The Pope Goes Emergent, the Jack Chick of Catholic Apologetics, and Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:41

And greetings welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning I have no video going on in here and the the theme started three times

00:51

I'm not really sure whether we've really actually started or not. Ah, there we go. There's something

00:56

Must be too early in the morning for the technical people. We won't mention anyone by name that there's only one person

01:01

Not enough coffee yet, but what can I say? Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep Great 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 might take some phone calls today

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I assume probably will at some point maybe Hear that you could just sit on hold for an hour.

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It's possible. Don't know if you don't like that just Blame the

01:24

Queen Yes, I will not attempt to do any

01:30

John Samson impersonations because that would be disastrous disastrous indeed, um

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So, so who do you think said this I I I want to see if you can figure out who said this

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God is not afraid of new things. God is not afraid of new things

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Now I just sort of sit back and go What's a new thing to God now

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I suppose That one of our open theist friends I could say that because there are new things to open theists

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Godding encounters new things. He can write new songs To quote one particular open theist that we spent probably too much time on this past July reviewing

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Yeah, uh, but but what's new to God if you're actually Orthodox What what's a new thing to God Because if God has known it from eternity past and it's not really new.

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Is it? No, not really So and maybe this was just one of those skinny -jeaned

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Emergent guys, maybe that that sounds like something Brian Zahn would say right, you know,

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God's not afraid of new things and So it's sort of like, you know, God's our buddy and and he's in it with us

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You know, we're fist bumping and doing the thing, you know, and and that kind of stuff maybe

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Possibly I suppose Maybe that's what the new things maybe it's

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Brian McLaren, you know a new thing in the emergent camp, you know,

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God likes new things Rob Bell, I mean Wow That that would fit in whatever the next wins book is, you know

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God is not afraid of new things and and of course liberals Liberals are real into that kind of language, too

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God is not afraid of new thing I mean what would God be afraid of in the first place of course and then the whole idea of new things and but but for a

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Christian it Just doesn't make a lick of sense to say God is not afraid of new things Maybe you're talking about well, there's there's

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Developments in human history and God isn't afraid of developments in human history Well, what do you mean by developments in human history nuclear weapons?

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Medical imaging Ebola I'm not sure how it would be relevant whether God is a afraid of Ebola I don't know

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But I think most of you probably Know that the person who recently said

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God is not afraid of new things was Pope Francis Yeah during a beatification mass

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Somehow during the same period is this a very interesting synod that produced that very interesting

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Document that some people try to do a little backpedaling on but you can't really backpedal on that kind of stuff because all the document

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Was telling you it was these the conversations were being had in the synod This is what the bishops are saying.

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This is what they're talking about in the midst of all that you have

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Pope Francis Not Pope Francis the first there has to be a Francis the second.

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I learned that the hard way Pope Francis pointedly said during the beatification mass

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God is not afraid of new things now Unfortunately, I kind of language can mean almost anything but that's the whole point here, isn't it?

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I mean, I Don't that I don't think for a moment that any serious minded person

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Could possibly disagree with a statement that the perspectives and beliefs of Pope Francis in In regards to any number of vitally important and definitional issues is fundamentally different than that of Well, I would say any

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Pope before 1900 but shall we go for you know

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Innocent the tenth or something like that, you know go for someone specific I mean, it just seems obvious to me that You have to believe in sola ecclesia to be able to function as a a

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Roman Catholic apologist today because How else could you do it

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I mean this whole idea of This whole concept of the infallibility of the church and unchangeability the church

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It has changed and is changing and could change in the future and the only way to maintain it then is to say well

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But we get to define what is and is not infallible and we get to define what we meant back then and what we mean now and you can't look at the history and you can't you can't look at the

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Context and and and you can't look at what people are writing outside of of the councils and things like that That's you know, that's normally how you determine historical stuff, but not in this case not in this we only the church and can define these things and So I'm just sort of wondering

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I'm really wondering what's gonna come out of this synod What are the new things

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God is not afraid of Pope Francis I Would be really interested in Knowing that I mean already.

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I'm just sort of sitting back and if if this guy is sending Videos and sort of chumming around with people like Kenneth Copeland Not real high on this guy's discernment in the first place

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I would say And Again who's really high on the

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Pope's discernment of pretty much anything I suppose but It's gonna be very interesting to see what comes out of this this synod and And how

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Rome? Manages to find some way of spinning it Because they'll they'll need to be spinning it.

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But there you have today's papal quote Not that we have a feature where we feature papal quotes, but sounded good

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God is not afraid of new things Pope Francis and Hmm, we will we will see what comes that speaking of Roman Catholicism and eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number of for all of the the

08:55

Legions of people who wish to call in and I don't know have a discussion about anything other than eschatology

09:05

I suppose and not something I really am interested in getting into but Last night.

09:13

I was down here at the office and Till after dark and I I Jumped to the car and I didn't want to listen to Mark Levin screaming again.

09:29

I can only take about Two and a half minutes of that kind of berating he reminds me so much.

09:36

What's that guy? What's that nasty? Anti -Calvinist guy. I think he's based out of Australia He he put out a video recently going after John MacArthur He couldn't he couldn't pronounce

09:49

Rolls name and and he's just that he's just this really Interesting dude who stands up there and just yells at people

10:00

And his name is slipping my mind at the moment because he just yells at people and hence I don't really find him all that interesting.

10:08

Um, oh Someone in channel just stole a an al moeller quote and misused it.

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I'm not sure if we can allow that I might have to kick piano man out in a Genesis 3 world.

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God is not afraid of new things I guess start using in a

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Genesis 3 world because it's fairly obvious to me that that dr.

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Moeller thinks that theology matters and dividing line are are his and I'm just Need to remind folks including dr.

