April 1, 2020 Show with Dave Corson on “Voluntary vs. Mandatory Restrictions on Public Gatherings (& Reflections Upon Hebrews 10:25)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy April Fool's Day on this first day of April 2020.

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And although this is April Fool's Day, we are going to be discussing a serious matter, although, however, it will certainly contain some laughter and humor in it, because my friend

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Dave Korsen, who I've known for many years, has an incredibly good sense of humor, and he and I have had some of the loudest and longest laughs that I've ever experienced together.

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He is, believe it or not, after saying that, he's an administrative law judge and an ordained minister, and today we are going to address voluntary versus mandatory restrictions on public gatherings and reflections on Hebrews 10, verse 25.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after years of absence from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dave Korsen.

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How's it going there, Chris? I'm sorry, what'd you say? How's it going there, Chris? Can you hear me okay?

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Oh, yeah, I hear you fine. I'm surprised you didn't change your introduction, though. A show of theologians, pastors, and then people like Korsen.

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I'm surprised you didn't change it. Now, I think the last time you were on my show, you were on the

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Pastors' Roundtable, perhaps, on the old Iron Sharpens Iron program when it was broadcasting, out of WNYG and WGBB.

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And beautiful downtown Babylon, right? That's right. That's right. Babylon. Oh, the Carlisle.

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So you're moving up in the world. Well, I don't know if the Babylonian listeners would agree with that, but I do love

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Carlisle. Come on, happier audience, I'm sorry. I do love Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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It is my new home, and I am adjusting very well here.

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And before we go into a little bit of a description on your work as an administrative law judge in New York City, you are a former stand -up comic.

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And I'd like for you to share with our listeners some of that background. And I know that you were actually also a part of a comedic

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TV broadcast. So if you could share with our listeners more about that. Yes.

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I actually, as Andy Warhol once predicted, when he said that he was talking about the advent of television, when broadcast television was just in people's homes, he was saying he had this prophetic vision of saying, you know, with the advent of broadcast television, everyone's going to be famous for 15 minutes.

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I think Andy Warhol would be rolling over in his grave now if he stops to think about the social media and YouTube and Facebook and podcasts.

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Everyone now is famous and famous for a lot longer now. Well, I think that's the least of Andy Warhol's memories.

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Exactly. But yeah,

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I did have 15 minutes of fame. Or not really quite, maybe about nine minutes of fame. Because I did appear on the program.

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I was part of a comedy improvisational group called The Course in Intrusion. And we traveled around the country.

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We appeared in colleges, clubs. And this was at the peak of stand -up comedy.

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Just a little entertainment history for you. You know, disco faded out at the end of the 70s.

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And so clubs were trying to figure out what do we do now to keep the businesses going. So all of a sudden everybody had a comedy club.

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Disco turned into comedy clubs. My friend John Trueson and I, we actually met in college. We'd done shows together in college there.

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Yeah, so we were part of this little improvisational group. And then we started traveling around.

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And, yeah, we actually got invited to appear on a show called Comedy Tonight, which was on, this was just when the

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Fox Network established itself. Yeah, and they were trying to do a competition, or a competition with Saturday Night Live.

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Exactly. And so my partner and I, we appeared on Comedy Tonight. Had the pleasure of actually appearing with George Burns before he passed on.

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I'm glad it was before he passed on. Yeah, exactly. I guess he was pretty close.

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Well, no, he was a sweet, dear man. And I always appreciate his famous line about saying, every morning

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I wake up I look at the obituaries and my name isn't there, but I know it's going to be a good day.

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So, yeah, that was how that evolved. And then I ended up going to law school.

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And then you also became an ordained minister. That's it. And I can look back at all those points in my life, and those quote -unquote career changes, and it was all the hand of God.

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And it was God really transforming my heart and my will over Him. I came to know the

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Lord at a very young age. And that was one of the things that kind of brought me out of professional show business, so to speak, because I started to see, and I still remember

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Pastor Robert Hoover at 112 Baptist Church, one Sunday morning was preaching from Hebrews and talking about Moses, Hebrews 11 there, and saying, you know,

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Moses, he left Pharaoh's court to follow after God. And I don't remember any of his other sermons, but I remember him talking about how

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Moses left Pharaoh's court to worship and serve

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God, because that had been pressing on me. The interesting thing was the more successful I became in entertainment, you know, the more

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I started to realize how far away I was from the Lord. And so God in His grace actually stopped me dead in my tracks, so to speak.

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And my next career pursuit was in practice of law. And the same thing there, you know, it was my experience in the court system that really put on my heart about the importance and the significance of the gospel.

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What you learn in the court system as a Christian, you start to see none of the government programs, whether it be jail or it be rehab programs, none of those things can change people's hearts.

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It's only the gospel. And so, once again, God worked through those experiences, too. Because people had always been saying, oh,

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Dave, you know, you're a good Bible teacher. Have you ever thought about ministry? And I just said, nah, you know, I've got these other things

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I'm doing. But God just kept chipping away at my heart. And so he started to say, no, this is the most important thing.

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Seek first after my kingdom and my righteousness. And I don't regret any of those decisions about taking career changes is to follow after the

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Lord. And the Lord's been nothing more but gracious and loving. And it's His work. He gets the glory.

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It's Him working in me and through me. And so it's been through all those circumstances. That's where I am today.

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Well, I am glad to know you as a friend. And I am glad to know you as a brother in Christ.

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And also glad to have as a friend your dear, lovely wife, Jill, as a friend and as a sister in Christ.

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And, in fact, I can say, without exaggeration, one of my favorite memories of all time of my entire life was when

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I was making a very good income for WMCA Radio, Salem Media.

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And I treated you, Jill, Dan, and Cindy Buttafuoco, another lawyer, to a

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Broadway show, The Producers. The Producers, yeah. And also to a really phenomenal

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Russian restaurant in Manhattan called Firebird.

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It was my late wife Julie's favorite restaurant. And so she and I joined you and Jill and Dan and Cindy in Manhattan that evening.

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And what a precious memory that is. And, in fact, it was the first time that I saw the intensity of your explosive laughter to the extent that I witnessed it at The Producers.

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And you were cracking up at that play, especially certain parts of it.

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And it was funny because I would also laugh, and I am known for a loud laugh.

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And my wife is jabbing me in the ribs with her elbow trying to get me to laugh more quietly.

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And I'm like, are you kidding me? This is a comedy play. What are you asking me to stop laughing for? And I'm like, look at him!

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And I remember pointing at you. And you were ready to have a coronary arrest.

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You were laughing so hard, I think. But what a great memory. So tell us exactly what it is that an administrative law judge does.

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What are your responsibilities? An administrative law judge oversees cases involving administrative law.

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What are those cases? Let me give you a brief civics lesson. When Congress or a state legislator, when they establish laws and establish government agencies, they give those government agencies, once again, the discretion to establish certain rules and regulations to carry out the laws.

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That's administrative law. These are the rules and regulations established by administrative agencies, established by our

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Congresses and our legislators to say, hey, we have all these social issues. Let's start a new government agency and have that government agency address that problem.

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And then as a practical matter, you know, it's one thing to have these policies. It's one thing to have all these legislations.

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But then how do you actually put it into effect? Well, then you do need certain rules and regulations. So these administrative agencies then come up with rules and regulations.

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And then once again, every time you have a law, you need someone to interpret those laws. And so that's what an administrative law judge, he looks to see if the rules and regulations were properly carried out and handled.

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And did either the agency violate those rules or did the appellant violate those rules or the recipient violate those rules?

