James Walks into a Christian Bookstore and gets Purpose Driven

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

Participation. If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Comments, Iraq, and the Christian Bookstore

And good morning and welcome to the dividing line. It is a Tuesday morning these mornings sneak up on me. I'm not sure about anybody else, but I walked into the office a while back and Rich is sitting there at the soundboard.

I go. Oh, yeah, it's Tuesday, isn't it? I Sometimes lose track. I was up till actually early this morning. Finishing up preparations to write today on the Dave Hunt book and what I mean by that is it.

Took so long between the last round and this round that I had to go back and reread everything so basically I had to read the whole book and mark stuff and go okay, I've addressed this this this this and.

And. That then puts me in the position to be able to write now and say okay I've already addressed this this and this what's new here. This is what I need to address, etc, etc. And that's what we're gonna be doing the rest of the day, but not for the next hour.

I've never tried writing and doing a webcast at the same time. I'm not sure that that would really be a wise thing to attempt to do actually so not going to do that. Our phone number here is eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

That is toll-free. And I suppose that probably most folks your mind is on national affairs. About what is it? I don't know 30 some odd hours on the deadline. For war with Iraq, and I think that's pretty much a done deal and Who knows how long it's gonna last and all the rest that stuff.

I don't know about you. But right now I am very glad that my two main vehicles one is a 1991 Geo Metro and the other is a 1986 Yamaha Virago 1100 both of which get between 45 and 48 miles to the gallon.

So that gets me. What about 24 miles per dollar? We're looking at about now. Right now those folks folks driving by in those big old SUVs. You know, they're the have you noticed they're accelerating real slowly recently.

That's big guys with those big old honking 450 trucks, you know, they ain't exactly flying away from stoplights. Amazing how how the the wallet can teach you just a little bit of a little bit of humility and maturity.

And you sit there and you watch that thing going ding ding ding ding ding. Wow. Look how fast it can go that's about as fast as the electric meter runs in June in Phoenix. It's just an amazing thing. Anyways, that's what probably most folks are talking about.

So that's why I'm not going to talk about if you want to talk about Iraq. There are about a hundred and forty seven thousand talk shows today where you can call in and talk about Iraq. So you you go ahead and do that and no, I'm not going to sit here and discuss whether Iraq is Babylon and tie its Revelation if you want to do that tune in TBN.

Yeah, I'm not going to do that either. But anyways. Actually, I saw on the Reformed Baptist discussion list an article this morning that I found Very interesting and I thought I would read it. It is from the I've never seen this before it is by Chris Lehman and that name sounds very very very familiar to me and.

But I liked what it had to say. I thought it brings up some good points. And so I thought I would Read it and because I think you'd find it somewhat interesting at least provocative even if you don't agree with everything it has to say hey, at least it'll get you get you thinking and Especially because it touched a Touched a chord with me.

I I walked into a Christian bookstore recently and I normally don't do that. I'll admit I When I need if I need something and I don't need it for a few days. I'll get online. I mean, that's just how I Handle a lot of stuff because I just do it.

It's gone. It comes a few days later and I'm back doing what I need to be doing and that's just how I you know. People how do you do all the stuff you do? Well, that's that's one of the one of the reasons anyways, I walked into a Christian bookstore because I needed a card and it's hard to get hold of a Christian card.

And let you know online or something like that and normally you wait until the last second to get one anyway, so it really doesn't help a whole lot and. So I walked into Christian bookstore and I got the card that was pretty easy.

And then I started walking around a little bit and I started checking out the books because this was a store that I don't know. Four or five years ago. Yeah five six years ago used to have some decent stuff in it, I mean the manager actually tried to get the Some decent material in there some some Puritans some good writing and things like that and.

But that manager is long gone. It's been bought out by somebody else and and this place is now truly CBA style Christian bookstore feel good evangelicalism, you know 47 miles wide one-quarter of an inch thick and.

So I'm walking up and down the book aisles and man. Not only are the bookshelves real short. But all the books are facing you so in other words There's you know. It doesn't take many books to fill these bookshelves when the books are flat against the back and there's only a couple of them.