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Moeller that not so I might you know, just have to start stepping on somebody else's territory and talking about Genesis 3 worlds but anyway

10:57

What was that guy's name Did it did it did it? Anyways, he just yells and and screams at people and I can't handle

11:05

Mark Levin that way either so I Decide to pop on over to the local

11:15

EWTN immaculate heart station see what was on see was and the problem was

11:22

The Sun's setting so much earlier when they go to When they go to low power

11:29

Wow, it really starts breaking up and why I discovered is as I'm driving toward my house

11:38

Basically by the time I get to my house it's gone. I I can't I can pick it up here at the office

11:43

So as I'm driving, I'm listening, but it's getting worse and worse and worse and and by the time I got within about I don't know

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Because a mile the house my guys had to turn it off because it was it was just gone. I couldn't hear it anymore Which was why

11:56

I couldn't figure out. I Mean, I jumped online. I said man, I want to I want to review this this talk

12:04

I want to I want to talk about this because this was this was

12:12

The best example that I knew of that I can show you of Jack Chick as a

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Roman Catholic now some of you don't know who Jack Chick is most of you Jack Chick is

12:31

Looks like we're having all sorts of feed problems today What's come on, man?

12:37

I mean You know, I thought I was gonna say I thought I was gonna say The earlier in the day the better and Evidently, that's not the case

12:46

Uh -huh. Yeah, okay. All right when when my daughter's complaining on Twitter that This ain't working.

12:53

That's that's not a good thing and We reset stuff, didn't we? Great The the

13:02

Nets working well today I guess some folks will have to just drop over to the well, we're not showing anything today

13:10

I don't have any video to play so you might as well jump over the MP3 Well, it's really it's really distracting to see all the

13:23

Discussion and channel about well, let's talk about something else cuz he's gone, you know, that's it's all the audio feeds working good yeah, that's what

13:31

I was gonna say we feel might jump over the audio feed and forget about the video today anyways

13:39

But Some people are saying reloading the YouTube page actually helps. I'm not sure why that would be but who knows who knows anyway

13:50

What I heard On this program on Immaculate Heart Radio Jack chick,

13:59

I told you I got I got that far was the Jack chick or the Roman Catholics. I mean Jack chick is well known for his really really really really bad arguments against well

14:11

He's King James only and he had the Alberto stuff and and all that kind of stuff and You know

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Roman Catholic apologists like to make fun of Jack chick cuz it's easy to make fun of Jack chick because when you use

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Bad arguments and people can make fun of you well Rome has its own

14:31

Jack chicks, believe me and I found out this morning who this guy was names

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Clayton Bauer and I Didn't have time to go through and you know

14:44

Do the normal editing stuff because I only got the I bought the program this morning and Got it down here via Dropbox but I found exactly where I turned on the radio and so I'm gonna

15:02

I'm gonna fire this up right where I came in. So you'll hear exactly what

15:08

I heard and I'm just gonna make some comments and then we'll start going to the calls because we've got a number of callers online already

15:17

Austin and and Roger In an interesting place

15:23

I've never heard of before something tells me that that's probably Annapolis not

15:28

Kannapolis, but I know it's Kannapolis never heard of it. Anyways, we'll get to them but here's

15:36

Here's Clayton Bauer Roman Catholic apology. He's introduced at the beginning as as a scholar of Scripture And so here's

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Here's what got my attention and I am gonna play it again just one click faster than normal because otherwise we just sort of sit here and and You all can handle it.

15:59

So here's here's Clayton Bauer and This is a talk called where we got the Bible where we got the

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Bible pick and choose Some you might like some you might not like but sorry, they're all Authentic they are all vouched for by the

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Catholic Church. You can't pull out seven You don't like it might surprise you Martin Luther didn't want to stop at seven Martin Luther did not like the epistles of John and the epistles of James He called what this is a straw throw him away.

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They're like, hey, we don't need them Well now I've always wanted to ask these folks. So why does he keep quoting them as Scripture?

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Why are their entire master's theses and doctoral dissertations on Luther's continued utilization of James?

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In his later writings, etc, etc. Why why was there never an attempt to? Quote unquote call a council or anything.

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Why not? Why not mention those things? It's because Just as there are bad arguments

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That float around amongst Protestants in regards to Pope Joan and stuff like that that just well, that sounds really good

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I think I'll throw that one out the next time I talk to my Roman Catholic relatives There are really bad arguments amongst

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Roman Catholics and you can tell the Roman Catholics Who just aren't up to really?

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Engaging meaningfully because they'll pull pull from that kind of pool of bad arguments Just like there are

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Protestants who aren't up to really engaging Roman Catholicism. They do the exact same thing and Both of them are just you know both sides would be appropriately identified as either anti -catholic or anti -protestant because When you use bad argumentation, that's the way to go

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That's you know, just use bad arguments and and it'll like these are well other Protestants.

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Wait a minute. We've gone far enough We're not we're not doing that sadly many liberal Protestant churches don't believe any of them anymore. They're all phony, they're all just a literature

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It's thanks to the Catholic Church that the authority of Scripture was maintained and the integrity of it maintained now to finish up I said,

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I hope I don't offend people picking on King James the King James Bible But some things have to be said about this

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As I said, you can ask a non Catholic who's confronting you where'd the book come from? You can ask them where are the originals you can ask them also who was

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King James? Who was King James King James was a political head of state now?

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I'm wondering is this guy right into a lot of King James only guys or something Is that is that what this is about?

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He was the king of England an hereditary Politician not elected but born or sometimes coming to the throne because of the death of the predecessor

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His mother was Mary Queen of Scots who had her head cut off by Elizabeth He was a political authority not a religious authority.

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He wasn't a bishop. He wasn't a priest. He was a king Now you might say well doesn't a king have some authority over Scripture? No, no, how many people here would buy a

18:47

Bill Clinton Bible? Okay, how many would buy a Bill Clinton? That's absurd Must be an older talk

18:54

Because now be significantly more effective to say how many would buy a Barack Obama Bible that would be a much

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But this evidently comes from a while back or Bill Clinton said to Congress Well, let's have a committee and have the committee write one for us

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And you can picture Ted Kennedy heading the committee or something. So boy, that's really old because now wait a minute wasn't he up?

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Oh, never mind. I Thought Ted Kennedy was a good Catholic boy. At least that's what they say.

