used the term

48:25

Abba is one of the strongest evidences of his deity Again, we why aren't we hearing about Granville Sharp constructions?

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Why aren't we hearing about John 12 or Hebrews 1 or or Jesus as the creator of all things?

48:38

These are the texts that one should be hearing from but but we're not Messiah or anointed

48:43

Messiah is Messiah in Arabic Messiah in Hebrew anointed in English That is the somebody chosen for an office or like the custom of anointing with oil prophets or people chosen for certain or kings or whatever and The term itself does not mean divinity for even

48:59

Cyrus was called Messiah Again I wouldn't argue that single term just just the use the term

49:07

Messiah is Anywhere near one of the strongest arguments of the deity of Christ in some cases We find that the term

49:12

Messiah even is used in plural like Savior. So example is used in plural in the book of Abba Daya and The question of Savior again does not mean

49:23

Divinity for we believe that all prophets were saviors They saved their people from darkness and led them unto light

49:31

From disbelief in God into believing God So in that sense all prophets were saviors Not the meaning that was attached later saving through the blood and paying for the sins of mankind of course that would require again the complete rejection of the consistency and Textual history of the

49:47

New Testament to even begin to come up with the idea that they use the term So tear of Jesus is meant to be paralleled with With any kind of a prophet functioning as one who guides them in the right way 11 or 10

50:04

That he was called Lord Koryos, okay. This is this good one now what we should hear if this is a scholarly response and a knowledgeable one is

50:14

Some discussion of the use the term Koryos in the Greek septuagint as the normative rendering of the tetragrammaton yodhey wow hey

50:22

The fact that many times when the Old Testament is being cited and it's talking about Jehovah God Yahweh It's being applied to Jesus the term

50:31

Koryos is used All those things should come up in this response, right?

50:39

And we all know that the word Lord while in certain context is used to mean God Oftentimes it is used in the

50:46

Hebrew scripture to mean teacher or rabbi And if we were to take the word

50:51

Lord as an evidence of divinity Then in Britain there is a house, which is full of God the house of Lord I'm sorry, but again that this is this is considered to be top -flight argumentation and You know and if if someone like Shabir Ali listens, and I know that she barely does listen once in a while You've you've got to understand.

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This is not in any way shape or form convincing To knowledgeable Christians it really really isn't just as a lot of the shallow

51:26

Stuff that you hear about Islam from Christians isn't convincing to you gotta understand this this is what leaves people going

51:32

You know this guy just really isn't showing us a whole lot of respect by actually knowing what the world we're talking about You know they drink tea in Britain, too

51:40

Yes, they do then that's something I would probably just disprove the whole thing

51:46

Thanks, rich. Just wake up Just just woke up and caught that one

51:52

Yeah, the house of Lords is I know I've heard it I've heard Roman Catholics use that I've heard

51:58

Roman Catholics uses the argument about about I pray thee in English usage and Shakespeare being relevant to whether their veneration of saints and angels is idolatry

52:08

I've actually heard that so it's not just oh those those silly Muslims have come up with silly arguments

52:14

Hey, no, it doesn't doesn't require you to be Muslim to come up with a silly argument lots of other people have done the same thing

52:20

Eleven that he was filled with the Holy Spirit as I mentioned also Which is similar to what the

52:26

Quran says he was guided or supported with the Holy Spirit Well, I would how is this a argument of Christ not sure we certainly didn't get even

52:36

This the semblance the beginning of a meaningful response the use of courios And it's it's significance in the

52:45

Greek septuagint and things like that and now we're getting sent about the Holy Spirit But again, we find that according to the gospel

52:51

According to Mark that even John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother not even after he was born in the womb of his mother

53:01

It is important. I think this point for you to recognize. Why do Muslims find this kind of argumentation we might chuckle

53:08

But you chuckle because you understand the Bible you chuckle because you've read the Bible These men are primarily lecturing the people who've never ever ever cracked the binding of a

53:18

Bible and So all they've got to do is make a coherent communicative case in a

53:29

Muslim mindset and they can depend upon The ignorance of their audience

53:37

To make the arguments work and that's why the Muslim says it goes wow this oh, man He's that's just that's just overwhelming how anyone can believe in the

53:44

Trinity after something like that. I can't even begin to believe and That's what you're dealing with.

53:49

Now. How do you break through that? Well, it's not it's not always possible I mean, obviously there's no mechanism that allows you to break through that without the work of the

53:58

Spirit in someone's heart but at the same time in responding you have to keep that in mind you can't just assume a

54:05

Level of biblical knowledge in the part of the Muslim audience you have to bring that knowledge to them as a part of your presentation

54:10

Which is exceptionally challenged Barnabas according to the book of Acts was a man Also, who was filled with the

54:16

Holy Spirit neither of these were claimed to be divine Something that he said

54:23

My words will not pass away and this is not the language of a man. It is the language of God Well the fact that Jesus basically utilizes and in essence claims

54:34

Equal authority with the God who revealed the Old Testament. Yes, that would be a relevant assertion

54:39

I explained briefly some aspect of this quotation last night That actually in the context of that and the context when he said that perhaps he was referring to His word or his prophecy that his followers will be persecuted and that the temple will be destroyed that this

54:57

Prophecy is bound to happen. But in any case suppose even it did not mean that for the sake of discussion

55:03

We will see shortly that there is additional evidence to show that the word uttered by Jesus Peace be upon him is the

55:10

Word of God revealed to him So when he says allegorically my words It doesn't mean my words my invention the word that I uttered to you as revealed to me from God shall not pass away because it

55:19

Came from God. Now again, this is the common way of getting around anything When when you talk to a

55:26

Mormon and point out that Jesus identifies himself as as Jehovah Elohim and that there is no you can't make a distinction between Jehovah and Elohim the way that Mormonism does what a

55:35

Mormon say Well Jesus is speaking Representationally there for the father and here you have well

55:42

He's actually just talking about the word which he is It's not really his word It's somebody else's word type of thing and you ignore the context of how people would have heard this in The context which

55:53

Jesus originally speaking invented it was revealed to me So it is my word as I speak of it, but the origin is

55:59

God and the Word of God will not Will pass will not pass away Then they say that Thomas the doubter called him my

56:07

Lord and my God Now here we go here we have

56:12

John 2028 here we have an actual Argument here.

56:18

We have an actual text and what are you gonna hear? You're gonna hear the standard bad

56:23

Jehovah's Witness response You're not gonna hear anything exegetical. You're not gonna hear anybody actually dealing with the text

56:30

He would demand this if we were quoting the Quran. Oh, yes, he would But that's not what you're gonna hear in this context and my god

56:39

Again, there are a number of questions raised here Is it possible that Thomas said my lord

56:44

Jesus and he was so surprised to see him So he said and my god the creator of Jesus With that's the

56:51

Jehovah's Witness argument. My lord. My god Does the grammar allow that nope doesn't he answered and said to him

57:02

Hakuri Asumu Kai Hatha Asumu My lord and my god both are addressed to the same individual.

57:08

You cannot break the phrase up That's a violation of the language. If you did that you fail the test.

57:13

Okay all there is to it bad argument Don't know you could argue one way or the other No, you could not argue it one way or the other while there are numerous

57:23

Arabic phrases in the Quran that can be argued one way or the other You can't do that with Greek and you can't do that in this context

57:33

Oh, even if you meant my lord and my god literally speaking this does not even prove divinity

57:39

What this does not prove divinity? It doesn't matter someone called Jesus God the

57:44

Quran says he isn't so he ain't It doesn't matter how clear it is it doesn't matter how compelling it is it can't mean that because Look, let's just be honest.

57:58

I shouldn't even be bothering to deal with the Bible because I don't believe the Bible I believe the Quran I believe what the

58:03

Quran says and so all this stuff's really irrelevant It doesn't matter what the text is because even if it does come out and say

58:09

Jesus is God I'm just gonna reject that that was actually written by original follower of Jesus and it was corrupted over time

58:16

Anyway, well there you get I think a real good sense of the kind of argumentation and where these where where are

58:22

Muslims gain? They're kind of arguing, you know, Jamal Badawi is considered one of the top flight Islamic scholars

58:28

He teaches in university and and all these things and that's where it's coming from there there you heard

58:33

I actually wasn't gonna spend that much time, but that's normally how things go I was gonna get to the other debate, but we'll get there too.

58:40

We'll be back on Thursday afternoon Lord willing You're on the dividing line. See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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