EP 46 – IS FEMINISM COMING TO A CHURCH NEAR YOU?

Look at these liberal churches with female leadership. They're dead. There's an old saying, right?

How do you know you're a leader? There's people behind you. And there's these churches with empty pews because there's a female pastor or, let me say this, this is the more controversial piece, effeminate men leading the church, and there's empty pews.

And welcome to Tearin' Down High Places.

This is Average Joe coming to you remotely, bringing you three pastors today,

Tim, Jeff, and Seth. Welcome, guys. Hey, Joe. Hey, Joe.

Glad to be here, as always. Awesome. Pastor Jeff. Greetings.

All right. The topic is feminism and feminism in the church.

And like you said, Joe might be kind of in and out here, but we'll take it from here.

So what do you think, Seth? Do you like feminism in the church? No, I don't like feminism in the church.

And maybe we can go back to the very beginning and see where does it come from?

And of course, Genesis 3, so many of our problems, in fact, all of our problems, go back to Genesis chapter 3 and verse 16.

This is describing the curse. Adam and Eve fell into sin, and this is the curse that God brings down.

And He says, I will surely multiply your pain and childbearing. In pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you. So there is this kind of this seesaw battle that takes place.

And the way God designs it, of course, is that men are the head of the household. Men are created to lead.

But because of man's sinful nature, there's actually two things that take place. Men can be too passive.

That is one of the main sins, I think, that men commit. And then secondly, women do not submit to the leadership of their husbands or even submit to men generally in society, male leadership in the church.

There is this propensity to rebel against that. So it really starts at the very beginning of time.

Do you guys have thoughts about that? I would say like when you go back to the created order, hierarchy or leadership of one over another is not an ugly thing.

In God's design, the ultimate hierarchy is God over everything that's created.

And then within the created order, there's hierarchy as well that man is to have dominion over the beasts of the field.

So then there's a difference there, and those differences are good. Now between men and women, both men and women are made in the image of God and have dominion over the earth.

But even within that relationship, husband and wife, they're supposed to be headship and submission.

So I think even in the picture of how Eve was made from Adam's rib, there's a picture there that she is to be a support to him, near to his heart, that he is to be a protector with his arm over her, as a protector to her, provider for her.

And this arrangement that God has made is his beautiful design. So when you said feminism,

Seth, I think we have to define that. What is feminism? I would say it is the encouraging of women to take on more masculine roles.

It's not a celebration of femininity, because femininity as God designed it is beautiful.

And it's the way God arranged the world to be, that men would be masculine, women would be feminine.

But feminism is encouraging women to do the more masculine things of life.

So where do you guys see women doing things that only a man should do?

How about preaching in the pulpit? That's one thing that women should not exercise, that kind of spiritual authority over a man.

And I think I heard John MacArthur say this. He thinks it's the first judgment on a church when he sees a woman in the pulpit.

And I think I kind of agree with him, that it is a judgment from God when a woman rises to the power and rises to that leadership position.

And I think a church should be very nervous and understand that they could be under the judgment of God when a woman is their leader.

So leadership is implied in this idea of headship. The husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church.

To be head implies some kind of authority, some kind of taking the lead, whereas the woman then would be following the lead of the husband.

One of the Scriptures that's very clear about that is 1 Corinthians 14. I think it's verses 33 to 35, somewhere in there.

Paul will actually say that a woman should be silent in the church.

And if she has questions, she should ask her husband at home. But this is how God governs the church.

Now there's a lot of discussion that needs to be had about what that looks like. So maybe we can go there. What does it mean to be silent in the church?

Tim brought up one example that's very obvious, and that's the authoritative proclamation of God's Word, preaching.

But what about other things in church? Can a woman never speak once she's in a church building?

Is that what it means in the church? Or how do you parse that out, Seth? Yeah, that's a great question.

Yeah, I think the application is where you're going to have maybe some disagreement on this. But yeah, definitely preaching.

A woman should never preach from the pulpit. Of course, that comes from 1 Timothy 2 as well, where that very controversial passage where Paul is saying that God created

Adam first and then Eve. And it is a man's responsibility to preach, and not only preach in the church, but also to teach in the church.

