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IRON SHARPENS IRON Radio’s 2 guests for TODAY:
Jenny Reese Clark & Chaplain Caleb Schumacher: “The Ex-METH DEALER & the ARMY CHAPLAIN: A Marriage Made in Heaven!”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.
And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Labor Day on this fifth day of September 2016, the last day of Labor Day weekend, and what better way to spend Labor Day weekend than to have your radios or your laptops or your computers with your speakers up full blast listening to Iron Sharpens Iron while you grill up those burgers and hot dogs and chicken wings and everything else that you eat.
And I am delighted today to have back on the program a former guest and also another guest for the very first time and I'm speaking of Jenny Reese Clark who has been on this program prior to today and also Caleb Schumacher, Chaplain Caleb Schumacher, who is on for the first time today.
They are husband and wife and they have a remarkable story to tell about how they met, fell in love, and got married and and vowed themselves before our Lord God and Savior in the covenant of marriage and we have titled our program today the Ex-Meth Dealer and the Army Chaplain, A Marriage Made in Heaven.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both to Iron Sharpens Iron, Jenny Reese Clark and Chaplain Caleb Schumacher. Good afternoon Chris. Hi. How are you doing? And by the way Caleb, am I pronouncing your last name correctly?
You're right on. Oh great. Usually people have trouble with that but you hit it right on so good job. Well before we go to Jenny and her story, since we already had her on and by the way for those of you listening you could hear Jenny Reese Clark's testimony on the Iron Sharpens Iron program archive.
If you go to ironsharpensironradio .com and type in the search engine for the older programs or podcasts Jenny Reese Clark, R-E-E-S-E Clark with no E at the end, you can hear that program. If you download it you could also go to jennyreeseclark .com, her own website.
But before I go to Jenny to recount or summarize her testimony that she already gave on this program earlier, I want to hear something about Caleb, her husband. First of all Caleb, when did you come to know Christ?
What kind of an upbringing did you have in regard to religion and when was it that you really believed the Lord rescued you and brought you to himself, adopted you,.
And made you one of his children? I grew up in a and I went to an eager beaver club, you know, as a little kid understanding that I needed to be asked for forgiveness from Jesus for my sins and so I went forward, I prayed, but I can tell you that, you know, when I was 15 in my in my home and my family growing up, there was, you know, between relationships and so I realized at that point that, yeah, even though I'd asked the Lord, you know, into my life as a little child, that I needed to dig a little deeper.
I had a youth pastor who's now a camp counselor up in Camp Ferry, Wisconsin. He was the one who stepped into my life and helped me really work out my, be active, realizing that I had to be proactive with my family situation, I think, that I needed to do something beyond just that I needed to reach out and impact other people.
I was at a camp, 17-year-old and 18-year-old summers. I was at a camp, I led those kind of speeding up things and so I was weeping about it and yet I said, Lord, please fill me with your love so completely that it would overflow.
I would speak his love into the hearts at that point even when I would say that's been kind of my journey. And if you could even.
Back up a little bit to your interest in joining the military and also a chaplain, to become a.
Chaplain. Well, that meant that I wanted more. I wanted to do more for the Lord. Online, I was trying to see if there was something that would fit for me and my wife at the time. I mean, she was a pastor.
I think she was, you know, she had been through a lot as a PK and she was wanting to be going to chaplain school that summer and I was a school teacher. So, I would be back in time and graduate, you know, I did my 45.
You got to work on getting your seminary degree. You got to work on, you know, getting your ordination. At that time, I didn't have any of that. I still had different pieces that needed to be completed.
I was an inner-city pastor, school teacher for 13 years with my former wife and everything that happened there. And that church ordained me, my endorser. We fly down there and interview with Mary in 2000 on active duty after completing a residency in Pittsburgh for a year.
The active army, and now I'm down in Fort Payne, Georgia.
Praise God. And I'm going to announce our email address now. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. If you're asking about a personal or private matter that compels you to remain anonymous, if it makes you feel more comfortable, we will respect that.
So, feel free to remain anonymous if need be. That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. So, now we go to your wife, Jenny Reese Clark, and we have had you give your testimony for a two-hour period last time, but obviously this time we'd like to have it more abbreviated.
And tell us about your upbringing before you tragically spiraled out of control and actually created and began operating a meth lab in your sister's home, if I'm not mistaken, and began dealing that drug.
But if you could tell us before that happened,.
Something about your own upbringing. Yes, sir. It's good to be back on the show. Yeah, it's great to have you back. Yes, sir. Well, I mentioned last time that I grew up in the south, in the southern United States, in Alabama, to Christian parents.
Our household was active in our faith. It was something that was present continuously. It wasn't just put on on Sunday. So, we had battle sprees at our home. Parents were super involved in everything I did.
Dad coached me in ball for about five years, and our whole family was on a show team, which is something that I saw myself being at 17. I considered myself to be the next world's most amazing show ski coach, because that's what we all want at 17.
That was the grandness of my plan. I was going to be a famous water ski coach. I was on my way to my boyfriend's house at the time. Vanity struck me, and I wanted to powder my nose while I was driving.
That's not such a smart idea. One thing led to another, and I lost control of the car, hitting another car head on. It was one car. The Mitsubishi Gallant had eight people in it. We hit head on. I was ejected from the car through the car door, flew out, broke my pelvis in half, fractured it in five places, broke out.
