April 5, 2022 Show with Ed Boyle & Keith Foskey on “Transforming Formerly Liberal Churches”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of April 2022.

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And today I have a first -time guest and also a returning guest.

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The first hour, we have the honor and privilege of featuring Ed Boyle, minister of Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, and in the second hour we will have my friend

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Keith Foskey, who is one of three pastors at Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida.

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They're both going to be addressing the same theme, transforming churches formally in liberal denominations for the glory of Christ Jesus and his gospel of sovereign grace.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Ed Boyle.

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Thanks for having me on, Chris. An honor to be here. And first of all, tell us about Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, and I know that one of the reasons you are on the program today discussing transforming churches formally in liberal denominations for the glory of Christ Jesus and his gospel of sovereign grace is that this church at one time was a member congregation in one of the most liberal, if not leftist, and even apostate denominations within so -called

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Protestantism, the United Church of Christ, and it really rivals the far -left denomination, the

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Unitarian Universalist Church. But tell us about the

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Trinity Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania today, and then we'll get into the actual transformation of the congregation in just a little bit.

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Sure, Chris. The church here at Trinity Christian Church in the borough of New Bloomfield in south -central

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Pennsylvania is a small congregation. It's an older facility.

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There's a stone out front that says German Reformed 1856 as part of it, and it was an addition put on about 20 -something years ago, a little over 20.

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And the church had split off from the United Church of Christ about a year before I got here, so I was in my third and final year of seminary.

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As you know, Chris, as friends, I had retired from the Army, went to seminary for three years in St. Louis, third year of seminary.

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I was looking, and of course there was no market out there for a former Army guy with no previous pastoral experience, so my pastor, he sent me a link.

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He said, hey, there's some churches that belong to some previously liberal denominations. They're kind of looking for a voice, and so I want you to take a look and see what you think.

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I said, sure, I'll look. And so I looked, and I'm a native Pennsylvanian. I saw this church, their self -description.

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One thing led to another, and I was called to the pastorate here in late July, end of July 2017.

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Right now, our church is about, we average probably about 40 -ish thereabouts. A number of folks had left when the church left the

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UCC, and then some more folks left after I arrived, based on me and my preaching of the word here,

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I think, and some other folks left a little bit later with some other disagreements. I guess we'll get to that here in a few minutes, but we've got some folks who came here who have become members in the last couple of years with all the

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COVID madness going on, other church closures, and I think not everyone realized there was actually a

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Reformed church right here in the middle of Perry County, and here we are.

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It hadn't been before Reformed, but truly Reformed, theologically, just a name only, but here we are.

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And ironically, the denomination, the United Church of Christ, if you go back far enough, it was a thoroughly

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Reformed, in fact, a Puritan denomination. Most churches that you see with the name

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Congregationalist Church are from, or used to be from, the

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United Church of Christ, and the Congregational churches initially were Puritan churches, and what a tragedy to see how far they have devolved and become so theologically corrupt and doctrinally bankrupt.

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It's just such a tragedy to see a movement which began with such biblical purity and now becoming, for lack of a better term for the most part, synagogues of Satan.

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Yeah, that's exactly right, Chris, and I think, well, when you look at Trinity here itself, that was the merger, as you stated, the

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Congregational Christian church merged with Evangelical and Reformed church to become basically the

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United Church of Christ in 1957, and that's when this church, I believe, officially joined the

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UCC at that point, but they did have German Reformed roots on one side, and then on the other side, the

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Congregational church, as you mentioned, which had initially flourished in the New England and Mid -Atlantic states, had its roots in Puritanism, but it didn't take too long before that to become corrupted.

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I think sometimes we forget those are not just historical forces at work, but the enemy is also at work, constantly seeking to subvert the purity of the gospel.

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Yeah, and we can even look at the major Ivy League schools here in the

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United States that began as Puritan seminaries and now are far, far from that, such a tragedy.

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Even as recent as the 19th century, Princeton was a fine institution and had such faculty members as B .B.

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Warfield, and now you have absolutely horrifying things being taught by some of the faculty there, just absolutely astonishing and satanic.

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Now, of course, I don't want to act as if there are no Christians present there.

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I'll have to be very careful, but it is definitely a far, far cry from what it once was in its heyday, and the corruption began in the early 20th century, which is why

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J. Gresham Machen eventually founded Westminster Theological Seminary. Exactly, but then even new organizations, such as Westminster, later

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Covenant, later RTS on the RTS campus, etc., etc., we can go on down the line, consistently began with the best of intentions, good and godly men involved, but even at their beginning, the enemy was seeking ways to subvert them.

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It just starts with little compromises here and there. We see it in seminaries, we see it in denominations, we see it in individual churches.

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It starts with the incremental encroachment of a small, seemingly innocuous compromise on the authority of Scripture.

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Well, we have a tradition here, Pastor Ed, that whenever we have a first -time guest, and you are one, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of theological or religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances raised up in that person's life that the

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Lord in His sovereignty used to draw them to Himself and save them. So, let's hear an abbreviation of your story.

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An abbreviation for my story? I come from a family, a long line of Irish Catholics, all the way back from time immemorial in County Donegal in Ireland, and a family of coal miners, me and my brothers in the first generation.

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Not to work the mines here in B .A., the anthracite mines, the hard coal mines, since Patrick Boyle came over to Philadelphia in 1848 in the heels of the

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Great Hunger. So, Dad was Irish Catholic, he was a World War II veteran. He became increasingly convicted by the

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Holy Spirit about some of the inconsistencies in unbiblical practices in Roman Catholicism, the church that he loved and grew up in.

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And so, when he started questioning things, it didn't go over well with the family. And when he pulled us out of the

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Catholic church, of course, it was practically scandalous, because we weren't simply

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Catholic, we were Irish Catholic, very much a cultural issue for us. And Dad had seemingly gone over to the orange from the green.

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But Dad fell into this, like I said, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and repented, and was born again.

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Praise God, this is something that I'm learning for the first time about your father. And he, despite the opposition from his family and friends that he'd grown up with, he felt like this is the

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Holy Spirit, and this is God speaking, so I can't be afraid of what anybody else is going to think about it. It's a matter of conscience between me and the

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Lord. And so, he saw that, and he wanted to take his family out of it as well, and so we did.

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And also, I was just a wee slip of a lad in the Philadelphia area there that had become disabled on the railroad in South Philly, and so we moved back up to the cold regions in Northumberland County, in Locust Gap, where Dad was born and raised, then to Sunbury.

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And we began to, Dad wasn't sure where to go, and so we just started going to some evangelical churches, and that's where I came to Saving Faith at the age of eight.

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And so, what we wound up being in, though, from there we moved to South Carolina, and eventually back to Sunbury.

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We spent a few years in South Carolina. But basically, independent, fundamental Baptist, King James only, very dispensational.

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A lot of people who genuinely love the Lord, but I think a bit misguided in some of their dispensational theology.

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Yes, it's interesting how, and I don't mean to disparage the group that identifies themselves as independent, fundamentalist

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Baptist. I have many dear friends in that movement that I actually enjoy their friendship even today.

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But it's interesting how they cling to a phrase and concept of the old -time religion.

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And one of the reasons that you and I would have disagreement with them is we know that their religion, at least the unique aspects of it that involve dispensationalism and some other things, is not nearly as old as they think.

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In fact, it's hardly more than 160 years old. Right. Yeah, exactly.

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At the time, of course, we didn't know that. In the 70s and 80s, you had the heyday of the late great planet Earth, and the year 2000 approaching, and so the raptures can happen any time, and the millenniums after that, and all sorts of things.

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Anyway, I was learning and growing, but I spent several years of just basically walking away from the Lord. I was enchanted by the things of the world.

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I look back, and I mourn and grieve those days, but the Lord and His sovereign grace and mercy never let me go.

