WWUTT 2170 Q&A Again on Women Pastors, Why is it a Sin, the SBC Law Amendment

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Women pastors. Is this really that big a deal? What's the sin in having a woman as a pastor anyway?

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What is the law amendment being voted on in the SBC? And what if your pastor is in favor of women pastors?

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The answers to these questions when we Understand the Text. This is

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When we Understand the Text, a daily Bible commentary in God's Word, to help encourage your time in the Word.

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Be sure to leave us a five -star review, which helps others to find our podcast. Here once again is your teacher,

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Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. How are you? I'm doing well. Looking fetching this evening.

00:43

Thank you. Just got done with my exercises. Oh, that's the glow. Yeah. That's the glistening that's going on.

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We'll go with that. I glitter, sparkle.

00:56

That's right. Well, whenever we record this, it's always in the evening for us.

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It is, yes. Almost always. Might be a Friday morning for you, or maybe you're catching this at some other point in the weekend.

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Yeah. This is the Friday edition of the program where we take questions from the listeners, and you can submit those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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Or leave us a voicemail. That's right. I don't have any voicemail this week. Yep, at the website.

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No voicemails this week, but you can always go to www .tt .com. There's the voicemail link right there at the top of the menu.

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Then follow the instructions. Record us something. Yeah. Right from your phone or from your computer, whatever device you use.

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It'll get to us. We'll even play your voicemail and respond to your question right here on the program. Now, although we don't have a voicemail this week, we do have a question about the website.

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Okay. So Jessica went to the website, not to leave a voicemail, but for another reason.

01:56

Sure. We'll get to that question in just a moment. All right. Cliffhanger. And we also have questions once again about women pastors.

02:05

Oh, okay. And women deacons. Okay. So this seems to be the topic du jour lately.

02:11

Well, it's kind of everywhere right now with the SBC, I'm sure. Yeah. Going through that.

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With the United Methodist. Oh, yeah, them too. Uh -huh. Going the way that they did, and now the

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Southern Baptist Convention is going to be voting on the law amendment coming up next month. We'll share that with you in a minute.

02:27

Oh, I thought that was going on now. Well, it's... Oh, you mean the convention? Yeah. Oh, no, no, no.

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I'm out of the loop. Yeah, no, no, no. It's still May. It's the last day of May. It is May. Yeah. It is.

02:39

Last day of May, but it's still May. We haven't gotten to the convention yet. All right, let's get to Psalm 18, first of all.

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Okay. So we're opening with the word, picking up where we left off last week, and I'm reading from the Legacy Standard Bible.

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Psalm 18, starting in verse 25. With the kind, you show yourself kind.

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With the blameless, you show yourself blameless. With the pure, you show yourself pure.

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And with the crooked, you show yourself astute. For you save an afflicted people, but eyes which are lifted up, you bring down.

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For you light my lamp. Yahweh, my God, illumines my darkness. For by you,

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I can run upon a troop, and by my God, I can leap over a wall.

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As for God, his way is blameless. The word of Yahweh is tried. He is a shield to all who take refuge in him.

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For who is God but Yahweh? And who is a rock except our

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God, the God who girds me with strength and makes my way blameless? He makes my feet like hind's feet and sets me upon my high places.

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He trains my hands for battle so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

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You have also given me the shield of your salvation, and your right hand upholds me, and your gentleness makes me great.

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You enlarge my steps under me, and my ankles have not given way. I'm feeling that one in my age.

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My ankles have not yet given way. Not yet given way. Not yet. I think

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I'm just going to stick with verses 25 to 29 this week. Okay. So then we'll get to 30 to 36, which was the second half of that.

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We'll look at that next week. So right here at verse 25, with the kind, you,

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Yahweh, show yourself kind. With the blameless, you show yourself blameless.

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So with those who are kind, we see God as kind. If those don't follow in the kindness that has been defined by God, what would they see

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God as? Angry. Yeah. Unkind. Mean. Not fair.

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Yeah. I deserve this, and God's not giving it to me might be their attitude toward God.

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Yeah. So we don't see God as generous and compassionate when we ourselves are not filled with those characteristics of God.

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Remember that the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5 is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness.

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So if we have the spirit of God, we would be demonstrating the kindness of God.

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And for those who don't have that kindness or are not themselves kind by the spirit of God within us, then we don't see

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God as kind. So with the kind, you show yourself kind. With the blameless, you show yourself blameless.

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How are we made blameless? By Jesus. Justified by faith in Christ. Yes. And we stand before God as innocent.

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That was what we talked about last week, being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. So now being justified, we stand before God blameless.

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Yeah. So with the blameless, you are blameless. If we have been justified, we look at God, we see him as holy.

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He is perfect. There is nothing that you can accuse him of. And this is kind of a parallelism here.

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So these two things go together. With the kind, you show yourself kind. With the blameless, you show yourself blameless.

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So those who are filled with the spirit of God are not going to look at God and think that he is guilty of anything. He has been kind to me, and he has dealt bountifully with me.

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Verse 26. With the pure, you show yourself pure.

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And with the crooked, oh, things change a little bit here. With the crooked, you show yourself astute.

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What would that mean? Why would it be that with the crooked, God shows himself astute?

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What does it mean to be astute? Are you the human dictionary? Do you got the definition of that word?

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I can look it up real fast. But astute usually means like smart or righteous.

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So you're able to discern a situation well. Yeah. And I would think in this case, it means

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God knows you're crooked. With the crooked, God shows himself astute.

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Like the crooked are going to recognize I can't hide myself from God. Even the most ardent atheist has got to admit.

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Yeah. If there truly is a God whom I refuse to acknowledge, as Romans 1 says, then he surely sees everything that I do and wherever it is that I am.

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Yeah. So I do have the definition up in front of me now. Okay. It says having or showing an ability to accurately assess situations or people and turn this to one's advantage.

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Turn this to one's advantage. So God is able to use the crooked even to his advantage.