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Anyway, um The the problem here obviously is that you have popes who were

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Clearly deeply involved in politics Involved in the translation of the

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Bible for Roman Catholics as well. I mean The the history of the

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Latin Vulgate The idea of putting out an infallible Vulgate under papal authority

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Long history and all of these things and The papacy has been a political animal

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Then one of its great downfalls for a very very very long time And so to to try to pretend not now, of course

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How much involvement did The King have in the translation of King James Bible Some he gave some guidelines, but it wasn't like he was overly involved with it

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I mean he said you'll translate church as church and not as assembly and Baptized you'll transliterate rather than actually translate and a few things like that.

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So he had some some influence along those lines, but it was fairly minimal and But there was political there was political reasoning behind the translation of King James because the the

20:42

Geneva Bible just had too much had too much clout because of its notes and And many of those notes restricted the authority of the throne and so there was a reason for one for it was one of the reasons for the translation of the

20:59

King James was to try to replace the Geneva and the the influence the

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Geneva's notes primarily Had on on laypeople, but well, that's what King James did call the committee and he says produce one for me

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Henry The eighth had one he wanted one. Sorry. No The only authority over the

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Bible is the church. No King no politician. No Congress. No Parliament What authority does the

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King James Bible have none? The only authority it has is so long as it's in conformity with what the

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Catholic Bible has Otherwise it has no authority as I said the shocks many many non

21:34

Catholics, but it's true It's true another sad thing King James wasn't Catholic. He was brought up Protestant deliberately.

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His mother was Catholic That's one of the reasons she had her head cut off James was taken from her as a baby and raised as a Protestant when

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Elizabeth died and James is gonna be king They went shopping around Europe for a noblewoman who was a Protestant and they settled on the

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Lutheran princess and of Denmark But what had happened to princess Anne after she became Queen not too long after becoming

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Queen of King James Who ordered this she became a Catholic many Protestants don't know that King James own wife and the

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Protestant became a Catholic Another sad thing is King James became a degenerate towards the end of his reign

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He was scandalizing the court because he had a male lover the Duke of Buckingham Is that the kind of authority to share control over Scripture?

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Wait a minute Does this guy really think that that Protestants think that King James somehow had authority over the

22:29

Bible Sounds like it sounds like that. That's what he's saying I Don't even

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I mean even King James only us don't go there. It's not a name. I've heard I mean some of them will defend

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King James to the end and defend him against the various accusations made against all that kind of stuff but but just just the thinking here is just so Disconnected from having but then again, it just reminds me

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How long ago was it? The Guardian was supposed to call in with his list of you know, all of my errors. Oh It's at least four years.

23:05

I think I think it's more than that You look you look at the Catholic answers forums and sadly this kind of thinking this

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Insulated I don't ever have meaningful interaction with anything outside of Roman Catholicism It's scary.

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It's it's scary. And I know there are people on the other side that There are lots of Protestants that know

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Nothing whatsoever about Roman Catholicism. They their opposition to Rome is is thoroughly based upon Traditional ignorance and nothing more there are a lot of reasons to oppose

23:39

Rome Unfortunately jack chick missed most of them and that's the problem These are the facts that they just don't know you have to go to the

23:48

Catholic Church who protects and defends Bible So poor King James Had quite a reputation and sadly it's not known now a couple of funny things to to wind up with The Bible is inspired the

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Catholic Bible However printers are not inspired printing presses are not inspired now

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I was I was wondering where he's could be going here because of course there have been

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Printing errors in Catholic versions of the Bible too. That's hardly relevant, but I Really started wondering

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Does he think? That printing errors would have something to do

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With sola scriptura because all of this is Fundamentally an attack on solo scriptura.

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I Mean is he's so ignorant of what the real issues are That that's where he's gonna go

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Printers apprentices are not inspired that the signal is starting to break up here. So I was really having to start

24:49

Struggle to catch all this editors aren't inspired. What am I getting at? Keep in mind non -catholics say the

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Bible alone. That's all you go by. That's all you can go by forget the church Yeah, I heard specifically that let's let's listen to that again.

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Here is another straw man misrepresentation and Again, if if these folks were being in any way

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Trying to meaningfully study the other side and this is one of the primary problems

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I have with the vast majority of Roman Catholic apologists If you listen to the vast majority of the most popular

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Roman Catholic apologists to this day They do not invest their time in listening to what their critics are saying.

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They do not invest their time in Advancing their apologetic as long as their apologetic is

25:43

Keeping the income level where it needs to be That's good enough.

25:49

That's good enough. Here's an individual who clearly has No meaningful experience in interacting with any strong non -catholic

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Criticisms of his faith because he couldn't say this stuff. Listen to what he says again. What am I getting at? Well, keep in mind non -catholics say the

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Bible alone. That's all you go by. That's all you can go by forget the church Forget the church really

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Who says that I? Mean I know in your mind Mr. Bauer That To say to remember the church means just the

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Roman Church ultimate authority infallible Above scripture all the rest I cast of I I get that But for those of us who actually read the

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New Testament and look at the church that is found there It doesn't have Pope's and it doesn't have

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Cardinals and it doesn't have this massive magisterium. It has two offices elder and deacon

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And it doesn't have seven sacraments when we look at that church the actual

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Church of Christ founded We find that church to be subservient to scripture and to view

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Scripture as being the honest us as God breathes. It's Christ speaking And so scripture is the means by which

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God speaks to the church And so the church is always reformed by the scriptures which are divine and which are entrusted to church

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But remain the authority over the church, that's what that's what we see and so we never say

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It's just you alone under under a tree and there's no church now There are some weird wacky people that are non

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Catholics, but I would also say they're non Protestants They certainly having to do with the Reformers Who go off and do their weird thing, but you see

27:42

It seems that Clayton Bauer has the idea that either you're a Catholic or you're the guy sitting under the tree and That's it.

27:50

And there's you know, the funny thing is we can see how How cartoonish this caricature is with something like Clayton Bauer?

