Should We Be Judging Sermons? (with Honest Youth Pastor)

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me.

And I need a friendly voice with some good feet.

Mix a manly drink, Pepsi and shoe polish.

And I hit the YouTube link.

Don't say hit, that sounds violent.

And I feel my

troubles

almost

calm.

Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

And welcome to Your Calvinist Podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and as always, I am your Calvinist.

I'm so grateful to have you with me for the show today.

And I'm looking forward to talking to my guest.

But before I do that, I do have a few things I would like to share with you.

As we begin each show, reminding you that this is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church.

So if you're in the Jacksonville area, come visit us at Sovereign Grace Family Church.

And you can find us at sgfcjax .org.

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Don't forget also if you have a question that you would like for me to answer in a future episode.

Or a guest you'd like to suggest.

You can find me at keithfoskey .com.

And you can send me an email directly from there.

Many of you have been doing that.

And I've been super duper grateful for you guys who are reaching out.

One last thing, I'm in the Theo shed today.

Which is great because I have my movie posters and everything.

But a fly has followed me in here.

So if you see the fly following around.

Please make sure to comment and say, I saw the fly.

Because I hate it.

But it's a real problem.

And it's something that I keep seeing in Buzz.

And I can't fix it.

I can't catch him because I'm too slow.

But anyway, none of that matters.

But what does matter is my guest.

And my guest today is my friend Michael.

He is also known as the Honest Youth Pastor.

Michael, I want to thank you for being on the show with me today.

Thanks for having me on the show.

Also, I've got to say this before we get too much further.

That is an amazing intro.

I need to come up with something like that.

That is such a good intro.

Well, I appreciate you saying that That's Hans Feeney, Lutheran Satire, singing that.

And I was so grateful when he and I worked together on that.

And he did the music and I did the video.

And it all went together really well.

So, always grateful for Hans and his super talent.

Good deal.

Well, again, thanks for having me, but I loved it.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, you have been on the show one other time.

But the time I had you before I only had you on really to introduce you.

Because you had me on your show.

And I wanted to introduce you and your channel to my audience.

But we only did like 10 or 12 minutes.

And it was really just like a short introduction.

And so, I'm glad we get an opportunity today to talk more.

And I want you to tell everyone a little bit about yourself.

But before you do, I want to kind of give everybody.

Why.

I thought we could have a great conversation today.

Very recently, somebody sent me a message and said Hey, Honest Youth Pastor, which is your

channel.

Is responding to one of your sermons.

And I was like, oh, okay.

And I didn't know if it was going to be a good response.

Or a bad response.

I was hoping it would be positive.

And it really was.

And I want you to know something.

I was super encouraged by the words that you said.

Even on the things that weren't.

You gave me a few critiques here and there.

And I was grateful for that.

And I just want you to know As a person who is always trying to

represent the Word of God well Preach the Word of God well.

To hear someone give positive feedback.

And encouraging feedback Really meant a lot to me.

So just right away I want to tell you how much I appreciate that.

Oh, good.

I'm glad that you got that from it.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

I know you're I think you're a Wesleyan.

Is that the correct way of saying it?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, yes, I'm ordained in the Wesleyan Church.

Me and the Wesleyan Church have a few differences That we're working through.

But yes, I'm ordained in the Wesleyan Church.

Even though I don't hold to all of the stuff currently.

But anyway, yes I run a YouTube channel and an Instagram page Called The Honest

Youth Pastor.

It started.

I won't go into the whole long story.

But it started from a transition.

Out of a youth ministry position.

Into more of a lay leader position.

For a little bit.

And then just like Basically an associate pastor.

It's not by name.

But that's essentially function.

At my local church.

And so The channel itself Started off as me not having a clue what I was doing.

I just wanted to make some videos.

Comment on Christian culture.

Stuff like that.

And then it really started narrowing down.

When I started I asked one day Hey, does anybody You know, anybody interested in maybe

Working through a sermon?

Because I always did that in my car anyway.

Every job I've had I've had to drive a super long way to get there.

And so to pass the time.

It was always listening to sermons And try to.

Honestly, it started as trying to develop My skill a little bit better.

And then I started hearing some stuff.

Like, I don't like that.

I like that I don't like that.

And then I put it up.

The first one I ever did was on Mike Todd.

And that did like really well.

And people had some really good feedback.

And so we've just been doing it ever since.

And that's basically the YouTube thing.

With a couple other things mixed in.

So.

Yeah.

And you say we Is it just you or you.

Or do you have a co -host or.

Hey.

Well, we do a babbling pastor podcast Where we comment on Christian culture stuff too.

And my friend Rob does that.

And I use we.

Because my wife Is very generous to allow enough time To do these sermon reviews If you

guys ever watch them.

Maybe they're two hours sometimes long And that is a good portion of the day That I could be

doing some other things.

But it's We kind of carve that out To allow for that to happen.

So.

Yeah.

And I appreciate you giving your time to us today.

And that's true.

You know, oftentimes I'll say Hey, give us.

Give us a call or send us an email.

I am talking about my wife and I.

She helps out with the show a lot.

And helps me write the little skits that I do.

And I'm grateful to have a partner in the ministry.

That I also can call my best friend and my wife.

So that's great.

That's awesome.

Well, before we get to the How to judge a sermon portion.

Because that is the main part of today's show.

Because you do come from the Wesleyan background.

I do want to just ask for just a few thoughts On what's going on right now In the Methodist church.

Now, you're not a Methodist.

But.

I've been making some comments On social media recently About the 2024 General Conference The

accepting in of the homosexual clergy.

Which was really just another step Toward what we already knew they were going toward.

It's not a big surprise.

But did you have any thoughts about That from a Wesleyan perspective.

And maybe from You know.

Just from that in general.

Yeah.

Well, what's interesting is My mom and dad Do go to a United Methodist.

Well, they used to go to a United Methodist church.

Their church actually was part of The chunk of people that purchased their own churches.