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You show yourself astute. So the crooked are not going to get away with their ways.

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Right. God is ultimately going to fulfill his purposes, even through the crooked. Yeah. For you save an afflicted people, but eyes which are lifted up, you bring down.

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So that's a reference to the proud. Okay. Those who are proud, God humbles. For you light my lamp.

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Yahweh, my God, illumines my darkness. For by you,

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I can run upon a troop. And by my God, I can leap over a wall.

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You know, the ESV that I have in front of me is very, very different from what you're saying. Okay. It's hard to keep up.

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Like whenever I was a little late to getting it up on my phone in front of me, when you started reading, and I was like, oh, this isn't it.

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And I kept scrolling. And then I was like, wait, maybe that was it. And so I scrolled back.

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And yeah, sure enough, it was just because parts of this are like worded way differently.

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So verse 29, just look at verse 29. What does it say there? I'm reading from the legacy. Okay. So that one

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I'm pretty sure sounds pretty similar. For by you, I can run against a troop.

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Run against a troop. Okay. I said run upon a troop. And by my God, I can leap over a wall.

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So that one's the same. Well, this translation says, for by thee, I scatter a troop.

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And by thee, I scale walls. So what seems to be the understanding here is my enemies are not gonna be able to stand against me.

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Yeah, definitely. That's winning the war right there. Right, exactly. In God, I have strength.

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And we saw that earlier of I will be able to overcome my enemies. My enemies will not have their way with me.

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And so that seems to come back in in this section of the Psalm here. So understanding strength with God and by the kindness of God, we are delivered up.

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Our darkness is illuminated. We are able to see our path. We know the right way to go. That goes back into what we had read last week about your statutes were before me.

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And I kept your ways. And that goes along with that. So like we hear in Psalm 23, he guides me in paths of righteousness for his namesake.

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So God shows us the way that we are to go. According to his statutes, his rules, we know how we are to live.

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We know the way that is pleasing to God. In our case, we know how to be imitators of Christ because we do as the word says.

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And this is all for his namesake. It is all for his glory. But there is certainly reward, eternal reward for all of us who understand this and follow after Christ.

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Yeah, praise the Lord. And he shows himself kind and he shows himself pure in all things that we may likewise be kind and pursue those things that are true.

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All right, so there is our Psalm study for this week and we'll pick up next week in verse 30.

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All right. Getting to Jessica's question here, which I mentioned. She says, hello,

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Pastor Gabe. I was wondering if you could give me or guide me rather to an archive of your past podcast episodes.

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I'm in the Old Testament currently and wanting to listen to some of your teachings on certain books.

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When I click the podcast tab of your website, it says it's an archive by book of the

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Bible, exactly what I'm looking for. But only Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs is listed.

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Oh. My Apple podcast app doesn't go back far enough. It stops in 2020 and on the

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Podbean website, if I search by book, some episodes come up, but not all of them for that book. Is there somewhere to view the full archive that I'm missing or how can

11:54

I find these easier? Thank you for any help that you can provide and for all that you do. Well, Jessica, you stumbled upon a work in progress.

12:03

Yeah. I actually just added that link. I think it was this month.

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It was either this month or it was April. But I have to go through and enter in each episode number in order to find that episode of the podcast and then link it on my website.

12:23

That is a long process. None of the podcast apps that I use archive the podcast well and I don't understand this.

12:32

I don't know why this is so complicated. Yeah. It seems like nobody does archives well.

12:37

Well, I'm wondering if it's just because podcasts don't last that long normally. Yeah, and I've got over 2 ,000 and we've been doing this for coming up on nine years.

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Yeah. We're a little above average, I think. Yeah, a little. Just a smidge. So, yeah.

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I mean, stuff just doesn't archive well. Like, I think about this on Twitter slash X as well.

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I want to go back and find posts of mine from years ago. There's not a good archive for that. Yeah. Like, I can't just select

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May of 2020, you know? I know, right? Which is what I would want to do. I had a blog years ago where all the stuff was easily archived that way.

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You could just pick a calendar and then go back through and find the blog articles. Yeah. Seemed like a simple enough way to do it.

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But unfortunately, Podbean does not archive well even though it allows me to add hashtags and categories.

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It just doesn't post those things or separate those things out of the categories. So, what's the point of...

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Oh, that's weird. Yeah. What's the point of selecting those? And up until last year, I had an unlimited number of categories that I could create.

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But now they've limited it to 15. Oh. And so, if I've done teachings in 40 books of the

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Bible, I can't separate that out into 40 categories. Yeah. You probably have to do the different sections.

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Exactly. Right. I have Paul's epistles. Yeah. I have the prophets. I have the gospels, you know?

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But I can't separate them out all in it. Here's all my teachings on 1 Corinthians.

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Here's all 2 Corinthians. Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't allow me to do that anymore. So, Jessica, I'm building this page.

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Yes, unfortunately, I've only gotten as far as Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. I think there was 20 lessons in Ecclesiastes, 13 in Song of Songs.

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So, I'm getting there. I'm going through that process. I'll try to add some more books as time goes on.

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It's kind of like as I go throughout my day, I'll hit a free half hour or something, and I'm like, oh,

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I can add some things to my archive on my website. That's not really a priority, but I'm getting there.

14:40

Yeah. We'll get some of those things on there a little bit better. I'm glad you found that, though. You're the first person to send me an email and say that you've noticed that.

14:48

Yeah, and comment about it. Right. Yeah, that's awesome. So, I'll try to do a little bit better with that, and I appreciate your patience on it.

14:55

Thank you for listening. So, in the meantime, is there anywhere she can find it yet? Nope. Okay.

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Just wait on you. Now, if you do a Google search where you type in, like, W -W -U -T -T, and if she's looking for Isaiah, which

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I'm in Isaiah right now, just select that, and then I'm sure that some numbers will come up for the

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Isaiah podcast that I've done, and you'll notice that all of the Isaiah or all of the

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Old Testament podcasts end in a four or a nine. Okay. So, if you add the four -digit number, you kind of figure out where it's at, like, in Isaiah.