I think whenever there's a mixed group of people, it is the responsibility of men to teach, and specifically the elders or pastors to preach and teach.

I would say the public reading of Scripture is also a place. I think that's a man's responsibility to do the public reading of Scripture, because that's an authoritative thing that God has created men to do.

Wow, can I pause you there for a second? It's so funny because Tim and I, and we've discussed this amongst our elders a little bit, is the public reading of Scripture for men only?

And the reason I actually came to that same conclusion from 1 Timothy 4, and I actually had it open to it right now before you said that.

So the Lord is leading us here. See, we're gonna make it into a charismatic one day. He's leading us, and He said in 1

Timothy 4, verse 13, Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

Amen. The NAS and I think other versions, I'm not sure which versions actually, say to the preaching and to the teaching.

But because public reading of Scripture is grouped with preaching and teaching, it's communicating,

I think, that when it's done in the assembly, in the public assembly of the church, it should be read with an authority.

Like thus says the Lord. When you read it, even how you read the Scripture should communicate, this is the

Word of the Lord. It carries the authority of God. And so only men should be exerting that kind of authority by the public reading of Scripture.

So that's my view on that. Tim, have you thought through that a little bit? Yeah, yeah, I agree with you guys.

I also think it could go even a little bit larger. We're a congregational church.

And I really think that when you come to a congregational meeting and you're with your wife,

I think that when there's over 100 people there, it's the assembly gathering, and say the board or the pastor presents something,

I think if someone wants to make an opinion, I think the man in the household should be the voice and the one making decisions.

Or if they disagree with the pastor, I don't think women should really be talking much in those.

And I think they should keep silent when in doubt in situations like that as well.

What are your thoughts on that, Seth? I don't know if you're a congregational church, but we've had congregational meetings, and I'm a little skeptical of a lot of women voicing things and the emotion in the room and things go the wrong way sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that the way God made men and women, women are more emotional, right?

That's just the way God made women, and it's not a bad thing necessarily, but it's not usually good for leadership because to be a strong, effective leader, you need to be calm, right?

You need to be able to contain your emotions. There may be a time to show your emotions, but I think largely speaking, we need to be calm as we lead.

So yeah, your point of business meetings, because we have those meetings too, and sometimes people can voice their opinion.

But you do see Paul's wisdom in that, and I haven't taken a stand on that.

Like I tell my church, only men can speak in these meetings. I've never done that. But I think this is where you need the husband to be involved.

So if a husband and wife are there, the best case scenario is if the husband talks on behalf of his wife or the husband talks on behalf of his children or whatever situation may arise.

Because I think that follows the biblical example the closest if we're looking at 1

Corinthians 14, like Jeff mentioned earlier. Sorry, Jeff.

I was going to say even like an opinion or a question, they should be learning that at home first.

And then when they come to church, I agree. I think that the husband should be the spokesperson. That's just what I'm thinking.

We're not implementing that or saying like this is hardcore right now. But that's just my thoughts on feminism and maybe a little of that creeping into the church and then eventually that growing into something bigger is more like what

I would be concerned about. Yeah, and what you guys are saying sounds so countercultural.

I mean, to say that women are more emotional, it sounds to women as demeaning of their opinions.

Oh, they just think with their hearts. They don't know how to reason well. Here's the issue.

Nobody would dispute that men are by and large more physically muscular.

Right? It's clear and apparent. But the problem with emotions is it can't be tested or analyzed quite so objectively.

So it's easier to object to something like that. But every person listening to this kind of knows that that's true, that women tend to be more emotional.

It doesn't mean that you don't have some women who are less emotional than most men or some men who are highly emotional, in which case, like when we were playing basketball and a guy just couldn't control his emotions on the court, he blames his teammates.

I remember this one kid. I won't mention his name because maybe he'll watch our podcast one day. But he would lift the layup.

He would go to the sand next to the court and start throwing it in the air. He was throwing a hissy fit.

And we would just call that girling. Girling. Quick girling. You're acting like a girl.

You're so emotional. Just man up and don't be so emotional. Now, that's not demeaning.

Because if you think about a man's physical muscles, right? Muscles are given for a purpose.