You could see my femur, my skull. I was transported from that moment to another city where I did have a install in me, which helped speed along my recovery. You'd pair that with a body that's in great shape, and I was able to bounce back very quickly.
But what I soon realized, once I did recover, my body could no longer do it. That was devastating to me, because now, instead of being great, I had good looks. I was athletic. I had all these things. Now, I'm just, hey, you're average.
You may ski again, but you will never have anybody climb on you, and you will never be able to do these tricks. You'll never be able to show people how to do these tricks. It just really tore me up inside.
A rebellion began to stir in my soul. Instead of asking God's direction from that point forward, I decided that I wanted the next thing on my list of things to do before I die, and that was, of course, have the family that I came from.
You know, two parents, loving family, kids. I wanted the white picket fence and all that came with it. I ended up marrying the guy who I was on the way to his house down at Clarkson. He stuck around throughout the whole thing, and I thought that was great.
Instead of consulting God, I just said, hey, he'll work. We'll put him there in that position of president. That's when this little seed of rebellion began to grow more and more inside of me. Within about, I'd say, four or five months of being married, I got pregnant with my first child, which was super exciting, but very, very painful.
That ended up leaving me with some chronic pain and damage to my spine and pelvis. Ulcerative colitis set in. Eight months later, the same thing, except for I now have stretch phalangesics. What happened is one thing led to another.
I became dependent upon the substance I used to sustain me instead of a God that is greater that can sustain me through anything, and I turned to the power of it. This began my downward spiral in life.
By 2005, my divorce was officially over. We tried to still reconcile things even after, but 2007, we walked away, and I pretty much lost everything that I'd worked. I really didn't consult. By 2008, I had my first felony drug offenses.
I had a possession of cocaine, a possession of ecstasy, and a concealed weapons charge. I came to an understanding at that point I no longer used drugs to cope with the pain that I was feeling in my body, but people couldn't trust me anymore.
I went to some rehab. I thought I got the greatest help in the world, but what I got was man's greatest theories on how to help you stay sober in modern-day America, and we know that that does not work.
In my toolbox, the world could offer, but it was not good enough because there was something greater out there, and my heart knew it. There was nothing that filled the void in my heart that was meant for.
When I got out, I had intention on becoming a great productive member of society again as taught, and within eight short weeks of leaving that rehab with all those handy tools, I managed to betray my sister and blow up her house manufacturing methamphetamine.
Yeah, just in case that kind of went right past some of our listeners, you blew up your sister's house where you were living, and you had a, unbeknownst to her, a meth lab in the basement, right?
Yes. Evidently, that will die out, right? Part of my testimony, but yes, betrayed my sister. She was away at school, teaching junior high school at the time. She entrusted the house to me while she was gone.
I was going to classes. I was doing everything technically right according to what rehab facilities will train you to do, and I remember going to an AA facility and going to a meeting, and I had peer support with me, so someone else who was freshly sober who wanted to do the right thing, and no one showed up to the meeting but us, and you put two addicts' minds together, and that's greater dumbness.
We didn't have any leadership reason. Well, one thing led to another, and because I wanted to conceal my sin, I was so ashamed that I had relapsed, and that was my product. I kind of didn't want anybody else to know that since my sister was so that ugly.
That's what I did, and I did manage to There was an accident that happened in the midst of that. The house blew up. I was still inside. She lost her little pet. I was in 24 hours.
She lost a pet, did you say?
Yes, she lost It adopted, and that was a pet that her real mother had given her, birth mother had given her, and so it was like a family member, and it perished right before my eyes, and because I could see exactly the destruction that I was causing and things were going in slow motion, God was allowing me to understand and wanted me to remember that.
It was making a permanent memory. I wanted to stay there and do the right thing, but I'm such a coward because to stay there and face her would be the worst punishment to know that she opened her home up lovingly to me and that I betrayed her and destroyed it, and she had sold that house the day before I blew it up.
She had sold that house, and the people were coming over there that afternoon to sign the papers on it, and I blew it up at around 11 o 'clock that day.
Wow.
Took off running. Yes, it's tragic. I took off running, and within 24 hours, I was admitted at a local hospital as a Jane Doe. There's no identification. I was in a coma from a drug overdose of a drug called GHB.
It was unintentional, so that's even cowardly, too. I ended up getting 15 years, which is the minimum sentence for a Class A felony of unlawful manufacturing of methamphetamines, and I did have an arson charge that accompanied that to add to the list of felony charges I already had.
The judge, he was merciful the first time, and he was even more merciful the second, but that part, God's grace, you'll never really know. But I did get 15 years, and I had a special sentence where it was three in, three out, so I would do six years on my 15 if I had good behavior, and I did.
The big transformation process took root in prison. God used that. It was not prison that changed me. I want to make that clear for your audience. It was not prison that changed me, but God used it as a way to settle me down and silence me and make me lie down in green pastures on my cinder block to lay me down, and I was forced to be still and to realize that He was God and to learn to trust Him, and it was kind of my university.
While my husband has many degrees, mine is education through Julia Tutwiler University, slash penitentiary for women, and it's what God chose to mold me through. That's kind of what happened. I ended up getting out, and the Lord laid it upon my heart.