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Well, I know that if I go this many backwards or this many forwards that he's still going to be in Isaiah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, enter those numbers by a four or a nine just in a

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Google search, and those episodes will come up. Awesome. That's a little work,

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I know, but that is one way that you can bring them up. That's how I'm doing it. Yeah, right.

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To find them all so that I can link to it on the website. That sounds good. All right.

15:58

This next question comes from Laurel. Dear Pastor Gabe, greetings from Peoria, Illinois.

16:03

Peoria, Illinois. That one's hard to say. Yeah. I'm not even going to attempt it.

16:09

Piggybacking off of the questions that you responded to this past Friday on the podcast, can you elaborate on why it is so bad for a church to have a woman pastor?

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It seems the more and more mainstream this becomes, the more and more friends of mine seem to be okay with it.

16:29

Thank you for all that you do. Okay, well, this I did not do last week when we were talking about this.

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I did not actually go to 1 Corinthians, or sorry, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy. Timothy, I was going to say.

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Chapter two and read that. I think I quoted the passage, but then also going into chapter three where it gives the qualifications for a pastor or an overseer.

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Yeah. So, let's consider the whole section. This is 1 Timothy chapter two, and I'm going to start in verse eight here because we have instructions for men and women.

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Verse eight, therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath or dissension.

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Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, with modesty and self -restraint, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly clothing, but rather by means of good works as is proper for women professing godliness.

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A woman must learn quietness in all submission, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

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For it was Adam who was first formed and then Eve, and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into trespass, but she will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with self -restraint.

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And you were probably reading that from the ESV. Mm -hmm. I have this memorized in the ESV. I'm sure you do.

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But I was reading that, I was reading that from the legacy. So jumping back up to verse 11, a woman must learn in quietness in all submission.

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What's the next word at the beginning of verse 12? I? It's I. Right, that's what you have is

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I. I do. It doesn't say, but I do not allow. It doesn't say that? No, it just says I. Okay.

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I do have a little letter there. Right, where it might have a footnote underneath it?

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Yeah, I'm looking at the footnote right now. It says... It just probably gives you references. Yeah, it says 1

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Corinthians 14, 34. Right, well, that's the other passage that says that a woman is not supposed to teach

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Yeah. or have authority over a man, right. But if you read this in an essentially literal translation, which the

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ESV is, but for whatever reason, the ESV does not include the word but there. So there is a but.

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A woman must learn in quietness with all submission, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.

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Why is there a but? Why that contrasting word there?

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Yeah. So first of all, a woman must learn in quietness with all submission.

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That's an awesome statement. Because what Paul is saying there is women need to be in church.

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Yes. They need to be there with the men and they need to be there learning. Right. But as they learn, they do in quietness and in all submission.

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This in itself was counter -cultural because in the synagogue, women couldn't come and sit there in the places where the men sat.

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Right. They had to be on the outside. But here, this is men and women together, sitting together in church, learning under the words, singing songs together, lifting up their voices in prayer and in praise.

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This is an amazing picture that we have of men and women worshiping God. Yeah.

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A woman must learn in quietness and in all submission. And then the but means, but she must stay in this capacity, in other words.

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Yeah. She's not gonna stand up and teach. Right. She's there with the men learning, but it's not her role to teach.

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But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

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And you have the instruction on quietness in both verses. 11, she must learn in quietness.

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12, she must remain quiet. Now, there were instances where women were in some of these churches standing up and teaching.

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We know that was happening in Corinth, hence why Paul made the statement that he did in 1 Corinthians 14.

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And maybe it was going on here in Ephesus, or maybe there was, you know, maybe it's just something that's been going on.

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And so Paul is going ahead and directing Timothy in this to ensure that women are not leading the men in teaching, but they are remaining in the position of submission, still learning, but not having authority over men.

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And then Paul gives the reason, and he grounds it in creation. He says in verse 13, for it was

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Adam who was first formed and then Eve. And it was not

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Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into trespass.

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So we have two reasons why a man is supposed to be a pastor and a woman is not supposed to have this teaching authority.

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Number one, because Adam was formed first. Right. So we're going back to the -

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Exactly. We're going back to the creation story, Genesis one through three, even in the way that God has created the family and ordered the household, that even translates into the structure of the polity of the church.

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A man is supposed to have these leadership roles. It's not for a woman to position herself in leadership or authority positions over men.

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So this begins with the created order. Adam was made first. Eve was made from Adam to be his help meat.

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That doesn't mean that the woman is less than the man, especially when you consider that Eve was made from Adam's rib.

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Yeah. I like the way that Matthew Henry does this. She wasn't made from his arm so that Adam could show strength over her.

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She wasn't made from his legs so that he could stand over her or from his head that he could show himself smarter than her, but from his side so that they stand side by side in what they do.

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We talked about complementarianism last week. Yeah. So it's men and women by their strengths and weaknesses complementing one another.

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This is not in any way treating women as being less than men. Right. It's just that God has created those leadership roles for men.

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Yes. And a woman is supposed to be in submission to that, even when it comes to the structure of the church.

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Yes. A woman is not supposed to be asserting herself in those positions. So because Adam was formed first, then

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Eve, the second reason. Okay, go ahead. I wanted to say something. I'm just kind of rolling here. You are. Okay. Go, go, go.

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So about the submissiveness, it's important. It's very, very, very important because we are the example of how the church or the bride submits to Christ.

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Yes. And so we set that example. And that's out of Ephesians 5. So we have the picture of marriage that Paul gives to the church in Ephesus.

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Timothy is pastoring in Ephesus. Yes. So Paul says this to the church in Ephesus. Husbands, love your wives as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.

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So the husband is the picture of Christ, the way that Christ loves the church. Wives, be subject to your own husbands as to the

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Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is also the head of the church, he himself being the savior of the body.