It's because the men should be in the front of the battle. And most women would say, and the moms will say,

I don't want my daughter to go fight in Iraq. If one of our kids has to go, I want it to be my son.

Not my daughter. Right? We all agree. This is how God built us. We can watch movies that are more built towards war with a little bit of like, ah, you know,

I want to fight. Because God has built into man the need to fight when evil presents itself.

It's part of our fiber of our very being. Now, emotions. I want us to think differently about this.

Because emotions are a muscle. Emotions are a good, God -given muscle.

So a woman has greater, stronger emotional muscles to love her children and to love her husband and to be compassionate and respond to certain needs in the church.

She's been made emotional in a good way. Celebrate that. That makes her stronger in some areas than men are.

Moms are better moms at being moms than dads could ever be. Two dads raising a kid is not a good design.

It's not God's design. It's destructive. So all I'm trying to say is, if we think about it more differently,

God's beautiful design for femininity is to be celebrated. But if you encourage a woman to take the lead, her emotions weren't built for the leadership role of the church.

You're putting her in a man's role. And the way God has actually wired her and made her to be, you're setting her up to fail.

So any church, any denomination that has ordained women has fully descended into liberalism within a course of one generation.

Every example, the Methodists, the PCUSA, the Episcopalians, Anglicans, you name it.

The first step was putting women in that leadership position because they're not going to fight against the evils that come into the world, into the church.

So if their daughter comes out as gay, they're going to empathize more and emotionally respond and actually change their theology to adapt to that.

Whereas a man could more objectively handle the word of God and apply it even in an emotional situation like a family member.

That's right. So God has built male leadership for a reason. It's not just willy -nilly.

He commanded men will lead, women will follow. It's also built into the very DNA of masculinity and femininity.

And it's a good thing. Yeah, I heard a pastor, just as birds have wings and fish have fins, so men are created to lead.

It's innate to who we are. We are created to lead. And if we don't lead, we're actually not being masculine.

We're not being a man as God created us to be. Now, some people will lead in more places than others, but at some level, the husband is at least supposed to lead his wife and he's at least supposed to lead his children.

So that raises the question of should a woman ever be the president of the United States or a governor?

And I would say no. I mean, it's controversial to say that, but she doesn't have the physical, mental, emotional fortitude that a man has to be able to do that.

You know, my wife even made the comment the other day. She's like, you function on less sleep better than I do.

I'm like, well, yeah, I'm a man. You know, we're created to kind of just roll with the punches, right?

You just keep going. You know, 1 Peter 3, 7 says, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel.

Right? So scripture is acknowledging they're made to be weaker and it's not that they're inferior in any way, but that's just the way

God designed it and men are created to be in those difficult roles of leadership because they are difficult.

I mean, who wants to get chewed out? But if you're a leader, you will be chewed out at one time or another, right?

Who wants to lose sleep like we lose? Who wants to get arrows shot at us?

And that's our position as pastors. You're going to run into those things. I mean,

I had a guy say the F word to me a while back. You know, it's like, I'm like, okay, move on.

You know, you just got to be able to take it and just move on. It's a part of leadership and God created us to do it.

The reason we can handle it is because he created us to do it. So I think that's a good point. I think women get a little bit confused when they want that for themselves or want that for other women when it's just not a desirable place for a woman to be in.

So I think that does go back to the curse where, you know, their desires are a little mixed up.

But I talked to my wife and I don't know if it's in every single, maybe it is in every single woman and element of them wants to rebel and kind of be in control or be in the lead.

But a submissive, godly woman is going to rule over that sin of wanting to be in control and wanting to be the lead.

And then they're going to find comfort and peace in the position that God really wants them in. So I talked to my wife and she was saying that like,

I've come to the conclusion that I don't want that responsibility to be the leader. I don't want that.

You take that. It's a lot harder to have that responsibility, which is true. I think that men should have that responsibility, even in their family, at the church, wherever it may be.

Don't let your woman, even in that position as a man, you need to be able to see that and recognize that and help your wife come to the biblical thinking and reasoning and kind of convincing her, no, this is your position.

It isn't because you're less valuable, but this is the way God beautifully designed it. Beautifully said.

