2020 Alpha and Omega Ministries/Apologia Israel Cruise Announced, Then Beth Moore Homosexuality Saga

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2021 09 26 Sola Fide and Sola Gratia Grace Bible Church Conway AR

00:40

Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White, and before we get started today, we have a big, big, big, big announcement to make.

00:51

I was a little surprised that we were doing this right now, but we're doing it right now.

00:57

I'm not sure what's wrong with my mouth. But anyway, this is a live program.

01:02

We're professionals. Anyway, some of you may recall last

01:08

October, early November, I had the opportunity of briefly visiting the

01:16

State of Israel, and I had resisted going. I really had, mainly because I had been told it was just heavily commercialized.

01:26

I don't know. It wasn't a big, big thing on my list.

01:31

And I have mentioned that that trip changed my thinking about that in many, many different ways.

01:41

And not in the sense of, well, you've got to do this so that you can have major spiritual experiences, but as far as being able to contextualize, visualize, put things where they need to be put, as far as the events of Scripture, the relationship of where things are, really, really, really helpful, extremely important, highly recommended.

02:14

And so, we've been doing some talking with some folks, and so we have a big announcement to make.

02:21

And to help me explain all of this, we have,

02:26

I'm going to refer to her, because I've, how, let me see here, how long,

02:35

Kathy, how long have we known each other? At least, I would say, 20 years.

02:42

20? So you were two when we met? Exactly.

02:48

I remember you were young. You were just a precocious child then, I guess. Yeah, it's been a while.

02:55

It has been a long, long time. And I can't keep track of all your official titles and stuff with Sovereign, but what's your, who are we speaking with here for official purposes?

03:07

Sure, my official title is the President of Sovereign. You're the President. I don't know how you say that in Chinese.

03:14

But, is there a word? Oh, what? Okay, that sounds, that sounds much better than El Presidente.

03:24

I can assure you of that. But anyway, I've lost track of how many cruises and things we've done.

03:32

The last thing we did was, in fact, I was mentioning to Rich, I was saying, well, you know, if she's nervous coming on with me, just tell her to pretend that she's staying on top of the

03:43

Wartburg Castle, and that's where you and I had a really interesting conversation about Martin Luther and Anabaptists and everything else.

03:56

Just before the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, we had a grand, grand time there in Germany.

04:02

Well, you and I did. We know some other people. Yes, that was actually a highlight of my trip there, to have that experience up top with you.

04:09

That was a wonderful thing. And then, of course, we had that incredible dinner that night there at the castle, which was just like a fairy tale type thing.

04:19

So that was really, really awesome. But what I was going to say was, you and I enjoyed that.

04:24

There are certain other people, because of their Deutsche phobia, that aren't quite as excited when they're in Germany as other people are.

04:35

But anyway, we won't get into that right now. So we have been talking, and you all have put together a pretty amazing itinerary for what

04:50

I can only describe as sort of a, I'd describe this as a bucket list type trip.

04:56

Oh, definitely. There are so many port destinations on this cruise. You're hitting a lot of major must -see ports.

05:05

Yeah, you are. So I don't even know everything about it, okay? So I'm going to be learning as we're going along.

05:12

But the thing that immediately should catch everybody's attention is we're talking about Rome and Ephesus and Israel.

05:25

And Athens. And Athens. Well, there you go. So you've got

05:30

Mars Hill. You've got a bunch of stuff with Paul there.

05:37

And then you have Israel as well. And I have to explain to people,

05:43

I wouldn't have understood how this could have worked before I got over there.

05:50

Because people have the idea, well, how in the world, if you're on a ship, can you tour

05:57

Israel? Because people don't realize how tiny Israel is.

06:03

It is so small. It's incredible. I mean, the distances that we covered by bus going from place to place in Germany were much longer than almost any of the drives that you can...

06:17

We would be three countries over by the time if we drove this far.

06:22

And on the cruise, you get three full days in Israel. So we'll be able to cover a lot of land during our time there.

06:30

So we've got Jerusalem, and we'll be able to get to Galilee, and those things like that.

06:36

Exactly. And then adding into that the... Now, I haven't been to Ephesus, and I haven't been to Athens.

06:45

I have been to Rome, very briefly. Go ahead. Well, I didn't realize it was your first time to Ephesus, but that's great.

06:54

We'll be able to take you there for your first time. It's amazing, especially the excavation that's going there.

07:00

I think it will just blow your mind to see what they have uncovered. Well, I've been told by those in the know, and you know who that is, that the ruins there are just light years beyond almost anything else that you can see.

07:18

It's just an incredible place. And of course, Paul spends three years there. You've got Acts 17 in Athens.

07:25

And of course, there's all sorts of things we can talk about in Rome, too. So there's just so many things packed into one trip, but that's a long ways from here.

07:39

So it's sort of helpful that we are announcing this because we're talking...

07:46

We recognize that for a lot of folks who'd want to do something like this, this is something you got to save up for.

07:51

This is something you got to make plans for. We're not talking about to go in next month.

07:58

What are the dates for our trip? So our date for the Holy Land cruise is

08:04

September 26 through October 8, 2020. So we are more than a year out and plenty of time to save.

08:13

That's right. And our folks need that. Now, I also need to mention that we have a website up and I'm scrolling back through all the messages.

08:25

There we go. And it is theholylandcruise .com, which looks like theholylandcruise .com

08:35

or something like that. It looks like there's and in there someplace, but theholylandcruise, all one word, .com.

08:42

And when you go there, you may be asking a question, well, who's going to be doing the speaking on a trip like this?

08:51

And that's when you will discover that there are two of us primarily, even though there will be others, obviously, who will come along and will be involved as well.

09:03

Because when you go and visit these sites... For example, last year, I got to lead a

09:09

Bible study on John 6 at Capernaum on the seashore next to the

09:16

Sea of Galilee, which was a pretty amazing thing to be able to do.

09:22

But the two of us primarily doing the speaking on this trip will be myself and my fellow pastor

09:29

Jeff Durbin, who will also early... No, okay, I'm going to change that. I was going to say early in the morning, because you know that I'm an early morning person.

09:38

Right, because you're running. I know you're going to schedule those in as well. So you and I will lead the morning running people, because I have pictures of you and I running with...

09:49

You know, it's sort of sad. I know you're in London all the time, but it's, I don't know, it's sort of sad right now. Big Ben, you know?

09:55

I mean... Yes, I know. It's covered up. It's totally covered up. It's like, and it's quiet. It's sad.

10:01

But we've got a good picture of you and I running with Big Ben in the background, and Big Ben was still doing his Big Ben thing back then.

10:07

But we'll do the early morning stuff, because I happen to know that Jeff Durbin is not an early morning person.

10:15

And so maybe he'll do some late -night karate exhibitions or something like that. I'm not really sure, but...

10:21

Well, we do have those, you know, scheduled times for our theology talks. I know those have been a big hit on your past cruises.

10:29

They have. I don't know if you see, you didn't, I bet you didn't see this. I'll send you the link to it. But just yesterday,

10:35

Jeff posted a video. I'm not sure if you heard of the craze on the internet right now, where people are kicking bottle tops off of bottles.