He gave me a mission. In Scripture, it says, go and tell your friends the Lord has done for you, and it was something that moved me, that became a zeal. It was a fire inside of me that I could not quench unless I told my story, and the more I shared the gospel and what the Lord can do for you, the more I felt compelled to share it even more, and the ministry has continued to grow.
He laid, of course, Field of Influence, the Christian fiction novel, and it, of course, is about the Marines who suffer kind of PTSD through an injury, chronic pain, injury, moral injury. Of course, you know, since I've been there, done that, I was able to interview a few Marines and take my story, blend one, and create a novel that people can walk through with the main character.
Basically, that was just another tool in order for me to reach people. I share, I speak, I write, I blog, I volunteer, and so in that process, of course, is how I met Caleb in a very interesting.
Way. And that novel that you wrote is titled Field of Influence. Yes, sir. Right, and again, you could look up more information on that novel and how you can order it at jennyreeseclark .com. That's j-e-n-n-y-r-e-e-s-e-clark .com.
And we're going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us, we already have a few people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you, but if you'd like to join them with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you're living outside the USA, but you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jenny Reese Clark and Caleb Schumacher.
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Tired of bop store Christianity, of doing church in.
A warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.
Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.
Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And before I return to our interview with Jenny Reese Clark and her husband, Chaplain Caleb Schumacher, I have an important announcement.
I really hope that as many of you as possible join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by such notable speakers as Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Voti Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway, who is one of the most powerful preachers I've ever heard in my life.
He's the pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. Phil Johnson, who's the executive director of Grace to You Ministries, the teaching, preaching, radio, television, and literary ministry of John MacArthur.
Rosaria Butterfield, who many of you may have heard on my program, she is a former leftist lesbian tenured professor at Syracuse University who was rescued by the blood of Jesus Christ, and she is now the wife of a Presbyterian pastor.
Todd Friel, host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and a host of other speakers are going to be on that roster, and I am going to be having an exhibitor's booth there for Iron Radio. Thanks be to not only the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church, who made that possible for me, and also Lindbrook Baptist Church in Lindbrook, Long Island, who took care of the cost of some of my expenses, and they sponsor this program annually, and I thank God for them.
For more details on this conference, go to g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com, and the three G's stand for Grace, Gospel, and Glory. So we hope that you attend that conference. If you can, January 19 through the 21st.
I already know of a number of my listeners in the Iron Sharpens Iron audience who have informed me that they intend to be there, and some of them have registered, and I'm hoping to hear about many more of you registering, and I hope to meet many of you face-to-face, so make sure you look up my exhibitor's booth there if you attend for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, which will be right next to the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals exhibitor's booth, and we're going to be working together on distributing literature and doing other things there.
And I hope that my guests can even attend. I believe I heard that you are living in Georgia. I don't know how far Atlanta is from you, but it'd be great if you could be.
At this conference. You know, it's not that far, but I think Caleb is going to be in Ranger School.
Okay. But when we left off before the break, you had reached the point, Jenny, of after that horrific experience of blowing up your sister's home because of a meth lab you were running in secret in the basement of her home, and then you were imprisoned, and you came to Christ, and you wrote a novel, and now tell us how you met the man that would eventually become your husband, Chaplain Caleb Schumacher.
Well, I hope you're ready, Chris, because this is a great.
Story. Well, like I said, I had this burning desire to reach out and minister to those who are suffering the way I had suffered, and I prayed many prayers that God would spare me so that he would not waste my suffering, and he could utilize it for something for Christian's sake, and he answered that prayer, yes, and he gave me this burning desire to want to reach out and help others, and so I was, you know, I hardly knew what I was doing.
No one I knew personally was as zealous at kind of just reaching out to anybody and everybody. I did have some wise counsel that I could turn to, but they themselves had not kind of ventured into the social media slash, you know, just everywhere I was sharing.
I made one rule, and that was share wherever I was at, you know, whether it be ideal or not, because I do believe that a demonstration of true faith in front of someone who may be false prophet would be a blessing to them, you know, to share the gospel.
So I asked God to protect my way, and I began to share just wherever, in many different places and settings, majority of them being recovery scenes and churches. I began doing podcasts and radio shows.
I started a blog and began to minister also in that. I was going 90 miles a minute. I was writing filled of influence, and I had just finished. I would have never seen a man if he was standing right next to me with a big sign saying, I'm a single Christian man.
I would have never seen it. I had my eyes on the Lord and the mission that He assigned me, and because of one of the most important things of modern-day evangelism is through the internet, I was required to get online and network and reach out and find out, get connected to them, let them know, you know, if they knew anybody struggling.
And so, you know, I was kind of doing that, and of course, when I had the idea for filled of influence, the big question that came to me is, now I've written this story that is primarily, you know, written about a military character, yet I am an ex-convict, and I have no military connection, and how am I going to minister?
So I remember fasting at the beginning of last year, and I fasted for seven days, and I asked the Lord to give me vision,.
Direction, financial provision for what was going on. After fasting for seven days, you're definitely.
