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Aftershow: Slick vs Richardson, Baptism Debate
Okay, there we go. It should be good. So everything should be working for the baptism debate between myself and A .K. Richardson. This is the after show debate stuff. So I just put this up. It should be, you know, it should be going.
It should be going fine. It'll take a few minutes for people to come in. And so there you go. And Charlie, I'm gonna email Charlie if he wants to put a shirt on and then come on in. I'll email him so he can come into the StreamYard area if he wants.
So it takes, just give me a minute here. Yeah, I thought it was a good debate. Yeah, there we go. So let's see, 919, sorry. I'm doing all this stuff here really fast. 919 debate StreamYard link. I think that'll be it.
And hey everybody, how are you doing? See charlie at carm .org. All right, if he wants to get in, he's got the link, he can come in. All right, hey, barely showed baptism is required. That was funny. So, you know, what I like to have with this guy is a real discussion where, let's see, woo, look at that.
Press escape to exit full screen. Let's just go to there. Okay, let's have a discussion where we go back and forth as we have into these times, because there's a lot of things that he said that were just not on track.
Made a lot of mistakes. He made a lot of logic errors. And he, you know, when he started using, trying to use logic and begging the question, he didn't quite understand what that was really. So Travis Thomas, thank you.
Didn't do very well. Okay. So I'm assuming you believe baptism is necessary for salvation. Hey, Travis, if you'd like, I could email you and you can come in here and discuss it with me if you'd like. Travis Thomas believes that you have to do something to be saved, apparently, faith and some work.
Way to go, Andrew. All right, I'll call you sometime, my friend. You've been very kind. Okay, Juan. Okay, Juan Poset. Do you speak Spanish? Great job defending the truth. Thank you, man. You did not do very, it's not very well.
Not very, you didn't do good. You'd say, you say, I didn't do well. I thought you said it the right way. Enjoy the debates. Excuse me, Juan. I mean, Joanne. Jesus never says water baptism is required.
That's correct. The thief on the cross disproves the need for water baptism. He couldn't handle that. Also Colossians 2 .14, just sank his boat. Matt, do you invite people in? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you what, I'm gonna give the URL here and anybody wants to come in, but I have control of the room and you won't be able to get in unless I grant it to you.
So we can still control it. Not that, you know, if we don't like it, we're not gonna have you in. It's just that we wanna be able to, you know, control what's going, within reason. You know, that's all.
My heresy heart went off during that debate. AK talks so fast for me to discern everything. Yeah, well, I did too though. You know, he showed me up, Matt. Thank you, Travis. Appreciate that. Hey, Travis, come on in.
Come on in the room here where there's a link right there in the stream yard. You can get right in. You have a microphone. You can talk. You'll have to have a microphone to talk here. If you wanna do that, you don't have to have a camera though.
You know, former Campbellite here. Actually, I'm a direct descendant of Alexander Campbell. Wow. That means deep in it. The Colossians point gets them every time. Yes, it does. Richardson sounded like he was making it up as he went along.
In a couple of places, I thought he was. Colossians 2, my view is if you don't know a text, you're not familiar with it, just say you don't know. And that's okay. You know, I mean, come on, you can't learn everything and can't know everything.
And he should have said, you know what? That's an interesting point. I'm gonna have to study it and get back with you. I would have accepted that. But you know, the point is the sin debts canceled at the cross.
How could it also be canceled at baptism? That is a killer, killer question. Baptism requires three people, the baptizer, the one getting baptized, and Jesus. Jesus is our only mediator. Therefore to require another person in addition to Jesus to be present for salvation is heresy, in my opinion.
Gary, I don't know if the logic is sound. I understand the sentiment. Interesting stuff. Travis, let's get Travis in. And I'm gonna get Andy Kumar in. All dude, man, you look good without any hair on you.
You're going looking good. I don't know about you. I think Andy's got you beat. Okay, so, oh, I get to unlock you? Let's see. I have to unmute you. I think you might have to unmute yourself. Travis, you're making a lot of noise hearing it.
And Andy Kumar, can you hear me? Nod if you can hear me. Okay, yeah, I can't unmute you. Can you hear me? Now it just went on mute. Okay, good, yes.
You wanna add something, Andy? I don't know what you thought. I think you did a great job. So I'm 39 in two weeks. Left the church whenever I was about 22, but had lingering doctrinal issues. And I still even deal with them now a little bit.
But just from having been in it as long as I was, it really seems like a lot of fear-mongering a lot of times. Like fear-mongering in that, if you're not with them, then you don't make it.
Right, it's a problem. False religious systems, when they have an insufficient view of the work of Christ on the cross, they have rules and regulations that they always attach. And baptism is a rule and regulation you've gotta go through.
And then the issue becomes, well, what do you gotta do to keep your salvation? And they teach you have to keep it by being good. And it's a heresy. And we haven't even gotten into all the deep stuff.
It was interesting too, back then, they'll baptize you as often as you want. Like if the first one wasn't the right one, if your heart wasn't necessarily in it. I was personally baptized twice there and saw inconsistency in it.
In Church of Christ? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what do you now? Where do you go to church now? I'm Calvinist and I'm a Reform. I actually go, in my area, there's a shortage of Reform churches. There just isn't very many.
So we've gotta kinda make do with what we've got. But I've got a small circle of other Calvinists that we meet regularly, but I go to a non-denominational one right now.
Yeah, I'm the same way. I've been thinking about preaching on Sunday, just putting a camera here in the room as I'm preaching. And I've been thinking about starting a study, literally on the book of Romans for like the fifth or sixth time.
It takes me a year to go through Romans. Oh yeah. I have to go over. But yeah, he did not. He was blowing it badly with the Romans thing. I thought he did good. Oh, okay, Travis. So do you believe, Travis, you believe baptism is necessary for salvation?
Oh yeah, I believe Jesus, yeah. When he said to be saved, you had to be baptized. Where's that? Mark 16, 16. But, hang on.
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Don't just say something and then run with it. Are you aware of some issues with the text of Mark 16?
Yeah, but I wanted to talk to you about Colossians 2, 14.
Okay, are you aware of some of the textual issues of
Well, yeah, me and you, me and you've debated this, Matt. And you go into saying that technically Mark 16, 16 is not in some of the early manuscripts, but I think that's just an excuse. But anyway
Excuse me, excuse me. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Look, please don't just make something and then run. You know, let me respond a little bit of something. It's not just an excuse. Did you know, did you know that in those 11 verses, there are 17 words that appear in those 11 verses that never appear anywhere else in the entire gospel of Mark?
And I read a Greek scholar who said the style of writing is slightly different. Plus, if you go to Mark 16, 12, it says that Jesus appeared in a different form. Do you believe he appeared in a different form?
Well, I believe the type of form that he appeared in, you go and use other scriptures and it shows.
Was he raised in the same body he died in?
Yeah, that's how the piercings.
So he did not raise in a different form. He was in the same body he died in. This is the problem with the text. So going to Mark 16, 16 is not a great place to go to because of the textual problems that are there.
It's one of the three major issues in the textual issues. And plus it says who believes and is baptized. Would you agree with me? That is who, who believes and goes to church is saved.
Yeah, you have to be faithful. I don't think that you have to be, as you said, we teach, well, Christians teach that you have to be good enough. We don't teach that you're good enough because you can't be good enough,.
But yeah, you have to be faithful. So let me ask you then, you have to be faithful to stay right with God?
Yeah, Revelation 2 .10, be thou faithful unto death.
Okay, that's eschatological dealing with the seven churches and about people dying and being persecuted. So I'm asking you, do you tell us that you have to be faithful to God in order to keep yourself saved?