10:46

You know what? I hadn't heard of that, but I actually saw the video. Oh, you did see it? It was quite impressive. Yeah, so Jeff Durbin will be speaking and doing security all at the same time.

10:57

It's a multitasking thing that we've got him doing. So, but no, Jeff and I will be speaking, and obviously at each one of those locations, there is just so much that we will be able to, well, there's so much that we won't be able to cover.

11:14

I mean, to be perfectly honest with you. I mean, there's just only so much time. Right. Well, the great thing that we'll be able to do with Sovereign and Alpha and Omega is that we customize these shore excursions specifically to what you and Jeff want to teach and want to see.

11:30

So that's the one great thing we do. It's not just the typical excursion that Celebrity does, but we really cater it and customize it to what you want to do.

11:40

And then as well, we have our included lectures while we're at sea, and you have the benefit of teaching there.

11:45

So it's great all around as far as deciding on, you know, who to go with on your

11:52

Israel cruise. Right, right. Yeah, now obviously, you know, there isn't all that much time at sea in comparison to a lot of cruises that you might do.

12:04

And when we're in Israel, how many, I mean, how many different ports do we go to in Israel?

12:11

So we go, we have, let's see here, two days in Ashdod and one day in Haifa.

12:16

So typically we'll get, you know, a full day in Jerusalem, a full day in the

12:22

Sea of Galilee area, and then also we can visit the Dead Sea on one of the other days. Qumran, Qumran, Qumran.

12:29

Yeah, I'm sure Jeff is listening right now. And so the fun thing we're going to have to be doing for the next couple of months is like having competitions as to, okay, who gets to do the study while standing with the background as Qumran Cave 7, where the

12:49

Isaiah scroll was found, or cave 4. You know, who gets to do that? Let's see. And he'll challenge me to kick something, which

12:56

I can't do because I would break every bone in my body if I tried that. But I'll challenge him to ride a bike up a mountain, and he can't do that either.

13:03

So that's how we'll work all this stuff out. All right, sounds good. You don't want to do any of those things?

13:09

That sort of sounds like it would be fun. But now... We'll leave it to Ryan. Ryan might be able to do it.

13:15

Oh, yeah, Ryan. I want to see Ryan do the bottle cap kicking thing.

13:22

Let's not go there. No, Ryan, stop, stop. I don't want you to hurt yourself. You hurt yourself way too often as it is.

13:29

So now, when we were over there, we didn't do the cruise type thing, we just did the tour in Israel type thing.

13:36

And so you'd have to go to different locations, and then you'd stay the night in different places.

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So it's pack up, drag your luggage out to the bus type of situation.

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The advantage we have here is you get settled in your cabin, and the next time you pack up is when you're done.

13:58

That's the beauty of the cruise product. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is really, really, really nice. Now, we will be spending time together on buses because you got to get to where you're going.

14:08

But again, the thing I've tried to communicate to people is that when

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I stood on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, I was stunned to realize that you can see the other shore wherever you are.

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So north, south, east, west, you can see all the way across. And that just gives you an idea of how small

14:27

Israel actually is. And so you can get to places. I mean,

14:32

I think the longest bus ride we took may have gotten close to an hour.

14:38

And I think that's when we were going from way up near Galilee all the way down toward the Dead Sea area or something like that.

14:44

That sounds about right, depending on traffic. Yeah, depending on traffic. Yeah, so the big advantage for a lot of folks will be if you don't like the packing, unpacking, packing, unpacking thing, that this will be really, really, really, really nice.

14:59

Absolutely. Yeah, so that is a tremendous opportunity. So we're talking about October of 2020.

15:07

Now, my understanding, though, is that there is... Now, obviously, will our folks overseas be able to contact you?

15:22

Oh, absolutely. Because, I mean, obviously someone in Europe has a bit of an advantage on those of us who aren't, as far as that goes.

15:32

But they'd be able to contact you all, and you all would be able to work out how all of that works. Exactly. Feel, you know, anyone, wherever you're from, if you're interested, feel free to contact us, and we can definitely help you get on the ship.

15:43

Yeah, I mean, I've got friends down in South Africa that I think would very much like to be able to do this. And so there is, look,

15:50

Sovereign knows everything there is to know about the international travel biz, including passports and stuff like that.

15:58

So if people have questions, don't ask me, don't ask Jeff. We will give you bad information. So ask the people who actually know, and they will be able to help you with all of that kind of stuff, because it's extremely important to know how to do it.

16:11

Absolutely. And I just wanted to mention, I don't think we named the name of the ship we're going to be on. Oh, yes.

16:16

It's going to be the Celebrity Reflection. And I know you've been on some celebrity ships in the past.

16:22

What are your thoughts on celebrities? Oh, yeah. I mean, as you know, the funny thing about me, and that won't be the case on this trip, is

16:33

I rarely get off the ship. That's so true. I didn't even think about that.

16:40

I am not the excursion guy, but obviously this time that's the whole reason is to be the excursion guy.

16:47

So I spend a lot of time on ships. When everyone else is getting off,

16:52

I'm up on the rail going, have a nice time, guys. See you later. And then

16:58

I'm off enjoying the gym when there's nobody up there and stuff like that. But all of these ships are just amazing.

17:08

I compare them to the first cruises that we took back in, what was that?

17:14

Good grief. When was that? 1999 or something like that? Yeah, I think so. I remember it was the

17:21

Carnival Imagination. That's all I remember. Yes, but no, we've been on some beautiful, beautiful ships.

17:32

I haven't been on this one. The picture looks great, but the food is always just amazing.

17:38

And if you're expecting to lose weight. Anyway, no, actually on this trip, we do so much walking.

17:46

Yeah, it is. It's quite intensive. It will be definitely an intense trip. Yeah, you might actually even things out, but you ain't going to lose too much because the food on board and stuff.

17:58

But we're going to be spending a lot of time off ship. At least I want to because I want to spend as much time as I possibly can in places like Ephesus and Athens and obviously

18:07

Israel and places like that. Well, I just wanted to mention a couple of things about pricing for those who are interested in going and wondering how it works with the excursion pricing.

18:17

So all excursions are an additional cost so you can actually pick and choose which ports you'd want to go out and participate in the excursion.

18:27

So it's not included in the cruise rate. So just wanted to make that clear. And then also we do have an early savings rate.

18:36

So if you sign up by July 22nd, and yes, that is this month this month of this year, you'll get to save $150 per person.

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So we kind of have a couple of weeks here for a really, really good discount. So encourage everyone to sign up before July 22nd.

18:55

Now that's signing up and providing a deposit, not the whole thing. Exactly.

19:00

Just a deposit, correct? Yeah, I was going to say most people are going... Just deposit and then you have the full, about a full year almost to make your final payment.

19:12

Okay. I know that trips like this are for a lot of folks.

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It's a bucket list type thing. It's an opportunity to see places you only dreamed about ever seeing.

19:26

And so, you know, flights and things like that can be challenging and can be expensive, but you're talking about seeing stuff that you've seen in pictures, but to actually stand there and to be there with other people.

19:41

And it really is an amazing experience. I wish I could tell you all about Ephesus and Athens, but this is going to be a first for me, too.