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And so I was in the Army, and I met my wonderful wife, and after we got married, we began—I wasn't attending church anywhere for a time.

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And anyway, the Lord continued to work on me, and as we began to have children, and I realized,

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I need to raise my children in the fear of the Lord. The faith of my childhood that I know is true. It was during the 90s, beginning of the mid to late 90s,

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I really began becoming convinced of what I later would understand to be Reformed theology, but just the idea of the complete and total sovereignty of God in all things, from the beginning of the scriptures to the end, from the beginning of history to the end.

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And even though I kind of kicked and bucked against the idea of election and predestination,

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I couldn't escape that it was taught throughout the scriptures. And so finally, I just came to the understanding, the realization that this exalts and honors

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God rather than exalting man's role in salvation. And so once I began to understand that more clearly,

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I just began to embrace that, so much more of the scripture made sense to me than I'd ever had before.

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It was just simply God's sovereign decision -making in the affairs of men and of nations. And so I continued my

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Army career several times. I wondered if I should just get out, finish off in the Reserve, something like that.

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I used to ask chaplains in the Army, and it happens that you become a chaplain, even though I never really thought it would be anything

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I would do. My last year in the Army, I just asked my wife, I said, I'm really just feeling this call potentially to pastoral ministry.

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What do you think? She thought it was a wonderful thing, so I applied. She thought about me applying to Covenant Theological Seminary, which was my last duty assignment.

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I had to survive major spinal surgery just to stay in the Medical Evaluation Board, just to stay in. I was very limited physically as to what

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I could do, but we were stationed in southwest Illinois, about 20 minutes from St.

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Louis. I applied to Covenant Theological Seminary. I was accepted, and three years later, or in late my third year,

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I was called a pastor here. Not a church that I ever thought I would have been pastoring. I was kind of an older seminarian.

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Obviously, I'd been in the Army for 25 years. Now, what was it that drew you to Covenant Theological Seminary? I'm assuming that you came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as Reformed Theology or Calvinism, but prior to that?

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As far as Covenant specifically, I think part of it was location, is that we were there, and I was aware of Covenant.

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Now, at the time, I'm not a PCA guy, so I'm non -denominational at heart.

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Trinity here is non -denominational, conservative and Reformed, but I wasn't aware of all the nuances of some of the undercurrents of some of what was going on within the

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PCA at the time. It was a Reformed Seminary, the flagship seminary of the

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PCA. It became strongly highly recommended from some of the folks around me, some of the area pastors. I felt the

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Lord's call, and I applied. We didn't have to move. I think the Lord arranged things where we could simply attend without having to move a group of family.

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We could stay there. My wife tutored dyslexic children at the

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Children's Dyslexia Center of Southern Illinois at the time. She was able to continue doing that, just a wonderful thing that she was able to do.

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It really impacted a lot of kids. But that's how I wound up at Covenant, and I knew

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I'd get strong Reformed theological teaching, at least. Now, how did you come to initially embrace the doctrines of Reformed theology?

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I think, you know, I have questions of my pastor. We were stationed at West Point, New York for a time, an hour north of where you were living in Long Island, Chris.

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Yeah, I've actually visited the chapel there. Okay, yeah, a beautiful old chapel building there.

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And we were going to a church, independent fundamental Baptist church, down the road a piece, and I was asking my pastor,

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I had questions about election and predestination. I was just stumped on some of this, and it's because it just didn't seem, of course, the

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F word, it didn't seem fair. And so, God's sovereignty over these things, and it wasn't me making the decision for Christ like I had been raised bread and buttered in churches to believe.

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It was all about making a decision for Christ. And we spoke for a bit, and then he recommended a book to me, a small paperback, called

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Chosen by a God by a guy named R .C. Sproul. I said, you know, I've heard of Sproul. I don't really know anything about him.

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He said, yeah, get that book and just tell me what you think, and if you have some questions, come back and talk to me. So I did.

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I didn't go back to talk to him about it. I wrestled with this back and forth with some others, and I ran into a couple of chaplains who were

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Reformed, one at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. He had actually attended Princeton Theological Seminary. He's a conservative, but he knew just how liberal

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Princeton had become. But he had a solid, what he felt was an education there anyway, because he understood where they were coming from at this point with their theological liberalism, and he had a filter for it.

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My last duty assignment in Germany in Bomberg had several Reformed chaplains in one place. It was remarkable. I had never had something like that, some strong chaplains in different battalions and got to be good friends with these guys.

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And so I continued to read, and I continued to devour the scriptures, read it through over and over and over in my

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Bible, and it was just really, it was the Bible that changed. It was the Lord using his own word to change me.

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But I would read and study. I got a bunch of scrolls, teaching series, first on cassette, then on CD, and a number of books, and I just began to read and read and read, and on Spurgeon and others, and Luther, and it was inescapable.

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So it became a joy rather than something to come to reluctantly. It became truly a joy, that it was the

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Lord using his word to speak. Now, since the theme is involving the transformation of churches formally in liberal denominations, what was it that compelled those members of that United Church of Christ congregation where you are now pastoring?

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What was it that was the stated reasons to you as to why these men and women desired to no longer associate with that denomination?

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It's interesting to me. Over the years, I have known of certain individuals and congregations that had a similar experience where they were in a liberal congregation, or in a congregation,

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I should say, in a liberal denomination. And even those among them that would not be reliably considered truly regenerate, they are just folks that have been raised in an atmosphere of biblical moral principles.

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And they have a worldview that would have been more dominant in the last century and the earlier half of the last century.

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But some of these folks, as I said, some of these folks that I have met and had conversations with, their desire to depart from some of these liberal denominations is because of the extreme lengths that these denominations in the 21st century have gone to to oppose biblical

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Christianity. The extreme desire to welcome unrepentant homosexuals into their midst, and not only welcome them into their midst and tolerate them, but to celebrate them and ordain them into the ministry.

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And the pro -abortion stance, the lust for blood that many in the left have to murder children.

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That may seem like a bit of hyperbole there, but I don't believe it is at all. So some of the folks, especially if they are an older group of people, their sensibilities are shocked by these things.

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And even if they're not truly children of God, they still have a

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Romans 1 instinct about these things that makes them frightened and repulsed.

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Yeah, Chris, you're right here. And here's the thing with regard to Trinity here.

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They formally left UCC sometime in 2016, about over a year before they called me.

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But in the interim, they called a guy to do pulpit supply who wound up becoming more or less their interim pastor here.

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And a great man of God, actually, in the Lord's providence, he sent a man from Carlisle, Mark Bowles, you may know him.

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And Mark is strongly Reformed, and he preached the word, expository preaching, preaching from the scriptures.

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And that was a new thing here, actually being taught by the preacher on a

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Sunday morning from the Bible, not just like a short lesson story, things of that nature, or just more of morality stories.

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I mean, Mark actually did expository preaching here. And he really, as we would say in the Army, he prepped the battlefield for me.

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And so they were more accustomed to this now. And one of the folks on the search committee, a wonderful lady, who's still here, and her support has been just immeasurable for us here.

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I still thank the Lord for her all the time, Margie. But she let them know that, hey, we need to continue in this vein with Reformed theology, and this is what the

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Bible teaches. She was a really strong influence in that area. And so I think, honestly, for one thing, the

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Army, they were desperate. Chris, who else would hire a knucklehead like me?

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Knucklehead Mick from Eastern PA. But so one gentleman had declined, and the guy before that had accepted, and then he declined later.

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And so they were spinning their wheels a little bit. And so I did a Skype interview from Illinois. They asked me to come out here and preach to a candidate, and I did.

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And three weeks later, they called me, and we moved out that summer. And it was kind of a whirlwind there for a while. I hadn't yet finished seminary and gone through an ordination phase.

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But part of the reason, it was very much an older congregation when I arrived here. Part of the reason that I understood that they left the

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UCC, I talked to a number of the folks here, was that they described themselves as conservative.