Going to have some visions, aren't you? It was something, it was a practice that I never had as a youth, or never applied as a youth or young adult, but it was something that I learned in prison, and during the time I've been between you, and he really does speak to you, including your food intake to him, and so I committed to praying and asking God for financial provision, for opportunity, for direction, you know, what do I do with filled of influence, because I was in that stage, the big publishing houses, because that's how it is now, you know, you can't just submit your manuscript to the big secret combat injury.
And of course, like I said, I knew no military, much less a military chaplain, because what would they want to do with someone like me, right? So I began to reach out, and I made public my profile, my bio, you know, I tried to remain transparent, and in the course of this, I, you know, I think I sent out probably a hundred invitations to various chaplains in the military, in all branches, all ranks, didn't know a near one of them, and within 24 hours, I had over 250 connections in the U .S. military that were chaplains, so it's obviously the door that the Lord wanted me to open, because it was a floodgate of response, and it was exactly where I should be, and lo and behold, one chaplain, Caleb Roth, Alan Schumacher, answered the invitation and said, I see that you are connected to some military chaplains, can you shoot me your bio, so I can take a look at it, and some of your work, and so, you know, I sent him my website address, it has my bio, my blog, so he could see my reasoning, and then, you know, he responds back to me a few days later, after he's had time to review it, and pray about it, I suppose, and he said, you have got to come out to Fort Leavenworth, and I was thinking, what?
I got to come out to where? He said, I work with, I work at the USCB and the JRFC at Fort Leavenworth with the military police and the prisoners that are soldier, you know, that were former soldiers, they were, they're inmates, and so, you know, it was just kind of odd, but, and so then, what that did to me was, I thought, you know, I realized that I better start hurrying up with this whole publishing process, that I really didn't have time to wait for everybody else to see if I was a candidate for whether they wanted to represent me or not, and so, God, pushing house, and I met with Caleb, I know that I skipped over to when I first met him in Nashville, and we had, you know, we had to do that, 20, like, we had to, like, meet to make sure that we were real people before he, I guess he had me meet, you know, those soldiers.
And the commanders and everything, but I'll let him pick up from here. Okay, Caleb? Yeah, so,.
You know, that I've come to know as a matter of life or death, a woman submitted to, and I was instantly shared with me. The other part of it was outside the prison, you know, when I go into the prison on duty, we often talk about it that, you know, Jenny was on the inside, administering, had three years, and Jenny also had met together, and extremely busy at my unit level,.
Even with the VA. And Leavenworth, just to interrupt you for a second, Leavenworth is strictly for military, either active or former military, correct? The command general staff.
For training on Sundays, in both of those,. Jenny, within, I think, which was the gospel service.
Well, hold on. The very same day, Chris Arnson, this is just how unique God is, and he, you know, he likes to put his signature on his work, right? Backing up, I knew that when this chaplain had asked me to come to Fort Leavenworth, that there would be no better time to get my novel, written and inspired to me from the Lord Jesus Christ, into the hands of the people who really, really needed it.
But that gave me a three-month deadline to somehow come up with e-books, softbacks, we were working on an audio book at the time, and do five different formats, Chris. And I tell you, large publishing houses with a team of 20 or 50 working for them, they don't even do that.
They're going to attempt that. And Jesus Christ did that, and the day it released was the day I was speaking at Fort Leavenworth, on your ministry, head towards Christ. I don't even know if I spoke yet.
He had me speak two times on post, one time at a VA hospital. I did five meets and greets, and this is like in two and a half days. And then I did five chapel meetings. I also met with the two prisons, and because you work with the MPs a lot there, I got to meet and greet with them, and that is how I met John Spencer.
So, you know, that came into my own ministry, the Spencer Project, where I actually give away that novel, Field of Influence, on e-book version for free for those who were in need of it in ministry or in counseling settings or rehab facilities.
So, yeah, I mean, thank God.
And this is everything that you said so far is prior to Caleb expressing any kind of romantic.
Interest, correct? Yeah, I was in the level where she said to me, she said basically, hey, I need to check out how I'm going to even think about, you know, being with you.
Yeah, I had a series of tests, you know, and if we can't minister and share Jesus together, we can't be together because I'm going to share Jesus.
Well, that's a very good priority that you had here. And of course, Caleb was thinking this all along from the moment he first met you, I'm sure, and he's been lying to me right now.
Maybe, maybe.
So, after she sprung that comment on you, how did things develop in a more romantic direction and so on when you finally reached the point when you said to yourself, I want to spend the rest of my life with this woman and obviously vice versa there?
Well, as you know, because you don't know where you're going to end up three years from now. So, I had no idea. I had met with my assignments, you know, we had talked about Austin Campbell, which would be very close to my daughter, get some military leadership training, like an airborne or a ranger school, or Benning, trying to get some training there.
He ended up.
Okay, so let me break it down for you, Chris. I met him online, I think. Godly man who loves Jesus as much as I do. We have like, like minds and like spirits of love towards the Father in heaven. And he's single and, you know, we're good friends and we can talk and, you know, we pray together and, you know, what's going on here?
And the next thing I know, I'm back in Montgomery, of course, we're separated by six, 15 and a half, 16 hours. And he said, he called, he sent an email one day and he says, Hey, is Fort Benning close to you?
And I'm like, well, sure. It's, you know, an hour, an hour and a half away, something like that. Why? He says, well, I just moved here. That's a hot dog. That's a whole lot closer than 15 hours away. That's doable.