19:48

But it certainly was my experience, especially in Galilee, seeing the first century synagogue at Migdal, which would have been

19:58

Mary Magdalene's synagogue. To know that those stones probably heard the

20:05

Lord preaching and teaching there is just... there is something truly special about that.

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And for those of us who are really intent upon handling the word correctly, it really did add that element for me in a real big way.

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So you've got that plus what's happening outside of Israel. It's going to be incredible, and we're looking forward to October of 2020, which

20:33

I'm really glad because October is before November of 2020. And November of 2020 is crazy time here in the

20:40

United States. So we'll be able to actually escape the ultra crazy part of it and be gone for some of the most nasty of time periods during that, and then come back and be a part of the process,

20:56

I guess. Well, Kathy, thank you very, very much for taking the time to help us understand this and make the announcement.

21:03

And if folks have questions, I don't have the website in front of me, but I'm sure there is a means for contacting.

21:13

There's a contact button over on the right hand side, and they can talk to one of the highly trained staff.

21:21

Oh, yes, yes, Rich. Okay, and Rich would like to speak with you after I say bye -bye.

21:28

So thanks so much for having me on. All right. Thank you. I'm going to put you on hold here a second.

21:34

There we go. All right. Thank you, Kathy. And so there you go, folks. I didn't know about Athens.

21:44

All I knew about was I knew we were doing Rome, going to and from Rome, which obviously means that there's been some discussion of doing something before in Rome.

21:59

We haven't finalized any of that stuff yet, but as far as like a conference type thing, which would be beyond the cruise, but we've got folks in Italy, Germany, all over Europe.

22:15

And so we'll be looking at trying to do something along those lines. But, you know, getting people from here to there ain't cheap.

22:26

I understand that. I understand it's a huge investment. It is a once -in -a -lifetime thing. This is not, you know, we've done cruises in the past where it's, you know,

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Eastern Caribbean, you know, and you're gone for a week. And that one trip we did was like 289 bucks or something like that, you know,

22:43

I mean, okay, but that's not a bucket list thing. That's not Rome and Ephesus and Athens and Jerusalem and Garden of Gethsemane and the

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Mount of Olives and Capernaum and everything else. And obviously,

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I would like to think that having Jeff and I teaching during the course of the entire trip will be awesome for us, but also hopefully awesome for everybody else as well.

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So obviously, we will be highlighting a lot of the, not only the historical and things like that, but the apologetic, the apologetically relevant elements of the trip.

23:32

So really excited about it. And so go to The Holy Land Cruise.

23:42

I'm scrolling back again. There it is. The Holy Land Cruise. All one word, nothing.

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It's just as it's spelled. TheHolyLandCruise .com Just HTTP, backslash, backslash,

23:56

TheHolyLandCruise .com And obviously, I'll link it up and I'm sure we'll have a banner ad probably by the end of the day.

24:08

And here we go. So let me mention one last thing before I switch topics. There is another major ministry that is doing a very similar itinerary.

24:21

They have almost 300 people on the waitlist. Same amenities, same locations, and 300 people on the waitlist.

24:37

There you go. In all probability, we'll sell out because we've got a lot of friends in Europe.

24:48

So I almost feel badly for our American friends, but give them a call.

24:56

Talk to the wife. Ladies, talk to the husband. Talk to the children. And find out just how much you want to be able to see these places and remember these places.

25:09

I can't help, I'll be honest with you, I can't help when I read

25:15

John 6 now, but to see Capernaum, to see the synagogue, to see what's supposed to be

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Peter's house, whether it is or isn't, don't know, would have been nearby one way or the other. But especially,

25:29

I cannot help but see the Sea of Galilee, the shore and the sea, and see the boats coming across.

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And I know which direction they would have come from. Lord, how'd you get here? Can't help it, because I've seen it now.

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And it was special. So first thing I'm thinking is, when

25:55

I get back, is let's do it. Let's see what happens here. And so, there you go.

26:03

So, Alpha Omega Ministries, together with Apologia Church, I've got a connection between them both.

26:08

And Jeff and I will be doing the teaching, and it will be super exciting. Also, pray for us next week.

26:16

We are going to be doing some recording and some stuff on Mormonism.

26:24

Jeff and I are going to play together, and I think it'll be really exciting stuff. And so, keep that in mind as well.

26:34

Don't be asking questions in channel. There's no one in there who can answer your questions. Unless Unicleman joined channel, which he hasn't done in about 10 years.

26:46

But then he could answer those questions. But there you go. All right. Again, thanks to Kathy for joining us and I could see

26:55

I she said what president is in Chinese and it's right right out of my mind. I can't I can't remember a thing.

27:02

I'm sorry about that, but that's the way it goes. All right, let's shift gears. That was a big announcement, but we have other things to get to on the program today.

27:16

And I simply have not been in the vanguard forefront of the discussion of Beth Moore.

27:34

There are plenty of folks who are, you know, I had one lady, one

27:39

Christian sister, just absolutely convinced that Beth Moore is actually a oneness advocate and was sending me all this stuff and I I would have to have looked up every reference and it

27:49

I I didn't. I couldn't. It's just too much. And not high on my priority list.

27:55

Just isn't. I mean oneness is, but it just didn't seem like, you know, and so but at the same time

28:06

I have I would I would be completely remiss not to recognize what has been going on recently with the social justice train pulling into the station of evangelicalism and the

28:25

Reformed Church with all of its cars still attached. So the racialism car is firmly attached to the human sexuality car.

28:41

And so the Revoice conference and the amazing things that took place, the

28:49

PCA General Assembly just a couple weeks ago in regards to the Nashville statement and everything that's going on in that area.

28:59

The the collapse of what has for a while anyway has been called complementarianism into in reality and egalitarianism a a reflection of the fact that our culture.

29:15

Once you have a creator, you cannot have created specificity in the genders.

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In other words, male and female simply exists for the procreation of the species and once you can do that without male and female then it won't even be relevant anymore.

29:30

So the idea that that God creates men differently from women and that this is good and it's proper and we should rejoice in this and a woman should rejoice in being a woman and a man should rejoice in being a man.

29:45

There really isn't a ground for that in the neo -darwinian micromutational evolutionary theory.

29:51

It just is what it is. There's nothing to rejoice, there's nothing rejoicing anything in in a Darwinian worldview when you think about it.

29:58

But anyway, and so as the church in the

30:05

West reflects more and more the culture that it is not seeking to be a witness to in the sense of proclaiming

30:18

God's truth to. See, theology matters and when you have a view of the church as a lifeboat that is escaping a sinking burning wreck, that's going to change how you view the function of the church and the message of the church.

30:44

And when you don't believe in the sovereignty of God and salvation, when you don't believe that God's working out a sovereign decree, when you don't believe that he's demonstrating his wisdom before all of creation and how he is pursuing the redemption of a particular people in Christ Jesus, that changes everything.

31:05

That changes how you view things and a church that does not see itself as the ambassador for the one who is

31:15

Lord over all. Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords and that is part of our proclamation.