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But like many churches like this, filled with what we would call cultural Christians, not necessarily true believers, but some believers, but overwhelmingly cultural

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Christians is, when they say they're conservative, they mean they vote Republican. And they have generally conservative moral values.

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God, country, apple pie. And so, I mean, that's how they look at a conservative. Theological conservatism is a whole different matter.

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And that was a foreign concept, I think, for a time. And that's, I think, what disturbed a lot of people through my preaching, especially.

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In fact, could you pick up right where you left off there? Because we have to go to our first break right now. Yeah, sure.

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If anybody wants to join us with a question for Ed Boyle, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are someone in a liberal congregation or a congregation in a liberal denomination, and you'd like to see your congregation depart from that apostate body, and you don't want to, at this point, draw attention to yourself.

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You might be a congregation member, or you might even be a pastor. We would understand. Reasons like that would compel you to be anonymous.

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But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence.

25:25

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. The entire program today is dedicated to the theme of two men who are pastoring churches that were formerly in liberal denominations, and the discussion is involving the transformation of these churches for the glory of Christ Jesus and his

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Gospel of Sovereign Grace. For the first hour, we have Ed Boyle of Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, on the program.

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That congregation was formerly in the United Church of Christ, and upcoming after the five o 'clock midway break, we are going to be joined by Keith Foskey, one of three pastors at Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, formerly in the

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Disciples of Christ denomination, which has become extremely liberal as well.

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For questions, send them to chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And I believe before the break,

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Pastor Ed, you were talking about how the consensus of the congregation that decided to withdraw that congregation from the

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United Church of Christ denomination had more to do with social, political, economic reasons, what is considered conservative social and moral principles, rather than actual allegiance to Christ Jesus and his inerrant word.

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I think, Chris, what I understood, and I don't want to speak about in too much detail the things that occurred before I was here that I can't speak to firsthand, but my understanding is that a couple of the folks here,

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I think, went to the UCC website, the big UCC denomination there, and were just shocked and horrified at what they saw there, the sort of things the

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UCC was supporting, especially the homosexual issue. And so that was,

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I think, probably the catalyst more than any other single issue. So at least that was the final straw.

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And so they, after I think a lot of discussion and probably a lot of angst, because for some of these folks they simply grew up in the

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UCC and that's all they knew, they eventually decided to leave and it became formalized in 2016.

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They drafted up a new constitution. Anyway, and they wound up calling me a year later, but as I mentioned, a good man of God here prepped the battlefield for me,

34:46

Mark, and that had a big part to do with preparing people for expository and preaching.

34:53

One of the discussions that we've had with some of the folks who've left over time in the last couple of years, especially even though I've been here for end of July coming off this will be five years for me, is the whole notion of Calvinism.

35:06

People began to, all of a sudden Calvin became a dirty word here and it's not like I have a Calvin t -shirt or a

35:11

Calvin tattoo or something. I mean, it's just somehow Calvin became tarred and feathered here, the whole notion of Calvinism.

35:18

And I would ask people, what is it about Calvin's teaching that you object to? Do you understand that stone out front that says

35:26

German Reformed 1856 over the doorway? Do you know what it means to be

35:31

Reformed and to say that this was a German Reformed Church? And of course, most people simply don't know.

35:38

Was that a church that was in the group that was formerly known as the Eureka Classes, currently called the

35:46

Reformed Church in the German Reformed denomination?

35:53

I'm not familiar with that. Okay. I was just curious. But anyway, you know, as I mentioned, a number of folks left not long after I got here and with my preaching,

36:06

I began just a few months just to point up an overview of the sweep of Scripture beginning from the

36:12

Old Testament into the New up through Christmas. And then I began a study on the Gospel of John, which took some time.

36:19

And for a lot of folks, they just didn't really care for that. They just didn't like the preaching,

36:27

I guess. And so I was grieved by that. And I still am, because some of these folks honestly just didn't realize what the

36:37

Bible taught. And that's part of the issue, I think. Some guy wrote something several years ago that was recommended to me before I moved here from Illinois about church replanting.

36:48

The idea that in the Northeastern United States, specifically New England and the

36:53

Mid -Atlantic, you have a lot of churches like this that have shrunk and have become a good bit older.

37:00

And basically they've kind of lost who they were theologically a long time ago, beyond the living memory of anyone who there attends the theological roots.

37:09

And so you basically, you're not planting a new church, but you're replanting what was once there and is there in a diluted form now.

37:18

And it's just an interesting concept, this concept of replanting. But here I am. And one guy who had pastored,

37:25

I met a guy after about a year or two here. I was up in State College. He was pastoring a church out in Western PA.

37:33

And he said to me, he said, you know what? I've been there for five years. And at that time,

37:38

I'd only been here for like a year and a half. He said, here's a couple of things I will pass on to you. He said,

37:43

I took over a former UCC church. And he said, I wish I had been more patient with people.

37:49

I came in and I just decided I'm going to change this, I'm going to change that. We're not getting that periodical anymore.

37:55

That's just liberal junk. We're not doing this, this, this. Here's what we're going to be doing. He said, you have to understand that if you think something will take about a year in a place like that, it'll take five years.

38:05

So get your mind mentally settled. I think about that now because the timing of this podcast is interesting because, like I said, the summer will be five years for me here.

38:14

And right now we're revising the church constitution. Hopefully we'll be done within the next one to two months. Finally, in the process of truly appointing elders, which hopefully,

38:23

Lord willing, will be done by the end of April. And we've been moving slowly but surely.

38:29

But his words, I think, were in the Lord's timing to let me know to be patient.

38:34

Because sometimes I sat here wondering, what am I doing here? But I've an unmistakable conviction, Chris. The Lord brought me and my wife here for this mission, to shepherd these good people here.

38:47

And like I said, the Lord has brought us some folks that are strongly Reformed who didn't realize that we were here, and they began to come.

38:54

Praise God. We do have an anonymous listener who says, ideally, if one is planting a church, the only people that would be permitted into membership are those that have a believable profession of faith and are baptized.

39:13

The situation that you are in, it seems, may have been the reverse, where you are inheriting a church where actual members are unregenerate.

39:21

How do you deal with the situation on when to make it clear to unregenerate people, or those that are at least making their lives evident that they are unregenerate, that they have to be removed from membership in Christ's true flock?

39:41

That's a really good question, and one we had to deal with fairly forthwith here.

39:47

What we wound up doing, we realized, speaking to their administrative body here, was called inconsistory.

39:55

And so, with a number of meetings, it became clear that nobody was really a member here at all.

40:01

What we had were people who were members of Trinity UCC, not Trinity Christian Church.

40:07

They're in a formal transition. And how do we do that? And I didn't know this, because I said that this is my first pastor's son.

40:15

I was in the Army, and so, how do I do this, Lord? And so, just talking to some of the folks here, a lot of prayer, seeking the

40:22

Lord's wisdom, I just basically came up with a document, a statement of faith, this is what we believe.

40:30

And if you would like to remain a member, if you would like to become a member of Trinity Christian Church, and you were formerly a member of Trinity UCC, then these are the things that you need to affirm.

40:39

And I discussed these at length, in a congregational meeting about it, and just went through.

40:46

And so, a number of people signed it. I mean, it was a short, concise, initially what I had was 10 pages long, nugged it down to just a couple of pages, because it needed to be more concise.

40:57

The fundamentals of the faith, the deity of Christ, salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, the reality of heaven and hell, et cetera, et cetera, the simple condition of man without the grace of God, the basics of the faith.

41:12

I mean, to call yourself a Christian, there are certain things you must affirm. And so, a number of people signed it, but I kind of suspected early on, someone that didn't, despite my best efforts at educating them, probably didn't realize quite what they were signing.

41:25

And so, that began to come out over time, because I'm preaching through these things. I'm preaching through doctrines.