I started praying about it. It was something that I was talking to my family about, because by this time, they knew that Caleb and I had developed a friendship and we were talking quite a bit more. I'd already done the ministry part with him and they kind of, you know, I'm kind of transparent.
So when I smile a little extra long, I'm talking about Caleb. They knew it before I knew it. So anyhow, you know, he moved down here in, I think it's in processing, it was like June 14th. Officially, we'd only known each other since a brief conversation at the end of January.
We began to get more in-depth conversations. I went in June. So June and July were the time, maybe intimate conversation, deeper conversation on a different level. And then he tells me, Hey, I'm coming to Fort Benning.
And he moved down here July 14th, around that time. And so then, you know, I put him through that test, right? In July, or June, when I went up to Lebanon, I had another serious question. It's hard. He didn't know that he was jumping through a hoop.
But I, you know, the next thing was that his daughter was coming down to see Georgia, if she's never been. And he had a brief gap before he had to actually in process. And so he wanted me to meet his daughter.
And so I thought, Oh, well, that's going to tell me a whole lot, because how he treats his daughter is, you know, that's probably how he treats women. And you know, I had all these, you know, human ideas of what I needed to see first.
And so I met him and I met his daughter. And you know, he is absolutely in love with his daughter. And just, and so I came back and I because I liked what I've been, then it was kind of a week later, I, you know, my family was dying to meet him, because now I've actually went to two or three places to meet this man, they have yet to meet him.
So I wanted to invite him to meet my family, which he agreed to do. And at that time, my oldest son had not seen my parents. Because there was a, you know, a little bit of a conflict there and a little bit of maturity and I invited Caleb to be a disaster with my son and everybody and I thought, well, heck, you know, if we're all doing it nude, and it's all the worm off the diving board.
And he went back home and I was confused again.
Did you say he did the worm off the diving board?
He did the worm off the diving board.
What does that mean?
Yes, yes.
Is that a dance or something? What is that?
Well, he's army ball commander. I'm a worm.
It's amazing, because during this discussion, that would be the last thing that would pop into my head that you would do for some reason. Now, whenever I think of Martin Luther and the diet of worms, I'm going to be totally different than the historic account.
George, I tell you, you know, I've got so they're like, you know, pro dirt bike riders and race car drivers comes my date on the edge of the diving board. He does the worm. Now, if you know what the worm is, I'm on your stomach and you exuberate enough energy from your body.
If you land on your stomach and you do the worm.
Yes, I have seen that at least on film anyway.
One of the most memorable was when he did it in front of all of his ended up bleeding on his face, his stomach in two different places, his knees and his feet. For so many tests that I was putting him through, like, for example, when he was moving down here, I had this thing in my head.
Well, if we can work together and then, you know, we worked great together. And I mean, he's looking at me crazy right now because he's like,.
I'm guilty.
I put him through so many tests. And finally, my grandmother, who was my spiritual mentor, who sat under John MacArthur for like 33 years before moving to Alabama to live with my parents, she said to me, now, Jenny, how many tests are you going to put this young man through?
Before you know, God has sent him to you. And, you know, it kind of opened my eyes that I had put him through really a bunch of different, odd, different scenarios to kind of see how he's responding to pressure.
And I wasn't ever seeing anything that was, you know, a caution or a warning sign. So now I'll let you, Caleb, pick up where the whole marriage.
Yeah, in fact, have Caleb pick up when we return from our next break. And we thank our listeners who are waiting to have their questions asked for their patience. And we will eventually get to you. And if anybody else would like to join them, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.
Hello to the church at Galatia. For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron. If you just tuned us in, our guests today for the full two hours are Jenny Reese Clark and Chaplain Caleb Schumacher. And our theme is the ex-meth dealer and the army chaplain, a marriage made in heaven.
And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And I do apologize to Chaplain Schumacher because before the break, I was cut off when I said Caleb Schumacher, the ex-meth dealer.
So I'm hoping that you're not get court-martialed or something there.
But that brings up, well, that's because, you know, when Jenny came down here, one of the things that, you know, I thought about, look at me as a chaplain with a meth dealer. Our former ex-meth dealer.
Yeah, that's a better way of phrasing it.
You don't make, you know, going from a captain to a major, a special.
And you're in the army and you had to Google that?
So I was wondering if I would. So I had gone there, talked to them about it. The gentleman there, you know, became weak. And I'd be honest, my faith, only seeing them for a few, have a long distance relationship with me and give me to encourage me in the area.
Or if it was just wisdom, a future and what it would be like in the future. And what that means, the legal office. And he told me the military, they definitely do look at, you know, she can't have access into a military post.
This last, and he would be, that should be the allusion. For me, I just, I want to be someone who use her power. And for me, I just looked at it. You will be granted within a year after that Jenny's pardon, you know, legally.
And, you know, and it's another great TV show on this. It's not a normal kind of love. It's, it's a love that goes deep. It's a very faith that so that we could be, we could have his righteousness. And in a way we have to Jenny, it's a perfectly have my own.
And Jenny, she realized that, you know, after she married me that, you know, I have some insecurities, but Jenny and I both together, it would be Jenny.
Oh, that's so sweet.
Yes, it is.