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Well, I'm glad to have you on because perhaps you can help separate fact from fiction when it comes to some of the things involving restrictions on public gatherings.

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The thing that has been very confusing about this whole thing is that the way that the media and politicians say things, including our president, can be either confusing or fuzzy or even misleading.

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Because when they make statements, you don't know if this is a strong suggestion or is it a law binding, a legally binding, mandatory restriction that's being placed upon us.

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And in fact, I had a friend just moments before the show started when

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I told him I was doing some errands and he goes, oh, didn't you hear that Pennsylvania is on lockdown as of last night at eight o 'clock?

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We're on lockdown. And I said, what does that exactly mean? I'm doing the same thing

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I did last week. I am going to stores that are open to get errands and run errands and get food and beverages.

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And I, you know, the mailman came today and I got coffee today from a takeout place.

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I mean, what do you mean we're on lockdown? I mean, that kind of thing. He had like this panic in his voice and he's not leaving the house because we're on lockdown.

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So we're going to get to some of the specifics about those kinds of things. But the catalyst to have you having you on the program today, it involves to a degree, to a large degree,

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Hebrews chapter 10, verse 25. And that is a classic passage from the scriptures that most of us are very familiar with.

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It says that we are not to be giving up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day approaching.

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And of course, my actual favorite translation is the

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New American Standard Bible. And I'm going to look that up in that version because that one that I read is from the

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NIV and I'm not particularly fond of the NIV. And while I'm looking that up, folks, our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. And the NASB, not forsaking our own assembling together as it is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

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What was it that you were advising, recommending? And this is while you were wearing primarily your minister cap, your ordained minister cap.

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What were you advising that caused a bit of controversy even among some of your very close, dear, longtime friends and brethren in Christ, even of the same theological persuasion?

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Can I pray first before I address some of these things? Answer you and address them.

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You sound like you're getting ready for an execution or something. By the way, feel free, folks, to send in questions, even if you disagree with Dave, because he's used to being heckled, being a former comedian.

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More so from being a lawyer. Well, you're used to being hated rather than heckled.

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Everyone loves quoting Henry VI to me. First thing we do is let's kill all the lawyers. Well, go ahead.

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I always pray before the show when we're off the air, but go ahead. Pray. The reason I want to is because as one dear brother has even related to me, these are difficult times and difficult decisions.

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And I think this is at the heart of my concern and the heart of my position here, that we really do need to be seeking

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God's wisdom. So if we could do that now. Heavenly, gracious Father, you alone are God.

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You are worthy of all praise, glory, and honor. Lord God, your name is to be exalted above all things.

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All things are by you and for you. You know the end to the beginning. Lord God, we are but dust.

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And, Lord God, you've clearly made it evident in your word, and not only evident, but you've exhorted us from your word that we always need to be still.

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And we always need to know that you're God. So, Lord, please help us in these times to be still, to know that you're

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God, to seek your will and carry out your will. Please be with us now through this podcast.

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Help us to be still and know that you're God. And, Lord God, we first and foremost want to ask for your grace in these times.

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We ask for your grace to please save and sanctify your people and to build your church. And, Lord God, too, we also ask you to be gracious.

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And please bring about not only spiritual healing, but physical healing in these matters.

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Lord, our list of loved ones and family and friends and neighbors and contacts, the list is ever -growing of people who are contracting this disease and are suffering under this disease.

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Lord, we want to lift them all up to you, Lord. Please, Lord God, do not only spiritual work in their lives and sanctifying work in their lives, but do physical work in their lives as well.

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And uphold them physically and spiritually. So, Lord willing, they may glorify your name and continue to worship you and serve you.

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And, Lord God, I ask for myself, once again, for your grace and your mercy. Lord, please give me a receptive heart.

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Continue, Lord. I've been praying. Please continue, Lord God, to search me out. Lord, show me any error in my thinking, any sin in my heart or my way.

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And, Lord, may I be receptive and open to any correction here today. And, Lord, please, once again, help me to speak the truth and love today.

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Give me the wisdom and the strength to do that. And may my speech be even with Saul. May my speech, once again, be for the edification of the church.

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And, once again, Lord God, may your truth be heard today, not my own selfish wisdom. And may your name be glorified, not myself.

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And, Lord God, I lift up Brother Chris and I lift up our listeners here today. Lord, what's important here today is not who's right or wrong.

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What's important is that we all grow in our love and faith and knowledge of you, Lord Jesus Christ. And that we worship you and glorify you all in accordance to your word and by the power of the

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Holy Spirit. Whatever means that takes place or whatever logistics that takes place, we just commit that,

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Lord, to your will. And, Lord, make us faithful and obedient to your will. Help us to know your will and help us to carry out your will.

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And, Lord God, we ask these things not because of anything we've done or deserved or will, but because you're a gracious, merciful, loving

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God. And we ask these things. Amen. Amen. Well, as we were saying, you sent out an email and many of your friends, very close friends, even fellow brethren from the same church, were responding.

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And there was some reasonably mild interaction with disagreement.

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And it also shows you that the body of Christ, when it comes to very important things that have global magnitude to them, very often we disagree with each other, even if we're in the same theological camp.

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Right, exactly. What I've been trying to communicate in my emails and my small circle of influence, whatever that may be, is that I feel there are times when it is good to have these dissenting views.

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And, once again, as a matter of conscience, we do need to raise one another's consciences.

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And so that was at the heart of the intent of these correspondence. And I've already sought the forgiveness, in fact, of two elders who basically and lovingly and correctly about saying they really felt it would have been wiser for me to send out this correspondence primarily to elders, you know, so not to cause any discord between leadership and laity.

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And I asked for their forgiveness, and they were very gracious to, once again, to forgive me.

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And then the other aspect that I would want to say here, too, I still want to make very clear, because I don't know who's in your audience today.

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I don't know who's listening. There could be leaders and laity here. But I do want to, first of all, say to the leadership of the churches, this is not me calling anyone out or saying you're not a man of God, and this is not to attack whatever particular decisions you have to make for your particular congregations.

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And also, too, I want to strongly exhort and encourage the laity, submit to your elders, and follow after them as they so follow after Christ.

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And, you know, they have your souls at heart, and so you need to follow after them in accordance to God's word.

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So I don't, it is not my intention to create any strife or division or discord in the church.

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Where I'm coming from is basically this. And by the way, too, it was not at the statement or the position of any particular pastor or church that prompted me to send out my correspondence.

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It was because what I was hearing from so many national evangelical leaders, and I'm not going to mention names today because, first of all, there are too many of them, and I don't have personal contact with any of these leaders, and it wouldn't be fair for me to call their name out without honestly talking to them first.

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But what raised my concern was, and first of all, I agree with them on two points.

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I agree wholeheartedly we need to love our neighbor. And I wholeheartedly agree that we need to, once again, submit to our governing authorities.