31:23

We have gotten ourselves evangelicalism, especially non -reformed evangelicalism, but there are forms of reformed evangelicalism that don't see this either.

31:32

We've gotten to the point where we think the gospel does not include the proclamation of the fact that Jesus Christ is

31:40

Lord over all and that every person will give an answer to him. Even though that's one of the first things that Paul says in Mars Hill is that Jesus Christ is

31:48

Lord of all. When you think about the standard for spiritual laws type proclamation, there's nothing about the lordship of Jesus Christ or the lordship of God in all of that.

32:01

It's mainly man's lordship and will you give a little bit of it to God? And then maybe once you get somebody into the church, then you can talk about the lordship of Christ or something like that.

32:15

It's sort of an extra -spiritual step, you know, to get them to go into, type of thing. That's not what the

32:22

Apostles did. What was so offensive to the Roman culture was the proclamation over against Kaiser Kurios, Caesar is

32:32

Lord, you had Jesus Kurios, Jesus is Lord. That was offensive to them and so in a lot of places, you have a utter dichotomy to where the church is just spiritual, it's just over here and it has nothing to do with this world and you just do your spiritual little thing over there and then on the other extreme, you got people over here that you don't have to, you don't worry about conversion, you don't worry about justification, we just all have to, you know, make things better for everybody now, let's just all sing kumbaya, leftist liberalism.

33:11

In the middle you have the Apostles who recognize that only a person who has been changed utterly by that incredible act of regeneration, who has bowed the knee in repentance and faith to the

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Lord Jesus Christ, only that person is going to have the right priorities and understanding of what to do to represent

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Christ as an ambassador for Christ in this world and to make a difference in the only way that we can make a difference, we've only been given one power and that power is the power of the gospel.

33:47

So theology does matter, it matters a great deal and so what does any of this have to do with Beth Moore?

33:57

Well, I started seeing her popping up more and more in my feed along with many of those who are pushing the social justice stuff and I had heard about her for years and I, you know, sometimes these clips would come up and you're sort of going,

34:11

God told you to do what? I mean, God tells her to do lots and lots of stuff and it would be really hard to see how there's a meaningful doctrine of sola scriptura functionally in her teaching and her preaching because she preaches in churches, let's just be honest, that's what she's doing.

34:32

But I had seen stuff but I started seeing much more over the past year and a half or so as this movement has gone into full steam ahead.

34:47

A couple weeks ago, a letter, an open letter was published to Beth Moore and the letter contained five questions for Beth Moore in light of her associations.

35:08

Now some people say it's not fair to ask somebody something about their associations. Yes, it is. People ask me about my associations with Michael Brown all the time and I have an answer.

35:17

I don't dodge it. I have an answer. I can point you to where we have openly discussed our disagreements, where we have made it very, very plain, where we disagree and where we agree and how we can work together in areas we can't work together.

35:33

So if you are going to take a position of leadership or accept a position of leadership within the

35:43

Church or within the believing community as a whole, and we still have this ability to communicate, won't have it for long, but we still have this ability to communicate, and that creates an ability to have an impact that you otherwise would never be able to have.

36:04

If you're gonna be a Christian leader, then there are certain questions that you simply have to be able to answer.

36:10

Today, one's view on the issue of homosexuality is a major dividing line within the

36:19

Church. Dr. Moeller has said it repeatedly for years now. There has—the time has now come, not just there will come a day, but the time has now come where there's no place to hide.

36:36

There is no place to hide. And as much as it's going to hurt, as much as it's going to cost us, and as much as we are going to see more and more and more people collapse into infidelity and unfaithfulness on the subject of homosexuality, and oh yeah, they will say,

36:59

I hadn't read all these books, or you know, there's this book. I mean, there's already a hundred books out there that you could read and use as an excuse to go, oh,

37:09

I didn't know all that. Homosexuality, God just makes people that way. It's just another sexual orientation.

37:15

We need to accept LGBTQ. Remember, every single one of those letters is contradictory to any kind of biblical worldview, and any kind of biblical view of gender.

37:26

It just—it just is. It's just—it's obvious. But I found a way that I can—I can believe all those things, and we're just going to see more and more and more people taking that route as the culture places pressure upon them, and they just go, you know what, this isn't a hill to die on.

37:45

Because they don't recognize, or they are unwilling to believe, that this is about whether Jesus determines what his creation is about, or whether the culture does.

37:59

Because once you've determined that an issue such as homosexuality, which is plainly addressed in Scripture, which is plainly a part of God's good law, which is plainly still a part very much of the apostolic belief in Romans 1, 1

38:17

Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, it is fundamental to an understanding of any type of Christian ethics or concept of law, and that— there's the problem.

38:27

The vast majority of American Christians have no concept of God's law at all. Once you recognize that, then you recognize that what the world is saying to us is, say,

38:40

Kaiser kurios, Caesar is Lord. When Caesar says to us, you will not say anything about homosexuality, and Jesus says he is

38:53

Lord, and he died for sin, and that's one of the sins he died for, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were cleansed, you were justified, then the world is telling us, stop following Jesus.

39:12

That is what the world is doing. That's what Pete Buttigieg is doing. That's his message.

39:18

Stop following Jesus. We have a different Jesus you need to follow, it's called the state. The state gets to tell you.

39:25

So today, these questions cannot be dodged, they cannot be diminished, they cannot be swept under the rug.

39:36

Anyone who is in position of Christian leadership today needs to declare your position.

39:42

Take a stand. So what were the questions? Number one, do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

39:52

Now, Mrs. Moore wrote a book, Praying God's Word, I think in 2003, so 16 years ago.

40:04

And there's another edition that came out in 2009, and the reason

40:10

I'm talking about this today is editing has taken place in that book in regards to homosexuality.

40:19

Therefore, what's interesting is Mrs. Moore's position in 2003 was plainly and clearly that homosexuality is inherently sinful.

40:34

I'll read you the section here in a moment. So the first question, do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

40:40

Now, the type of response you're going to get from people that are on the path to compromise is, well, what do you mean by homosexuality?

40:48

Do you mean just an orientation? Do you mean actually acting upon this? Etc., etc., etc.

40:53

So there, you know, you may want clarification, okay, but is homosexuality as a whole, as the idea of being attracted in a way that is described as a dishonoring passion by the

41:12

Apostle Paul? Do you agree with Paul on that? You remember how good old

41:20

Barry, when we debated 2001, stood on his head to try to avoid what

41:34

Romans 1 was actually saying. But do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

41:41

Number two, do you believe that the practice of the homosexual lifestyle is compatible with holy Christian living? Now remember, none of this was even slightly controversial in the circles that Mrs.

41:56

Moore was running in in 2003. I mean, realize

42:03

Obergefell was 2015. This is a dozen years before gay marriage. Things have happened so fast.

42:10

Yes, they were on the horizon for those that could see them, but yeah, this wasn't overly controversial at this point in time.

42:21

Do you believe a person who dies as a practicing homosexual but professes to be a Christian will inherit eternal life?

42:27

Now that's somewhat of a complex question, because part of that,

42:34

I mean, you'd want to go, well, practicing homosexual as in unrepentant, as in repetitively, or are you talking about someone who had a one -time failure?