27:59

But you gotta understand the real argument of the of the call to confusion guys is the same thing. It's just much more fancy Just you know a lot more it takes you a lot more digging to get down to that's fundamentally what they're saying

28:12

You know the paint the paint the target on the wall and around the arrow type thing. That's pretty much same argument

28:18

It's just you have to go all over the place to to get around to it

28:24

But it's it's pretty much same argument, but that's as a straw man, no one says forget the church

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That's not what soul scriptura is and the vast majority of attacks on soul scriptura launched by both

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Catholics and Orthodox are aimed at straw men. I mean there are flaming straw men everywhere

28:43

Well, if you do that, you've got problems lots of problems For instance, there are sections in the

28:49

King James that might make you chuckle one of them One of my favorites the Wicked Bible. It was the

28:54

King James version of 1795 Called the Wicked Bible because something was misprinted in exodus

29:00

It had a list of the Commandments and there's one commandment where the word not was left out

29:05

Instead of saying thou shalt not commit adultery the King James of 1795 else said thou shalt commit adultery

29:13

Well, if you go by the Bible alone, it's gonna be a lot of trouble If you go by the

29:18

Bible alone, there's gonna be a lot of trouble really Seriously that's that's right

29:24

I I was almost uncertain last evening on the radio as to whether I was hearing that Because it was so silly

29:35

This is an English translation It's a typographical error of an English translation.

29:40

It's not the Bible The Bible was written in Hebrew Aramaic and Greek long before the

29:45

English language came into existence Any type of graphical error any mistranslation New World Translation Joseph Smith inspired version.

29:54

I don't care. What are irrelevant To the Bible or to Sola Scriptura.

30:01

I mean, oh just bad bad bad bad bad stuff but that's that's what you've got coming out of coming out of Rome and So I once I have the time

30:15

I'm gonna go through this. It's only an hour and nine minutes long and I'll do the Mark stuff up so we can get to the important stuff thing

30:22

But that's what I heard last night as I was driving home and I said myself man I've got it. I'm gonna get that and so I I Couldn't get it last night because the online schedule stuff was completely different than what

30:34

I was hearing The online schedule said I was listening to a rosary program. I don't think so and I tried calling the station last night.

30:42

They weren't open So I finally called this morning a really nice young lady answered said well actually here locally we're we've got some other stuff on in the evenings then

30:50

EWTN and and This was the program and boom. I was able to get it had to pay for it, but I was able to get the

31:01

Get the presentation and it's called fair use guys Because it's st.

31:06

Joseph's So we've we've had our we've had our experiences the st. Joseph's Catholic communications or whatever it is they call themselves but Just really bad stuff really really poor argumentation, but it's out there and so you have to deal with the bad stuff as well as the good stuff and So what?

31:30

What oh, I it's it's it's a joke that I I would have to have read back. Oh, okay.

31:36

Great. Thanks Yeah, sometimes sometimes the channel is definitely very very distracting when it comes to 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 for the few of you who are actually able to hear us

31:49

I guess it's going pretty well at the moment. So and okay I mean if your monism senses go off So, I guess we have a

32:01

Molinist coming moving to Phoenix But an engineering job in Phoenix moving from New York if your

32:07

Molinism senses go off that's me arriving that's like Okay, well,

32:13

I'm not even go there not Not right now. Let's take some phone calls and talk to Austin.

32:20

Hi Austin Hey, dr. White. Hey Just wanted to say thanks to your ministry as a college student is encountering a lot of postmodernism

32:28

Chapel Hill Everybody Chapel Hill is a good solid Bible believe in the

32:33

Christian. There's no unbelievers in Chapel Hill Well, there's a one former believer in Chapel.

32:40

Yes, I know Took his class last semester

32:46

Congratulations. Yes. Yes. It was very good to have to struggle through some of that stuff.

32:51

But this semester I'm taking a sort of a after the New Testament class on early church history with one of his colleagues and The professor's been bringing up sort of the

33:00

Pauline authorship and simply the pastoral epistles and I'm having a hard time.

33:06

I don't know if I'm not understanding it correctly, but his argument just doesn't seem to make sense to me I wanted to See if I could get your take on it

33:11

You mean there might be some circularity because you come up with a theory of church history That you don't derive from the

33:18

New Testament documents and then you try to make the New Testament documents fit your theory and as a result

33:24

The pastoral epistles have to be later because in your theory that's a later form of the church and therefore you mean that problem

33:32

Yeah, it's something like that. Yeah Might have I laid out for you real quick. Sure. You mean

33:38

I just lay it out for you Well sort of his arguments, you know, first Corinthians is written mid 50 pastoral around 90 and we know they're not written by the same person because We've got two completely different church structures and first Corinthians.

33:53

We've got the Sort of the charismatic group. No Monarchical no structure anything like that and the pastorals got bishops and deacons and all that stuff and so clearly there's a development over time and he says the reason for the development is because Paul thought that Jesus was coming back immediately.

34:11

And so he didn't think that there was any need for Some kind of long -term stable structure.

34:16

So he set up some free -roaming charismatic group Whereas after he died the

34:22

Christian community starts freaking out because Jesus has been too long Jesus doesn't come back. So they decided we need a more stable church structure and they come up with bishops and deacons and all that stuff

34:33

The reason I'm having a hard time with that is I don't know. He said the pastorals were written in 90 so and They the first Timothy presupposes the existence of bishops and deacons and those positions

34:47

So clearly they were in existence before that and if Paul dies in the mid -60s That means in just a few short years the whole

34:54

Christian community starts freaking out That it's been too long and Jesus hasn't come back and they decide they need some different church structure

35:01

I don't know. It just seems to me that not enough time has passed for something like that to happen given his dating Yeah, well, there's there's a couple things there

35:11

Again the theory determines your conclusions because You end up having to dismiss

35:16

Ephesians and Colossians as Pauline as well. I'm assuming he does he probably has the seven Yes, same thing as Herman.

35:24

Okay. Yeah, so you have to get rid of Ephesians and Colossians because you clearly do have a very settled church structure in those places and the the much more obvious explanation for the more fluid situation in Corinth in comparison to Colossae or Ephesus or Philippi or what you have in the pastorals is

35:47

I mean historically if you don't begin with the assumption of You know the the evolutionary

35:54

Bauer type stuff, which if I'm I imagine you sound like you've probably already read the heresy of orthodoxy

36:04

Okay. Well then you're familiar with with how many holes there are in Bauer's thesis on so many different levels and yet this is the whole all of this is still based upon demanding that kind of Bowery and Evolution that there can't be an actual apostolic ministry and apostolic revelation of truth, etc, etc

36:27

It would seem that the more obvious answer for why there is something different and there is in Corinth Is the nature of the

36:36

Corinthian Church? Which if you look at church history, let's just leave the the

36:42

New Testament authorship stuff off to the side for a moment What's one of the what are the earliest?

