Islamic Studies Ph.D

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good afternoon evening, welcome to the dividing line on a

Thursday afternoon the first dividing line of 2008 actually we were gonna do something on the first but then we didn't do anything on the first and I Imagine I'm noticing there's a number of people in the chat channel at the moment and things like that.

Everyone's waiting for the big announcements Well, we do have a big announcement today Just not the big announcement that we expected to have

Basically to make a long story short, I don't think anybody who is Familiar with the work that we've done over the past number of years

Has too much difficulty figuring out that the big announcement has something to do with an upcoming major event and That it probably has to do with announcing the identity of someone

That would be involved with something like a major debate or something like that and it might be maybe associated with certain other enjoyable things to do, but obviously

The main person that we sort of need to have around to make the big announcement is

Is not even on dry land at the moment Evidently when we decided to move things from the first to the tenth

We got our wires crossed and didn't realize he wasn't be around be here anyway

So that didn't work and this is is so big that it all the T's have to be crossed all the eyes have to be dotted

Before we pull the trigger, so I'm not going to give you a specific date. I mean Lord willing

We should have that information for you very quickly Lord willing next week, but I'm not going to commit myself to that because I can't determine other people's traveling schedules and availabilities and Various other things that need to get done to be able to do this right, so I apologize

I I was out of town as most of you know for the past week Got back

Let's see today is Thursday. I got back Tuesday late Tuesday night and So I Really was out of the loop as to what was going on and didn't really know until yesterday that we probably weren't going to be

Doing the big announcement today, so but at the same time and Somewhat related as you will see once all the pieces come together.

I do want to especially talk to Those of you who listen regularly those of you especially who have supported

Alpha Omega Ministries over the years and who believe that what we do in doing debates and in doing the the research and the writing and the books and the outreach and all the rest that stuff that that is important and that it's something you want to continue seeing taking taking place and And So in essence

I I sort of do have a big announcement. That's in some ways bigger than the big big announcement in the long term scheme of things

I Don't believe that there is any particular point in time there wasn't a particular

Event or something along those lines that started this it wasn't 9 -1 -1

But for quite some time those of you who've been listening know that we have been

I have been moving more and more into the area of studying

Islam when I first debated Hamza Abdul Malik, I Had not studied

Islam to any any great degree. I was defending the deity of Christ but even after 9 -11

While that got everybody's interest going and and things like that it still wasn't really a passionate thing and So, I don't know exactly what it was

I think over time Listening Especially starting to prepare for the

Shabir Ali debate at Biola in 2006 and that really obviously began back in 2005

I really Started to realize that the Islamic area was was a very very important area.

I didn't see a lot of well -known Reformed people stepping up and really making an issue of this individuals who can speak with clarity and can communicate to a wide audience and it's not there aren't people aren't doing great work, but Just in the circles and with which

I'm familiar and I looked at what is needed to provide the best kind of response to Islam a person who is familiar with issues of church history textual criticism, especially because of the constant attack upon the validity of the

New Testament text in comparison to the Quran and Systematic theology a knowledge of the

Trinity the deity of Christ crucifixion resurrection atonement issues And obviously you're hearing me describing me at that point and I I recognized that Especially as I was listening to Shabir Ali and to other

Islamic apologists at the same time. I you cannot study

Islam without being drawn into a study of and a recognition of and a increasing

Increasing awareness of our Persecuted brothers and sisters in Muslim lands now,

I realize it's not just the Muslims who persecute Christians communists do it and Hindus do it but the large portion of persecution of Christians today in all forms whether it's just the the dhimmi status that is

Found in many lands where you can't repair your churches. You can't proselytize you Can't do all sorts of things like that or whether it's the active

Kind of imprisonment and beatings and intimidation and attacks and The separation of families from one from another imprisonment and even executions and death that that kind of of an issue is is

Very sad to recognize but you cannot help but Think about your your brothers and sisters, especially when one particular religious group is responsible for that kind of activity and So putting all that together

My heart was being turned more and more toward really Emphasizing that area not to the not at the expense of abandoning everything else that that I do in any way shape or form my my

Passion for reformed theology is still the same as it's ever been and in fact

I think one of the problems is is you don't have a lot of reformed apologetic to Islam you have people that are afraid to defend the the great doctrines of grace is in that context and I'm not saying well

I think we've done everything we knew it need to do with Roman Catholicism or Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or anything else, but I have done a lot of work in those areas and a lot of materials in print and we've done debates and things like that and and if opportunities come up to continue to do that, that's great, but as I began