And then kind of Some of them went to the new denomination Which I don't even know what it's called My mom and dad's church just kind of Is

their own thing now.

So it was interesting to hear Everything that they had to go through In prep for this.

There was a lot of steps and everything That they had to go through to do that.

And it did.

What's interesting is The Wesleyans.

Because, I mean, we're basically Brother -sister denominations.

I mean, in all reality It did get a lot of pastors talking Because they're going.

I mean, they see the trajectory.

And the reality is Though they're not Obviously the Wesleyans In certain parts of the country Aren't as

liberal as The United Methodist got.

They do see that there are parts Within the conference that are.

And so they started talking about Well, what does that mean for us then?

And so that got a lot of pastors If any good came out of it.

It got more conservative Wesleyan churches thinking If this happens What course of

action do we have?

Because our denominational handbook Pretty much outlines that If you decide to leave Good luck to you.

You can't buy the church.

You're just going to have to Give it all back to us and go.

Which is interesting too.

Because a lot of the people That I talk to That go to Wesleyan churches That are members of Wesleyan churches Don't realize

That they don't own that building.

They don't own the property.

They take care of it.

And they pay tithes to upkeep it.

But they don't own it.

And so that really got A lot of people thinking about.

Wow, we didn't know this part About all of the ownership Denominational part What does happen.

So it's at least If any good came from it At least got people thinking That direction of What are

we going to do.

When if this happens?

So that's been interesting To hear those conversations.

Yeah, absolutely.

And one other topical thing I mentioned to you before the show I was going to ask you about this.

You had posted about the Harrison Buckner situation.

And you said that That you thought it was A product of feminism

Making its way into the church.

And I'm not putting words.

In your mouth.

That was something you said And I 100 % agree with you.

And that's why I wanted To just chat for a second about it.

Because I would say And I wanted to see if you agree with me I would say that part of What we are seeing In the Methodist

church Is the feminization Of the church in general And the byproduct of that Of a

long period of time Where men have really not Stood in the position of leadership At least men not

being men.

They're allowing for a feminization And a feminine takeover Of their denomination.

You think I'm out to lunch on that?

Or you think that's kind of a.

No, I don't think so.

I grew up in Depending on where we were at.

At the time that my dad Had different jobs.

We were either in Free Methodists United Methodists Wesleyan churches.

And I know growing up There was a very.

Lack.

I just remember as a kid If anything was going to happen The women were leading it If there was

anything That was going to be built Done, whatever It was going to be the women doing it.

And it's not that I have an issue with that.

There's lots of Very strong theologically sound women That can do things And lead things.

I don't have an issue with that.

But it was every part of the church And every guy Was just sort of in the back Doodling

on their little The kid's bulletin And you're like What are you.

Just as a teenager I was like, what are you doing?

Like, aren't you supposed to be Doing something here?

And even growing up I remember I remember when I first heard A message from a pastor That was like very

Just strongly worded Like it was just to the point And straightforward.

And I thought, wow I've never heard preaching Like this before.

Because growing up In the denomination I mean, not that Like all of the sermons Are feminine or whatever But none of

They're very much catered to To women.

Because that's the majority Of the congregation 90 of the women That went to the churches I grew up with

Their husband either Didn't come with them.

Or if he did He was just kind of there.

And so I remember Whenever I went To college And kind of got out Of those churches I was like, wow Like

there's There's men out Doing things They're leading things They're taking Ownership and part In this.

That was totally new to me Growing up in All of those churches Those years.

So that's my point.

Like I'm not just saying that To be like, oh, feminism.

I'm just saying like I saw it firsthand And I saw what it looks like Whenever that's not What's going on.

So like you said It's not really a surprise.

Because if you watch Any of the United Methodist Church videos, sermons There's usually Some old dudes there.

There's hardly Any ever young guys at all.

And they're all Just sitting back And they're just sort of like Repeating whatever They're told to do.

And that's just Sort of their stance.

And.

Yeah, that's just The general sense Of everything I grew up with.

So that's why.

That's why I said What I said Not to be shocking Or whatever But just to be like That's just the reality of it.

Is that.

That's that's.

That's how you get here And that's why I think The reaction In general Online

From Christian women And some Christian men Oddly enough Was like, how dare he It's like, I don't know guys Like

I think you're You're thinking Through a lens That isn't really Biblical here.

Not that again I would agree with everything He said in that speech But I think that You know.

That's that's.

That was my take.

So.

No, and I agree.

And I think that the.

You know, I don't Neither one of us Would say that.

It's.

That women shouldn't do Anything in the church Or anything like that.

Or women shouldn't have A role to play.

And we love women.

I love my wife As I said earlier She helps me a lot With this show.

It's the issue of.

Of.

Men not doing.

What men should be doing.

And really.

That's.

That's the danger.

Well, Michael We're going to take Just a second.

I have a quick commercial That I throw in here.

This is to remind people About the most important message Which is the gospel.

And then we're going.

To come back.

And talk about How we judge sermons.

So be right back with you.

Hey guys.

I just want to quickly say Thank you for watching This episode.

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If you'd like to support us You can go to BuyMeACoffee .com Slash YourCalvinist And leave a donation.

Most importantly We want to make sure That everybody who hears This podcast Hears the gospel.

The word gospel Means good news.

And that good news Has to be preceded By some bad news.

And the bad news Is this That we are all sinners.

Sin is breaking God's law So we stand guilty Before the Lord Of the universe.

But the good news is God sent his son Into the world To pay the penalty For everyone Who would believe in him.

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And he calls us all To repent of our sin To turn from our unbelief And trust in him As Lord and Savior.

And if you've never done that I encourage you to do so today.

Now back to the show.

Alright.

So When we talk about The subject of Judging a sermon

Right away.

The The.

Faithful to the text.

These are questions that we all have to ask.

And my initial question to you is, where do you even start with that?

What's your first initial thoughts when I say, how do you judge a sermon?

What are some of the things that you right away tell people are important?