36:49

Extant writings that we have outside of the New Testament First Clement.

36:55

Okay, you've got Clement. You've got the Didache and you've got Ignatius, right? And what does what does

37:02

Clement show us? That Corinth kept having problems And I mean it just seems to be

37:12

Endemic in the Corinthian Church that there is and what is that? What is the problem that they have in Clements letter?

37:19

And of course, we all know Clements name is not attached its tradition, you know The idea that he was bishop and all the rest that stuff he was probably actually just a secretary for the plurality of elders that they had at Rome at that point in time

37:33

Rome did not have a monarchical Episcopate until the middle of the second century, but What's problem they have they've kicked out their elders there is rebelliousness and so if you were just to It's interesting if these folks were just to allow the

37:51

New Testament documents to really Be the the source the best source they have for the

38:00

New Testament Church they wouldn't come to these conclusions because those documents would give them a very Plausible understanding of why

38:08

Corinth seems to be in a different Category than Ephesus where Paul doesn't have a whole lot of time in Corinth But he stays for years in Ephesus and wow, there's hmm.

38:18

There's a difference between the two. Yeah when you can actually Raise up elders and and raise up people who can are gifted by God to function that way man has a big impact upon the results in that church and if you would understand understand that they're assuming some kind of uniformity as If all churches have to be the same

38:42

Well just read I mean, I don't know when they when your author your professor dates

38:51

Revelation but Look at what is said to the seven churches those seven churches are not identical with one another

38:58

If you just allow the New Testament to actually be the basis you would recognize

39:03

You know what? There were differences between churches. There are differences between churches today

39:09

I mean even amongst churches that would be I think Reformed Baptist churches have massive consistency all across the globe

39:19

But that doesn't change the fact and I'm one I traveled to lots of Reformed Baptist churches

39:25

I see differences. We have the same hymnal We have the same confession of faith and yet I see differences between those churches and that's what

39:33

I see in the New Testament, too But they can't allow that because there is let's be honest.

39:39

There is an external authority here. There's something functioning in their analysis of that information that that requires them to come up with a different a different understanding and so yeah

39:53

It's saying that that by operating on the presupposition that there must be some uniform church structure at all times that they are forced to push

40:00

Ephesians Colossians and the pastorals back farther to fit there Well, that's one that's one of their assumptions that needs to be analyzed

40:07

The other assumption is that we don't really have to use the New Testament We can we can

40:15

Allege the New Testament to be an error until it's proven innocent They go that they go the opposite direction rather than allowing the

40:23

New Testament to be the default source that would then lead us to understand These things the New Testament is

40:28

Subject to you know naturalistic revision and changes and you know

40:33

Ermine's silent years stuff and all the rest of stuff even though there's there's no evidence of that kind of wholesale

40:40

Editing or changing before the first manuscripts all the rest that stuff We still throw it out there and that way you can you can basically throw

40:48

Ephesians Colossians the pastorals out It's very very effective as I'm sure you probably saw

40:53

To convince people that a number of the books in New Testament are actually forgeries

41:00

That's that's very effective because fundamentally the desire is to undercut the the faith of believing

41:07

Christians that's that's That's what he's up to and I think the final day is going to illustrate that very clearly all right, and Do you have any resources you'd recommend on Pauline authorship?

41:22

well Pretty much any if you're talking about the pastorals There's a

41:28

I've always found the Kistemacher What was who's the other guy?

41:35

Um Anyway that that said it wasn't Kistemacher was the other guy and the names escaping me in 30 seconds from now

41:43

It'll pop up in the in the channel, but I don't have my commentaries in here That set on the the introduction to the pastorals had an excellent analysis of things like The word usage studies and all that kind of stuff

42:05

Really good introduction. That's where you find most of it. I think is in good commentaries sometimes the older commentaries because a lot of this stuff's been around for a long long time and the introductory sections will

42:20

Will provide a good good amount of information All right. Thank you very much.

42:25

All right. Thanks Austin and congratulations on surviving Bart Ehrman. Thank you very much

42:31

We'll talk to you later. Bye bye All right, so let's press on and talk to Roger in is this right

42:41

Kannapolis? That's right. Dr. White Kanapolis, North Carolina. How are you? Um, well riches riches feeling vindicated in the other world other other world other world

42:53

Kanapolis is actually about only about 30 miles Away from Charlotte, North Carolina.

43:00

Okay. All right. Well, that means that in January of 2016

43:07

I'll be doing something around there because I know I'm teaching for RTS in the Jan term in January of 2016 and Obviously what

43:15

I'll try to do is is arrange some debates and some other speaking stuff around that area

43:21

So mark it on your calendar and by the way, as I just said it took 30 seconds

43:26

But turds and fan William Hendrickson is what I was the name I was trying to find there for the last caller and for those watching on Video anyways, right.

43:35

What can we do for you? Well, let me just say it would be great to have a lot more of a reform thought around here in our community

43:41

I'm actually a youth pastor of an SBC Church and I'm served under a senior pastor who happens to be a strong Armenian But they thankfully he's open to the conversation about that topic

43:54

Well, I hope I hope Roger isn't your actual name We have people who listen to this program that are writing this down right now

44:02

They're looking up every Southern Baptist Church in Kannapolis, North Carolina, and they're they're drawing targets on every youth minister right now

44:10

I assure you There's gonna be a there's gonna be a van coming out of the woods of South Georgia heading for North Carolina within the hour

44:18

Looking for you Position Anyway, I just got a quick question that probably won't take too much of your time

44:33

But of course, you know around here there's a quite a conversation going on about gay marriage with all of the things going on in the legal realm and I had a conversation where I've never really heard of this argument before So I wanted to know what your thoughts were on it

44:49

I had a friend was speaking about how the churches might respond to the gay marriage and in the