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But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

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So she is a picture of submission. Yes. That's an important role. It's very important. That's an essential role.

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Yes. And women should not be looking at that going, oh, but I want that role. Yeah. You know,

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Paul rebuked this attitude with the Corinthians when they were looking at one another and going, oh, but I want that spiritual gift.

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Yeah. You have the gift that you have for the purpose of serving the church. The same is the case with your role.

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Glorifying Lord. Exactly. The same is the case with your role as either a man or a woman in the church.

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Rejoice that God made you that way and give joy to him that you have the position that you have.

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Yeah. If a woman starts to get grumpy about the fact that I can't be a pastor, really who she's blaming for that is

25:02

God. Yeah. Remember what we read out of Psalm 18. To the kind,

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God is kind. If you have the kindness of God, then you're going to see God is kind to you.

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But if you start thinking this isn't fair, I want that, then who is it that you really think is unfair in this situation?

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Yeah. You think God has treated you unfairly somehow. He didn't make a mistake when he made you, a man or a woman.

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So fulfill those roles that God has given to men or fulfill the role that he has given to women.

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And the role that you fulfill is necessary for the church. Yes. It is necessary to have women in the church that are showing that submission the way that the church, the whole church is to be in submission to Christ.

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Yes. Men, not all men are going to fill the role of pastor. Right. But even husbands demonstrate the way that Christ loves his church.

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Yes. And that role as a pastor is left just for a man to fulfill, a qualified man, which is what we have in chapter three, verses one through seven.

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So then going on here, we have the first reason, once again, that Adam was formed first and then

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Eve. The second reason is that it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into trespass.

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Yeah. So because Adam was formed first and the woman was deceived first, then a woman is not permitted from having that office or holding that position as a pastor or a teacher in the church.

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Now, some will say, well, this has to do with the fall and Christ undoes the effects of the fall.

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So isn't it that if he has undone the effects of the fall in Christians, then it's okay for a woman to be a pastor?

26:57

Well, no, because who are these instructions for? The church. Yeah. Among those. After Jesus.

27:03

Yeah, right. Where Christ is undoing the effects of the fall. Yeah. Just because the effects of the fall are being undone by Christ or the way that he says that I am making all things new, just because that's the truth doesn't mean that we therefore throw out this instruction because what's the first part of the instruction?

27:23

Adam was born first. Yeah, Adam was formed first and then Eve. That doesn't change. Well, not born.

27:29

Yeah, made. Created. I got what you're saying. Yeah, okay, good. So that's how it starts.

27:38

And that wasn't because of the fall. God intended from the beginning, Adam would be formed first,

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Eve would be his help meat. Yes. That's not a result of the fall. Right. But then because we still live in a fallen world, even though we as Christians are being made new, therefore a woman is not permitted to have that position.

27:59

It's still part of the curse that is upon her. Remember the curse that was given as God had proclaimed it to Eve that your desire will be contrary to your husband.

28:08

Yeah. And so this is Eve wanting to in the passion of her flesh, wanting to act contrary to the role that God has given to men and women and wanting to position herself in those places that have only been given to men to fill.

28:24

But no, because she was deceived first, then it is not permitted for her to fill this role.

28:30

It is given to a man. Now, that's not to say that women are more easily deceived than men.

28:37

Okay. But there are ways that women are deceived, that men are not as easily deceived to put it that way.

28:44

True. Fair enough. And so in those positions of leadership, where it requires someone strong, someone resilient, someone that has that bravado,

28:55

God has positioned men for that role. Yeah. I mean, God gave us extra hormones.

29:03

So ladies, I'll let you say that. I'm not stepping into that territory, but yeah.

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I'm just saying those are hard to control. Very hard to control.

29:15

And not just those extra hormones, but there's a certain time.

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That's what I'm talking about. Okay. That is what you're talking about. All right. Okay. And then there's also the time after, as you get older, and that comes a whole other rush of hormones, apparently, and all sorts of stuff.

29:39

Now, there are certainly ways that men are more easily deceived than women.

29:45

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like you think of how easy it is for men to be seduced by wily women, for example.

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That might be something that a man has to deal with on a level that a woman doesn't experience.

29:57

But then there are ways that she's deceived, that men are not deceived. Yeah. So regardless, for this role in particular,

30:05

God has positioned the man to fill it, and a woman is unqualified from it. She is not made for it, nor is she qualified for it.

30:13

Right. That's the way you understand that. So then verse 15, the last part of this, and she will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with self -restraint.

30:29

Now, verse 15, there's different interpretations on this, and I've written on this in different capacities, but she will be saved through the bearing of children.

30:39

It doesn't mean that a mother is now automatically saved because she has kids. Right. I mean, there's a caveat of if.

30:47

Yes, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification. Right. So a woman may not be continuing in faith and love and sanctification, may not have self -restraint just because she has children, doesn't mean that she's been saved.

31:00

There is also the interpretation of this, and I've written on this before, about how this is in reference to Christ, to the coming of Jesus.

31:08

This is something that a woman can be proud to have happened through Mary, which men will never be able to experience.

31:20

So Mary had the Christ child, so through the child bearing, in other words, talking about Christ specifically.

31:27

Okay, but then isn't they referring to the child bearing?

31:33

Now, once again, you're listening to... ESV. Yeah, you're reading the ESV. The ESV is worded different.

31:39

Okay, can you read it one more time then? The ESV doesn't... Yeah, the ESV doesn't include the definite article, which is the.

31:47

So, but she will be saved through the bearing of children, or more literally, she will be saved through the child bearing.

31:56

Children. Yes, the child bearing. It may not be bearing of children.

32:02

It may be the child bearing. It can be translated either way. Okay. The Greek word there is just, it can just simply be translated child bearing.

32:10

So even though my translation says the bearing of children, literally it's just child bearing.

32:15

Okay, so not indicating more than one. That might be. In the Greek. It might be.