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What I found lacking from the conversation, what I found missing from the conversation, though, was are we first and foremost loving

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God? And are we properly worshiping Him? Because I believe loving our neighbor,

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I believe submitting to our governing authorities, is subject to us first loving God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

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If I could, Chris, if I could just read from a news article, because, once again, this issue is becoming more pressing, and I want to be very careful here, but this was a news article by a journalist by the name of Ed Mazza, and he's quoting the state attorney, that would be the prosecutor for Howard Brown County, I believe that's in the

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Tampa Bay area of Florida, that he just issued an arrest warrant and arrested a pastor of a church in violation of a local town ordinance, municipal ordinance, which actually specifically prohibited the meeting of churches, from what

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I understand. And the state attorney, this is his quote, and this is what the, I want to be very clear here, this is what the news journalist is saying, the state attorney said, whether the state attorney actually said it or not, maybe another question, but this is how the news journalist was quoting state attorney

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Andrew Warren, said the state attorney, Andrew Warren, offered up a Bible passage that Howard Brown, I'm sorry,

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Howard Brown is the pastor, not the county, Howard Brown seemed to ignore it. I'd remind the good pastor of Mark 12, 31, which said, there's no more important commandment than to love thy neighbor as thyself, he said.

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Loving your neighbors is protecting them and jeopardizing their health by loving your neighbors, protecting them, not jeopardizing their health by exposing them to this deadly virus.

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What concerns me is, once again, is that the attitude of the church as well, because that verse, that concept, that's a misquote of the scripture.

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Well, I should say this, it's taking scripture out of context, because the full context of Mark chapter 12, regarding this particular matter, the full context is, let me read it for you, starting at verse 29,

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Jesus answered them saying, the first of all the commandments, the first of all the commandments is, hero

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Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength.

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This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

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There is no other commandment greater than these. So loving our neighbor has to be seen in the full context of the first commandment, the greatest commandment, of loving the

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Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And once again, this is, Apostle Matthew also records this in his passage relating to a similar event.

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And when the pharisees heard that he had signed with the pharisees, they gathered together, then one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him, saying, teacher, what is the great commandment in the law?

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The great commandment in the law, Jesus said to them, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.

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This is the first and great commandment. And the second is, like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

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On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. And like I said, what

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I've heard from the national conversation is, once again, these ideas of loving our neighbor and loving and obeying the authorities over us.

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And those things are true. We are to love our neighbor. We are to submit to the governing authorities over us.

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But first and foremost, we're to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And this is what

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I think has become problematic now when we're considering this issue about public and corporate worship.

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Is that in the equation is what I'm asking. And I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is.

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I don't want to sit there and say my fellow pastors and all these other national leaders,

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I'm not saying they haven't considered it, but it's not in their communication. And that's what concerns me.

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And first of all, I also want to say, too, I'm not wiser than these other men. I'm not more spiritually mature than these other men.

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I'm not more experienced than these other men. I'm not seeking to have preeminence over these men.

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I don't want to be a diatrophist. But, no, I am raising the conscience of the church here.

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And I'm not saying this to cause discord or strife, but I want us to properly and biblically approach this issue and, once again, not do it at the expense of not properly worshiping

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God. This is what this is all about. Our life is about God.

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We're here to worship and serve God. Loving our neighbor is an outward expression of that.

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So let's not lose sight of worshiping and serving God. Amen. I do agree with that.

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And, of course, obeying God is a part of giving

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Him praise, honor, and glory. And obeying Him often involves how we do treat our neighbors.

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Right. Yeah. Obviously, that is included in the Decalogue, how we treat our neighbors.

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So the thing that is clear to me, though, that although I and many people, if not most, with whom

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I agree, especially on the specific text

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I read earlier from Hebrews 10, in fact, let me read more of the context of that.

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I'm going to go back to verse 23. Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

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And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as it is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

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Now, the consensus that I've heard from the people I highly revere and know very well, not to say that I don't highly revere you or know you very well, but most of the pastors that I know and theologians would say that if the elders that God has ordained over a church consider it best for not only the safety of the congregation, but of the surrounding community, that they would for a time, a season, suspend public gatherings, that the individuals in the congregation obeying that and submitting to that are not in sin because they are following what they believe to be the wise judgment of their elders, and they are submitting to their elders as the

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Bible commands. Now, obviously, we're not to submit to our elders if they're telling us to sin.

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No, right, exactly. I wouldn't take that position either. That's what I'm saying. I'm not calling these elders sinful in any way.

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And I recognize there can be very pressing circumstances where pastors have to look out for the best interests of their particular congregations.

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And you probably remember from my correspondence, I helped a pastor preach in a small mission church in Brooklyn, and the composition of that church is primarily elderly people and infirm people.

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And so that's a situation where I wholeheartedly understood why the elders of that church said, you know, this is not for their physical good right now.

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However, they also took into account we still have to minister to them, reach out to them. And so they were still upholding the biblical principles of assembling and meeting together, because when we see these verses in the

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Scripture, it's clear, not everyone can providentially be in church. I fully recognize that.

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We cannot always providentially be in church. But then the Scriptures are clear, though, if someone can't providentially be in church, it is up to the elders then to reach out to them and gather with them where they're at, be where they're at.

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And once again, I've seen most elders take that upon themselves. And so, once again, I'm not criticizing some of these particular decisions in any way.

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And we're going to go to our first break right now, if you have a question for Dave Korsen. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you disagree with your own pastor over this issue, or you disagree with your congregation, or perhaps you're even a pastor, and you disagree with your fellow elders, the majority of your congregation, your denomination, things like that would definitely lend themselves to wanting to remain anonymous.

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But, if it's a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the

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Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

35:02

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

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Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with, or switching to, the

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NASB. I'm author Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Dan LeBennick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station, New York, and the

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Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reform Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

38:11

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

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Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen. If you just tuned us in today, our guest for the full two hours is a dear friend of mine for many years, going back decades, actually,

40:32

David Corson. Dave is an administrative law judge and ordained minister, and we are addressing voluntary versus mandatory restrictions on public gatherings and reflections upon Hebrews chapter 10, verse 25.

40:48

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

40:53

And before I go any further with my own questions, I do have some listener questions that I will begin the show with here.

41:04

We have Michael in Princeton, New Jersey, who says, first of all, he has a quote from George Burns, since you mentioned

41:15

George Burns earlier. If I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself.

41:26

Well, Michael says, hello Dave. As both a judge of the law and a minister, how would you respond to a pastor who not only refuses to tell his congregation to refrain from meeting when the government has a call for a quarantine, but also attacks other pastors through various media, accusing them of bowing to authority when they should be standing firm for what they see as a biblical principle?

41:51

Please address from both points of view, legal and biblical. I have already seen

41:56

Dr. John MacArthur accused of this. I imagine there are others. I guess what he means is accused of bowing down to Caesar or something, not where he's calling other pastors as being wimps.

42:17

But anyway. Maybe to answer that second part first, no, I think that is totally unbiblical, to attack another pastor about whatever decisions they may have made for their particular congregation, for their particular circumstances, because we don't know all their circumstances, and we don't know what

42:35

God's providential, sovereign hand is doing in all those circumstances. So to answer that part, no, we should not attack another pastor, and second guess his conscience.

42:48

Now in terms of, too, and I think it's also unfair to say that a pastor is bowing down to Caesar. But by my email, by my correspondence, people have, you know,

42:59

I've been from both sides, I've been accused of being a statist, and I've also been accused of, you know, being uncaring and unloving.

43:05

So I've, again, typical lawyer, you get attacked from both sides. But so this idea is, and I think to really clarify the issue, and this is what

43:15

I'm asking all pastors to do, all church leaders to do, I think we do need to distinguish the issue between what is of Caesar and what is of God.

43:26

That distinction is clearly there in the Scripture. And no, I'm of the firm belief

43:32

Caesar has the right to shut down the public venues for the purposes of maintaining public safety.

43:41

They do have the right to do that. And once again, see, we have to understand government from a biblical perspective, not from a political philosophical perspective, and not from, you know, any sort of, in fact,

43:58

I'm going to just come out and say it. We should, you know, I think Christians have tried to equate political philosophy with biblical truth, and that's dangerous.