44:55

Of course, I referenced Jesus in Matthew chapter 19 where yeah, yeah, he's read the reaffirms

45:03

God's position in the Old Testament and He quoted what

45:09

Jesus said about Moses and how he allowed for divorce because of the hardness of the hearts and he used that basically in his argument as a as a way that That that we set the president precedence for the for the church to possibly be able to redefine marriage in accordance with the culture

45:35

Well, that's an interesting way of of reading reading Jesus words as if the hardness of hearts

45:45

Means that okay. Well, we'll give in on this when Jesus is actually rebuking the

45:54

Scribes and Pharisees For not seeing what the intention was and the whole idea seems to be well, we know what the real ideal from God's perspective is

46:09

But since our society is Falling into such gross rebellion and such

46:19

Uncivilized and and and ungodly perspectives and we don't want to become irrelevant

46:27

Then we're looking for any possible way of Allowing for some kind of redefinition,

46:35

I mean using that argumentation you might as well go back to polygamy and And everything else

46:43

Which may be coming in the very near future as well In fact, I don't see how it could not be coming in the very near future.

46:50

I think we'll have polygamy in in the land within It could be within the year.

46:56

I mean the way things are going the speed now is just it's not a downward spiral

47:02

It's it's we've jumped off a cliff and we forgot the parachute. So it seems to be reading things backwards and it seems to be

47:09

Assuming that the role of the church is to rather than being salt and light it's to be an anchor in the sense of slowing a

47:22

Ship down as it's being driven by the storm to destruction or something along those lines sort of a rear guard action rather than shining a light and being a means of directing people to God's truth.

47:42

We have to recognize that if if God chooses and it seems that he is choosing to bring a

47:49

Tremendous level of judgment upon this nation and none of us could ever argue that he's unjust to be doing this the amount of light against which the

48:00

United States is sinning each and every day is Absolutely amazing and The reality is that what we should be talking about is

48:11

God's great patience and not having brought this judgment to bear Long before he has but if he does bring judgment to bear to where?

48:22

There is a whole scale embracing of That which is ungodly that which is false in regards to human sexuality marriage

48:35

Every possible human relationship relationship between Generations between Species, so all the things all the perversions we could think of from incest to bestiality to pedophilia to all of these things if the society embraces an anti -godly perspective on all those things

48:57

We are not looking for a way to continue to fit in and be relevant

49:02

The relevancy for us at that point is to function the way that that we're called to function and that is to to warn the society of the judgment of God and to point to the to the higher way not to go well, um,

49:18

If you won't go all the way up here, how about something halfway? I mean, that's that's sort of that's

49:25

I think that's where Rome's heading. We've heard me honest with you Roman theology and it's in its gradualism allows for that but the

49:36

Bible does not and You know, I I think of this is actually interestingly enough parallel in a very important way to something we talked about a couple years ago when

49:47

I played a Discussion that took place at one of the major publishers with a

49:52

Mormon and a Christian and The idea has been well, can we gradually move

49:58

Mormons toward a form of Orthodoxy one? Little step at a time a little less polytheism a little more monotheism, you know a little less on you become a god

50:09

You know one step at a time that that type of gradualism That's that's Rome's perspective.

50:15

And as I point out the time that's not the apostolic perspective when Paul spoke to the Galatians He said you once worship those which are by nature not

50:22

God's but you were delivered from that We call you know, we have the fullness of the

50:28

Revelation in Jesus Christ, and that's all we have To offer to this society and if this is society decides that it has no interest in God's glorious truth

50:42

And decides to say that we are irrelevant The only person that we have to be concerned about being relevant before is

50:49

God not this society the society does not judge the church in any way shape or form

50:56

And Basically You know,

51:04

I responded by saying, you know Moses may have allowed divorce for the hardness of hearts, but God never gives permission for hearts to be hard to begin with he's always

51:13

Demanding repentance and things of that nature. So, um, yeah, I really do appreciate that. Uh that response and Look forward to seeing you and hearing from you in 2016 and maybe we'll get to meet each other in person

51:25

Well, hopefully well enough and hopefully that that van coming out of the woods of South Georgia will have a flat or something

51:32

Never get up to you. So yeah All right, thank you Roger God bless.

51:38

Bye. Bye. All right, let's get one more in here before we run out of time the program today and talk to Victor hi

51:45

Victor Hi, I'm dr. White. How's it going? Don't it's going going good Just a quick question on LGBT matters.

51:55

I'm actually I've got two questions if you if you don't mind first one is how come but first of all

52:01

You don't sound like you're from New Jersey actually No, I'm not I'm actually live in Sydney, I mean us for working holiday, uh -huh.

52:11

Yes good well Welcome, even though New Jersey where in New Jersey, I'm Saddle River Okay, I'm not sure where that is, but there are nice parts,

52:21

New Jersey And then there are the other parts of New Jersey. I hope you're in the next year. I Am I am at the nicer part?

52:28

Okay good Sorry Those of you who live in the not -so -nice parts of New Jersey, but you already knew you live in the not -so -nice parts of New Jersey So anyway, so Victor from from Australia.

52:43

Yes, the LGBTQ RSTUV stuff. Yes Yeah, so I mean

52:49

I read an article from your friend. Dr. White. I saw dr. Brown recently

52:54

It's all they're bland colors. They mix together and it's yeah Okay, and uh, hello

53:06

Hello. Oh No Victor you need to call us back someone a

53:16

Sunspot just took out your cell phone or something. I don't know We didn't do it.

53:21

I didn't touch anything. The cursor is a long ways away from the drop button. I didn't do it Well call back

53:28

Victor. We got just enough time to sneak in by the way I'm Jacob Prosh Thank you,

53:34

Jimmy the intense preacher on Twitter You were talking about Jacob Prosh who screamed about MacArthur and against Calvinism with bad historical information.

53:44

Yes, that is very true I'm looking at some of the others Kofi reminds me of Hendrickson.

53:52

Yes, I and I knew I got that Riddle Barger is excellent as his Sam Storms Anthony Hokema and GK Beal I guess there was a question somewhere along the lines about a millennial ism in there but There's the stuff on No call, huh?