Well, we have three things that we look at in every sermon review in case no one's ever seen it.

And really the reason I boiled into these three is because when I started doing these reviews, people were

like, I like what you're doing, but there's no metric.

It all falls back on your preference.

I was like, yeah, that's a good point.

And so after kind of workshopping it a little bit to make sure that I wasn't just judging people based on how I felt

about them, we got it down to, hey, when I prepare a sermon, what are the things that are in there?

What are the things that should be in there?

And so, I mean, the very basics and people rightly comment all the time, like this is the lowest bar possible and they're

right, but the idea is you gotta start somewhere.

So do they read scripture?

And we're not just talking about one verse, we're talking about, do they read it within the context of what's happening?

And then that goes on the second point, are they exegeting it?

Which again is just, hey, are they bringing out the context and the culture of what's happening in that text and bringing it out to the

modern believer?

And then lastly, do they preach the gospel at all in there?

Because we can have a lot of really cool things that the Bible teaches us, but if we don't understand the gospel, why even

apply these things?

They're just moral teachings or there's things like that.

And so the idea is that breaking it down to those three things is that at least gives us a good guideline to determine

is what somebody's saying at least decently aligned with what scripture is saying or

are they kind of going off and left though?

Because it's really interesting that if you don't think about those three things and you're just sitting there and listening, it's

really easy to think that somebody preached a real good sermon when they didn't really touch any of those things at all.

It was motivational and it was really inspiring and it was encouraging, but it wasn't really biblical if you actually

dig down to it, so.

You know, one of the books that I read that was very useful to me in my early ministry

was by a pastor named Stephen Kreloff and he became my friend.

Stephen and I are friends today.

He's a pastor in Tampa, Florida and we are in the same

church network.

Well, he wrote a book called Expository Preaching, just simple little small book,

but he said expository preaching is read the text, explain the text, apply the text.

That was his three points.

So when I heard you on your podcast, I said, you know, it's funny that you also begin with read the text.

And he has a whole chapter on the value of reading scripture publicly

and the fact that, you know, the Bible tells us to give attention to the public reading of God's

word.

And we see this modeled for us in the Old Testament and we see it, you know, obviously

commanded in the New Testament.

So do you listen to sermons?

Cause it seems like you probably listen to quite a few.

I know I listen to sermons, but I tend to listen to sermons that are

maybe ones that I'm gonna need for helping me or the ones that I'm wanting to learn from.

So I don't tend to listen to a lot of bad sermons.

So I think you might have a more balance on that listening to good and bad.

Do you hear a lot of guys who don't use the text at all, who don't read the text?

Not really, what I find, and this is just consistent amongst, I would say the bad ones,

is that people are, and I don't wanna ever judge anybody's heart by them being intentionally deceitful.

So I was gonna say, they're just kind of, this is maybe the way they've been taught.

But what you'll often have is people that will read a section of text.

Like most people don't do two verses anymore.

That, when I started doing this six years ago, maybe longer, I don't know how long I've been doing this,

there was a lot more of like one -liner verses.

It seems like, I don't know who's teaching who or who's picking up on what, but they seem like they're very much

shifting to reading a section of scripture now.

And then that being sort of like the, oh no, I did that.

I read the Bible like I was supposed to.

And then diving into like maybe a verse or using that scripture to pivot or jump into their

own point now.

So it's not like you won't see a lot of people read a section anymore.

There's a few that will still just do kind of one or two lines.

But most people that I listened to, both good and bad, will read a nice little section.

It's really what happens after that.

That's the help to determine.

Because I think that's what throws a lot of people off.

They're like, well, they read the Bible, so that must be good.

And so I don't think, I don't hear a lot of sermons anymore where people aren't reading scripture.

The real question is where do they pivot after they read that and what do they do with it?

Yeah, years ago, I visited a church.

They had asked me to come do some music during a revival service.

And it was a Pentecostal church, but it was related through my mom.

My mom was a member or had gone to the church.

And so I was doing the music.

And then after I did the music, the man who was preaching the revival came up to the pulpit.

He opened up his Bible.

He took a deep breath.

And then he closed his Bible.

He didn't even read.

He just closed his Bible.

And he said, I had a passage I was gonna read, but God told me that

somebody here needs a touch from the Lord.

And this lady in the back goes, ah, and just screams and runs forward.

And he met her at the bottom of the chancel steps and he grabbed her head and

she fell down.

And then everybody started coming forward.

It was really not what I was expecting at all, but there was no public reading of scripture at all.

And I was just stunned.

So it does happen, I guess, from my experience, at least once, yeah.

Yeah, well, a lot more in, I guess online, I don't hear it a whole lot.

When I, there's times where like we travel or stuff and we'll just go to some random church.

Or this happens to be honest with you a lot in Wesleyan churches growing up, or like, you know, when we visit

other churches, where somebody will go like, you know, I have a scripture and then the Lord changed it this morning.

And I'm like, what?

And then they just go off on this whole thing.

And I'm like, well, if the Lord changes this morning, you've not prepared, you don't have a clue what's going on and God helped you, Holy Spirit,

please help this person get through this message because they clearly don't know what's going on.

Yeah, that happens a lot.

I have a person to person question, because you preach and you've been a

preacher for a while.

So I wanna ask if it's ever happened to you, because I do know that,

you know, I've been preaching for, you know, a full time since 2006.

So it's 18 years now.

I do know that there have been precious few times where I've ever changed my message shortly before the service,

but it has happened.

I know at least once, but has that ever happened to you where you were going to preach one thing and then you preach something

else?

There have been a handful of times where I've been working on a sermon, because I

always start at the Monday of the week, the week before the Sunday.

And there have been times where it's just not coming together.

Like I'm working on it, I'm working on it, I'm working on it, it gets to Thursday and I'm like, I don't know what's gonna happen.

And at that point, there's, I mean, again, as you probably know, a lot of working through the sermon is that there's a lot of prayer, there's a lot of

study, there's a lot of digging in.