32:22

Okay, because then it continues. If they continue, so who is they referring to?

32:29

The women. Oh, it is. If the women, those who have had children, continue in faith and love and sanctification with self -restraint.

32:37

Okay, I was thinking that they was referring to the children. No. That were bared.

32:43

No. Yeah, right. Born. That were born. Yeah, you know, one of those words.

32:50

No, it's in reference to those women who have born children. Okay. Okay. So the women. Yes, they continue in faith and love and sanctification.

32:58

Now, probably the easiest way to understand this is that women have a special role that men will never understand.

33:05

Not every man will be a pastor. Not every woman will be a mother. But men might have these particular leadership roles that women don't get to step into.

33:16

Women have this role as a mother that men won't get to step into. And even if a woman doesn't have children, even if maybe she's not blessed to be married or have children, she still has a mothering instinct that men don't have.

33:33

So there is still. There's something that God has given to women. There's something that God has given to men.

33:40

The distinction of the sexes. Men and women. It's right here, even with regard to their roles in the church.

33:46

Okay. I'm going to be a stickler about this because this is sticking out to me and I can't stop it.

33:52

Okay. So if it's really not that big of a deal, just tell me it's not that big of a deal and I'll get over it.

33:58

But I do have to point out this one thing. Okay. Okay. So verse 15 starts out with, yet she.

34:03

Okay. Singular. Right. And then if they, plural. Yes. Correct. Still women.

34:10

So that could mean. Here's the possibility here. Okay. I'm not a scholar. I'm not going to say this is absolutely the definition.

34:17

Okay. I'm just curious. This is what that means. She is Eve. Ah. But she will be saved through the childbearing.

34:27

Remember what I said about the childbearing. Uh -huh. That's in reference to Christ. Right. That's the fulfillment of the promise in Genesis 3 .15.

34:34

Okay. Where Jesus. Well, Jesus. God said to the serpent. Yes.

34:40

I will put enmity between her offspring and your offspring. Yes. He will bruise your head.

34:47

You will bruise his heel. Uh -huh. And that enmity between the offspring of the serpent and the offspring of the woman is, of course,

34:55

Christ. Uh -huh. So this would be Paul speaking in fulfillment of that. She, Eve, or the line of women.

35:01

Eve being the mother of all women. Okay. So women will be saved through the childbearing.

35:07

Okay. Or even through the bearing of children. Right. And then if they is all women that has, well, come after Eve.

35:17

And if they. All of us. They can include all women. Uh -huh. Whether it's the women who have born children or not.

35:25

Right. Correct. They continue in faith and love and sanctification with self -restraint. Okay.

35:30

Now it's making sense. All right. Okay. Now it's not begging me anymore. Thank you. You're welcome.

35:35

You're welcome. All right. Because that does make sense. That totally makes sense. So you understand then, going back to Laurel's question, you understand why this is such a big deal.

35:43

Because when you position a woman in that role as a pastor. Uh -huh.

35:49

You are going back to the first sin in the Garden of Eden. Oh, yeah. When in the curse that God gave to Adam and Eve, he told

35:56

Adam, because you have listened to the voice of your wife. Uh -huh. So Adam's disobedience was not leading in his family.

36:07

Yeah. Eve listened to the voice of the serpent. And then she deceived or seduced

36:15

Adam, giving him the fruit, and he ate it, listening to the voice of his wife.

36:20

Uh -huh. So when a woman is positioned in that place as a pastor, and she has the teaching authority over men, and she's telling men what to do and proclaiming the word of God in this particular capacity, we are repeating the sin that has happened in the

36:38

Garden of Eden. Uh -huh. She's in sin, and so is everyone in that church that's sitting under that.

36:44

Yeah. So that's why that's such a big deal. And that's why, going back to the problem that was asked about last week, this is why you will see this happen in a church first, where women get to be ordained as pastors.

36:57

And decades later, what does that church start accepting? Yeah. Every other sexual sin and perversion that has been embraced by our culture.

37:06

The whole LGBTQ acrostic is fair game, because we have ignored the distinct roles of men and women, the way that God created them, and the function of a man and a woman, and what

37:20

God has made them for. We've thrown all that out. We've torn up the created order as established at the very beginning, and we're doing it our own way.

37:29

Yeah. And so, therefore, if none of those sexual distinctions are important, then that church is going to end up embracing all manner of sexual immorality.

37:38

Uh -huh. Well, I mean, if you go back to the beginning and you try to rewrite it, that changes the whole story, doesn't it?

37:44

Yeah, right. And it could be that for a generation, or half a generation, or something like that, your church decides, we're going to start ordaining women pastors.

37:53

For 20 or 30 years, maybe, on a generous side of things, for 20 or 30 years, you might not think that there's really much of any problem at all.

38:04

The gospel's still being proclaimed. Sin is still being called out. We're still memorizing Scripture and growing in godliness and sanctification here.

38:11

What's the big deal? Uh -huh. It's as time goes on, you will start to see the problems emerge.

38:17

The next generation comes up, well, hey, women pastors, why not all this other stuff, too?

38:23

Yeah. That they start ignoring the distinctions of the sexes, until eventually, like I said, you're embracing sexual immorality.

38:30

Uh -huh. It takes some time. You may not see it within the first 10 or so years, but you give it a little bit of time, and worse and worse doctrines start creeping in.

38:40

This is never the only thing. It never stops here. It gets worse and worse as it goes on. And this is why this is such a big deal going on in the

38:47

Southern Baptist Convention right now, as well. Right on the heels of what just happened with the United Methodists now ordaining

38:55

LGBTQ clergy. That's what they decided upon this year. And now here are the

39:00

Southern Baptists, just a couple of months later, deciding whether or not women can be pastors. And if there are churches that make women pastors, are they still in friendly cooperation with the

39:10

Southern Baptist Convention? Yeah. This is a pretty big vote coming up with the law amendment that will be decided upon in Indianapolis.