Yeah, that's what the Bible teaches. You know, you have to be faithful. Okay, so then you're saying it's a, what, could you give me a list? Just, you know, a partial list, say three things you gotta do to keep yourself saved.
Yeah, whatever God requires you to be faithful, that's what you have to do. I mean
Give me, give me a list. Give me three things you gotta do to keep yourself saved.
Okay, I can give you a list of what you cannot do.
I didn't ask what you cannot do. What must you do in order to be saved? To keep yourself right with God.
In Matthew 21, are you familiar with that?
Just list it out. Just say like, be baptized or don't go to R-rated movies or whatever it might be.
What are the things you gotta do? Like I said, whatever God requires you, read the Bible.
Okay, then you're the one saying you keep your salvation by, you know, your goodness.
So I'm just asking you No, I didn't say goodness, I said faithfulness. Okay, by your faithfulness,.
Your faithfulness to what God says about what you gotta do, all right? So you can't even list those things that you gotta do, so how do you know you're saved?
Because you read what God says to do and you practice those things.
What does God say to do that you have to do in order to keep yourself saved?
Okay, 1 John 1, you want me to read that for you? Not the entire chapter? Why don't you just tell us what it is? Just tell us what the answer is. Well, I'm telling you, this is how the blood of Jesus keeps cleansing you.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ, his son, cleanses us from all sin. Now, can you walk in darkness and still have the blood to cleanse you?
I would say that that's a definite issue, a problem, but I'm asking you a specific That's not the question. See, you don't answer the questions. That's how it is in a debate. You get on here
You don't answer the questions. I have an issue with you. You don't answer the questions. Can you walk in darkness and have the blood of Jesus to continue to cleanse you?
I've asked you a question that you're the one avoiding. What is the list of things you've got to do to keep yourself right with God? I've asked you the same question.
List it out, please. I'm waiting for your answer. Whatever God says to do to be faithful. Whatever. Okay, what is it? List it out. To be faithful? What is it you have to do? Well, I just said walk in the light.
What does that mean?
All right, we'll get to somebody new. Dr. John Owen, let's see. Hey, what's up, Matt? How are you doing? Doing all right, Dr. John Owen. Oh, John Owen, man. All right. He was starting to get me frustrated because he won't answer the question and he doesn't know what he has to do to keep himself right with God.
Think about it. I'm faithful enough and I keep myself right with the infinitely holy God. Watch this, folks.
Hey, Matt. Yeah? Even in Mark 16, there's consistency with our position as well, even though it's questionable because it says in verse 16, he who believed and has been baptized will be saved, but then immediately after that.
Who has not believed. Yeah, disbelief shall be condemned. I mean, it's a total scripture. A total scripture. Like whenever there's a questionable part where there's variance, we go to the other gospels and look at the other gospel says, and they hate that.
They don't have to engage in that kind of stuff. Why would I kick Thomas?
Because he would not answer the question after I repeatedly asked him. Everybody, did I repeatedly ask him the same question? And did he repeatedly ignore the question? Yes. Okay. I asked, what's the list?
I might, look, look, watch this. Watch this. There it is. I was gonna list it out right there. I was gonna list it out and my fingers right here on that keyboard right there. These fingers, when he told me, these are the things you gotta do to keep yourself right with God.
I was gonna list them out. He didn't even know what he's gotta do to keep himself safe. And if he asked the same question over and over again, they don't answer it. Then we're just gonna move along. Let's get to John Eubank.
Hey there. Yeah, I'm an ex-Church of Christ here. I got saved about two years ago and now I recently identified as a Reformed Baptist. Oh, you're almost perfect. It involved, it came into my home because I got my now sadly ex-wife baptized into the Church of Christ.
And then we got married. And then we had my daughter and then, but she came out of Rome with Catholicism. So she wanted to get her daughter baptized. So her roots came back up together. So I had to figure out how to debate Rome Catholicism.
And I found your material and James White and stuff like that. And then I got saved.
Praise God. So now you trust in Christ alone and not Christ in a ceremony.
Exactly. I did nothing to earn my salvation. I'm a Calvinist. I get it and I see it and I see that they're a cult and I'm studying their history and I'm seeing that they come from somewhere but they will not say it.
So if I say, you're from the Campbellite Church of Christ movement, they'll say, don't say that. I'm just a Christian and stuff. It's just like bogus. It's like you came from somewhere and you understand scripture a certain way for a certain reason.
Cause you learned it from your mom or dad and they learned it from their grandpa or something like that, or a friend. But it traces back to the 1800s and 19th century and stuff.
Yep. Yeah, it's works righteousness, you know? Right. Yeah, what I like to do is have these real conversations. Now, Travis here, he can't answer a direct question. So I just, in the text, I asked him, I said, you know, answer the question here.
What things, give me a list, must you do to keep yourself right with God?
Yeah. Matt, after I was baptized at 17 when I was 17 years old in the Church of Christ, I'm 29 now and I was saved at 27, so 10 years. Over those 10 years, and sorry to be too much information, but after I got baptized, I was just having premarital sex with all my girlfriends, no matter what and stuff like that.
Can I get a bad time? Yeah. Yeah, it's like, so I kind of see the Church of Christ, they're like light bulbs and it's like, they grow brighter when they're doing well and then they can turn off if maybe they're doing grievous sins or something.
So they have to, I don't know, let time go by for the light bulb to turn back on. Yeah, it's exactly. And it's funny, cause I came to that conclusion through my studies. I was like, these, cause I had to study Roman Catholicism first for my ex-wife's state.
But once I started hearing Church of Christ, I was like, these guys argue the same ways as Roman Catholics. And I heard you say that to Travis Thomas in another debate and I was like, this is exactly right, they're Roman Catholics.
So I call them the little, yeah. I call them the little sisters of Roman Catholicism now. Oh yeah, yeah.
I mean, come on, think about it. The question I'm asking Travis, which is a killer question, what things have you got to do to keep yourself right with God? Now think about that. What things have you got to do in your effort to keep yourself on the right side of God's mercy and grace, the infinitely holy God of the universe?
What things have you got to do? He goes, well, let me tell you. I mean, you know what? I got nothing. I got nothing. When I'm in heaven, I'm hiding behind the robe of Christ and I'm just. Exactly. This is it.
No, not my baptism, not my sacraments, not calm, not debates, not my ability to moonwalk pretty badly. Nothing.
Yeah, it's just subjective. Maybe I'm good enough. I haven't sinned as much. And it's just, no, you have to keep the entire law from conception to death.
And you can't do that. Look, Travis is saying all we do is make fun of people. He's not even representing the facts. Travis, seriously, are you saved? Are you in a state of salvation right now? Are you in a state of justification right this second?
If you were to die right now, and not that I'm wishing bad on you, I don't want that at all. But if you were to die right this second, may it not happen, where would you go and on what reason? Why would you go there?
What's the reason? And Travis, I've asked the question, what things have you got to do? Give me a list. And I made this clear. I said, look, if you don't even know the list of things you've got to do to keep yourself saved, could I, the question was, what do you have to do to keep yourself right with God?
That means there's things you've got to do. And I asked for a list you didn't even know. Well, then how do you know you're saved? So I'm asking you, if you're to die, I'm not wishing ill on you, but if you were to die right now, where would you go and why?
If you could answer that question, you know, great. You know, but he's not, he's not answering the question. No, not, yeah.
We'll give him time. It is wonderful to actually be able to go to heaven.
I'm sorry? Another question I wanted to ask was, if you could have asked Richard to save you right now, is why do you get to go to heaven and I don't? And the answer is always gonna come back, well, because I'm obeying better than you.
And that's boasting.
Well, the reason I'm gonna go to heaven and someone else isn't, is because God granted me the grace and the mercy and the faith and repentance to be justified when he called me in Christ from the foundation of the world.