Seeing where the where the Lord was leading here the conclusion I've come to is that what I really want to be able to provide is an entire body of God honoring sound biblical apologetic material

That will long Outlast me when I'm moldering in the grave and and my memory is

Fading fading away from the earth. I want to make sure That I have left something behind For the next generations that will be lasting that will have a great deal of benefit to those who would who would have access to it and Especially as I was thinking about our persecuted brothers and sisters, what can

I do for them directly? It's not like I'm Rambo or something and I can go off into these nations and free them or something

I want to be able to help them now and in the decades to come and so these were some of the desires that I had at that at that point in time and So when the debate with Shabir Ali took place in 2006 at Biola University There was someone there who actually had come fully expecting to see me get whipped

He didn't know who I was was not familiar with my work but Was very pleasantly surprised to see it.

That was not what took place and and after the debate contacted me and introduced me to a group that is specifically

Intent upon helping people to gain expertise in area of Islam through providing them with Funding to do a

PhD work in the field of Islamic studies and at that time I was given an invitation to become a part of this group and To engage in a

PhD in Islamic studies and most of you have probably been able to figure out that over the past year or so I Have been

Studying Arabic. Obviously, that's the first step everyone in this group That's sort of a prerequisite to be able to Engage in Islamic studies is to be able to learn

Arabic to read the Quran and things like that And so over this past year starting in actually

September just actually a number of months ago. I began That particular study and we'll continue that through this semester

Even I'll actually be teaching for the Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary this semester on Islam I'm very much looking forward to that, but I have been studying

Arabic and we'll continue that that study and then this this fall as things are progressing that's when

The real the real program begins as far as actually laying out the work that needs to be done working toward writing a dissertation that right now is in broad outline, obviously my desire is to address the issue of the early

Transmission of the text of New Testament versus the early transmission of the text of the Quran I think that of all the various subjects that I've discussed with the people in the know

That would allow me to do what what I do best what I enjoy doing best That subject would allow me to address such a wide variety of issues and and Believers in other lands know that the validity of the

New Testament is constantly being attacked and and just today we had a Muslim in channel who was arguing that The you know, the

Quran has never been changed and he simply would not even allow for the opportunity

Let's see even the possibility of even of even being shown documentation of textual variation in early manuscripts of the

Quran it just wasn't even a possibility I was thinking and so that's a a the area that I wish to work toward is addressing that Specific area of a comparison.

There's such a vast difference Some of you have heard me speaking recently when as I've been traveling I have addressed this subject a number of times

The vast difference of the context between the transmission of the text of New Testament in the

Roman Empire under persecution Written by numerous authors from different places at different times in comparison to a single work one author one place controlled by a powerful religio -economic political organization and That might provide you with a very stable text in general to the

Quran But it also has all sorts of problems And the fact the matter is if there had ever been a

Christian Uthman then we would have a very difficult time defending the veracity of the

New Testament text, but Those are those are some of the issues that I wish to be addressing obviously then accepting this this honor and seeking to engage a entire

PhD in Islamic studies is Not going to be an easy thing to do and keep up with everything else beginning this year.

I am Undertaking one quarter of the preaching duties at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church Any of you who have a blog?

know that keeping a blog active and fresh in the sense of not just repeating the same old things, but Being interactive and doing the research and goes and into that Obviously the debating schedule that I have

I'll be debating Now that Ahmed I'll be debating Steve Gregg. I'll be debating big announcement

And There's a church in Santa Fe seeking to arrange Roman Catholic debate in September I'm traveling all over the place.

I know that's a in August of oh nine. I'm supposed to be in Australia I want to try to arrange a debate with some of the

Australian Islamic apologists down there while I'm there Etc. Etc. Etc.

I mean It is not like I do not have plenty of invitations to be coming in and speaking and they're excellent opportunities

I mean, I was so excited on Tuesday of this week to be over in Los Angeles and Sunday morning as I mentioned on the blog.

I had the opportunity of speaking to the faith builders class at Grace Community Church, dr.

John MacArthur's Church in Sun Valley and had a great time with the folks there and then on Monday teleconferenced over to Pune India and spoke to the brethren there on the sufficiency of scripture and the the

Quran actually came up in the midst of that and sort of enjoyed that and In the interaction that we had with people that are literally on the other side of the planet

They're actually I think was it 11 and it was like it was like 11 1⁄2 or 12 1⁄2 or 13 1⁄2 hours off Yes, I said half an hour.