41:31

And I took on a doctrinal, a topical doctrinal series, the great doctrines of Scripture, the core doctrines of Scripture, I should say.

41:38

And so, preaching through those, some people became upset, because a lot of these people thought they were

41:43

Christians, because my name's on the church membership roll, or I was baptized when I was a baby, or my parents were,

41:49

I don't know, third, fourth, fifth generation in this church. How dare you tell me I'm not a Christian if I don't believe these things?

41:56

And so, there was... And obviously, a good retort to that would be, well, your family members from five generations ago would share my opinion that you're not regenerate.

42:08

Yeah, a generation ago, exactly. Once upon a time, it would have been understood. And so, anyway, so that was the cause of some other folks leaving, and a lot of people just became increasingly aware of what

42:23

Reformed Theology meant. You know, when I was coming to a better understanding of Reformed Theology, Chris, my wife would ask me, what is this

42:30

Reformed Theology you keep talking about, you keep reading about? And I would try to explain it to her, and she said, one time she said, isn't that just what the

42:38

Bible teaches? I know you're exactly right. I just have to very quickly share a story that's going to be abbreviated that relates to what you just said.

42:50

Years ago, when I worked for WMCA Radio, a Salem media affiliate, an elderly

42:57

Jewish man who was a journalist, Orthodox Jew, contacted me, said he wanted to buy three hours of air time to debate a local independent fundamentalist

43:07

Baptist pastor in Brooklyn. And he wanted to debate on whether or not

43:14

Jesus is God and whether the New Testament is God's Word. And this man considered himself, although a

43:22

Jew, an Orthodox Jew, he considered himself a student of the New Testament, claiming to have read it at least a hundred times.

43:31

And so I sold this man the air time, and I'm listening to the debate, and he says to his fundamentalist

43:38

Baptist opponent, let me get this straight. You believe that God chose certain people before the foundation of the world to be saved, and he bypassed everybody else, and they're going to hell.

43:53

And the Baptist pastor said, excuse me, Ira, wait a minute. Wait a minute, Ira. You got me all wrong.

43:59

I'm not a Calvinist. And the Jewish man said, you're not a what? I'm not a Calvinist. Well, that's a

44:05

Calvinist. He said, Calvinist is what you're describing, Ira. He goes, I've never even heard of that word.

44:10

I'm talking about your Bible, your New Testament. I've read it a hundred times, and it's clearly what it teaches.

44:17

Yeah. He could see that from the outside looking in. He could see it. Yes. We have another anonymous listener who says, since this congregation was formerly in the

44:30

United Church of Christ, which believes in infant baptism in addition to other things that are absolutely abhorrent and liberal, how did your congregation overcome the hurdle of believing in believers' baptism only, if indeed that is your position?

44:48

You didn't make it clear in the beginning whether you are a paedo -Baptist congregation or a Reformed Baptist congregation.

44:56

Yeah, I do not adhere to infant baptism. I mean, now, I have friends who are

45:01

Presbyterian and otherwise convicted who do believe in baptism. We have some members here who believe in infant baptism, but they also affirm that it is not efficacious to salvation.

45:17

And so the issue of infant baptism came up early on. One of the folks in the church asked me a couple.

45:26

Their daughter wanted to baptize her grandson, wanted him baptized as an infant, and would

45:33

I do that? I said, you guys already know that I don't do that. I will be glad to dedicate a child to the

45:39

Lord in front of the congregation, but we don't baptize. That's just not how we do it here, and I don't believe that the

45:44

Scriptures teach that. I affirm believers' baptism and believers' baptism only. And so for some folks, that was a denigration of their childhood experience.

45:56

I think that's what they couldn't separate, because so many of his people had been, as one man put it, spiritually malnourished.

46:02

They simply didn't know what the Bible taught. There's a few things here and there, John 3, 16, and Revelation 3,

46:10

I stand at the door and knock, okay, but they take that verse out of context, but they don't realize they are.

46:17

People just needed to hear the Word, and that was what I was determined to do, was to preach the Word, to teach the

46:22

Word, to minister to people, and to love these people. That's what I had to do. So do you require immersion of professing believers for membership in your local congregation?

46:37

No, when we, like a couple years ago here, the church was, I don't want to say another split, but it was almost continuing to evolve and morph, with some more folks leaving.

46:48

We have some, one family who are members here, and they come from a Presbyterian, OBC background, wonderful family, and they understand my position on this, but I did not deny a membership to them on the basis of not having believers baptized.

47:04

Basically the position that the Evangelical Free Church would have. Probably, yeah,

47:10

I don't want to... Well, I know for a fact that they do not require baptism for membership.

47:16

They believe that a believer who is a member should pursue that, but they don't require it, unlike a

47:24

Reformed Baptist church who would require it, not for salvation, but for membership. And I'm sure you would agree,

47:30

I don't know if our anonymous listener meant it this way, I have a feeling he did not, or she did not, but we would not equate the belief and practice of infant baptism as much as you and I disagree with it, we would not equate it with the the liberal, or should

47:49

I even say leftist, apostate abominations of belief and practice that the liberal or left -wing denominations have come to believe and teach and practice.

48:02

Exactly, because I mean, I've met, for whom I have tremendous respect, who've gone to be with the Lord, like Sproul, D. James Kennedy, and others who, in their

48:10

Presbyterian denominational structure, affirmed infant baptism, but both of them understood it wasn't efficacious in salvation.

48:17

So that's one of those issues where we disagree, but we disagree in good faith, and that's not an issue for which

48:22

I would break fellowship with an otherwise very solid believer. In fact, there's another extremely conservative, even fundamental, denomination whose pastors

48:35

I have grown to love, the ones that I've heard preach. The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster in Northern Ireland, which also has a wing here in the

48:46

United States, the Free Presbyterian Church of North America. And they are one of those very rare Presbyterian churches whose ministers are predominantly baptistic, who believe in credo rather than pedo baptism.

49:04

They only immerse professing believers and do not baptize infants, although there are some pedo -baptist ministers in their midst.

49:12

And if a couple has a baby and they want the baby baptized, if a pastor of that congregation happens to be a credo or baptistic minister, he will tell them that we will have to invite a pedo -baptist minister into the congregation to perform the ordinance.

49:39

We will not do that. So I'm assuming that's the same thing that you're doing. Yeah, and then we baptized some folks down at Grace in Carlisle.

49:49

John Miller graciously opened their church for us to allow us to do that, because there's no baptismal here.

49:54

They had something up front that was basically for infant baptism, which we took away. So yeah,

50:00

I baptized five folks down there about maybe a year and a half ago. But you're saying, though, that you would allow someone to have their baby baptized by somebody other than yourself?

50:10

Well, not in the church here. Okay. No, not in the church. We just use baptismal here.

50:17

We just don't have a facility for it. I have to go, we have to go somewhere else to do it. But it wouldn't be a disciplinary issue if they went to another church to have their baby baptized?

50:27

No, as long as they, if there were members here, and they understood, which they would, or they wouldn't have become members, that we don't believe that baptism is efficacious towards salvation in any way, shape, or form.

50:39

Mm -hmm. Amen. Or if it was just something they simply felt compelled to do, then they could do it.

50:46

I wouldn't break fellowship with them over that. Now, in the few minutes that we have left, can you summarize perhaps what you most want etched in the hearts and minds, perhaps particularly for pastors who are going through the same experience that you have gone through?

51:02

Maybe some quick do's and don'ts. And I know that you mentioned patience earlier being a key element in doing something that you're involved in.

51:11

But if you could conclude our program in that manner. Sure. Thanks, Chris. I would say to my brother pastors faced in this situation, or other people who are simply attending a church that is in a similar situation as Trinity was,

51:25

I would say, patience is called for, but also recall the words of the Lord to his own disciples. I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

51:34

Consider that. A local pastor here mentioned that to me when I was really frustrated after a year, year and a half here.

