Responding to the IFB/KJVOs: James White and Jeff Durbin

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:31

Greetings and what would you see a zoom in there at the end? That's that's that's pretty cool. Yeah, that's that's fun.

00:38

Rich has been having a lot of fun. He's also been very bossy so far. So if and if so, if I have to stop, it's because he's waving at me and telling me to look someplace else and all the rest of stuff.

00:49

So welcome to the dividing line. We have advertised this to let people know we've got a lot to cover and not a lot of time in which to do it.

00:58

What's going to happen here is for the next hour and 50 minutes, I have an in -studio ninja guest by the name of Jeff Durbin, who

01:08

I've heard so many rumors about him recently. We're going to clarify all of them for you. I feel like what's that guy,

01:15

Maury, Maury, Maury Povich, whatever show he has where, you know,

01:21

I almost I almost grabbed a manila envelope, you know, and the results of the DNA test are. And you told the truth.

01:31

Well, not only that, but I've just heard that you've been undercover recently. No one's seen you. No, I have.

01:37

This is the first appearance publicly. I can't talk about where I've been. Well, you were at church.

01:43

I mean, that was sort of everybody who actually knows me knows where I am. I know. So anyway, but we have a bunch of stuff to cover because there has been a explosion.

01:54

What do we call it? The IFB slander fest is a term that I've been using. Yes, yes. Independent Fundamental Separated Baptist.

02:02

King James only. King James only. But, but this is what we're just talking about. It's smaller than that because we've been receiving,

02:08

I've been receiving letters. Oh, sorry. Let's do this real fast. Yes. So I, this is. Oh, good grief. Pastor Zach, come in real fast and just wave at the camera.

02:15

Oh, good grief. Pastor Zach. Closer, closer, closer. There you go. Right there. There you go. There you go.

02:20

There we go. All right. All right. Pastor Zach. So you gave me this as a

02:26

Christmas gift, which I'm so thankful for. And now I have the most epic combination of Bibles.

02:32

There is nothing like that in the world. Nothing. Nothing. So this is amazing. So you need to tell that, now you had gotten the ESV and that's the, in mainly red.

02:40

Yes. And you got that from Jeffrey Rice. Jeffrey Rice. Post -Tennis. It says apology on the front.

02:46

And so I got this idea. I, of course, my famous Jeffrey Rice is a

02:53

Nestle All -in -28 large print edition. Yeah. In that beautiful Italian goatskin.

02:59

That's right. And so I'm sitting here going, all right, I want to get Jeff a

03:06

Nestle All -in -28 edition. But at first I thought we'd just make it match what you already had. And then

03:11

I started thinking, ah, let's make it the exact reverse. And so I contacted

03:17

Jeffrey and I said, you still have all the data and stuff from, you remember what his looked like and stuff like that.

03:23

He said, oh yeah, oh yeah, we can do it. We can do it. It has this just amazing checkerboard.

03:30

It is like a chessboard or checkerboard. Yeah. It's sort of a really cool effect. But that's the

03:35

Nestle All -in -28 large print. So it's actually readable for those of us who, I hate to point this out, but you are in your fifth decade now.

03:46

That's right. And these things are going to start. It's so funny you're saying that. I was just in the store two nights ago and I said, babe,

03:54

I think I need glasses. And she's like, what do you mean? Are you sure? I was like, I think I need glasses. Stuff is starting to get fuzzy far away.

03:59

It hit me once again. Well, it's not the far away stuff that's so frustrating. Yeah. It's the fact that on pill bottles, they use fonts.

04:08

They're like three point. And that's why there are overdoses in the world. It makes sense because you're getting older.

04:14

Yeah. But anyways. When we first met, I never knew that we'd be having conversations about becoming old men.

04:20

Well, that happens, unfortunately. Rich and I sit around all the time. I'll let you do that. So you gave me an amazing sword.

04:27

So I thought, it's so hard to buy a gift for you. Because I was like, well, what can

04:33

I do that would be special and be meaningful? And so I thought it's long. Yeah, it is long. So I'll let you,

04:39

I'll let you go ahead and open it. That's my Christmas present to you. Oh, well, I'm not sure. I've only got room for, uh, for two back here.

04:46

Oh, this is a special sword. It's different. See, I knew you had these swords. So yes,

04:52

I think it's just like a sleeve, a sleeve for it. So this is unique because what?

04:59

Yeah, there you go. Look at it. So this is unique because it's a Ninja sword. So from a

05:05

Ninja, and if you noticed, and I hope the audience can see it. Oh, it's got a blow. It has a blow dart thing.

05:10

You can slip out and it has the darts. Look, they're the darts right there. And so you, so you can slip it out and you can like that.

05:18

And, but, but they won't go through the glass. It's for Rich. So you calm down Rich from now on.

05:25

Wow. So there, yeah. So there, and I also have this nice little stand. Oh, and there's, there's more, right? Yeah. There's more. You got plenty.

05:30

So all we need to do is get some good poison for you so you can, well, yeah. Or some, you know, vitamin B12. Yeah.

05:37

Oh, I feel so much better. Thank you. I'm wide awake now. So there you go. So there's a, there's a, there's actually a story behind the shape of this sword and that's that the

05:47

Samurai forged their sword so that they had a curve and they did that so they can get under particular armor, right?

05:53

So the ninjas, a lot of them were actually like associated with Samurai or they were either at war with the

05:59

Samurai. So they understand their tactics. Oh, is that why that was in the last Samurai was the ninjas were attacking? Yes.

06:04

So there's, there's a whole, like, there's a whole story. The ninjas didn't do too well. Yeah, no, not there. By the way, that is one of my all time favorite fight scenes.

06:10

My friends choreographed that scene and it's my, my favorite. So that's very sharp. Now I have to be honest.

06:18

Unfortunately, that is not a battle ready sword. So you know the difference by the handle.

06:24

There's wooden pegs inside here. If it was a real forged sword, you'd want to have steel pegs, something that wouldn't break.

06:31

So, I mean that, that'll do the trick. It'll do the trick, but it may, it may fail if the other guy's got a sword too.

06:37

If he's a Samurai with a real sword. So the, the, the story behind it is that the ninjas created their sword straight to confuse the

06:45

Samurai because the Samurai were used to a curved blade. So when the ninja would come and attack, because their sword was straight, they could actually do some unique maneuvers that would slip underneath the curve of their blade.

06:56

So there's the story behind that. Wow. Well, thank you. And poison darts. And poison darts. That's right.

07:01

Yes, yes. So. So we're back. Hey guys, we're glad you joined us for our.

07:06

Yeah, yeah. Time together. Our Christmas gift celebration here. I'm just sort of wondering what the

07:12

IFBs are going to do with that. Something. Something. I think with the sweaters too. Yeah, I think so too. That's something along those lines, but given some of the things they say, but you were, actually, you started to say something and we, we jumped off.

07:25

We wanted to differentiate between these guys. And I, yeah, so we've been receiving messages for two weeks.

07:31

I have at least, I think you were on one as well. And independent fundamental Baptist ministers who are stable, who know the

07:39

Lord and know the gospel have been messaging saying, hey, we're grateful for your ministry. We love you guys. You've been a blessing to us.

07:45

We use your stuff to help our congregation get onto evangelism. Please differentiate. Please just know that this is a, this is a, an even smaller version of that.

07:56

And. And they admit it in the videos. They do. No, they do. I don't think we're saying something that they would disagree with. It's a very small. Yeah. Very, very small.

08:02

In fact, if you use their definition of Christianity, there has not been Christianity until fairly recently.

08:08

Yeah. I mean, they say we've always been around, but if you know church history and the incredibly unique mixture of beliefs that they represent.

08:19

Right. No. I mean, at the absolute earliest, you'd have to, maybe you could stretch something to the

08:28

Anabaptist, but you, there's no way you'd go to the early church. I mean, you'd not even the trail of blood stuff could possibly put all this stuff together.

08:36

So the point being that there is a, well, first of all, in, in an hour and 40 some odd minutes,

08:47

I'm going to be doing a 70 minute exchange with Pastor Robinson, who at least had the temerity to step up and respond to the invitation.

09:00

I'm not even sure where we are anymore. Step up to the invitation. And I just had the idea that the best way to,

09:10

I don't know if you heard the discussion between Michael Brown and Senator Hernandez.

09:16

On the atonement. On the atonement. I only saw you talk about it. I haven't heard it yet. Okay. Michael and I are going to do our own.

09:23

Yeah. It just needs to be, needs to be done, needs to be done the right way. It tended to go all over the place because it was just simply cross -examination.

09:32

And so you'd end up going over here and then, you know, in five minutes you're on a topic way over there and you've totally left this. I sort of think the best way to contrast how the two groups, ourselves and these guys operate is to go straight to the scriptures.

09:48

Right. Both sides claim to believe in the soul of Scriptura and to have the Bible as preeminent.

09:54

They are King James onlyists. And so there's some, we're going to look at some weird stuff that comes from that, but let's, let's put it out there so people can hear one side handle, one text and then the other side do the exact same thing and then have cross -examination on that text only and closing saves.

10:16

I think that's the best way to avoid all the grandstanding and all the rest of the stuff that goes with it.

10:22

Yeah. And so we're going to be doing that at 6 p .m. Eastern Standard Time, whatever time it is where you are.

10:30

And so that's coming up. So between now and then we have time to be responding to some of the amazing stuff that seemingly, my guess, and I think you agreed with this, my guess is this is pre -movie stuff.

10:43

This, this video that they're doing called Calvinism, Doctrine of Demons. It just seems like there's a coordinated, people are working together.

10:55

It's not like you and I have all of a sudden been doing a bunch of weird stuff, even though they are saying they've been attacking us.

11:01

You mean responding to what you're saying? We certainly weren't coming after you first. Believe me, we have more important things to be doing.

11:09

Both of us do. I suppose before I start playing some video, we sort of have run around the gum stump a few times, but we were thinking about doing something and maybe in just a couple of minutes, you are one of the three elders of Apologia Church and you are now the first pastor

11:35

I've had that's younger than me. What do you think about that? I'm having a hard time with it, but I'm handling it well.

11:44

Luke said he was so happy to get done with that first sermon. Right. Which I'm like, well, okay, that makes me feel somewhat bad, but someone good at the same time.

11:56

I get it. Big news was, you're stuck with me now.

12:02

I'm sorry. In fact, Zachary Conover wrote to me last week and said, hey,

12:08

I've been assigned as your deacon. I said, what do the guys have against you? No, no, no.

12:15

You have to understand in the meeting with the deacons, we're trying to talk about who needs to be cared for and new people who needs to be assigned.

12:20

So they're taken care of and checked in on. And I was like, well, who wants to be Dr. Weinstein? And it was funny, just the table fell silent and then

12:31

Zach goes. He can show you the text.

12:39

I was like, you poor man, what do they have against you? Seriously. But it's made lots of news and all sorts of scuttlebutt and all the rest of the stuff.

12:49

But the fact of the matter is, I was at the same place for almost 30 years, so I'm not a church hopper.

12:59

And when I think of the relationship we've had for really the entirety of the existence of Apologia, I don't know how many times

13:14

I've preached there, but all the elders have said, you've had a formative influence on our theology and stuff like that.