And that's biblical. Genesis 3 .16, when it talks about the curse, it says, her desire will be for her husband, but he will rule over her.

One says there's a desire. The other case is ontologically the way it is. So the desire is against nature or how things are.

But then the next chapter, which shows that this is what Genesis 3 .16 means, I think it's Genesis 4 .7,

sin is crouching at the door, its desire is for you. Same exact Hebrew words, but you must rule over it.

So just like Cain should have ruled over his passion, his anger and hatred towards Abel, instead he let that passion rule over him.

To say that a woman is under the curse means that that desire can rise up in her.

But in the spirit and by the washing of the water of the word, which is the responsibility of the husband,

Ephesians 5, she can rule over those desires. She can take them captive and make them obedient to Christ.

And so a godly woman won't look like a feminist, which is why our wives don't.

They are in that position where the Lord is helping them restrain. Whenever those creeping thoughts might ever come in, they can take them captive and make them obedient to Christ.

But now the men also have the same problem. So often women want to step up and lead because men don't.

So what is the curse against men in Genesis 3? It's the thorns in the thistles, the weariness of work can cause men to become lazy and passive.

And so they're not taking the lead. They're becoming passive and lazy. And they also can rule over that problem.

So we have to discipline ourselves to take dominion in areas of our lives that we might just kind of let go and be passive and weak.

So the problem is in both. It's just that it manifests differently, different temptations for each of the sexes.

And one of those major temptations for men is sexual. There's a stronger sexual temptation and proneness to fall into sexual sin in the case of men than women.

Not that women can't fall that way. They do, but the proportion is much higher with regard to men falling into those temptations.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So Jeff, you mentioned that being a female pastor is like a gateway to liberalism.

It's like the first step. And you have to stop it, right? Otherwise, it's going to keep going.

Where do you see... Where do you guys see this in the American Evangelical Church today?

Well, in Big Eva, females preaching like Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, even

Donald Trump acknowledges Paula White as some kind of spiritual advisor. He doesn't see these gender roles in the pastorate.

And so most of American society doesn't. So that's kind of like Big Eva. John MacArthur addressed

Beth Moore in two words, and I think it was prophetic in a sense, that he was able to say so much in two words.

When asked, what does Beth Moore need to hear? He said, go home. Many people thought, oh, he's so mean and so harsh.

But it says so much in two words. Just go focus on your home.

Go be a godly wife and mother and stop trying to lead American Evangelicalism because all

Beth Moore ever led towards was social justice and feminism. So John MacArthur, I think, spoke well in saying that, as harsh as it sounds.

So in the big picture, that's where it is. In even conservative denominations like the

Evangelical Free Church, there's a constant push for more and more leadership roles for women.

Even if they'll stop short and say, oh, we're still complementarian. It's just that a woman can do everything a man can do.

They can preach as long as it's under the umbrella of the elders. And the elders are the ones giving her the permission to have that pulpit.

She can do it. They're just looking for wiggle room to more and more push the envelope. And really, it's until there's enough conservatives pushed out that they can go all the way where this inevitably goes.

We have a pastor friend that Craig Chambers, he wrote an article on the

EFCA and social justice website about the egalitarianism in the free church.

And he went back and he quoted a statement from the 80s, which was really a strong statement about male headship in the ministry.

And the way that they've kind of wiggled around that in recent years is they've said a woman cannot be a senior pastor, but she can be an associate pastor.

So what you have in a movement like the free church is you have hundreds of female pastors who are actually in the movement doing what only a man should be doing, but they find a way around it saying, well, she's not the lead guy, but she is a pastor still.

In a lot of these places, they might use different terminology to say it's not a pastor. But when you boil it down, it's actually going against God's design.

It's actually going against Paul's clear instruction that a woman is not to exercise authority over a man.

So, very interesting to see that. What do you think, Tim? Do you think that there's more feminism in churches and in Christian homes than conservatives like to think that there is?

So probably everybody at Cornerstone Church would consider themselves a conservative, and I think we generally are, of course.

But do you think that there's more feminism influencing us because it's the water of the culture that we swim in?