39:18

All right. Anything else on that one? We didn't get to the qualifications of a pastor, but that doesn't really fit

39:24

Laurel's question anyway. We can get to that here in a moment. That's true. Maybe it'll fit with this next question.

39:31

I don't know. I think you've answered all my questions. All right. Sorry for hijacking that.

39:38

So this next one, greetings Gabe and babe. Oh man,

39:44

I totally skipped Evan's question. I thought that there was something in here. I felt like there was another question that was in here that I skipped.

39:51

So what does Evan say? But anyway, now I've gotten to Eric and Erica's question, and I got to do this one. I've already started it. Okay. Okay.

39:56

I've said greetings Gabe and babe. That's true. That's true. We're not exactly a Gabe and babe, but we are an

40:02

Eric and an Erica. That works? So I guess that counts for something. That's awesome. So here's our dilemma.

40:08

We attend a Baptist church that isn't technically Southern Baptist, but we do give to the

40:14

Southern Baptist convention, specifically the IMB, which is the international missions board. So, of course, we're all watching to see what's going to happen with the law amendment at the

40:23

Southern Baptist convention annual meeting next month. If it passes, then it is decided that any church with women pastors will be an unfriendly cooperation with the

40:32

SBC and will be removed from the fellowship. If it doesn't pass, what will happen exactly?

40:38

I, Eric, asked my pastor, if it doesn't pass, will that mean that the SBC now accepts churches into the fellowship with women as pastors?

40:47

And if that is the case, will our church pull funding from the SBC? First, he said, no, that would not mean that the

40:56

SBC is accepting of churches with women pastors because the SBC already doesn't accept churches with women pastors.

41:04

I think if the law amendment doesn't pass, that attitude is going to change. It will just come to light,

41:11

I think, because it's already like, oh, it's no big deal because they're not the main pastor or whatever.

41:19

It will be a big mess. It will. It will be very messy. Because here's what's going to happen.

41:25

Hang on. Let me read to you the law amendment so that everybody understands what we're talking about. I haven't even finished

41:31

Eric and Erica's question. No, you haven't. Sorry. So you can go to the website SBCAmendment .org.

41:38

Okay. And that's kind of like the main website for everything regarding the law amendment. Exactly what it is they're proposing, how it will change the constitution of the

41:47

Southern Baptist Convention, interviews with Mike Law, who is proposing the amendment and so forth. All of it is right there on the site.

41:53

Okay. Okay. So SBCAmendment .org. This is basically how it goes.

41:58

So it's an amendment to the constitution of the Southern Baptist Convention. Right. And that amendment will therefore make a certain article.

42:07

It's Article 3 of the Constitution, Article 3, Paragraph 1. It will amend it to say that any church that has women pastors would be in unfriendly cooperation with the

42:18

SBC. And for those who are younger than teenage years listening, it means to clarify, to give a more detailed...

42:30

To amend. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Right. And to amend means to clarify or to give more detail on what it means.

42:37

Okay. Thank you. My wife who teaches our children, so good. Sorry. So basically, reading straight from the website, the proposed amendment would clarify that the

42:48

SBC only cooperates with churches that do not affirm, appoint, or employ a woman as a pastor of any kind.

42:57

So not just the senior pastor, but even associate pastor. It would be added to the SBC Constitution under Article 3,

43:03

Paragraph 1 concerning composition. The underlined item below shows the additional amendment in its proposed context.

43:12

So basically, it adds a number 6 to Article 3 that says, affirms, appoints, or employs only men as any kind of pastor or elder as qualified by Scripture.

43:25

So for a church to be in friendly cooperation with the convention, it cannot have a pastor who is a woman serving in any function of a pastor of any kind.

43:36

Does that make sense? Yes. Did I say that right? I think so. Yeah. So that's what we're talking about concerning the law amendment.

43:44

Now, if you'll remember, last year in New Orleans, Becky and I were there, Saddleback Church, which was

43:50

Rick Warren's church, was disfellowshipped, and the margin was enormous.

43:56

It was something like, what, 85 % in favor of removing him. I don't even remember, but yeah, it was huge.

44:02

And 15 % in favor of retaining Saddleback Church.

44:08

And of course, the reason for this was because the two pastors that had been appointed in Rick Warren's place, who had stepped down, or he had stepped into an emeritus position, but it was a husband and wife duo.

44:19

So now you had, I mean, she wasn't just the associate pastor, she was even the senior pastor. It was a duo senior pastor team.

44:26

And she being a woman meant that Saddleback was in unfriendly cooperation with the

44:32

SBC. So at New Orleans, Saddleback was removed from the fellowship and the vote was overwhelming.

44:39

If the law amendment doesn't pass, then essentially the Southern Baptist Convention is sending the message that a church with a woman as a pastor is not in unfriendly cooperation with the

44:50

SBC. Right. And so what's going to happen with those churches that have been removed? Saddleback wasn't the only one.

44:56

There were others last year that were removed as well. So what's going to happen with them? Are they now going to say, well, hang on.

45:02

We were removed because we were in unfriendly cooperation. But now you're saying that a church can have a woman pastor.

45:10

So why were, that whole thing was pointless. Why were we eliminated in the first place?

45:16

And like I said, this is going to, it's going to be a big mess. It is. If the law amendment doesn't pass.

45:22

So the Baptist Faith and Message 2000.

45:27

Right. Our Statement of Faith. Yes. Well, the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith. Southern Baptist State. Yeah. Okay.

45:33

You've got it all. It's not coming out of my mouth. All right. So that states that men are to be pastors.

45:41

Yes. But it does not state that women are not to be pastors. Am I right?

45:48

It is clarifying that only men can be pastors. And what we had amended the

45:56

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 to say last year at New Orleans, we even clarified that it's not just pastor, but elder, overseer, bishop.

46:05

So all of those titles. All of those. Yeah. Right. Fall under the same understanding of what a pastor is.