You know, you're reading the very front of the book. You see the very front of the book and I know you have to do that to sell books and all the rest of stuff. But the point is there's there wasn't a whole lot there and as I'm going up and down the the aisles I'm just looking at this stuff and it is Fluff.

I mean we're there was not enough serious stuff on the shelves this place to to Even begin to to get blood into your brain. Okay. I mean it was just oh horrible, but what I found all over the place shelves and shelves and stacks and stacks is The purpose driven and then fill in the blank.

The purpose driven life and the purpose driven church and the purpose driven this and the purpose driven that Rick Warren's name. Everywhere just just all over the place. And so when I saw this Review of Rick Warren's most recent book.

Yeah the purpose driven pocketbook. Anyways, I buzz. I think you may be right if we're talking. Yep, same road you're on so mean you you got that one, correct? Anyways, this is called the book of numbers Rick Warren's purpose driven attack on American Christianity by Chris Lehman posted Monday, March 17th 2003 at 1133 a .m.

So this is only 1108 right now specific times. This is less than 24 hours old, but I found this to be rather thoughtful. So I thought I would read it to you. Maybe that'll get some folks to start thinking about things and maybe call in at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one I quote Rick Warren is the greatest Christian success story now going his Baptist Fellowship.

The Saddleback Valley Community Church in California is by most reckonings the second largest church in the country with a congregation of more than 16 ,000 that's three zero there. Like Billy Graham before him Warren has staked out a role as spiritual counselor to our nation's leaders.

He was among a select panel of advisors. President George W Bush consulted for discussion and prayer as he prepared his speech commemorating the first anniversary of the September 11th attacks on New York and Washington.

It's not hard to see why Warren is commanding such attention from the corridors of power and the culture at large. He preaches a big broad expansion minded gospel perfectly sued to a restlessly growth minded American audience.

His breakout best-selling book the purpose-driven Church was a manual for ecclesiastical growth strategies in an age when Protestant belief remains high. But many congregations report flagging church attendance.

His congregation which originated in 1980 and Warren's own living room in Orange County's Mission Viejo today resembles a middle-aged suburban rave more than a traditional house of worship. Jumbotron captions above the pulpit and a cross free altar to allow for an unobstructed view of quick change.

Music acts listener friendly sermons in which the garrulous Warren holds forth on modern life topics such as career stress and status seeking. Worship is a lifestyle as one of Warren's catchphrases and his Southern California ministry founded deliberately to woo wayward overworked boomers into the fold is lifestyle incarnate.

And Warren has a powerfully emotional Backstory of his gospel of growth as he recounts in a new book the purpose-driven life his audience. Multiplying ministry was inspired by a scene at the deathbed of his father a tremendously driven Baptist minister who had launched 150 churches across the world as Warren's dad seemed about to succumb.

He shot up and struggled to get out of bed repeating got to save one more for Jesus. Nearly a hundred times in his dying hour. He turned it into a directive to his son save one more for Jesus. While we might feel a reflexive distrust of Warren's Elmer Gantry style religious monumentalism There's nothing inherently dishonorable about such recruitment tactics.

Aggressive proselytizing is indeed one of the core distinguishing features of Christianity dating back to the Apostle Paul. And Spiritual salesmanship has a long history in the pluralist marketplace of American religion.

British revivalist George Whitfield and the great Connecticut divine Jonathan Edwards both set the country on an early course of soul harvesting awakenings. It would be unfair in other words to cast Warren is merely an unscrupulous Evangelist on the make in the mold of say Amy Semple McPherson or the fallen Pentecostal power couple of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker Warren has objured the most basic outlet that such operators sees upon a Televisual ministry nor is his cross denominational dedication to outreach work typical of Baker types either.

Most elements of his wide-ranging ministry are accompanied by the proviso to reach across traditional lines of sect and denomination. But while Warren has definitely deftly outfitted the Old Baptist Creed to the new centuries info based and excerpts sprawling spiritual market his actual message does a subtle violence to the rigors of belief in Demanding so much of growth minded Christian ministries.