They actually split a time zone there as it was really weird, but I Thought it was sort of a

Saturday Night Live joke or something, but it wasn't there literally they split the time zone So it's half an hour difference. But anyway,

I had a great time with them and then Tuesday I I met with Phil Johnson at grace to you and we went into the recording studio where dr

MacArthur does all his recording and we spent over an hour just talking in there recording this for future use and the main thing was the subject of Islam and There's just so much that needs to be said about it and people just they don't know where to turn they hear a lot of things in the media and So it was a real honor to have an opportunity to do that And it looks like there might be more opportunity for that a little bit down the road as well

So here's all these opportunities. It's not like I'm bored it's it is not like I don't have anything else to be doing and obviously throwing a

PhD Program on top of all this is I'll admit it's scary

It's it's scary for the a number of reasons, but I think you know, maybe this is just faithlessness on my part but the the primary reason it's scary other than just all the the work that needs to be done and and all the studying and getting the resources is really what has to do for Alvin Omega because I'll be honest with you.

There are people Listening right now to this this this broadcast

Who would much rather that I spend all my time kicking Dave Hunt around? That's all they want me to do.

They are they are excited and Actually will give as long as I'm kicking

Dave Hunt around and or maybe playing some Calvary Chapel pastor guy someplace and demonstrating that the fact matter is vast or the people who take up the sword against Calvinism have the clue what in the world they're talking about and that's all true and I think that it's appropriate to respond to Dave Hunt.

I was just looking at one of his videos on YouTube in fact and Just shaking my head at the stuff that he was saying it was it was part of his what love is this series and went back a few years and so I don't think there's anything wrong at all in responding to that kind of stuff and and I I intend to continue to do that as time allows

But that's that's not really the the whole thing that we're supposed to be doing in this ministry.

We How much of that's going to be lasting, you know 50 years after I'm gone and and So we want to be consistent.

We want to do what's appropriate before God and and so I realize there are people

That just don't think that's uh, you know, they just Americans especially this isn't the case in the

UK anymore Especially after 7 -7 but Americans especially See Islam as something that's far far far away.

It's something I see on TV. It is something that I I see on on my news feeds and and things like that and and I just It's hard to get people

Excited about the subject of Islam despite the fact that the things that we're talking about We talk about Islam are the very things that we talk about normally here anyway,

I mean outside the issues of Calvinism and if you read Colin Smith's fine articles on the

Islamic concept of Qatar Predestination things like that, you know that even that has some application some connection there.

But what are we talking about? We're talking about the Trinity. We're talking about the deity of Christ. I'm at the person the Holy Spirit We're talking about the crucifixion.

We're talking about the Atonement. We're talking about who Jesus is. We're talking about the New Testament We're talking about the inspiration scripture in the narrancy of scripture

Those are all the issues that we've been dealing with for a long long long long time and they're the same issues we're dealing with here just in a different con context and yet still

I I Think I'm getting better at it now, but I still have to use all of the skills the

Lord has given me as a speaker to get people to stick with me and to communicate to them what really needs to be understood about Islam and the threat that Islam presents and and the fact that Though we don't know what the future holds the fact is we have brothers and sisters this day

Who are facing these objections on the Muslim Street? in Syria and Iraq and Iran and Egypt and Saudi Arabia and all these places and These are the types of arguments are being presented to them

And I know that some of the folks in the chat channel today when the Muslim apologist was in we're just blown away

I mean it is frustrating when you when you point out the same thing You know about the fifth sixth seventh time the person and they just they don't hear you

You know he goes back to this guy He went back to quoting the Gospel of Barnabas and we've proved to him the

Gospel of Barnabas is bogus It was written around 1570. It's it's it's absolutely worthless, but after having had that Demonstrate over and over and over again.

He just goes right back to it And I think the fact that people see that makes him go

I don't really need to do any special preparation for this they assume that The best and the worst of Muslims are all within a very short spectrum.