So I'll, I'll stop with that, but I don't know if anybody has any comments.
Well, I just remembered a beautiful scripture verse that love covers a multitude of sins and seems that that is a theme of, of your marriage. First Peter 4, 8. And that's a really precious story that you have.
And we, I guess we should go unless you want to follow up with something, Jenny. But before, before I go to the, some listener questions, would you like to wrap up something there with that story?
Well, the commercial on by Charles Spurgeon, a man who never quotes me unless it'll be read. Charles Spurgeon, of course, is my all time favorite. I pretty much knew when I heard her marriage, he said, Jenny, I'm going to tell you a good bit of wisdom for you to keep in favor forever.
She said, when two people can minister better together than apart, the Lord will make that union so. And when she said that, I did begin to have a peace in my heart about the whole marriage and, you know, a history and that he was in the military.
He did have an honorable and noble job, but I have a dishonorable and, you know, I'll also then be attacking that to his name. And so there was a lot, there was a warfare going on between both sides. You know, he expressed that little bit, somebody.
And I still look at him in the future because I knew the limitations and the restrictions that I had on me. But when he knew all those things and he still chose to take someone like me in, it just touched my heart.
And, you know, God gave him a heart for him. I had this over ministry. I had this overwhelming urge to be his helpmate for life. I just wanted to help him with everything.
Well, praise God for that. And so we got some listener questions here. We have Linda in Hilltop, Texas, who actually has a question for each of you. And I'll start with Jenny's question. How has the relationship with your family since the Lord changed you?
Including my sister, she actually forgave me. I understood what that meant the day my sister forgave me because I had written her many, many letters and she never would forgive me or see me. And it was three years later after silence that she did do that.
And the Lord was working the whole time for me. There is one relationship that is not yet restored and that is my youngest son. He was with us this weekend, separated. But my youngest is yet. It's the desire there and the maturity to want to rekindle that relationship or develop that.
So any of your listeners who want to pray for that, I will definitely take prayer for that one. But it's supportive and it's been very, very faithful.
And especially everybody was, I'm sure, wondering about your sister's reconciliation with you because it was her house that you blew up.
Yes, yes. She shared her testimony with me. Numerous occasions for the last three years. We have done it over the summer. She's a teacher, of course, so she can't do it during the year. And now we're separated by state.
But at the perspective of the same event, me, someone who was needing forgiveness to seek it out and what that looked like. And then, of course, her having to come to a point of forgiving someone who is undeserving.
So it's really neat when we get to share together.
Well, Linda in Hilltop, Texas also has a question, as I mentioned, for Chaplain Caleb Schumacher. I would like to know a little of the history of military chaplains and how different it is to be a chaplain in the last few years compared to when you first began.
Obviously, political correctness has changed a lot of things in our world, and especially our nation here in the United States. And I don't want you to feel uncomfortable if there are things that you can't mention as an officer in the military.
But if you could comment on that as much as you can.
When they talk to us, they have a wonderful museum down there. I would invite anyone who wants to learn about the history, they can go down to that museum. It's the U .S. Army Chaplain School. They have the Navy there.
I walk through it, talk of the history of it. We go by the word, say, you know, we stress we provide for the commanders for the unit. He stands for, you know, I think of a recipient. He's probably amazing.
If you had the guys that he was in a prisoner of war camp in Korea, and he gave everything he had. These guys were going through the hardest of times. And he ended up, he was raising the morale. He was, you know, a Methodist.
Together, we try to minister, you know, a lot of these different things. Do not identity type issues and the marriage that are coming down. Of course, I know the Associated Gospel Churches of which they send me articles from some of the leading experts, even in my Bibles to, you know, Amazing Grace, which is why the chaplaincy exists.
We are here to make sure people are in friends. I too can be in every voice needs to be supported. And so you could even look at some of the current issues that we have. Paul, in fact, in fact, he engaged with them.
He's AD stands for trainees come down on Wednesday nights, brick engage everybody on one. You know, I had Buddhist, you know, and, you know, we're not running from religious thought or expression or even, you know, whatever the United States of America is choosing is going to be.
Whatever the United States, even though that the army chaplaincy makes it clear to us that we still have the freedom to preach hard. I preach hard against, you know, what we need to preach for righteousness.
Thought for me, primary mission, exciting day. It's exciting days to be a chaplain in the United States Army.
Well, certainly challenging also.
Yes, it's extremely challenging. Some people would say, you know, chaplains, are you, you know, especially me, I come from a fundamental Baptist and working with other and some people even praying to give a voice why we should say that we need to exist.
The amendments that we have of being taken chaplains, we stay on a particular one. And that's really not a religion. That's who anybody from any faith group, I believe Jesus is.
And so you basically have no restrictions when you're speaking to your faith group. You could say anything that your heart compels you to preach and teach and proclaim from the word of God without restriction, at least at this point in time.
Correct. Yeah. When I'm when I'm holding a chapel service, I currently pastor with Fort Benning. It's called WS. And Jenny is the program's director there. And, you know, God will speak out of it free of my savior.
When I'm in my chapel with people, you know, more pray in Jesus name from the Bible. So you have to know where you're performing. They choose to come to my chapel service, which a lot of them do. You're going to hear what I say.