And so by Thursday, I'm just like, Lord, this is gonna be terrible if this is what we're going

for here, if this is what we're working with.

And there have been times where there have been things that come up either through devotional or through,

again, maybe I'm just listening to a sermon to listen to it.

And then the sermon just falls together quicker than it normally does before.

It doesn't happen a lot.

It has happened though.

And I usually know that that's probably gonna end up happening if it's just been a rough Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

And it's just going, this is just, I can't make this thing.

I don't, I can't, it's just not, it's not working.

It has happened occasionally.

Never the Sunday morning of has that ever occurred to me.

But yeah, it's happened before a few times.

What is your, cause I start on Monday too.

A lot of pastors I know don't start, they'll take Monday off, you know, Monday's their day off,

but I've always just felt the need to work on Monday.

I just like Monday morning, eight o 'clock, I get up, I go into the office.

But what is your method?

Are you a, cause I don't know if I, I don't know if, are you, do you preach every week?

And if you do, are you preaching through books?

Are you, or do you preach different times?

How does that work for you?

Yeah, so for the way we have our setup, I preach the last Sunday of every month, or if something happens on that Sunday, it's

usually the Sunday before.

So it's once a month.

So that's what, that's how our schedule works out as far as at my church.

And so we don't, because it is a Wesleyan church, we don't preach through books, but I do try to,

if I know I'm going to be like back to back because something's happening, I'll try to stick in that same thing just to kind of

keep that consistency to show like, hey, we can do this.

But we typically don't, but I do preach expository through a set of scriptures as

far as how, like what my method, my method is.

Yeah, and just to be clear for people who are listening, you don't have to preach verse by, you don't have to preach through books to preach

expository preaching.

I think people get that confused.

People think expository preaching means preaching through books.

No, you can do an expository one -off sermon.

As long as it's exposing what the text says, as long as it's getting, as long as it's preaching the thought and the

idea of the text, rather than imposing upon the text something that's not there, then it's expository

preaching.

So that's true.

So, and you also, you said it's Wesleyan, so you don't do that.

Is that consistent in Wesleyan churches?

Are you joking or?

No, no, Wesleyan churches in general do not preach through books at all.

I've never attended a Wesleyan church that has.

Typically it's whatever the pastor wants to preach on.

Whenever I found out that Lutherans had a book that told them what they were gonna preach on, I was like, that's, what is that?

That's crazy.

And so even in college, I went to a Wesleyan college, we were not taught to preach that way.

I mean, we were taught basic, obviously hermeneutics, exegetical, all that stuff, but it was never like you should preach through books.

It was always, it's very topical driven.

So again, when I talked about coming out of like a Methodist Wesleyan church and hearing other people preach, it was insane

to me because I had never heard somebody, typically, again, I'm not saying no, Wesleyan works expositionally through the scripture.

I'm just saying in general, it's heavily topical.

And so to find out there was another way to do this, that I was just

completely, it blew my mind that that was the thing.

Yeah, interesting.

So, all right, so it's Monday morning and you have to preach on Sunday.

And I know this is getting a little off topic because I know we're talking about how to judge sermons, but part of judging, I think comes to

the point of looking at, how has this man put this together?

Like, how did this come together?

And so you are starting on Monday morning, you're choosing a text.

How do you, do you pray and go lucky dipping?

You open your Bible and point.

I'm just kidding.

I know you don't do that, but how do you come to the conclusion, okay, this is what I need

to preach?

Well, luckily for me, like I said, I preach once a month.

So that gives me a good three weeks of me just reading the scriptures, being in the scriptures, just studying them.

And so typically for me, the text will come from that, just that practice.

I don't know what I would do if I had to preach every Sunday.

I, well, I would just do books.

I would just do books.

That would be what I would defaultly do.

But for me, I'm in the scripture, I'm studying it.

Something comes up.

I preached a few sermons before based on the facts of how butchered a text has been in a sermon I've reviewed.

And I'm just doing that one then.

And so my method is basically that.

What have I been studying?

What's come up?

I have a lot of conversations with people at my job and at the church.

And sometimes if there's something that seems like it needs to be maybe dug into a little bit, we'll do that, so.

Yeah.

So you have a senior pastor.

Does he want to know what you're preaching on?

Does he ever warn you?

I don't want you to go this direction, that direction.

And I'm just curious from the perspective of how your relationship is with him.

Because the year before I became the preaching pastor, our former senior pastor was my

administrative pastor, but I preached every Sunday.

So he was still there.

And he had been my pastor for years.

And every week I would talk to him about what I was going to preach.

And he would even look at my notes.

He would sometimes give them back to me with red marks, but it was never theological.

He was an English teacher and he would mark through my grammar.

But that was just his way.

But how's your relationship with your pastor?

Does it work that way or how does it work?

So at first there was a lot.

Like again, so when I came to that church, he knew the church we had come out of.

And so he knew I'd been the youth pastor there and he knew, again, not to get in the big, long story, but kind of what had happened.

And so he was very gracious for probably the first year and a half, two years to just let me be there and sit and just

be a part of the church.

And then one Sunday he did ask, hey, would you be interested in preaching one of these Sundays for me?

And I said, yes, of course, because my thing kind of through that whole process was God, I am not going to seek this out.

If you want to do it, you're going to have to like send somebody along to encourage because I'm not putting myself back in that situation.

And so he did very graciously through Dave and Dave doesn't do it anymore where he comes down and like,

hey, what's your notes?

What are you preaching on?

At first, obviously he did do that because you're handing somebody your pulpit.

You want to know that they're not going to go crazy on you.

And so we have a relationship now of just of trust of like, okay, what are you preaching on?

I'll let him know the text.

And then there's a trust that you're going to handle this right now because we've been going there for nearly 10 years.

And so he knows kind of my style.

He knows the process.

He knows all of that.