They're not anyone who's listened to Shabir Ali knows that but still the arguments of those types of guys the

Apologists was in our chat channel another Ahmed and people like that That's more what you see on the

Muslim Street And so even when you're having a bad argument being presented to you still have to provide a response to it and interestingly enough along these lines as I mentioned what what makes me a little bit nervous a little bit scared about Diving into this aside from doing this this late in in my life

And all the work that's involved with that. I mean learning another language at this time of life. It's been really fun is keeping the ministry growing and and stable and and doing the things that it needs to do and The blog is very important along those lines and writing lengthy blog articles that require research and Gathering of sources is a very large

Time consuming thing and so one thing I did come up with in talking with some people involved with the the group

That's helping me with the study a Lot of them use a lot of them one of the individuals who's especially well known in this area

Uses YouTube and it is easier to Fire up the camera give you a response and upload it to YouTube than necessarily type all that stuff out so I know that I want to try to shift over a little bit doesn't mean

I'm gonna stop doing written articles, but Especially in providing responses and not just to Islam But to all sorts of other things

I mean I have enough books out there on various subjects to keep potshots going in my direction for a long time

But to do more of my responses right from my desk and in fact if you go to our website right now

You will see my first effort at this. It's gonna improve. I'm gonna get a little better camera and That microphone is about six years old and cost nine dollars and 99 cents

So we're gonna yeah, you're gonna have a better one already have a better one in my office do that But this morning.

I didn't even know how to splice video together insert PowerPoint stuff or anything else so all complaints can be directed to Bartimaeus in our chat channel.

He will answer all your your complaints, but I put together a response to a specific

Well -known Islamic apologist and as we so often do here. I let him speak for himself

I I put his video in and then respond to it, and that's the kind of thing

That's it takes a little less time it didn't today obviously because I'd never done it before but as you get better, and you know the you know the

The thing and you know the program better and stuff like that you you know are able to Work a little bit better and and get things done a little bit faster and a little bit more efficiently

So anyway, you can take a look at that, and that'll give you at least an idea of Hopefully some of the stuff that you'll be able to see

Appearing on the blog in not too distant future in the form of video responses and things like that So I need wisdom to know how to work effectively to work efficiently and Obviously we need your support.

This is not something that's Even though I'm the one that has to do the vast majority of this work by myself

This does mean I think More pressure upon everybody here, and in fact to just give you an idea

I Have asked the entire staff Gathered from all over the building the entire staff

And I would like to have the entire staff Say hello to you Now here go ahead first person first person hey no no

That that was there there that was it. Thank you very much entire staff You've now heard from the entire staff of Alpha Omega Ministries.

That was rich And that's me and people forget that that that's it we we have a few volunteers but it's it's me and rich and So I don't have anyone to be assisting me in this because rich has got to keep everything else going

He's doing the editing of the videos and and all those things and so that keeps him very very very busy and He was calling for Zeke by the way, which is

Sort of more like the the corporate mascot than than anything else don't you think yeah? He's he's more the corporate mascot guard dog

You know stuff like that, and he and we won't tell you by the way He stays here all the time to eat people who come in or not.

Yeah, well. You know he he certainly keeps the carpets warm Yes, he does that way We also we you know it's important to point out that we have two mottos here and one being the gospel is ours to proclaim

And not to edit and the other one is we make a penny scream bloody murder before we let it go

That one's not on the website anywhere, but I've probably mentioned a few times So we do live on a on a shoestring and so Even those few people who are gonna get all offended and and some already have

You know some have expressed you know hey You know I used to listen to you all the time and really enjoyed it because you were talking about Calvinism or at least by Roman Catholicism that is this

Muslim stuff just bores me to tears and You know I understand that and I'm not asking anybody else to do this this work

But I I can tell you this that if over the years You have come to have some semblance of trust in what we do and trust in me and as an individual to do what is

Right before the Lord. I can assure you that when I am studying the subject when

I am Gathering information. I'm researching. I'm learning Arabic I'm studying the

Quran the hadith and these things like that and and preparing for future debates and and Working on book ideas along these lines

There is never a time when I feel more Certain more at peace that I'm doing what

I'm supposed to do then at that time When I have to do other things I feel like I'm taking time away from what

I should be doing so if You have any trust in me as an individual as a minister to discern the will of God.

I can tell you This is what I'm supposed to be doing so in light of that then in light of the beginning of this this doctoral program, then

I would simply Ask for your prayers certainly ask for your support to to For example,

I we've have not mentioned this but At least I have not I don't think I have mentioned it.

I've mentioned it in the chat channel I don't think I have on the program or on the on the blog

While there is funding for the tuition and things like that My Islamic library has grown by leaps and bounds and that has not been cheap

Let me tell you something high -end Islamic works Arabic works resources documentation especially in this area is not cheap and Those who support us know that we are known as people who back up what we're saying

We're not like the folks who go running around grabbing any of the newest theories and any of the newest popular

Arguments and just running with them because that's a good thing to do We check out what we're saying we want to be able to back up what we're saying there's there's a standard involved here and Be able to do that.