46:12

And as Al Mohler has said, the office is the function and the function is the office. Right.

46:18

So it's not just explaining the office of pastor. It's also the function of pastor. Anyway, this was just.

46:24

Well, I just wanted to point that out, that it doesn't say that women can, but everybody's going to take that as, you're not taking this extra step against, so you are therefore for it.

46:37

Well, okay. So the thing with cooperation in the Southern Baptist Convention, you actually don't have to agree with everything in the

46:44

Baptist Faith and Message 2000. Okay. To be part of the Southern Baptist Convention. Okay. So the law amendment is saying there is this qualification.

46:53

Like we're still. Everybody has to be that one. Yeah. The SBC would still be allowing for people to disagree with some aspect of the

47:00

Baptist Faith and Message 2000. Okay. But you can't have a woman pastor. Ah.

47:06

For even our constitution declares that you can't have a woman pastor. If you do, then you're going to be an unfriendly cooperation with the

47:13

SBC. Okay. So that's why the amendment is so important. Yes. I'm using we and our generally, because as I said before, we can go to the

47:22

Southern Baptist Convention and vote. Yes. But we don't really present ourselves as a Southern Baptist Church. Right.

47:28

And by the way, we're not attending this year. Yeah, we won't be there. Right. Won't be there in Indianapolis, unfortunately.

47:35

Too much stuff going on. House hasn't sold yet. Right. You're going to be gone. I will.

47:42

Becky and Annie, our oldest daughter, are going to be traveling, so we wouldn't even be able to go anyway. Yeah. I've got to keep the kids while all of that is happening.

47:49

Yep. So anyway, that's the law amendment. I guess we haven't finished Eric and Erica's question here.

47:55

Okay. Continue. So of course, all eyes are on what is going to happen with the law amendment. And I asked my pastor, where did

48:02

I leave off here? If the law amendment doesn't pass, will our church pull funding from the

48:10

SBC? First he said, no, that would not mean that the SBC is accepting of churches with women pastors, because the

48:17

SBC already doesn't accept churches with women pastors. That was where we broke. Went to the law amendment explanation.

48:23

But then he said something I really did not expect. He said that he really wouldn't mind if the

48:32

SBC did accept churches with women pastors. And he would not mind if our church was accepting of women pastors.

48:42

Oh, wow. He wasn't going to push for it, he said. But if that's the church's decision, he would not see that as a reason to have to break fellowship with one another.

48:53

Brother and sister, what do I do about this? Oh, wow. I had no idea that my pastor felt this way.

49:00

Do I tell the other elders? Do I talk to other members of the congregation about this?

49:06

I don't want to gossip or disrespect my pastor, but this seems like I'm in a tornado watch or something.

49:11

No tornado has been cited, but the ingredients are there for something bad to happen. Oh, man.

49:17

Thanks for listening and for your show, Eric and Erica. Oklahoma, of course. I was going to say, you know what that means.

49:26

They have some tornado experience. Oh, yeah, especially recently. Oh, my goodness. Oh, yes.

49:32

That is the truth. Okay, so how do you handle this? Well, I would, first of all, go back to your pastor and ask for clarification.

49:39

Definitely. Like to what extent did he mean the things that he said? Before you start thinking, like did you exhaust the subject?

49:50

In other words, and you know, you know what kind of conversation you had with him. Right. I don't know how in -depth that conversation was when he revealed that.

49:56

Or if it was just in passing. Yeah, right. I mean, was he just kind of musing? Was he saying it as, I don't know.

50:02

I mean, maybe I wouldn't think it would be that big a deal or something like that. Yeah. Maybe that's how he worded it.

50:08

Maybe he himself in the moment wasn't thinking through what he was saying. I mean, whatever that might happen to be.

50:14

Right. So first sit down with your pastor again and get some clarification on what he said.

50:20

Right. And you did mention elders. Yeah. Do I tell the other elders? So you have other elders there. Talk to your pastor first though.

50:27

Definitely. And then maybe in like casual conversation with one of the other elders, ask what their thoughts are regarding the law amendment or what's happening in the

50:37

SBC. Oh, that's good. Don't bring up your pastor. Don't say, hey, did you know what the pastor said about this? Right.

50:43

Don't go into that. Just get a feel for what do all the elders believe about this? Yeah. Where do they stand?

50:48

What's their position regarding these things? And then if maybe through their answers, you start to see, okay, there is an issue here.

50:58

Yeah. And then maybe you have to talk about that with the elders. Maybe you want to say as a couple,

51:04

Eric and Erica, we want to have the chance to talk with you guys about something that's concerning to us. Maybe they would give you the opportunity to address all the elders.

51:11

Yeah. We as elders do that. The eldership that I was a part of at Injunction City, if somebody wanted to request an audience with the elders, we'd sit there and listen to your concern, all of us together at one of our elders meetings or our elders here at Providence in Casa Grande, same thing.

51:29

You want to talk to the elders? Yeah. Open door policy. You can sit down and talk with us about anything you want.

51:34

We're more than willing to answer your questions. So you may have that kind of opportunity with your elders to be able to present the same.

51:41

I wouldn't take it to members of the congregation. Yeah. You're not there. Maybe you can talk about what people's thoughts are regarding the law amendment.

51:50

You're certainly not crossing any lines by doing that. Right. What do you think about this? Have you been following what's been going on at the

51:56

Southern Baptist Convention? What do you think if the law amendment gets voted down, should we stay?

52:03

Should we continue to fund the SPC? And you can stir the dirt a little and find out what's there. Yeah, right.

52:08

What bones are underneath. These are just talks. It's just conversation. You're not really betraying anybody's trust or anything like that.

52:14

Right. By talking in this way. Don't start talking about the pastor. Well, you know what the pastor thinks.

52:19

Yeah. You know what he told me. Don't go there. Work all these things out in the right way. Now, if you kind of find a mix of opinions, here's one idea.