51:40

I thought about that. A lot of the folks here simply were not in a rebellion against the scripture.

51:47

They simply didn't know what the Bible taught. So much as what I was preaching straightforwardly and directly week after week was threatening to what they thought was

51:55

Christian. And so they were simply sheep who had been deceived and spiritually malnourished.

52:02

You don't deal with sheep in the same way that you deal with wolves. When a wolf comes in, that is dealt with directly by confrontation.

52:10

But for a sheep, we need to show the same compassion that the Lord showed upon us. Continue to teach and preach the word of God faithfully from the scriptures, and don't be discouraged by folks leaving.

52:23

A friend of mine told me something that he was told when he had a similar frustration. He said a gentleman told him sometimes you have to empty a church before you can fill it.

52:34

Some folks just simply are going to leave while it grieves you, and it still grieves me. Those nice people were my friends, and I've grown to genuinely love them.

52:44

And I see them around, and some folks wave and will talk to me, and some folks won't.

52:50

It bothers you, but you can't take that personally. This is the gospel ministry, and the truth tends to divide.

52:57

Let us do so with the spirit that is gracious and compassionate toward those who need the gospel. Well, thank you so much,

53:03

Pastor Ed. I want to let our listeners know what your website is. It's tccnb .org.

53:11

That's T -C -C for Trinity Christian Church, N -B for newbloomfield .org,

53:19

and that is Trinity Christian Church in New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania. I look forward to having you return to the program, and hopefully the next time for two hours, brother.

53:28

I know that your schedule did not permit you to be on for the whole program today, but I look forward to your return, and your frequent return to the program.

53:37

I really enjoyed our discussion. Thanks, brother. I really appreciate it, Chris. God bless. God bless you, too. And coming up, folks, for the second hour to discuss the same theme that we discussed with Pastor Ed Boyle during the first hour of the program, we have

53:53

Keith Foskey joining us. He is one of three pastors of Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, which is a congregation formerly in the

54:02

Disciples of Christ, another very liberal mainline denomination, which was formerly affiliated with the

54:12

Restoration movement started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell in the 19th century, which led to three major groups, the

54:21

Church of Christ a cappella, the Church of Christ and Christian churches that use musical instruments, and on the far left of the spectrum, the

54:30

Disciples of Christ. But we will be discussing the same theme, transforming churches formerly in liberal denominations for the glory of Christ Jesus and his gospel of sovereign grace.

54:40

If you have a question, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

54:49

Please be patient. This is the longer break that we have in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us the longer break because they have to, according to the

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FCC, localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements, and we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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So please be patient. We'll be right back after these messages don't go away. This is

55:25

Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

55:31

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

55:52

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Before we are joined by Keith Foskey of Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, who is going to continue the theme,

01:10:12

Transforming Churches Formally in Liberal Denominations for the Glory of Christ Jesus and His Gospel of Sovereign Grace, we just have a couple of announcements to make.

01:10:19

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01:12:18

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically sound, Christ -honoring, doctrinally solid church like Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, or Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, well, no matter where in the world you live,

01:12:35

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01:12:47

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01:12:54

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question for our second guest today,

01:13:01

Keith Foskey, who is pastor of Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, which is a congregation formerly in the

01:13:09

Disciples of Christ, and we're discussing transforming churches formerly in liberal denominations, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Ironsharpensironradio, Keith Foskey.

01:13:20

Yes, sir, it's my honor to be here. Thanks for asking, Chris, I appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure. Let our listeners know something about Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida, as it exists today.

01:13:32

Well, we are, if you know anything about the Jacksonville area, we're on the north side of Jacksonville, which is near the airport.

01:13:40

We're five minutes from the Jacksonville International Airport. We are a confessing

01:13:46

Baptist church. We confess the 1646 London Baptist Confession, which is actually the first confession, and we have some reasons for that, which we can maybe talk about in another program, but we are a confessing

01:14:01

Baptist church, and we have an elder who governs as far as our elders.

01:14:07

There are three of us, three pastors here, three elders who serve and minister and lead the church, govern the church through that, and we are very thankful that God has continued to be faithful to us in all these years.

01:14:20

And I have had the privilege of worshiping with those dear saints there in Jacksonville, Florida, during a conference that you hosted for Dr.

01:14:28

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and I just have nothing but the most fond memories of that experience, and I ask you to send my warm greetings in Christ to the saints there in Jacksonville.

01:14:43

Absolutely. And the website, I hope to repeat this later if I remember, but it's sgfcjax .org.

01:14:54

That's S -G -F -C for Sovereign Grace Family Church, S -G -F -C -J -A -X -J -A -X -dot -org.

01:15:03

Well, tell me how you came to, for the first time, how you came to be familiar with this congregation before it bore the current name,

01:15:16

Sovereign Grace Family Church, when it was in the denomination known as the

01:15:22

Disciples of Christ, as I said earlier. This is a denomination that has become an extremely mainline leftist denomination.

01:15:32

One might even say apostate, not that every single person in that denomination is apostate, but certainly that is the predominance of it.

01:15:42

It broke away from their sister Restorationist churches, which began with Thomas and Alexander Campbell in the 19th century.

01:15:55

They are the Church of Christ, which is a strictly a cappella worship group.

01:16:01

And then you have the Churches of Christ and Christian churches, which typically has musical instruments, and then you have the

01:16:07

Disciples of Christ, which basically has become completely alienated by the other two groups because the

01:16:15

Disciples of Christ, as I said, has become extremely left -wing and apostate for the most part.

01:16:22

How did you become familiar with this congregation when it was still a part of the Disciples of Christ?

01:16:30

Well, my story is a little different than a lot of others, because I actually have always been in this church since I was seven years old.

01:16:39

I grew up in this church, and when it was a part of the Disciples of Christ, I was a kid.

01:16:46

I grew up here, and so it isn't like I came to this church. I was a part of this church almost from birth.

01:16:54

I mean, my mom and dad were divorced when I was six years old. My stepmom came into my life when

01:16:59

I was seven, and the first thing she said was, you've got to go to church. Okay, and she was a faithful church member and still is.

01:17:06

So at seven years old, she began to bring me to church, and it was then called

01:17:11

Forest Christian Church Disciples of Christ. That was the name of the church. I didn't know the difference between a

01:17:18

Baptist, a Catholic, or anything else. I just knew that it was a Christian church because that was in the title, Forest Christian Church.

01:17:26

I grew up going to Sunday school, doing the normal church youth group thing, but when

01:17:32

I turned 19 years old—I had just recently—I got married at 19, so after I was married,

01:17:39

I got legitimately saved. I did not get saved in this church, but I got saved outside of the church through a friend who shared the gospel with me, and because of that,

01:17:52

I began to truly desire the things of God and to truly desire the Word of God. My life and heart changed, but I still felt a connection to the church of my youth, the church that I grew up in.

01:18:05

I kept going to the same church that I had always gone to, but with a new set of eyes and a new heart because God had changed my heart.

01:18:16

My wife, as well, got saved about the same time as I did. We were both very young, right then about 19, 20 years old, and we both began to recognize that the things that the church was doing were not necessarily biblical, and it wasn't as if they were promoting wild, leftist ideas like homosexual marriage or something like that, but it was little things.

01:18:40

It was things that were very—like the gospel was not being clearly proclaimed.

01:18:46

The Word of God was not being, what we would say, properly preached. The pastor would get up, he would tell stories, and then he would end his sermon with some kind of a joke or anecdote, and that was it.

01:19:00

There was no need. There was nothing about sin. There was nothing about the salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and the more

01:19:09

I recognized that those things were absent, the more I began to wonder, should

01:19:14

I continue in this church? About that time, about two years later,

01:19:22

God confirmed in my heart that I had a call to preach, and I began to have opportunities to preach at this church.