And where I'm really lucky is that not only do I have Dave, the church that I came from,

again, not to get into the whole story, but one of my ex pastors, the pastor that actually retired from that church goes to this

current church that I'm at too.

And then I have another pastor that has retired that goes there too.

So I have a lot of guys that have been incredibly helpful.

I mean, just a wealth of information of like, hey, that was really good.

You could have said this may be different or like, that was great.

Thanks for digging into that point.

And so that's helpful.

I don't think a lot of guys have that.

And I'm incredibly blessed to have that to where when I do get down or when I am preaching, I'll look at like Steve's one of the guys.

I'm like, am I a heretic?

Okay, I'm not great.

All right.

And so we'll just do it.

And so it's just really interesting to have that dynamic too, to where you have just a wealth of

ministry experience there to help you grow and to get better too.

Yeah.

So your next, after you've, going back to the sermon, judging a sermon, we want the person to have read the text, then we want them

to exegete the text.

When you are doing your exegetical work, you're in, I'm assuming this is your Monday routine, right?

When you're preaching and you're doing your Monday, Tuesday routine.

I don't know how long you spend on your sermons.

You know, I preach multiple times per week.

So I have to measure out my time.

Usually Monday and Tuesday is when I'm studying and preparing for Sunday.

So it's, you know, two days of that.

So what does your exegetical work look like?

I mean, do you, I know what I do.

I begin with a piece of paper.

I write the text out, then I go back to the original language, write the original language out.

And that's, that's sort of my method.

What is, what's your method for that part?

So mine is going to be probably really weird to almost everyone listening.

Like I said, I, first of all, I drive really far to work, but I'm also a driver.

I am a delivery driver, just as far as vocation goes.

And so I don't have the luxury of being able to sit down to write.

So I've had to kind of adapt my method to what can I do as I'm driving here.

And so typically if I have a text, let's say it's, let's just say it's Matthew 7, 8 or whatever.

And so what I'm going to do, because I do have the luxury of having a lot of time on my hands, I'm going to listen to

Matthew 1 through 7.

So I'm just listening to that a whole bunch, a few times through, just because again, I'm not reading, I'm having to listen to it.

And so I'm listening a few times through, what's popping out, just trying to make mental notes of what, hey, I want to go back to

that.

I'm screenshotting a lot of verses on my phone just to make sure, hey, that's a note, go back to that.

And then I listen to what comes after that.

And so that way, just, I'm just getting the general quick layover context, a lot of Monday, just listening,

listening, listening, listening.

And then usually Tuesday, those notes, those screenshots, those things that stuck out, like I need to dig into that a little bit more.

I'm probably going to need to explain that a little bit more.

That would be when I kind of probably get into Logos, go through the languages, go through the context a little bit.

Is there anything that, I mean, as you probably know, when you go through this a lot, eventually you just have sort of that, sort of

knowledge already in there going, okay, I know what that talk about, you're not doing it for the first time.

And so a lot of it, you kind of have that built in knowledge of context, what's going on, where this is happening, and just sort of piecing that

together.

Because for me, when I'm preaching to these people, I can't just assume that they're

going to know what I'm talking about and where these places are and who these people are or any of that.

So I'm going to have to kind of build this story out a little bit so that they are caught up on what's going on, especially if I'm starting

five, six chapters in.

And so that's Monday process, listening, Tuesday, really digging into what do I need to draw out here, what needs to be said

so that they kind of understand why whatever's happening in this passage is happening, whatever's being said is being said.

And so we can build this story up a little bit for them so that when we get to this text, not only are we going to dive

into these words or this situation or this correction or this encouragement or whatever's happening, they have

an understanding, a lot more robust understanding of like, these words just aren't words on a page.

Like this is an entire world that's been built here that these are being said.

So whether it's the Psalms and we kind of have to build that out or whether it's like Colossians and just the whole, like how did

that letter even get there?

Just giving them that, like the word of God is alive, it's active, like it got here in a

certain way.

And if you know that story, like for me, like that makes it so much more and more interesting.

And so whenever you do read parts of like we, two sermons ago, I did Colossians

chapter one verses one through 13 and getting there.

So when Paul's telling them, hey, we're praying for you, we love you, like we want you to be able to build up, like where's

he coming from when he says this to a people that he doesn't know, like he's just sending them back and

he's talking to, the fact that you even have Philemon kind of in there in that whole mix and it

ties into what's said in, I mean, it's just so interesting.

So that's the whole, I know it's a long, long answer, but the idea is to build that out

so that when we get my ideas, how do I build this story up so they understand what's happening so that when

we explore this text, like we know why it's being said.

And that's the heart of exegesis, right?

So when a person is sitting in the pew, I think

that in many ways, no matter their level of maturity or education, I think they can

know whether or not that work has been done.

I think there's at least some sense in which they can hear a person begin to talk

about this text and they can hear, okay, this guy knows this text or he doesn't.

I'll give you an example.

Very early on in my ministry, I had the opportunity, it's when I met Steve Kreloff, I mentioned him earlier, the book that he wrote.

And the first time I met him was at a Founders Conference, I think it was 2006, so it was very,

very early.

And I remember hearing him preach, I think it was the book of Ephesians, I think it was in Ephesians chapter four.

And the first 10 minutes of his sermon, which is about a 40, 45 minute sermon, the first 10 minutes of his sermon

was walking through Ephesians one to four to show us how he got to chapter

four, how you get to this argument that Paul's making or this point that Paul's making in chapter four, because he's

made this point and he's made this point and he's made this point.

And this is how we've gotten here.

And if you're not preaching verse by verse, book by book, which you're not, if you're at a conference, you know, that was his

method.

Like this was to bring you up to speed.

And that sounds kind of like what you were just talking about.

In the sermons that you listen to, do you find that that's often missing?

Yes, I do.

And that's why I really want to, I mean, because I see part of what I'm doing in here is trying just to train people

to listen for things.

And hopefully for pastors that are learning to preach or trying to get better or refine their method, like, hey, if you don't do

this, like consider it.