13:21

It seems like an obvious fit in many ways. And obviously,

13:26

I want to be a blessing in any way that I can be to the church.

13:33

You will testify that I, before we did that, I said, we need to sit down and talk about the negatives because I'm not easy to have.

13:41

But we both also decided that we pretty much attract the same critics. We do. As is obvious here, right?

13:49

As is obvious here. I mean, you and my name have been associated in so many different ways, both by the

13:56

Mormons and by other groups as well. And so there is that in the background.

14:02

And I really have to wonder how much of what has happened recently is related to that.

14:08

They started a rumor that I was moving to Tempe, all the rest of that stuff. And it's like, no, the church is in Tempe, but well, sort of.

14:18

Not now. Thanks. Appreciate it. I joined up and then you moved. Let's go farther away.

14:24

Yeah, we're temporarily moved. Yeah. I'm going to have to leave on Saturdays to get to it.

14:32

That's right. Contrary to some comments made by Anderson, which you would have no way of knowing, the apology of church is not a flop.

14:39

It's a thriving, growing church. Everyone's there all at once, 300, 350 people, but we don't have our own building.

14:45

So we're moving, yes, to Mesa, temporarily, hopefully, and then we'll find a more perfect spot.

14:52

Well, we only have the one service. So even us, almost Glendale people can make the track.

14:59

At least make the one. That's right. Can make the track. So, yeah. So, yes, so we have that connection, but Alpha and Omega is not going away.

15:07

Apology is not going away. We're not coalescing into one big thing. We've been working together. You've filled in for me.

15:13

I've filled in for you. But you have your areas of expertise and emphasis and I have mine and we help each other, but we don't have to step on each other's feet and stuff like that.

15:26

You help me. I help you. It's how we do it. Well, for people who are just getting to know, like maybe this whole relationship and these ministries, the first Christian book

15:35

I ever read, when I first heard the gospel was, that's right, and exactly that cover.

15:43

There you go. Yeah. That's right. The first edition. That's right. And I read that and then I met you in 1996 when

15:49

I first moved out here. I went to the Mormon Temple. Mormon Temple. In Mesa. At the corner of Main and Hobson.

15:55

That's right. Didn't have any friends here yet. The Arby's was still there. That's exactly right. I always ate. And you got an

16:00

Arby's thrown at your head, didn't you? They missed and hit me in the chest. Okay. So, yeah. So I first met you in 1996.

16:06

I had already read your book and then actually it was Rich. He probably doesn't remember this. It was Rich that told me who you were.

16:12

I saw you surrounded by a, I'm 18 years old. I have no friends. I got my backpack on with Mormon stuff

16:18

I see you. I don't know who you are. This was scholar stage. This was the hair and the big glasses.

16:25

And I watched you witness to this crowd of Mormon teens and missionaries.

16:32

This is when they were still talking to us. And I was so blessed by what I was hearing. I was like, oh, thank

16:37

God. There are people who actually want to reach these people. And then I asked Rich, I said, who is he?

16:44

And then he said, well, that's James White. I was like, wait, not James White, the

16:49

King James only controversy. Yeah, that's him. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, whoa, this is insane. So that's actually where we first met.

16:55

And then it was, it was years and years of just sort of like crossing paths and I'm reading a book and I'm talking to you here and there.

17:01

And a few times I'd ask you questions and I don't know what, it was definitely probably around the beginning of Apology of Church that...

17:08

You were doing radio. Yes. That's when we started to really get in communication and, and, and just, it was, yeah.

17:14

So, I mean, it's true. It makes sense. I mean, Apology of Church is the result of your labor and teaching and all these years pouring into me.

17:22

And so it makes a lot of sense that you would be at Apologia, contrary to a lot of interesting things I've heard about it lately.

17:29

Yeah. So... Well, all I can say is you're a patient man and I want to,

17:35

I want to really, and part of the joke with Zach on the

17:41

Deacon thing was, you know, you poor man, but I really want to make sure he doesn't have to worry too much about that particular group on his list.

17:49

Right, right. Is, is, is primarily the thing. Anyways, so much for that, that sort of gives you some of the background.

17:54

I wanted to talk about that just briefly, because everyone's talking about it. It's like, you know, whatever. And by the way, wasn't it funny when,

18:04

I forget which one of these guys it was. I think it was the guy that I'm doing my, yeah, it was the guy that I'm doing my dialogue with.

18:10

When he went after you and Apologia, he said, I'm going to read from some of the stuff on their website.

18:18

And what he was reading was the 1689 London Baptist Confession. And he didn't even seem to realize it.

18:23

Really? He, he seemed to think that was something you guys had come up with and all it was, was the 1689.

18:30

So, I mean, this goes, this goes back, you know, all, all the way back to the, the forming of Reformed Baptists and he didn't even recognize what it was.

18:40

And what's important about that is that we, we do have a, a confession.

18:46

Now there are a lot of Reformed Baptists that have a exact liturgy and culture attached to that, that Apologia has a variant form of.

18:59

I mean, there are Reformed Baptists who have guitars and drums, and then there are

19:07

Reformed Baptists who will burn you if you have guitars and drums. And then there are people in between. So, but, but it is not a non -confessional church.

19:17

There is a, there is a standard, there is a strong doctrinal stance. There has to be, to be able to do apologetics in a meaningful way.

19:23

You all agree with me that theology determines your apologetics, not the other way around. You, we both have benefited greatly from Greg Bonson and, and all the rest of this stuff.

19:35

And so, yeah, it makes perfect sense. They don't get it because they don't have a connection to history. They have no earthy idea where they've come from.

19:42

They don't really seem to care where they've, they've come from. And that's, that's one of the sad things about, about what we're looking at.

19:49

Well, we're never getting anything done if I don't start playing stuff. That's okay. I think it's good though, because it gives people at least a bit of a taste and flavor of the background of who are we talking about?

19:59

What's the connection? How did this happen? And I think you already said it, but I just want to stress it for those who are watching. Some of the comments that have been sort of most disruptive to me in terms of like,

20:07

I just don't get it. These guys, what are they, what are they saying is, is when they say things like, and they attack this guy and this guy.

20:13

And it's like, well, guys, if you looked at your videos and how they're titled and those have come first.

20:19

And so the response that we're trying to do is as Christian ministers, um, that are concerned ultimately for, of course their souls, but I'm like you posted yesterday, very concerned for the people who are being abused by them.

20:30

Yeah. I really do think that the abusive language that they use just regularly, just listen.

20:36

And I sometimes wonder if, if because of their mindset, they even realize they're using it. Right. I think it's so normative in some of these groups to have such a low view of anyone who's different than you, that it really makes me wonder if they even recognize the nastiness of their language, which also means that that follows through into the pastor people relationship as well.

21:01

Right, right. And you and I have both, uh, talked with people who've come out of very abusive churches in that context.

21:09

And that's where my real concern is. I would love to run into some of these guys 10 years down the road and say, you know what?

21:17

The Lord has been gracious to me and has done a work in my life. And I, you know, uh, but who knows?

21:23

Uh, I can't, I can't expect that. I simply have to work toward that and hope for the best.

21:29

But aside from the nastiness they throw out toward you and I, uh, where they focus upon the hipster, uh, which you'll never, you've never understood.

21:41

Your kids probably think that's one of the funniest things on the planet. My wife and children think that some of the things that are said online about me are the most hilarious thing.

21:49

One time there was actually a little clip from Steven Anderson. Um, my wife and children, all my children drove home and they laughed about 15 minutes straight because she played it and it went through the stereo and he was saying, his wife is a drunk.

22:03

He's a drunk. And they were cackling like, like almost like out of breath because they couldn't, from their perspective, that's the most hilarious thing ever.

22:11

Like, do you know who you're talking about? No, they don't. Um, like, I mean, it wouldn't take long to just type in Jeff Durbin addiction into the, into the, into Google or YouTube.

22:20

And then how many videos need to be up where you learn about my being a full -time pastor and chaplain at a drug rehab that the speaking around the world on addiction and the ministries and the articles and the special videos.

22:33

And I'm, I'm doing a series, I did a series with Douglas Wilson and Toby Sumter and myself on drug and alcohol and pornography addiction.

22:40

Like people are, you know, utilizing this around the world right now. It wouldn't take you long to find it. So there's a lot of, yeah.

22:46

So there's, from my perspective, there's a lot of, a lot of false witness. I don't even, we're not even gonna get into today.

22:52

Nor do we need to. Um, a lot of slander, a lot of gossip, but the main concern from my perspective, and of course from yours is what does the word of God say?

22:59

And the gospel they're presenting, that's the main thing. But I do want to touch on one thing that's relevant to what you just said.

23:06

Taking the time to look at your videos, taking the time to read any of my books, listen to more than 160 debates.

23:13

They can listen to just one if they wanted to, but there, it's not like they're hard to find. Um, from their perspective, from these men's perspective, there is, there is a willful and prideful ignorance.

23:27

It is from their perspective, an act of compromise to actually listen to what the other side has to say.

23:36

And this is a part of the IFB movement as a whole, historically, because it's like, don't listen to what's outside of our, our group, because we are afraid that if you do, and they've experienced this, generation of generation, they send their kids out, their kids only have this much experience of Christianity.

23:59

They go to the university and even on the best day, maybe they run into some, some

24:07

Calvinists or something like that and go, wow, there are people that aren't exactly like us that really seem to have a love for the

24:14

Lord and things like that. And they baptize their babies and, oh no.

24:20

And, um, and the result is frequently what we see in the emergent church movement where, okay, that means

24:27

I can throw it all out. Right. Instead of the, the, the gradual broadening to biblical parameters of recognizing, um, what is what's called

24:37

Adiaphora and what's definitional and so forth. So, um, there is this mindset, uh, that we get and when we catch them saying just incredibly stupid things, part of it is because they don't want, they will not take the time to read a book, to watch a video, to do anything other than to look for something to attack, never to understand because to seek to understand is a compromise.

25:03

And that's where the danger is. And so they can't accurately represent Muslims or, or, or Methodists, because all of, as long as you are not in their tiny little, little area there, then you can't possibly be saved.

25:17

And that means everything gets elevated to a definitional doctrine.

25:24

Everything. Pre -millennialists. I mean, there's some, they're, they're, they're into the pre, pre -tribulationist.

25:29

You're out of here. I mean, literally anathematizing each other over. Post -trib, mid -trib, pre -trib.

25:35

Exactly. Everything becomes a definitional doctrine. And so they can just dismiss you and I as, as heretics going to hell.

25:44

Um, and in fact, um, let me, let me start with this one real quick. Uh, this was this, um, uh, fellow from, um,

25:55

Steadfast or whatever, wherever he is here. Uh, let me, let me get this here real quick.

26:00

I think it was around right about here. This is how he finished up, uh, looking at the

26:05

Christian message, Christian message track, a track to which he said, I never once quoted scripture. And there are five full citations of verses plus about 57 references to verses in it.

26:16

So, you know, the research, but here's, here's how we, here's how he finished up. You heretic, according to the

26:23

Bible, you will burn in hell, according to the Bible, because you preach a work salvation and you preach that there are some people that cannot be saved because God already picked them for, for hell.

26:33

The Bible says, let you be accursed. James White, go to hell. So we're not making this up.

