F4F | Driscoll and Noble: Where Are They Now?

The Purpose-Driven and Attractional Church Movement

Welcome to another installment of Fighting for the Faith. My name is Chris Roseborough. I am your servant in Jesus Christ, and this is the channel that compares what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God.

Now, some of you are new to Fighting for the Faith, and those of you who've been with us for a long time, especially going back into the podcast archives, know that for decades I have been an outspoken critic of what has been been called the Purpose-Driven Movement, the Seeker-Driven Movement, the Seeker-Friendly, the Attractional Church, and all this kind of stuff, and there's some very foundational reasons why I have been critical of it, and it has everything to do with its primary assumptions.

And I do not think it is a coincidence that four very well-known proponents of the Attractional, Seeker-Driven Church model this would be Perry Noble, Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, Bill Hybels, have all had spectacular, and by spectacular I mean awful, moral failings that have brought them down, and the only one who hasn't been restored or restored himself is Bill Hybels.

But all that being said, what I wanted to do in this installment of Fighting for the Faith, by the way, go ahead and like the video, don't forget to subscribe and all that good, you know, YouTube stuff, but what I wanted to do in this installment of Fighting for the Faith was do a little bit of where are they now.

I wanted to take a close look at Mark Driscoll and Perry Noble. And for those of you who haven't really been paying attention to these fellows, or paid attention to them back when they were at the height of their popularity and power, both these men wielded a lot of power within visible American evangelicalism, and abroad too, internationally as well.

And we'll do a little bit of historical backtracking just so that you can kind of see where some of the problems were, and we'll at where they both are now. And both of these men have restored themselves to ministry.

That's what Mark Driscoll and Perry Noble have in common. Neither men have submitted to proper Church discipline, neither men have actually been properly restored to ministry. These are men who have authority issues, is a good way to put it.

But I want to go back in time, and so let me whirl this up. And this is from 2011. This is the original Elephant Room Conference, where James McDonald invited Stephen Furtick, Perry Noble, Mark Driscoll, and a couple of others to come and discuss the hot topics, discuss the elephant in the room!

So what we're gonna do is we're gonna take a look at, see how well this has aged. This was the conversation between Driscoll and Perry Noble and James McDonald regarding culture in the Church versus Church in the culture.

Now, if you don't historically know what really is going on here, let me explain it this way. The Seeker-Driven Movement, the Attractional Church Model, a few things that it did. Number one is it completely changed the pastoral office into the office of the vision-casting leader.

They brought in a completely different ecclesiastical model. And so rather than having pastors be held accountable to elders and deacons and things like this, no, no, no. The elders and deacons were accountable to the pastor, who claimed to be receiving direct revelation from God, vision from God, that he cast for the purpose of either planting the Church or redefining the Church's mission or whatever.

It comes from God, and so basically these vision-casting leaders operated without any, and I mean any significant that you can even point to, accountability at all. And what this vision-casting model has attracted are power-hungry narcissists, is the best way I can put it.

So all of that being said, but the other bit of it is is that the fundamental presupposition of the Attractional Church is that the reason why pagans don't come to church is because the Bible is irrelevant, and the way the Church has historically conducted itself in its public church services is irrelevant and not attractive to the world.

And so in their rhetoric at the time, and the guys who were the trailblazers were Driscoll and Noble and Furtick and a few others, the rhetoric at the time was that if you are doing church the old-fashioned way, you are doing it because you have prejudiced preferences or because you're selfish, and so you're selfish, and you prefer what you want.

So these vision-casting guys came along, and all of them, to a man would say, God has given me a vision, and the vision is to do church for the unchurched. He's sitting there going, how do you do that?

And so you'll know that this was the rhetoric, because, and their claim is, so if you wanted hymns, if you wanted in-depth biblical preaching, the problem was you. And these men, you know, they typified this, and they were arrogant beyond all reason, they refused to have any meaningful biblical conversation about what they did, and what they were doing, and the whole premise behind it, and how it's false.