01:19:31

Under the former pastor, God allowed for that, and the preaching that I was able to do,

01:19:39

I was able to preach regeneration, to preach salvation by grace through faith, and the people were responding positively because they hadn't had that.

01:19:50

It was different, and so the church—I expressed the desire to go to seminary, and because I had grown up here, many people loved me, and I was being supported by people—and when

01:20:06

I say supported, not financially, I was being supported—encouraged, rather, but people began to say, well, if you want to go to seminary, we as a church want to support you, so they did support me financially to go to seminary, but they let me choose where I went.

01:20:19

Wow. So I went to a local Baptist seminary called Jacksville Baptist Theological Seminary, and I always joke,

01:20:26

I say my seminary was more like a trade school, because I went to school with guys who were 50, 60 years old.

01:20:33

It wasn't like Southern seminary or something like that, it was a local seminary where a lot of these guys had been in ministry for a while, and they were just looking to get a degree, looking to expand themselves.

01:20:42

It was great, my experience was great, but I was the youngest guy. I was in my 20s, everybody else was much older than me, and that was a good experience, too.

01:20:50

But through that, God really confirmed that my convictions were very

01:20:55

Baptist, and especially regarding sin and the nature of man, the nature of God, and I never thought in a million years the church would hire me, because I was very clearly convicted as a

01:21:08

Baptist. But by God's grace, the former pastor retired in 2006, and when he retired, the church, by a hundred percent vote, the church called me as the pastor in 2006.

01:21:25

Praise God. Yeah, by God's grace. It was an amazing day. My wife and I were very thankful.

01:21:33

What's funny is I was 26 years old, so I was very young, very green, but I knew that God called me to do this thing at this place, because He had confirmed it through that.

01:21:44

And so I just began to preach through the scriptures. My first series was a verse -by -verse exposition of Luke, and I would preach that on Sunday morning, and Wednesday nights

01:21:58

I would teach through books of the Bible or whatever, and it really, expositional preaching became the standard.

01:22:06

That was what I set out to do, was to preach through books of the Bible. I've been the pastor here now 16 years.

01:22:13

I've preached through several of the New Testament books and a couple of Old Testament books, but it usually takes me a while to get through them.

01:22:19

I've been in Genesis now for three years, so to give you an idea, we don't go too fast. But the expositional preaching of the

01:22:28

Word was what God used, because it was through that I was teaching

01:22:33

Romans in Sunday school. People began to hear words like election and predestination. That did create some consternation, and some people did leave, but the people who wanted the

01:22:45

Word and wanted to hear the Word, God kept them here, and we began to turn in a direction of being a

01:22:53

Sovereign Grace Church, and that's why in 2011 we changed our name to Sovereign Grace Family Church.

01:22:58

Now, how and when in your journey did you come yourself to discover and embrace these doctrines known as the doctrines of Sovereign Grace?

01:23:12

That happened for me between 2004 and 2006, so the two years prior to me becoming the pastor here,

01:23:21

I was exposed to the teaching of men like John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul and many others.

01:23:29

I mean, probably the one who was most influential, not a lot of people have heard of this guy, but his name is Roy Hargrave.

01:23:34

He was the pastor of Riverbend Community Church in Ormond Beach, Florida. Yeah, I actually know who he is.

01:23:41

He was such a wonderful—you know, he passed away. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, he passed away a while back, but he was such a powerful preacher of the

01:23:52

Gospel, and he was a Baptist, but he was a Sovereign Grace Baptist. He was a Calvinistic Baptist, and I got a series of CDs from him, the five points of Calvinism.

01:24:03

Each one was on its own CD, and I must have listened to those things. I know you can't really wear out a CD, but I must have worn out the

01:24:09

CD player listening to those sermons because they were so good, and he really helped me.

01:24:16

And the other person, probably outside of Roy Hargrave, the person who probably did the most for me was James White, and as you know,

01:24:23

James White has been to our church. I consider him not only a mentor, but a friend. I love him to death, and his book,

01:24:30

Debating Calvinism with Dave Hunt, was put out by my seminary. My seminary was anti -Calvinism, and they gave us that book promoting anti -Calvinism, and I read it, and I went the other way.

01:24:43

Did they read it? Because Dave Hunt did not really make a compelling case at all for his opposition to the doctrines of sovereign grace.

01:24:56

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But I still have the copy of that book that the seminary gave us.

01:25:02

Of course we know that Dave Hunt is a Calvinist now. Yeah, absolutely. Because, folks, he's in heaven if you didn't understand that joke.

01:25:12

No, no, I did, but yeah, he's Calvinist now for sure. But yeah, that was it.

01:25:18

I received that book, and that's how I learned about James White. I started listening to The Dividing Line. I heard about some guy on the radio named

01:25:25

Chris Arnzen, and I met you, and I still to this day remember when you and I met the first time

01:25:34

Mike Gaydosh was here, you did the hearty, hearty, hearty Martin Luther thing.

01:25:43

I don't know if your audience knows what that is. I did that at your church? You didn't do it.

01:25:48

You did it for me. Oh, okay. But I just remember you doing the voice, and it was so funny.

01:25:56

That night we were here putting out the books for Mike Gaydosh's book sales. By the way, that song, that parody

01:26:03

I did of Martin Luther, somebody called me a number of years ago, or emailed me, and said,

01:26:13

Chris, do you know that that song that you recorded is on YouTube, and it was posted there by a

01:26:19

Ukrainian? And it turned out that this Ukrainian, I just interviewed him twice recently about what is happening in Ukraine.

01:26:28

He's still in Ukraine. He's a seminary professor in Ukraine, and he is the one that discovered that song that I recorded and posted it on YouTube many years ago.

01:26:40

And so it's just funny how the Lord in his providence has had that song travel around the world.

01:26:48

But going back to the actual Disciples of Christ congregation, it sounds like it was not nearly as committed to the leftist agenda as many, if not most, congregations in that denomination are today.

01:27:09

It's not, I mean, I could be wrong, but your description almost sounded like an evangelical light description.

01:27:14

You have churches today that are, by name, Baptist and non -denominational and other things that are really not committed to boldly proclaim the truths of the gospel that are unpopular in our modern era.

01:27:35

And so you have a very watered -down atmosphere. Is that more what your congregation was before you took the helm as pastor, by God's grace?

01:27:47

Yes. In fact, this is the way I would describe it. I would say because of where we were, because of where we are, particularly in the

01:27:56

South, Bible Belt, Jacksonville is right on the bottom of the buckle of that Bible Belt. We're almost

01:28:04

Georgia, if you think about where we are as far as proximity. We're only a few miles from Georgia. So the way that I describe our church prior to becoming

01:28:14

Reformed is our church was what I would say was socially conservative, but theologically liberal.

01:28:22

They didn't even know it, though. They didn't even know how liberal they were theologically, and it took preaching the doctrines of, not even just the doctrines of sovereign grace, but just plain

01:28:32

Christian doctrine. Like, for instance, we had a pastor in the 80s who didn't even believe in the Virgin Birth, and the church hired him, and he came in and was preaching.

01:28:44

They didn't know that he didn't believe in the Virgin Birth. Come Christmas time, he's preaching, Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, and everybody looked around like, what are you talking about?

01:28:53

What's funny is if that happened today, that dude would get tackled and carried out of here.

01:29:00

We wouldn't let him continue to preach. So your church is done for love and gentleness. Oh, yeah.

01:29:07

Well, there's always a loving body slam in there somewhere.

01:29:15

We will apply the chokehold of love. Well, you guard your pulpit.

01:29:23

The sacred desk is a very important thing to guard with mighty force, if necessary.

01:29:30

Absolutely. So looking back, knowing that in the 1980s,

01:29:36

I knew the guy. I know his name. I played with his son, and he had come here.

