Christian Reasons With Atheist

Stop snatching children from their actual mom's arms.

So kill them, kill them, or let the parent keep them?

Yes, yes.

Kill them or keep them?

Okay, okay.

And so we want to give them an option.

One of the most common arguments we hear is, I can't afford it, or, you know, how am I going to pay for this?

And so what we do is we come alongside of them, not just for nine months, not just for that baby, but for the entire life of the

child, as long as they'll have us.

And we support them.

We pay for their rent.

We'll get them a car.

We bring them food.

We work with another organization that's just getting ready to start up called Mercy Moms.

They're all women.

They take great care of these moms that we're helping.

We saved a lot of babies last year.

And so, yeah, we're not out here to protest or judge or condemn anybody.

I will ask you a question.

Yes, ma 'am.

I'm very open to hearing.

Yes, ma 'am.

I've never been pregnant.

I'm on birth control.

I got it from here.

So that's my priors.

I don't think I'm right to be a mother.

It's just not for me.

What do you think you're getting by calling women murderers?

I think that's a very emotionally charged thing.

I think it's a hard choice.

I don't think it's easy.

My mom's pregnancy with me was unplanned.

It really derailed her.

She was religious, so she opted to do nothing.

But I think, honestly, she didn't have a lot of other options, if I'm going to be honest, in her community.

Sure.

So, yeah, do you think that this could really be, I don't know, just somewhat

poking the bear and just getting people like me to hate that kind of language?

I would agree with you.

What we do, though, is, like your mother, we're evangelical Christians.

We believe in the Word of God.

We believe in the Bible.

Well, she was Mormon, so you might think she's in hell now.

So, you know.

I hope not.

I think it's a little bit of a warrior.

I hope not.

And I'm not the judge of anybody.

I do know that if she put her faith in Jesus Christ and believed that he lived a perfect life and died the death that she

deserved, then I believe your mom...

Well, she died a horrible death of cancer.

Yeah, Jesus died a horrible death on the cross, and he was innocent.

That's true.

You know what I mean?

We're all guilty sinners.

Myself, probably among the chief of them, like Paul would say.

But what I would say to answer your question...

As someone who's non -religious, it's always interesting to see you.

I believe everybody's a little bit religious.

I do a lot of financial counseling, and I tell people, I can show you your God if you show me your checkbook.

Right?

It might be going out to eat.

It might be entertainment.

It might be...

Show me a hero, and I'll write you a track record.

There you go.

That's a good thing.

But to answer your question specifically...

Yes, I guess that would just be my feedback from the other side, as I think.

I'm with you that society doesn't support...

But even if we take God out of it, and I have a hard time doing that, because you know my presupposition.

I'm a Christian.

But even if we take him out of it, we have science and biology that says, life begins at conception.

Right?

So, I'm curious.

Are you against birth control?

I think that's the best choice for me.

I'm not going to be a virgin the rest of my life.

I am against all birth control that is abortifacia.

And what that means is once conception has happened, and once all the DNA is present, once all the chromosomes are present,

if that birth control is designed to take that life, yes, I am against that.

You know, it's always odd to me.

Sure.

All this story strong about gay sex.

I just don't think that there's any really great...

I just don't think Jesus himself really cared that much.

So, it's something my alma mater, I went down to BYU.

They have very strict standards.

In Matthew 7 or 28 where he said that a man and a woman, you know, let them join together and become one flesh.

You know, that's pretty strong when he defined marriage between a man and a woman.

But also that would kind of imply things like being sexually promiscuous outside marriage.

Absolutely.

It's a sin.

Yep.

I don't think so.

I think it's fine.

So, I will never see eye to eye with you on that.

Probably not, but taking the Lord's name in vain.

One lie, the book of Revelation says that all liars will have their place in the lake of fire.

So, I told my son who's standing right there that Santa Claus was real for like eight years.

I'm a liar, right?

But on dang Santa Claus, I should have been getting the credit anyway.

Those were my toys.

My mom was very...

But I'm just saying, that's how holy God is.

Your mom never told you that?

Did I hear you correctly?

I did not claim that.

I said she had no principles around Santa.

I got you.

It's a little weird to throw my dead cancer mom under the bus.

I'm so sorry.

And I sympathize with you.

Like I said, it's a very personal topic to me as a woman, as someone who did see her mom.

Struggle.

A lot of emotion.

I think she had really severe postpartum depression.

I think it wasn't talked about at the time.

I don't know.

She never said, but I know she wasn't functioning.

Well, back then, my mom and your mom, probably around the same generation, they just dealt with stuff.

You know what I mean?

You couldn't get it out on Facebook.

They did.

They were a tough generation.

They were.

Especially her mother, who always worked and lived in this very conservative society.

If you take anything from this, just know that Jesus Christ, honestly, I know you can laugh,

but he did come to save sinners.

And the simplest lie, being angry at my spouse,

or talking quarrelsomely, or gossiping, these are all minor things because we like

to judge ourselves according to the next person or our neighbor.

It just takes my advice, I think, calling people murderers is just not my video.

See the lady over there with the babies are murdered here sign?

She has had three abortions.

I would encourage you to talk to her and ask her what she would follow.

She wishes that there were people out there holding that sign.

We're hoping we'll get that one day, yes.

Women are really targeted and judged, I think, by conservative Christians in a way that I don't feel

like men.

I don't think general society is as liberalized.

It agrees with me, let's be honest.

My views are considered more mainstream.

200 years ago, you could own a black person, and society said that's okay.

And in Nazi Germany, you could kill a Jew, and society said that's okay.

So taking society's temperature and using it as morality, when we have the Word of God as our

standard that is unchanging, that's what I would say, is question that, you know, society...

Well, Christians owned slaves.

They did.

And participated in the Holocaust, some of them.

So I just find it very odd to think that Christians have any moral authority over someone like me.

We don't, we don't.

Then why should I listen to you?

The Word of God does.

It truly just doesn't, like, compute to me.

I know good Mormons, I know piece -of -shit Mormons, I know good Christians, I know piece -of -shit Christians.

I know good atheists, I know piece -of -shit atheists.

And so how do you judge that standard?

By what standard do you say good and bad?

By their fruits you shall know them, right?

So by the Word of God.

I don't believe it, I can quote it.

It's literature.

But see, you're using good and bad and evil, and you're using these words, and these words have meanings, they have definitions.

Yeah, I'm not a moral relativist.

I'm just saying that we do live in a country that I

think the founders were very inspired to separate religion from the state.

By putting everyone into one state religion, like Europe, they saw that that caused a lot of problems.

I'm glad you understand that distinction.

That it was a state religion that we separated, not necessarily...

From religion altogether, no.

That actually the... Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists...

There are constitutional protections for atheists like me, and Roe v. Wade is the law of the land.

Our primary right is to life, right?

That's our primary right in the Constitution, to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the 14th Amendment.

If my mom had pursued abortion, I wouldn't be here to regret it.

I don't think I was some soul hanging out in the pre -mortal realm.

No, we don't either.

We're not Mormons.

We don't believe that you had a spirit body that you inherited.

And this is the thing that...

I'm obviously a little more sympathetic to the Mormon vision because I was raised with it.

Me too.

It's what people I love.

30 years.

Alright, there you go.

So what is your standard if you're not a moral relativist?

Like, how do you look at what we're doing is wrong, that's right, this is good, that's bad...

I don't think protest is wrong.

I think calling women who opt for abortion murderers is ill -advised.

I didn't say it's going to get you what you want.

I didn't say it's good or bad.

But we're just using the legal definition.

If women want to get an ouch up and keep the baby, I don't know, raise my taxes.

I'll help them that way.

I just don't really feel any warmth or

strong feelings one way or another towards other people's babies.

It's not my life.

Let me try this.

The baby in the womb and the child, the poet, or any of these babies out here, the difference between them is

their size, their level of development, their environment, and their degree of dependency.