Because it often isn't done.

Most of the sermons, fortunately, that I listen to are often,

the whole big point is about you and you applying something.

And that's fine and that's great because there is application to be had.

But if we just skip right to that, like I could get that from anybody.

You could tell me to do something that's good and this is why you should do it and here's the benefits of doing it.

And that's great.

That makes, anybody can do that.

But to understand like why the word of God says to do that and how it ties into you specifically as a

Christian needing to do this really can only be kind of taken out

of the huge well of information you have of why this was written in the first place.

And I think that's where we kind of get off on doctrine and things like that is that if you're just jumping

in with your opinion on here and you're not bringing in the wealth of information that brought us this letter to begin with,

it's really easy to go left field real fast because you're not asking the questions that really should be asked.

And unfortunately that doesn't happen a lot in the sermons I listen to.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So for the person who is in the pew and they're hearing the person

not do this and maybe this is their pastor, maybe this is somebody who they're

preaching.

I wanna be careful what I'm about to say because normally I don't encourage people to go

running and leaving churches because I'll have people message me, hey, this is happening in my church, should I leave the church?

This is happening, should I be looking for a better church?

And my answer is usually no.

I mean, unless there's sin going on, sin being promoted, if you're in a church that God has led you to

and there's people there who care for your soul and the pastor who cares for your soul, you know, he wants to be better.

You know, he wants to do well.

I know very few pastors who I don't think care, you know, and most guys, especially pastors of small

churches are doing it because they love the Lord.

They're doing it, they're not doing it for the money.

They're not doing it for the glory.

They're doing it for Jesus and they're doing it for the people who are sitting in the pews, whether it be 25 or 35

or 55 or 105.

They're doing it because of the people that are in front of them.

Is there a way to encourage somebody?

And I'm thinking about this for my own self.

Is there a way to encourage somebody if that's not what they're doing to without sounding overly

critical, is there a way to say, hey, you know, could you tell us more about this?

I don't know.

Have you ever thought about that?

Yeah.

So I've had people message very similar messages.

And I, when I first started getting that, I thought, oh wow, okay.

I do not want to stand before Jesus one day and be like, I made these people leave.

And so I think what I usually tell people is like, hey, basically what you said, I think a lot of the times,

and I can identify this again, coming out of the Wesleyan church, not hearing any other messages and then hearing these other, I think a

lot of the time, it's the way people have been trained.

They don't know that there maybe is a different way to do it.

Like, even if they, again, I mean, I went to college, did the exegesis, hermeneutics, preaching classes, all that,

homiletics.

And then you go to the local church and usually you start mimicking, the people that you

admire and you try to develop your own thing.

And sometimes you just fall into a certain way.

And a lot of the pastors that I talked to, they're younger, that are really trying to develop their voice.

One of the, that's one of the things I tell them, like you're eventually, you're going to kind of get your own voice, but like just make sure it's

not missing these things.

And I think the best way that I've seen this happen, to be honest with you, is pastors that

maybe don't do this, listening to pastors that do do it that way and going, oh, wow.

Like, okay, there, I maybe do need to incorporate this.

And I don't know if there's a gentle way to nudge people into doing that.

But I've seen, I mean, I know pastors, won't name them on obviously here, but I know pastors that I'm very close to, that

preached a certain way.

And when they started hearing like, oh, wow, okay, you're adding this, or this person's adding that, or like, I'm hearing this,

like, and then without even having conversations with these people, like you start noticing that they're

working it into their sermons.

And again, like you said, they're not bad preachers.

They don't hate, they love these people and they're using the tools they've been given.

And so I think when you're introduced to these other tools that you see are helpful, that do enhance the message,

that people do seem to be able to learn a lot more from, you just start naturally

in, sort of adding that to your toolbox, saying like, how can I incorporate that in what I'm doing?

I think that's the best way, is you just see somebody else do it and you go like, I don't do that.

And I probably should do that because there's benefit in that.

Now, if they don't do that, I think, because again, there have been people that have messaged me like, how do I talk to my pastor?

Because I don't want him to think that I'm being offensive to him.

And I think a lot of it is just asking questions like, hey, you mentioned, we preached out a Philippians today.

Like I had a question, like, why did Paul write to the Philippians?

Just asking those questions, because I think as again, as pastors, I think we're all looking for feedback.

We're all looking to get better.

We're just not sometimes thinking the way the congregation is thinking.

And so we know why Philippians was written.

We know what's going on.

We've done all that background work.

And maybe sometimes pastors don't include it because they're like, that's going to take too long.

But if we understand that our congregation actually needs to think, they don't know, like we're putting a lot of assumption that

they know a lot of the things we're talking about when they don't.

And so if congregations start going like, just, hey, tell me a little bit about that.

That plants some seeds there in a very non -confrontational way of just like, you are interested, you do want to know.

And that sort of builds in over time.

I think this development of thought of like, people keep asking, I think I should probably maybe just put that in there too.

And so I think there's a lot of ways to do it.

That's not like, you're bad, you're terrible, we're leaving.

I think there's just nice ways to come alongside somebody and be like, I'm interested in it.

I know these people are too.

And just asking those questions.

So.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

And certainly, yeah, don't go to your pastor and say, you're not as good as John MacArthur.

Don't do that.

That's not helpful.

That's not gonna be encouraging.

You've wrecked the man's whole week.

That's right.

That's right.

But I tell you, I'm always encouraged when I get people asking me questions.

Like you just said, if somebody came up after the sermon and said, hey, in this text today, you said this, what does

this mean?

Or can you explain this more?

And I'm like, man, I'm glad somebody's listening.

I mean, out of the people that are in the church, how many people are tracking?

And if they're tracking enough to ask questions, that's encouraging for real.

So yeah, that's very pastoral.

That was a good thought.

So when it comes to the last part, your last part is making

sure that the gospel is preached.