By the way, what is the reason why your unbelieving neighbors don't come to church? Do you want to know the reason why they don't come to church? It's because they're unbelievers. I'll talk about that here in a second.

And so Perry Noble and Mark Driscoll, they set about to drag American evangelicalism into cultural relevance, and Perry Noble, and you're gonna hear him discussing this, even went so far as to, about 11 -12 years ago now, to begin an Easter service with ACDC's Highway to Hell.

I'm not making that up, that's what, and they're gonna talk about this, and I just, the arrogance, the condescending they are towards those who hold to what the Bible says, and recognize that this whole approach is off biblically, because its assumptions are wrong, and the people who they set out to punish were Christians.

No joke. The people they set out to punish, and to ridicule, and to, you know, hold up for shame, were people who were standing to their biblical guns going, this isn't right, what you guys are doing.

And so it was just rank-worldliness on their part. But I want you to see the conversation, and we'll go back in history to one of the pastoral conferences that Perry Noble held at Newspring in Anderson, South Carolina.

I was in the audience when he said this, not because I wanted to learn how to do church his way, but because I was doing research at the time. So I was there when he said this. But I want you to listen to this conversation here, and we'll take a look.

Culture in the Church Versus Church in the Culture

At where he is now. Welcome back again to the Elephant Room, we're fired up to be here, and we got another big discussion on the table, and we got two people who can bring it big-time right here, so I'm a little scared.

All right, so Stephen.

Furtick, now probably a modalist, hangs out with heretic T .D. Jakes. We got Harvest Bible Chapel fellow there. And then these three right up front, they all got washed out of ministry on moral grounds.

Now Mark Driscoll has restored himself, Perry Noble has restored himself. James McDonald has been restored by an Assemblies of God church. Yeah, okay. But we're gonna do this right.

Now, we're gonna talk about culture in the church. Now y 'all are both more culture guys than me, so I feel like maybe you're both on the left of how I see this, but I want to listen and I want to learn, and so let's allow for the caricature at the beginning, because we're caricatured all the time.

You're caricatured all the time, Mark. Really? Yeah, I know, I know, I'm sure you're not even.

Aware of that. Yeah, no, I think he was rightly biblically critiqued.

Caricature? No, it's hard to do that with Driscoll. So Driscoll is gonna speak in a minute, but first I want to hear from you, Perry, and I want you just to talk about you, I want you to talk about culture and its importance and how it helps you be, I mean, you got a boom and grow in church, tons of...

You got a boom and, see, it's.

Got to be from God because you got a boom and grow in church. And Perry Noble, I mean, this guy was the trailblazer. So he took Rick Warren's purpose-driven church concepts and applied them like you wouldn't believe, and he was held up as the poster boy of the guy who is succeeding and doing it right, and repugnantly shaking his fist and shaming anybody who would critique him because he grew the fastest-growing church in all of South Carolina.

People coming to Christ,.

Lots of what people would consider pretty relevant, connected stuff going on. Just give us your philosophy on that, why it's important and what you're doing. Yeah,.

I did a... His philosophy, not what the Bible teaches. I did a series of messages back in 2008 on questions that people were asking. I ripped it off of you, by the way. You're welcome. Yeah, it was awesome.

And the illustration I used was my wife and I were going to a gym one day. We were on vacation, we were going to a gym. So we went to this gym, and it was like, okay, we're going to go in there and work out, and we just got to find a parking place.

And there wasn't a parking place. Literally, we drove around this gym three times, and I guess it was God telling us we don't need to work out, we're on vacation. So we went back home. Clearly. But the point was I wanted to go there, but there wasn't a parking place.

And the more I thought about that, I thought about, man, that's a lot of churches. Not all churches, but that's the church. I don't think the world is as anti-church or America is as anti-church as some people say they are.

I just think people are walking in and the church is answering questions that nobody's.

Asking.