54:08

Oh, man What the biggest battery went that did sound like a battery didn't it?

54:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's that sounded like end of the line, right? Yeah, and if and he may be like so many the rest of us don't have a landline no more

54:24

And once that battery goes unless your charger is nearby It's uh, it's it's all over with well, you know, that is something you never saw in Star Trek.

54:35

Yeah captain. She can't take much more That's because obviously by then they've fixed the battery problem

54:45

It is on a curve. It is an upward curve. I mean my Mac on the flights now pretty

54:53

Pretty nice pretty nice some of those overseas flights and you can still kill him kill a

55:00

Mac, but It was it was was pretty good. So Anyways, sorry

55:06

Victor. The question was on LGBT beer and I guess it probably had something to do the general idea that he called in with was there.

55:16

Maybe that's him Let me there's ring and I will now do a beautiful whistled version of amazing grace it

55:25

It's live folks. What can I say? We don't we don't pretend, you know, and Nope, not him, huh?

55:33

So can you can you put that person on hold a second and tell me what the general?

55:39

Idea was yes. No, maybe What was that?

55:46

What was okay. So the gist he was going after was he I think is sensing a fear among ministers in general of this issue and I'm not exactly sure what conclusions.

55:57

He's drawing at this point. Well, he's generalized fear hey That is exactly what that side wants that They are fear mongers

56:08

They want to use the system to punish anyone. I didn't I Don't think

56:18

Oh Drat, I I don't think that I had the URL Uh, let me see if it's still back here

56:31

Because I did pull this up Oh something about oh no, huh

56:51

There was a video that I was linked to last night

56:56

I think or this morning And I'm pretty sure it was before this Where there was an amazing state it

57:06

I I have the video in Dropbox. I don't have time to bring it up But I was just going to read the comment

57:16

That yeah, there it is there it is David Knopp Posted this for me why

57:27

Biblical interpretation has no authority on the matter of sexual orientation first scream

57:32

This is on YouTube The Bible can no longer be used to assert homosexuality as sin such authority has been rendered null and void

57:40

By an understanding of the immense and immoral harm such teaching has caused to countless innocent people

57:46

Especially LGBT youth and families and listen to what's listen to the comment underneath it

57:53

Religion -derived Derogation toward lesbian gay bisexual and transgender people is a cancer within church teaching

58:00

But it's insidious spread has infected all of society It's now up to us as a society both religious and non -religious and both inside the church and from outside its walls to end the disease and the misery it has spread and there was a

58:15

Screen because there's no speech in it. It's all it's all text And there was a screen later on that in essence said

58:24

Society has determined that this must end That that should cause all of us pause

58:35

Because the reality is the the secular left doesn't care about Homosexuals doesn't care a whit

58:44

They can they they don't care if their life expectancy is much shorter they don't care

58:51

This is a tool nothing more than a tool It's a means of getting people to think that there is this cause we much must fight for and The cause is to silence the gospel and that's what this is all about.

59:06

And so I Understand why there is an appropriate concern

59:13

And if you're fearful about the results Well, you're gonna have to really trust in the

59:20

Lord in the future we all are every one of us myself included No question about it.

59:26

Thanks. Listen to the dividing line today. Sorry Victor I'm gonna have to watch there's a little there's a little battery up in the corner of When it's red and it's blinking bad bad stuff bad stuff maybe

59:39

Maybe that's just a New Jersey thing. But what well,

59:49

I guess since you've now said to do so in Okay, let's talk to Tim.

59:56

Hi Tim. Hi James. How you doing? I'm good So appreciate your ministry and all the work you're doing especially amongst the

01:00:03

Muslims. Hey, I just had a comment maybe a question Regarding last

01:00:09

Thursday's dividing line where you examined Ken Gentry's second Timothy three hermeneutic and I was talking to one of them.

01:00:19

I'm a pastor out here in Syracuse along with the two other men and we were talking and We're all pretty much post -millennial, although not as radical as some but we all agreed that the second

01:00:34

Timothy three situation would be in continuance throughout the church age although Part of part of the cyclical

01:00:44

Aspect, you know, we do go through times where it's tougher to be a Christian some places than others and you know nations rise and fall and One of the things

01:00:53

I was thinking I was I was listening to the podcast as I was I'm the running guy You said go oil up your bike for it, you know, probably true.

01:01:01

My knees are starting to give out Hey, hey, I just started I just started running it

01:01:07

To so I had 7k this morning and yeah, but I got to be careful

01:01:12

Oh me too, and I'm out in the woods. So I got to watch for roots I'm like on a mission to destroy my shins and I'm winning.

01:01:21

I don't like that. But anyway regarding that the passage and we were also thinking, you know when when

01:01:29

I hear you speak about the application of God's law to society and pretty much on top of You know the

01:01:37

Hobby Lobby case the insanity of gay mirage and all of that stuff To to our hearing you don't sound like your average on millennialist, especially those that would be coming from say

01:01:49

Westminster West and that kind of thing. Well, there's a difference in from my perspective You know,

01:01:56

I have obviously a very strong views of God's law and You know,

01:02:02

I'm sure there would be people who would identify me as a theonomist except I'm a Baptist Right means that I don't believe if if if it was the if it was the proper intention to try to apply

01:02:18

The entirety and this is one of the issues is what you know When we're talking about the law what elements of the law all those things are very very important and and even

01:02:28

Bonson said that there is still much more work to be done on that, but but obviously as a Baptist I Have have great fear looking at my own history of what happens when?