26:40

No, that's the, that's the, that's the attitude. Uh, so from their perspective, we aren't

26:45

Christians, so we don't deserve and no non -Christian deserves to be treated respectfully or accurately.

26:55

And that's where they come up with the attitude they have. Yeah. And, and, and just, and also just in terms of people,

27:00

I think getting background, that could be helpful. I came out of an independent fundamental separated Baptist background.

27:05

So when I moved to Arizona, the first church I went to in Bible college, I went to was all that. I know the culture

27:11

I was in it for at least two years. Um, and I saw people escape from it. And I thought that was strange that they were using words like I've escaped, you know?

27:20

Um, it was just, I wasn't raised in church at all. And so this was all new to me. And I thought, well, these guys believe the

27:26

Bible. They are saying the Bible is the word of God. And this is the very truth and everything needs to be tested by that. And that was something that I was drawn to.

27:32

Like, that's very, very important. It draws a lot of people. But then of course it started actually experiencing some of those abuses like, um, the stuff like, you know what, let me go look at movies that you have in your house.

27:41

And, uh, you know, one time I ran into some, some, some friends from Bible college and church at the movie theater and they were terrified when they saw me, they thought they were going to get in trouble because I'm going to tell on them that they went to a movie, you know, that sort of a thing.

27:53

It was just, I started to see like the cultural part of it that wasn't rooted in scripture. Um, uh, you know,

27:59

Elvis Presley, Elvis Presley, gospel music was anathema. Elvis Presley gospel music was, it was anathema, you know, just like, you can't listen to this.

28:07

You can't do this. I mean, there's even videos you can see today of, you know, uh, some of these guys saying what people are a lot, what people should be drinking, you know, don't drink juice.

28:16

Um, and in terms of like, do you have a TV in your house, you know, and condemnation of those sorts of things.

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So there's, you know, there's stuff here that's in terms of the abuse of scripture, but there's also the sociological manipulation that often occurs in the cults that is happening within this segment that is also concerning to me.

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And, and, you know, when you and I had to make decisions as well, what are we going to respond to? Cause I'm being attacked every single day from the cults and atheists.

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I mean, hundreds and thousands of messages are coming in. So we have to make decisions as to who we're going to respond to and why and what's meaningful.

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And I agree with you that this is a concern that I have because I have a special place in my heart for these people, but also in terms of the people that are being abused here.

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Um, that's, that's why it's so very important. And you can see that behavior. Um, I would just ask people who are watching this right now that are part of this movement.

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I would ask you to consider the kind of conduct that glorifies

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God in terms of interaction. When you've seen Dr. White or myself interact or other, you know, reform guys interact with somebody who's in a culture or Islam.

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Do you see this kind of abusive behavior? Like, are you seeing, are you seeing what's in accordance with godliness?

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Now, don't get me wrong. I talk all the time about the need for the serrated edge, right? But you, when you see the serrated edge used by the apostle

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Paul or the Lord Jesus or any of the old Testament prophets in the scriptures, you see a serrated edge used with balance and a purpose for the glory of God and his character upholding that and truth and not about protection of me or my organization or promoting me.

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You always see it in terms of protection of the glory of God, the character of God, those sorts of things. If you, if, if the first thing you do is grab this, um, you got a problem because we may be given this, but I would rather use a scalpel to remove and heal immediately than be called upon to use this to defend the flock, um, or to take out a false teacher or something along those lines.

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And here's the problem. This appeals to my ego and to my flesh to go here first, because if I use the scalpel, um, people aren't going to see that and they're not going to necessarily comment upon that.

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And so the point is that our default should always be grace first and allow the spirit to lead.

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There have been some times, and you've probably experienced this as well, maybe out in Mesa, Salt Lake City, whatever the situation or context might be, where I have been constrained by the spirit to, in an unusual way.

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I mean, Rich will tell, Rich will tell you, um, that back in, back in the day, um, hey

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Rich, uh, I was going to say, Rich will tell you that back in the day you and I had to have some conversations about your flesh.

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Yes. In the witnessing situation. Uh, in fact, all I have to do is say, go for it buddy. Uh, to remind

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Rich of his younger days in, in Mesa. Yeah. Okay. That's natural for us.

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We have to learn to be the instrument of the spirit to bring peace first and foremost.

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But there have been times when, for example, I am ministering the gospel to someone and someone else tries to swoop in to try to take someone away, um, like Bar Jesus, uh, in Acts.

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And at that point I'll, I'll get out the spiritual version of that in a second.

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Right. And take someone right off at the, at the top. Yeah. But that has to be a rarity, not the regularity.

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And when you see guys like this sitting around talking to each other in that constant swinging the sword mode, that is not only destructive to the churches they're in, but that's destructive to them.

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I mean, from my perspective, they cannot keep that up for a very long period of time before they're going to be swinging at each other and then swinging at their wives and their children and everybody close to them.

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And they are going to be a wreck. Right. And I think just as, as something put down as the foundation of all this, it should be the scriptures that guide us in terms of what is, what is

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Holy Spirit inspired conduct? What does this look like? And if you look at the life of Jesus, you look at the apostles and, and you don't see this constant, constant, constant hacking, sword, chop, chop, chop, kill, kill, destroy.

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When the apostle Paul says in Galatians chapter one, let them be anathema, like, that's a pretty big deal for him to just drop that.

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Like, let me give this to you in the first couple of verses, anathema. It's like, whoa, Paul's serious here. He's very serious.

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Obviously. Why? Because look what he's saying. And he just opened up with this. It's a big deal. It wasn't something that he was constantly doing.

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And why? And the question we have to ask is like, how does Jesus, of course, through the grace of God and the drawing of the father, how does

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Jesus draw so many people to him in his ministry? It's, he's not doing it by destroying everybody.

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Like, why are so many sinners wanting to hang out with Jesus? Well, it's certainly not because he was abusive to them. He was straightforward with them.

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And of course, in our society today, this is the other thing. These folks give us all a bad name in front of the world, because they are the stereotypical, in your face, using language of others.

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It's extremely disrespectful. And people will say, there's, there's Christianity. And the bad thing is, since they're called Baptists, if I'm a

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Baptist. You get lumped in. You get lumped in and we can't expect other people to make the differentiation and realize

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Baptist really doesn't actually express a whole lot. I mean, it, all it talks about is mode of, mode of one particular ordinance of the church.

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And there are non -Trinitarian Baptists. And I mean, it's not a definitional defining term.

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It's a little bit strange along those lines. And so there's all sorts of reasons to do this kind of discussion.

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But again, we keep going off topic. Let's, let's get to, do you want to, let's, let's skip past, let's see, you were possessed by a devil sobriety issue.

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I'm a stinking Fruit Loop. And that's meant, by the way, did you know that the rainbow over the

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Grand Canyon is also meant to be a Fruit Loop thing. It's supposed to be homosexual. I'm not sure why

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God would, would continue to do that rainbow thing. But that was just a picture of it.

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Pretty sure God owned that first. I think, I think he did. And then effeminate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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Let's go to, let's get to one of the key issues. And that is the subject of regeneration and the issue of salvation, because it truly concerns me when

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I can hear men mocking fundamental biblical doctrines, just simply based on their own ignorance and their own lack of study and their own embracing of traditions.

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So let's dive into this, and I may be too close to this.

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You may end up hearing him accusing me of something. Let me, let me get a little bit farther here. Okay, let's see if we got it.

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Makes you saved, gives you the grace that faith is the gift of God. Okay, I actually went a little bit too far behind.

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I'm just trying to avoid some language I wouldn't want people necessarily have to endure. First, regenerates you, makes you saved, gives you the grace that faith is the gift of God.

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You can't find that in the Bible, and then all of a sudden you're saved even before you hear the gospel. That way, once you hear it, then you've already got the faith, you already have the

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Holy Spirit, you're already regenerated, you already repented your sins. What a bunch of, I mean, talk about the stupidest way to reverse the simplicity of the gospel.

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You hear it, you believe it, you're saved, then the Holy Spirit comes and lives inside of you, and it just shows how perverted they are from the top down.

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Okay, so, perverted from the top down. Their perspective, interestingly enough, is that man has the innate capacity as a sinner.

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I don't know what this guy believes, but I know that the fellow I'm doing the interaction with does not believe in original sin.

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He doesn't? Does not. That's a Roman Catholic doctrine. And so he rejects that. He said Calvin and the reformers got stuff from the mommy, from the mother church.

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So he rejects original sin. And so there is a radically different anthropology amongst these guys.

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Oh, yes. Even though it doesn't seem to me that they systematically have any understanding of where they stand in the history, because all those other people weren't saved anyway, so who cares what they believe?

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So they don't read anything in history. They don't know they're reinventing heresies of the past. Yes. Stuff that's been addressed.

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It's been addressed over and over again, and they don't know how it was. There's an amazing level of arrogance to that when you think about it.

37:23

Oh, yeah. It's the modernist arrogance. Oh, very much so. Very dismissive to God's work, his power in history through godly men and women.

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It really, truly is insulting. It is. It is so insulting. And I don't want to just start casting stones here, but I do want to say that is a prideful, prideful mindset.

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Very prideful. Very haughty. Very, very haughty. So their anthropology is that man is not the enemy of God.

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Right. Is not constantly in love with his own sin.

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Man can do what is good apart from God's grace. There is a, ironically, strongly semi -Pelagian, they probably don't know what that means, but a semi -Pelagian bent to this.

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And in fact, what's strange is they don't realize this, but they are very much on Rome's side of these issues in the

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Reformation. I'm so glad you brought that up. Oh, yeah. They love to take shots at Rome, but they don't realize that on the issue of anthropology of man, the doctrine of man, they are as Romish as you can possibly get.

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But briefly, he said, that's not in the Bible anywhere. And I was very surprised when

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I heard that. I mean, I was surprised, of course, for the first few minutes and the things that were being lobbed. And it was just like, wow, wow. And I heard that.

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And that was the first moment I thought, that really is amazing to me. Have you really not really engaged on this issue at all?

38:55

No. Because to say that the Bible doesn't say that anywhere, that's... Sadly, I think

39:00

Andy Stanley said something similar in his interview. Did he really? That's amazing. Okay.

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So maybe just start it this way. So we start just throwing some things out. In terms of the condition of man, and then we'll talk about the faith thing, right?

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So the condition of man, how does Paul describe Romans chapters one through three? Our condition is that we are enemies of God.

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We are hostile. We are, in Romans chapter one, suppressing the truth and unrighteousness.

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As he goes along this long list of sins, there's none righteous, no, not one. Paul's portrayal of the fallen person is not ambiguous.

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It is clear you are an enemy of God. You are hostile towards God, actively suppressing the truth and unrighteousness.

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You are not good. You are, the poison of asps is under your lips. No fear of God before your eyes. You are helpless.

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You are a sinner. You are wicked. You are ungodly. That's in the first four chapters. That's the bad news.

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Of Romans, the bad news, right? So in Romans one, you have the universal sinfulness of man, have to deal with the Jews who think that's only about the

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Gentiles. Romans three, you put it all together, Jew and Gentile, all under sin, uk ha exeton tan theon, there is no

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God seeker. That's right. No one who seeks for God. No one seeking after God whatsoever. Let that hang over this discussion.

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And I want to say this with humility and grace and love to anybody who's watching this right now, who is associated with this movement.