01:29:42

Back then, the pastor turned over much more commonly than it does now, sort of like in the

01:29:47

Methodist church where you get a new pastor every two or three years. Well, for a while, this church was that way. Every two or three years, there was a new pastor, but the pastor that preceded me was here for 13 years.

01:29:58

So he was here for a while, and then I've been here 16 years. So we've sort of gone past that.

01:30:06

But when I was younger, when I was a kid, you know, two or three years, and that pastor was in the 80s.

01:30:12

He didn't believe in the virgin birth. And then later, we had pastors who affirmed homosexuality, not necessarily from the pulpit, but at least from the sense of they wouldn't preach against it.

01:30:25

If somebody says, well, is this wrong? They would hem and haw. They would, you know, well, they're people, and we love them, and that kind of thing.

01:30:31

Like Tim Keller. Yes, yes. And so, like I said, the church was theologically liberal and didn't even really know it.

01:30:43

When I got ordained, the church had a female elder. I was ordained before I became the pastor, and even my ordination certificate—I'm looking at it right now, it's across the way.

01:30:55

My ordination certificate has a woman's name on it, and I don't affirm—I didn't affirm her at the time. She asked me, do you believe

01:31:01

I should be here? And I said, no. But I was, you know,

01:31:07

I was in the process of being ordained, and that was the structure of the church at the time. So there was a lot of the church that was theologically liberal, but they didn't realize it, because—and one of the things that I've heard many times from Brother Jack Lenning, who is one of our eldest members, he's 86 years old, he said,

01:31:24

Keith, one of the things you did was you taught us the Bible. We've never had that before.

01:31:30

Nobody taught the Bible. It sounds like they were like likely every single liberal mainline denomination, even when those churches were initially overcome and overtaken by liberalism due to German higher criticism and other things, they were still conservative, especially in compared to today's moral ethic, or lack thereof.

01:32:00

Like, you know, back in the 50s and earlier, you did not have an open affirmation of homosexuality and abortion, even when churches had turned to liberalism.

01:32:13

That is something that's just a given today, for the most part. Yeah, absolutely.

01:32:19

I agree with that 100%. Yeah, it was, like I said, socially conservative, but theologically liberal.

01:32:25

Didn't even realize it. Yeah. We have another anonymous listener. I don't know why all of our listeners are anonymous today, but we have an anonymous listener who asks, knowing of the connection that the disciples of Christ has had historically to the

01:32:41

Restoration movement and Campbellism, was there a remnant of Restorationist and Campbellite views in the congregation, such as the requirement of immersion in water for the remission of sins and other such things that are unique to the

01:32:58

Restoration movement? That's a very good question, and I can say this.

01:33:04

There was a small remnant of that here, but it was less, because as I said earlier, they were theologically liberal.

01:33:12

They were also somewhat theologically untrained. So some of it,

01:33:18

I actually had to teach what it was so that I could teach against it. I actually, I remember saying, historically, this denomination has taught that someone has to be immersed in Jesus' name to be saved, and that's how a person receives the remission of sins, is through this.

01:33:37

And I remember some of them saying, I don't remember being taught that. And I said, well, it's possible that you weren't taught that, because you haven't been taught theology, good or bad, you just haven't been taught it.

01:33:48

But the, so yes, there was a small remnant of a few people. I'll give you a good example. There was a young man who went to Johnson Bible College.

01:33:57

Johnson Bible College was, I believe it's still connected to the

01:34:02

Restoration movement, and so a lot of their theology is in line with that. And he visited with us, before I became the pastor, he visited with us while he was going to Bible College, and the previous pastor and him really took a liking to one another and started spending time together.

01:34:19

And he and I, we became friends, and we spent time together. And I remember, I said to him one day,

01:34:26

I said, my favorite Bible verse is Ephesians 2, 8. For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

01:34:36

And he looked at me, and he said, well, my favorite verse is Acts 2, 38. And I looked a little confused.

01:34:42

I said, why? He said, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. And so his verse really was tied to that doctrine of being baptized for the remission of sin.

01:34:53

So there were people here who held to those doctrines, but they were few and far between. Yeah, it's interesting that earlier on in that same book, the

01:35:03

Book of Acts, you have Peter saying to the

01:35:10

Jewish Christians, how can you forbid water baptism to those who have the same gift of the

01:35:17

Spirit as we? So in other words, they had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, and he commanded them to be baptized after they had already had the gift of the

01:35:26

Holy Spirit. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we had a lot of conversations about that.

01:35:31

That whole thing, you know, what's funny is, you're familiar with this, I'm sure, but the Duck Dynasty family, the

01:35:38

Phil Robertson, all those guys, those guys are part of that restoration movement. Yeah, they were in the acapella wing of the

01:35:45

Church of Christ. Yep, yep. And we have had a few people prior to our name change, we've had a few people come along who have had that same theology.

01:36:00

I remember one day I preached justification by faith alone, and we had a visitor here, and as he was leaving, he says, you left out

01:36:07

James 2 .24. You know, you're justified by works and not by faith alone.

01:36:12

And he's like sort of shouting at me that I left that out, and I said, no, I didn't leave it out. I believe that that could be harmonized with everything that I said today.

01:36:20

But the point is, I said, you know, why did you visit with us today? And he goes, well, you're a restoration church. I said, no, we're not, even though the name is

01:36:28

Forest Christian Church. By that time, we had already dropped the denomination. We dropped the title, Disciples of Christ.

01:36:33

But even the title, Christian Church, tied it to that. And I remember getting back to the

01:36:38

Duck Dynasty thing. I remembered when those guys became super popular,

01:36:44

I said, people don't realize what they're teaching. Even when Phil Robertson baptized, you can go online and watch, when he baptizes folks, he says, this, you are going under the water of sin, or you're coming out saved.

01:36:57

This is for the remission of your sins. And like I said, it really is, it becomes, in that sense, a justification by works.

01:37:08

We're going to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question for Keith Foskey, please send it in immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:37:17

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside the

01:37:22

USA, only remain anonymous. If the question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

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We'll be right back with Keith Foskey. been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

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We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.

01:39:15

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:39:39

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

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William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington, founder of the ministry

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Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York, and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon featuring Daniel P. Buttafuoco, who is founder and president of the aforementioned

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Historical Bible Society. That's this Thursday, April 7th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the

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Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is in Perry County about 20 minutes from where I'm sitting.

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I hope that you can join us. It's absolutely free and the email address you can submit your registration to is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:46:23

chrisarnson at gmail .com. I hope to see you there. Keith Foskey, one of the things that I wanted to say that I failed to in introducing you is one of your elders,

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Andrew Montoro, as I used to call him and as most people call him, Andy Montoro, he was my precious late wife's or one of my precious late wife's pastors at the

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First Baptist Church of Lindenhurst, Long Island. And it has always been a joy to know

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Pastor Andy and his wife, Candy, and have so many precious memories of fellowship with them and my precious late wife.

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And I just wanted to you to send my greetings to Pastor Andy. Absolutely.

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And I look forward to telling him that we got a chance to speak. And it is interesting because you are the you're the one who's responsible for him coming here.

01:47:18

I believe I think that somehow. Yeah, I invited him to the James White conference.

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Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so I'm thankful that we met. And he's been a wonderful brother and now a faithful pastor here with us.

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You know, he's one of, like I said, three of us who are elders here. And it's great.

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He's a great guy. In fact, I had a little bit of an intimidating experience with Pastor Andy when

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I started dating who would eventually be my wife, Julie. He had a sit down with me.

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What are your intentions, sir? And well, and he

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I just have nothing but the highest regard for this brother. But one thing that we want to mention in regard to the restorationist connection to the disciples of Christ, it's interesting how the more liberal that group came, as with all liberal denominations that may have begun believing in the requirement of baptism for salvation, whether believer baptism or infant, that the whole issue of salvation becomes a moot point because nobody needs salvation.

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The more liberal you become in their minds anyway. Yeah, that's true.