52:31

Maybe you could convince your pastor. Why don't we do a study through 1st and 2nd Timothy? Oh, that's good.

52:37

Yeah. When was the last time that we as a church went through those books together? Maybe that would be a good thing for us and that we all understand, like the instructions given in 1st

52:47

Timothy 3 .15, I am writing these things to you so that if I delay in coming to you, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, the church of the living

52:58

God, which is a pillar and a buttress of the truth. So this letter, the purpose of 1st

53:03

Timothy is to give instructions on how you're supposed to behave and how the church is supposed to function.

53:10

And so that's a good thing for the church to go through together and that we all get on the same page about the things that we do together as a church.

53:18

And part of that process might involve, hey, what does our constitution say? You might have

53:23

Sunday school classes on that or membership classes or things like that. And everybody comes to an understanding, here's exactly what our polity is.

53:30

Here's what we as a church do and here's how we handle things. If this issue or this subject comes up, when you're an expository church and you're going word for word, verse by verse through the

53:42

Bible, you're going to have to confront certain subjects that you may not think of bringing up otherwise.

53:48

And those pastoral epistles are really good for raising exactly these kinds of issues.

53:56

You're going to get to 1 Timothy 2 just like we just went through and have to wrestle with, here's why a woman can't be a pastor or a teacher, but men need to understand their roles and step up and lead.

54:09

Going back up to verse eight, I want the men in every place to pray.

54:15

So they are setting a standard and they are setting an example for the rest of the congregation that prayers, requests, thanksgivings, supplications be made for all people.

54:26

And it's the men that are leading that example. Yeah. Lifting holy hands without wrath and dissension.

54:32

So certainly in this disagreement, you don't want to be causing wrath and dissension in your church. Right. You want to go about this in a right and proper way.

54:39

And I get the impression that that's the way you feel about your church. Right, yeah. So I appreciate your question and hope that was helpful.

54:48

Yeah, hopefully that gets at least the ball rolling in the right direction. Right. And then you have step three.

54:55

Step three? What did I say was step three? No, like the next step that they would take after that. Oh, I don't know.

55:01

Because they've already done step one of talking, you know. And then the next thing they do is talk again. Yeah, right.

55:07

And then next, you might need to talk again. Well, doing the first Timothy study, if maybe that would be -

55:14

Yeah, that would be great. Something your church could do together, which is what we're doing right now. So if you've heard the sermons that I'm doing on Sundays, presently in second

55:22

Timothy, and when we finish that, we'll go to Titus. This coming fall, we're going to Romans. Yay!

55:28

So that's our trajectory as a church for my preaching schedule right now. All right, we're at an hour already.

55:35

The question on deacons, I teased this at the beginning. Yes. And this is the question that I overlooked.

55:40

I knew I was skipping one. I just scrolled too far down. Okay. But this question from Evan is about women deacons.

55:47

Oh, okay. So we'll save that question for next week. Okay. So come back next week, same bat time, same bat channel.

55:56

And if you want to submit a voicemail, you can send that to, well, okay.

56:02

So email is when we understand the text at gmail .com. Voicemail is going to www .utt .com

56:09

and click on the voicemail link right there on the top of the page. Follow the instructions, leave us a voicemail and we'll play you and answer you right here on the broadcast.

56:20

A quick reminder that the conference, Christian Responsibility in an

56:26

Un -Christian World, is going to be August 8th through 10th in Vail, Arizona.

56:32

Vail Valley Baptist Church, as a matter of fact, is the website. And you can find out more information about this specific conference by going to vailvalleybaptistchurch .org.

56:41

It's got the, what do you call that? The barcode, the QR code. Oh yeah, uh -huh. You can scan that with your phone.

56:47

Little square thing. Yeah, it'll give you more details there. But it's right there on the front page of the church. If you go to vailvalleybaptistchurch .org,

56:53

it gives you all the information. Speakers include Andrew Rappaport, Kevin Hay, John Sampson, Dominique Grimaldi, who's a friend of mine,

57:01

Jay Miller, who's the pastor of the church down there, Aaron Brewster, Dan Kreft. Some great speakers, if you're in the area,

57:09

Southern Arizona in particular, might be one that you'll want to put on your calendar. So August 8th through 10th in Vail, Arizona.

57:16

And then the Building Tomorrow's Church conference is gonna be in Gilbert, Arizona. So the other direction from us.

57:22

The one in Vail is south of us. Yes. Building Tomorrow's Church is north of us. And that's just this next week,

57:29

June 6th through the 8th. And you can find more information about the conference by going to buildingtomorrowschurch .com.

57:36

And that's all I got. Yeah. Anything else I need to add? God bless.

57:43

Let's close with prayer. Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for a great day.

57:49

As the weather is getting warmer, we are enjoying the summer heat, certainly here in Southern Arizona, but everybody's feeling it a little bit warmer everywhere.

57:58

And a wonder to look at creation and see the beautiful things that you have made for us, that you have made us for, that we might give glory to you in all things.

58:09

And I pray that we would have an attitude that rejoices in the places where you've put us and the roles that you have given to us.

58:18

We are not grumpy and complaining about not getting the opportunity that that other person has, which is coveting.

58:25

We're getting greedy in that case. We're looking at what somebody else has and then wishing that we had that or we would do better with that than they are doing.

58:32

And we are, in a sense, saying to you that you messed up. And may that not be our attitude.

58:38

We recognize that you have put us where we are for a reason. You have given us the gifts that you have given to us that we might bless the church, that we might be a blessing to one another.

58:48

May we recognize your kindness to us, the kindness you have shown us in your son, Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins and rose again from the dead, so that all who believe in him, our sins are forgiven, and we have everlasting life with God.

59:04

That should be the starting point for the joy that we have every single day and doing everything that is before us with joy in the

59:13

Father, who loves us and provides for us all things. May we spread the message of the gospel with others that they may come to faith as well and be saved from the judgment that is to come.