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Let that hang over. We always hear these, these men saying things like, let the text speak.

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The simple text says this, the text says this. Well, here's the thing about this particular subject. It's not just that one line.

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No. That's it's definitional saying there's none who seeks for God. And maybe it's metaphors, some sort of just, you know, way of speaking, poetic.

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No, no. We're talking about four pretty significant chapters through the inspired apostle where he starts from the top.

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He works his way all the way down. He wipes across all of humanity and says, which way do you want me to say this?

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You all know the God that I'm talking about. You're all suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. You are an enemy of God. You are not seeking

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God. You are not good. No, not even one of you guys, Jew and Gentile together. You're one lump of helpless, ungodly, wicked sinner.

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And you are, by the way, in Adam, this representative, and there's only death there and only condemnation there.

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And if you're in Jesus over here, then there's the gift of righteousness and eternal life. And this, by the way, isn't just this one segment of Paul, where he's having just a day, right?

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He's having a bad day. Cause then you move into another book, like Ephesians chapter two, then you see Paul actually giving even more definition to that condition where he says, you are dead in your sins and trespasses by nature, children of wrath, by nature, children of wrath and the glory of Ephesians two.

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And I know we're going to get to this cause it's in the faith as a gift of God. Ephesians two, you're dead in your sins and trespasses.

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I have a question. What can a dead man do? Are we going to let the text speak for itself? What can a dead man do?

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Dead in your sins and trespasses by nature, a child of wrath. And this is the glory of the gospel.

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But God made you alive. So there's the thing.

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You were dead, non -God seeking, hostile towards God, enemy, unrighteous, suppressing the truth and unrighteousness.

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You were dead, but God made you alive together. Now that,

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I think... God made it possible for you to make yourself alive together. No. He made you alive. You were a corpse lying there at the bottom of the sea in the darkness and God made you alive together with him.

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And by the way, when we talk about we've been saved by grace, I want not the IFB definition of saved by grace.

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I don't even want as definitional, what some man says is God's salvation by grace.

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I'll take what the inspired apostle said, where he says, you were dead by nature, a child of wrath.

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He says, but God made you alive together with him by grace, you've been saved.

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So for Paul, when he attaches that by grace, you've been saved, he says this, you were dead. God made you alive.

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Not you made yourself alive. Or we're so alive, you could choose to allow God to do this. That's right. That's right. It's very, very clear, very, very compelling.

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It's not, and anyone who's ever come to fully understand that, it's a soul, it's a pride and soul shattering thing.

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Yes. To fully realize that. Yes. And I understand that many of these folks were one with a gospel presentation that put all the weight upon them and not upon, and presented

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God as someone who's trying his hardest and you just need to...

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Give him a chance. Give him a chance. Yes. Try Jesus type thing. That's not what we have in the

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New Testament scriptures in any way, shape and form. So when, now... The faith part.

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One thing, when you say man, what can man do? We're not saying that man, when we say man is a corpse, we're not saying he's inactive.

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We're saying that my will is limited in what it can and cannot do based upon what my nature presents to my will.

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And because I'm enslaved to sin, then as Jesus said, you've got two kinds of people.

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You've got those who are slaves to sin and those who have been freed, who are now sons. Yeah. And if you continue his words, then you're sons and you'll be set free.

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And as soon as he said that, the Jews are like, we don't have to be set free from anybody. They're offended. We've never been enslaved.

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Under the boot of Rome. I love this. So blind. Oh, just amazing.

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I love it. So, but a lot, they will often respond by saying, we're active all the time.

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There's all sorts of false religions and people are rebelling against God. No, I recognize that.

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But Romans 8 says those who are according to the flesh cannot submit themselves to the law of God.

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If the law of God says repent, Romans 8 says you cannot submit yourself to the law of God. You cannot do what is pleasing to God.

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Obviously to repent and believe is pleasing to God. You have no capacity. U dunetai, not able.

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Straightforward. You want to believe the text? Not able. The King James says the same thing. That's right. The very same Greek text, the

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King James translators use. I should use my Stephanos text because they use the 1550 Stephanos right there.

45:14

That's one of the versions that they use. You all have to admit you're a little jealous that this is in here.

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Yeah. That's what they use. We can look it up in there. It's the same Greek, not able to do.

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That means, but God has to be actually, but God, not, but God ordained a plan, not, but God made a way available.

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If you would, but do something it's God. And that means the gospel is focused upon him and not upon us.

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And that's what's so offensive to people. And that's what's offensive. Well, really, when you think about that, it's not only offensive to these guys, but it's offensive to Roman Catholicism.

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It's offensive to any synergistic system. It just depends on how far they want to go with it. One thing that I find so interesting about this is these false statements and accusations and claims about either you or I that we're teaching a workspace salvation system.

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First of all, have you read the God who justifies, do you know how much Roman Catholic apologists do not like Dr.

46:12

White and write against him because he's teaching faith alone, faith alone, faith alone. I find it. I find this, that accusation actually compelling because it's us on this side of history and in the scriptures that are, that are saying, no, no, no, no.

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It is so much grace that it was before the world began that God put this grace upon you that you didn't deserve.

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And it wasn't based on anything in you. That's what for no mean. Yeah. He chose to enter. It's a gracious choosing based upon knowledge of who you're going to be before you ever took your first breath.

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That's right. And then Jesus comes in and he purchases me before I'm even born in the spirit of God actually comes into the life of a person who was so hostile towards God that in myself and my slavery,

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I would have never looked for him, chosen him. I was actively suppressing the truth of God. No, it was the spirit of God who opened my eyes and my heart.

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And it was that kind of grace that opened and raised me to life so that I could see Jesus and I could see my condition and trust in him and believe in him.

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Like, that's how gracious this is. It's from beginning all the way through. And he's going to keep me and preserve me all the way to the end.

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And he, it's all God. Like that's my story is I'm telling the world is that no, it's so much to the glory of God that yes, you are in it in terms of you're not a robot.

47:32

It's God who's actually taking somebody who, who is created in his image, who is making decisions and thinking and rational and all these different things and taking somebody that was so hostile and an enemy that never would have turned to God and actually with his love, raising me to life so that I could see who

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I am and see who he is and see him and believe like that whole story seems so gracious.

47:53

How could you confuse that in any way with works? I actually think it's, it's, it's confusing to me that you'd ever even get that idea.

47:59

Well, but I, but we have to understand where it comes from. We should explain to folks where it comes from. Yeah. Because they reject the sovereignty of God and his decree in salvation, they have to come up with the idea of a once saved, always saved, ticket punched faith that cannot be attached to the work of the

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Holy Spirit in a person's life to conform them to the image of Christ. Right. So there cannot be sanctification. There cannot be submission to the

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Lord. There cannot even be repentance from sin. These guys will actually immediately say, if you preach repentance to sin, you are going to hell.

48:35

So Jesus and John? I don't even know how you deal with stuff like that. I probably on a dispensational level, that was one dispensation.

48:42

We're in a different, I don't know. I'd be interested. Yeah, you're right. There's probably something there. Yeah. There's gotta be some way around it because repentance is so obviously a central part of the apostolic message, but, but that's the mindset.

48:52

And so from, honestly, Jeff, I remember the day this struck me, there is, there are two pits you can fall into on this issue of the nature of faith and works.

49:07

And as far as I can tell, only the reformed understanding provides the balance to walk between these two pits because the

49:16

Bible is plain as day. Without holiness, no man will see

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God. That's right. Test yourselves to see whether you're in the faith. Conform the image of Christ.

49:28

I mean, it's there. You can't ignore it. And these guys make that for super Christians. There are, I was listening to one guy this morning in preparation for this, and there are special people that decide to be disciples and they do this stuff, but we don't have to worry about that to be saved.

49:46

So you don't have to be under the Lordship of Christ to be saved. So you've got the Holy Spirit within you. Evidently you're grieving the

49:52

Holy Spirit every single day, but that's cool. I mean, it is such an incoherent system. It's hard to even begin to understand it, but that's what you've got on this side.

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But then on the other side, once you recognize that the

50:06

Bible does teach that faith is a gift from God, it is a work of the

50:12

Holy Spirit, that it is all a part of what God does, once you recognize that you can't just, what these guys do, and this is very, very common, is you take the word saved and then you take all the categories of what

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God does and you confuse them by subsuming them just under the word saved.

50:31

So the Bible tells us that regeneration is not the same thing as justification, which is not the same thing as sanctification, which is not the same thing as adoption.

50:39

These guys don't think in categories. Categories, that's the issue. They do not think in categories.

50:45

They mix and match them up as they see fit and the result has to be a massive dumbing down of the deep biblical message.

50:57

So they can look at adoption, that's just being saved, and then make that the same thing as regeneration.

51:03

No, no, no, they are not the same thing. That's why there's different words used. And they just, that's why

51:08

I remember back in my fundamentalist style days,

51:15

I remember that one of the big arguments was in 1 Corinthians 1, when it contrasts those who are perishing to those who are being saved.

51:26

Now that I know the original languages, there's a direct parallel between the two. You've got to be consistent with how you're translating these two things.

51:34

But there were people that were like, well, you can't use that Bible translation because it's being saved. And we know you're just saved.

51:40

You're not being saved. So they cannot allow for different categories. They cannot allow for, yes, there is a sense that I am in Christ.

51:48

I am seated in the heavenly places, but I am being saved. I am still in this world. God has a purpose in my being here.

51:54

Day by day, God is changing me. God is healing me. They can't allow that. Those category distinctions are anathema to them.

52:03

And so they end up coming, they end up bringing this into their exegesis and you sit there and you hear them read a text and what they come up with, you're just left going, where did they get that from?

52:15

It's because they have this huge tradition that they can never examine because if they start to examine it, that's apostasy.

52:23

That's how you get labeled as a heretic. That's part of the sociological manipulation that exists within the cults that we're always trying to confront and condemn and reveal.

52:31

And it's sad and scary that you find it in the mouths of people who profess the Trinity and the

52:36

God's inerrant word and all those things. It is compelling. Except if you use their exegetical methodology, you'd never come up with the

52:43

Trinity in the first place. That is simply something that they have imbibed and have accepted, but they could never go to the text and use their exegetical methodology to consistently derive the doctrine of the

52:55

Trinity. That's what they don't understand either because they're never pushed to do that. That's the problem. They mock exegesis.

53:02

They mock the idea of drawing out of the text of God's inspired word, what is

53:07

God really saying? Not what does my tradition say, not what do I think it says, but drawing out of the text, what does

53:13

God say? I want to know what Jesus meant. I want to know what Paul taught and not what my tradition says, my doctrinal statements, even church history in terms of that's the standard.

53:23

That's not the standard. The word of God is. So having the word of God be the central reference point that you're drawing out of the text, let the

53:29

Bible speak, let us speak together. And they mock exegesis. And as a result, they cannot test their traditions.

53:37

If you don't do exegesis, you can never say, thus saith the Lord. The best you can do is, here's what my thoughts are, but I can't tell you this is actually what scripture says.

53:47

So he said, just maybe we just toss this quickly. He said, faith, that's nowhere in the

53:54

Bible that God gifts you faith or repentance. I found that, we said that already, I found that pretty compelling because the question is, have you looked into that friend?