And that sort of goes with the third in Kreloff's book, which is read the text,

explain the text, which is exegesis, and then apply the text, which should always at some point, bring

us back to the exaltation of Christ, which is in the gospel.

So I find, and I know when I teach hermeneutics, I find that

one of the things that people want, they want the application first without doing the exegetical work.

They wanna jump right to application and their sermons tend to be application heavy.

But where do you find the biggest issues in application other than maybe just an

overemphasis on me, me, me?

Yeah, I think sometimes

there's obviously usually an overemphasis on me, me, me,

but I think the why is a huge thing that's usually missed.

Like you're telling me, for example, that I should be kind to people or I shouldn't gossip or this, that,

or the other thing.

And I think the why is missed out.

Like you're saying the Bible says so, great.

Like, and I know I shouldn't, but the emphasis on why is usually missed.

And the why is because you're a believer changed by the gospel and you ought to live in a certain way in

light of the gospel.

And I mean, within the Wesleyan tradition, we talk about, well, the good churches talk about sanctification all the

time, about how you're just being, you're continually being sanctified.

And this idea of like, if that's an issue, like this is a sanctifying process for you.

Like you're recognizing it, you're going to the Lord with it.

And I think the why, that's the why part.

If you don't include the, this is why you should be doing this, this is why you should care.

And the why is always the gospel.

And usually, and one of the reasons I always say preach the gospel is because my assumption is there's gonna be somebody in there that either, A,

doesn't believe and is open about that.

They don't care, they don't believe that they're here because somebody invited them or they're interested.

Or two, they think they're saved and they're really not.

They've not actually, they've just grown up in church or they've done the thing and they think they are.

Or three, they're genuinely a believer and they're in there.

And the idea is if I'm preaching the gospel at some point, either through the text or I know pastors, there's actually

somebody that is part of our Patreon that part of that is like, you know, listening to sermons, how can we get better at preaching

some of the pastors that subscribe to that?

And so he always just put the flat out gospel on the end.

Like he always just did, and he just pops it at the end every time.

Not that everybody needs to do that, but I appreciate that because it's one of those things, if it doesn't come out in the text defaultly, here

it is, right?

So it's one of those things where like, if you don't know Jesus, if your life doesn't reflect this text at all, here's the

gospel.

But a lot of the times I think the gospel is just sort of, like you said, if it's done well, it's sort of interwoven with that

application because now you're understanding why does this matter to me?

Why should I do live in this sort of way?

This because again, the gospel, you've been changed by Jesus.

So I think we just, and I know even early on as

learning to preach, and I don't want to say that they taught us this way because I honestly, I don't know, it's been so long, but there

was a huge emphasis on, you have to apply the tag.

Like you have to tell them, do this, do that thing.

And there was an under emphasis on like, because Jesus changed you.

I think sometimes we just assume they know that and they don't, so.

It's interesting because I've seen two extremes on that.

There's the extreme on one side that says, application is the Holy Spirit's work.

Therefore, I just have to preach the text and the Spirit will apply it to each person as he sees fit.

And I've heard that.

I mean, I've heard that.

So application is very narrow.

And then of course, there's where everything is application and very little exegesis.

So I do think, I think application has its place.

And I think, as you said, it's, it's very important part of the preaching

process.

It can be the hard part though.

It can be, some texts, I know one of my elders and I were talking about this recently.

Sometimes the application of the text is God is great.

Like, or God is, this is what we learned from this is something about the nature of God.

And it doesn't necessarily apply in your immediate go and do life, but

it's something about the greatness of God, which should affect how we go and do everything.

Is that we serve a great God.

Yeah.

Well, I call that sort of the pregame thing a little bit.

What I mean by that is like, I just preached on Psalm 42 and 43, knowing that there's people in my church that are not in deep sorrow, do not

feel far from God.

And what I try to explain in a lot of sermons is like, this may not be for you now, but you better be prepped for when it is

you.

And so I think like, you're talking about like, God is good.

Like you hear that.

And I try to really, whenever the text is just God is good, back up and be like, you know that now.

You're gonna really need to know that later.

And so like, I think that that, like you said, even if it's just God is good, it's like, but remember that

for later, cause you're gonna need it later.

Absolutely.

Well, I have one other question for you.

And this is just sort of how the sausage is made.

Oh, I said, I have one more question.

I also have my fast five at the end.

There's a fast five fun that we do at the end.

And those are fun questions.

And this is how we close out the show.

But one more serious question before we get to the fast five.

And that is the question of when you're preparing sermons and let's say you're preaching on, you said

Matthew seven or whatever, in your prep for the week, is there ever a time where you

listened to other people preach that text to not to, and I know that the danger that

people are gonna say, oh, that can lead to plagiarism and things like that.

But do you ever listen to other people preach that text for the purpose of helping you in your understanding of that text?

And what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so that I do do that occasionally if the sermon has come together well enough and fast enough that I have

time to do that.

When I first started preaching, that was like, unfortunately my first step.

And that was a terrible thing to do.

I've swapped it towards my very last.

And so like, and it has been helpful at times because there are times where I'll get to the end, I'm done, I

think, all right, I've got this thing pretty well buttoned up.

And then I'll listen to, because again, I drive a lot.

And so I'll just, I'll search whatever one comes up.

And I try not to be like, oh, these are my favorite pastors, what'd they say?

I just try to say, hey, Google, here's this, let me see it.

And sometimes that reaffirms that I definitely went the right way because this one kind of went a little weird or that like, oh, wow, I

didn't pull out that point there, but I definitely see it and it can be beneficial there.

I'm not gonna make it my main thing, but I'll probably add it as a sort of a note at the end or a

note, sort of a subtext there.

And I think it is helpful.

Again, I think the danger is real that you can let it write your whole sermon if you're not careful or you put it too early in

the process.

But I think it is helpful.

It's been very beneficial to me a number of times where I'll get to the end and go, I just did not, I didn't, maybe I didn't

focus on that specific verse and they did.

And I'll sort of steal that, a little bit of that wisdom there just to kind of put some sprinkles on top of

something I've already done, so.