Do you think there is elements of that in homes that people don't realize? 100%.

I think that there... I wouldn't be surprised if it was in 90 % of homes where...

Because I think men are just so quick. Even myself are probably guilty of it sometimes. You just got to keep it in check.

Men are so quick to be like, yes, dear, whatever you want. I just want to make you happy. But there's times where making her happy isn't the right decision for her soul.

And there's times where you just have to step in and say, no, honey, we're going to do it this way and you need to agree with this.

So I think there are times on a bigger scale, even in the church or at homes of some of our congregants where the woman is completely in charge and manipulates the man and the man has no clue.

The man comes to church and it seems like he's in charge but really it's the woman that's domineering and getting him to do things.

I'm not going to give an example of anything like that but you can think of a bunch probably of ways that happens.

I think it is in women and they need to keep that in check. So my answer is, yes, I think it's all over the place.

I think it's in church. I think it's at home. I think it's 100 % in the world. But it takes strong men to be able to recognize it and then realize, wait a minute,

I fell short in this area. We need to change it. Tim just attacked the sacrosanct doctrine of happy wife, happy life.

I always agree with that. What do you think about happy wife, happy life? I mean, happy spouse, happy house is better, right?

What do you think, Seth? Oh, yeah. That's really dangerous.

In one sense, we want our wife to be happy. If we're providing for her, if we're leading, and you mentioned earlier, a godly wife is going to want a husband who is leading, right?

And she takes great joy in that. But yeah, there are sinful tendencies that can easily come out in a marriage where it is just, let's make the wife happy.

Because again, she's more emotional, right? So there's going to be more anger.

If one person is going to be angry in the marriage, it's probably going to be more of the wife because that's more of a sin issue that's going to come up because the emotional piece, the sinful piece is going to be expressed with anger, right?

I've seen some men get very angry. So I think men also need to be aware of that.

But what I've seen is men have short little outbursts. And what I've seen when women, they can have their anger go and go and go, eventually needs to be restrained a little bit.

I could be wrong, but I think generally, you're right, Seth, women hold that grudge and can be angry longer because they have more of an emotional capacity to do so.

Yep, yep, that's right. And if a man has an anger problem, it's like it's an effeminate sin, really, that he needs to deal with.

And of course, we know that men struggle with anger too. But yeah, there's certain sins that affect men more and there's certain sins that affect women more.

So yeah, the happy wife, happy life thing. And there's a reason it's there. It's because so many homes do function that way.

We just got to keep mom happy. I just got to keep my wife happy. But that has to die in a household.

And any godly woman is going to say, yeah, I don't want our household to be like that. I don't.

So the key here is, my challenge to any young man listening to this, marry the right wife.

Because you will save yourself of so much trouble. One of the great keys to marriage is just marrying the right person.

And I'm very blessed. And I can tell you guys both married the right woman.

Where, yeah, you're going to deal with sin issues, of course. I mean, that's to be expected. But there's a growth that happens over time.

And there is a desire. We actually want to live out the Word of God. We actually want the husband to rule the household.

The goal isn't just to make the mom happy. The goal is to make God happy. Right? A proper functioning household.

Right. Yeah. I like that. Happy wife, happy life means appeasement. The way people use it.

Just keep her happy, meaning appease anything that's being argued for. But there is a verse in 1

Timothy that's directly applying to men with regard to anger. Because it says,

I tell men to lift up holy hands without anger or disputing.

So the tendency there is for guys sometimes to become confrontational with, I think, usually with other guys.

Competing for some work thing or something in life or sports. And the tendency, that would mean lifting up hands as in putting your dukes up.

But instead what you're to do is lift up holy hands in prayer. Opening your hands to God in prayer.

So there is a tendency in men towards anger in the functions that God has placed us.

We're competitive, right? Yes. We want to win. And if we lose, we get angry.

Guys have one of the deepest needs that men have is for significance. That's why the command to women is respect.

It goes hand in hand with having that need to be significant to have accomplished and to have taken dominion of something in the world.

Whether it's growing the church or whether it's building your business or raising a family.

Whatever it is that God... You sense that you've accomplished the purpose for which you were made.