54:04

Have you tried to see if there's a reason people are making this claim?

54:10

For example, when he said, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God gifts you faith. I thought, actually, it says it exactly like that.

54:17

Philippians 129, to you, it has been gifted. It has been granted not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer for his sake.

54:25

So here's again, the inspired apostle, word of God saying to you, it has been gifted, granted to believe in Jesus.

54:34

Now there's more. Standard term, pisteo, that's used there to believe in him. And I think the main reason that people don't recognize

54:41

Philippians 129 for the verse that it is, is because of the end of the verse, but also to suffer in his behalf.

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And we see the suffer part, and Paul does not expand upon the idea of faith as a gift there.

54:56

So it's very easy to pop over it because what he's, he is really a focus upon is the suffering and the fellowship and so on and so forth in that suffering.

55:05

But the very fact that he can just mention it in passing means that it was an already understood common element of the

55:12

Christian faith that the Philippians already understood. They did. And in terms of who's writing this, well, that's the apostle

55:18

Paul. Do we have any other scriptures where the apostle Paul is talking and speaking about the gospel, salvation, our regeneration?

55:27

Is he ever having this discussion in terms of our condition and what God has done to bring us to him? Well, yeah, it's a consistent part of his teaching,

55:33

Ephesians chapter two, that text where he says, we were dead in our sins and trespasses by nature, children of wrath, but God made us alive together with him by grace, you've been saved.

55:42

So there's his standard. And then it says, of course, and I know every independent fundamental Baptist has this memorized. Because I had this drilled into me in that church and in Bible college, but not verse 10.

55:55

It was always two, eight through nine. And I'll let you do this. Well, you know what?

56:00

Because, let me find this for you because this was in one of the videos about you,

56:12

Jeff Durbin's hidden work salvation stuff. And it's one minute and 40 seconds in, isn't that neat to be able to know exactly where it is and it's going to be cited.

56:26

And so let's listen to what you said and then we can listen to the partial citation from Ephesians two.

56:39

Church doesn't have a statement, a belief.

56:47

By the way, where was this? Oahu. It looked like Hawaii. Why aren't you wearing a Hawaiian shirt? You're out of uniform.

56:52

I am out of uniform. I should have. I saw you and I was like, he wore a Hawaiian shirt. That's what everybody wears there.

56:58

By the way, just in terms of reference, guys, I would encourage you to go look up these videos of this ministry in Hawaii.

57:04

We're ministering to the Mormon population in Hawaii. I spoke for two hours before this question and answer period on the differences between Mormonism, the

57:12

Mormon Jesus, the Mormon gospel versus Jesus and the true Jesus and the biblical gospel. Why should context matter?

57:18

Right. And you can look in that message and see how much I talked about it's faith alone, apart from any works.

57:26

And I basically, I anathematized the Mormon gospel. Which you have to. For its combination of faith and works.

57:31

We notice by grace we're saved after all we can do. Notice by grace we're saved in spite of all we've done. Exactly. So if you would have just looked at, and I think even in this clip itself,

57:39

I said it's only faith that brings us to Christ. That's the instrument that brings us to Christ. So all you're doing now after all that time is addressing the biblical balance of recognizing that God doesn't just save us by faith and then leave us.

57:52

He has a purpose in bringing us into relationship with Christ, placing his spirit within us.

58:00

Titus 2, which they like to quote a lot. They only quote Titus 2 11. They don't continue on from there.

58:06

This grace has appeared bringing salvation to all men. And what does that grace do? It teaches us to deny ungodliness.

58:12

And to live soberly and righteously. And it's a grace that teaches.

58:20

And so it's not just some prevenient grace that appears to everyone. This is saving grace because it, and that's

58:26

God's purpose in our lives. He's a real God, a real savior, a real gospel. And real grace that actually does something that he intends to accomplish.

58:34

That says that true faith is always accompanied by works.

58:39

Now, by the way, I noticed that the beard's not nearly as... It was, yeah, it was chopped down. I don't know what

58:44

I was thinking. Yeah. Well, I'm just simply looking here that there's some gray down there in that part.

58:52

I can name each one too. I can't. That that faith doesn't understand the gospel.

58:59

Let's see what the Bible says. Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

59:10

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Now, how could you have missed that,

59:15

Jeff? I mean, it's right there. Yeah. Oh, that's a, sorry. That's your ninja sword. Oh, okay.

59:21

We're safe. We're safe. Go ahead. So, so yeah,

59:28

I, I actually, that's what I was teaching. I was, I was teaching that night, Ephesians 2, 8 and 9.

59:34

Only I also talked about verse 10, which is conveniently left out of this verse here. Holding this together in balance.

59:40

But before we get to that though, let's, let's go ahead and, and, and talk about when it says it is the gift of God.

59:50

Yeah. This is important. This is important. People argue, what is the gift of God?

59:57

Now it's interesting. These guys might borrow this from somebody else, but it would seem to me that given their overall

01:00:05

King James only -ism, going into the original language just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense with these guys.

01:00:12

Some of them will, I don't, but I've not heard any of them do this. But for those who recognize that the

01:00:19

Christian faith existed for a long time before the English language existed and who have a problem with the idea that God actually re -inspired the

01:00:27

Bible a second time, the question is you have grace, salvation, and faith, and it says, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

01:00:42

Now people will say, well, grace, salvation, faith, you have masculines and feminines there, but that not of yourselves is a neuter.

01:00:56

In the Greek language, there are genders. I'm not sure if our modern society is going to try to, by law, change that.

01:01:03

Change that. That ridiculous rule of Greek. Yeah. I'm not sure that's really going to work, but anyway, maybe we won't be able to teach

01:01:10

Greek anymore because it'll trigger people. It'll be offensive and trigger people. We laugh, but unfortunately there are people in California going, oh,

01:01:20

I hadn't thought about that before. That's a great idea. With their new governor, he'd sign anything.

01:01:26

There you go. People will say that not of yourselves, it can't be faith because they're different genders.

01:01:36

Then sort of left going, we don't know. The reality is those who read the original language regularly recognize that the neuter is used as a summary style of a pronoun or demonstrative pronouns, things like that in the neuter can be used to wrap up an entire preceding phrase.

01:02:00

He doesn't have to identify which one it is. He's saying, everything came before, for by grace are you saved through faith.

01:02:11

None of that has its origin in you because it was God in the preceding verses who raised you up, made you alive.

01:02:21

It's not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. Grace is a gift of God. Salvation is a gift of God.

01:02:27

Faith is the gift of God. It's not of works. Of course, the ease with which these guys ignore the different ways that Paul uses works.

01:02:40

There's times when Paul uses works in regards to, we have been created unto good works in the next verse, works of righteousness over against either works that mark us off as Jews, like circumcision, or works done in the flesh.

01:02:58

You can't just assume that every use of the word works has the same reference and the same meaning.

01:03:04

You have to look at context. Not of works. The contrast here, same contrast you have

01:03:11

Romans 4, 4 through 5, the one who works, the one who does not work, the one who does not work, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

01:03:17

Not of works, why? Lest any man should boast. If there was any merit, if there was anything in and of ourselves that would differentiate us from others, if it was a system where it's just God makes it available and, hey, you and I were smart enough and sensitive enough and spiritual enough to make it work and all those poor folks can end up in hell.

01:03:41

What a bummer. They weren't quite as sensitive and smart as we were. Well, we could boast, but there's no basis for boasting because as Paul says in 1

01:03:50

Corinthians chapter 1, it is by his doing that you are in Christ Jesus who has become to us all these things. Therefore, if anyone's going to boast, let them boast in the

01:03:57

Lord. So not of works, lest any man should boast. So how do you stop your citation there and skip verse 10?

01:04:08

That's key. How? It is key. By the way, it matches the rest of the chapter, the whole concept, because he did this in you, because he is doing all this in you.

01:04:22

But the one thing I see in these guys preaching is they do not see the importance of following an argument through a text.

01:04:31

And I'm thankful, we were talking about the Stephanus text down there, I'm thankful for brother Stephanus, Robert Estienne, for having inserted the verses in 1551.

01:04:40

But, but I have decried this for a long period of time now.

01:04:47

It does tend to break the text up so that we do not follow the flow any longer.

01:04:54

And so we memorize verses, but whenever you memorize verses, the hundred verse memorization system, one of the things

01:05:02

I did there, you've got to know what comes before, you've got to know what comes after, you've got to know where this was in the flow of argument.

01:05:08

And so I've met people, how many Mormons have we met that can quote

01:05:13

James 2 .10? It's the first thing they whip out. 2 .14 or 2 .20, but they don't know anything about 2 .10

01:05:19

and 2 .14, or they can, they don't even know, I've had Mormons say, Paul wrote James, James's words, and they have no earthly idea what the context is, anything along those lines, any group can do that.

01:05:32

Hey, Calvinists can do that too. Absolutely, absolutely. That's pretty rare. Let's be honest.

01:05:38

I've not really run into too many people in that particular, because hopefully exegesis is modeled from the pulpit on a regular basis in that context.

01:05:47

That's a healthy culture to have. It is. But I could see how in certain ones of these churches, you could not know what was in verse 10 and still be in good standing with everybody else.

01:05:59

And you haven't read it, but if anyone's wondering, maybe you're driving along and you don't have your

01:06:04

Bible with you, for we are his thing that has been made.

01:06:11

Workmanship is a, that's a, I've never really fully understand that.

01:06:17

I mean, poema is something that you have formed. It's something you have accomplished.

01:06:23

And I wish we brought that out more because workmanship, we don't use that term in our

01:06:28

Right. We really don't. So it's like, what's that supposed to mean? Well, it means that our interpretation of verses 8 and 9 is continued into verse 10 consistently.

01:06:38

That's right. It's not, we have partnered together with God to bring about our own salvation.

01:06:45

We do partner together with God in the ministry of the word, in the proclamation of the gospel.

01:06:52

He calls us to do these things. We do that. But when we're talking about ourselves, no, we are his poema.

01:06:59

We are his object of work created and literally in Christ works.

01:07:08

But I had a conversation once, I don't know if I've ever mentioned to you,

01:07:14

Dr. J. Niles Puckett. Dr. Puckett was one of the,

01:07:20

I think one of the founding professors in the forties of Grand Canyon College. I think you did mention it before, but I forget.

01:07:27

He studied under A .T. Robertson. Okay. Okay. So it's A .T. Robertson, J. Niles Puckett, Michael Baird, me.

01:07:34

That's my Greek genealogy as far as that goes. So Dr. Baird studied under Dr.

01:07:40

Puckett. Now, Dr. Puckett continued teaching forever there. And so I did, he did fill in for a couple of classes

01:07:45

I was in. He was longtime member of the little church that I was, little church, the big church I was in. And one of the greatest compliments ever paid to me was during, after I was teaching an adult

01:07:56

Bible study at North Phoenix Baptist Church, and you'd, you'd teach the adult part and then they break up into groups.

01:08:02

And so I was done with my part. I was going to get a drink and I ran into Dr. Puckett out in this huge, they had three, three story buildings.

01:08:09

I mean, I don't know if you've seen the campus. Oh yeah, it's massive. Massive. And he ran into me and talk about knowing how to encourage a young guy.