01:02:39

The state takes up the sword based upon theology And I see nothing in Scripture that would provide guidance

01:02:50

To the state in the application of theology That would not end up causing the church in the state to end up merging and there's where the problem is

01:03:01

I don't see a church state or state church in the New Testament and Especially coming from my perspective

01:03:09

Maybe but make what makes me even more weird is since I'm dealing with Islam and Islam never had an axe 15

01:03:15

Right, and therefore you have that intimate connection between the state and and and religion in Islam I see that what freed the gospel to go around the world and Allows it to transcend every cultural barrier even to this day

01:03:34

Is the fact that we don't have that? Baggage to carry with it that you have to have a certain kind of cultural norm and standard

01:03:43

That is that is brought along now. Maybe that becomes the lens through which you look at the law and go Okay, this is what does translate across those boundaries and what does not it has to be a gospel

01:03:54

Lens, I I don't know. I'm not I'm not thinking about ever writing a book on these subjects, but I was it at I believe is maybe three or four months ago

01:04:03

I may be longer than that But somebody had called in about theonomy and about the application of the law how much of the law and and your comment was yeah

01:04:11

There's a lot of work should be done on this Understandably, so I just taught a series at our

01:04:19

Church at Trinity on Can a true Christian not grown holiness and we started talking about the application of the law the principles and I used your you know parapet being

01:04:28

Principally like a fence around your swimming pool, you know using the principles therein

01:04:35

Well, I'm doing that's what I'm doing That's what I'll be doing Sunday at PR BC because I'm I'm preaching on Sunday and we'll

01:04:43

We'll be out of Deuteronomy and back into Leviticus and we're gonna be doing all that looking at the law what its relevance is

01:04:50

How to have a consistent exegesis of it and I don't claim to have all the answers there's all sorts of tough questions, but I guess

01:04:57

I Guess why I may be weird is because I am coming at this not only as a pastor in a church

01:05:05

But as an apologist that has to deal with this and one of the things that does

01:05:10

I'll be honest with you Bother me about some of the conversations I see going on on the net right now is

01:05:17

It would seem to me that it would be helpful if if a balance was struck in light of People being out on the front lines dealing with Islam dealing with atheism

01:05:31

Dealing with the cults and isms that really helps. I think to Keep us from shooting our wounded and and getting too angry

01:05:43

Internally, I'm seeing divisions that don't need to be there That kind of stuff and people go well, how come you know in your church you can have all three different perspectives

01:05:53

I just can't see how that could happen. Well, if you if you're focused upon those big issues

01:06:00

Worldwide, then you're gonna allow for a little more room amongst the brethren within the fellowship

01:06:06

I think because you're gonna be so appreciative of having people believe in justification by faith in the Trinity You're not gonna be pulling guns real quick to shoot somebody over eschatology, right?

01:06:16

But but when you get so focused upon that then it's real easy to Lose sight of the other stuff.

01:06:22

So are you are you familiar with that? Ian Murray's the Puritan hope? Yes. Yeah Yeah, I as a

01:06:29

Baptist post -millennialist. I so appreciated that that work kind of a big -picture overview

01:06:35

What were these guys thinking? And yeah, it's I mean, I'm in the CREC I'm also a

01:06:41

Baptist. I'm one of the few that's why you said Mirage instead of There's a little bit of Dougie in this guy

01:06:54

Doug's a friend. I mean, I've known him a little while now, but any anyway that being said

01:07:00

That I thought that perspective was good and I really wish that I'm with you

01:07:05

There's some of the theonomy discussions really get bogged down. I still hear you saying

01:07:11

To the civil magistrate by what standard do you pass a law? Well, I've also say the civil magistrate you will be judged by that law when you stand before God That's right.

01:07:21

And that's that's I guess for some people that makes me a theonomist on some level, but obviously

01:07:26

I draw the line at What does the New Testament present to us?

01:07:32

And when someone says well, we need to we need to bring about this situation I go would scripture equip us to do that, right?

01:07:39

And I if it doesn't then I go doesn't seem to me that that's what God intended because it seems to me he gave us a

01:07:46

New Testament what we are going to need for the church age and if it goes beyond that then

01:07:52

That's an issue. Yeah, it's kind of like there's not a New Testament book of Leviticus to tell us exactly how to do the call of Worship, but there is that there's that lovely

01:08:02

Romans 13 first Peter to Maintain justice you guys and we're so far from that right now.

01:08:09

It's insane You know now we have we're calling evil good and good evil. Well, we can't even get that, right?

01:08:16

Well, certainly our society is that when you say we I'm hoping I'm not talking about the church. Yeah. Yeah, right

01:08:21

We Americans. Yes. Yes. I do like that terminology though, by the way the mirage

01:08:28

Oh, yeah, I think that's that might be that might be a you know I don't

01:08:33

I don't like the natural marriage thing, you know, yeah, you know, I get it, you know

01:08:40

Divine marriage Created marriage stuff like that, but mirage mirage does a good job

01:08:46

Of course, someone's gonna get chucked in the pokey for it before long. Yeah, what what's a mirage something? That's not really there.

01:08:51

It's a well I posted in channel yesterday What was

01:08:58

I can't I don't have a browser up well, yeah, actually I do What was the line yesterday?

01:09:05

What was Doug's line yesterday? Where would I? find that because There okay.

01:09:12

Here it is It was the something about a C major.

01:09:18

Oh, yeah American C major. There it is. Okay. There it is. Here it is that horrible

01:09:23

New Yorker cover. Yeah here Yeah, here it is 20 years ago. Same -sex mirage was unthinkable

01:09:29

Now you're an enemy of all mankind If you call the mirage for what it is a shimmer in the air over the desert sands instead of what everyone is demanding

01:09:38

You call it which is something that rhymes with carriage, but it also rhymes with disparage which brings me to my theme

01:09:44

Okay, look we just recently posted my debate with Doug obviously I've got right

01:09:49

I've got issues, but there is no one who is a greater wordsmith right now than Doug Wilson I mean, it's just like Yeah, I'm gonna have to steal that one, too

01:09:58

And I normally drop him a line when I decide to just absolutely grossly steal something though No one drops me any lines for my sayings, which are you have you heard from Al Mohler recently?

01:10:07

Oh, I know I'm feeling a little disrespected here, but it's all right. I'll live with it All right, anyway, well very good.

01:10:15

Thanks for taking my call and again man just So appreciate your work. We've we've supported in the past.

01:10:21

We want to continue to do so as a church well Thank you, Tim. I really appreciate that you bet I got less All right, well

01:10:29

Tim can thank rich for that one because I was gonna. Thanks for listening, and he's like Not starting that music.

01:10:37

That's like well Let's get one more in You start early anyways why not so fine?

01:10:46

Okay, thanks for listening folks. We'll be back on Thursday here on the dividing line Lord willin. See you then