42:48

I can understand how further elucidation would want to be had in a situation like that, okay?

42:57

But if we're talking to simply a person who practices homosexuality, so these gay

43:04

Christians actively engaged in homosexual activity, do you accept their claim of faith in Christ?

43:19

Four, do you believe same -sex attraction is in and of itself an inherently sinful, unnatural, and disordered desire that must be mortified?

43:28

Now this is where we already know at least 40%, it seems, could be other reasons, but that 40 % vote last week tells you something.

43:40

And nobody was even thinking in these categories in our circles ten years ago.

43:50

I know that. That bus has left the station. We've got to catch up.

43:58

And there's been plenty of discussion about this now, but a lot of people still feel outside the circle, shall we say.

44:07

And five, why have you been so silent on this subject in light of your desire to teach the Word of God? And I said, you know, that fifth question,

44:14

I'm not sure I would have asked that simply because it, I can just see how someone could use it to get around the other four, basically.

44:25

But, I mean, it's a valid question. Nothing can happen in the race area, in the ethnicity area, without Beth Moore tweeting about it within two and a half seconds.

44:38

But in this area? Nashville statement? Anything like that?

44:44

Crickets. Absolute crickets. And so in light of some of the people that she does have association with, who are plainly compromised, open about their promotion of a

44:58

Christian homosexual identity type thing. It is a valid question.

45:05

So those are the questions that were asked. So what happened was

45:14

I started seeing screenshots, graphics of a book called

45:23

Praying God's Word. I think it was edition 2003 and 2009.

45:33

And people are saying, hey, look, there's a whole section, the whole section on homosexuality has been removed from the

45:42

Kindle edition. Now, okay, we're still, even years down the road now, fighting with how to deal with Kindle.

45:51

How to cite Kindle. I'll buy books on Kindle and oh, the formatting is just horrible.

46:03

I mean, it's just like, come on, people, didn't someone at least give it a read through before charging money for it?

46:09

It's horrible. And so, you know, sometimes it's the only way I can get a book.

46:15

Sometimes the books are so expensive that I just don't want to invest in the paper, just to look up a single reference.

46:24

But in this instance, look, I admitted this on Facebook. I have never read a

46:29

Beth Moore book. I've never listened to a Beth Moore sermon. I've seen clips. That's it.

46:36

Sorry. I could name some big name preachers that I've never listened to an entire sermon of.

46:42

So it's not offensive. Anything I do is offensive to some people, but that's another issue.

46:52

So someone took a picture of the book page itself, the paper page, and posted it.

47:02

And then I went ahead and I bought my first Beth Moore book on Kindle.

47:09

I bought this book so I could double check to see where the editing had been, where the previous text was the same, and when it became the same again, so you can see where the edit was.

47:22

So I was able to verify this for myself. So here is the section that was originally written that has now been removed.

47:33

And Mrs. Moore has stated starting last night, sometime yesterday, that this was purposeful and intentional.

47:44

This was not a mistake. This was an edit that she has approved, or maybe suggested.

47:50

I don't know. But she now says what I'm about to read to you goes far beyond Scripture, that it hurt people, it drove people away from finding the truth.

48:05

This is an overreach, overstep, exceeded Scripture. What was the term here?

48:13

Overspoken. When our words keep people from God's words, we've overspoken.

48:19

So here, according to Beth Moore, is her over speaking.

48:25

Ready? Okay. Quoting now. Before we proceed to our

48:31

Scripture prayers for overcoming sexual strongholds, we are wise to address another deadly sexual assault of the evil one in our society, homosexuality.

48:44

I have wonderful news for anyone who has struggled with homosexual sin. God indeed can deliver you and anxiously awaits your full cooperation.

48:57

Do not let Satan shame you into not seeking forgiveness, fullness, and complete restoration in Jesus Christ.

49:05

I know complete transformation is possible, not only because God's word says so, but because I have witnessed it with my own eyes.

49:15

I know plenty of believers who have been set free from homosexuality."

49:22

End quote. Page 279, Praying God's Word, and my understanding is that's the 2009 print edition.

49:30

That's what I understood from what was provided with the stuff. Okay. Now, I think not only in the fact that there has been a huge pushback against the women who wrote the open letter, attacks upon Justin Peters and everybody else.

49:59

I mean, the wagons have been circled. Saul Alinsky has been brought in.

50:05

I mean, it has been the standard leftist paradigm of defense.

50:11

It really has been. It's, let's not deal with the issue. Let's not go at this biblically. Let's attack people personally.

50:18

Let's do the politics of personal destruction. That's been the mechanism of defense. These people are attacking

50:24

Beth. Let's go get them, and so on and so forth. We'll never get answers.

50:33

Well, I'll take that back. We very well might get answers to these questions somewhere down the road, and I can predict what they will be.

50:44

But I think we've gotten the answers over the series of tweets that have come forth from Beth Moore's personal account.

51:00

And the first, I already read, but let me, well, I didn't read all of it, but here's the first one. After taking three years to pray and to test the fruit, it became clear to me that my words in this section, words that exceeded

51:24

Scripture, were stopping many from God's words which follow.

51:31

It wasn't a doctrinal shift. When our words keep people from God's words, we've overspoken.

51:46

Now, I'm going to try to put the absolute best construction

51:51

I possibly can on this, okay? The only way, when it says we're stopping many from God's words which follow, so the best spin

52:05

I can put on that is that there are a number in the book, there are a number of verses that are put into first -person prayer form.

52:17

That's what the book's about. And so, interestingly enough, one of them is 1

52:23

Corinthians chapter 6, verses 9 -11. That talks about homosexual offenders. It's still there.

52:28

It's still in the Kindle edition. I mean, you can't take it out of 1 Corinthians 6. I mean, it's just part of what you're dealing with.

52:36

So, the best construction I can put on this is, she was saying that because of how controversial this has become in our society, this was turning people off before they could get to the praying

52:49

God's word part, and I just didn't want to put a stumbling block in front of people like that. Okay?

52:56

Is that fair? Is that a fair reading? That's the best construction

53:05

I can put on it. But this took three years.

53:12

After taking three years to pray and to test the fruit, and my understanding of that would probably be, well,

53:21

I've been contacted, I've had communication with people like Jonathan Merritt, people like that.

53:33

People who, by the way, liked this tweet included the people involved with Revoice and things like that, and I think that's what to test the fruit was.

53:51

We're not talking exegesis here. We're not talking, I read Robert Gagnon's entire corpus of works on this subject.

53:59

No. This is to pray and to test the fruit, and this is someone who talks a lot about God telling her to do this and God telling her to do that and very straightforward verbal commands.

54:16

It became clear to me that my words in this section, words that exceeded

54:23

Scripture. Now, that's really important, because what this section says is that homosexuality is a deadly assault of the evil one in our society.

54:42

Is that true or false? Is that true or false? Is that, how does that exceed

54:47

Scripture? How is that over speaking? Secondly, is it over speaking to talk about homosexual sin?

55:00

Is it over speaking to say God indeed can deliver you? I think this is one of the main parts right here, is because one of the key assertions of the modern gay

55:17

Christian movement is that sexual orientation is completely immutable, cannot be changed.

