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April 1, 2020
DAVE CORSON, Administrative Law Judge & ordained minister, who will address:
“VOLUNTARY vs MANDATORY RESTRICTIONS on PUBLIC GATHERINGS (& Reflections Upon Hebrews 10:25)”
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon.
Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron Sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all Happy April Fool's Day on this first day of April 2020.
And although this is April Fool's Day We are going to be discussing a serious matter. Although however, it will certainly contain some laughter and humor in it because my friend Dave Corson That I've known for many years has a Incredibly good sense of humor and he and I have had some of the loudest and longest laughs that I've ever experienced together.
He is believe it or not after that saying that he's an administrative law judge and an ordained minister. And today we are going to address voluntary versus mandatory restrictions on public gatherings and Reflections on Hebrews chapter 10 verse 25 and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after years of absence from iron sharpens iron radio Dave Corson.
How's it go there Chris? I'm as I'm sorry. What'd you say? How's it going there Chris? Could you hear me? Okay. Oh, yeah.
I hear you fine.
I'm surprised you didn't change your introduction though. A show of theologians pastors and then people like Corson.
Now I think the last time you were on my show you were on The pastors roundtable perhaps on the oh, yeah on the old iron sharpens iron program when it was broadcasting out of WNYG and.
WGBB beautiful downtown, Babylon, right? That's right. Sure. That's right. Yeah, Babylon. Oh the Carlisle. Yeah, so you're moving up in the world.
Well, I don't know if the Babylonian listeners would agree with that. But I.
Do love Carlisle on happier audience. I'm sorry. I.
Do love Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It is my new home and and I am Adjusting very well here. And before we go into your a little bit of a description on your work as an administrative law judge in New York City.
You are a former stand-up comic and I'd like for you to share with our listeners some of that background and I know that you were actually also a part of a Comedic TV broadcast so if you could share with our listeners more about that.
Yes, I actually when he said that he was he was saying he had this saying, you know. The advent of broadcast television everyone's going to be famous for for 15 minutes. I think Andy Warhol will be rolling over to social media and YouTube.
Everyone now is famous and famous for a lot longer now. Well, I think that's the least of Andy Warhol's.
But yeah, I did have 15 minutes of fame or not really quite we traveled around the country. We appeared in colleges clubs and this is at the the the peak of entertainment history. Of course and then so clubs are trying to figure out what do we do now to keep keep the businesses going?
So all of a sudden everybody had a comedy club. Just go turn to the comedy club. My friend John Truton and I we actually met in college. We've done shows together college. We started traveling around and yeah, we actually got invited to appear on a show called comedy tonight, which was on.
This is just when the Fox Network.
Yeah, and they were trying to do a competition or yeah, this was Saturday night live.
Exactly. And so my partner and I we appeared on comedy tonight at the pleasure of actually.
I'm glad it was before he passed.
Wake up.
And then you also became an ordained minister.
That's it. And I can look back at all those points in my life and those quote-unquote career changes and so it's all the hand of God Transforming my heart my will over him. I came to know the Lord at a very young age.
It was one of the things that I remember pastor was preaching You know from Hebrews and talking about Moses Hebrews 11 there and saying, you know Moses after God and he. I don't remember any Of his other sermons, but I remember I'm talking about thing there.
So the gospel for good Bible teacher and I don't regret but gracious and loving and well.
I am glad to know you as a friend and I am glad to know you as a brother in Christ and also Glad to have as a friend your dear lovely wife Jill. As a friend and as a sister in Christ and in fact I can say Without exaggeration one of my favorite memories of all time of mine of my entire life Was when I was making a very good income For WMC a radio Salem media and I treated you Jill Dan and Cindy, but if you go another yeah, too.
A.
Broadway show the producers the producers and also to a really phenomenal Russian restaurant in Manhattan called Firebird. It was my wife my late wife Julie's favorite restaurant and so she and I joined you and Jill and Dan and Cindy in Manhattan that evening and what a precious Memory that is and I in fact, it was the first time that I saw the intensity of your explosive laughter to the extent that I witnessed it at the producers and and You are you are cracking up at that that plate especially certain parts of it and it was funny because I Would also laugh and I am I am known for a loud laugh and my wife is Jabbing me in the ribs with her elbow trying to get me to Laugh more quietly and I'm like, are you kidding me?
This is a comedy play what are you asking me to stop laughing for and I'm like look at him and I remember pointing at you and You were you were ready to have a coronary arrest. You were laughing so hard, I think.
But what a great memory. So tell us Exactly what it is that an administrative law judge does. What are your responsibilities?
It's an administrative law judge overseas cases involving administrative law. What are those cases. A brief civics lesson when Congress or state legislator when they? establish laws and establish government agencies.
Though you give those government agencies once again rule give them the how should I say rules and regulations? That's administrative law. These are the rules and the regulations established by administrative agencies.
Established by our Congress's and our legislators is hey, we have all these social issues. Let's start a new government agency and have that government agency address that problem and then as a practical matter.
You know, it's one thing to have these policies. It's one thing to have all these legislations. But then now you actually put it into effect. Well, then you do need certain rate of agencies. Then that would then come up with rules and regulations and then once again every time you have a law.
You need someone to interpret those laws and so that's what an administrative law judge tools and regulations can handle. And the well, I'm glad to have you on because perhaps.
You can help separate Fact from fiction when it comes to some of the things Involving restrictions on public gatherings the thing that has been very confusing about this whole thing Is that the way that the media and politicians Say things including our president can be either confusing or fuzzy or even misleading because when they make statements You don't know if this is a strong suggestion or is it a law-binding Illegally binding Mandatory restriction that's being placed upon us.
And in fact, I had a friend Just moments before the show started When I told him I was doing some errands and he goes, oh, didn't you hear that? Pennsylvania's on lockdown as of last night at 8 o 'clock.
We're on lockdown. And I said, what does that exactly mean? There are. I'm doing the same thing. I did last week I am going to stores that are open to to get errands and run errands and and get food and beverages and I you know the Mailman came today and I got coffee today from A takeout place.
I mean, what do you mean? We're on lockdown. I mean that kind of thing. He had like this panic in his voice and he's not leaving the house because we're on lockdown.
So.
We're gonna get to some of the specifics about those kinds of things but The catalyst to have you having you on the program today? It involves To a degree or put to a large degree Hebrews chapter 10 verse 25 and That is a classic Passage from the scriptures that most of us are very familiar with it says that We are not To be giving up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day approaching.
And of course that my actual Favorite translation is the New American Standard Bible and I'm gonna look that up in that In that version because that one that I read is from the NIV and I'm not particularly fond of the NIV.
And while I'm looking that up folks our email address if you'd like to join us on the air It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And please as always give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and In the NASB not forsaking our own assembling together as it is the habit of some.
But encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near. What was it that you were? Advising recommending and this is while you were wearing primarily Your minister cap your order Ordained minister cap.
All right. What were you advising that caused a bit of controversy even among? Some of your very close dear longtime friends and Brethren in Christ even of the same theological persuasion.
Can I pray first before I answer address some of these things answer you and address you said you sound like you're getting ready for.
An execution or something. But by the way, feel free folks to To send in questions, even if you disagree with Dave because he's used to being heckled being a former comedian.
More so from being a lawyer.
Well, that'll be. You used to being hated rather than everyone loves. Quoting Henry the sixth to me.
First thing we do is let's kill all the lawyers.
I.
Always pray before the show when we're off the air, but go ahead pray.
The reason I want to is because as one dear brother is even related to me. These are difficult times the difficult decisions and I think this is at the heart having the gracious father God your name is to be exalted above all their God your grace.
You'd be gracious and about not only spreading sanctifying work in their lives facing your mercy Lord. Please give me your God to search me out and in my heart on my way and or may I be Receptive once again, I lift up brother here today.
What's important here today is not who's right or wrong. What's it means that takes place will be the interior will help us to know your will and I was to carry out your will. We're God we ask these things not because anything we've done or deserved or will amen.
Well.
As we were saying you sent out an email and Many of your friends very close friends even fellow brethren from the same church were responding and there was some reasonably mild interaction with disagreement.
And it also shows you that The body of Christ when it comes to very important things that have global magnitude to them.
And.
Very often we disagree with each other even if we're in the same even if we're in the same theological camp, right?
Exactly. So what I've been what I've been trying to communicate in my email to Mike small circle of influence, whatever that may be. Once again, we've Hardly attempt for these correspondence and I've already sought the forgiven lovingly and correct wiser from the correspondence primarily to elders.
You know, but so not to call once again to because I don't know who's in draw. Not me calling anyone out or have to make for your and also to I want a strong They have your soul. You need to follow after them.
Of course it is not my intention to create and coming from is basically this and by the way to it was not at the Statement or because what I was hearing from so many. Too many of them what I found we first and foremost Loving God.
Chris, if I could just read from a news article because once again, this issue is becoming more pressing. And I want to be very careful by the name of Edmund Brown County and near Asian of a local Quote and I want to be very clear here.
This is what the news journalist is Andrew Warren Howard Brown is the I'd remind the good pastor of Mark 12. There's no more important commandment than to love my neighbor as I felt he said Loving your neighbors is jeopardizing their health by loving your neighbors protecting them not jeopardizing their health.
But concern to me is once again, is that the attitude of the church as well? Because that verse of the scripture of Mark chapter regarding this particular matter the full car. Let me read it for you starting at verse 29.
Jesus answered them saying the first of all the command. The first of all the commandments is hero Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one context of the first commandment the greatest commandment of loving the Lord our God with all our heart soul mind and strength to the similar event and When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees they gathered together then one of them a lawyer Him saying teacher what is but to the governing authorities over us?
But first and foremost with the love the Lord our God with all of us has become problematic now all these other national leaders. You know, I'm not saying they haven't considered it, but it's not in there to do.
I'm not looking I'm not more experience. But no, I am raising the conscience. This is all about our life is about God. Loving our neighbors. Amen. I do agree with that and of course.
Obeying God is a part of giving him praise honor and glory and Obeying him often involves how we do treat our neighbors and so right. Yeah, obviously. Obviously that is included in the Decalogue. How we treat our neighbors and so.
The thing that is clear to me though that although I. And many people if not most With whom I agree especially on The specific text I read earlier from Hebrews chapter 10. In fact, let us let me read More of the context of that.
I'm gonna go back to Verse 23. Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering. For he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds.
Not forsaking our own assembling together as it is the habit of some. But encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near now the consensus that I've heard from the people.
Highly revere and know very well. Not not to say that I don't highly revere you or know you very well. But I'm saying most of most of the pastors that I know and theologians would say. That if the elders that God has ordained over a church Consider it best for not only the safety of the congregation but the of the surrounding community.
That they would for a time a season suspend public gatherings. That the individuals in the congregation Obeying that and submitting to that are not in sin. Because they are following what they believe to be the wise judgment of their elders.
And they are submitting to their elders as the the Bible's the Bible commands now. Obviously, we're not to submit to our elders if they're telling us the sin.
But no, right, but I wouldn't take that position either. That's I'm saying I'm not calling these elders sinful in any way. Right, and I recognize there can be rarely remember from my. And we're going to go to our first break right now.
If you have a question for Dave Corson, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris AR n Z n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence.
If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own pastor over this issue or you disagree With your congregation.
Or perhaps you're even a pastor and you disagree with your fellow elders the majority of your congregation your denomination things like that would definitely lend themselves to want to. Wanting to remain anonymous, but if it's a general question Please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dave Corson and more on this vital issue. I'm sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air. Like the Historical Bible Society the Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books manuscripts and Bibles of historical significance.
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Forward slash podcast. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson if you just tuned us in today. Our guest for the full two hours is a dear friend of mine for many years. Going back decades actually. David Corson.
Dave is an administrative law judge and ordained minister and we are addressing voluntary versus mandatory restrictions on public gatherings and Reflections upon Hebrews chapter 10 verse 25. Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.
Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And Before I go any further with my own questions I do have some listener questions that I will begin the show with here. We have Michael in Princeton, New Jersey. Who says He has.
First of all, he has a quote from George Burns. Since you mentioned George Burns earlier. If I had known I was going to live this long. I would have taken better care of myself.
Michael says hello Dave. As both a judge of the law and a minister. How would you respond to a pastor? Who not only refuses to tell his congregation to refrain from meeting when the government has a call for a quarantine?
But also attacks other pastors through various media Accusing them of bowing to authority when they should be standing firm for what they see as a biblical principle. Please address from both points of view legal and biblical.
I have already seen dr. John MacArthur Accused of this. I imagine there are others. I Guess he what he means is accused of yeah of bowing down To Caesar or something not the the where he's calling right other pastors being.
Wimps.
That second part first now, I think that we don't know all their circumstances and we don't know what God. No. We should not. I think we do need to distinguish the issue. That distinction is clearly there in the scripture and no, I'm of the firm belief Caesar has the right To shut down.
This is of maintaining. Thank you. We have to understand government from a big, you know. Any sort of just come out and say it we should you know I think Christians have tried to equate them is not the equivalent.
Communism is not the equation for most Christ. Oh, but he rules and righteousness. Man's philosophies fall far short. That's where we always have to start the authority. Why. Because they're the authority God place over us and up.
We're rejecting the orchestra totalitarian, you know. No good and it's for the restraint of evil to compartmental and once again, but that's God and his grace. In the midst of a totalitarian state. It was not a democracy then when Arcadian, you know took power after his uncle had been assassinated and he became the first Emperor.
Oh, no, he took over the Roman Empire. Everyone had to listen to him. Paul and Peter are writing these things back even earlier when Christ was speaking. It's in the context of a totalitarian state. But by a going war and once again are the authorities over us within the context of them being appointed by God to Maintain, but you enter into God's what and these men are in place again.
If these rulers are going contrary then no, then we have to obey God before we obey man now.
Let me let me get let me get some clarification just so our listeners Get more of an idea where you're coming from. Do you believe that the church. Barring some thing like a a fire or a so-called natural catastrophe.
Or something as serious as the black plague something that as far was far more deadly than what we were witnessing. Are you saying that barring something like that? The church In order to truly be obedient to God must gather on the Lord's Day.
Or are you just saying that it shouldn't be a prolonged a prohibition from public gathering.
Good question. And once again, that's that's your church gets blown down by a tornado to that particular location and worship God. Even in your home. I do it. They're saying it during the corona virus.
Or are we really is it is it deadly and serious enough where we would have to prohibit our fellow congregants from.
Gathering some individuals it may be even the churches. I know that it's still they've actually counsel and advised those who are Clearly vulnerable and don't want to unness in the context of where the church was being.
They can't necessarily thing came up in the question temporal and so we can make these. Yes, even even somebody about a date of April 30th, by the way I think that's the new date now by President Trump, right?
Are you going to some other states? It's not about the date and even somebody even somebody that we both know.
Dr. James R. White of alpha to make a ministries who is very sober-minded and level-headed and balanced when it comes to this area and he's not known to be a conspiracy theorist. But he but he is either he has rightly said that we are already seeing hints Coming from the mouths of politicians.
That they would like nothing more than to flex their muscles and Shut down houses of worship and I'm sure in some of their minds permanently. And in fact, it was interesting. How dr. White mentioned when?
The threat of longer Prohibitions for public worship gatherings Was made by one politician in particular. He never mentioned mosques. He only mentioned churches and synagogues. Right, but but anyway, we have to go to our midway break right now and By the way, I will get to your question momentarily.
Lou in Seville, Long Island. In fact, let me read Lou's question before we go to the midway break and you could answer it when we return. Lou in Seville, Long Island, New York says hello, Dave and Chris.
I'm not a pastor or elder of a church and I realize this is not an easy decision for them to make. There are some These are somewhat press it unprecedented times and Pastors and elders need our support and submission and respect but a question would be Why do you think churches are not endeavoring to have more smaller? services keeping social distance still and Taking all precautions for instance the Church of 300 Let's say could possibly have four services two on Sunday two on Saturday.
Well, obviously there would be a difference of opinion on the Sabbath there. And so 75 congregants could come to each service. Probably many congregants will not come anyway, and the church will self-limit and people there are or People there that are elderly or compromised would be encouraged to stay at home.
He has a second question that we'll get to when we return. So if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
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That's iron sharpens iron radio dot-com. As host of iron sharpens iron radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations. A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.
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And our topic today is voluntary versus mandatory restrictions on public gatherings and reflections upon Hebrews 10 25 before I return to that discussion. Let me just give you a couple of important announcements so far We are still going to be conducting barring anything Unforeseen in regard to the corona virus or other circumstance.
We are still going to be having our next spring iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon on Friday, May 29th 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. At the Bon Giorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, that's the first time we've ever had it at the Bon Giorno Conference Center and Also for the very first time.
I'm so thrilled that dr. Conrad and Bayway is going to be our guest speaker at the next iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon and We are so thrilled about that. As I said barring any Unforeseen reason including the corona virus scare that would prohibit us from having this meeting.
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That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Dave Corson Administrative law judge and ordained minister as we continue our theme today voluntary versus mandatory restrictions on public gatherings and reflections upon 10 Hebrews 10 verse 25 and going back to Our question from our listener we had Lou in Sayville and I am right now looking here it is the question as you may recall is he wants to know if It would not be better for churches to have smaller gatherings and he's Probably not even going small or small enough because you could have you could have even smaller gatherings in people's homes.
Yeah, we're three or more gathered. Yeah, right, right. He was saying, you know, 75 people we could even have Church home groups that don't exceed ten people if you want to remain faithful to what the authorities are saying.
You could have nine or ten or actually ten or less people in your home. So, what do you how do you respond to that?
Yeah, that is a way once again within God's providence. I think the church should be examining first before they just simply say we're we're not going to meet and worship because It is so vitally essential to use the operative word today.
What's essential? It is so vitally essential for Christians to be able to come together. And I think we can find other options of alias within Providence and once again taking into account certain public health concerns I put this this is we do have to deal with this issue of the essentialness of Coming together and gathering together.
It's not a question of the numbers as much as it is an issue of are we coming together? We have been commanded to come together. We even come to where we are a body, you know Josh by just that have delivered a wonderful message this patient minister to one another in Jesus question more and more Christians.
I guess that I was the minority voice maybe a couple of weeks ago. It's on I've seen other pastors coming around. They're asking these same questions that I was asking as well. Where do you draw that line?
What God has commanded us to do to not forsake the meeting of together and whatever means or capacity that he gives us. Because it isn't that it's essential for us to partake of the means of grace. It's essential for us to be under the ministry of the word to see it with one another encouraging each other and edifying each other.
This is a necessity of it. Okay, if I get the sniffles this weekend, I don't show for church fine. But I know I better be back in church later in the week or I better. You know, there may be things that keep me from going to church and that better not become my lifestyle.
That better not become my my whole future. As a Christian where God has promised to come and meet with us with his Holy Spirit to our lives. And it's because God is a personal God. He's a relational God and he's called us to be personal relation with with one another.
You know that once again for the time being and we may be taking some of these other innovative steps. We may be using Skype and seems like that certain period of time, but there's going to come a place where no we do need To be in each other's presence and we do need to encourage each other.
I think the other factor that comes in here. Do we really see the big picture and that's a church when God judgment in the world? It is the humble the righteous and it's the heart in the hearts and lives of believers as much as he's working in the hearts and lives of the wicked and that's where we have to be very humble before God and we have to Not lose sight of hey, this is an overall judgment.
God is going to end this virus when he decides to end this virus. So we have to be faithful and obedient to what he's called us to do with whatever means he provided a lie. He said I'm just saying let's not just talk about meeting together and this is no big deal.
This is only a short period of time.
No.
This is as we see this go on and as we and I'm gonna be straight out and say listen I do not see a repentant heart in our nation in our society. This is what I meant before about saying That our world is just is not just a temporal thing because you already hear our leaders.
Yeah, we can't let this happen again. We have to prevent this from happening again. No, they're not saying hey God, please forgive me God, please show us a mercy here. God, please help us to be restored to you.
They still want to be in control. They still want to run their own lives. So we should not be surprised as a church. This virus goes on for another year. Who knows but then again, what do we do then as the church?
Are we supposed that God calls us to carry out and live out? Like I said, we may need to be more innovative. We may need to take you know, smaller groups or maybe we do need to Be on Skype for a year.
I don't know or resume for a year. Maybe that's the case, but I'm just saying let's not forsake meeting with each other. Let's find whatever means God provides us.
Yes, and of course every pastor worth his salt that I am aware of. Reminds the congregation that there is something very spiritually and supernaturally unique About the Saints gathered together that you are not you are not benefiting from.
Sitting at home alone watching Skype or watching. Yeah. Well, you know, yeah.
I mean even the pastors like I said even the pastors who sell me that we had to take these steps for our particular even. They're saying it's not the same. Recognizes that and.
We also know the reason why the church has to go to God in prayer. And yes and a lot of what we are talking about Involves what is the reaction of most biblically sound? Doctrinally faithful pastors, what is going to be their reaction even if they are currently among those that are aggressively Telling people to stay home.
What are they going to be saying if this continues for months and months and over a year? Is there going to be a strategy where we are going to start saying? That the corona virus seems to have dissipated.
It seems to be much safer to enter into the community and public freely. We've got to start gathering no matter what the government says, right?
Try to judge the hearts and the intentions of my fellow pastors, but these issues should have been communicated to the church. Hey, listen, we're doing this temporarily right now. We'll see how the Lord leads but we do need to get back together.
We need they need to be communicating that to their congregations. The importance of this.
All right, and of course as I already hinted at earlier when I was talking about James White when he was on a recent dividing line program quoting from a politician who was threatening Longer and perhaps permanent bans.
Gatherings we we are living in a day and age when politicians and the government could use it as an excuse. Exactly shut churches down the fact that. Well, this worked fairly. Well, we got rid of the corona virus by Quarantining people.
Let's permanently keep the churches from public gathering. You never know. That sounds really that sounds insane. But in this day and age, I wouldn't be all that shocked. But anyway, let me let me go to Lou Lou and say Ville Has a second question and it is do you think church leaders will be more inclined to endeavor to have smaller gatherings at this time of core if the quarantine continues that would be requiring of you the gift of prophecy, I think but Let me let me let me let me rephrase the question.
And I hope you don't mind that Lou. Sure should perhaps churches. Who are mega churches and of course Reform Baptist Church if there's 500 people there. That's definitely a church for According to Phil Johnson, he has a worship service at Grace Community Church that's that's a separate gathering and I remember him on my show saying that it was like a small chapel of about 500.
Realize Phil that that's a mega church if you're a reformed Baptist. But I remember my friend I don't know if you remember him he's with the Lord for eternity now in heaven dr. Robert J. Cameron he was one of the few African-american Pastors at the time right of his ordination.
I think he said there was only like one or two others in the entire country right in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the prior to that was the PCA but He he didn't believe in large churches. He believed that once a church Expanded beyond the capacity for elders to be able to faithfully Oversee the number of people under their authority that they had to he believed.
He believed they were obligated to start planting of the churches. But but that does that concept? Sound like a good idea for you a lesson learned perhaps that.
That perhaps I do. I mean, I've always had concerns about the quote-unquote. The mega church. I remember that this was. And I remember there was a time in the early 1990s and this Christians going to get you following the biblical principles of going out making disciples and Discipleship better than everybody else when this was such an emphasis.
You're not really a real church unless you know. You're packing it out. No, you have stadium capacity. I said that is something I I'm not a prophet the Apostles, but we don't have the complete Word of God.
But here's the thing I'm not surprised if this is not the hand of God. Yeah, we have to remember of Christ God. We have face a primary call the churches to go out and make disciples. Yes, you will meet someone you'll share the gospel with them.
But the idea of discipleship you're developing relationships with other people and you're showing them Christ. Not through through the word and through your life and with their life and applying the word in your life and applying the word in Their lives that's discipleship.
That's what Christ did.
Not now.
You have an elder. There is a practical matter. They can only see so many people they can only decide. I've always been one of the things I wanted to take advantage of while you are on.
Because I don't have a lot of lawyers and Judges on my show not by design. It's just. But I wanted to take advantage of the things that you know about the law now, right. There are things as I was saying earlier right at the outset of the show that are confusing.
Because we don't know when we hear a politician or when we hear a talking head on the news in the media. When they start spouting. That you can't gather more than 10 people in public and things like that.
And like my as I told you before. My friend calling me in a panic. We're on lockdown and I'm like walking around Outside with the traffic just normal as ever and I'm going to get coffee and all this and I'm getting food.
And take out places just as I always did. How much of this that we are hearing is really legally binding and how much is it just strong strong advice. Or the preferences of the ones saying it like for instance.
We do like so we allowed to gather legally publicly in ten or more people.
Especially for weapons. To this point you were legally that we're now seeing more aggressive to law now. You he said no churches are still free to gather and meet. We would recommend they not. You know, we're not telling the churches.
They can't be.
Is that still the case.
As far as I know it is. But and even then there's a question. See the courts have not gotten involved here. The legislature's a bill. You have all these governors and and you know passing these executive orders.
And what is the efficacy of those executive orders? It hasn't been challenged yet because once again everyone is saying hey the greater good here is the public health. So we understand governor Cuomo sending out an exit executive order saying shut down your businesses.
A grip on this the churches. He could say we're not asking or telling the church's just and they closed very careful. I'm very cautious and that has been so far the policy up to this point that I'm aware now.
Let me ask you a question. We many of us have heard about the Notorious heretic Rodney Howard Brown being arrested in Florida for refusing to obey the prohibition of.
Public gathering now as much as I just and that's my mother's day. They did actually pass an actual resolution to that. Okay, legal. It was not just an executive order that there was you know, a legislative law that was passed.
That's my understanding and I could be wrong about that. Okay has more information. Please correct me, but that's what I'm trying to say. We're now seeing a shift. We're now seeing people right? Well.
Obviously as much as I despise Rodney Howard Brown and everything he stands for I Am concerned about the precedent being set by governor exactly and what I'm. What I'm curious about is I had previously thought and I guess I was wrong that only martial law could be established before the freedom to assemble and the freedom to worship was postponed or restrained by the government.
Now if you could tell our listeners what martial law is and then Answer my question specifically about it and if you could do so after we come from our final break because we are we have to go to our final break and If you have a question send it in immediately because they're rapidly running out of time.
Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We are gonna be right back after these messages from our sponsors. This Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.
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The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties. When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear and the like? Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen and Pastor Joe Jakowicz as they explore God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues.
Tune in at FirstLoveRadio .org. That's FirstLoveRadio .org each Friday at 1 p .m. Pacific 4 p .m. Eastern. That's Iron Sharpens Iron on FirstLoveRadio .org Fridays 1 p .m. Pacific 4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say about Pandemics and how we should respond.
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It's every Friday on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, an update on the coronavirus pandemic with Joe Jakowicz. Tomorrow we have Kurt Daniel on the show Very well known amongst Reformed Baptists. We are going to be discussing his new massive Nearly 900 page hardback book The History and Theology of Calvinism and we are giving away free copies to the six First six questioners that have actually good questions.
And because it's an expensive book. You can't just ask anything. So if the think of a great question and you're gonna get a free book if you have one of the first six.
Before the break I was telling you or asking you I should say to what's martial law. Yes, and this is in response to the fact that the United States Constitution Has promised us that Congress shall make no respecting shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or Of the press or the right of the people to peacefully assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, so the assembling and the freedom of religion is key here.
And If you could why would martial law? What is it and when and why would it be used to say right from the get-go?
Martial law trumps constitutional freedom. The idea of martial law that there's a national emergency. What it means martial means you use and limited the longest time it was opposed and that was only imposed Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War.
Primarily we know president times of emergency can exercise martial law. It means he's enforcing his orders by the use of military force. It's happened on a couple of other. Governor can Activate the National Guard.
Civil liberties are suspended during the time of martial law. There's a time when dictator was it was a nice thing was a good thing. The dictator was appointed by the Senate to address a particular national crisis and the president had been.
That I want the crisis is over that person relinquishes and defeat our enemies to save the city of Rome. Then fine. Okay, you're back and now we're back to the Senate running everything. That's how it used to be and once again their time of national emergency.
We need to take this not how to present command both President Trump and governor.
I'm sorry, there are no compliments for governor Cuomo on the show. That that is something that is restricted on my show and that is my martial law.
I mean my favorite story of martial law is actually Harry Truman when the National Railroads went before the nationalization of the railroads. But when railroads all went on strike Harry Truman declared martial law and had the federal troops take over the railroads.
Of course the site the strikes ended the railroad started running. Of course, someone made a constitutional appeal. Constitutional by the time we got the Supreme Court the strike was settled. The Supreme Court said it's moot now.
This has never really come up to any sort of the constitutional scrutiny at any extent because once again We've had government leaders who've not abused. And what happened, especially like I said, I keep coming back to God's.
We don't know what can happen. So I want to do a gloom guy. I first of all Christ has overcome this world and he is overcoming this world. He's returning again. He reigned so I'm not a doom and gloom guy.
But we also have to deal with this. We do have to be aware of this. If God is gonna bring such judgment and then you know, we as Christians we have to have some series are now. Preventing us from worshiping God and doing it.
With the excuse and the Corona intended I still stand by that now.
My main reason for having you define and Explain martial law is why is it not? required to have martial law to shut down constitutionally guaranteed freedoms like Assembling and worshiping as we choose.
Like for instance with Rodney Howard Brown Being arrested in Florida. You said that there was a An update in the the law there. How could they do that constitutionally without?
Martial law. Like I said Is that constitutional. Is that having their their local law enforcement enforce that is that constitutional martial law? Specifically the military being put in use. Okay, but my question an elected body.
Making laws that would go law enforcement civilian law enforcement enforcing that law. Is that constitutional though? Is it is what I don't think it is.
That's that was my main point.
My understanding of the Constitution. I hope that they wait for somebody else.
Would rather than defend somebody else who got in trouble. Okay, well I have a question. I think it's probably the last question that we have time to read right. Michael in Flemington, New Jersey says looking at the issue Following government edicts is most interesting to those skeptical of big government.
I'm also getting the sense that some folks don't think kovat 19 is all that dangerous. I believe the issue is more rightly about the Sabbath and Pharisaical strictures. Matthew chapter 12 departing from there.
He went into the synagogue and a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus asking Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath so that they might accuse him? And he said to them what man is there among you who has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath?
Will he not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep? So then it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Elders have a response. This is where the quote ends elders have a responsibility to Protect the flock of Christ, even if it is the Lord's Day.
The earthly good of folks is not set aside. I don't think you would disagree with that at all.
Protecting we're not necessarily as we need to respect the Saints were elderly and are infirmed and being careful and take you are not to Do that stopping to worship God and if we're not protecting their spiritual health if we're not exhorting and encouraging and spurring one another on to worship God and to build each easy Slam-dunk decision.
I guess that's what we're just looking in on specific passages of Scripture and not looking at the whole. It's me or and like I said, I'm not trying to judge my fellow pastors because they may have considered these things.
They may have consider all these factors in their decisions about but I don't know if they're effectively Communicating that all the whole Council of God. That's a great question. That was asked, you know.
Because yeah. There is a place for us to take care of those in need and protect those who are in need on the on this Sabbath. Ability to protect and we are not looking out for the spiritual have to be direct here and say I'm more concerned about people contracting.
The.
Virus and and succumbing to the virus by not going to the church that I am concerned about them going to the church. And of course, I have to be direct about that.
And of course people losing their ability financially to provide for their home and church. Yeah, because of this scare. The financial catastrophe facing this nation could be far worse than the corona virus itself as people have said.
As people have said the cure may be more deadly than the.
Exactly. That's the point. I'm trying to make so I'm saying what the guy I'm saying be very cautious here and careful here and what I'm asking.
All of my listeners Who are rightfully concerned about the health and well-being of not only their congregation but the surrounding community who are very much in favor of the The current ban or at least strong suggestion to not assemble In groups of ten or more and public.
I am just asking you to consider. What are you going to be thinking and doing? If this is still going on two three four five six seven eight nine Months from now a year from now right, etc. Exactly that you know, that is what we all have to pray about.
How do we respond exactly exactly now now as far as far as you know. Other than what occurred in Florida. Are you aware of any laws that are? Allegedly trumping the Constitution when like for instance in Pennsylvania my friend as I keep repeating.
So we're on lockdown. What does that mean? Do you know what these things even mean. We're on lockdown and yeah.
Well, and this came up this past weekend between Donald Trump and Governor Cuomo. Donald Trump was a I'm considering quarantine New York and even Andrew Cuomo. Yeah, Governor Cuomo's even saying what does he mean by that?
I mean because right now for all intents and purposes New York City really is in a quarantine. You walk down the streets of New York today. They're deserted. You go on the Long Island Railroad. The trains are deserted.
I don't know as your office is not like it is. I mean, we've taken all sorts of quarantine this and as I said, I think rightfully so I'm just saying there's an it we have to consider the exception though of being a holy nation.
No, as your office is a judge questions are still people that our government leaders are still even asking these questions. How far can we go and like I said to our God's great friend and not our friend.
What what about your law offices or should I say your your offices as an administrative law judge.
Schedules been revamped. We are considered essential. I'm essential on certain days.
On.
Certain days those consider me essential but our whole schedule our her our whole staffing has dramatically changed. But I've had an impact on our culture low down in terms of how it address and there are a lot of our government Agencies are trying to figure out and deal with all these issues.
We are not. They are making some very tough decisions here as well and they are trying to look out for the great. We've had to make some major adjustments even in terms of how we govern. We can't even govern effectively right now.
Or or not. Let's put it this way. We can't go over to the same level of efficacy because people always question even how to Go on the Long Island Railroad the other day I had my ticket ready and I had my government ID ready because they are now under what's called essential employee train schedules.
I was actually concerned that a conductor or an MTA cop actually asked me. Where's your ID? How is your job essential? I have another friend same thing. He actually got a letter from his boss right now.
And once again, I think it's the grateful panic mode here or the government has had to impose martial law I think so that and that's all the more reason why we need to be praying and all the more reason why we need to be Worshipping God, you know and humbling ourselves before God and seeking his forgiveness.
No, no, what are.
The ways that your average citizen when he hears something on the news That there's a lockdown there is a Shutdown there's this and that how do they find out? Wait a minute. Is this this politician or talking head in the news.
Yes giving Their preference their strong.
Advice.
There's even threatening advice. Or even is this this person this politicians? Violating our constitutional freedom, how do they find out what's going on? Really? I mean whether it's just. Whether it as the theme of our show is voluntary or mandatory, how do they find out?
Yeah, exactly.
Call up the governor's office and get the power. That's why I would encourage your pastor. What what is in fact, like I said, I'm speaking as to what are you gonna get a knowledgeable person answering the phone?
You know government officials and and but don't be surprised to. Let you don't hear some of these governor government officials saying we're still taking it day by day. And honestly, our government agencies are acting in a day-by-day basis here.
We will process listening churches needed to be a do need to be called. Okay?
Well, we are out of time and I want to thank every one of our listeners who submitted questions. Because they are all first-time questioners. And they are all going to receive if they give me their mailing addresses a free copy of the New American Standard Bible compliments of the publishers of the NASB and Compliments of CV bbs .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
Who will be shipping that out to you free of charge? So, please if you wrote in a question today, give me your full mailing address and Those Bibles will be shipped out to you. Also. I wanted to tell Mike in Flemington, New Jersey.
He submitted another question. I will even ask your question Again with the addition the the extra question. I will I will submit that to Joe Jackowitz on Friday live During my interview with Joe Jackowitz when he is going to be doing his coronavirus update.
In fact, if you could remind me and email me again Michael, that'd be great. Just so I don't forget and I want to thank you so much Dave Corson. It's been a joy I look forward to your return to iron sharpens iron radio.
It's been far too long I want to thank you. I want to thank everybody who listened. Oh, by the way and send my love to your your lovely bride Jill and Will do and I want Everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
Amen.