01:08:19

He says, he knew who I was. He says, could I ask you a question? No. Okay. This is scary. Could I ask you a question?

01:08:28

He says, in, when Paul in Corinthians says that God was in Christ, reconciled, now he was from Mississippi, so I'm not making fun of him.

01:08:39

This is how he talked. God was in Christ, reconciling the world. How do you understand the dative form there?

01:08:48

Now, uh, yeah. Yeah, it's a, thankfully, uh, it was something that I had given consideration to because the, it's the same form here, in Christo.

01:09:05

And literally, N is in, but in the, what's called the dative,

01:09:14

I learned this as locative instrumental dative. So there's, there's location, there's instrumentality, and then dative is normally the, uh, case of the indirect object.

01:09:24

And there's relationships between all of these. And these prepositions are also extremely important. And I said, well, my understanding would be, uh, that this is an instrumental use.

01:09:36

And that is, God was by means of Christ, reconciling the world. Not that God, the father was spatially in someone named

01:09:46

Jesus. Because not only does that lead to Trinitarian issues, uh, because it was the son, not the father, uh, that was in Christ.

01:09:55

And, um, but anyway, uh, but Christ was the means by which this reconciliations were done.

01:10:00

He says, that's how I understand it. It's like, yeah, I'm so happy. Life is good.

01:10:06

I just graduated from college or something, whatever it was. Um, but it's the same, it's the same thing here.

01:10:12

I would say created by means of Christ or by Christ. Uh, now you could see, you could, you could use it locatively,

01:10:20

I think in the sense of in the sphere of Christ, sort of like an Ephesians one, maybe, cause that is, you know, in Christ, in Christ, in Christ, but since it uses created and who is, who is, who is

01:10:31

Christ. I mean, I love the emphasis that could be seen here of Christ's personal extension of divine power in the forming of his own body.

01:10:42

Um, and that means the redemption of each individual person. I mean, that's, that's the hymn, my name is written on his hands.

01:10:51

I mean, that's really where you see biblical basis for that. So created in Christ Jesus, by Christ Jesus, epi ergoes agathoes, unto good works, unto good works.

01:11:05

And then the relative pronoun matching that, which God prepared beforehand for the purpose that we should live in them.

01:11:18

And that term to walk is just in, in, in the original language is often referred to just simply not, not, it's not walking along.

01:11:26

It is living in the realm of these good works. God preordained that if you are created by Christ Jesus, not in the sense of creation, but his workmanship,

01:11:42

God's entire intention of your life is that you are to dwell in the realm of good deeds.

01:11:50

That's his purpose. Yeah. And it's only when you take the focus off of what God's purpose in salvation is and put it on our purposes in salvation.

01:12:00

I'm, I'm escaping hellfire. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm trying Jesus and making things work better in my life.

01:12:07

None of that's the gospel. None of that is the gospel. The gospel is about God and God's glory.

01:12:15

And what God has done in Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. And once you understand all of that, it makes demands upon me.

01:12:24

I need to bow the knee. And the result is incredible. I'm adopted.

01:12:30

I'm given forgiveness of sins. I have eternal life, but that we take the stuff that's here and bring it up here to the front and then get rid of all the rest of that stuff.

01:12:40

And that's what you have in the IFB KJV only movement. Yes. And I think that one, and you, you mentioned something,

01:12:46

I think that speaks for itself in terms of the texts you've gone through. That's, that's, I think that's a beautiful story. I want that story.

01:12:51

That's the reality. That's a real salvation. That's a God who really saves, who really brings me to himself, who really works out this salvation in this way that brings him glory.

01:13:01

And I can rest and have comfort in that, that I belong to him and he's changing me and transform me and shaping me.

01:13:06

And so I think that that's beautiful. But you mentioned in terms of the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the gospel itself, the

01:13:13

Bible calls that the gospel, the kingdom, it calls it God's God, God's gospel, the good news.

01:13:19

Like when you look at how it's proclaimed through the apostles, the message, the apostolic message in Jesus, how it's preached, you see

01:13:26

Jesus saying things like all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Like I have all authority there and here.

01:13:33

Therefore, because of all the authority is mine. Now go make disciples of all the nations.

01:13:39

Why? Because I have all authority, not just in heaven here, here now. So go get them and baptize them in the name of the father, son,

01:13:46

Holy spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. That's how Jesus, that's how

01:13:52

Jesus goes. That's how he ascends. And when you look at how Paul is describing the gospel and first Corinthians 15, when he talks about Jesus, what he's accomplished, how he describes it as he's now seated on that throne, putting his enemies under his feet, that and the last enemy to be defeated as death.

01:14:07

So the way that the apostles are proclaiming the gospel as a going out in the book of Acts, and you see Jesus talking about it, John talking about, they're talking about repent.

01:14:13

They're talking about turn from sin, trust in Jesus Christ, be saved, turn away from this wicked generation.

01:14:19

All of that is in terms of Christ and who he is, his Lordship and his accomplishment.

01:14:25

And it's not a, it's not even, it's not coming out in the new Testament anywhere as, can you just give him a chance?

01:14:31

Can you just give him a try? I mean, I saw Rick Warren years ago on Fox news at Christmas time. I say exactly that on cross on Fox news.

01:14:38

He says, he says something to the effect of, can you just give, give him a 90 day trial. He said, give

01:14:43

Jesus a 90 day trial. My heart broke. I was watching that alive on, on, on Christmas and my heart broke.

01:14:50

Can you imagine a king? I know. What you win them with is what you win them to. That's right. And can you give Jesus a chance?

01:14:56

Can you just pray this magic prayer? No, the call of the gospel goes out. I mean, you can start, where do you want to start?

01:15:01

You want to talk about Matthew chapter three, Matthew chapter four, John the Baptist comes in first words out of his mouth is repent. The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

01:15:08

Then Jesus enters as he comes out of this, this trial in the wilderness. Now Jesus comes out in the first words out of his mouth are repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

01:15:18

And he goes about proclaiming the good news of the kingdom. So when you start thinking, even just in how we're talking now about how

01:15:26

Jesus and Paul and all the apostles talk about the kingdom of God and the gospel itself, it's in terms of his lordship, his majesty, his kingdom, his power, his authority.

01:15:35

And it's, this is who you are. This is what he's accomplished. Repent of your sin and come to the savior.

01:15:42

That's the call. It's very, very different from what I first heard. Yeah. Oh yeah.

01:15:47

From what I first heard as a young man, very much focused as a life insurance policy. Do you want to go to hell?

01:15:53

No. Okay. Ready? Close your eyes. Yep. Say this prayer with me. Did you say that prayer?

01:15:59

Yeah. Good. You're saved. You're going to heaven. Bingo. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting too. We talk about, you know, all of the slander and just awful, just false witness that this man has engaged in and these men have engaged in.

01:16:09

Well, that the, I'm going to just, I'm going to just say this. It is precisely that message that impacted me after I had,

01:16:17

I was a professing believer. Right. And then I went off into drug and alcohol addiction for a year of depravity and it was the message of the biblical gospel.

01:16:26

When God had me in a place where he just annihilated my life and all I had was him and his word. It was that understanding that Christ calls me to come and die.

01:16:37

And I had to ask the question, has that ever actually happened to me? Did I ever really understand the message of the gospel to come and turn to him for life?

01:16:45

I'd really asked, you know, did I, or was I just, you know, just trying to escape hell one day? Do I want Jesus now?

01:16:51

There are so many things because everything you're saying keeps bringing stuff up and I, oh, we could talk about that.

01:16:56

Oh, we could talk about that. There's so many things that I'm, that I'm looking at here. I mean, let me just mention a couple of things.

01:17:05

These guys, one of the things that motivates these guys is that they are afraid. And here is a section, if you want to listen, let's, let's listen to one of the things that they are afraid of right here.

01:17:16

He gives you, and you know, the repentance and faith and inseparable graces thing, that Calvinist doctrine, it's on a lot of, you know, independent fundamental

01:17:24

Baptist doctrinal statements. I mean, I was just looking at some today. And when you look at their doctrinal statement, it says about repentance and faith being inseparable graces.

01:17:34

They're saying that God gives you those things. I mean, that is Calvinism right there. And it's just flat out wrong.

01:17:40

It's so easy to debunk from the Bible. And these guys would never admit to being Calvinist. But the thing, what's scary about it, you know,

01:17:45

I mean, I'll give people a pass on doctrinal statements sometimes, because sometimes they just copied and pasted it. They never went through it.

01:17:51

But, you know, even back when I wasn't real informed about the whole repentance battle and where everybody was on it, right before I started my church,

01:17:58

I was getting our doctrinal statement together. And I just, you know, I got one, I don't remember where it was from. I got one that I was going through it, looking at everything.

01:18:06

And I remember I saw that one on repentance and faith being inseparable graces. And I just, you know,

01:18:12

I took that out. I was like, that sounds way too Calvinist to me. But the thing is... So what they're afraid of is if we keep letting people, and he goes on to say this, if we keep letting people like read

01:18:22

Spurgeon or something like that, that's why so many are becoming Calvinist. That's what the fear here is.

01:18:28

They are seeing that there are people that are expanding their reading and they're going, wow, there's a whole lot more than this.

01:18:36

The Bible says that. And anybody who, for example, has to defend something like the resurrection from scripture over against someone who denies it, or over against the world that denies the existence of supernatural and learns how to do meaningful exegesis, so as to defend cardinal truths, and then starts applying that same standard of exegesis, you don't end up with this viewpoint that they have.

01:19:05

It goes a whole lot deeper. You start seeing connections between the beauty, the beauty of the woven tapestry of God's word.

01:19:13

You start seeing how themes are repeated in other books and yet in different words. And the simplicity that they try to say is actually just ignoring what the word actually contains.

01:19:24

They're just afraid of their churches becoming different and not looking the way that they have defined the only true

01:19:35

Christian faith to be, is this tiny little square. And that's what they're afraid of. That's what's going on here.

01:19:41

And so they send heritage... Yeah, let me play this one right here.

01:19:50

Yeah, here we go. That which is good. And so we need to let go of all these heretics like Charles Spurgeon and all these others that y 'all are burning in hell that were

01:19:59

Calvinists. So, as long as you're a Calvinist, you're burning in hell.

01:20:05

And so we don't want to do anything with that. And then a little bit later on, this one was interesting.

01:20:15

I skipped past a bunch of stuff because they really started getting into some of this stuff within their own little tribe, which must be really interesting.

01:20:23

I don't even want to think about it. But then we've got this. It says in Billy Graham, they both teach the same thing. They both teach repent of your sins, don't they?

01:20:29

Oh, yeah. In fact, I've got it in my notes here on Northwest on their statement of faith.

01:20:35

It says that we believe that repentance and faith are solemn obligations and inseparable graces brought in our souls by the quickening spirit of God, that they occur when we willfully and knowingly turn from our sin and by faith receive the

01:20:51

Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. So, I mean, that's got some Calvinism in there. That's got some worship salvation in there.

01:20:58

That's got turn from your sins. I mean, there is so much heresy in that little statement. We wouldn't want people coming to Jesus as Lord.

01:21:05

There is so much heresy in that one little statement. Wow. You're just left stunned.

01:21:12

It's a powerless gospel. It's a lordless gospel. It doesn't change anyone.