55:26

This section says, oh yes, it can. She says, I know complete transformation is possible not only because God's Word says so.

55:36

So, Mrs. Moore, does it no longer say that, or does it say that?

55:43

Did it say that in 2003 and 2009, but doesn't say it in 2019? But because I have witnessed it with my own eyes, did you or did you not?

55:56

I know plenty of believers who have been set free from homosexuality. Well, the problem is there are all sorts of people today who will say

56:10

I know of none. In fact, I didn't queue it up, but part of Greg Johnson's talk at the

56:21

PCA General Assembly last week included his assertion. He says,

56:27

I've talked with leaders of many ministries. I don't know of anyone who has ever been set free.

56:35

So, which is it? Beth Moore says, I know plenty of believers who have been set free from homosexuality.

56:42

Is that over -speaking? Is that exceeding scripture? I have a feeling she will come out and say, yes, it was.

56:52

Yes, it was. And I made the prediction. Here's what

56:59

I said. Here's what I said at the end. This is last night's post. And I predict that within five years, we will get a

57:06

Rachel Held Evans slash Jen Hatmaker slash hundreds of others style article explaining how after prayerful consideration and growing in love for God's people and getting to know so many wonderful LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters in the

57:21

Lord, Beth Moore has come to understand that we dare not exceed scripture and we must follow the Spirit's lead to recognize the need for their full inclusion in the life and fellowship of the body, etc.,

57:31

etc. How many of these articles have we already read? It's no longer even...

57:39

it doesn't even... you know, when it first started happening, remember that one Southern Baptist pastor who came out when his son?

57:46

Huh? Yeah, well, I wouldn't remember that. Big news!

57:53

If a Southern Baptist pastor came out and said that today, it might make the local Baptist press, but it ain't going to make much more than that.

58:02

Jen Hatmaker, all these folks, that's just the norm now.

58:10

And so, is that what we're seeing for Beth Moore?

58:18

Beth Moore has over 12 times the number of followers that I have, and she is a very, very popular teacher.

58:36

And if she comes out and does that in our compromised situation today, what will the result of that be?

58:49

How many people will simply follow her in that perspective?

58:57

But that's what we're going to talk about up until this morning. And some more light was shed upon the situation this morning.

59:10

A series of tweets back and forth between herself and David Alves, or Alvis.

59:17

I don't know how to pronounce the last name. Probably Alves. Included, and he's an ally, so he's on her side, talking about this particular section.

59:35

Here's what she wrote. Nearly makes me cry, David. It was not a fast decision.

59:42

Well, the preceding tweet had said three years, so. It was not a fast decision. I took several years to contemplate what to do about it as I watched the damage it caused.

59:54

So folks, what I read to you before, which was a straightforward identification of homosexuality as sin, and the ability of Christ to redeem and to deliver from it.

01:00:10

So this is what tells me, if she now is talking about damage, what she means by that is,

01:00:20

I had not read. Well, okay, I had. But most people had not read pro - homosexual

01:00:27

Christian literature in 2003. Jeff Neal and I wrote

01:00:34

The Same -Sex Controversy in 2001, so I had already read more than I wanted to read. But, for example, you didn't have

01:00:43

Justin Lee's book, which so poignantly argues that this is the only type of orientation he's ever known, that it wasn't caused by anything else.

01:00:57

I still think that's a small minority of homosexuals, but be it as it may, that wasn't out there.

01:01:04

And so here's my, again, as positive a spin as I can place upon an interpretation, and I think

01:01:11

I'm probably right here. The damage it caused would refer to people who had contacted her and said, you don't know how much

01:01:23

I have prayed to be delivered from this, and I never have been, and yet you make it sound so simple.

01:01:31

You make it sound so easy. Want to guess that? I think it's...

01:01:38

Am I not trying to be as absolutely generous and fair as I possibly can be?

01:01:48

I took several years to contemplate what to do about it as I watched the damage it caused. It's an old book, but still widely used.

01:01:56

It was not my intention, but I made people feel demonized.

01:02:04

I overshot scripture by a mile. Okay, again,

01:02:17

I read this as a person who, unfortunately, has had to read far more works promoting gay

01:02:28

Christianity than I ever, ever, ever, ever wanted to read. And it wasn't just up until 2001.

01:02:35

I've had to keep reading them since then. Pretty much every one of these books that starts making a big splash,

01:02:43

I have to read. So, or at least listen to.

01:02:49

That's normally how I do it. So, as I listen to this,

01:02:57

I think what is behind this, if she were to flesh this out, is the way

01:03:05

I put things made my LGBTQ brothers and sisters feel excluded, that there was something wrong with them because they hadn't been changed.

01:03:20

And now I recognize that I overshot scripture by a mile. I was too glib in what

01:03:27

I said. That's my guess. And you know what?

01:03:35

Mrs. Moore might think that she has not had a doctrinal shift, but the fact of the matter is, she has.

01:03:46

Now, here's why she might not think that she has. You say, why do you keep trying to help her out?

01:03:52

I'm not trying to help her out. I'm trying to help you understand why there are so many people who used to be on our side, they're on the other side.

01:03:59

The point was, no one ever knew which side they were on in the first place. This is still a new area for many people.

01:04:07

There has only been, there's been less than really 20 years where those of us inside meaningful, dedicated, yes, the

01:04:18

Bible is in the air, Word of God, Christianity, have been forced to deal with this invasion and with the issues that it raises.

01:04:31

And so, as a result, you can, it's difficult, it's difficult for, let me put it this way,

01:04:42

I doubt that Beth Moore had a meaningfully thought -through biblical foundation for saying what she said.

01:04:51

She has said what was popular to say in our circles back then. And the reality is, there's a whole lot more to it than that.

01:05:01

Many of us did not have, many of us still do not have, but many of us did not have a foundationally solid understanding of human sexuality from a creation perspective.

01:05:17

We did not have a biblical foundation for why marriage is between a man and a woman, because we just assumed it.

01:05:26

I think what happened is, she assumed what was standard in her circles, and then when she has been challenged, she has changed her perspective, but she doesn't sense it in that way, because it's not like, it's not like she had a firm understanding of exactly what the male -female relationship was supposed to be and all the rest of this type of stuff.

01:05:50

She had thought all of it through, she'd read the best that Matthew Vines or anybody else has to throw out at us, she had read through Brownson's book and was ready to go, and now she's gone, you know what, that's all wrong,

01:06:04

I've gone over here. Since she hasn't done that, she's saying, I haven't had a doctrinal shift. But the fact is, she had no foundation over here, she made doctrinal statements, and now she's withdrawing from them because the foundation wasn't there and she's been given a new foundation that she can't, she can't say those things anymore, given the new foundation she has, which is coming from this woke movement.

01:06:27

And the woke movement has no basis at all for resisting the homosexual onslaught.

01:06:36

It just doesn't. Critical theory is critical theory, critical theory divides, it never provides a foundation for anything positive.

01:06:45

So, there you go, so the questions that, that I then asked in the article

01:06:52

I put up, so we are, so are we to understand that all of this in the original book is now repeated by Mrs.

01:07:01

Moore? That is, homosexuality is a deadly sexual assault of the evil one in our society, God can deliver from homosexuality,

01:07:08

Satan would shame you into not seeking forgiveness, fullness, and complete restoration of Jesus Christ, complete transformation is possible,

01:07:14

God's Word says complete transformation is possible, Mrs. Moore has witnessed, should be, witnesses need to edit that, has witnessed examples of complete transformation, and plenty of believers have been set free from homosexuality.

01:07:26

All of that is an over -speaking now? That's overshooting

01:07:31

Scripture? That pretty, that answers the questions.

01:07:37

The questions have now been answered. And from my perspective,

01:07:44

I cannot understand why she would not take the time now to simply come out, write some paragraphs, and say, okay, look, since the change has been made in my book, since I've made commentary, let me define, let me straightforward answer these questions.

01:08:08

Here's, here's my perspective. How could you, I don't know what else you could do. I don't know what else you could do.

01:08:14

Looks like you have a, your finger on the rich cam. Well, the rich cam's not gonna go on today, but.

01:08:23

I can't see that. Okay, well, I got a big old gaping wound on my face, and nobody needs to see that. Anyway, I think about what she originally wrote.

01:08:33

As I'm listening to you read it, I'm watching it on the screen on my side here. This morning

01:08:39

I received a phone call, and the contrast from where this man is coming from, what she originally wrote, and now what she's done with it, blows my mind.

01:08:48

Because here we have a guy who calls himself a former homosexual, who is

01:08:54

Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, and he is wrestling with Stephen Anderson's perspective on this.

01:09:05

We talked about Romans 1, 18 through 30. We talked about 1st

01:09:10

Corinthians 6, 9. We went through all of this, and we focused on the concept of, but some such were some of you.

01:09:20

And we talked about the list in 1st Corinthians 6, and all the different things that are grouped there, and how

01:09:27

Stephen Anderson's perspective ignores all of that, and only resides in the Romans 1 category, which isn't addressing what 1st

01:09:36

Corinthians 6 is addressing. We went through all of that, and then the guy made a profession of faith to me, where he had been delivered by God out of homosexuality, and that in fact, he has no desire for that anymore, and is repulsed by it.

01:09:54

But her withdrawing that, she's saying there, you know,

01:09:59

I've seen it. I've seen it. And that's really, you know, you talk about praying and looking at the fruit, well the fruit that's driving this is the fruit of the world, and they're driving the car here, and the idea here is, just as Amazon just pulled that book off, and they'll be pulling mine before long.

01:10:19

Yeah, the point will be, you are only going to be allowed to have our perspective, and that's it.

01:10:26

No other perspective will be allowed otherwise. Otherwise our narrative collapses.

01:10:33

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're right, and people know what you're referring to there. They have removed books from Amazon that promote reparative therapy, the idea that you can cease being homosexual.

01:10:48

And Robert Gagnon has said, well, my books are next, and same -sex controversy lays out that same hope, the hope that Paul pronounces in 1

01:11:00

Corinthians chapter 6. And I mean, you can buy the most horrific filth on Amazon, but you can't buy the gospel saying you can change.

01:11:10

There you go. And there's a situation. By the way,

01:11:16

Pastor Mike Winger, remember Mike Winger? We've done a couple responses to him on Calvinism, but some of you saw the pictures where Mike and I met, actually two days in a row, while I was over at Living Streams, Living Waters.

01:11:29

I keep saying Living Streams because there's a Living Streams church here in the Valley, and a stream has water in it, so it's just, I've got a bad sector in the brain there.

01:11:37

Living Waters, we had lunch together, and people actually took pictures of us sitting next to each other.

01:11:45

Ah! I'm surprised there has not been anything posted someplace about apostate

01:11:52

James White. No, actually, I was talking to someone this morning, not in the

01:11:57

United States, where those doctrinal perfectionists have damaged his ministry.

01:12:05

And one of the things that was, you know, was apostate James White, and my views and things like that.

01:12:10

Anyways, Mike told me he was going to be putting up a video about Stephen Anderson's position on that, and he did.

01:12:20

Have you seen it? No, I haven't. Yeah, look it up, because he played all of Anderson's stuff, and then he responded to it.

01:12:27

And so he told me he was gonna be doing that, and I said, well, and I did link to it, because I told him I would.

01:12:34

So you've got that, and there was one other thing that just crossed my mind. Oh! Michael Brown had an

01:12:42

NIFB guy on his program, and he has made that available separately.

01:12:50

And that guy defended Anderson's, and he got into Anderson's interpretation of 1 Corinthians chapter 6, and why that's not contradictory to Romans 1.

01:12:59

He says 1 Corinthians chapter 6 is only about church discipline issues, and not about homosexuals.

01:13:05

So there's some other resources you could... The thing is, you know, her explanation of all this, and I watched the video that Tom put out,

01:13:14

Tom Buck put out, and you know... Well, that he linked to. Let's not give him more credit than he needs. Let's be careful,

01:13:21

Rich, where you say things. But... I mean, he is a troublemaker, but not that much one.

01:13:27

I just, I think about how easy it was to have a reasoned, calm conversation with a man who actually was hearing, and he's from, he's not new

01:13:38

IFB, he's old IFB, but he's hearing a guy as he sees it in his camp, and he's really troubled by where he stands.

01:13:47

Of course. Because Anderson's got him, and he knows it. He can tell Anderson's got him in the pit of hell. Oh, of course.

01:13:53

And the thing is, I look at what her reasoning for withdrawing that thing, and then

01:14:03

I watched that video, and I think, you know, on both sides of this fence, if you do your ministry by grabbing random thoughts out of thin air, and calling them inspired by the

01:14:16

Holy Spirit, this is what you're gonna get. And yet, in this conversation, it was so easy to simply go to Romans 1, let's work our way through it.

01:14:26

Okay, so here's this side of it, and look at that, and then go to 1st Corinthians 6, and look at the context there, and work our way through it.

01:14:35

There's nothing hardier at all. It's there. It's straightforward. He says, well, but Anderson says the word in 1st

01:14:42

Corinthians 6 isn't homosexual. And I'm looking, well, that's arsenic coitus right there. Look at that. It is.

01:14:47

It is. And the irony is, you want to know what the, in the etymology, the first word that pops up on the definition of arsenic coitus?

01:14:55

Sodomite. Why wouldn't Stephen Anderson talk about that? No, he didn't want to talk about that. But the point is, such were some of you.

01:15:06

There's repentance, and there's hope, and there's deliverance that comes through all of this, but you know what you got to do first,

01:15:13

Beth? You actually have to read it! Well, yeah. And that, I think, is the hard part.

01:15:19

Well, yeah, the problem here is, obviously, there is, there's cultural pressure that has come to bear, and once you get woke, your theology gets broke.

01:15:29

That's just how there is to it. And so, I don't know what

01:15:36

Mrs. Moore is going to do about this, but those two tweets, even giving it the most, the most favorable reading you can, lead us to recognize that there has been a fundamental change in Mrs.

01:15:56

Moore's beliefs. And if you're going, the day of that being irrelevant is past.

01:16:05

This is definitional today in our society in the West. I wish it wasn't, but it is.

01:16:13

She can't dodge it. She can't, she can't keep away from it. One last thing,

01:16:18

I went a little bit longer than I wanted to. I don't know if you've got

01:16:24

Facebook up, but Reform James White Memes for 16A19s just put a picture up that you'll recognize.

01:16:32

Do you see it? It'd be a lot faster to explain it than to type it out, because they've invited caption submissions, which could get dangerous.

01:16:44

First of all, no one's going to recognize who in the world those people are. Well, I know it's not you, but that doesn't look like me either.

01:16:53

But it is me. So those of you, well, can you, can you, here.

01:17:07

That's the best I can do. There we go. Wow. That was before your time,

01:17:14

I think. Yeah, this is probably about 80, it is, yeah, 325

01:17:22

West Pasadena. Those are, there's, see the, right there, are the film machines.

01:17:34

And we have 2662 LDS and 2662 JWS. And eventually we'd get 2662

01:17:41

RCC. But right now you can tell there's only two. And, what?

01:17:50

You know, it's a good thing that that went away. Can you realize how many phone machines with acronyms we'd have to have today?

01:17:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, eventually, I remember, I think, I think it was in your time, eventually, that became a program on a computer.

01:18:09

Yeah, where you could select Christian information system. That's right, the Christian information system.

01:18:15

So we put it all into one number and then developed a Christian information system. We called it the CIS. Yes, that's right.

01:18:23

And we ran that for a while and then the internet came along and killed it all. Yeah, yeah.

01:18:29

But you literally could call one number and then choose the Roman Catholic or the

01:18:35

Jehovah's Witness or the Mormon one. But this is before then. And on Sunday nights, that's me and Mike Belliveau, and we have a script in front of us, and each week we would record a new message.

01:18:54

And those things were popular. About five minutes long. And the

01:19:00

Mormon missionaries, though they weren't supposed to, would call those things all the time.

01:19:06

In fact, that meeting that you and I had with the missionary came about because of the phone lines.

01:19:16

And remember this? Yep, flying across the room. The most amazing experience I've ever had, meeting with a missionary,

01:19:25

Spartan apartment. Was there anything in there other than that beat -up couch that almost ate us?

01:19:33

Yeah. I mean, they're on folding chairs. There's nothing else in this room. And this missionary and his missionary friend.

01:19:43

And they were not paired. They were not paired. They had to deceive their partners to get to meet with us.

01:19:52

And we had already, we had spoken on the phone. So this wasn't our first communication. But they had some more questions to ask.

01:20:00

And we got to a point where we answered all their questions. Well, you know, you've been going through the story of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.

01:20:10

Yeah. And that's when the... Well, and they're not seeing what we're doing here.

01:20:15

But if you know more missionaries, they have a badge, Elder so -and -so over here.

01:20:21

And so imagine this, if you can. There's a missionary. He's sitting in this folding chair.

01:20:28

And Rich and I are over on this, like I said, a couch that... Our knees are already on it. Our knees, there was...

01:20:38

Getting out of it was pretty tough. We were young back then, so we managed it. But the missionary reaches down.

01:20:46

He grabs his name badge, pulls it out and tosses it across the room.

01:20:54

He was sent home the next week. He didn't finish his mission. And that started because of what we're doing right here, where we are recording.

01:21:05

I write up a new message each week. And you could leave your name and address.

01:21:12

And we'd send tracks and stuff to you. And folks, at this point in time,

01:21:18

I was making 400 bucks a month. We were living on 400 bucks a month. And we lived in a little apartment.

01:21:26

My wife worked. She's still working. But that's me and Mike Beliveau, 84 -85.

01:21:37

Yeah, 1984 -1985, somewhere around there. In fact, you can see the book right here or so.

01:21:48

I think that's one of the books on the book of Abraham. And there's my cover to Quad over there.

01:21:59

We had probably already been up to Salt Lake a few times at this point. And we're recording. And so we'd have conversations between Brigham Young and somebody else.

01:22:08

And the most hilarious thing I ever remember, and it may have been this night. What? No matter how hard Mike tried, he could not say

01:22:22

Wilford Woodruff. It kept getting Elmer fudded. And you know how it is, you record and stuff.

01:22:30

You start getting the giggles. And I don't know how long it took us to finally get that one done. Probably was not our best work ever.

01:22:38

But yeah, that's me and Mike Beliveau, mid 80s. So we're talking coming up on 35 years ago.

01:22:46

Yeah, that's how it all started. So let me minimize that there.

01:22:52

So for the reformed James White memes for 1689 teens, there's what's actually going on there. It'll be interesting to see what else is described of that.

01:23:03

But that proves I had hair when this ministry started.

01:23:09

And a lot of it. And a beard. And yeah. And big round glasses.

01:23:15

So yeah. At least I had gotten rid of the 1970s things. At least I finally got that.

01:23:21

But you can see I was blind as a bat too. Those are pretty thick. But yep, that's...

01:23:27

Did we finally throw those machines out? I hope so. Long time ago.

01:23:34

Yeah, there you go. All right. So there you go. Sorry, we spent...

01:23:42

If you tuned in late or something like that, you need to go back. Listen to the first part of the program.

01:23:47

We made an announcement that October of 2020. The dates and everything are on the website theholylandcruise .com.

01:23:58

Alpha Omega Ministries, Apologia Church, Rome, Ephesus, Athens, Israel.

01:24:08

Jeff Durbin and I will be teaching along with others, I would imagine. But we'll be doing the majority of the work teaching.

01:24:16

It's a once -in -a - lifetime opportunity. Another large ministry is doing a similar cruise before us.

01:24:26

They have nearly 300 people on the waitlist, just so you know. So there you go.

01:24:34

Looking forward to that. That's gonna be really super -duper exciting. And today is

01:24:39

Friday, so I will be able to do Tuesday, but then

01:24:45

I leave Colorado on Wednesday. So we'll see what happens. And then the next week is when

01:24:54

I'm with Jeff and we're recording the stuff on Mormonism, so we'll see what happens there too, because I will be traveling during all that.

01:25:00

So things could be a little bumpy for a while, and then we'll definitely be doing programs from up in Colorado, because I'll be there for two weeks, toward the middle and end part of July and into early

01:25:11

August. We'll be up there at high altitude, as we have been for a number of years.

01:25:17

And I will be speaking at Parker Bible Church on the 14th, assuming

01:25:26

I survive the triple bypass on the 13th. And that's a bike ride, not a heart surgery.

01:25:33

Just everybody else freaks out. It's just a little ride, 120 miles in one day, 10 ,500 feet of climbing at altitudes up to 12 ,000 feet above sea level, but that's what

01:25:45

I'll do the day before, so don't expect much in Parker. Actually, I've always had a good time preaching the next day.

01:25:53

And then I am preaching at two different churches in Colorado.

01:25:59

After that, I'll get the information. One of them is a Reformed Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, where I'll be doing a

01:26:11

Friday afternoon session on evangelism at a conference they're having, and I'll also be preaching

01:26:18

Sunday for them. That'll be the first weekend in August, and I'll get you the other information for before that.