44:08

Christianity is, let me say this, you know, capitalism is not the equivalency of Christianity.

44:16

Communism is not the equivalency of Christianity. Anarchy is not the equivalence of biblical

44:23

Christianity. Totalitarianism is not the biblical equivalent of Christianity.

44:29

Christianity transcends all these concepts, all these political philosophies. And first and foremost,

44:36

Christ rules and reigns over this world, and he rules in righteousness. Man's philosophies fall far short of Christ's word, his truth, and his righteousness.

44:46

And that's where we always have to start first. And the scriptures, I do agree with many of my brethren who are stressing the importance of we need to submit to the authority.

44:56

Why? Because they're the authority God placed over us, and if we're rejecting their authority, we're rejecting the authority of God.

45:04

And so it is very right that, once again, that has nothing to do with your view on whether you should be a

45:10

Republican, a Democrat, or, like I said, an anarchist or a totalitarian. No, God has made it very clear.

45:17

He established civil government, and it's for the promotion of good, and it's for the restraint of evil.

45:23

So it plays a significant part and role. And, once again, that's addressing the issue of what

45:30

God in his grace, what God in his goodness has established to keep the world going while he saves and sanctifies himself a people.

45:39

It is a means of grace that he establishes civil government to refrain the evil in this world and to protect the

45:46

Church and for the Church to go forward. So when God is telling us, once again, God was speaking to his apostles, both

45:54

Paul and Peter, and he was saying this in the midst of a totalitarian state. The emperor of Rome was the ruler of the world.

46:03

It was not a democracy. It wasn't even a republic. Rome used to be a republic. But then when

46:09

Arcadian, you know, took power after his uncle had been assassinated and he became the first emperor of Rome, Caesar Augustus, you know, he took over the

46:19

Roman Empire. Everyone had to listen to him now. And so when Paul and Peter are writing these things, when

46:26

Christ is speaking, let's go back even earlier, when Christ was speaking, it's in the context of a totalitarian state by a going ruler.

46:36

And once again, Christ told us to render unto Caesars what Caesars. Paul and Peter told us to respect and honor the authorities over us within the context of them being appointed by God to maintain civil order.

46:51

It is part of God's plan and purpose. But once again, there's a greater context, as Christ goes on and says.

46:58

But you render unto God what's God's. And God is the ultimate ruler. And these men are in place by God's purposes.

47:06

And once again, if these rulers are going contrary to the word of God, then no, then we have to obey

47:14

God before we obey man. Now let me get some clarification just so our listeners get more of an idea where you're coming from.

47:25

Do you believe that the church, barring something like a fire or a so -called natural catastrophe, or something as serious as the

47:44

Black Plague, something that was far more deadly than what we are witnessing, are you saying that barring something like that, the church, in order to truly be obedient to God, must gather on the

48:00

Lord's Day? Or are you just saying that it shouldn't be a prolonged prohibition from public gathering?

48:07

Yeah, good question. And once again, that is something, if it is something of such a natural disaster, your church gets blown down by a tornado.

48:16

And look how many that have happened throughout our history. Especially down south, if you're in tornado country, or out to the

48:24

Midwest, or down south, if you're in a hurricane area, if you're in a cyclone area, if there's some great natural disaster and your church is wiped out, no, you obviously can't go to that particular location and worship

48:39

God. But I still think you're expected to worship God with whatever providential means.

48:44

Even in your home? Provide you with, yeah. And so, yeah, it's something where you have to separate and rightly look at all these issues.

48:55

So, no, I'm not saying that there aren't providential circumstances where you're not physically able to necessarily meet, or you may not be able to meet, as you're saying, for a period of time.

49:08

But you should take whatever means available to you to worship God within the means that he provides for you.

49:14

Once again, God's providence is key here, and it has to factor in. That's the real question for us here.

49:21

Are we providentially prohibited from worshiping and meeting? That's the real question.

49:26

You're saying during the coronavirus, are we really, is it deadly and serious enough where we would have to prohibit our fellow congregants from gathering?

49:39

For some individuals, it may be. And like I said, even the churches I know that have still chosen to meet, they've actually counseled and advised those who are clearly vulnerable, and we have some knowing understanding that they are vulnerable to this disease, or we know they've come into contact with this disease.

49:58

In those cases, those churches have rightly said, said, no, please, we're asking you to, until you're back to health, or until this is passed by, yeah, please take the time to stay home now.

50:13

We don't want to unnecessarily risk these matters, you know, and bring harm to anyone in that regard.

50:22

But once again, we have to be very, very careful about that, because when

50:28

God gives us these prescriptions of saying, you know, you need to meet, once again, when you look at, you've read through Hebrews 10, that's in the context of where the church was being challenged.

50:40

They were facing economic and political and persecution and all sorts of threats to their lives and to their livelihood.

50:48

And they're being told, no, you still keep meeting. Now, they have to be careful how they logistically work that out.

50:54

That's always a question for the church. I heard a pastor this morning saying, hey, look at all of our brethren overseas, you know, who've been in persecuted churches.

51:01

You know, they can't necessarily meet openly and publicly, and they have to meet, but they're still meeting with whatever means that God provides them, and with whatever situation that they have.

51:12

So I agree. How this plays out, how this plays out about how we meet, is going to be up to individual circumstances and individual churches' lives.

51:24

But we should not disregard the meeting of the fellowship or just say this is just something temporary.

51:32

That's my concern. And once again, to address this point that you brought up and I think came up in the question as well, it's this attitude that this is just something temporal, and so we can make these adjustments here and now, and it's not that big of a deal.

51:45

I'm here to tell you right here and now, this is not just something temporal. You can even hear it in our news media.

51:56

You can hear it from the government leaders. You can hear it from corporate America. You can hear it by, you know, look what's going on here.

52:04

Yes, even somebody... It's about a date of April 30th, by the way. I think that's the new date now by President Trump.

52:10

Right. You go to some other states, they're saying June 1st or whatever, but here's the thing. It's not about the date, and it's not about when we see the coronavirus flatten out.

52:20

This plague, this tribulation, whatever you want to call it, this cataclysmic event, whatever you want to call it, has already changed our lives forever.

52:31

Right. It's already brought about long -term consequences. And even somebody that we both know,

52:39

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is very sober -minded and level -headed and balanced when it comes to this area, and he's not known to be a conspiracy theorist, but he has rightly said that we are already seeing hints coming from the mouths of politicians that they would like nothing more than to flex their muscles and shut down houses of worship, and I'm sure in some of their minds, permanently.

53:17

And in fact, it was interesting how Dr. White mentioned when the threat of longer prohibitions for public worship gatherings was made by one politician in particular.

53:35

He never mentioned mosques. He only mentioned churches and synagogues. But anyway, we have to go to our midway break right now.

53:46

And by the way, I will get to your question momentarily. Lou in Sayville, Long Island.

53:53

In fact, let me read Lou's question before we go to the midway break, and you can answer it when we return.

54:01

Lou in Sayville, Long Island, New York says, Hello Dave and Chris. I'm not a pastor or elder of a church, and I realize this is not an easy decision for them to make.

54:11

These are somewhat unprecedented times, and pastors and elders need our support and submission and respect.

54:21

But a question would be, why do you think churches are not endeavoring to have more smaller services, keeping social distance still, and taking all precautions?

54:32

For instance, a church of 300, let's say, could possibly have four services, two on Sunday, two on Saturday.

54:39

Well, obviously there would be a difference of opinion on the Sabbath there. And so 75 congregants could come to each service.

54:46

Probably many congregants will not come anyway, and the church will self -limit. And people there that are elderly or compromised would be encouraged to stay at home.

54:57

He has a second question that we'll get to when we return. So, if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

55:07

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we're going to be back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Dave Corson. Before we return to Dave Corson, who is an administrative law judge and ordained minister, and our topic today is

01:05:36

Voluntary vs. Mandatory Restrictions on Public Gatherings and Reflections upon Hebrews 10 .25.

01:05:44

Before I return to that discussion, let me just give you a couple of important announcements. So far, we are still going to be conducting, barring anything unforeseen in regard to the coronavirus or other circumstance, we are still going to be having our next spring

01:06:02

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon on Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m.

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to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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That's the first time we've ever had it at the Bongiorno Conference Center. Also, for the very first time,

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I'm so thrilled that Dr. Conrad M. Bayway is going to be our guest speaker at the next

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon. We are so thrilled about that, as I said, barring any unforeseen reason, including the coronavirus scare that would prohibit us from having this meeting.

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But if you'd like to register, send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

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Please, just put pastor's luncheon in the subject line, and I will have you registered immediately for free.

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This is a free event. Not only will you be hearing Dr. Conrad M. Bayway preach for free, not only will you be fed a sumptuous lunch from Bongiorno Conference Center for free, but you'll also be leaving with a heavy sack of brand new books selected by me personally that have been donated by publishers, major Christian publishers, all over the

01:07:19

United States and the United Kingdom. And this is all for free, and this is all because of my precious late wife

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Julie, back in the 1990s, coming up with the idea. And we began these events in the 1990s and continued them annually.

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It used to be a once -a -year luncheon. Now I'm doing it twice a year, in the winter and the spring.

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And I do so now that she has gone home to be with Christ for eternity.

01:07:49

I do so in her tribute and her honor and memory. And I hope that you could come if you are a man in ministry leadership.

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Whether you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, we hope that you can attend.

01:08:03

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. Also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please, we are in urgent need of your donations more than ever now because of the fact that two of my largest financial supporters had to postpone any further advertising and any further financial support for possibly two or three or more months because the coronavirus scare has seriously, negatively affected their businesses.

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01:12:44

As we continue our theme today Voluntary vs. Mandatory Restrictions on Public Gatherings and Reflections upon 10

01:12:52

Hebrews 10 verse 25 and going back to our question from our listener.

01:12:59

We had Lou in Sayville and I am right now looking. Here it is. The question as you may recall is he wants to know if it would not be better for churches to have smaller gatherings and he's probably not even going small enough because you could have even smaller gatherings in people's homes.

01:13:25

Two or three more gathered. He was saying 75 people. We could even have church home groups that don't exceed 10 people if you want to remain faithful to what the authorities are saying.

01:13:37

You could have 9 or 10 or actually 10 or less people in your home. So how do you respond to that?

01:13:46

I think once again within God's providence these are the type of things I think the church should be examining first before they just simply say we're not going to meet in worship because it is so vitally essential.

01:13:58

Use the operative word today. What's essential? It is so vitally essential for Christians to be able to come together and I think we can find other options of handling this within providence and once again taking into account certain public health concerns.

01:14:12

But how should I put this? We do have to deal with this issue of the essentialness of coming together and gathering together.

01:14:22

It's not a question of the numbers as much as it is an issue of are we coming together?

01:14:28

We have been commanded to come together. We've even come to where we are a body. Josh Beichus delivered a wonderful message this past Lord's Day over this very issue about the essentialness the we are a body of believers called together and we are here to build each other up in Christ and minister to one another in Jesus Christ.

01:14:47

The very nature of the church is for us to be together. Now once again this issue has come up well this is just temporary but how temporary is this?

01:14:57

Where do we draw the line? And I think this is the question more and more Christians, like I said I was the minority voice maybe a couple of weeks ago but now as this goes on I've seen other pastors come around they're asking the same questions that I was asking as well.

01:15:10

Where do you draw that line? This is the importance like I said we first have to be keeping to what

01:15:16

God has commanded us to do to not forsake the meeting of together and whatever means or capacity that he gives us because it is essential for us to partake of the means of grace.

01:15:27

It's essential for us to be under the ministry of the word. It's essential for us to be partaking of the Lord's table.

01:15:32

It's essential for us to be meeting with one another, encouraging each other, edifying each other. This is a necessity of the church.

01:15:40

It is essential. Yeah okay if I get the sniffles this weekend I don't show up for church, fine but I know

01:15:45

I better be back in church later in the week or I better, you know there may be things that keep me from going to church but that better not become my lifestyle.

01:15:54

That better not become my whole future as a Christian. It is vitally important that Christians come together.

01:16:02

This is where God has promised to come and meet with us with his Holy Spirit and strengthen us and lead us and apply his word to our lives and it's because God is a personal

01:16:11

God. He's a relational God and he's called us to be personal relations with one another.

01:16:16

Now once again for the time being we may be taking some of these other innovative steps. We may be using

01:16:22

Skype and Zoom and smaller groups and things like that but and that may once again for our particular circumstances work for a certain period of time but there's going to come a place where no we do need to be in each other's presence and we do need to encourage each other and like I said

01:16:39

I think the other factor that comes in here do we really see the big picture here? Do we see that this is

01:16:47

God's judgment here upon us as a people and as a church when God judges brings about judgment in the world it is the humble the righteous and it's the hard and the wicked so he's working in the hearts and lives of believers as much as he's working in the hearts and lives of the wicked and that's why we have to be very humble before God and we have to not lose sight of hey this is an overall judgment

01:17:11

God is going to end this virus when he decides to end this virus so we have to be faithful and obedient to what he's called us to do with whatever means he provides us to do in our day to day lives and that's why

01:17:25

I'm just saying let's not just totally dismiss this idea of meeting together and this is no big deal this is only a short period of time no, as we see this go on and as we be straight out and say listen

01:17:39

I do not see a repentant heart in our nation, in our society this is what

01:17:44

I meant before about saying that our world is changing and this is not just a temporal thing because you already hear our leaders, our businessmen always think that we can't let this happen again we have to prevent this from happening again no they're not saying hey

01:18:00

God please forgive me, God please show us mercy here, God please help us to be restored to you they still want to be in control they still want to run their own lives so we should not be surprised as a church this virus goes on for another year, who knows but then again what do we do then as the church are we supposed to forsake the means of grace that God calls us to carry out and live out like I said, we may need to be more innovative, we may need to take smaller groups maybe we do need to be on Skype for a year

01:18:33

I don't know, or Zoom for a year maybe that's the case, but I'm just saying let's not forsake meeting with each other let's find whatever means

01:18:40

God provides us yes and of course, every pastor worth his salt that I'm aware of reminds the congregation that there is something very spiritually and supernaturally unique about the saints gathered together that you are not you are not benefiting from sitting at home alone watching

01:19:05

Skype, or watching well you know yeah, I mean even the pastors like I said, even the pastors who have told me that we had to take these steps for our particular even they're saying it's not the same everyone recognizes that yeah and uh this is all the more reason why the church has to go to God in prayer a lot of what we are talking about involves what is the reaction of most biblically sound doctrinally faithful pastors what is going to be their reaction even if they are currently among those that are aggressively telling people to stay home what are they going to be saying if this continues for months and months and over a year is there going to be a strategy where we are going to start saying that the coronavirus seems to have dissipated it seems to be much safer to enter into the community and public freely, we've got to start gathering no matter what the government says right that's what

01:20:12

I'm saying I'm not trying to judge the hearts and the intentions of my fellow pastors, but these issues should have been communicated to the church hey listen we're doing this temporarily right now we'll see how the

01:20:22

Lord leads but we do need to get back together they need to be communicating that to their congregations the importance of this right and of course as I already hinted at earlier when

01:20:33

I was talking about James White when he was on a recent dividing line program quoting from a politician who was threatening longer and perhaps permanent bans of public gatherings we are living in a day and age when politicians and the government could use it as an excuse to shut churches down the fact that well this worked fairly well we got rid of the coronavirus by quarantining people let's permanently keep the churches from publicly gathering you never know that sounds insane but in this day and age

01:21:13

I wouldn't be all that shocked but anyway let me go to Lou in Saveville has a second question and it is do you think church leaders will be more inclined to endeavor to have smaller gatherings at this time if the quarantine continues that would be requiring of you the gift of prophecy

01:21:38

I think but let me rephrase the question and I hope you don't mind that Lou should perhaps churches who are mega churches and of course a reformed

01:21:58

Baptist church if there's 500 people there that's definitely a mega church for a reformed Baptist church according to Phil Johnson he has a worship service at Grace Community Church that's a separate gathering and I remember him on my show saying that it was like a small chapel of about 500 you realize

01:22:21

Phil that's a mega church if you're a reformed Baptist exactly but I remember my friend

01:22:28

I don't know if you remember him he's with the Lord for eternity now in heaven Dr.

01:22:34

Robert J. Cameron he was one of the few

01:22:39

African American pastors at the time of his ordination I think he said there was only like one or two others in the entire country in the

01:22:48

Orthodox Presbyterian Church and prior to that was the PCA but he didn't believe in large churches he believed that once a church expanded beyond the capacity for elders to be able to faithfully oversee the number of people under their authority that they had to he believed they were obligated to start planting other churches but does that concept sound like a good idea for you?

01:23:19

a lesson learned perhaps that perhaps I do I've always had concerns about the quote unquote the mega church

01:23:29

I remember like I said I've been in the church a long time I've seen all the trends, all the movements all the ups and downs and I remember there was a time in the early 1990's and this actually divided the church that I had once attended

01:23:45

I won't mention your name but it was the field of dreams church development program if we build it they will come this whole idea this whole focus of you need to be a mega church if you're really going to impact the world you need to show the world look at all these

01:24:03

Christians getting together that's always been a danger are you building a church just for the sake of having a church or are you following the biblical principles of going out and making disciples and discipleship being at the heart of your church ministry as opposed to being bigger and better than everybody else once again

01:24:23

I maybe should be careful about judging the motivations of certain pastors and things but I remember when this was such an emphasis you're not really a real church unless you're packing it out you have stadium capacity and like I said that is something

01:24:39

I'm not a prophet you're absolutely right I believe prophecy ended with the apostles but we now have the complete word of God but here's the thing

01:24:51

I'm not surprised if this is not the hand of God getting his church back to where his church should be there is a place of we have to remember

01:25:01

Christ's great commission his commission is not go out evangelize the world, leave everyone to Jesus that's not the great commission the great commission is to go out and make disciples yes part of that is to evangelize and share the gospel thank

01:25:18

God we have mass media thank God we have Facebook and Twitter and Skype and Youtube these are great ways of going out

01:25:27

I'm not against mass evangelism but that's not the primary call of the church the primary call of the church is to go out and make disciples yes you will meet someone you will share the gospel with them but church building and church planting is based on the idea of discipleship you're developing relationships with other people and you're showing them

01:25:46

Christ through the word and through your life and with their life and applying the word in your life and applying the word in their lives that's discipleship that's what

01:25:55

Christ did he taught his disciples so is that really conducive in a large megachurch

01:26:02

I think the churches do need to get back to this concept of hey you have an elder there is a practical matter they can only see so many people they can only disciple so many people deacons can only minister to so many people

01:26:15

I've always been of the view and I think it's my view that this is what's consistent with what we're being called to do in the church and this is the proper application of what we see what we're called to do as a church

01:26:26

I've always been of the view it's better to have ten small churches than one big church maybe this is

01:26:32

God once again accomplishing his purpose through that one of the things

01:26:38

I wanted to take advantage of while you are on because I don't have a lot of lawyers and judges on my show not by design it's just providential but I wanted to take advantage of the things that you know about the law now there are things as I was saying earlier right at the outset of the show that are confusing because we don't know when we hear a politician or when we hear a talking head on the news and the media when they start spouting that you can't gather more than ten people in public and things like that and like I told you before my friend calling me in a panic we're on lockdown and I'm like walking around outside with the traffic just normal as ever and I'm going to get coffee and all this and I'm getting food in take out places just as I always did how much of this that we are hearing is really legally binding and how much is it just strong advice or the preferences of the ones saying it like for instance are we allowed to gather legally publicly in ten or more people especially for weapons up until this point you were legally allowed to like I said we're now seeing ordinances being passed we see more aggressive government officials making it official law now you can't meet once again

01:28:07

I can speak for New York State, Governor Cuomo actually said we're asking the businesses to close, we're asking them to do this but when it came to churches he said no churches are still free to gather and meet we would recommend they not but you know we're not telling the churches they can't meet is this still?

01:28:30

what's that? is that still the case? as far as I know it is but it was really he said you know and even then there's a question see the courts have not gotten involved the legislatures have been silent you have all these governors and you know passing these executive orders what is the efficacy of those executive orders it hasn't been challenged yet because once again everyone is saying the greater good here is the public health so we understand

01:29:01

Governor Cuomo sending out an executive order saying shut down your businesses shut down your schools until we get a grip on this but when it came to the churches he was quick to say his policy people were quick to say we're not asking or telling the churches to close down we're suggesting they close down but they were very careful and very cautious and that has been so far the policy up to this point that I'm aware of now let me ask you a question many of us have heard about the notorious heretic

01:29:33

Rodney Howard Brown being arrested in Florida for refusing to obey the prohibition of public gathering now as much as I despise they did actually pass an actual resolution to that not just an executive order that there was legislative law that was passed that's my understanding and I could be wrong about that if you want more information please correct me but that's what

01:29:57

I'm trying to say we're now seeing a shift we're now seeing people being more explicit about the law and certain executive leaders taking these more drastic steps right well obviously as much as I despise

01:30:10

Rodney Howard Brown and everything he stands for I am concerned about the precedent being set by government and what

01:30:19

I'm curious about is I had previously thought and I guess

01:30:26

I was wrong that only martial law could be established before the freedom to assemble and the freedom to worship was postponed or restrained by the government now if you could tell our listeners what martial law is and then answer my question specifically about it and if you could do so after we come from our final break because we have to go to our final break and if you have a question send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:30:58

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors chrisarnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here

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The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.

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When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

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01:39:01

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That's every Friday on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, an update on the coronavirus pandemic with Joe Jackiewicz.

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Tomorrow we have Kurt Daniel on the show, very well known amongst Reformed Baptists.

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01:40:10

Before the break, I was telling you or asking you, I should say, to...

01:40:16

What's martial law? Yes, and this is in response to the fact that the United States Constitution has promised us that Congress shall make no respecting, shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people to peacefully assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

01:40:46

So the assembling and the freedom of religion is key here, and if you could, why would martial law...

01:40:59

What is it and when and why would it be used? To say right from the get -go, martial law trumps constitutional freedom.

01:41:07

The idea of martial law is that there's a national emergency and crisis that has to be addressed, and so the president and his executive powers can declare martial law.

01:41:18

What it means, martial means you use military force to enforce the president's executive orders.

01:41:24

That's basically what's happening. It has happened in our country in limited situations and for very short periods, probably the longest time it was imposed, and that was only imposed in certain jurisdictions, was

01:41:36

Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War. But yeah, the right of... he suspended civil liberties in certain...

01:41:42

especially, I mean, primarily, we know that he did that in the state of Maryland. The president, in times of emergency, can exercise martial law.

01:41:50

It means he's enforcing his orders by the use of military force. It's happened on a couple of other occasions. Same thing with the governor.

01:41:57

The governor can activate the National Guard for the same purposes, but basically civil liberties are suspended during the time of martial law for the purpose of the executive power to be able to address, you know, a particular need and crisis.

01:42:15

This actually goes back to Roman days. That was the whole idea. There was a time when dictator was a nice thing, was a good thing.

01:42:22

A dictator was appointed by the Senate to address a particular national crisis, and the president had been that, hey, once the crisis is over, that person relinquishes his dictatorial powers to address the crisis.

01:42:34

Usually it was a general appointed, hey, go out there and defeat our enemies to save the city of Rome. Then, fine, okay, you're back, and now we're back to the

01:42:41

Senate running everything. That's how it used to be, and once again, this is something that is supposed to be limited under time of national emergency.

01:42:50

By the grace of God, and we need to take this to heart as Christians, by the grace of God, we have not had a president yet abuse that power, but I'm here to first and foremost say that's the grace of God, and I actually have to commend both

01:43:06

President Trump and Governor Cuomo being very, very, how should

01:43:11

I say, cautious and careful. They have not jumped to that. I'm sorry, there are no compliments for Governor Cuomo on this show.

01:43:23

That is something that is restricted on my show, and that is my martial law.

01:43:32

So these are the things, I mean, my favorite story of martial law is actually Harry Truman, when the

01:43:38

National Railroads, when, actually this was before the nationalization of the railroads, but when railroads all went on strike,

01:43:46

Harry Truman declared martial law and had the federal troops take over the railroads. Of course, the strike ended, the railroads started running.

01:43:55

Of course, someone made a constitutional bill that said, hey, this is unconstitutional for Harry Truman to do this.

01:44:01

By the time he got to the Supreme Court, the strike was settled. The Supreme Court said, it's moot now. This has never really come up to any sort of constitutional scrutiny at any extent, because once again, we've had government leaders who have not abused it.

01:44:15

But once again, what happened, especially, like I said, I keep coming back to God's judgment on our culture and our society.

01:44:24

We don't know what can happen. So I'm not a doom and gloom guy. First of all, Christ has overcome this world, and he is overcoming this world.

01:44:32

He's returning again, and he reigns. So I'm not a doom and gloom guy. But we all have to deal realistically with our circumstances.

01:44:38

We do have to be aware of this. If God is going to bring such judgment, and then, you know, we as Christians, we have to ask some serious questions.

01:44:45

Do we defy the authority if the authorities are now preventing us from worshipping

01:44:50

God and doing it with the excuse, let's say, of saying, well, we have to end the coronavirus?

01:44:57

No, the worship of God. I'm sorry. No. Well, yeah, pun intended. Trump's. Trump's public health and government authority.

01:45:06

I still stand by that. Now, my main reason for having you define and explain martial law is why is it not required to have martial law to shut down constitutionally guaranteed freedoms like assembling and worshipping as we choose?

01:45:27

Like, for instance, with Rodney Howard Brown being arrested in Florida, you said that there was an update in the law there.

01:45:37

How could they do that constitutionally without martial law? That's not an exercise of martial law.

01:45:42

That's actually, like I said, the legislature of that particular jurisdiction passing a code.

01:45:49

Is that constitutional? And then having their local law enforcement enforce that law.

01:45:54

Is that constitutional? Martial law, specifically the military being put in use.

01:45:59

Okay, but my question is. An elected body making laws that we either agree or don't agree with, and then having the local law enforcement, civilian law enforcement, enforcing that law.

01:46:10

Is that constitutional, though? I don't think it is. That was my main point.

01:46:18

You know, as far as I'm concerned, my understanding of the Constitution, that that statute, that legislated past statute, is up for constitutional scrutiny.

01:46:31

I wouldn't be surprised if Jay Sekulow and ACLJ get involved with that. I hope that they wait for somebody else to do it.

01:46:39

Actually, like you said, defend Pastor Brown. I would rather them defend somebody else who got in trouble.

01:46:45

It's a noble individual. We don't agree with, and I don't agree with his outlandish, oh, God will protect us from, no, we have no guarantee that God will protect us from the coronavirus.

01:46:56

That's not the point. Okay, well, I have a question, I think it's probably the last question that we have time to read.

01:47:02

Right. Michael in Flemington, New Jersey, says, looking at the issue of following government edicts, it's most interesting to those skeptical of big government.

01:47:14

I'm also getting the sense that some folks don't think COVID -19 is all that dangerous. I believe the issue is more rightly about the

01:47:21

Sabbath and Pharisaical strictures. Matthew chapter 12, departing from there, he went into the synagogue and a man was there whose hand was withered, and they questioned

01:47:32

Jesus, asking, is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath so that they might accuse him?

01:47:39

And he said to them, what man is there among you who has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the

01:47:45

Sabbath? Will he not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep?

01:47:54

So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Elders have a response, and this is where the quote ends, elders have a responsibility to protect the flock of Christ, even if it is the

01:48:06

Lord's Day, the earthly good of folks is not set aside. I don't think you would disagree with that at all.

01:48:14

In this context, it is good for us. We should be protecting those of us who are infirmed and elderly.

01:48:20

We should be doing that. But, we are still to meet with the Lord. We are still to know the

01:48:26

Lord's blessing. We're not necessarily doing harm to one another, to the healthy and able body, by coming together and meeting.

01:48:33

Yes, the elderly and the infirmed, yes, we need to respect them and do good for them and take care of them.

01:48:38

We should be ministering to people on the Lord's Day. So, it is perfectly in keeping with the

01:48:45

Lord's Day for us to be saying to our elderly and our infirmed and being careful and taking certain health and sanitary precautions in terms of our worship.

01:48:54

That is perfectly appropriate. But, you are not to do that at the expense of stopping to worship

01:49:00

God. In fact, if we're not worshiping God in the proper way, we're actually doing more harm to the body.

01:49:05

We are not protecting their spiritual health. We're not protecting, and if we're not protecting their spiritual health, if we're not exhorting and encouraging and spurring one another on to worship

01:49:14

God and to build each other up in Christ, that is going to result in physical impairment and health.

01:49:20

So, it's not such an easy, slam -dunk decision here. I guess that's what has bothered me from the get -go here.

01:49:28

We're just looking in on specific passages of Scripture and not looking at the whole counsel of God here. That's what concerns me.

01:49:35

And like I said, I'm not trying to judge my fellow pastors, because they may have considered these things. They may have considered all these factors in their decisions of how they handled their churches, but I don't know if they're effectively communicating that all, the whole counsel of God to their churches.

01:49:50

That's a great question that was asked, you know, because yeah, there is a place for us to take care of those in need and protect those who are in need on this

01:49:58

Sabbath. But there's also a responsibility to protect the spiritual health. And if we are not looking out for the spiritual health of our churches, that is going to result in physical health.

01:50:07

I have to be direct here and say, I'm more concerned about people contracting the virus and succumbing to the virus by not going to the church, than I am concerned about them going to the church.

01:50:18

And of course, people losing their ability financially to provide for their home and church, because of this scare, the financial catastrophe facing this nation could be far worse than the coronavirus itself, as people have said, as people have said, the cure may be more deadly than the...

01:50:44

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. So I'm saying, once again, I'm saying be very cautious here and careful here.

01:50:50

And what I'm asking all of my listeners who are rightfully concerned about the health and well -being of not only their congregation, but the surrounding community, who are very much in favor of the current ban or at least strong suggestion to not assemble in groups of ten or more and public,

01:51:17

I'm just asking you to consider what are you going to be thinking and doing if this is still going on two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine months from now, a year from now, etc.

01:51:33

Exactly. That is what we all have to pray about. How do we respond? Right, exactly. Now, as far as you know, other than what occurred in Florida, are you aware of any laws that are allegedly trumping the

01:51:50

Constitution? Like, for instance, in Pennsylvania, my friend, as I keep repeating, said, oh, we're on lockdown.

01:51:56

What does that mean? Do you know what these things even mean? We're on lockdown. Yeah, and this came up this past weekend between Donald Trump and Governor Cuomo.

01:52:06

Donald Trump was saying, I'm considering quarantining New York. And even Andrew Cuomo, yeah,

01:52:12

Governor Cuomo is even saying, what does he mean by that? I mean, because right now, for all intents and purposes, New York City really is in a quarantine.

01:52:19

You walk down the streets in New York today, they're deserted. You know, you go on the Long Island Railroad, the trains are deserted.

01:52:26

I'm saying that relatively. Obviously, you'll still see people. Now, as your office is a judge... Not like it is. I mean, we've taken all sorts of efforts to, quote -unquote, quarantine this.

01:52:35

And as I said, I think rightfully so. I'm just saying we have to consider the exception, though, of being a holy nation, being a royal priesthood.

01:52:44

We are called to worship God. That activity is separate and apart from other secular activities. And that's why we have to be very careful about that before you stop doing that altogether.

01:52:54

Now, as your office is a judge... These questions are still... Our government leaders are still even asking these questions.

01:53:00

How far can we go? And like I said, to our God's grace, God's grace, people have been complying with, quote -unquote, executive orders and policy decisions.

01:53:10

We haven't come to the point of martial law, but is that changing?

01:53:16

Is that shifting? We better be careful about that. Like, again, once again, our friend out there in Florida.

01:53:22

Our friend? Not our friend. By the way, how...

01:53:30

I was being snarky. I hope you know that. What about your law offices, or should

01:53:36

I say your offices as an administrative law judge? Our whole schedule's been revamped.

01:53:42

We are considered essential. I'm essential on certain days. Not every day.

01:53:49

My wife, of course, is. I don't need you at all. But Governor Cuomo, on certain days, does consider me essential.

01:53:59

But our whole schedule, our whole staffing has dramatically changed. And that's had an impact on our culture, you know, how we rule people.

01:54:08

Even the government has slowed down in terms of how it addresses... And our government agencies are trying to figure out and deal with all these issues.

01:54:18

I mean, please pray for your government leaders, whether you agree with them politically or not. They are making some very tough decisions here as well, and they are trying to look out for the greater good of the people.

01:54:30

But yeah, we've had to make some major adjustments, even in terms of how we govern. We can't even govern effectively right now, or not.

01:54:38

Let's put it this way. We can't govern to the same level of efficacy, because people always question the efficacy of the government.

01:54:46

But it's even had a greater impact on how we're able to govern and to what extent and degree we're able to govern.

01:54:54

So our office staff, I don't even go in once or twice a week now. I'm only permitted to go in once or twice a week.

01:55:00

And in fact, when I was going on the Long Island Railroad the other day, I had my ticket ready and I had my government

01:55:05

ID ready, because they are now under what's called essential employee train schedules. I was actually concerned that a conductor or an

01:55:13

MTA cop actually asked me, where's your ID? How is your job essential? I have another friend, same thing.

01:55:18

He actually got a letter from his boss, just in case. But yeah, our society right now, once again,

01:55:25

I think it's the grace of God that we haven't gotten to a full panic mode here where the government has had to impose martial law, things like that.

01:55:33

And that's all the more reason why we need to be praying and all the more reason why we need to be worshiping God, you know, and humbling ourselves before God and seeking

01:55:41

His forgiveness. Now, what are the ways that your average citizen, when he hears something on the news, that there's a lockdown, there is a shutdown, there's this and that, how do they find out, wait a minute, is this politician or talking head in the news just giving their preference, their strong advice, their even threatening advice, or even is this person, this politician, violating our constitutional freedom, how do they find out what's going on, really?

01:56:28

I mean, whether it's just, whether it's as the theme of our show is, voluntary or mandatory?

01:56:36

How do they find that out? Yeah, exactly. Do it like New Yorkers for Constitutional Freedom, call up the governor's office and get the policy.

01:56:45

That's why I would encourage your pastors to do that. But yeah, get a clear cut. What is, in fact, like I said,

01:56:51

I'm speaking as to what I knew of last week, but maybe it is time to call up Governor Cuomo's office, and maybe it is time to call up the

01:56:57

CDC. Are you going to get a knowledgeable person answering the phone? Oh yeah, yeah, you'll get some, you won't get

01:57:05

Governor Cuomo. I know, but you will get, you know, government officials.

01:57:10

But don't be surprised, too, that you don't hear some of these government officials saying, we're still not sure.

01:57:18

We're still taking it day by day. And honestly, our government agencies are acting on a day by day basis.

01:57:25

Our governments are, they're still not sure what to do about this. They're still trying to figure things out.

01:57:32

So unless they say specifically, and you do have to listen to the news conferences, you do have to see what is specifically being said.

01:57:40

There are certain things where government executives have said, this is what we will enforce.

01:57:46

For example, price gouging. You know, Governor Cuomo said that from the beginning. If you're doing anything to gouge prices now to take advantage of this situation, we will prosecute those businesses.

01:57:59

So be listening to what's actually being said in these press conferences and these policy decisions.

01:58:07

And they have to be asked. And the churches need to be asking these questions. They do need to be calling up the governor's office, the mayor's office, the county executive's office.

01:58:17

Get a clarification on that. You can do that. Okay. Well, we are out of time.

01:58:22

And I want to thank every one of our listeners who submitted questions because they are all first -time questioners.

01:58:31

And they are all going to receive, if they give me their mailing addresses, a free copy of the

01:58:36

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

01:58:43

New England Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping that out to you free of charge.

01:58:50

So please, if you wrote in a question today, give me your full mailing address and those

01:58:56

Bibles will be shipped out to you. Also, I wanted to tell Mike in Flemington, New Jersey, he submitted another question.

01:59:04

I will even ask your question again with the addition, the extra question.

01:59:11

I will submit that to Joe Jackowitz on Friday live during my interview with Joe Jackowitz when he is going to be doing his coronavirus update.

01:59:20

In fact, if you could remind me and email me again, Michael, that would be great, just so I don't forget.

01:59:26

And I want to thank you so much, Dave Korsen. It's been a joy. I look forward to your return to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. It's been far too long.

01:59:33

I want to thank everybody who listened. Oh, by the way, and send my love to your lovely bride,

01:59:40

Jill. Will do. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater