Trans-Dispensationalism / What About the Poor Innocent Native in the Jungle? (Tony Evans Steps Down)

Hello, and thank you for listening to the

Testing the Spirits podcast. In this episode, we're going to be talking about transdispensationalism.

This is a doctrine taught by Tony Evans. In some ways, it was created by Tony Evans, and it teaches that people can get to heaven without having to believe in Jesus.

So the title of this episode is Transdispensationalism, and if that sounds made up, as far as we can tell,

Tony Evans actually made up this term, but it's actually similar to another doctrine that I'll make reference to it in a moment, some of the other guys who have taught this.

Basically, you don't need the gospel, you don't need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. It's really a type of universalism or a quasi form of universalism.

So with all the talk about Tony Evans in the news right now, I thought this would be a good time to discuss this.

Tony Evans has stepped down from pastoral ministry due to a sin issue.

That's what Tony Evans said. So I'm recording this podcast June 11th.

As of now, we don't know what that sin issue is. Apparently, it was something from years ago, and Tony Evans supporters are already coming on my other video and commenting like, okay, here we go.

People are gossiping and speculating about what the sin was, and they say it's nobody's business.

Well, I think it is his church's business to some extent, but yeah, it's true. Some people are speculating.

People are saying all sorts of things, but let me say for the record, I have not done that.

I have not speculated, and this channel, my YouTube channel, is not about gossip or conjecture, and I'm not interested in digging into someone's personal life.

This channel is about doctrine, and we have the right, matter of fact, I as a pastor certainly have the responsibility of addressing doctrinal issues.

So Tony Evans made these statements publicly, I'm going to respond publicly. So this is not an attack against Tony Evans or something like that.

It's testing his teaching over and against the word of God, and this is probably the best time to do it since everyone is now talking about Tony Evans.

So people are going to look into his teachings. So with that said, what is this new strange doctrine known as transdispensationalism?

Well, it's a made up term unique to Tony Evans, although people have believed this type of thing before.

I'll play the clip in a moment where he's talking about it, as well as John MacArthur and his response to it.

If you saw my other video, you heard that clip already, but for the sake of context in this podcast,

I'm going to repeat it. So the whole idea of transdispensationalism is that there are all these people in the world today, you know, living out in remote parts of the earth.

They've never heard about Jesus, they've never heard the gospel. So if they die without hearing the gospel, you know, would

God, would a good God really send them to hell? Well, this is some ways, in some ways, this is the classic argument.

What about that poor, innocent native in the jungle, right? This is something you've probably heard before.

People ask the poor, innocent native in the jungle. They never got a chance to believe in Jesus. So because they never heard, certainly

God wouldn't judge them because they never had a chance. Right? Well, Dr.

R .C. Sproul, in dealing with this question, you know, what about the poor, innocent native in the jungle?

R .C. Sproul said, there is no such thing as a poor, innocent native because nobody, whether they're living in the jungle or anywhere else, nobody is innocent.

All have sinned and have come short of the glory of God. So whether someone lives in the jungle, has heard about Jesus or not, everybody is a sinner and everybody is in need of salvation.

So the churches, you know, historic, Protestant, Evangelical, even Roman Catholicism, I mean,

Christianity throughout the ages has held to the position that the heathen, unbelievers, are lost and they need salvation.

That's why we send out missionaries. Tony Evans' position, I mean, if the heathen can be saved without the gospel,

I mean, modern missions. I mean, missionaries in general, the whole Great Commission is pointless. Here's what the

Apostle Paul said in Romans 10, how then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed?

And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach unless they are sent? So then, Paul concludes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the

Word of God. So we let God be the judge. Yes, God is the judge, but the belief, this is the biblical teaching, the belief is, the

Bible teaches that the heathen, unbelievers, people all over the world, they need Jesus.

They need to hear the gospel. But the problem with Tony Evans, I mean, he comes to a slightly different conclusion.

It's more than just slight. It's a massively different conclusion he comes to.

Tony Evans is claiming that the heathen, many of them are not actually lost.

If they just do the best they can with the light that they have, they will be saved and they'll be with us in heaven because God will trans -dispensationalize them.

So God will judge them as though they lived in a different dispensation, as if they were an

Old Testament believer. Because the argument is, well, the people in the Old Testament didn't know the name of Jesus.

So if they never heard, it'll be like they were living in Old Testament time. So God will judge them out of a different dispensation.

I understand the logic, but there's several problems with it. And I'm going to explain that.

The short of it is that the heathen, here's the thing, the people in the Old Testament who were saved, they knew the

Lord. They had some special revelation, like Abraham didn't know about Jesus and he didn't know about the cross and the resurrection, but he knew the

Lord. He knew the promises of God. The person in the jungle, unless they get a direct revelation from God, they wouldn't know that.

So it's just not the same thing. You can't really compare them to Old Testament believers.

I had said in my other video that this teaching of trans -dispensationalism is very similar to what

Billy Graham told Robert Shuler on the Hour of Power program. I did a video on this. You probably have seen it, but if you haven't, check out my channel.

Just search Billy Graham, Robert Shuler on my channel and it'll come up. Those listening on Spotify, go to YouTube and check that out.

But that's what Billy Graham said. That seems to be what Tony Evans says, that there are all these people out there who have never heard the gospel, but you know, they do the best they can.

If they turn to the only light that they have, even if they never hear about Jesus, they are still saved and they will be with us in heaven.

Well, again, if that's true, missionary work is absolutely pointless. More importantly, statements that Jesus made are not true.

Jesus said in John 14, verse six, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes unto the father except through me.

I mean, Jesus, this was his whole teaching. You must believe in me.

Luke recorded the words of Peter in Acts 4 .12, when he said, there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

So nearly all Christians for 1900 years, the first 1900 years of the church, everyone understood this.

The heathen need the gospel. But now since liberalism has crept into the church in the modern 20th century, now apparently the heathen can be saved without hearing about the gospel.

Amazing. Well, let's listen to what Tony Evans has to say. And in this clip, we'll hear the pushback that this is considered heresy by many.

Evans, however, says, I don't care. He said, I'm right and they're wrong. And then John MacArthur will respond.

And then I'll come back at the end and I'll give a scriptural argument of what Tony Evans defenders are saying.

They're saying Romans two proves his point. And then I'll respond with some more scripture.

But listen to what Tony Evans has to say. I'm painting a scenario where a person wants to know the truth station because dispensations are based on information given so that all throughout the

Bible, all people had to do was believe what God had revealed that they were saved. If a person believes

God, somebody's up there that created this, somebody created me. I don't know who he is, but I want to know it. If that person were to have a heart attack at that moment,

God could not condemn him and be just because God says he will seek your heart. So since God makes that promise, if God doesn't give him the gospel or give him a direct revelation, then he has to judge him out of another dispensation.

Now, I would imagine you've got people coming at you from every direction with guns blazing. I'm right there wrong.

So you graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. Right. I can only imagine that there are people there who would almost call this heresy.

Probably. But I don't care. But you do know that they would call this heresy. And I'm... You know that.

Yes. I did make reference to the phrase transdispensationalism, almost sort of throwing it away.

At the same time, I know it provoked some discussion and thought. It is a term that, to my knowledge, has only been used by one person.

And that person is Tony Evans in a book entitled Totally Saved. That book came out,

I think, in the year 2002. It was published by Moody Press.

It is a book that endeavors to give a very, very simple and basic understanding of salvation.

At the end of the book, there is a chapter in which the question comes up about people who have never heard the gospel.

And in that section, Tony writes that people who never hear the gospel, if they will accept whatever light they have,

God will acknowledge that as sufficient for their salvation. That in itself is a...

I mean, that is a departure from historic Christian gospel. Okay.

Now, to those people who will gripe and complain about John MacArthur, they'll say, what makes

John MacArthur the authority? Well, first of all, John MacArthur is the only well -known pastor that I'm aware of who has addressed this issue.

So if other pastors would speak up, we would turn to them as well. But hardly any have.

Second, John MacArthur, it's not that he's the authority, but the Bible is the authority. Tony Evans is really making an argument based on his own reasoning and logic.

His own failed logic, I think. John MacArthur is... He usually sticks to the

Bible. So it's the Bible that's our authority. But here's what one of Tony Evans' followers said.

They left a comment on one of my other videos. And they said, Romans 2, verses 12 through 16 proves

Tony Evans right. So let's read it. Romans 2, 12 through 16 says, For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law.

Notice that. They perish. And as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

For when Gentiles who do not have the law by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness in between themselves, their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.

In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Okay, so that's Romans 2. And the first thing I'd point out, does this, let me just ask you, does that passage say that the heathen are actually saved without Jesus?

Because they're following God's law? No, that's not what Paul is saying at all. You have to read that into the text.

Paul says they're not following the law. I mean, that's his whole point. If you take Romans 2 in context, the first three chapters of Romans, the whole purpose that, or the whole argument

Paul is setting forth, is that all have fallen short. All are under sin. Jew, Gentile, they're all lost, dead in trespasses and sin.

That's Paul's point. In chapter one, Paul, in Romans, acknowledges that the heathen understand that there is a

God, and then they worship idols. In chapter two, yes, God's law is written on their hearts, but what does that mean?

It means the guy in the jungle, the person who's never heard the Ten Commandments, they still know that murder is wrong.

They still know that stealing is wrong. Paul, by no means, is saying that, hey, these guys are really keeping the commandments, and they're saved because they're keeping the commandments.

That's not what Paul is saying at all. And all of this is building up to Romans 3, 28, where Paul says, therefore, we conclude, here's his final conclusion, that a man is justified by faith, apart from the deeds of the law.

Faith in what? He goes on to explain it. Faith in the gospel. And then again,

Paul, in chapter 10, he says, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So for salvation to occur, a person must hear

God's word, and that together with the work of the Holy Spirit, that is what brings about salvation.

So this is how a person is saved. They must acknowledge their sin, turn to the

Lord, ask God for forgiveness based on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is the message. This is the gospel that the church has been preaching and proclaiming and sending out missionaries so they can teach this and proclaim this to the uttermost parts of the earth.

The church has been doing this since the first century, but once people start believing in this trans -dispensational thing, all of that becomes pointless.

Missionary work is no longer necessary because the heathen can be saved without hearing about Jesus.

That's the short of it. Now let me just close by saying this because someone will want to ask me point blank.

They'll say, Pastor, are you saying that people who have never heard about Jesus are going to hell? Are you really saying that?

Are you saying that people who never had a chance are going to be held accountable for rejecting what they never even heard?

Well, listen, here's what Jesus said. Here's what I know for sure. Jesus said this in John 3, 7.

He said, you must be born again. And then in John 3, 16 through 18,

Jesus said, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What do you have to do? You have to believe in the son of God. Why? Because God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

He who believes in him, in Christ, is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.

Those are the words of the Lord. He's condemned already because he has not believed in the only begotten son of God.

So here's what I would say. People who don't believe in Jesus, according to Christ himself, they're already lost.

When people stand before God, God, don't worry about it. God will be completely just.

The judge of all the earth will do what is right. But here's what I'm not going to do.

Yeah, I'm not going to play God, and I'm not going to say this person's saved and this person isn't. This guy is saved, but this woman is going to hell.

I'm not going to play God, but one thing I will not do, I will not say that people are saved without Jesus.

I'm just not willing to say that people who've never heard the gospel, well, I think they're going to be saved anyways.

I mean, that's, to say that's an error is to be kind.

I agree. I agree with these other people who call it heresy. I think it is heresy. So in conclusion, this is what

Tony Evans has taught. He's been admonished, rebuked. He's not listening. He says,

I'm right and they're wrong. I don't care what people say. And for Tony Evans to teach this, shame on him, shame on him.

So I pray that Tony Evans would repent of this teaching. So let's pray to that end.

And finally, if you're in a church that teaches this or believes this or compromises the gospel, you need to get out of there and get into a good local

Bible believing church that does not compromise. There is only one way to God.

And that is through the person and work of Jesus Christ. I'll close with what

Jesus said in Matthew 7, 13 through 14. He said, enter by the narrow gate for wide as the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction.

And there are many who go in by it because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way that leads to life.

And there are few who find it. Thanks for listening. And until next time, may the Lord be with you.