And so, like I said, it's an academic environment. It's an educational environment. May Christ be glorified. You know, if we really believe that Christ is all in all, they'll see the love of Christ, that he is supreme, the love that he gave to us, our willingness to provide for their needs.
Go ahead.
No, no, you can finish and we have to go to a break after that. But if you want to finish.
I will give you an example. Gave him direction that and he came, he came up to me and I want to be baptized.
And we show love, but we'll show that sensitivity to what we're saying. It's not that we have a place to see that.
And of course, you could only plant seeds in water and it's God that gives the increase.
Amen.
So we have to go to our final break right now. So if you'd like to join us on the air and there still are a couple of people waiting for their questions to be asked, and we thank you again for your patience.
But if you'd like to join us on the air, we have about 23 minutes or so left. So I would email those questions as soon as possible to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away.
We're going to be right back after these messages. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year-round Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.
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See the Long Island Galleries display ad at ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back, and here's a little special treat. That was Happy Birthday to our guest Jenny Reese Clark. It's her birthday today, and she actually was willing to carve out a chunk of her day to be on our program today, and I'm very honored by that, so I hope you enjoyed it.
That was the Oxford Bells singing Happy Birthday acapella.
Well, thank you very, very much.
Now, was I mistaken by interpreting one of your emails that this is the very first time that you two have been interviewed together?
Yes, it is, the very first interview together, and so we were kind of wondering how things would go, but I'm smiling at you as well, and I'm really glad to hear what I'm hearing.
Amen. Well, I am honored that this is the first time that you two have been interviewed together, so that's a historic landmark in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron, and I'm assuming you're in ministry as well.
Yes.
You know, and it's really an amazing thing, even with the ways that PWSC, and she's always longed to be part of a growing body of believers and actually be able to minister to them, and now we can minister.
It's an amazing opportunity for both of us.
Amen. Well, praise God. We have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, and I'm wondering if his question has something to do with the fact that I have had recently a couple of Christian libertarians who have been discussing their point of view on my station, on my program I should say, whereby they have basically said that for the United States government to be having this ongoing war on drugs and having these recreational drugs outlawed, it actually gives birth to crime.
In fact, many of us who know something about our history, about the prohibition laws that took place in the early 1900s, where alcoholic beverages were outlawed, that is actually what gave birth to the mafia in the United States.
But our listener, Tyler, is basically, obviously, primarily, I guess, asking this of Jenny. When it comes to the US, is policy on incarceration for illegal drugs a good thing? And what is your opinion on that?
And do we as a nation incarcerate more people than needed for minor offenses? Now, obviously, you could be vehemently opposed to illegal drug use and drug activity and so on, and you could even go as far as saying that this is damnable wickedness, but there's a difference between that and saying that the government should be looming over our heads and trying to correct every bad decision we make as individual citizens and seeking to prevent us from behaving in an evil manner that is self-destructive.
But what is your opinion, if you have one that you care to share, Jenny? And of course, Chaplain Caleb, you could chime in as well if you want to.
Well, first and foremost, if you break the law, there should be consequences. Drug addicts know this prior to choosing to use and becoming addicted to them. But the way the state and the penal system works as far as consequences for drug crime is, you know, the more offenses you have, the more increased your time will be.
What we have happening right now, for example, in the state of LA, in the prison system, and the majority of the crime is drug use. Now, should so many drug dealers, dealing of course with these issues, now you are seeing people that are going, obviously incarcerating them needs to be something done.
But I am not an advocate against refusing to incarcerate addicts. I think that there is a time in everyone's life that they need to be sat down forcibly with their institution to do that.
Use it in your life, that's for sure.
He absolutely used the institution to house me and kind of settle me down and get me to that point where at least the fog of the substance abuse would be lifted enough for me to actually receive a message from him and receive, you know, good, sound counsel.
And people may be, quote unquote, sober, but they have what they call a dry drunk. You know, you may technically test clean, but there is a healing process from chronic drug use. I will say, it was not the prison.
I said, this one's already on this program. It was not the prison that rehabilitated me. Do I think that, do they have a next, and I came out and ended up going up the house eight weeks later. I think that everybody should have to serve their consequences, but if you do begin to see that the majority of it is from a substance abuse, we need to have treatment centers that do offer the most reliable method of recovery.
And that is kind of, right now I speak for armies as well in the military, and one of the things that you cannot offer someone six of seven tools in recovery and expect them to have all the resources when, for me, the seventh was the most important of all.
And the army likes to be diligent for their serial user accountability partner. I think that chronic users, it's a process and it requires lots of money and lobbyists. It's going to require, my faith set me free.
He set me free. And I think until they, you know, and I will say that even the ones that they do condone, such as AANA, they will say something about a higher power because almost every recovery program that's out there will include the fact that you can't do it by yourself.
Restricting the something else's that someone can get it from. Like I tell the army, I have been to rehabs, I've been to halfway houses, I've been to treatment centers, I've been to prison, I've been to all these things.
Nothing was as effective as the church and nowhere did I get the same amount of resources that I got at the church. I have a slide that I show in the PowerPoint presentations when I do do these trainings.
On the last slide it says, these are all the different things you can find located under one roof and that is the church and that is service opportunity, mentorship programs, financial support, ministry, knowledge, education.