And so it's not fair to just say, okay, you're a smaller human and I get to kill you because you're a smaller human.

They are human beings.

That is what happens at conception.

And we're just trying to protect all life, not just some life.

We don't want to put a value on a life because of its size or its environment, its level of dependency, its degree

of dependency.

And then you go into gray areas because life's complicated.

It's not black and white.

Many, many women my age and older who are established in life, they've had trouble

conceiving because they just get pregnant in their mid -30s, then they're baby embryophiles, whatever

terminology you want to use.

I think it's all kind of sixes.

But they get pregnant.

And then there's a problem.

There is a genetic problem.

There's something that if this mother carries a birth deterrent, it really, really could

put her at risk.

If she has other children, then they'd be motherless.

I just think this very black or white thinking ends up really taking the human beings and the

families out of it.

I just don't think it's my business.

I think it's between the doctor, the mother, the father, who's in the picture, and they need to make the choice

that's right for them.

I'm not going in.

Here's a counterexample, something that's kind of socializing the risks.

Everyone takes the risks, and no one's trying to save human life.

Our life expectancy is two years shorter because of the air quality.

That's killing people.

You could say that's murder if you're dead earlier.

It's not malice of forethought.

Air quality is not the same as taking a human life with malice of forethought.

I think if I took a gun and killed one of these little kids, versus if I'm having this really

complicated decision of this unplanned pregnancy, the only way you could enforce

this is extremely Poland or Hungary or

Argentina, far right.

I would consider fascist, but at least government control.

In a pluralistic society where we have people like Jews, Hindus, atheists, Mormons, we don't

see things the same.

Just because you have disproportional power as evangelical Christians does not mean that it's the

norm, the way it might have been in, like, Jesus Smith's time.

So universally, why do we all agree it's not okay to rape a woman if we don't see things the same?

Apparently, given the Me Too movement, not everyone does agree with that.

They say different situations, like if both parties are intoxicated.

Some people consider that rape, some don't.

So when would it be okay to harm a child?

Under what circumstance, on what country, under what religion?

Apparently, if you're a copper mine and you are spewing toxins, it's not

malice of forethought.

So those kids with asthma, fuck them.

And it's okay for them to do it, though?

Sure, I guess, by your morality.

No, not by mine.

I think it's natural.

You're not out there protesting.

I think it's just something that clearly is emotionally

really intense for you because of your viewpoint.

But if you stepped away, if you woke up one day and you're like, I don't really think Jesus is the Messiah

and the King of Kings.

I think it's a nice story, but not literal.

Well, if he wasn't, we couldn't even make sense of this conversation.

We're assuming truth.

We're assuming logic.

I don't think that's true.

You're acting like I have a mental deficiency.

No, I'm not.

I'm saying that you are an image bearer of God and that this conversation would make no sense because you're using logic

and you're appealing to standards of truth, universality in nature.

I'm actually not appealing to universal standards.

I'm saying it's more useful in my mind if you actually want to reduce the rate of abortions.

It seems to me since the majority of people don't share Mormon or evangelical views

on sexual restriction.

So you wouldn't agree that truth is universal.

Would you agree logic is universal?

Not everyone's well versed in it, but I think appealing to logos is more

persuasive than this or that God.

Because look at ancient Roman times.

They believed in their gods too.

Christians came along.

They thought the ancient Romans, that is, believed that the Christians were the heretics.

Clearly these things evolve.

They thought that the story of Jesus on the cross and

say if you're Catholic, the transubstantiation, early pagans thought that that was really morally disgusting.

They didn't think it was just misinformed.

They thought it was disgusting.

They're like, what is this?

You aren't part of our society.

You aren't part of what makes us good people.

And I think we can look.

Again, it seems kind of silly to me to say.

He knows way more about church history than I do, so I'll let you answer that way.

Like Nero and Marcus Aurelius, oh, it's all the same because they're both pagans.

It just doesn't make any sense to me to not say that we can make distinctions.

Yeah, in kind of a pluralistic society.

But yeah, I just, again, I don't really care, frankly, if the abortion rate is low or

high.

I just don't.

Again, I don't see it as my business.

Do you believe ultimate truth exists?

No.

No?

Is that true?

No.

I think I'm going to die and my consciousness will be gone and people will come up with anything.

You said you weren't a moral relativist, but you just said there's no absolutes.

So you are a relativist?

Everything is relative?

I think that's a bad faith reading.

I believe what I believe because of evidence.

I think if I were born in a different place, I think if I were Paul and had, you know, a

hallucination, maybe that I'd something.

Would you accept false evidence?

Probably.

People do all the time.

Like, I think you are assuming, I have a much, intelligent people actually question their own

biases and priors.

They should, yeah.

I agree with that.

It's proven, right?

Yeah, they're presuppositions, actually.

Yeah, yeah.

So, it's just.

But what do you appeal to for these views?

What do you appeal to?

They're like huge thinkers.

Voltaire.

Yeah, these kind of people.

Where did they get any truth that they possess?

From engaging with texts and each other and arguing and seeing what made sense based on.

So where did those texts and all those things come from?

This is like a real difference, and I don't think it's worth like throwing me and being like, that's dumb.

Like, it's just different.

It's not, it doesn't make you dumb.

It just makes me a different person in terms of how I move through the world.

The Enlightenment says that we can use tools like science and observation

to gradually increase truth.

But we have to be open to it changing.

Like the early days of coronavirus.

You know, people weren't sure how it spread.

Now we have more information.

I think it's very silly.

Let me ask you this.

Oh my God.

So there's just no like concrete evidence that I can go and

see, you know, this like very literal Jesus who died for my sins.

Like I can't, I can't see that.

I can't like experience that.

Because science must be observable.

Yeah.

Must be repeatable.

So I think that that is a much more.

So how do you get that from a random universe?

I think random.

How do you get the law of science?

Random is like way too, they're using it as a negative word.

Is it an ordered universe or is it chaos, matter in motion?

I just don't think that like there had to be a creator to kick it all into being.

Then you can't do science.

But if you were a deist, just you know, like many of the founders were, like you would basically

live your life as if God is not involved in your daily lives.

How do you do science in a chaotic universe that has no ultimate creator holding it all

together?

How do you, how do you boil water?

To me that question hardly makes sense.

Yeah, you boil water by increasing the heat and pressure until water boils.

But how do you know it's going to always boil at 110 degrees?

Water still boils.

That's just like.

But not in a random universe.

It might boil at 90 degrees tomorrow and 85 the next day.

How do you know you're not just going to float up into the air?

Gravity.

That gravity is going to remain.

The law of gravity will persist.

God doesn't have to create that.

Like to me it's just so silly.

Like it's just, to me it's mind games.

I think you're playing semantics to try to be like oh.

I think assuming logic and denying truth is semantics.

You assume, you assume logic is universal but you deny truth.

If I grant your point that there's no.

I don't believe in quote unquote souls.

Right?

So if anything that is a somewhat stronger argument that like there is no

bright line.

There's social conventions.

In early America it was quickening.

So probably when the baby was active as the

science based.

Evangelicals didn't invent this.

Scientists did.

The NICUs as those improved the viability of the source.

So sure.

Let's grant the point.

There's no like.

There's no bright line.

Right?

There's no like oh.

A magic soul appeared.

From my point of view.

If you want to then say okay.

I'm going to like grant that this fetus embryo.

That's not real.

That's Latin for baby.

Sure.

Has the human DNA.

Then if you want to decrease abortions.

Women who are educated.

Women who know.

You know.

Proper sex ed and cues terms.

It doesn't have to be shrouded in mystery.

And women who have choices.

Are the ones who are less likely to seek it out.

But I don't think you'll ever get the rate to zero.

And once again.

You have a very like fascist state.

That is taking it all nuance.

And you know.

I don't know.

If you want to call some.

You know.

30 something married couple.

Baby killers.

Because they opted.

To make the hard choice.

To have the mother of their children live.

Versus a non viable.