He winds up demanding too little of his fervently recruited believers. The purpose-driven life is Warren's effort to consolidate the brand he's built out of church growth advocacy. Instead of aiming the book at practicing Christians or fellow pastors as he did with the purpose-driven Church and continues doing his website pastors .com Warren is seeking to engage with a non-believing or Languidly believing person in spiritual crisis and his business-like bullet-pointed style is meeting with success.

The purpose-driven life is the number seven best-selling book of nonfiction in the country. According to a publisher's weekly list released on March 3rd and has sold in advance a rather astonishing 500 ,000 copies.

But any reader who comes to the book expecting a wrenching narrative of a soul's halting progress toward faith will be disappointed. Warren rather abruptly clears away the dramatic climax of most faith narratives the crowning moment of conversion and rebirth into the spirit.

His play for the reader's soul is briskly delivered early in the book and we quote here. Wherever you are reading this I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity.

Jesus. I believe in you and I receive you if you sincerely meant that prayer. Congratulations. Welcome to the family of God and quote. It doesn't feel like a life-shaking epiphany so much as like having someone hand you his business card.

Warren stands apart from his evangelical forebears in another important respect at no point. Does he place the newly minted believer at odds with the secular world's imperfect schemes of justice and reward?

Historically even mildly prophetic Christian revivalists has stressed the mandate of broad social reform and more fiery ones have triggered full-blown Crusades from abolitionism and temperance down through the latter-day civil rights and anti-abortion movements in Warren's hands.

However, God seems keen to promote more of a Kiwanis level social activism. Quote. You may be given a godly passion for reaching a particular group of people with the gospel. Businessmen teenagers foreign exchange students young mothers are those they particular hobby or sport end quote.

Of course, not every revivalist faith needs to be driven by social commitment. A lot of mainline Protestant churches are losing members precisely because they seem Tediously bent on advertising their own social righteousness.

Nevertheless There is something important missing from a faith and envisions God directing his servants to settle down among Narrow-casted groups of exchange students or hobbyists or Sunday athletes.

Longtime observers the evangelical scene speculate that the softness behind the cell helps explain Warren's appeal to the Western White House Mark silk who directs Trinity College's Leonard E Greenberg Center for the study of religion public life Says ministries like Warren's have a special appeal for an administration where quote everything is that as Extraordinarily faith-based not just social service programs and quote So also suggest that Bush well understands that Warren's brand of feel-good evangelism plays Well with the mass audience that comes with the bully pulpit of the presidency.

It's a way of doing Evangelicalism for people who get scared when they hear it in its unvarnished form this rather than the abundance of marketing techniques and showman gimmicks and Inflect Warren's style of self-presentation is the most troubling feature of Warren's purpose-driven approach.

It has historically been the nature of the Christian God to be something of an unstinting taskmaster. Warren's God wants to be your best friend and This means in turn that God's most daunting property the exercise of eternal judgment is strategically Downsized.

When Warren turns his utility minded feel-speak upon the symbolic iconography iconography of the faith the results are Offensively pathetic when Jesus stretched his arms wide on the cross. He was saying I love you this much but God needs to be Greater than a group hug.

Surely we lose something if we apprehend the Bible in the language of faith as little more than a lesson book. If you're not preaching the applicant if you're not preaching life application Warren has told one interviewer you're not really preaching.

Yet if you're only believing in life application, what are you really believing? So writes Chris Lehman on the slate on MSN is the is the location for this particular? Article and I found it interesting as I said in light of the Fact that this book is all over the place.

I forget where I was I was traveling somewhere over the past number of months and I just remembered in passing speaking with someone at one of the places I was I was speaking and They made mention. I don't even think they were talking to me.

I think we were walking out the door and I heard a conversation between two folks and It was on how they were the church was just about to start this program that Rick Warren had it it was you know he had these special meetings and there were these books and and It was taking place all across the nation and pretty much the English-speaking world and and you know trucks were pulling up these churches with all these books and delivering them and everybody's could be reading the same thing and yada yada yada and I I just I Caught that and I thought about it.

And of course what I was thinking of was What would it take? for something like that to happen where the discussion was not handling stress in your life and the discussion was was not successful financial planning for the 21st century, but the subject was understanding Loving and being passionate about the relationship of the Trinity to the gospel and the cross.

You know something like that and a lot of folks are laughing hysterically now I understand that but that was what I was thinking. And I I thought of of the tremendous works that that are available today.

I'm not talking about my own from from great thinkers and people who are still passionate about the truth and I go 500 ,000 copies. I don't think so that's the that's the kind of press run that makes a Publisher just go touching touching touching.

But that's not the kind of press run that you see going on for that kind of book. That's going to address for example being passionate about the Trinity and seeing the relationship of the Father Son and Spirit to the gospel.

And and all the rest that kind of stuff. No, that's that's the kind of press run you get for fiction Christian fiction you get it for Obviously for the left-behind series and all the rest that kind of stuff.

That's that's where you you encounter that kind of stuff. You don't see that kind of a press run for for real good books anymore, and that makes me go. And you know makes me sigh a little bit, and you know what do you think eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one?

I'm not looking for a wine fest about About The seeker sensitive movement and so much as as meaningful insights into what it tells us about the church what it tells us about the the state of the church the the perspectives of evangelicals today and What happens to old churches like this?

Has anyone ever thought about that. I I've haven't given it as much thought as I probably should. But have you started to notice? These big churches that were real big a while back, but they're not real big anymore.

Is there anything sadder than these these? Monuments that have been built that are now filled to one-quarter capacity and. And you know people just rattle around in these big honking places, and there's just nobody there.

Why isn't there much discussion about that and what does that tell us? What is it that does it tell us anything? I mean certainly I understand that you know sometimes there are Economic changes there are population changes there there are buildings that were built in places when a you know a town may have been booming at one point and then The The boom goes away, and the church gets smaller.

That's that's fully understandable, but that's what I'm talking about. We don't hear a lot of discussions about the huge places that were built with multi-million dollar budgets and and now today Barely exist Churches being bought out and turned into schools being turned into You know shopping malls or something else.

And what does that tell us about what that church wasn't was in fact built upon in the first place and let me throw another? Little little ditty out into the mix as You all are rushing to your phones to call eight seven seven seven five three three three four and eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

The Rick Warren is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and so I hear a lot about him. Since I have connections with all sorts of folks in that in that particular context and You know this the purpose-driven Church and the purpose-driven this that and the other thing I'm sure eventually like the prayer of Jabez will see the the purpose-driven journal and the purpose-driven musical CD and the purpose-driven coffee mug and the purpose-driven t-shirt and the purpose-driven bumper sticker and The purpose-driven little fishy on the back of the bumper and all the rest that fun stuff that that always comes eventually, but anyways It is within the Southern Baptist Convention that the average pastorate lasts for 18 months 18 months.

Now obviously I have a problem with that. First of all I believe In a plurality of elders and so the whole idea That is prevalent in most Southern Baptist churches of a single pastor a bunch of deacons who act like elders and Then a staff of allegedly ordained ministers, but not really ministers.

I don't see that as being the ideal situation. I don't see it as being the biblical organization, but still the the fact that that ministers move around so much and That instead of there being an organic connection between the elders and the people.

The position of quote-unquote pastor is more of a CEO In and CEOs in especially large corporations come and go and you basically determine The the CEO position on performance. In essence you examine the pastor you you put the pastor you you have You have these Guidelines.

I Can't really see a whole lot of difference Between the graphs and charts that are used in the corporate boardroom and saying look here's our growth figures. Here's we projected. Here's what I see where our CEO is taking us either he gets a bonus because we've done better or we're on target so he gets his regular stuff or Since we're below you're gone.

You're out of here. You're fired. We're bringing somebody else in sort of like the coach of a NBA team or a National Baseball League team or whatever it might be. That's how the pastor is viewed and that's what gives rise to the idea of a pastor only being in a church for 18 months and Hence, what kind of preaching is that pastor going to do if that's the standard by which she's being judged?

Is It is it any wonder that that such an individual is probably not even going to give consideration to preaching a series on the doctrine of the Trinity or In some way shape or form Trying to grow the church and godliness because you know what happens when you preach that stuff you offend people and If you actually want to stay there a while you can't offend anybody.

Especially when you're you're in essence not called by God to serve in that place as the shepherd of the sheep. But you're called by the congregation based upon their good pleasure. To meet certain growth and money goals buildings and programs and and things like that and If you think that I'm getting down on these pastors, they're the ones I really feel for I know these folks.

I talk with them on a regular basis and Many of them feel burned out. Many of them feel oh there is a purpose-driven life city. Thank you very much. And if anyone would find it it would be Ian there is already see I told you it's coming.

I didn't know that but it's there I meet with these folks. I talk with these folks and and I'm I'll admit some folks Don't like the fact that I ended up, you know teaching them in a class or something because when I introduced them to such issues as as The elders responsibility for God as the primary thing and the the need of sound theology and the only way you can actually Grow believers is to see them grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it's a it's a spiritual thing.

It's not a pragmatic thing. And what's the purpose of the church and all the rest of stuff and and dare introduce folks to the church shrinkage movement? Which normally happens and you preach the truth?

All of that stuff. They sit there going man, how I want to teach and preach this way. But but I'm in a situation where that's not what the church wants and if I dare try to introduce them them to it since I went through seminary and Bible College and I've got a $75 ,000 student loan sitting on my back.

I have to make X amount of dollars each week each month. To to you know, keep house and home together. How can I do this? I can't do this. I know the frustration. I really do know the frustration and It you know, there's lots of things we can say about that, but I I'm not picking on on the pastors.

I'm just looking at this and going hey. It seems to me that all these things feed on one another and as the article said what's the result of? This this purpose-driven church concept is you know You've got to if you're going to use those types of methodologies to bring people in you're gonna have to change your message.

You're gonna have to change the standards and the issue of discipleship and growth within the Christian life has got to be addressed and in essence, you're not going to be able to take a Biblical perspective on that because you're not going to be able to call for godliness because that's too radical and If you brought people in without the radical message of the gospel, you can't expect them to then accept radical message of living a life separate under God the radical Christian worldview.

Instead you get the non-radical Christian worldview, which of course is an oxymoron. It doesn't work. But that's what you get and That's one of the main reasons that even amongst those who would consider themselves to be conservative evangelicals.

The voice of the church is so quiet and weak. Well We have one phone line taken up and that leaves room for some others at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. We're gonna take our break and be right back right after this.

Ministry, Bookstore Culture, and the Purpose-Driven Movement

Try to save your soul from death. It's all works right just in a manufactured grace by weeping.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God. James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a Omin .org. What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios.

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant.

In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded.

Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate. James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Caller Discussion: Seeker Sensitivity, Ecclesiology, and Church Growth

It gets ugly when the uber geeks start displaying at one another, you know, remember those What was a Mountain Dew commercials where the guy? I don't know how they did it took on the the Bighorn sheep, you know, and they bang around ram their heads together, you know and all that stuff and he goes stumbling off Once he gets his Mountain Dew.

Well, that's sort of what what's going on here in channel right now. Our two uber geeks are Are displaying at one another as to who can get the most URLs in the channel as finding? Purpose-driven coffee mugs and t-shirts and tote bags.

It's really funny and then someone came up with a really really good good line here For a new a new book titled the prayer of Jabez for purpose-driven people left behind. I like that that that would that would sell well, that would be somewhat like Yeah, tectosterone, there's there's a lot of tectosterone going on.

Tectosterone that's that's a scary thing. Well, anyways Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one didn't mean to get us completely off of the track there. We've been talking a little bit today about the purpose-driven something or other.

For the Jabez the purpose-driven people who are left behind. I I think that's that's very very good. Anyways eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one, let's go ahead and Take some phone callers so you don't have to listen to me droning on for the entire hour.

Then again, if you're listening you did so voluntarily anyways. So, you know, oh Yeah. Well, you know there is something on the sheet of paper I'm filling out about humility. I think I need to change what I put down there.

Anyways, someone channel will get that. Let's go ahead and talk to our first caller from somewhere back in South Carolina Carolina where they sort of just talk like this just a little bit in Taylor, South Carolina.

Let's talk to Julie. Hi Julie.

I talked with Joe and Katie the other night on I Tell back and I mentioned the fact that I am utterly resisting talking like well.

Why cuz then if you go just a little bit farther south you'll be able to start talking like like some preachers down there in Georgia and You'll be able to then that then you can. In fact last night. I was mentioning that someone who remained nameless.

I was Helping them with a Latin pronunciation and someone suggested all they need to do is just Pronounce it like you wouldn't George and nobody would care less one way or the other so. Anyways, that's not that's not our topic for the day.

What I actually wanted to call in about was you know, you were mentioning a lot about the purpose-driven and the speaker friendly type of environment and Well, I'm not whining about. I'm actually I have I've said before to some people that I am a refugee of the mega church scenario.

I spent most of my Christian life in these huge mega churches that were purpose-driven and everything like that. And One of the observations that I've made a lot With the with the churches was especially now comparing it With being in a solid reform Baptist Church was two things stuck out at me.

Number one was how shallow a lot of the messages that you received there was. And Number two was the fact that you always sort of felt like a faith in the crowd. You didn't even know most of the time who the elders were let alone being able to approach the pastor about anything.

It was almost as though you had inner inner inner circle to get to the pastor. Especially the the church that we That we left before we went to a great Baptist Church. To give you any kind of an indication as to what this says about the state of the church I was getting interested in reformed theology and I wanted to talk to my pastor about it.

And I mentioned to him that I was doing some studies in the five solace and When I said, you know, what would you recommend. He got this kind of blank look on his face and he said, oh, yeah like I saw a scriptura and those kinds of things right.

And I just kind of Point and I said, um, yeah. He never really did get back to me about this. Yeah.

Yeah, I've I actually have have been there myself I was a part of a very large church and I had some wonderful times. I was I was married in a very large church, but one of the things that I began noticing early on Once I became an adult was one of the things that I never did understand was every year all of the Bible study groups were broken up and everybody was was was put someplace else and I it was a traumatic time for everyone because you had developed friendships.

You had been engaged in activities you had done teaching and then all sudden boom. It's it's a whole new group of people and you it's it's like the first week You're you're like you're in a strange place again.

And I finally eventually found out what the idea behind it was the leadership of the church recognized that over the course of time basically little churches Would develop within each one of those Bible study classes because you will become Attached to and begin to look to leadership from those who are the leaders that you actually have contact with and it's so what Eventually would happen is you'd have you know 300 little churches and it just happens that everybody Goes to the same place to sing hymns and listen to the choir sing and to get a sermon but the actual ministry the actual Interaction and and learning to live with people was taking place in those little groups.

And so what they had to do so those to not create 300 little pastors in essence was to break those little churches up every year and start all over again, and it was extremely unnatural and And and and very you know very troubling that that had to be taking place on ongoing basis now I recognize a number of these churches.

They say see the need for the personal fellowship, and they have these home fellowships and all the rest of stuff. I personally have mused more than once I wonder if there isn't a maximum size for a church I mean It just strikes me that that as I read the New Testament There's there's this you know this relationship That's supposed to exist between the shepherd and the sheep and when the shepherd is in essence asked to be a CEO over a flock of 16 ,000 there's just no way that he can have relationship with 16 ,000 people and so he has to end up creating a whole nother tier of under shepherds beneath him and then beneath them there's more and more and more and Hence you you end up with this massive Structure that has to be supported financially and and no matter what happens that person at the top ends up being somewhat isolated from the regular life of Individuals.

I was when we were at that large church. I knew that there was the man who preached who was called the pastor however. Then there was the staff Ministers who met with the families in crisis who did the funerals who did the weddings who did the counseling?

They were the real pastors as far as actually doing the the you know the day-to-day living work and That they were you know they were the ones you actually saw you knew you knew you could come to with your problems And and pray with them and so on so forth you knew there was no way you were ever getting in to see the big guy.