If he had looked at me now, he wouldn't have picked me. I'm glad he picked me. That's right. That's what I love about reformed theology. All the glory goes to God. All of it.
All of it. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's like, and I let go and I'm not self, so I'm sure I still have self-righteousness in my life, but I'm not so self-righteous when before, I just used to look down on people and just be like, man, this guy over here or something.
But now I get it, is you're no better than me, the hobo, the prostitute, anybody is no better than me. I was on my way to hell and God woke me up and he saved me. And there's a day where I said, I'm awake.
I see, I get it now. I get where they're coming from and I know what they're doing wrong and stuff like that. And yeah, I literally said, I'm awake. I could see. It's cool.
Try it, the grace of God. Charlie here, if our salvation hangs on our performance in walking in faith with the Lord, doesn't that kind of get nullified or become mission impossible with James 2 .10? I just posted it there.
That's right. Well, I was gonna ask this guy, I mean, it's a set up question. What things have you got to do?
Give a list. Okay, are you doing it? Well, I try. That's the only thing, I try. Oh, you're not doing it. Did you run the mile in under four minutes? Well, I tried. Oh, you didn't do it then, did you? The standard of perfection is, you know, Galatians 3 .10.
You have to, you know, curses everyone who does not abide by all things written in the law to perform them. You're obligated to do it perfectly.
Yeah, there's Galatians 10 right there, yeah.
Yeah, and so Travis, I don't wanna judge him as a person, but I'll tell you, if he teaches that you have to maintain your salvation with God by your goodness, then he cannot be a regenerate individual.
And he cannot be because he's adding works to salvation. It's actually saying that he maintains his place with the infinitely holy God by his own goodness. And he'll say, well, it's not by goodness. Well, what do you call it?
You know? I came a little late, so I apologize. Was he promoting an idea that you can possibly as a Christian live a life of sinless perfection? Because I just posted your article on that topic. It's an excellent article.
Yeah, and he was misquoting me also about 1 Peter 3 21. Hey Matt, this is James for the other day on the radio. If you get the chance regarding my question on whether or not Cornelius was saved before meeting Peter.
Yeah, actually coincidentally, James, I was reading through my devotions and I went through that chapter. And so I thought about your question. It certainly seems like he was saved. I was curious how they would view that he was already reconciled with Acts 15.
Yeah, that'd be a good question to ask and work out some particulars, but yeah, good stuff. Got a question for you, Matt. Oh man, I can use the restroom again. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really hot up here.
And so can I just use the restroom? No, don't tell me. Okay, I'm gonna mute myself, but I'll have this. Thank you.
Yes, when you get back, perhaps you... This is Charlie. Perhaps you can answer the question I had earlier. Is an unbeliever who gets baptized just end up a wet unbeliever? It would seem like the belief is the hinge, the pin on which your salvation is hinged, not your baptism.
Yeah, yeah.
Hey, Charlie. Hey, so I was in it for over two decades and they will baptize you as often as you wanna get baptized, just in case the first one was for not. If you believe in the church of Christ, if you believe that you were baptized, but you didn't do it for the right reasons or with good intentions or motives, and it's all about you, then they'll do it as often as you want.
I got it done twice back when I was in it. Yes, in my experience, found that. In fact, my early experience with the church of Christ is they didn't recognize it, particularly when I went to, they didn't recognize a baptism that was not done by them.
So if you'd been previously baptized in a Christian fellowship, it was not recognized by them because it wasn't their fellowship, so.
Oh yeah, if you're not done in their building, it doesn't count. You could do it in a lake with anybody, like they, you have to have it done in their presence. It's really weird. And then the sinless perfection thing, they believe, they literally believe that post baptism, if you don't live in perfection, then you will lose your salvation and you have to repent to get it back.
And for me, I mean, as having been in it, I don't know of a time whenever I'm not a sinner that's saved by grace. When does sin turn off? When does this flesh stop doing flesh? That was one of the things that was inconsistent to me whenever I was in it.
When are we okay? Oh, well, yeah, I think as you grow in the knowledge of the word of God and learn from it, you realize that you end up learning more from the word than you could possibly perform. Exactly.
And it puts you in your place, rightly so. I mean, and that's a confession on my part. I can't practice as much the Bible as I know, but that doesn't stop me from driving forward with him in faith. To say that I've made it and I've arrived.
Would be awful and arrogant and wrong. I feel you, yeah. Can I ask a question?
Hey, Matt, you're muted. Matt's muted still. I didn't hear what he was telling me. Okay, there we go. Travis, we're still waiting for you to answer the question. What things have you got to do to keep yourself right.
With the infinite word of God? Well, I already tried to answer that, but let me, can I ask a question? I had a question before the debate. As soon as you answer the question. Okay, I reference 1 John chapter one.
And if you don't like it, that's all I can answer is I can give you a Bible and it's walking in the light.
Well, it says a lot in 1 John one. It says, we make him a liar. What are you talking about? What is it? Don't you know?
What is it you got to do? Well, you have to take up your cross and serve Jesus and be faithful.
Take up your cross, serve Jesus. What does it mean to take up your cross?
Well, see, that's, is this just a question, Travis? Do I get to ask a question? Yeah, you do. But what does it mean to Is this the way you treat your guests? You asked me to come in here and I don't even get to ask you one question.
You haven't answered the question, Travis. And it's because you're probably not a true Christian. You don't even know what the gospel really is. And I'm asking you some very specific stuff and you keep avoiding and people in the text know you're avoiding.
Can you read this? This is a text message that someone disagrees with me.
Well, I think he's missed the point that defining your terms, if you're going to throw out a term, we got to know what kind of definition is behind it. I mean, if I hear a Jehovah's Witness talk about Jesus Christ, I know they're talking about someone who was created, not the uncreated God, maker of heaven and earth, the word and the flesh.
If I hear a Christian science talk about Christ, I know they're talking about a state of consciousness that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, was in tune with more than the rest of us. And that's why he could do the things he could do.
Or if I'm talking to a Mormon who defines the Christ as the spirit brother of Lucifer in the pre-existence, unless you got the terms defined, you could be talking at altogether cross purposes and never get anywhere.
So his insistence on, or his failure to define his terms perhaps betrays the fact that he knows his argument is weak. And, you know, it's usually pride that would keep you from admitting that. If you don't want to define your terms, it's a way to wiggle out of giving an answer that has a defined term.
And Matt, can I ask you a question? Yes, you can. Let me respond pretty fast first. Jacob says, I didn't like the answer. He didn't give me an answer. I want a list of things he's got to do. He says, pick up your cross.
What does that mean to take up your cross? What does it mean to do? What is it? You know, what does it mean to take up your cross? And he can't answer the question. He doesn't know what he's got to do to be saved.
He doesn't know because he doesn't know what the gospel is. Go ahead, ask a question.
Yeah, all right. So my question was in, you know, concerning baptismal regeneration, because it seems strange to me when we consider, for example, that the idea of water baptism and faring the Holy Spirit, when we look at the case of Simon, for example, Simon was baptized in water.
And if water baptism actually, you know, grants you the Holy Spirit, then what about him?
Well, they wouldn't say that it just automatically does it. There's a term called ex opera operata. It's Latin for by the doing it is done. It's not just getting dunked in water to get you that. They have to, they say that that's the instrument that the Holy Spirit will come upon you.
When you have faith, you're doing what's right, then God just uses that. It's not an automatic, so to speak, magic thing.
That's right. But wasn't he baptized by the apostles? I believe so.
And if he was baptized by the apostles, then you'd think that they knew if he was saved or not. Yeah. And I would agree with you on that. That's the problem.
Yeah. I think they run to the specific problem. Yeah.