Why would it be a hard choice if it's not a baby?

What's so hard about killing a clump of cells?

I think.

Frankly.

People.

Put weight on their pregnancy.

Based on.

It's because they're made in the image of God.

And they know what they're doing is wrong.

I don't think necessarily.

It would not be a hard choice for me to take off this mole.

I could do that tomorrow.

I will be honest.

If for some reason my birth control failed.

And I had sex.

And I got an act up.

I don't think it would be a hard choice for me.

I don't want a child.

I don't want to be a mother.

Well it's clear you've hardened your heart against God's word.

Yeah.

You know.

That's true.

That you were raised in a Mormon home.

And you experienced falsehood through that.

But you obviously were given some shred of morality through that.

That's like really patronizing.

I hope you.

It'd be interesting if you could hear yourself in like.

The shred of morality.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I don't mean to be.

I don't mean to.

He doesn't mean it that way.

My grandmother.

Honestly, sometimes you're actually coming off that way a bit yourself.

And you're making.

What he means is you're making a lot of good points.

Okay.

You're making a lot of good points about morality.

About, you know, things.

But you're being inconsistent.

I think you know that there is a God.

Because the Bible says so.

Yeah.

You know that there is a God.

Can I stop you?

Yeah.

Saying that to someone who truly, truly is an atheist. Is just as offensive as me.

I don't know.

Like going and stripping nude in a church or something.

Like just have some basic respect for other people's viewpoints.

Right?

I'm not going to go to church.

I'm not going to pray to Jesus.

I care for you too much.

I care for you too much.

You don't know me.

I don't believe in this woo -woo love.

Love to me is like actual actions of people you actually know.

And I'm never going to see you guys again.

So you would never.

If you ever saw someone destitute.

You would never lift a hand to help them.

I would literally be the Pharisee walking onto my door.

And be like, I'm too busy.

I acknowledge that.

Well that's clear what your world view has done for you then.

Yeah.

You're callous and angry and full of.

I'm angry.

I am very angry.

I like my life.

I am angry that there are women who are, in my view, exploited.

Exploited by men with power who I think have used religion

historically.

To get away with a lot that I think is quite.

You know, if you take one Christian example and perhaps you think this is.

They turn around again, get the license plate.

I think they try to run them over.

The Roman church.

Yeah, huge sex scandal.

In terms of priests and other ecclesiastical leaders raping children.

What's wrong with raping children?

What?

Yeah, what's wrong with rape?

In an atheistic world view.

Where there is no good, there is no evil.

There is no God.

What's wrong with taking somebody's dignity?

About how someone can have moral foundations without God.

Good without God.

Even Dawkins has said it doesn't matter.

It's just cells and when we're bombarding.

He says there is no good, there is no evil.

There is just blind, pitiless indifference in an atheistic world.

Yeah, and I think these so -called new atheists are.

Against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

Who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth about God.

You really need to get the last word down.

For what can be known about God is plain to them.

Because God has made it plain to them.

So what do you think you're getting out of this?

I don't know.

We've held babies.

We have seen women helped to the point where like you said.

We've gotten them into apartments, cars.

They have never said, I wish I would have gone through with it.

I don't care, but again.

Often it's lower class women.

Oh, you're saying our discussion with you.

I'm going to be honest.

You're saying our discussion with you.

What is our hope for that?

This is the Mormon in me.

If you have sex and you don't think about the possible consequences.

Yes, yes.

You said lower class citizens.

You guys are unwelcome in this neighborhood.

You should fuck off.

You should be saying that to them.

They kill children.

They do not kill children.

Like I said to these idiots.

I never had an abortion because of a grandparent who provided contraceptives to me.

You know how this started?

With eugenics.

Margaret Sanger.

They wanted to exterminate the African American people.

They put this place into low income housing.

This is a decision you'll never make.

They've even admitted to it.

They've admitted to their racist beginnings.

That's the foundation of this.

That's really nice to say to a kid.

You're very classy, ma 'am.

I'm trying to not raise my voice.