Yeah, and I'll tell you my thought.

I'm in a similar situation.

I don't drive like you do, but I have an hour round trip every time I go to the church.

It's 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back.

So I go to the church four or five days a week, at least sometimes six days a week.

I'm at the building and I have to redeem that time.

I mean, that's an hour a day that I'm gonna be driving.

And so I tend to listen to either sermons or I listen to books.

I do a lot of books on audio, which is nice.

Speechify has become my best friend.

I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but Speechify is really cool.

Yeah, I had to pick it up.

Whenever I started doing these video essays, I could not read all these people's books.

So yeah, it was, yeah, that's helped a lot.

Yeah, not a sponsor, but I would be happy to sponsor them if they wanted to sponsor the show.

But Speechify is a great program.

But I have found, like I jokingly say sometimes, like John MacArthur, I have all of John

MacArthur's commentaries, but his commentary is just his sermon written down.

I mean, like if you listen to his sermon, it's almost the exact same thing that you're gonna find in the commentary.

But like you, I don't do it at the front end.

All my commentary stuff is later, after I've done the exegetical work, because I don't

want to be influenced before I've had the chance to study for myself.

And then I go to the commentaries or to the sermons or whatever else.

And I say, what's the difference between reading a sermon from Charles Spurgeon or listening to a sermon from R .C. Sproul,

right?

Like it's still somebody else's sermon, you know?

And so, but like I said, the goal is to do the work.

And I think when you do the work yourself, it comes out in the work.

It's yours.

Yeah, people will see that.

Yeah.

Well, brother, I wanna give you a few fun questions because I just enjoy talking to you and we're gonna wrap it up with these.

These are more, like I said, these are more for fun.

Don't have to take it too seriously.

But number one, what story from the Bible do you think

would make the best movie?

But it has to be one that hasn't been done yet.

A story from the Bible that would make the best movie.

Just off the top of my head, for some reason, Balaam and the talkie -talkie is coming to mind.

I don't know.

I mean, do you think?

Go ahead, go ahead, sorry.

I was just going kind of Shrek maybe.

I mean, I guess that's sort of been done a little bit.

I was gonna ask you, do you think that that's where the talkie -talkie came from for Shrek?

Because I don't know any other fairytale that that's based on.

Not that Balaam is a fairytale, but I wonder if that's where the idea came from.

Because every other fairy in Shrek is a fairy story.

You know, the seven dwarves and all that.

But I don't know.

Maybe, I don't know.

There's some church kid somewhere that were like, I got an idea.

Well, I tell her by my, not that you have to know my answer, but my answer to that is always, I would love to see a John Wick

version of the story of Dinah in Genesis when she was

mistreated and then her brothers went and killed the men.

I think a John Wick version of that would be pretty cool.

Yeah, it'd be like dark with like these shadowy overtones happening, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So anyway, that's my weird answer to that one.

All right, do you have a favorite sermon that you've ever heard?

A sermon that would change your life?

The one that comes to mind is, and I don't even know the guy's name.

I know he had a book.

He wrote a book.

I heard it in college.

It was during a chapel.

He wrote a book.

I think it was called something along the lines of like the one thing you can't do in heaven.

And it was about evangelism.

And that one, again, I don't remember the dude's name or even his points, but I do know that that really got me thinking.

It was like, oh, wow.

Like his whole gist was if the gospel is this thing that saves people's souls and they're either gonna be

on the path of life or the path of death, the one thing you can't do in heaven is tell them about it because now it's too late.

And it was all about evangelizing and telling people about who Christ is and what he's done for you.

Again, I don't even remember the sermon.

I just remember that really deeply affected me in college.

Amen.

All right.

The best 80s television show co -starring a vehicle.

Best 80s television show co -starring a vehicle.

There was one with the talking car, right?

I don't even know.

I don't, there's more than one.

How old are you?

I'm 40.

Yes, there were a bunch.

Oh, see, I don't know.

Yeah, it shows.

My parents didn't let me watch a lot of television.

We were a little, so.

Well, you were talking about Knight Rider.

There was also Dukes of Hazzard, Airwolf, A -Team.

All these had a co -star that was somehow a vehicle.

All right.

Chick -fil -A or Popeye's?

If you had to eat a chicken sandwich,.

Chick -fil -A or Popeye's?

Chick -fil -A, but I think the only other chicken sandwich I've had from actual chicken is

Zaxby's.

I don't think I've ever had Popeye's, so we're gonna go with Chick -fil -A.

Okay.

All right, last one.

Would you rather fight one horse -sized duck or a hundred duck -sized horses?

The first one.

At least it's only one.

One.

But have you ever seen how mean ducks are?

Could you imagine a horse -sized duck?

Oh, yeah.

Well, my brother made a goose mad one time, so I do have this really vivid memory of being

chased by a goose, so I don't know.

The size of a horse would be terrifying.

So like a Pegasus.

I'm essentially fighting a Pegasus is what I'm fighting at that point.

Yeah.

I don't think either way is gonna go well for anybody, but -.

I can hide from one animal.

It'd be harder to hide from a hundred animals.

That's right.

Well, Michael, thank you for being on the show today.

As we close out, please tell everyone how they can get ahold of you, how they can find your stuff, and if you have

any projects coming up, tell us all about it.

If you just Google Honest Youth Faster, and you'll find either the YouTube page or the Instagram page,

and then hopefully within the next month, we'll have the next Making of a Minister up.

I can't tell you who it is yet, but I think you're gonna find it really interesting.

So that should be up by hopefully July.

All right, buddy.

Well, thank you again for being a part of the show.

Oh, thanks for having me.

Yep. Yep.

I wanna thank you guys for being a part of the show today.

I wanna remind you again that you can find us and everything you need to get in touch with us at

KeithFoskey .com.

Thank you again for listening to your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey.

My name is Keith Foskey.

I said my name three times.

I'm Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

May God bless you.