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And really, I remember being a teenager and again, growing up in this church, there were the idea that you should believe in Jesus was not an urgent thing.

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And the idea of being baptized was more cultural than it was that you needed to do this to be saved.

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And I remember at Sunday school just hearing, you know, well, you know, sincere

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Mormons are fine, sincere Muslims are fine, sincere Hindus are fine, because all it really needs is sincerity, not truth.

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And those things were it was just it was just understood, you know, and here's the thing.

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They really stand on this idea of this in essentials, unity and non essentials, liberty and all things charity.

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That, of course, comes from Augustine. But and it's a true statement in essentials, there should be unity and non essentials, there should be liberty.

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The problem is, is in denominations that become liberal or are liberal, all of the essentials go away, and everything becomes a non essential.

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Yeah, they define, they redefine what essential means. And they might include with that essential, the most essential thing is to be loving toward all people.

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And they would redefine love, because in their minds, love means being accepting of the sins, even the abominable sins of others to the point where you're not only accept them into membership, but you ordain people who are notorious for these sins, like homosexuality and transgenderism, and all kinds of horrific things.

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Yeah, in fact, if I could just interject, you just made a good point. If the last time our church actually went to a national meeting of the disciples of Christ, I think if I remember correctly, it was in 1999.

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So that was so even before I became the pastor, there was there was, you know, there was an obvious sort of breaking away from that, from the from the denomination, because the denomination itself had gone really crazy.

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Our pastor before me went and he brought back papers from that, we still have them in our in our church documents, papers from a 1999 conference, which were at that time talking about ordaining homosexuals, and affirming things like racial reparation, stuff like that stuff that is now very common, was being pushed and promoted within the disciples of Christ denomination, denomination more than 22 years ago.

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And I have the record to that I showed Dr. White when he was here, I said, look at what they were doing 20 years ago.

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And it's the stuff that's very, very prominent now. Now, why don't you give our listeners some valuable lessons that they may learn, especially if they're ministers, on how to appropriately through obviously the power of the

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Holy Spirit, and obedience to Christ and his word and the proclamation of the gospel, transform a liberal congregation to a

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Bible believing congregation, and maybe include in there some do's and don'ts in the few minutes that we have left, we have about eight minutes left.

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Okay, well, first of all, one of the things that I have always told people that I wouldn't have been able to do anything that I did without two main things.

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Number one, I really believe that I stood firm on God's word, and I preached the

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Bible. I didn't come in with an agenda saying, I'm going to preach, I'm going to preach

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Calvinism or something like that. I didn't do, I just preached the word. And the word is what is primarily transformative.

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If you're a pastor who wants to transform a church, preach the word. You know, this is Paul's admonition to Timothy, first Timothy, or second

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Timothy, chapter four, you know, preach the word, and to do that, that's our charge.

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But the second thing is to promote an atmosphere of trust with your people, that the direction that you are going is, you are not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, you're not trying to fool anybody, be upfront and honest.

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These are the concerns I have, and this is the direction that I believe the church should go, and they may not follow, they may kick you out.

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I'll tell you a quick story. In 2008, I thought I was going to be removed for being a Calvinist.

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In 2008, there were people, only a small minority, but there were a small group of people in the church who started to have private meetings in their homes, because they wanted to remove me.

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And I thought the best thing to do is just resign, because I don't want to be a stumbling block, and I made a decision to resign.

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I still have my resignation letter. I wrote a resignation letter, and I called Tom Askin, and I don't know if your listeners know who that is,

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I know you do. Oh yeah, great man. Yeah, yeah, he's a great man. Well, I called

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Tom. At that point, I had met him through the founders, and I said, Tom, I think that I'm going to have to resign.

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I think that the church wants me to leave. And he said, don't you dare resign. He said, you take a stand.

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If they want you to leave, you make them make you leave. He said, but as long as God has you there, you stand for what's right, and you take the hit, and you keep moving forward.

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He said, if you're going to leave, you make them make you leave. And I took that to heart.

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I stood up in the pulpit the very next Sunday. I said, look, I know I've been accused of being a Calvinist. Many of you don't know what that is, but over the next few months,

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I want to help explain what that is and help you understand why that's not a scary thing. I don't eat babies.

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That's a terrible thing to say, but there was this whole Calvinist belief, babies go to hell. It was a crazy myth that was going around the church that I was wicked because I was a

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Calvinist. And I know that sounds weird. You're wicked for a lot of other reasons.

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I'm a wicked sinner, but not because of that. So God allowed me to preach the truth and preach the scriptures.

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And as I said, I think it was a lot had to do with trust, because what I did was I began to go to people's homes who

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I knew had an issue with me, who I knew had an issue with what I was preaching. And I began to sit down with them and hold the word of God open and say, what does this say?

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Am I saying something that this doesn't say? Did any of your enemies become true believers in the midst of all this?

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Oh, sure, sure. I mean, I could name a few, I won't name anybody by name, but there were,

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I remember one specific man who I wouldn't say was ever my enemy, but he certainly was, he was questioning what was happening.

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And I sat across from him with my Bible open and I would read to him and I would turn my Bible around, I'd push it across and I would say, now read that, he'd read it.

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And I said, doesn't that say what I just said? And he said, yes, it does. And I said, so what are you going to do?

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Are you going to listen to these people who are trying to, are trying to take you in the wrong direction?

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Are you going to listen to the word of God? And he, by God's grace, he's still here. That guy's still here to this day.

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But there were a few people who left, the lady who was an elder at the time, by that time she was not an elder anymore by 2008 or so.

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And she didn't like me for a lot of reasons. She didn't like to hear about sin. She told me specifically, I don't need to be told

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I'm a sinner every week. And I said, no, you really do. We all do.

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We all need to be reminded that Christ died for sinners and we are sinners.

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And so, yeah, there was a lot of, there was a lot of that. And there were some, there were some enemies who turned, there were some people who left and by God's grace, there was a little bit of a culling of the herd, you know, at one point, but I wouldn't call it a church split.

01:57:02

We only had about three families that decided to go elsewhere because of the Calvinist pastor.

01:57:09

But other than that, it wasn't anything major. And would you describe this really initially, when a man of God believes he is called to bring the majority of an established congregation to repentance and faith in Christ, it's really not a church he is pastoring, he is on a mission field.

01:57:30

Wouldn't you say that that would be accurate? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I will say this, there were many conversations that my wife and I had about that very thing.

01:57:41

Are we pastoring a group of people that many of them are not saved? And I will say, I have done a lot of baptisms of people who had been previously baptized, but came to the realization that they were not saved.

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And I took them through the gospel and helped them understand their salvation. And now people call it rebaptism, but I just say one true baptism.

01:58:02

But yeah, I mean, that happens often. By the way, you might find it interesting that years ago in the 90s,

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Mike Gadosh hosted a program that I created called

01:58:15

The Voice of Sovereign Grace. Mike Gadosh hosted it with four other theologically reformed pastors who took turns every night,

01:58:23

Monday through Friday, to have their sermon aired. And when he preached against the ordination of women, a woman elder called me, because I used to man the phones for that, and a woman elder called me who was a

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Presbyterian elder in the PCUSA, and I believe it was Malvern, New York, Nassau County.

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She said, not only must I step down from the eldership after hearing that message

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I'm so convicted, I have to find a new church because I don't want to be a member of a church that permits eldership.

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I wish that I could remember that woman's contact information, because I'd love to hear where she wound up.

01:59:04

But Keith, it's been such a joy having you on the program. I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information again, as I was mentioning earlier.

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It is sgfcjax .org, S -G for Sovereign Grace, F -C for Family Church, Jax, J -A -X, abbreviation for Jacksonville, .org,

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S -G -F -C -Jax .org. Keith Flosky, I look forward to your return to Iron Sherpa's Iron.

01:59:34

Thank you, Chris, and thanks for having me on today. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater