John MacArthur's Lavish Lifestyle? An Interview With Phil Johnson

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today. I want to thank you very much for watching this video and I do apologize for the rather drab surroundings here.

But I'm recording this in a hotel room in Columbia, South Carolina. I'm preaching at Covenant Baptist Church just outside of Columbia pastored by Charles Swan if you happen to be living in this neck of the woods and Are looking for a good doctrinally sound Church to call your church home.

I would highly commend it to you. Very very good church. Very doctrinally sound and Pastor Charles It's just a wonderful great great guy. So on to the subject matter at hand in the last several weeks there has been a lot of discussion online About John MacArthur's wealth and this is largely Resultant from a from an article that Julie Royce wrote and in this article she portrays John MacArthur's lifestyle as one of opulence and she said it's really no different between there's no difference between John MacArthur's lifestyle and the lifestyle of the prosperity preachers whom he Criticizes and other well-known and vocal critics of John MacArthur have taken this and run with it and they're plastering it all over social media and calling John MacArthur a Hypocrite and all of that kind of stuff.

And and so I saw all this and I thought, you know I'm just gonna I'm gonna contact Phil Johnson and see if he would like to discuss some of these things. And so I did and he was he was actually very eager to do so.

He said yeah, absolutely. And so I'm gonna ask him about all this stuff in the article. I'm gonna ask him if these things are true or if they are Distortions and I tell you I learned a lot just in doing this interview with Phil I did not have any question about John MacArthur's character or integrity.

But I think when when by the end of this interview, I really want Proverbs 1817 to ring loudly in your mind in your heart in your mind the first to plead his case seems right until Another comes along and examines him.

So Phil's gonna shed a lot of light on these issues and we're not only gonna talk about, you know, John MacArthur's supposed lavish lifestyle and Nepotism and board members, you know, his board is stacked with family members and all that kind of stuff.

I'm also gonna ask him about the mark of the beast that's a another thing that I get frequently asked about and and also the Issue over whether or not he was really in Memphis, Tennessee when Martin Luther King was assassinated and that Controversy that sprung up a couple years ago now and so so we're gonna cover a lot of territory here.

And I think you will find this interview very helpful. So I know that I did All right, dear ones without any further delay. Here is Phil Johnson. Phil brother thank you so very much for joining me for this interview and I really appreciate you taking your time and I'm doing this just to to give you an opportunity to answer some of these questions that have been floating out there that largely come from a recent article by Julie Roy's in which she alleges that MacArthur John MacArthur is paid this exorbitant salary.

Because from his part-time work at GTY and then that's in addition to What he earns from the church or the Master's Seminary, of course he's not in the he's no longer the president that but and The gist of our article is that even though John MacArthur undeniably? teaches against the prosperity message that his lifestyle is pretty much one in the same with the prosperity preachers, so You know this article has been picked up by a number of John's Critics and things like that.

So take it away Phil. What would you have to say some to some of what she alleges?

Yeah, first of all, I have deliberately not answered these questions online because I don't want to drag out a Bunch of questions that actually better would have been directed specifically to our ministry by individuals who who really have a legitimate reason for asking.

When.

When these questions came in from someone, you know pretending to be a Investigative reporter who already had a long track record of trying to torpedo John MacArthur's reputation I refuse to answer him and I'm not gonna give her publicity.

By responding to you know people who who are championing her cause or going along with that or whatever. But I'm happy to answer the questions and for you. I'll even answer him on a podcast. So I appreciate.

But as to the as to the question you raised about John MacArthur's lifestyle I think it's significant and notable that no one who actually knows him and no one who has ever been to his house or or Spent time with him on any significant level.

No one has ever accused him of living a lavish millionaires lifestyle. I think that was one of the criticisms that came from a video that that you had Encouraged me to watch just because it is so bizarre and over-the-top.

This guy was exaggerating everything he'd read in Some of the online articles and and that was the terminology he used. John MacArthur lives a lavish millionaires lifestyle.

And just for fun if you don't mind Phil tell. Tell me what you tell us what you just told me about. What he said about Austin Duncan.

He's trying to prove that. That nepotism is a rife problem at Grace Church that all you know. Lots of people hire their kids on the staff at Grace Church.

Here's where it starts getting interesting. Pay attention. A family affair. The nepotism you need to understand in the mega church world is. It's almost unheard of that. There isn't nepotism. Let's put it that way.

The pastor's children are employed by the church and they're usually in a prominent position. They're usually waiting to take over the reins. It happens at Grace Community Church, not only with John MacArthur's sons, but with friends of his.

Every word of what you just said was wrong.

The truth is not one of John MacArthur's kids is on staff at Grace Church. Not one. The truth is not one of John MacArthur's kids is on staff at Grace Church. Not one. And. The example he gave was that.

Another example, he gave. John even hires his friends kids. Austin Duncan is the son of Ligon Duncan.

I believe Austin Duncan is an elder there and his father is Ligon Duncan a longtime friend of John MacArthur. It's a family affair and it's a. If you're friends, you're gonna be Promoted and.

Into some high position. Well, that's that's the most bizarre accusation I've ever heard. As far as I know Austin Duncan is not at all related to Ligon Duncan. I know Ligon Duncan well enough to know that if anybody accused him of that he would he would disown Austin.

Yeah, I'm kidding about that of course, but they're not related yeah.

Well, yeah, it goes to some of the shoddy Reporting and just carelessness with with these facts. So.

Yeah, yeah, there's a it seems to be a motive to exaggerate and make it sound as bad as possible. This guy listed a bunch of my misdeeds and and Each time he he mentioned it he would say and there may be even more I don't know, you know, or maybe he's done something illegal.

In fact, he seemed to have this was a stained theme in his video that he he seemed to believe that I'm guilty of some felony and that The the feds are on my tail. It's only a matter of time till I get arrested for some crime or corruption that I'm guilty of.

It's that sort of rhetoric that I don't need to answer and I actually literally have a policy of Generally not paying attention to it sometimes. You know my flesh gets the better of me and I'll fire off a Tweet in response and it always reminds me not to do that because then all the all these angry critics crawl out like little cockroaches and and see what they can do the other night they were.

They there was this sustained campaign of about I don't know eight or nine people Who were wanting to say that Grace Church is trying to cover something up. Because no announcement about the postponement of our Shepherds conference was made on the on last year's Shepherds conference Twitter feed it's a Twitter feed that I think has had three posts made to it Since last year's conference was over.

Nobody's keeping it up. But because the announcement of the cancellation which went viral on Friday. But it wasn't it wasn't noted on that one Twitter account and when I pointed out That's a dead Twitter account hasn't been posted on you know since last October.

I think All these people angrily said no you're trying to cover something up, and they were just certain that something Untoward is going on and it's that sort of Cynical purposeful skepticism that I just refuse to Keep answering acknowledging and whatever.

I'm happy to point it out for you, but But I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna play Ping-pong back and forth with people who have that kind of motive so right yeah.

One of the points in the article Phil was that? And I've heard you address this, but so all of our listeners can see it and viewers this first edition King James Bible that was given to MacArthur and this you know valued at I don't even know how much couple hundred thousand dollars or something like that and that's evidence of John MacArthur's greed and lavish lifestyle, what would you what would you say to that point?

Well, he's not very he's not a very good Miser if greed is his motive. Motivation because he turned around and gave it away. He put it in the seminary's rare book collection.

And.

Somebody somebody saw that and said yeah, but he took a tax deduction for that. Yeah, well. He deducted the amount that he was charged for the gift in the first place because that's right you give Someone a gift like that.

They have to report it on their taxes, so it was a wash nobody made any money on it. But it adds a rare an important Bible to the seminary's collection, so. Yeah, the people who actually donated the money for it.

I had no complaint about it. That's that's what they wanted to do so so get it, and you know that shows up on a on the 990 for that year and Muckrakers pull that out and try to make it sound like something really awful is going on, but I'd like to point out that You know every five years or so we we have some kind of celebration for the for the milestone that John MacArthur has reached he's been at Grace Church for 52 years and That is extremely rare these days, and I don't know of another pastor in the past 200 years that has Been at the same pulpit for that long and preached through every single verse in the New Testament produced a commentary on every single verse in the New Testament, and We don't send him on luxury vacations or or you know buy him Luxury items or anything like that give him a rare Bible.

And he gives it away and people treat that as if that's proof that he is a greed monger. I just think that the fact that someone wants to make that into an evil deed. Just shows that their motives can't possibly be pure what what possible good could come out of trying to trying to basically ruin the reputation and disqualify someone who's been faithfully in the same ministry for 52 years has never had a taint of Scandal attached to his name, and now you have to drum up an artificial scandal.

Why so that some woman can feel like she's you know bumped off her next victim.

Yeah.

It's it's irritating. Yeah.

No doubt and I'm often accused of being I think to use This gentleman's name which I won't name him because I don't want to drive any traffic to him. But the same one that said that Austin Duncan is Ligon Duncan's son.

You know he often calls me a sycophant for for John MacArthur. And there's a big difference between being a sycophant and and being appreciative of a man's ministry. Who. And Phil I've told you this before, but I've by God's grace I've preached all around the world and I have yet to go anywhere where I do not see the impact of The good fruit that is being born from MacArthur's ministry.

And grace to you and grace community church in general.

Yeah, I think most people know that Justin's another reason I don't feel compelled to answer every single nasty tweet that people at me with. Right I think you know scripture is pretty clear that you know a teacher by his fruits.

And I don't see how anyone can gain say the actual fruit of John MacArthur's ministry. So or why they would want to even but right you there you have it.

And I would encourage anybody to look at the fruit. That's born from John MacArthur's ministry and compare that to the Fruit or lack thereof to a lot of his critics, and there's no comparison. Not at all yeah.

But.

Speaking of scandal some of these folks that are attacking MacArthur have tried to draw comparisons between The board at grace to you and the board of Ravi Zacharias international ministries and so. Speak to that for us.

What would you yeah?

I mean, that's a really unsavory thing to do while Ravi's ministry is in in the news for Apparently a lot of secret sexual sins that have come out. I I've commented on Ravi before mainly to say I don't follow his ministry.

I didn't. I didn't particularly appreciate his approach to Apologetics. I always thought he was Too heavy on philosophy and and not into the word enough in the way. He did apologetics, so We never had any kind of partnership with him.

As far as I know John MacArthur never Endorsed any of his books or anything about it. There was no hostility there, but we just didn't intersect because.

We are.

Philosophies of ministry really pointed in different directions. But as these charges is against him come out and and and it seems like they are more than Charges that there's ample evidence there at least to say he's not above reproach and in an area that Involves you know these sexual abuse of women and all of that to try to draw some tenuous connection between that and John MacArthur because of the fact that one of John's sons is on our board again.

That's that's somebody reaching for a scandal that frankly isn't there and it's the sort of thing that Really people ought to be ashamed to even pay any heed to the facts of our board are there is one family member on the greatest you board John's eldest son and and John himself.

And we want to keep it that way for the simple fact that John at age 80 is probably not going to be here in 30 years and So we want the future of grace to you, which is uniquely The ministry of John MacArthur it's we exist in our purpose statement it even says this exists to expand the scope of John MacArthur's teaching ministry through various means of mass media and John's teaching because of how it is.

He doesn't exegete pop culture or or make references to current news events things like that he just opens the word and teaches and because of that his ministry is timeless in the sense that you can listen to a John MacArthur tape from 1973 and it's just as relevant today as it was then which means in all likelihood It's going to be just as powerful and just as relevant in another 40 years.

So.

We expect to continue to broadcast and distribute John MacArthur's teaching long after I'm gone from the scene. And we want to make sure that someone in John's family who has the family's best interests at heart Still has a hand in the ministry.

I think the worst thing it could happen would be What has happened to other?

Legacy.

Ministries ministries that were on the radio for 40 50 years. But when their key figure passed on and they replaced him with somebody else The new people changed the whole character and thrust of the ministry and we don't want that to happen with grace to you.

So we have we have made it a point to keep at least one member of John's family on the board at all times. At one point two of his sons were on the board Mark and Matt right now. It's Matt and We intend to keep it that way we are.

Our board is consists of mostly disinterested parties meaning not that they're uninterested, but they have no Personal interest in any of the finances or whatever at grace to you. I'm not a disinterested person because I'm an employee.

Matt's not a disinterested person because he's related to John, but the rest of our board members are Businessmen and church leaders from elsewhere or who have no vested interest in grace to you and they make the Financial decisions that govern things like my salary.

I have a son who works here and they even set his salary I don't have a voice in. The same thing is true with anyone who's related to John. So we follow all of those guidelines that are set up by the ECFA and we follow them faithfully all the way down.

So.

We're as accountable as we can reasonably be. I'm not going to send out a list of all of our employees salaries. So but other than that our financial reports are available to any donor who asks for them.

I'm not going to put them on Twitter and I'm not going to give them to an investigative reporter. But if a person is a has a legitimate interest in Seeing the financial reports of grace to you. They can write to us and we'll send it to him.

But I should say also I think common sense ought to tell people that That that is the appropriate way to ask these sorts of questions if you have even a even a nagging concern. Maybe it's really even none of your business.

But okay. You you wonder or you're thinking of donating to a ministry and you want to find out The character of the ministry. The proper way to ask that question is to write to them for their information.

Right and see what they send you. And if it's if it's trustworthy and reliable questions answered stirring up a controversy with innuendo and Suppositions on Twitter or in a so-called investigative news article that that's making speculations about people salaries and things like that that's totally inappropriate.

And and you know The reason I refuse to respond to it is I don't think it deserves the sort of respect that would get a response.

Right indeed, I was really glad you said that about John's oldest son on the board and his his role there. I think that's very very helpful and and makes perfect sense. And so just in listening to you.

This is really a Proverbs 18 17 kind of a thing.

Yeah, let let me say one other thing about that too because if you look at the list of our officers He's the treasurer and has been for a while. It's a simple reason for that and it has to do with geography.

He's the one who's close by who can sign checks and do things like that when it needs to be done and so he serves as a treasurer, which would be a Logistical nightmare if one of our board members from say Atlanta was our treasurer.

Getting things signed in a timely way would be a pretty difficult thing. So but nothing is done secretly nothing nothing people in the office do is Hidden from the board and nothing the board does that needs to be made public is Secret even from our donors.

So yeah.

And the same kind of dynamic is at work with Corey Welch because I know that was another point in the article. Corey is John's son-in-law. That's right. I should address that too because that comes up a lot.

He he has a video production company located not far from here. I've never actually been to his office. So I don't know exactly how far away is but he's in the neighborhood here. And of course, he's John's son-in-law.

And so he was one of the people who bid we took bids on. And we we review these on a semi regular basis not every year. But frequently we'll review the costs and take bids for the video work that we do.

Television is a sort of recent addition to our ministry. We decided to go on television because NRB TV started a channel on DirecTV and offered us time at no cost and it was Ligon Duncan's brother actually who worked for Ligonier at the time.

Who came out to meet with me and said you you need to be on television grace to you needs to be on television. I said, you know, we don't even videotape John and he was like shame on you, you know and I know what he meant because it has always irritated me that nobody thought to ever to Record Charles Spurgeon's voice.

We don't have a single recording of what Spurgeon sounded like because nobody thought to do it although the technology existed there are tapes of. There's a there's a famous recording of Dio Moody reading the Beatitudes.

It's fascinating to listen to it's full of static and stuff like that but nobody did that with Spurgeon and what a loss to history and and I thought you know people are gonna be cursing me in Perpetuity if we don't get as much of John on video as possible.

So about a decade ago I don't remember the exact year, but it's been probably more than a decade. Maybe even as much as 15 years ago. We started videotaping every time John spoke at Grace Church and at first we tried to do it in-house we bought Equipment and Corey was the one we hired at the time.

He was a salaried employee on our staff to do video after a year or two. We we decided no, we're gonna bid.

The.

Contract out and use an outside company and Corey had started a video production doing it on the side so he said can I bid for the contract as well. And we said of course so he did and his bid was competitive and The added value.

I mean he does great work and the video quality of things we produce you can see for yourself.

But.

The great advantage to using Corey is he can get John to videotape special things At a drop of a hat whereas John, you know He's gonna say no if some Hollywood producer calls him up and say I need you to come down here and sit for a three-hour video thing.

Video is very frustrating to do as you know, you have to a lot of setup and lighting and right stuff like that and It's it can be a waste of time but if Corey calls John and says, yeah, we need this special video.

Because he's a son-in-law. He has a lot more pull with John even than I would getting him to do a lot of bit. So it's much more convenient. The quality is good and so on so we pay Corey's company do it now.

He has a lot of overhead with equipment and personnel. He doesn't videotape and edit everything himself. He has a staff to pay so the the amount of the contract does sound Exorbitant if you think that's a salary that we pay directly to Corey, but it isn't it's a it's a fee paid to his company.

And then he has to support his overhead and we we review that frequently. We've we've done analyses over the years. It's cheaper for us to contract that out to a company than it would be to try to maintain our own staff and video equipment in-house.

Yeah, he can do work on the side which evens out the cost of his Overhead whereas all we're gonna do is John MacArthur and it makes everything we do if we do it in-house that much more expensive. So that's the reason for all of that.

All of that is a matter of public record. The board approves that contract. John MacArthur himself is not Involved in the setting of the price or the even the approval of whose contract we take. Yeah, so when we bid it out, you know, we could conceivably choose another company, but I don't foresee us doing that because What we're doing right now is economical and it works.

Well, so that's why we do what we do.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of intrinsic value just in having that real close relationship between Corey and John and in convenience and all of that. So right. And an aside to that Corey.

He's a very blessed man. He married The most creative member of the MacArthur family and his wife does a lot of the artwork for us as well. So, okay. So it's all yeah, it's all in the family and it's all in-house, but we get a good product and if anybody wants to Complain about it then point out what's wrong with the product point, you know, try to prove that we're not getting our money's worth.

And I dare you to do that and it's it's just not the fact so to try to make that into something Unsavory is it to my view just reflects a motive that is totally evil and probably rooted in bitterness and particularly when it comes from someone who has a very long record of Trying to discredit John MacArthur's reputation.

Yeah, right I don't feel we owe a person like that.

Answers.

No hard to blame you hard to blame you on that. Just a minute ago Phil you mentioned briefly the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability. Accountability, that's the ECFA and that's something with which I'm familiar because it's it's a it's an organization that Bears some provide some accountability for Evangelical ministries of various stripes and rather famously back in 2008 -2009 There were some investigations congressional investigations into some of these more prominent prosperity preachers like Paula White and Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar undoubtedly most aptly named of the prosperity preachers Creflo Dollar, but Famously, they are not members of the ECFA and much was made in Miss Roy's article about how grace to you has withdrawn from the ECFA as well.

And so Prosperity preachers aren't a part of it grace to use not a part of it. So there's got to be some a common thread there.

Right. Yeah, actually that's wrong. Grace to you is a member of ECFA. It was the church that withdrew their membership. Oh the church and we are we are separate organizations. I I felt like the article that she wrote deliberately tried to blur the Distinctions between the organizations involved.

We're not the same as the Masters University and seminary. We're totally different organization. Right and the church is a totally different organization as well. Grace to you wasn't always separate from the church.

But in the mid 1980s, we spun off and became a separate organization. That confused her in that article as well too because I had made the comment that for the first 30 years of this ministry John MacArthur got paid nothing and She wanted to dispute the actually she accused me of not telling the truth because she found the year.

We incorporated as a separate organization and she wants to count that as the beginning of our ministry. But actually the ministry began the first year John was at Grace Community Church.

1969.

When.

Volunteers began Making copies and distributing John's tapes and. And they they elders decided to sell the tapes so that they weren't losing money on the proposition. They sold the tapes. I wasn't here at the time.

So I'm operating from memory, but I think it was about a dollar a cassette. Actually, I think at first they set the price higher and realized they were making money. And so they dropped it to a dollar.

And when I came to grace to you in 1983 The price of tapes was about a dollar one dollar per cassette and.

In the in.

The original Decisions was charged for those tapes when the ministry was part of the church. Some of the elders wanted to pay John a royalty for the tapes that they sold ten cents a tape or something like that and That's that's the amount I've heard.

Ten cents a tape which sounds like not much but when you're selling, you know, ten million tapes. That's a million dollars. Yeah that he he for he he decided to forego right away. He said I don't need money for my tapes.

You all pay me a salary. I don't want it just distribute the tapes and keep them as cheap as possible and they did that. And he didn't get any money from the sale of his tapes or the work of grace to you either when we were a division Of the church or when we became a separate organization.

And.

That went on for 30 years. Millions of tapes and he used to laughingly make the comment that maybe he should revisit that decision but.

And he could have but never did.

Yeah, not and I mean that his goal is to to get the sermons out there and Nothing ever made him happier Than when we the staff here at grace to you without without his consent actually made the decision to To make when we'd gone to mp3s and people could download them over the internet in in 19.

Wait a minute. No in 2008. It was it was the year of Obama's first election I remember because it was the day after election day when Obama was Chosen as the president. That's when we said look we're gonna stop charging for mp3 downloads.

You can download any of these as many of them as you want for free. Hmm. Nothing We ever did made John happier than that. And Now we distribute, you know millions every month. He was still getting a dime off every download, you know, he would be.

He would he would have more money than either you or I could figure out what to do with but whatever. So anyway, he had gone for years without being paid at all for grace to you and The church paid him a salary there.

There's a famous story about when John had been here about a decade the elders decided raises salary as pastor and he said I don't need a raise I don't I don't want to raise forget it spend it on missions or whatever.

The elders consulted amongst themselves and said No, the workman is worthy of his hire and we don't think you're paid enough if you don't want this money fine. We're gonna give it to you anyway, and then we'll watch what you do with it.

You want to see what you do with it? Let's see what your stewardship is like you you can give it to missions if you want and that's pretty much what's happened over the years John is and And here's where it becomes very difficult because I can't give you details that I know about John's giving.

I don't want to rob him of his Heavenly reward. He's not gonna blow a trumpet before him when he gives but he is as many people have Already said in response to that hit piece that was published John is the most generous man of his stature that I've ever met or known or encountered and It's true that he gets multiple salaries because he's involved with the church grace to you and sure until recently the University, I don't I don't know if they still pay him a salary or not over there.

I just don't know they might. But I and the only one I know because I work here is grace to you. But I also happen to know what he does with that. Yeah, and That does not that does not line his personal pockets.

That's really all I want to say about it but yeah, uh he uses that for the Lord's work and.

You know.

As I've said repeatedly and in fact, I I had a document where I had answered many of the questions that were sent to us that was available to the reporter who wrote the hit piece and she selectively quoted what helped her narrative and ignored the facts that didn't.

And one of the facts that Absolutely doesn't help that narrative that I've made over and over again that you don't evaluate a person's Stewardship based on how much money they make what size their salary is you evaluate?

Whether they're a lover of money or not by looking at their lifestyle. And I dare anybody to look at John MacArthur's lifestyle and accuse him of extravagant living. Yeah, he he's just not an extravagant man, but he's an extremely generous man and.

You.

Know. That's really all anybody needs to know if somebody had actual facts that proved otherwise. Mm-hmm. Go ahead and publish it, but there are no facts like that. Right, right.

You know.

I've been around John some and I've had a couple of opportunities to see his Humility and some very unscripted things and things that have really impressed me that I've shared with you before. But I don't know him all that.

Well, not nearly as well as do you and others there? But I know people who know him well and Everyone who knows him well has said exactly what you just did that. He is a very very.

Generous man with what God has given him and let me also follow up on that because. The gist of that article and some of the subsequent discussion is well the proof that he's a lover of money is in the fact He has three houses and and collectively they're worth Millions.

People keep saying I I don't actually know The value of all of all three of his houses, but here's the story his house where he lives Is at the other end of this valley. He has lived in that house for 40 years man, who's a lover of money and who makes Millions as John has on book royalties.

Doesn't live in the same house for 40 years. He builds a bigger one or whatever, right? John has lived in the exact same house for 40 years. That's on a piece of property that as I understand it was given to him because when he lived down in the San Fernando Valley the most populated part of northern half of Los Angeles County.

Because of his profile as pastor of Grace Church. There was a stalker who was threatening one of his children one of his daughters. And so someone gave him this property in a remote area. There were no other houses around at the time and he built that house I don't know how much it cost but given the fact that it was built in the late 1970s and On property that was donated to him.

I'd be very surprised if he spent much more than a hundred thousand on it. So the real estate listings say it's worth a million and a half right now. I call that a good investment. It's certainly not it wasn't an extravagant expense on his part.

What's he supposed to do look at the value of his house and say no, I better move into a smaller cottage. Yeah, I you know, he's living the same place for 40 years. That says something. Yeah, he's preached the same church for 52 years.