Oh yeah. In fact, I had several questions that we never got to that are very difficult questions and stuff, but okay, let's see. You know, one of the simple questions I'll ask, this is a simple question and I didn't, I wanted to get to it, but you know how things are.
If a person prays and asks Jesus to forgive him of his sins, are his sins forgiven? It's a simple question, right? I'd say, yeah. Yeah, I would say they were. Now here's a question I developed out of a friend of mine's comment named Dave Kimball.
He's a friend of mine. It was an interesting comment. Baptism and repentance for the forgiveness of your sins by John the Baptist, right? You guys with me? Okay. Here's the question. Did those who were baptized in John the Baptist, were they forgiven of their sins when they were baptized?
That's the question. Okay. What would they say? You know, they might say, well, yes, because if in Act 238, you're baptized for the forgiveness of sins and John the Baptist's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, then doesn't it make sense to say that those who believed in John the Baptist's baptism were then saved because they're baptizing?
And even though it's all the old covenant, they're doing it for repentance for the forgiveness of their sins, right? They would be saved, right? That'd be the implication. Did they still need to go to the temple and offer sacrifices?
That's the question. Now think about that. If you say, no, they didn't. Well, then how could they be justified without the shed blood of Christ? Since Christ was right there. And if they say, yes, they still had to, then they weren't justified by their baptism of repentance, were they?
So it's a bit of a problem because of the covenant aspect and the Church of Christ, people don't understand covenant theology very well. And how about this one? Let's see. Yeah, I went over that a little bit.
One of the things I'd ask is baptism a ceremony? That's just a question I like to ask. And here's an extended question. Why was Paul grateful that he was not baptizing people except Crispus and Gaius in 1 Corinthians 1 .14 and the household of Stephanas, verse 16, if he was sent by Jesus not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, 1 Corinthians 1 .17.
And if the gospel is what saves and baptism is part of it, then why is Paul disobeying the gospel? And it's another question. There's a lot of stuff to get in there. But you know what I thought? I think the killer one is Colossians 2 .14.
I need to have a t-shirt. Colossians 2 .14 destroys bad theology. You know, that'd be great. Lafonso, let's get Lafonso in here. Lafonso, you are on. You have to unmute yourself. There you go. How about that?
How about that? Now you're in, buddy. Can hear you. Can you hear us?
Lafonso. Yeah, can you hear me? Yes. Go ahead. You got a comment or a question? Whatever. Well, I have a comment. What you were saying about being baptized before the day of Pentecost and being baptized after the day of Pentecost.
And I would see being baptized in St. John's Baptism as part of the process of God bringing forth the New Testament covenant. You see what I'm saying?
Well, I think maybe. See, the thing is, the Bible's very specific. And it says in Hebrews 9, 15 through 16, that the new covenant occurs with the death of Christ. That's clear. Now, what I want to do is go through and do a study on the new covenant and figure some things out.
But that's in the future. So the sacrifice of Christ was always necessary to be saved because the animal sacrifices can't do anything to save. But if people are offering sacrifices in the old covenant, which means even the time of John the Baptist, even when Jesus is walking around before he's crucified, it was old covenant time.
If the people in the time of John the Baptist were getting baptized, were they saved by that baptism, a baptism of repentance? The answer has to be no. If they were saved, then they should not continue in the temple sacrifices.
But that would be to violate the Old Testament covenant requirements. It's particularly since the death of Christ has not yet occurred. So it'd be a problem for them. It'd be, it's an interesting question to ask, to have a discussion, to see how their theology goes.
But at any rate. Well, what I was looking at is in the Old Testament, up until when Jesus died, because during Jesus' life, that's still the Old Testament. So everything that was taking place was still under the Old Covenant.
Until Jesus died, right. But when Jesus, when John the Baptist, when he gave the baptism for repentance, those people that did what God was commanding at that time, they were saved according to God's commandment at that time.
If they had disobeyed God, his counsel, and refused baptism, then they would have rejected the counsel of God. Yeah, that's because I can't remember right now off the top of my head where that scripture's at, but it said that the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God being not baptized.
So baptism at that point was until or for the remission of sin. But Let me ask you After the day of Pentecost, baptism in Jesus' name, it was the new covenant way of salvation. Okay, hold on a second.
Are you Hold on, hold on, hold on. Are you one that's Pentecostal? Yes, I'm one that's Pentecostal. Okay.
All right. So you deny the Trinity, you require baptism for salvation in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Believe you can lose your salvation, and that true presence of the Holy Spirit is manifested by speaking in tongues.
Is that correct? You hold to all that?
I hold to that, but the way you're saying it, it's like a blanket statement. And some of those statements, I know I would disagree with. Some of the way you're saying it, like what about this? I don't believe someone is born.
I don't believe someone is saved.
Hold on, buddy, buddy, buddy. I just said, that's what you believe, right? I just said that's what you believe.
I actually have a speaker phone in my hand, and I didn't know I was talking and listening at the same time.
I'm sorry, go ahead. Okay. So that's what oneness teaches, okay. Well, oneness Pentecostal is a non-Christian cult, okay?
It's a non All right, I'm familiar with that. I am, I'm familiar with that labeling, but that labeling doesn't make that true in the eyes of God.
That's, well, yes it does. Is that correct? In the sight of God, it does,.
Because you're a non-Christian. Okay, okay, notice what you're saying. You're saying rejecting Trinity makes me non-Christian. No, no, no. But God doesn't say that.
Hold on. I said, let me show you. Now, Jesus was in the garden in Luke 22, 42, and he's praying to God the Father, right? He said he wanted to escape the crucifixion. Didn't want to go through it. He says, nevertheless, not my will,.
But your will be done. Are you familiar with that, Luke 22? Of course, you know I am.
Okay, just making sure. So who was Jesus praying to?
I answer that question very simply by stating your doctrine. You believe that God exists in three separate, co-equal persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Is that correct? Yes.
So when Jesus was praying in the garden, in your doctrine, do you not have God praying to God? You have the person of Christ praying to the person of the Father.
That's the answer. Trinitarian theology has no problem with it. In your theology, God is Hold on a minute. I want to finish.
So I asked you a question. You're not answering the question.
In your theology
I was just gonna answer your question. We have God praying to God. Okay. That's no different than what you're saying. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Define God. God is an eternal spirit. So you have the eternal spirit praying to the eternal spirit.
So Jesus is praying to himself? Okay, from your doctrine. No, no, no, no, no. What are you saying, God? Oh, no, stop. I'm answering your question. No, you're not. You're saying God prayed to God. Stop, stop, stop.
No, I didn't say that.
I said person to person. It's different. Now I'm asking you, who was Jesus
I understand, I understand your belief system.
Who was Jesus praying to in the garden according to your understanding? Okay, you're asking me.
I'm gonna answer you. No, you're not gonna answer. You're gonna go someplace else. Who was he praying to? Why did you ask the question if you said I wasn't gonna answer? Because you're not answering.
You're predetermining what I believe. I'm asking you the question. In your theology, who was Jesus praying to?
You told me I was gonna go somewhere else. Who was he praying to? God was praying to God. I don't have to take it any further than that. The son was praying to the father. The son is God and the father is God.
It's gonna take theology and philosophy to explain for someone to explain what they believe they're praying.
Wow, this guy does not listen. He's just not listening. Let's try it again. All right, Lafonso. Come on, buddy. Wow. So let me ask you a question here. Lafonso, I want you to actually listen to the question and answer to the question.
Jesus said, not my will, but your will be done. Is that two wills?
Of course, there are two wills.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Okay, I had to mute him again. This is simple. We have two wills, not my will, but your will. The next question is, does a person, does required meant to be a person mean you have to have a will? Could you answer that, Lafonso?
Does a person It's not a person. So a person doesn't have a will or
No, I'm asking you a question. Is God a person?
God is three persons. So Jesus says, not my will, but your will. So which will Okay, the Bible doesn't say God. Who's the will that Jesus was talking about, my will? Who was that will? It's God's will.
Okay, Jesus says, my will and your will. So there's two separate wills, but they're the same will? That's correct, it's God's will. So you have two apples. I have one in each hand. And how about this?
I got glasses in my hand, you can see them. I have, this is one set of glasses. This is another set of glasses. This is separate glasses,.
But you're saying they're the same glasses. Okay, God is not physical. God is an eternal spirit. This is an even manifest My will. Okay, you asked a question, but then you want to use your terminology to have me to answer your question.
That's not true. Is it? Because it's not biblical. How many wills are there? The Bible says You said two. The Bible said God is one eternal spirit. Ephesians four. It said there's one.
Anybody else want to get in? Let's see, let's try. John Eubank testing my patience. I'll tell you, I'm really trying to... Man, oh man, if I don't get over this, I'm going to go bald. I'm sorry, I was scared, but I fell out.
Anybody else want to get in the room here? And maybe answer a question. Sure, go ahead. Oh no, I didn't have one. I'm just hoping somebody will answer your questions for me. Oh, okay.
What are the qualifiers and attributes of being a person? That, there you go, you know, trying to ask him logical questions and he won't answer the questions, you know?
Yeah, I'm providing the links to some of these topical things that they're bringing up and simply opening your Bible and looking at the scriptures should set you straight on these topics. That's right.
At least if you're one who has confidence in the word of God, it should set you straight. That's right.
It should be. Now look at the comment made by Jacob Patton. And then when Matt doesn't like where someone is going to get kicked out. Okay, look, that's not a true statement. I didn't like where he was saying over and over and over and over.
Did he get kicked out? No. Over and over. Did he start avoiding the questions? Yes. Did he give me these grandiose answers that weren't answering the question? Yes. Did I say, please try this? Over and over.
Yes. Then I kick him out. It's not as simple as, I don't like your answer. Oh, look what you're saying, you're gone. That's not it. You must be a leftist Democrat because this is how you're thinking. And it's just not a good thing to do.
Think like that misrepresents the truth. Okay, let's see. Faith in Christ alone and he's bringing false witness. LaFonso answered the question. No, he didn't answer the question. Look, I have a series of questions I wanna ask and he's not answering the questions, okay?
He's going into something else. I waited a couple of times to see if he's gonna answer and he goes off to something. Wait a minute, that's not what we're talking about. So you gotta answer the questions.
It's simple. Matt, you must be an incredibly intelligent and humble guy like me with a name like that. Oh, you know, yeah.
Doesn't Matthew mean gift from God? So we gotta stay humble, right? That's what I tell my wife.
That's what I tell my wife. She doesn't, well, she used to be impressed until after about a couple of years of marriage, she goes, yeah, wait a minute. I just realized something.
You're not a gift of God, okay. Hey, Matt, I had a quick question for you. I posted in the chat earlier, something I've been studying recently. So coming from my background, I used to be Mormon. So by the grace of God, I was also saved.
And I noticed too, yeah, actually your website and a lot of other websites like James White's stuff really helped me out a lot to understand the lies of Mormonism. But so I see a lot of the same argumentation in the debate on, from Church of Christ, they use a lot of the same passages.
It's interesting that they all kind of target on those same passages. But it's interesting because one thing I've been studying recently is a confessional Lutheranism. And so they believe that baptism saves, but not ex operi operato.
They believe that it's the word, the gospel in the water and you have to still receive it through faith. So what is your opinion on the confessional Lutheran view of baptism? Do you think it's as close to the line, the dangerous line as Church of Christ?
Or do you personally think that it's, that it's still within the realm of orthodoxy?
I went to a Lutheran college and graduated from Concordia University, LCMS College, okay. And I took all the theology courses to get my hands on there. And they are close to that heresy, but not there.
They would teach that you're justified by faith. And that what they're talking about, from what I understand in the context of baptism and baptism of infants, that at that point they become justified in their baptism ex operi operato.
They wouldn't say that's what it is, but that really is what it is. And I'd be in class talking about, wait a minute, you say it's not, but then you say that's what it is. You say it's not, then you describe how it is that.
And so I had always had a problem with that. And so I could never be a Lutheran because of the inconsistencies that were there, even though I was offered free seminary tuition, if I'd have gone to a seminary, Lutheran seminary and said, nope, not happening.
So that's my view, is that I think they blew it there.
Yeah, I don't think it's heresy either. I know that a lot of reform kind of peg it that way. They teach that you can't go to heaven without baptism. They don't say that. They say that that's the norm is you should be baptized, but it's not an absolute requirement and they still require faith.
So you're still justified through faith alone. That's what they would say, but not through baptism. So yeah, I'm kind of agree with you. It's a little bit hard because I asked them and they say that infants in baptism actually can resist the grace of God in baptism.
So I kind of struggle to understand and believe that, but yeah, I mean, at least they're trying to be consistent with sola fide, they're trying to not cross that line.
Yeah, I think the problem with Lutheranism, and I mean this respectfully, is that they didn't go far enough in the reformation. Luther did a fantastic job. He really did. His commentary in Galatians is just fantastic, but I don't think he went far enough.
And I think Calvin went the rest of the distance and hit the home run. I think Luther hit a triple and the homer was by Calvin. That's what I think. But of course they would say something different. That's okay.
But yeah, I think you see it right. I think you see it right. Obviously, since your name's Matt and you're smart. Well, I'm a Baptist though. So, you know, I still got some work to do. Yeah, you go. Oh man, you're a Baptist.
Are you a five pointer by any chance?
Yeah, yeah. So 1689 reformed Baptist, Jim.
That's okay. Well, you know, I'll let it slide.
We did steal your confession and all right. So we got to give you credit. Oh yeah, nice Andy.
I see that. Yeah, I'm a continuationist and believe in infant baptism, but not for salvation. I believe it's a covenant sign and I believe infants are included in it. I don't argue about it. You know, I have an argument for it, but you know what?
If you got, you know, it's just not explicitly taught in scripture. And so I don't really, I'm not gonna die in that hill.
Yeah, covenant theology is one thing that I really grasped onto when I was leaving Mormonism. It just made so much sense, you know? And so while we have different views of covenant theology, you know, just the idea that God works through covenants throughout time from the beginning, it just makes so much sense and ties everything together.
Whereas like, it seems like Mormons and others, they try to have this dispensational view where they chop the Bible up into, you know, like seven periods or 10 periods. And, you know, people are apostatizing and then God has to bring angels and the gospel to the earth every time.
Well, let me ask you, are you a continuationist or cessationist?
That's a good question. I used to be, well, I've studied out quite a bit. So I was kind of like a normative cessationist, but I'm kind of fuzzy on that area. You know, there are people that say in missionary situations, they said that they've seen people speak in tongues and I can't really, I wasn't there, so I can't really say, but I don't think it's impossible for God to do such things.
So I'm kind of a, I'm not a hardcore cessationist, but. Okay.
Yeah, I was gonna rag on you and just say, oh, if you believe in cessationism, then you're a dispensational Calvinist. And that was, the whole thing was for that, but you actually answered it really well.
Now the joke, I had to explain the joke. It's not that good, but hey, you know, not that this makes doctrine or anything, but I've experienced prophesying and it came to pass. Not that it makes it, you know, hey, look at me, you know, no, no, no.
But I've seen it happen as well. And I certainly don't appeal to that as proof of anything. But the only time I would use something like that really is in a conversation like this, like, cause you said, others have said this, you can't cross pollinate, you can't exegete their experience.
Well, at least with me, you know, you know I'm not gonna be lying to you and, you know, actor presenting everything and this is what happened and then what do you do with it? That kind of a thing, you know, but there's, you know, I don't believe that the charismatic gifts are normative.
Like you walk into a church that's all speak in tongues. I don't believe in that, but God can certainly, you know, if you have someone speak in tongues, raise the dead, give a prophecy, you can do that.
And in fact, what do you, you guys heard about these dreams as pastors having about what's coming in the next few months? You guys heard about that? My, I think his name is Stackhouse. I don't know if that's it, but he was having dreams earlier this year before COVID hit, a calendar was going and my theology is confusing, Jorge.
Digame algo en espanol, porque quiero comprenderlo. So the issue is,.
Oh, I lost my train of thought. What am I saying? Dang it. I'm talking about Stackhouse and some prophecies.
So he said that he had a calendar, just a dream and a fist hit on March. That's when COVID hit and a fist in September. And I think it was September if I remember correctly, but he's saying that in November, it's going to get bad.
It's just going to get bad. And others apparently are saying the same thing. And because I believe in the continuation of the gifts, the Bible does say in the last days, people dream dreams and visions.
That's what it says. So, you know, and I've listened to him and he seems to be very humble before God. He's a pastor. He's willing to be held accountable for it all. Okay. So, you know, it doesn't say afterwards, now send me $20 and then you can know more, you know.
But, so it looks like it's going to get really bad. And in fact, with Ginsburg dying, the left is going to have a diaperinian conniption fit because they don't want Trump to put a conservative in. Now, why do they not want a conservative in?
Because the people who are gaining power in this country are anti-Christian and anti-constitution. And they're willing to be violent in order to get their cause across. And so I think there's a lot of truth to this, what's happening, particularly with Ginsburg dying.
Because now, in fact, what I read an article or some titles of articles in the first paragraph today, where one guy said, if he appoints a conservative, we need to burn everything down. People are talking like this about destruction.
Now I live here in Idaho and here in Idaho, if you're a resident, you move from California, you're here for a few months, you get a residency, whatever it is, you walk into a gun store. I want that gun.
If you can find him anymore, I want that gun. They check your background, takes 20 minutes. They walk you out, you pay them, you walk out the front door, they hand you your gun, your ammo, you're done.
You can put your hip right there, no one's gonna care. And here in Idaho, everybody's got guns and I can barely find any ammo or guns. People here are prepping, you're getting ready. And BLM, I've been doing research on BLM, it's a Marxist, terrible organization.
And TIFA is a horrible organization. The left is trying to gain power, the leftist cities burning and pillaging, which is empowering and emboldening the people who are leftists, say, wait, look what they're doing.
They're not getting penalized for it, but if you go to church to worship, then you could be in trouble. So the left is getting emboldened by the actions of the further left and the news media isn't doing anything right.
It isn't approaching this stuff with fairness, Trump's bad, the reason I'm laying this all out is because this is the formula for real problems to come, real problems to come. And I mean this, I'm gonna say now, I mean it in a loving context.
I recommend you guys prepare and get some extra food and water. If you have guns, get some extra ammo and just be ready. And hopefully, it'll all just blow over. But the Bible says that the ant prepares for the winter by storing food in the summer.
And so we need to do that. And I just recommend that because it's the sign of the times because all they gotta do, in fact, what the left has been talking about doing is blocking roadways, trucking won't go through, they can derail trains, they can stop a lot of stuff.
Let me tell you guys, you know what it takes to bring a society to anarchy? About 500 people, that's all. With high powered weapons and you just stand at a distance and you shoot out power plants, both fuel and electrical, everything goes into failure and they can get what they want.
So I'm not saying that you're gonna do it, I'm not trying to fear monger everybody, but it doesn't take as much as people think to cause problems. When Katrina hit, within 72 hours, there were rapes and murders.
And people don't know this either. Guess what the military did during Katrina? They went through and forced the people, the law abiding citizens, to give up their guns. They confiscated the guns. And as they would go through a neighborhood doing this, they'd knock on the door, you got any weapons?
And they'd give them here, martial law, whatever, and they went through. The bad guys followed after the military, knowing that the good, the people, law abiding people, were now defenseless and went through and robbed them and other things happened as well.
So, you know, Jesus says, you know, be prepared. You see the signs? Get ready. So I just recommend that you guys get ready and maybe in six months we'll talk about it again and go, hey man, you know, you're right, Sid, get ready, but nothing really happened.
Praise God.
Yeah, I live in New York State and I'm here for school. And you can't even apply for a pistol permit unless you've lived here at least five years. There's so many laws around owning a weapon, it's like almost impossible.
It's pretty wild. I'm trying to get a job to move back out because I'm from Utah. I'm trying to move back out west again.
Because here it's just so much different. Yeah. It is. The Democrat run places, they have high crime, they have all kinds of stuff. So at any rate, and no, it wasn't just for 70 AD. You know, if you're full preterist, you know, that's a false teaching for someone in the text.
Yeah, California, the People's Republic of California. So I believe, or I strongly suspect that our country is in serious trouble, far worse than we realize. And so I think we should be prepared. I'm preparing, you know, I'm not preparing for helicopter landings and stuff like that.
I'm just getting a little bit of extra this and that so that we can survive for a couple of months and what we've got, stuff like that.
So Matt, another quick question for you related to that. Sure. You know, there's a lot of debate amongst Christians if they should vote for somebody who they think lines up with their political and religious views the most, even if they have no chance of being elected, or should you vote for somebody who has a higher chance of being elected, but maybe you differ with them on some things?
What are your opinions on that? Pray and ask God for what you should do and then do what you gotta do. I agree, amen. I think there's a lot of Christians on Facebook that'll say you have to do it one way or the other.
You know, you're not a Christian if you don't vote for so-and-so.
It gets kind of silly. Yeah, yeah. You know, I didn't vote for Trump the first election, but personally, I plan on voting for him on the second one. And the reason is because I certainly don't want Biden in with Camilla Harris because she's a Marxist and Sleepy Joe can't, you know, he can't even articulate a sentence anymore.
So they'll probably declare him as incompetent and she becomes president of the United States and she will destroy, cat, she will destroy our constitution. Cat, come in here. We have a, if he comes in again, I'll show you how big he is.
He just wants me to feed him all the time. So that's why I don't want them in. If it wasn't a big deal, I'd do what I did last time. I'm a constitutionalist. I believe in voting for the constitutionalist party.
That's just me. People say, he's throwing your vote away. I don't believe so. I believe the constitution is a good document, but I'm scared to death of Biden and Camilla Harris getting in and AOC and the zombie clan.
Now look, guys, I got questions for you. Zombies, they don't have any frontal lobe functioning, do they? Zombies don't, right? There's nothing going on up here. Do the left Democrats have anything going on up here?
No, hence zombies. I think they're zombies. You know, I mean, Pelosi looks like a zombie, you know.
Maybe George Romero should file a lawsuit. You know, they own some money, the Democrat party.
Yeah, yeah, you know, copyright stuff or something's going on there.
Matt, I think you owe authentic zombies an apology for that comparison.
Jacob Patton, he just said, I gotta read this. Katrina gun confiscation thing was fake news. I don't know if it was or wasn't. I heard it from a pretty reputable source, but maybe it is. Police collected guns from abandoned homes.
They were sued in part of the lawsuit. Thank you. Okay, thanks. I never wanna give incorrect information. Okay, when Jesus the Christ returns, he's got my vote. Okay, used to be the fifth. Okay, we're dead in your sins.
So yes, we were zombies. Many passages say obedience is necessary. Others say not saved by work, since God, you know, not necessary for what? And we gotta show the verses. Leftists only vote their emotions, not rationally.
That's the problem is these leftists are gonna be in power and these youngins. I mean, I see my daughters, you know, they didn't know what's going on. My youngest daughter today was over and we were talking and we talked about socialism and I was explaining what it was and how bad it was.
She's like, you could see it in her face. Oh, I'm getting it. They don't understand what socialism is. They think it's just free education. Isn't it fair for everybody?
It's also about caring for the poor, right? You know, they really focus on that. It's like, you don't care about poor people. You know, you don't wanna be a socialist. You don't care about poor people.
It's like, you know, it's kind of a false dilemma. Right, it is. It's a huge problem.
Anyway, we're blabbing. So what'd you guys think of the debate?
It was very good. It's a little bit difficult to keep them on topic and really addressing the concerns you gave, but I think you kept pushing some of those passages that he was kind of skirting around those ideas.
Now, and I was the one that posted the question about if a hair of your head comes out of the water, does the baptism not count? Because I mean, I think even Spurgeon, honestly, I mean, Spurgeon is a perfect, I like Spurgeon a lot, but I think he even said that it doesn't count.
But of course he doesn't believe that you need baptism to be saved, but I thought it was an interesting question because they say you do need it, but. Yeah, he skirted around it too.
He did. And Colossians 2 .14. I mean, you could almost hear his toe breaking when he stubbed into that rock.
So. Oh, when you did that, I just, I knew. It could have been messier. It could have been way messier. He could have just completely, he floundered on it, but it could have been worse. It could have been way worse.
I mean, it is a killer verse. I use it to support limited atonement all the time. And to me, it is rock solid, you know?
I think also the passage in, I think it's Hebrews chapter seven, where it talks about how Christ lives to make intercession for his people. 725? Yeah, I think that's a really solid case for a limited atonement as well.
Yeah, that reminds me. My opponent failed to understand the issue of Christ's priesthood. He's a high priest after the order of Melchizedek, Hebrews 6 .20 and 7 .25. Well, he had to fulfill righteousness.
For what purpose did he have to fulfill the righteousness? Well, the things that he did were Matthew wrote and represented out of the Old Testament. He didn't do every single thing or recorded every single thing, but he was typically doing those things that were necessary to demonstrate his priesthood, which was superior to the Aaronic Levitical priesthood.
So he failed, I believe he really failed to understand that issue there. Oh, and since you Calvinists, if you're hearing, now, did he really understand the nuances of Calvinism?
No, no. And I would, I hate to make a blanket statement, but I would say that probably a majority to maybe all people that are from the Church of Christ have no idea. Like they just know what they hear from other people, but they don't put any time into studying.
And if they did, they'd probably would be Calvinist.
Unless they have an agenda, like some people do when they try and say that baptism is necessary for salvation and that babies don't have any sin. Where did they get that? In Adam, all die. 1 Corinthians 15 .22.
It's federal headship.
He didn't understand what federal headship really is either. If you really wanna get them, ask them when they think that kids should get baptized. Like what age is that? Is there a thing that they have to do to show their time is now?
If they just say that, I don't understand why I should get baptized throughout their entire life, does that age of accountability just never come and they're good? It'd be 89 year old that's dying and say, oh, I just now realized I'm a sinner and need to get...
What age is that? It doesn't exist.
Mormons have the age of eight, but they claim that that's from a revelation for Joseph Smith, but yeah.
Yeah, and Matt, regarding that Colossians 2 .14, I wanna drop a couple of links in here to two articles that put that in great view if people are interested in that. I hope that went through. Did it? Yeah, yeah, it's there.
Okay, there was two different ones. And I don't know if I moused myself or... Anyway, here they are again. Yeah, those are great. Sorry, I didn't wanna get too far away from that Colossians 2 .14 because it's valuable.
And it's very rich in meaning and a blessing to go over it systematically. And by the way, thanks, Ernie Ray, for doing the questions.
I forgot about you. Oh, man. One thing that really surprised me was that in the beginning, I think in his opening statement, he said, now Matt says that you don't need repentance for salvation. And I just shook my head.
I was like, what? I mean, he says he knows Calvinism, but faith and repentance is pretty basic, right?
Yeah, my position is that repentance is not necessary for salvation if repentance means you're complying with the law. It is necessary for salvation not to become saved because the unbeliever cannot receive the things of God.
First Corinthians 2 .14, you can do no good, Romans 3, 10, 11, and 12. So how then can you be repentant in order to be saved? God has to grant it. So is repentance necessary? It's a necessary thing in the sense is that once we're regenerated, we are able to repent because we can't continue in our sin.
That's my position. And he didn't represent me accurately in that. A lot of people don't.
Yeah, I think that's something, I think that's the big thing that people really struggle with in understanding reformed theology. I mean, I certainly did as a Mormon. I came straight out of Mormonism, straight into the frying pan of Calvinism.
It's like, you can't get any more man-centered theology to more God-centered theology, I think, than Mormonism and Calvinism.
That must've been like night and day. I mean, wow.
Yeah, I was reading your articles and watching James White on his dividing line, and he was exegeting John 6 with the King James Bible. And I was trying to refute what he was saying, but it's like, you just go line by line.
I'm like, well, it's what the Bible says.
I use John 6 also to show you cannot lose your salvation. John 6 is a tremendous chapter.
Oh, it's huge. Yeah. It is.
It's funny, though. It is huge. John 6, though, it's kind of like the chameleon. It's like Roman Catholics will use that to prove transubstantiation. Other people will use it to prove other things. It's kind of like they'll pick and choose things out of John 6 to prove whatever they want.
It's kind of fascinating, really. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. I'm hoping this guy wants to debate me on something Calvinistic, because that'd be fun. And we'll see. Do babies go to hell after they die as a baby?
I can't tell you. All do, all don't. I've lost a baby after birth, died in our arms. And so I'm never able to be objective about that. And so I just hold to the position that all babies just go to heaven.
Can I prove it? Nope. Would I defend it as being the truth? No. Just a position I hold to. And I'll just choose to do that. I can't be objective anymore. Yeah, I'll tell you. Sorry to hear that, Matt.
Yeah, it was tough. But we knew he was probably not gonna make it. But I actually heard with a stethoscope his last heartbeat. And they've got stories. But at any rate, let's see, anything else? I put the link in there if anybody wants to get in here and join us for the convo.
I wanna probably go another 10 minutes or so, because I've been at this for almost four hours. Psalm 22, nine. I hear it ticking. I hear it too. Somebody's got something going, it's all right. Maybe it's my fan in the background.
Oh, Adam, man, I'm sorry, man. That hurts. Okay. Yeah, it has an effect on you. Strongly believe God saves them in his living arms. I just hope for that. Good night, Matt. Good night, Ernie. Thanks again, buddy.
Okay, made a mess this evening. You think so? We lost three. I'm glad to hear you lost three. Aye, aye, aye. Okay. First time 513, I heard Tim Staples from Catholic Answers Live said that verse is not talking about final salvation.
Boy, oh boy, oh boy. Days of accountability, blah, blah, blah. I will be praying for y 'all. Who's y 'all? There's no time limit on when we come home. Okay, so I enjoyed the debate and the discussion.
And I thought that he floundered in several areas. And I think he begged the question far more than he realized. He says he proved his point that baptism's necessary. No, he didn't prove it. It's a very difficult passage or difficult thing to prove.
Each verse he went to, I addressed and he didn't prove that my addressing was incorrect. So he didn't prove his point. King David said about his son. Yeah, that's right. And that's why, one of the reasons I hold to that, Joseph, and I'll see him again is that reason.
And also, but that was a covenantal aspect too. John, your bank is back. He's got weird looking ears. Look at those ears, man, that's bad. It's just the headphones. Hey, no, no, no. You can make that up all you want.
But I think you should talk to your doctor about that. Oh boy.
Yeah, I just heard you say you had 10 minutes left. My internet just kept picking me up before, but I figured I'd hop back in. But I was trying to, I was actually gotten to like an over two hour conversation with a church professor.
So what's funny is I went to their private college and graduated from it for three years. It's called Florida College and it's in Florida in Temple Terrace. I went to the college and I believed exactly what they believed.
It was me getting married to my wife. Yeah, my baby coming along, that just God, God changed my life. But I feel like, so God can save anybody, of course, however he wants. But I feel like, I almost feel like to get ripped out of the church of Christ.
I feel like God had to like rip you out of that movement because I was forced to deal with these things. But I was saying this to another church pastor the other day and I said, look, you and I are good acquaintances because they're from my college too.
And I said, but you're not forced to deal with this every day unless you're going after Calvinists or something. But this came into my life and my family and had to deal with my own flesh and blood and baby.
I had to deal with this and the church of Christ, they're not good at apologetics and dealing with other church religions. And they're not very known on the internet. So when I went looking over YouTube of how to deal with the deuterocanons, that's when I found like James White debates and stuff like that.
And I don't know, that's funny. I even had one church of Christ preacher who used to be a best friend, helped me fight against Roman Catholics. He sent me your website and your website has stuff against the church of Christ.
It's funny. It's almost like the church of Christ helped me get out of the church of Christ. But it's just me or am I still not getting what he was talking about in Romans about sinless law? I've never heard that in the amount of time I've been in it.
I've never heard. I still don't understand what was going on right there.
I'm glad you said that because I was confused. I'm thinking, is it just me? But you're confused. Anybody else confused about what he was saying?
I've heard some people say that, sometimes they try to talk about the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic law. So maybe that's what he was talking about. Or some people like New Covenant Theology, NCT, they kind of say that the Old Testament is kind of done away with, but now we follow the law of Christ.
It's some other law that we have to follow. So maybe that's kind of the distinction he was trying to make, that the works of the law of Moses are not what we're trying to follow, but we still need to follow the laws of Christ to be justified.
But still, you don't see that in the text. It's kind of a
Yeah. He said something about, it was about sinless, keeping the law. Those were sinless. That's what he's talking about. He said something to the effect of, Romans is talking about keeping the law or being sinless.
And that's how you can be justified only for sinless. Like, what? That's not how you say that. Yeah. Romans 5, 12, what was wrong was Romans 3, 23. All have sinned. He's not saying that. And then I thought it was kind of, he goes, man, obviously it doesn't understand the context.
I'm like, oh, buddy, I'd love to rip you in shreds on that one. But he didn't make any sense.
No, but he definitely said that he made sense, which is, I guess that's all that matters. If you say that you make perfect sense. I don't know. I was lost that entire time.
I had no idea what was going on. Well, you know, sometimes I'm gonna confess is that I have a little bit of autism. And so sometimes there's certain sentence structures I have difficulty with. It's just how it is.
And I wondered, is this happening in one of these? And I asked a couple, three times, he said the same thing. So, okay.
So, yeah. I usually, with those verses, I hear them say, that's the mosaic law. We're not under the mosaic law and stuff. But where do they get the idea it's mosaic?
The Catholics say that. They'll say, you know, Romans 3, 28, we maintain that man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. That's the mosaic ceremonial law. Where does it say that in the text?
They have to say these things. Oh, yeah. And it's the same law that Paul speaks about. I think it's in Romans six or seven, where he talks about once he knew the law, then he died. It became, the law became real to him.
The spirit convicted him. So if it's the same law there, then it can't just be talking about some ceremonial law because the ceremonial law is no longer applicable to us today. So, yeah, it's like, you have to have different definitions of what law are throughout the entire book of Romans, but then it just kind of defeats your own argument.
Yeah, I've actually done a little bit of study.
On that very issue of the law and where they try and divide it up in order to make it so they can still say that justified by works and faith. And it just doesn't work. In Romans four, you know, he totally screwed up Romans four, totally screwed it up.
You know, it's just like, man, and there's so many, so many things. But at any rate, let's just say that he certainly did not prove his point. He, in first Peter 321, baptism now save you. It's all he would quote.
He didn't quote the rest of it except for once after I called him out on it. And he said, water's what saved him. Water's not what saved him. And then he misquoted me, misrepresented what I said, because my position is that the water in first Peter 321 is in reference to the ark.
That's what I believe it is, because baptism now saves you. Being baptized is what I, excuse me, what I mean is being baptized, being in something. I believe it's a covenantal sign, a federal headship.
And I think that's what's going on there, but he didn't, but I noticed this when I said, hey, let's debate Calvinism. He wasn't so quick to jump on that one.
No, he was like, send me an email. I got excited whenever you said that. I was, I'm hoping to see that on Karm. I'd like to see it, because he might end up being Calvinist after that. If he's predestined.
I'm just saying, you know.
So what is it that someone would misunderstand when they can see that God clearly used water as the instrument to put to death everybody, but the ape and the ark?
That was it, duh. Mr. Matt, what do you think of where they try to say that the word believe is the same as obedience? It's not. Like John 3 .36, Hebrews 5 .9, I think is where they say the word believe is the same as obedience.
If they do say that, it's not. There are different words in the Greek, and it's just not the same thing. But he was trying to say that real faith has obedience to it. This is Roman Catholic. He didn't realize how Roman Catholic he was in a lot of his teachings.
OPC, the only true church, only perfect church. The debate was interrupted with a girl threatening suicide. What? Oh, in the text, you mean? I don't know what to think about that. Love and faith. Yeah.
All right. You know what, I'm gonna get going. Guys, it's been four hours, four and a half hours for me total. Because before this, even, I was on with him and talking. Thanks, Matt, appreciate it. Yeah, I enjoy talking to you guys, too.
Andy and Matt, I know you guys are out there. If we've talked before and I don't remember, sorry. This is how it is. But yeah, you know, we'll do this again. And you guys need to add in some stuff. You know, I like it.
You know, Matt, so I actually have a podcast with two other ex-Mormons. Would you be interested in doing an interview sometime on our podcast?
Sure. All right, should I get you an email? Yeah, and if I don't get to it, because we have thousands, just do it again. But I can talk about how Joseph Smith started me in apologetics.
Yeah, that's what you started. Started karma, pretty much was Mormonism. So that's why we'd be interested to talk to you about it.
Right, and Charlie's the one who read me the quote that got me started. So yeah, we've got a bit of a thing. Yeah, sure, we can talk about it, it'd be fine. That's right. If you wanna read the quote, there's the link for it right there.
That quote pissed me off. And I started studying because of it. So here we are 40 years later. All right, guys. Hey, nice meeting you too, Andy. And it was great.
Yeah, and if any of you guys are free in the time zone you're in during the show, Monday through Friday, gosh, I hope you can call in because all the topics you've mentioned have been things that I think would interest the radio.
And call the show and give us the feedback of what you guys thought of the debate. And I'm supposed to debate unlimited atonement with Sam Shimon next month, I think it is. And then got another debate on original sin, total depravity with somebody else getting set up.
And somebody else wants to debate on something else. So I don't know.
Okay. Yeah, big fan. Y 'all are doing awesome work. I appreciate what y 'all do. I watch it every day that comes on on my reminder. I work at home, so I get it and I get to watch it while I'm working, so yeah.
Good, that means you're a smart, spiritual man. Good for you. All right, thanks guys. I'm out of here. All right, we'll see you guys. I'm gonna end it for everybody. See you, have a great evening. Okay, God bless, bye.