We have every right to stand here and be our freedom of speech.

It's not just your side.

I do agree with that.

That is 100 % right.

Your shoes are adored.

Thank you.

I agree.

And so does my Mormon sister who only has a shred of morality.

Even though she's literally the sweetest person I know.

Actually shares much.

It's very interesting to me that people who, again, they seem to not grasp that I am

living in a different mindset.

That if they woke up, they would make the same choices.

I do, I think.

But for the grace of God, we were you.

I was a Mormon for 30 years.

I was an adulterer at heart.

I was a liar.

I was a thief.

Were you married and cheating on your wife?

In my heart, absolutely.

That's a really weird...

If I got married, I would...

Okay, here.

If I got married, again, what makes adultery wrong is that it can hurt other people.

You feel betrayed.

People that get so hung up on.

Oh, my goodness.

I was aroused.

That's human nature.

Abortion hurts babies, though.

Based off of that argument, children feel pain in the womb.

They recoil from syringes in the womb.

They feel the pain.

So you just said adultery hurts.

Someone who has done all she reasonably can to not have it.

So I just think that saying, you know...

Like, I think of a friend of mine who really did want to be a mother, but I'm going to be honest.

She has chronic mental health issues.

She is a barely functioning person mentally.

So, again, what makes it a hard choice?

I mean, a hard choice for her to seek an abortion is that she was in the middle of what I would call a full -blown nervous breakdown.

She was not going to be...

She has substance abuse issues.

She has addiction issues.

We have a thing called adoption for women.

I sympathize with her.

I cannot say enough.

If you had just taken away me from my mom, who is dead.

Like, I just...

It literally is too upsetting to me to think about.

I loved my mom.

Stop snatching children from their actual mom's arms.

So kill them?

Kill them or let the parent keep them?

Yes.

Kill them or keep them?

Okay.

Okay.

Ma 'am, we love you.

We care for you.

We know...

Turn...

Me and brother Brian just literally spoke with a woman who, at the very end of it,

it just seemed like we...

Brian hit a nerve.

And let's just restate exactly what happened.

She did not weep.

She did not shred a tear for any child that's been murdered, 60 million plus since Roe v. Wade.

But what did she shed a tear for?

She shed a tear that a child may be adopted and their life saved

compared to a child being brutally murdered in the womb.

That's what she cries for.

Is the adoption the possible separation from a birth mother instead of the

murder that's taking place here?

It's just so...

It's completely absurd.

Yeah.

It's one of the first times I think I've ever heard somebody get that triggered when I brought up adoption.

At the time, she was talking about a woman with substance abuse problems who may or may not be able to take

care of that child.

And I said, well, we would offer them the option of adoption.

And that was enough to just send her right over the edge.

I am.

I'm blown away out of all her calmness, which she was

slowly losing, of course.

There is where she lost it.

Considering that she would have rather been aborted by her mother, she said, instead of

adopted out and alive today.

That's a first.

That's the atheistic worldview in full motion, my friends.

I mean, you know, it's just what I'm reminded is,

like Paul says, it's not crafty arguments.

It's not persuasive speech.

It's not wisdom of the world.

That woman truly needs the gospel of Jesus Christ and for it to penetrate her dead

heart.

I mean, there's just nothing else.

And before we're quick to judge her, we always got to remind ourselves, but for the grace of God, that's us.

And so we just got to bring the truth, stand on the word of God, and preach the gospel at all times, including

to ourselves.

We're not better than them.

We need the grace of Christ as much as they do.

But until God awakens that dead person, but God are two of the most

beautiful words in Scripture.

Until that happens, then they're going to go on in their blindness and in their hardness of heart.

And so pray for her and pray that, you know, we may be planted and watered a little bit,

but God will bring the increase in people's lives.

We just have to keep preaching the truth in love.

Amen.

That's right, brother.

That sort of worldview will only leave you with a brokenness, with an emptiness,

something that only Christ can fix and fulfill.

So pray for that young woman with us, guys.

Thanks for watching.

Thank you.