I mean you have these and the church has been around and established for hundreds of years. So it's not like you need to test bury those in the church, you know. And so some of them, some of them not.
You're going to have to go to a resource center. You're not necessarily going to get rehab. Or for that you may need to go to the soup kitchen. The soup kitchen you're not going to find your faith or mentorship or financial.
But if you go to the church, because God told those folks to love you because they want to be obedient to his word, they will love you and they will help you. And then you find a new family. I mean and you can't find that at every other place here.
So that's kind of my answer to that question. I hope I answered it. You know, you're kind of seeing where I'm coming from in terms of its purpose. And there should be consequences for breaking the law even, you know, for Hillary Clinton as far as, you know, her questions in the line, you know, different groups of people with different types of problems shouldn't be punished as greatly as they kind of say.
But to me breaking the law...
Yeah, well that was a very thorough answer, I believe. And we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, it seems apparent that you two have very different personality types. And was that at all a challenge that you needed to overcome and perhaps still need to cope with?
Or as the old saying goes, opposites attract. Does this just always maintain a beauty in the relationship that you seem very different from one another?
No, I'll let you answer this one, Eddie.
Okay, yeah.
You know, we do a lot of strong bonds retreats and marriage enrichment courses. Yeah, so Jenny happens to be the red orange. Orange being very green and blue. So I tend to be a little bit more of a...
You're kidding me, really? I'm shocked by this.
Yeah, I'm more reserved.
Except for when he does the warm.
So I will say, you know, it's really Jenny, more grief theme. For Jenny, I see this bubbling joy. And for me, having a lot of grief, our themes in our life...
He's getting brownie points.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. We have John in Augusta, Maine, who asks, sorry if you've already answered these questions or brought them up, but I just tuned in recently and I was wondering if your children from previous relationships have now fully accepted your new spouses?
And her personality is a lot like mine. And so what I found was that when she first came down, she was, I'll be honest, she was a little jealous. She wanted her daddy. She didn't want Jenny to have him.
It was hers. And is kind of step out and let Jenny have time with Brooke. And obviously, being a child, I'm being very busy. I had her come down here actually when I had to be at work. Most of the time when I saw her, I was on vacation.
I had to go away. I had to be away. I had to be at work together because I like to be funny and express that, that humor. Brooke is my kiddos.
Of course, like I had mentioned, Joshua, I yet to have a relationship with him. So of course he does not have a relationship. Gabriel on the other hand is a very big intellect, really, really super brilliant kid.
Magnet program, AP classes. He's 13 years old. You know, in, in, in math grades and different subjects to go beyond his years. But being that Caleb was also a former math, he kind of processed information and strategized kind of in the same way.
They're both logical, but they're reasoners. That appeal, that was very appealing to John Gabriel, someone, a male figure who could engage him in conversation that was stimulating to him. You know, he was kind of, I will say that John Gabriel and Brooke were both in our wedding.
John Gabriel was Caleb's best man.
Wow. Yes.
And, and that was it. That was who was in the wedding. We gave him each time a pocket watch on a, on a necklace. Gave him each that because it was symbolic of the time that is precious to us that we either do or don't have with them.
And that this is a moment that we would like to keep in time. We had one made for Joshua. We have to make for each one of them. But since that, my birthday is today, but our one year anniversary was August 23rd.
So I will say a year later, John Gabriel has absolutely blossomed from, you know, a kid that kind of stayed in the background a little bit, which is kind of Caleb's personality. He'll stay in the background till it's time for him to express, you know, the word of God or share, you know, and they really have similar, you know, their like minds in that.
Way.
And so John Gabriel has become this kid that once was in the corner that is now strategizing two months in advance to play, to go with Caleb when he gets to visit again and to play these games. And, and I, and it's just so precious to me because, you know, he's been through a lot with having me absent from his life for a few years because of the incarceration for roughly around a five year period.
I was just glad to see him begin to trust again and to love again. And it's just very precious. So they, we've had our challenges, but any blended family does. And so we pray about them constantly. We always pray for our children's salvation and for the growth of their relationships in the Lord, those that have them already.
And so it actually is something that has united Caleb and I and made us grow closer together than apart because it is, again, our heart and a blessing.
Well, I want to thank you both for being on the program together today and, and having a landmark in your own ministry and mine by having this first interview together on Iron Sharpens Iron. And I want to remind our listeners that if you want more information about this couple and their ministry, you could go to JennyReeseClark .com, Jenny Reese, that's R-E-E-S-E Clark .com and Clark has no E at the end, C-L-A-R-K dot com.
And don't forget that this Friday, we have some more military folks on the program. We have Staff Sergeant David Carnes joining us to give his testimony on how the Lord used him to rescue several of the transit police officers that were trapped beneath the rubble of one of the World Trade Center towers after the infamous attack upon the World Trade Center on 9 -11 in 2001.
And if you want to watch the movie World Trade Center starring Nicholas Cage and Michael Shannon before Friday, so you'll get an idea of something about Staff Sergeant Carnes, you might want to do that.
And it's available on Netflix, I believe, right now. But I want to thank you both again, Jenny Reese Clark and Chaplain Caleb Schumacher, and I hope that you both can come back on Iron Sharpens Iron in some time in the near future.
Look forward to it, Chris.
Yes, sir.
And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.