01:21:19

Yeah. From my mind, I trust in Christ because he saved me.

01:21:25

But one of the great things about knowing him is he's who he says he is. And this is real.

01:21:30

This isn't a story. This isn't a game. This is life. This is reality. Isn't it wonderful that God has a purpose in our lives?

01:21:36

There you go. Yes. Yeah. And it's not to leave us in where he found us. He's really saved me.

01:21:42

Like I really know him. He's in me. Like he's changed my heart. Like my affections have changed since he came into my life.

01:21:48

The spirit of God is so powerful. He can raise me to spiritual life and then conform in the image of Christ despite all that the world does and how many times

01:21:56

I face plant in stupid sin and everything else. That's right. Somehow Jesus claims in John 6 that those the father gives him, he doesn't lose a single one.

01:22:07

That's my hope. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. It's the only hope that anyone could ever have. That's right. Because if it was on me, it's up to me.

01:22:14

I'm done. We're done. I'm already done. That's how there is. But can we just talk for, I don't want to, I don't know where you're going next, but I don't want to take you off course there.

01:22:22

But should we talk about this issue? Because obviously we can go into the God gifting faith and you can show examples in the book of Acts of how that theme is coming out.

01:22:31

Those who were predestined, those who've been, you know, they repented, they believed that you have all of those indicators there in terms of the story coming out.

01:22:40

But this whole thing of like repentance and faith and separable graces, the gift of repentance.

01:22:46

Should we talk about that? Like the whole, because this is something that's a primary form of attack for them. This idea of repentance and submission to Christ.

01:22:54

Well, see what they see that it's not so much, you see, they don't understand. I see no evidence they understand that the reason we talk about the gifts of faith and repentance is we're not conflating them.

01:23:05

And we're not saying God believes for us or repents for us. We are slaves to sin.

01:23:11

Our nature has to be changed. Regeneration turns us into lovers of God. Lovers of God are going to believe in him and are going to have the right attitude toward him.

01:23:20

That's where these gifts come from. We have to, it's because of our state as dead rebel sinners, that we need to have these gifts of grace, which cannot be demanded of anybody.

01:23:31

But of course, if they don't believe in original sin, they don't have any basis to be really messing with Paul anyway.

01:23:37

He's not going to understand what he's arguing anyhow, because they missed that transitional section in Romans 5.

01:23:42

But especially when it comes to repentance, their mindset as to what repentance is.

01:23:49

And I had a friend of mine years ago that did a master's degree, I think at master's seminary on the anti -lordship movement.

01:23:57

And I don't know if you saw the debate I did against Wilkins. I did not. Many, many years ago. That was fascinating.

01:24:05

Boy, was he interesting. It's online somewhere.

01:24:11

I think it's on Sermon Audio and it's on YouTube someplace. But anyway, at that time, he really emphasized to me that what they are hearing us saying when we talk about repentance is an added, it's almost a pre -act of sanctification.

01:24:30

That is a work that makes us worthy to receive salvation.

01:24:36

That's what they're hearing. Rather than recognition that you are either living a life of repentance or you're living a life where you're defining what sin is going to be for you, rather than God defining what sin is going to be for you.

01:24:52

And you get to make things up as you go along. There's only those two ways that you can do it.

01:24:59

And so for them, every time they say, I'm going to hell because I'm teaching work salvation.

01:25:08

What they're saying is, you think that God has a purpose beyond merely nodding your head toward God when you say faith and repentance.

01:25:19

And though I recognize the differences between faith and repentance,

01:25:25

I also see that they are intimately related, not only because they're the work of the same spirit, but because to have true saving faith in who

01:25:35

Christ is, I cannot have that true saving faith and remain a rebel against him.

01:25:41

I can have knowledge of who Christ is. Like demons. Exactly. But remain in rebellion and not be repentant.

01:25:48

And so the mindset on their part flows from that kind of complete misunderstanding.

01:25:56

And again, it's refusal to engage in proper categories, to allow scripture to define its own terminology.

01:26:04

I remember years ago, someone had said within the fundamentalist movement,

01:26:10

I remember someone saying, you define a word by the first time it appears in scripture. And then you use that definition throughout the rest of scripture.

01:26:17

This results in a train wreck. You cannot do that.

01:26:24

But when you do do that, you end up having to compress all these, anything that doesn't fit into your very, very narrow paradigm ends up, you just have to deflate it.

01:26:32

You have to explain it away and hide it away. And it doesn't really mean that. And that's what they end up doing with repentance is they don't understand that it is an attitude that flows from submission to God.

01:26:46

He's my creator. He gets to define for me what is right and wrong for me. And I submit to that.

01:26:53

And therefore I turn away from what pleases my flesh. That's why it's not in here, but I shouldn't say this without playing it.

01:27:03

I'm going to do a whole Radio Free Geneva on it. In the Flowers Stanley dialogue, at one point,

01:27:11

I could not believe it. Stanley is literally sitting there. We need to make it as easy as possible for people to accept

01:27:18

Jesus. We just need to try Jesus. If you'll try Jesus, your life will be better.

01:27:25

And we hope that along the way, you'll find him to be a savior. Oh, good grief. And I'm sitting here going, try

01:27:33

Jesus? What happened to Mark's recording of Jesus in Mark 8?

01:27:40

Is that where you? I'm in Luke 14. Okay. It's probably parallel passage. Yeah. Where Jesus calls the crowds to himself and says, if anyone would be my disciple, what does he have to do?

01:27:54

Jesus didn't make it easy. Because when he said, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me.

01:28:02

Everybody in that day knew exactly what he meant. And it wasn't, you know, I've got a nice little, nice little cross on today.

01:28:10

That's not, that's not what taking up the cross meant. Everybody in that day had seen what the

01:28:16

Romans had done. Walking the road and every 30 yards is another either moaning, dying person being eaten by birds or a stinking corpse that's already died, one of the two.

01:28:30

They know what it means to take up the cross. Yeah. In other words, Jesus is saying, you want me by disciple?

01:28:36

Join the death march. Yep. Get in the death march. Get in the death march. Come die. That is not what

01:28:41

Andy Stanley was saying. That's right. By any stretch of the imagination. And that's not what these guys are saying.

01:28:47

They find that to be works. But again, the reformed person says that's not works because I'm not adding anything to what

01:28:54

Christ did. I'm simply recognizing that when he sends his spirit into my life, raises me to spiritual life,

01:29:00

I am made a new creature in Christ. And therefore as a new creature in Christ, I am going to believe in him, have faith, not just ascend, ascend to certain things, but there is fiducia.

01:29:11

There is trust that he is able to save me. There is a commitment there. And that's what is related to then repentance.

01:29:18

I cannot any longer live in my rebellion. I want to be in submission to him.

01:29:23

That's where faith and repentance meet. And since they are the work of the spirit of God within me, we're not saying this is something we do to make ourselves clean enough to be saved by God.

01:29:32

No, that's why this is not a violation. And the reformers never meant sola fide was solo fide, faith without any of the work of the spirit of God, solo gratia or anything else.

01:29:45

They recognized this was all the work of God. Only we can maintain the balance.

01:29:50

That's why I believe what I believe. Well, people need to hear this as well. For those who are trying to examine critically what this other side is saying versus what we're saying, it's important to recognize that we believe what

01:30:02

Paul says in Ephesians 2, that our condition is dead, nature, child of wrath. God makes us alive.

01:30:08

He's given us this grace, salvation. He's given us faith. And then he, where his workmanship created in Christ Jesus on two good works, all that's the work of God from through and through.

01:30:16

But in terms of how the Bible talks about like our being declared righteous before God, our justification before God, on what basis are we saying that the sanctification that occurs throughout my life, that that's the basis upon which

01:30:29

God declares me righteous? No, we're saying that that's the work of the spirit of God upon somebody who has already been made to have peace with God, declared righteous.

01:30:38

And the righteousness that I stand before the father in forever, is

01:30:43

Christ's righteousness alone. I am hiding in him. I want, what we're saying is what

01:30:49

Paul said in Philippians, where Paul says with his resume, you want to know how well I'm doing guys?

01:30:55

We'll try this, you know, circumcise the eighth day of the tribe of Benjamin, as to the law of Pharisee that you want to know how well

01:31:00

I'm doing, blameless. All right, before they, I'm blameless. I got, you got nothing on me. And then he says, but I count all this as dung.

01:31:11

I want none of it. He says, I want to be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law, but one that is in Christ.

01:31:20

So the point is, is that what we're saying is, is these categories that we're talking about in scripture of God declaring us righteous, not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of what

01:31:29

Christ has done, our instrument of faith he's granted to us, brings us to Jesus. We're in hiding in Christ with his righteousness.

01:31:36

Paul's whole description of this in Romans chapter four, when he says, God justifies the ungodly.

01:31:41

How can he do that? How does God justify the ungodly? Well, because the whole discussion explains it. Such a startling statement.

01:31:48

Remember what Joseph Smith did? Yeah. He had to change it. He said, God does not justify the ungodly. He negated the entire gospel because he never, ever understood grace.

01:31:58

Yeah. How could God justify the wicked? How's it possible? Well, there's only, through substitution. Substitution. That's right.

01:32:03

And so what Paul says there is that he counts us righteous apart from works.

01:32:09

And he does this and forgives us our sins, never remembers them and brings them up against us again.

01:32:15

But he does all of this. And there's all these different facets to us, counting us righteous in Jesus apart from works of law, not counting our sins against us.

01:32:25

You have to be able to think about all that because that's what God gives to us. He tells us, this is how he does this.

01:32:30

This is the glory of the gospel. But if these guys would be challenged to actually preach verse by verse and not just skip over phrases, because I listened to the fellow

01:32:41

I'm going to be dialoguing with in half an hour. I listened to what he preached on Romans chapter eight, and he just skipped over entire phrases and important elements of the argument because it just didn't fit into the framework.

01:32:55

But if you look at Romans four, four through eight, and follow the argument, you hear

01:33:03

Paul quote from Psalm 32, and yet he says, this is the blessedness of the man to whom

01:33:10

God imputes righteousness apart from works. And yet when you quote Psalm 32, it's all about non -imputation of sin.

01:33:18

You have to think categorically here. You have to be able to go, oh, if this is what the apostles saying that means, then

01:33:26

I need to make these category distinctions. If you don't do that, you end up babbling.

01:33:33

I mean, Paul ends up babbling. And I really wonder when they're standing up there in front of the people and they've not availed themselves of the wisdom of preceding generations and stand on the shoulders of giants to go, oh,

01:33:45

I, wow, there is a, there is a consistent theme all the way through this. Don't you,

01:33:51

I mean, I, I don't know about you, but you get up in front of the people of God.

01:33:59

And if there is not some sense of the sacredness of that duty and the weight of it, and if you don't get finished and go, you know,

01:34:10

Lord bless your people, despite all of my failings and everything else.

01:34:16

You know, I mean, we at Apologia, we don't have a lot of extra trappings that are not necessarily wrong.

01:34:32

You know, I travel so much. You're going to eventually discipline me for never showing up. I travel so much that I've been in a lot of different types of churches.

01:34:42

And I'm glad I have. I see the expression of the body of Christ and it's beautiful.

01:34:49

And I'm not one of those people that thinks that everybody has to look like, these guys think everybody needs to look like everybody else.