Significance. And with the woman, it's acceptance. It's to be loved. So the corresponding command there is husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church.

So the two competing... It's a love and respect thing. There's a book called Love and Respect that makes this connection.

So as we pursue and we have those deep needs, whenever those things are frustrated, there is a tendency towards anger whether it's in a man or in a woman.

So I'm not sure anger itself is a more feminine emotion than it is masculine.

Either one is prone to it, but in different things. There are different triggers generally. And I think Seth's... Seth, your screenshot has frozen.

So I'm not sure if you can still hear us or not. Yeah, I'm here with you. A lot of people would say men and women are equal in value but not in roles.

And I would say that's probably true. But if you're a strong man and you're living under God, I think you're going to value your wife more than your own self and you're going to value women more than men.

And men should be looking to protect women and see them as treasures and see them as very valuable.

I think God even recognizes that women are very, very valuable especially excellent women in the Bible, excellent wives.

So I think that there is maybe even a higher value on women. Yeah, and while we're speaking to feminism, that's the issue today, shouldn't we say a word about men who become domineering?

We probably should. Men shouldn't be domineering as like,

I'm in control. I'm the man. Submit to me. Like when you have to get to that point you've kind of just lost it all

I would say and lost the respect that you should be getting. A man should command respect not demand it.

By demanding it by the force of his character by being so consistent, such a good provider, protector and leading in the right direction.

Making good decisions with the household money. If he's just squandering money on lottery tickets and wasting his time on video games and everything and then he demands for her to submit to him he hasn't commanded respect.

He's just demanding it. I like that. I never heard that before, Jeff. Command respect, don't demand.

I like that. That could be on a t -shirt maybe. Yeah, Proverbs says let another praise you.

Like you guys are saying that men desire to be respected but we can't force it.

We actually have to live it out and then if someone praises you if they respect you for something it feels good to hear that praise and then give glory to God.

I guess that's the way we should approach it. Not, you must respect me.

It's like, well, you're not worth respecting right now. Yeah. But she is still commanded to respect him.

That's the hard part and that's why for a woman choosing a husband that choice to marry that is an incredible decision to submit oneself to the leadership of another because it's ontological.

It's in the pudding. It's not just, well, as long as he's leading me well. No, you're submitting, you're making him your head and until divorce or death that's just the case as it is.

And I believe even in arranged marriages the woman should have a choice in who they're marrying because even in the

Bible when Rebecca's parents were trying to arrange a marriage they went and asked her like, let's go ask her and see what she thinks before the parent just said yeah, take her.

So I think that men should carefully choose and find a wife and then a wife should carefully decide whether they say yes or no.

And men it's interesting the way God set it up too is that of course when

God sets something up it works, right? So women and men will follow a man.

They will follow a good leader. Women and men and children. So that's what His design for the local church.

If you have a strong leader the women, the men, and the children will follow that leader or leaders of that church.

And of course it goes in businesses too and so on and so forth. But look at these liberal churches with female leadership they're dead.

There's an old saying, right? How do you know you're a leader? There's people behind you. And there's these churches with empty pews because there's a female pastor or let me say this is the more controversial piece effeminate men leading the church.

And there's empty pews where nobody wants to follow. I think that's true.

And I think that's a great place to sign off. Any final words? Let's have

Seth recap or say anything that he wants to say and then we'll do our motto.

Yeah, so everything God created is good. And one of the things He created was for men to be men and for women to be women.

But of course with the fall that happened in Genesis 3 men tend to be passive women tend to be more aggressive and they want that leadership role.

And that's why we find so many of the problems we find ourselves in. And of course this isn't just for the church but we're pastors, we're talking about the church.

For the church to succeed men need to lead. We need strong pastors and elders and when that happens the people will follow and God will be glorified and you'll have a strong church and we'll have strong homes and we'll have a strong society when all of this takes place the way

God designed it. Amen. So if you see a woman or a feminine man in a high leadership authority tear it down, right?

And if you see a man in a submission cowering role try to help that brother up, right?

And then the real one is if you see a brother down pick him up, if you see a high place tear it down.

We just tore feminism to the ground. Be careful because if not feminism is coming to a church near you if it's not already there.