You have to have resources and we did that with Mormonism we have a huge number of LDS books and Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholicism and That's you know, the majority of my library is dedicated to those things finding

Islamic works is not nearly as easy and Many of them are very very expensive.

In fact at a meeting this past weekend one of the the leaders of the of the group was very proudly carrying around two volumes of the

Encyclopedia of the Quran still on the plastic that he had managed to grab for $100 each

And now I have the entire encyclopedia the Quran and a couple of those vol well all those volumes retail new for $356 per volume

I got a number of mine used but even used they were They were more than a hundred apiece and he got his brand new 400 piece

So in other words, we all knew he had really worked a good bargain and he was proud of that that's just an illustration of what you're talking about here and this afternoon

Rich and I were sitting there and The mailman came and I got the package and I was like wow, look at this it was a book from Germany that I had ordered a little over a week ago and It is a book that in the back though most of its in German which

I can muddle through if I have to but Though most of its German there are English articles and there is an excellent article documenting and providing

Graphical evidence photocopies of Textual variants in the Quran the very thing that we were talking to a

Muslim in channel about today Who he just said that's just not possible That you you couldn't show me anything that can prove that well, okay.

All right, whatever you say, but Those those books you don't find at your local

Barnes & Noble. Okay, it it takes you got to know where you got to get him straight from the from the publishers themselves and They're coming from overseas.

So there's shipping charges, etc, etc. So We've already invested a lot into Into this this doctoral program to allow me to be able to do at least some of my work here

Without having to run someplace else and there aren't very many places in the US to run that has this kind of information even a lot of major libraries and do not have much in the way of Arabic or Islamic resources and so Those are all things that I would ask you to be in prayer about and to prayerfully consider

Helping us with and the main thing is obviously, you know, I want to do this work

I want I'm willing to put out the hours and hours and hours and hours of effort that it takes to do this kind of thing but for me

I'd like to be able to just focus upon that and not have to worry about what kind of impact it's having as far as Support goes and things like that.

I mean honestly if there could be some people who would step up and say, you know we're gonna do everything we can to make sure that the work continues on and all these other areas and that you can undertake this kind of stuff and produce the the apologetics the defense of the the

Trinity the deity of Christ the crucifixion the resurrection the New Testament and Provide this kind of material especially to our persecuted brothers and sisters overseas

We're gonna do that and that obviously would make the the effort itself significantly easier and more enjoyable than to have to always be

Fighting the reverse battle. So that's for those of you who are wondering I've even seen

I haven't really had an opportunity of Watching the chat channel a whole lot as I've been speaking, but people are going well

So is a big announcement that you're teaching a Golden Gate now. I've been teaching a Golden Gate since 1995

Those are the Phoenix area. I think there still is time to sign up for the class. It begins I think Monday night the 28th of January so I think there still would be time if you did want to see if it would be possible for you to take that Class it's going to be very interesting.

It's alternating Monday nights through this semester through Golden Gate here in the

Arizona campus But no, that's not the the big announcements the big big announcements It has been put off until we can make it announcement that actually means something

That will be coming up shortly. It's not going to take forever to get all the wires uncrossed but the announcement that I really make today is the beginning of a

PhD program in Islamic studies and The work really has already begun in that with the study of Arabic and things like that But the lawyers have provided the the funding for that but I just simply asking our our supporters those who believe that what we do is important and that it is important to provide this kind of apologetic to stand with us and to be with us along those lines, so 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number if you would like to comment on that I relieved just don't try calling up trying to get any hints about the other thing you can tell pretty much what it's about by what

I've already said, but We'll we'll wait until we can give you websites you can go to have all the information and look pretty and are accurate and functional functional good thing for websites functional websites are always very good and That will be coming up in a in a brief period of time

So pray for us and if you have any questions about that 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number and you can get online

And we also will be taking our break and coming back with the floods of phone calls as they come in right after this

How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

Following Jesus It's a walk of praise What is dr.

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you Oh Yeah, that wasn't me that was somebody else who will not be named it was not

Zeke so that pretty much exhausts the other possibilities Welcome back to the dividing line. We've got some phone calls on hold 877 -753 -3341

We haven't done any dividing lines in a while So there may have been some things that happened while we've been gone that you would like to discuss and Hopefully, I will know that they took place

I Mean for a few days there. I was I didn't know what was going on in the world.

I really didn't and so Well, we'll see what's going on. But let's start up in a place where Probably sick and tired of politics and that's up in Iowa.

Let's talk to Kendall. Hi Kendall Hey, how's? You feel a little burned out up there in Iowa.

Oh, yeah small town of Burlington. We've had all the big hitters And you know what they ain't coming back brother better have enjoyed it while they were there

So anyway, that's not what you called about whoever well, no, I'm really glad you addressed this

I'll have to admit Listening to some of the dividing lines about Islam. I'm thinking. Oh boy.

Where's the reformed theology? But tonight you really grabbed my attention because I realized the threat and I have for a long time and we really don't have any good

Evangelical reform apologists that are willing to take this on and so I really appreciate what you said tonight and Well, I hope you'll pray for us and you know, it's a it's a long -term project.

Obviously It's not something can be done overnight a lot of research a lot of eyestrain I'm certainly willing to do it.

I love doing it. I but but my the key challenge is how do I do that and Continue to say yes to the many opportunities that I have to do debates and to and to speak

That's a balancing act. I'm gonna need wisdom physical strength and Certainly support of God's people to be able to do it, but I'm convinced

Yeah, that was my next question, you know, like if we have a local Christian radio station that needs supported You know if if 300 people would pitch in, you know monthly support of say five fifty bucks a month

That would cover the cost. So have you I mean out of all the listeners of everyone listening contributed $50 a month

Alpha and Omega. Mm -hmm. I mean what I Make a huge impact. I mean rich rich knows those things and and you all do know that we don't

Spend time on this program talking about this. We just don't and it's and it's not however because we have some big huge grant

That isn't the case either to be honest with you, it's the it's the website that has has

Made made us turn the corner and and made us You know viable and and stable over time,

I mean I can tell you over the years Hasn't been the case. So yeah, that's exactly what is needed is is not, you know big donors scare me because they make big promises and then they're almost never there and It's it's the people who go

You know what? I see that this does need to be done and I want to have a part in in encouraging

The the persecuted church overseas they need this kind of information I mean, I didn't you know,

I didn't say a lot about it, but back in in early December I was recorded I recorded 32 programs that will be translated into Farsi and Arabic for satellite distribution in Muslim lands and I'm gonna have an opportunity to do more of that and it's a great it's a great honor and and basically

I Don't know why but a lot of folks who know a lot about these things really aren't good at speaking and the people who are really good speaking generally don't know a lot about these things and I sort of fit in the middle someplace and can take these subjects and can make them interesting to people

So that's what I want to do. Well right now we're watching your debate Sunday night was our first one your debate against Peter Stravinskis purgatory

And the guys thought you know You hit it out of the park as far as they're listening to the arguments

Yeah, yeah, so we're looking forward to working through that as far as you know, you're right on Islam On my web blog.

I've got an unreached people group of the day and Every you know this 1040 window these unreached people groups

You know 99 % Muslim and you know, if you look at the martyrs 160 ,000 a year the majority of them as you mentioned are at the hands of Muslims and yes, we'd all agree that they're peace -loving

Muslims. But yeah, I I Agree, this has to be dealt with and and I'm ignorant

I mean, yeah, I know some of the basics, but what would you recommend as a good book?

That's the other part is that I'm supposed to be right now and Lord willing next week.

We'll be able to start. I want to put together Have you seen these? Oxford very

Very very short introduction books. I'm not sure if you have or not But Oxford has like 200 of these very very short introduction books and they're yeah

They're about a hundred and sixty pages long, but they're a little bit smaller cuts. So They're the kind of book.

I really like them because if I'm traveling or something like that, I can throw it in my bag It's easy to carry interesting to read.

It doesn't take you forever. I have been talking with a Publisher about putting together a book on the subject of the cross for Muslims on that very subject and and putting it in That type of format and I have a bunch of things that I want to do along those lines the problem is the

Sun keeps going down at the end of the day and This this strange feeling comes over me.

I have to go to sleep and and so there's so many things like that I want to do and I really do feel there is a need for Written material there are books out there

But not a lot of them come from a really solid reformed background Interestingly enough one of them that I really enjoyed from Zondervan is called understanding the

Quran and I'm the name of the author is escaping me right now, but it's published by Zondervan it's in the same type of small little introduction format, but it actually covered much more than just the

Quran it and it's and it's written by a Presbyterian Pastor who

I believe that he has a former Muslim and so it is reformed in its Soteriology and things like that.

So it's really good. So I that's one I wish we were carrying actually is that that little little book and but I want to add to that and that's that's my goal that's my desire is to is to write a lot in that field and To get it out there to people who really need it.