All right, so that's...I want you to see this, because this is the fundamental assumption that activates and livens and gives the passion for the whole secret-driven movement. Oh, the church has been out there giving answers to questions that nobody's asking.

So I asked the question earlier, what is the reason that the Bible gives that people do not come to church? Is it because, you know, well, you know, those people in church, they're answering questions I'm not asking.

No, that's not the reason why. So let's take a look at this, by the way, and then along the way we'll answer the question, how does one become a Christian? So the text in front of us is Ephesians chapter 2.

Consider what this says. Paul, writing to the church at Ephesus, reminds them of what they were before they were Christians. And before they were Christians, did these people go to church? No. He says, and you, you were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and we were, watch this, by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So, number one, the reason why unbelievers do not come to your church, the reason why the world isn't at your church service is because they're unbelievers. It's because they are dead in trespasses and sins, and they are by nature children of wrath.

They are hostile to God. In fact, let me find that other text here. I'm gonna do a quick word search, I'm gonna look for the word hostile, and there it is. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God.

It does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot. That's Romans 8, 7. And you'll note, I read it out of context, so let's put some context on this so that you can see what's going on here. So Romans 8, verse 3 says, God has done what the law weakened by the flesh could not do, by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin He condemns sin in the world in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the Spirit, but who walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh, they set their minds on the things of the flesh. That's what unbelievers do. Those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

That's what believers do. To set the mind on the flesh is death. To set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law.

Indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Full stop. So there you go. So what are we seeing here? What we're seeing here is that the reason why unbelievers don't go to your church is because they're by nature objects of God's wrath.

They are dead in trespasses and sins. They are under the dominion of darkness. You kind of get the idea here. And then the Apostle Paul, in Colossians 121, talking to the Christians of the Church of Colossae, said, "...and you who once were alienated and hostile in mind doing evil deeds.".

And again, it's out of context, but if you put it back in context, you'll see that this is exactly what the text is saying. The state of an unbeliever is not neutral towards God. A state of an unbeliever is hostile towards God.

And so that being the case, God is the one who has to turn them around, has to make them alive. If they're dead, God has to raise them. And so if you go back to Ephesians 2, so you know, being dead in trespasses and sin, we were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But you're going to note then at verse 4, God, the word God, this is your noun that's in the nominative in Greek, God is the one doing the verbs here. And so it says, "...God, being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, God made us alive together with Christ.".

Who makes us alive? God does, by grace you have been saved. "...And God raised us up with him, and God seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing.". That's right. You're not a Christian because of you. You're a Christian because God, and it's not your own doing. It is the gift of God.

It is not the result of work so that no one may boast. "...For we are God's workmanship, and we are created in Christ Jesus for good works.". So then the question then is that if we're dead in trespasses and sins and hostile towards God, how does one then go from being dead to being alive in Christ?

Romans 10 will lay this out for us very well, and so you'll note then that this gives us the basis for understanding then how somebody becomes a Christian. So Romans 10, 5, Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them, but none of us do.

But the righteousness based on faith says, "...Do not say in your heart, who will ascend into heaven? That is, to bring Christ down. Or who will descend into the abyss? That is, to bring Christ up from the dead.".

But what does it say? The word is near you, it's in your mouth, it's in your heart. That is the word of faith that we proclaim, because if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and to say that Jesus is Lord is to confess Him as Yahweh of the Old Testament, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you'll be saved.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. So the scripture says, "...and everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame, for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.

For the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing His riches on all who call on Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.". Now this says, this is the result of what happens to all who call on the name of the Lord.

So then how then does one go about doing that? So how then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? Yeah, exactly. So how then are they to believe in Him of whom they've never heard? You see the questions are being asked right here.

And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent, as it is written, "...how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news.". But they have not all obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah says, "...Lord who has believed what he's heard from us.".

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ. So the answer is, is that, how does somebody go from being dead to being alive? God sends people to preach the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of Christ.

Consider then what Paul says in Romans 1, "...I'm not ashamed of the gospel, the good news, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.". Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of Christ.

So you've got a bunch of dead, you've got a bunch of dead neighbors, right? They're dead in trespasses and sins. How then do they go from being dead in trespasses and sins, by nature an object of God's wrath, to being alive in Christ?

Answer, somebody goes and preaches the gospel to them, tells them that they are sinners in need of a Savior, and that the good news is that Christ Jesus, their God and Lord, He was born of the Virgin Mary for them, suffered under Pontius Pilate for them, was crucified, died, buried for them on the third day, rose from the grave for them, and ascended into heaven for them, that He did this so that they can be forgiven and pardoned and have life, and you call them to repent and to trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, and God, through the preaching of the gospel, then raises them to life.

This is how this works, right? This is the normal way in which adults are brought to faith in Jesus. It's through the preached gospel. But the seeker-driven guys, their primary assumption is, not was, is that the reason why your pagan neighbors don't come to church is because you're boring and irrelevant.

Let me back this up so that you can kind of see what it is that Perry Noble is saying here. Here we go.

I don't think the world is as anti-church or America is as anti-church as some people say.

They are. I just think... Well, Romans 8 says they're hostile towards God. Ephesians 2 says they're dead in trespasses and sins. Colossians 1 says they're hostile towards God. So notice the words he said, I don't think.

We're not called to give our opinions or to think something is a particular way. We're supposed to believe what the Scriptures reveal. So no, fundamental assumption for why the whole seeker-driven movement brings culture into the church is based upon a lie that your neighbors, well, they're interested in church.

They're not hostile to God. They're okay with Jesus. No, they're not. Listen again. ...churches, but that's the church.

I don't think the world is as anti-church or America is as anti-church as some people say they are. I just think people are walking in and the church is answering questions that nobody's.

Asking. And so now we know what he just said here is completely diametrically opposed to what the Bible actually says. So the whole fundamental premise behind the seeker-driven movement and their methodology is flawed.

It's 180 degrees backwards from what the Scriptures say.

At the end of the day, nobody cares about the trichotomy and dichotomy of the Spirit. Like, that's not a question burning on the laity's heart. Yeah, that's weird. So note here, he's.

Writing down people who have studied and showed themselves approved, workmen who need not blush with embarrassment, who can rightly handle the Word of Truth, and can discuss very important theological questions and topics.

Yeah, no one needs that, man. They want to know,.

My mother just died or my daughter just died. Does the Bible say anything about that? That's a false dichotomy, by the way. False dichotomy. And so when I talk about engaging culture, I'm talking about engaging them where they are and bringing them to the Word.

I think.

That's... No, actually, I've reviewed a lot of your sermons, Perry. You never rightly handle.

God's Word. I've never seen you do it. I think that's what Jesus did. You don't see Him showing up and saying, open up your... I mean, He did open up the scroll, but not every time. I mean, He's engaging culture, He's going to the parties, He's hanging out with people, He's talking to people.

Now He's twisting the life of Christ to fit with His assumptions. To people about where they are in their life. So if Jesus were alive, if He were doing His ministry today, all right? You know, if Jesus had been born of the Virgin Mary, you know, 30 years ago, and now He's starting His ministry.

Would Jesus be starting His services, His teaching time with praise and worship by ACDC's.

Highway to Hell? Yeah, He always brings it back to Him because that's who He is. But I think that's what we do in the Bible. We engage people where they are, but then we bring them to the Word of.

God. All right, talk about the culture, some of the things you're doing culturally to connect.

With that. Well, we started out Easter a couple years ago with Highway to Hell by ACDC, and it...

The Reform guys loved that, by the way. They did, man. It was a big deal. A lot of them are still.

Really grateful. Yeah, at the time, a lot of people offered valid biblical criticism of opening a church service with ACDC's Highway to Hell. That has no place when the body of Christ comes together for the purpose of hearing the Word of God, worshiping God, or receiving the Lord's Supper.

ACDC has no place in the body of Christ, no function at all, and people offered valid criticism. And notice how they're just, those idiot guys, you know, they're still angry about it, man. Right. And again, I've already proven to you that his fundamental assumption, 180 degrees backwards of what the Scripture says.

They just need to understand. I was predestined to do it. Before the foundations of the earth, God obviously wanted that to happen. Those guys freak out, and God obviously wanted it to happen.

So everything that happens, God wanted it.

Yeah, I'm sure. Whatever.

Yeah, you kind of get the point. Now I'm going to play this. I was in the audience when he said this. This is Anderson, South Carolina, the Unleash Conference. I forget the exact year. And you'll note that, so in the seeker-driven way of thinking, in-depth biblical preaching is something that keeps your pagan neighbors who are open to church, they're not hostile to God, according to him.

So in-depth biblical preaching and teaching keeps them away, and it's a selfish thing to ask for. In-depth praise and worship time with deep theologically meaningful hymns, that's also driving your neighbors away.

And so this is him going on a rant, going off on his critics, and listen to what he says.

He said, Perry, what about the jackass in the church? The jackass in the church is the person that always screams, I want to go deeper. You know what I tell people that say that around here? You're only as deep as the last person you served.

You want to talk deep? Let's go check your tithing record and see how deep you are. Deep? Deep? John Maxwell said it. Most Christians are educated way beyond their level of obedience anyway. What you're really saying is you want me to stand on the stage and confuse the heck out of you so you don't have to apply what I teach.

On Sundays. I could do that. No, nobody's saying that at all. And you'll note then that he thinks that in-depth biblical teaching is only good for obedience. Does he understand that we're saved by grace through faith alone?

I want more worship. You got six other days. Yeah, don't come to church expecting worship. By the way, who's in the audience here? Not New Spring Church. The people in the audience are vision-casting, seeker-driven pastors who've flown in or driven in from all over the country and a few people from around the world to study from him how to do church.

If you were.

Full of Jesus. When you walked in here, it wouldn't matter to you how much we sang. All right, so you.

Get the idea there as well. Now, I would also point out that Driscoll bought into this methodology, hook, line, and sinker, and the audio that you're about to hear, I was the one who released this and brought it out to the world on my podcast years ago.

It's still up in my podcast archives. I was the guy who followed up on a hot lead regarding this audio, and so the original clip, it was first aired on the podcast of Fighting for the Faith. And I want you to consider the complete condescension that Mark Driscoll has towards the other leaders and people at Mars Hill.

What you're going to hear, if you haven't already heard this, is just deplorable. And Mark Driscoll, just so you know, he was going to be put under discipline at Mars Hill because of his abusive way in which he treated other people, which is kind of tip of the iceberg.

The presenting issue, though, was when he went on the Janet Metford program after one of his resurgence books came out, and she confronted him regarding his plagiarism. And then it was revealed that practically all the Mark Driscoll books that were ever published had huge parts of them that he just flat-out plagiarized, flat-out plagiarized from other Christian authors.

And then on top of that, it was discovered and learned that he had paid money from the Church's coffers to buy his way onto the New York Times bestseller list. By the way, Perry Noble did the same thing.

Perry Noble also bought his way onto the New York Times bestseller list. And then when all of that was kind of rattling around in the public eye, other people came forward and talked about how they had been abused and mistreated by Mark Driscoll.

So let's go down memory lane, shall we?

Vision Casting, Abuse, and the Mars Hill Collapse

Here's what I've learned. You cast vision for your mission, and if people don't sign up, you move on. You move on. There are people that are going to die in the wilderness, and there are people that are going to take the hill.

That's just how it is. Too many guys waste too much time trying to move stiff-necked, stubborn, obstinate people. I am all about blessed subtraction. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.

You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options, but the bus ain't going to stop. And I'm just a guy who is like, look, we love you, but this is what we're doing. There's a few kind of people.

There's people who get in the way of the bus, they got to get run over. There are people who want to take turns driving the bus,.

They got to get thrown off. This has nothing to do with the duties of the pastoral offices laid out in Scripture. And so Driscoll was a big proponent and early adopter of the whole vision casting leader thing, which by the way, I've done a lecture on this.

That vision casting leader model, you know where it comes from? Yeah, it's from fascistic thinking. I'm not making that up.

We continue. Because they want to go somewhere else. There are people who will be on the bus, leaders and helpers and servants. They're awesome. There's also just sometimes nice people who sit on the bus and shut up.

They're not helping or hurting. Just let them ride along. You know what I'm saying? But don't look at the nice people. They're just going to sit on the bus and shut their mouth and think, I need you to lead the mission.

They're never going to. At the very most, you'll give them a job to do and they'll serve somewhere and help out in a minimal way. If someone can sit in a place that hasn't been on mission for a really long time, they are by definition not a leader.

And so they're never going to lead. You need to gather a whole new core. I'll tell you guys what, too. You don't do this just for your church planting or replanting. I'm doing it right now. I'm doing it right now.

We just took certain guys and rearranged the seats on the bus. Yesterday, we fired two elders for the first time in the history of Mars Hill. Last night, they're off the bus, under the bus. They were off mission, so now they're unemployed.

I mean, this will be the defining issue as to whether or not you succeed or fail. I've read enough of the New Testament to know that occasionally,.

Paul puts somebody in the wood chipper, you know? Yeah, I don't even want to react to that at this point. I think it speaks for itself. Now, a little bit of a note here. So, Driscoll had a spectacular collapse.

So, everything came to a head all at once. The fact that he bought his New York Times bestseller list, that he has an extremely abusive leadership model, that he boasted about the pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and all that kind of stuff.

So, what ended up happening is all of this stuff came to a head, and there was some kind of accountability board within the framework of Mars Hill. And so, they decided that it was time to rein him in.

It was time to bring him under discipline and get him some help and remove him from being the vision casting leader for a season. And rather than submit himself to discipline and get the help he needs, Mark Driscoll claimed that he received a direct revelation from God and that God told him that it was a trap.

Yeah, I'm not making that up. Let's take a look at that. Here's his interview with Brian Houston from June of 2015.

You detailed a fair bit about mistakes you had made and offenses that you had caused.

Mistakes? Those are egregious sins we're talking about here. You know, like taking church money to buy your way onto the New York Times bestseller list, gaming the system, plagiarizing other Christian authors' works, and passing it off as your own.

That's stealing. That's not a mistake. That's not a slipsie. That's not an oopsie doopsie. Those are huge breakings of major.

Commandments. And did you feel like that was received by people? I never got to say goodbye.

To the church and the people. And so, what went? So, watch what he does here. He's now going to.

Make himself out to be the victim. Public was actually the resignation letter that went to the legal governing board that was in authority over me. And so, I know under the circumstances that there wasn't a way to do that that would have been clean or easy.

I don't have any criticism of the board. I think for the people, it meant there wasn't closure. And we didn't get to say anything. And we didn't expect to resign. I met with the board. There was a whole list of things that were charged by current and former leaders.

And there was an internal governance struggle and threats of legal action. And it got very complicated. And a lot of it was anonymous.

Through the internet. So, you don't know who is saying or doing what. Yeah. I could tell you the names. I got it off the internet too. And I've talked to him personally. And so, I invited the.

Board to do a full examination, interview anybody, anything. And we would submit to whatever verdict.

That they determined. So, no. They said they would submit to whatever their board determined.

When I think about eight weeks, we met Friday and Saturday, October 10th and 11th. I remember because the 11th was my birthday. And so, Grace and I were present with the board. And they said, we see in your history of leadership, less in more recent years, but particularly in the past,.