01:34:55

That's one of the problems. And we get a lot of criticism because of how we look.

01:35:01

But I've never gotten the feeling at Apologia that there's the idea that this is the only way it can be done.

01:35:08

Because I have another dear, dear friend. I spoke at his church in Texas sometime last year, and it was, he's associated with Doug Wilson.

01:35:23

It was very formal. He wears a robe. There was a tremendous amount of congregational interaction, standing, sitting, creeds, so on and so forth.

01:35:38

It was awesome. Because it wasn't just for the sake of form.

01:35:45

It all had a meaning. It was all tied together and it was plain what the tie together was.

01:35:51

And it was beautiful. And I can appreciate that. And to see,

01:36:00

I'm sorry, I started preaching and I shouldn't do that. I want to tag on just quickly to end of that.

01:36:06

That has been one of the most awesome experiences over the last years of ministry is traveling around the world to Northern and Southern Australia, New Zealand, Southern and Northern Ireland, Canada, all over the

01:36:18

United States. I have been asked to preach and it's been a privilege in very, very strong, hardcore

01:36:25

Presbyterian churches. And they're letting this Reformed Baptist come up, preach their congregation. They're welcoming me, welcoming me and loving me.

01:36:31

And Doug Wilson and I are friends. And one of my favorite things to do is to go and spend time with Doug and be with his family and his church and to be in his church service.

01:36:42

It's a blessing to see this expression and to be in Ireland and very strong, strict

01:36:49

Presbyterian churches. And to get to see how they worship the Lord and know the Lord. And I'm a

01:36:54

Baptist, they're a Presbyterian. We were in Australia recently preaching to bring the churches together to fight against abortion.

01:37:00

And there were Anglicans, Reformed Anglicans and Presbyterians and Baptists and the non -denominational denomination was there as well.

01:37:07

And it was so awesome. It was just glorious. And all of us are unified and tied together with the same message of the

01:37:13

Savior and the gospel. It's a powerful thing. And you know what I'm just saying guys, you are missing out.

01:37:18

Oh, big time. Yeah. When you anathematize everybody else, kick everybody else out. But at the same time,

01:37:26

I have to, if you don't rejoice in this message, if you don't rejoice in the

01:37:33

Lordship of Christ, if you don't rejoice in the reality of repentance, they wouldn't want to be a part of those churches because that's what binds us all together.

01:37:43

That's what I would like to believe. I try to believe the best of people. My hope and prayer is that they would hear these things.

01:37:51

And that over time, seeing that this kind of narrowness only builds a tremendous amount of walls, but it never accomplishes anything.

01:38:00

And when we're saying narrowness, just to make sure that this is on record, we're not saying open yourself up to anything.

01:38:06

We're saying narrowness of your own tradition. Exactly. That's the problem. Let me just do one other thing real quick here, because you'll find this interesting because I preached on this at Apologia a few months ago.

01:38:21

This fellow obviously heard something about this and brought it up.

01:38:27

So let's try to sneak this in in the last 10 minutes before we take a break before our debate.

01:38:33

You have the one where it says Jesus here or Lord there. It just shows you how foolish, how, and you know, they want to, well, maybe technology can help give us a better Bible.

01:38:41

Maybe we can dig up something in a cave. If your trust, if your confidence in God is something yet to be discovered, or maybe the computer can connect some numbers and teach us what it really means.

01:38:49

You're a fool. You don't believe in God. You trust in a computer. You trust in a scientist. You trust in an archeologist.

01:38:55

You're not trusting in the one true living God. So this was, he was saying that I hate

01:39:03

King James -only -ism because I wrote a book against it, obviously. And then he threw you in there too. And then he made reference, he didn't mention

01:39:12

Jude 5, but you heard Lord and Jesus there. And the only thing that I've, that, that I, you know,

01:39:17

I have spoken about that at G3, but I preached on it just a few weeks ago at Apologia.

01:39:25

So it's just fascinating to me that their commitment to King James -only -ism, this other guy,

01:39:33

I was going to play this, don't have time for it now. This other guy right after this says, you know, they, all they want to do is debate because they quoted you or whoever did this on the channel saying, we'll, we'll debate this.

01:39:45

That's all, that's all they want to do is they want to debate. And Romans 1 29 uses the term debate and it's always bad.

01:39:52

And I just, I sat back and first of all, I wondered what the

01:39:58

King James translators would think watching something like this. Oh yeah. Every King James translator would have looked at that and gone, oh, good grief.

01:40:06

Except they would have said, oh, goodness grief, or something. I don't know exactly what they would have done, but, but they, there is no way any one of them would have given the slightest moment's notice to someone who would think like this, because what you, what you do is

01:40:26

I popped up, I looked at Accordance real quick and I looked at the

01:40:31

Greek term that is underlying debate in Romans, because debate is an odd word to use. Most other translations will say something like contentions, divisions, issues like that.

01:40:44

Not debate in the sense of you take position A, I'll take position B, we'll have a formal debate, which is what we're talking about doing.

01:40:52

So without being able to go back to the original materials, they're stuck with whatever the

01:41:00

King James did. And yet the King James in most, in all but one other places where this term erodos is used, use a different word other than debate, contentions, strifes, divisions.

01:41:12

What they don't realize is that different committees translate different portions of the

01:41:17

New Testament. And so that's why you have the contradiction between Matthew and Romans in quoting the commandment, you shall not murder, or you shall not kill.

01:41:30

One says kill, one says murder, kill and murder are not the same thing. That's right. And yet the King James has both the same commandment in two different forms, but the underlying

01:41:40

Greek text, there's no variant. It's ooph on eusais, in both. The problem was one's in the

01:41:46

Gospels, that's one committee, the other's in Paul, that's another committee and they weren't working together.

01:41:51

And there wasn't an overarching committee that then brought them together and said, guys, we need to do this the same way.

01:41:58

Because they didn't have fax machines and stuff like that to be able to do that back then. And so without the ability to go back to those original languages, they're stuck with contradiction.

01:42:07

They're stuck with the same Greek term being translated multitudes of different ways in the New Testament, leading to these weird conclusions like, how dare you challenge us to debate?

01:42:17

Because that's sinful because it says in Romans 1 .29, and it's actually talking about creating divisions, which I think they're doing.

01:42:23

Right, right, right. Contentions and divisions, it sounds like what they're doing, not what we're doing. It just gives you an illustration of the problem here.

01:42:31

And then the other, the thing in Jude 5, why wouldn't you want to have greater confidence at all times as to what

01:42:38

Jude actually wrote? That's right. And that's what I was talking about. Your text, that, you know, okay, let's say

01:42:46

Stephanus here. Stephanus did a little more work past Erasmus, but you're still only talking about maybe at the max 18 manuscripts, at the most being drawn from by only two scholars.

01:43:03

Isn't it better to have thousands of scholars reviewing one another's works over decades, drawing from nearly 6 ,000 manuscripts?

01:43:12

Wouldn't that be a little bit better? And don't you believe God's preserved his word, so it's okay to do that? Exactly. Right. Exactly.

01:43:18

It seems to me that the fear is really on the other end. Are you fearful that you're going to, that God didn't preserve his word, that somehow you're going to discover that God somehow, it was a big mess of history.

01:43:27

Like, no, I have full confidence that he preserved his word. And that's why we can go to see, let's get the sharpest, clearest understanding of what did

01:43:33

Paul say? What did Jesus say? And I don't have to be fearful about the next manuscript discovery or anything along those lines at all.

01:43:39

But when you're stuck where they are, then all the notes at the bottom of the page in that one, and there are a lot, seem like a fundamental denial of any type of meaningful concept of preservation.

01:43:58

Right. When in reality, what those demonstrate is the depth and the wealth of the manuscript tradition that God did preserve over two centuries nearly.

01:44:13

Well, yeah, over two centuries of Roman persecution. And then over the centuries since then of Islamic expansion and all sorts of other things in the process, what

01:44:25

God has preserved for us, that's what it represents. So that we know that the original readings are there in the manuscript tradition, unlike the

01:44:36

Muslim who has an edited text, a revised text under Uthman, and hence can only take it back to that particular point in time.

01:44:46

These guys never have to take even their gospel into the world in any meaningful fashion.

01:44:54

Oh, they may go out and do street witnessing, but what they consider street witnessing is, we've seen the street screechers out in Mesa, yelling and screaming at people, but the idea of actually engaging them in a meaningful fashion that demonstrates a respect, understanding, it's just quoting

01:45:14

Bible verses. So they never actually have to engage them in the kind of meaningful study that would expose them to their own inconsistencies.

01:45:26

They're not going to do it by this kind of conversation. No. When they get together, they're just reinforcing each other and keeping the walls as strong as possible.

01:45:35

Let one of these guys start reading some books off the index.

01:45:41

They have their own index prohibitorium that Rome used to have. We don't read these books.

01:45:47

Well, almost anything by Spurgeon evidently needs to be in the index prohibitorium. So let any one of these guys, maybe because they end up encountering a real tough situation in their church, and they can't find the resources within their own narrow click, and they start looking around, and they start reading more and more, and their eyes start opening to what's there.

01:46:14

They will be turned upon so fast, it'll make their heads spin.

01:46:19

And I can't tell you how many people, especially since I wrote King James Only Controversy 24 years ago, almost 25 years ago, have contacted me and said, man, if I had had your book three or four years before I found it, what it could have saved me from going through, or the church splits, or I'm no longer in ministry because of what happened in this situation, that situation.

01:46:48

I just can't tell you how many people have contacted me and talked about that kind of thing. We want to help people to avoid all of that.

01:46:58

And so in barely two minutes, we're going to take a break.

01:47:04

And then at the top of the hour, we're going to have, Lord willing, please pray for the tech—we've not done this technically before, so there's a lot of pressure on the plaid -shirted guy, okay?

01:47:17

A lot of pressure on the plaid -shirted guy. And so why are we doing this?

01:47:24

Hopefully we've explained that with enough clarity over the past hour and 50 minutes.

01:47:30

It's not to defend ourselves or to promote ourselves. What we really want is people that are involved in these groups to recognize that there needs to be a way for you to examine your traditions.

01:47:49

And just because someone yells it louder from the pulpit doesn't mean it's actually a part of the

01:47:54

Word of God. And so hopefully even by opening the Word and showing you these things, look for yourself, listen carefully, pray for guidance to read the entire text of the

01:48:09

Scripture and to understand what is there. Don't be afraid to go outside the confines of your little group, because if what you have is truth, you shouldn't be afraid to look at those things.

01:48:22

I'm not saying just open yourself up to anything. We are Trinitarians. We believe in the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

01:48:28

We believe He's the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Listen to what is being said.

01:48:34

Look to what the Word of God has to say. And then listen over the next 70 minutes when we do the conversation.

01:48:41

See who handles the Word of God in a fair and honest way. That's what I'm going to try to do. And I think the contrast will be very, very interesting.

01:48:49

So with that, we're going to wrap up this. Thank you, Jeff, very, very much for being here.

01:48:55

There's so much more we could have looked at. As you can see, I didn't even start touching on most of the stuff we could have played.

01:49:02

And something tells me over the next two weeks... We'll probably get on it some more. No, over the next two weeks, there will be 47 more videos to go through without any question at all.