Well, I've enjoyed your ministry We're getting ready to sit down with our family to eat.

I'm going to seriously talk to my wife about Looking at our finances, and I'll just challenge the listeners.

I mean if you've appreciated your ministry, I know I have and I think there needs to be a lot done in this area.

So I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you very much All right. Thank you and and have a good dinner while you're at it.

All right Bye -bye, I have completely lost control of and you've lost the phones too, huh?

The the system hath died a thousand deaths and I can't bring it back up either

So something something happened to the the phone system there and okay I just got it just came up here and but I can't log in so Yeah, I think you have to restart it and we lost

We have them oh So, can you I don't know who they are can't see him anymore, but you want to bring up our that may be why you were looking at me so strangely because my screen showed line three ringing and You had probably already cleared the call and mine had already locked up and was lost.

So Okay, I Don't know who we've got Caller, can you hear me?

Hello. Hello. Yes, sir. I've got you and unfortunately Our system has gone kaflouie and so we've lost your name and everything but please

Introduce yourself. All right. Well, I'm in New Jersey. Oh, okay. And before I even say who it is

Oh, okay. Can I drive to this big announcement or do I have to fly?

You've already asked that question stinkwits, so Hi, James Swan Who has single -handedly

Managed to keep the blog alive while I was off Doing some of the stuff that we're talking about right now

And so I want to thank you publicly for doing so and I want to I really think honestly that we should begin the the order of Job We should come up with some sort of little prize the order of Job to be given to whoever amongst our blog group is currently

The one receiving all of the attention from Dave Armstrong and And and and Congratulations for being a

James White wannabe The problem with that is that you still have your hair In fact, you have enough of it to dye different strange colors and I don't have any at all.

So Hey, at least you have not asked me to have angel change our blog graphic to reflect your new character

Don't even go there no not gonna happen not in this lifetime While you were talking about Islam was

I saw you speak Probably over a year or two ago now in a little church here in New Jersey And I remember the thing that that actually stunned me right in my seat was hearing you talk about the way

Islam is growing as compared to the way say the birth rate of those of us in the

United States Right is growing and I was wondering if you could just maybe just quickly mention that what

I was probably talking about was in Europe Most people need to know for a society to maintain its population

The average woman has to have 2 .1 children in the United States, right? We're at 2 .0 So we're fairly close to that but in Europe, especially the birth rates amongst the indigenous people

The the native French the native Germans is very very low in Russia. For example, they have more

Abortions and they have live births and the average birth rate is only 1 .5 in Russia and when you drop down that low the indigenous people they disappear over time and And it's not a long period of time.

It's only a matter of generations and the the immigrants to these nations from Muslim countries are

Outpopulating these folks very very quickly. For example in France The average French woman has 1 .8

children per woman the average Pakistani immigrant to France the woman has 4 .56

children per woman per woman. So all you gotta do is do the math. The the math is is inexorable and that is as the indigenous population decreases and the immigrant immigrant population is is reproducing at a significantly higher rate than the the indigenous population is you're going to have a massive shift and unfortunately

Once those numbers start getting real close to one another you tend to have Violence and warfare which in essence is what you saw in France last summer and the summer before last

I'm sorry with the burning of I don't know how many tens of thousands of cars and and things like that and That's what's heading for a majority of the

European nations even the Scandinavian countries are experiencing these types of things and There is there is going to be a major change in the way this world looks in the not -too -distant future and what that also means along these lines is that That means more and more

Christians the few Christians there are in those nations will be living under Islamic rule that's called dimitude we are the

Al -kitab that the people of the book and we have special status according to Islam along with Jews as Being a protected monotheistic religion, but what is protected mean?

I mean think of the fact of Jews Along with the Jews. Okay. Yeah, there's what's kind of protection

Do you get there and the whole idea of Demi status is really meant to destroy these churches?

over time by precluding That Christianity if you're a

Christian, you're not going to be able to move up in in the social order You're not gonna be able to do many things Education is closed off to you economic opportunities closed off to you proselytization is closed off to you and it is really meant to Destroy these these religions under the control of Islam as it did pretty much all across North Africa after the

Islamic expansion from 632 to 732 and so that's heading for Europe unless they

Wake up or something changes and I I'm not a prophet nor a son of a prophet

But you look at those numbers and you go. Wow, that's that's an amazing statistic Yeah, how can this not be the one of the most crucial issues and you know

The church were way behind on this on this subject and what you're doing now

I think is laying the groundwork for a lot of people in the future that are going to be faced with this problem, you know if the

Lord tarry's and I I commend you for what you're doing. I Daily pray for you.

Thank you in this and well, you know all the best and and and of course James we joke but the the men who

Contribute to the blog and and to do the research and I know how much time it takes You now, of course,

I think the Luther tattoo went a little bit too far. But But I mean it does take time to do what you're doing and to try to do it, right

I know there's great temptations to respond, especially to Dave Armstrong in certain ways and and it's

It's hard work and I really appreciate the fact that you you're doing that I know a lot of people really enjoy reading your material and and That of the other the other fellows when they can contribute to the blog and so we're very very people

I it is hard to notice recently, isn't it? But you know Yeah, they're still

Yeah, only slightly I understand well, thank you very much and I really do appreciate your your prayers, thank you

I take care. God bless. Bye. Bye 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 let's talk to Daniel in California hi

Daniel Hi, dr. White. How are you doing? I'm good Good. Um, if it's not detracting too much from the subject,

I had a question concerning Muslim scholarship. Uh -huh and now when you

Debate someone like Shabir Ali and he references certain types of scholars with respect to You know, and we would see them more as liberal scholars or secular scholars within the

Christian community Like Bart Ehrman or something like that, and I'm curious is that as you? begin to look into Muslim scholars from that perspective and Realizing that there's secular

Muslim scholars out there. How is it that? What approach are you kind of using so that perhaps a conservative

Muslim one won't accuse you of being Of quoting say a Muslim a liberal Muslim scholar and say oh

Well, you know you charge us of using say Bart Ehrman or something But here you're you're either studying this resource or that particular resource

And how do you how do you make that kind of distinction or in your approach to that that particular type of study?

Well, the first things that I've had to do and I've been very thankful to Sam Shamoon who is just so knowledgeable in this area

Has been to recognize that there's just as many divisions amongst the Muslims as there are

Amongst those who call themselves Christians you have your major divisions of Sunni and Shia of course but then even within those you have

Sufis and They you know I mean you can be a Sunni and a Sufi at the same time and a

Sunni who's not a Sufi and then you've got Salafis and you've got all sorts of different views of What hadith

Collections are the most authoritative and how you to interpret these things and you've got all these different Legal theories that go way way back.

I mean the divisions and the terminology is Incredibly challenging and I'll be honest with you until I until I came to the point where I can now read

Arabic and In other words read the script and go. Oh, that's that word. Oh, okay now

I can stick that in my mind It was very difficult for me to even Remember the terminology because it's so strange to us

To to know which groups are which and so if I'm going to be debating A particular individual who is well, for example, for example the upcoming debate with Nader Ahmed He leans toward the

Salafi sector. And so obviously it's best just as if I was if I was debating Well, I've done debates my

Presbyterian brothers on baptism, I'm not going to be quoting Ergon Kanner for them.

I need to know I know I need to know the difference Well the same way if I'm going to be debating someone who has

Salafi Type of leaning and and the predilection then

I'm gonna want to Stick with those particular kinds of scholars that write from that perspective Rather than somebody who would be writing against them and for example another does not like Shabir at all

I mean he spent half the time when he was at Phoenix Reformed ripping on Shabir Ali and so That would be similar to you know, when when

Dave Hunt debates Shabir He's probably if Shabir mentions me. I doubt

Dave's gonna have anything overly complimentary to say about my theology either. So figuring out what those divisions are and Recognizing that type of stuff very very important And of course for most of these things, especially the area

I'm studying I'm going to so far back in history that I'm primarily looking at source documents and The earliest writings of the of the

Muslims that that exist and so some of the modern divisions obviously The vast majority the modern divisions other than the

Sunni Shia division didn't exist back then so it's That kind of stuff isn't quite as relevant at that point

But certainly when you're quoting modern scholarship and modern Islamic scholars you've got to have some idea of where they're coming from and what their their particular bent is and that can be a little bit difficult to To ascertain at first.

Like I said, Sam Shimon's been great a great help along those lines So that's first thing and then yeah go from there

All right. All right. Thanks. All right. God bless Daniel. Thank you All right. Well, thanks to listen to the dividing line today

I cannot guarantee that we will have the big announcement next Tuesday We might and I'm not trying to string you along with this.

Trust me We want to get this out and get get people excited about ASAP Because it is relevant to what

I said today, but maybe not in the ways that you're thinking You'll see when we get a chance to tell you

I'm excited about it. Hope you will be too We'll be here Tuesday Lord willing here on the dividing line. God bless

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