SRR #42 | Heresy, and Apostasy, and False Teaching, Oh My!

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Giveaway Winner and Podcast Banter

Okay, alright. Hey everybody, this is Tim from Semper Reformanda Radio. I'm here with my sidekick, Liam. Say hi, you've got to talk into the mic.

Hi.

Alright, so he's going to help me out today with our drawing. And I want to say thank you to Doug Dalma who gave us all the Clark books. And then Semper Reformanda Radio is providing the book by Doug Dalma.

It's a signed copy. So we had about 20, I think it was right at 20, 20 people who shared the post and participated in the drawing. So let me just go ahead and show everybody again. It's a signed copy of The Presbyterian Philosopher.

And then we have all the other books are by Gordon Clark. So Liam, what do you think this book is about right here?

Daniel.

So Liam thinks this book is about Daniel. That's proof that he's learning how to read because this book is about Colossians. But he's familiar with Daniel and the Tiger, Daniel and the Lion's Den. He was thrown in a lion's den.

Yeah. Alright. So then we have Lord God of Truth. This one right here. We have Gordon Clark's personal recollections. We have Language and Theology. We have The Incarnation. We have his book on Philippians.

And we have The Atonement. So we're going to give all of these away right now to somebody who shared our last podcast. And Liam's going to help me with drawing out the names. Liam, can you go ahead and pick?

You've got to pick one. Just pick one, okay? Don't pick up two because then we'll be in trouble. Oh, you picked up two. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Alright.

So here, close your eyes. Put one of them back in.

Alright.

Alright. So that's the one you're drawing out. He can't read, by the way, and I can't see it yet.

Okay.

So, alright. So these books are going to be going to Ryan Dozier. That's perfect.

Alright.

So congratulations to Ryan. You are the winner. And sorry to everybody else, but, you know, God's sovereign. So let's just be happy for Ryan. In light of God's sovereignty, he won. So Ryan, maybe you need this, man.

Maybe you need these books. Now, Ryan's a good guy. He's already very familiar with Clark. I know that he calls himself a Clarktillion or maybe a Framond, because I think he holds to Robert Raymond and John Frame's views.

So, anyways, Ryan, congratulations. And, again, thank you to everybody else. Sorry, Andre Rapture Poot. You did not win. Alright. Alright. Thanks, guys.

Bye.

I do a podcast.

I'm not interested in your podcast.

These are wolves.

Truth be told, I oftentimes lay awake at night trying to figure out how I can get rid of wolves.

We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so the next few statements that I'm going to make, I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillion toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.

We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style.

I would first say that to characterize what we do as fashion is itself fashion. It's not hate. It's history. It's not fashion. It's the Bible.

Jesus said, Woe to you when men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way, as opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle.

Defining the Ministry and Critiquing The Shack

All right. Welcome, everybody. This is Simple Riff around the radio. My name is Tim, and I am here with my other co-host, Carlos Montijo. I think Joseph was supposed to be here. He got the memo, but I don't know what happened to him, so he may pop in, and we're hoping he does.

If he doesn't, then, well, that's fine. So, Carlos, what do you think of the new intro that I put together?

Yeah, that's like the rebirth of Simple Riff around the radio. It is awesome. It's like inspirational music for me. Hopefully people liked it and enjoy it. Obviously, it's polarizing, needless to say, but that's what we do here.

So we just try to draw the line where we see it, drawn in the Bible, and tell people the side that God is on. So, yeah, I know we have a lot to catch up on, and there's just a lot of I think this might be a little bit of a catch-all episode, but the reason I mentioned it was kind of like a rebirth episode is because we kind of started off a little late.

Well, when we started doing Simple Riff Armando, we just sort of like started guns blazing, doing shows right away without really defining who we are. And I think we're finally starting to do that more clearly now, ever since the last episode especially, and I think this one as well, because we're going to take a very strong stand against Hank Hanegraaff's decision to apostatize from Christianity.

But, yeah, I'm looking forward to the discussion, and we're going to talk about a lot of some pretty controversial stuff. So stay tuned.

Yeah, I'm kind of nervous about this episode because we're jumping in the fire. But let me also mention this. You recently published an article on the Web Thumping Wingnut Facebook webpage that I sort of want you to talk about, and it has to do with the shack.

And I've never read the shack. I don't know anything about it. I've read your article. But go ahead and tell us a little bit about that. I want to encourage people to check out that article. If you have friends who are still endorsing the shack or wanting to get some information on it, because you actually, from what I could see, you actually dig into the content of the shack, the theological content, and give a pretty handed review of it.

Yeah, so what happened with that review, that's actually a that was adapted, somewhat adapted from a paper I wrote back in college, I think in 2010 or something, or around that time. And it was for like a religious studies class.

And so I got the book. I don't know how I got the book. But I read through it, and it was just it was pretty nauseating, just how blasphemous and heretical. And it's really hard to have to sit and read through all that.

But yeah, this is what tends to happen with people who do podcasts or people who like to listen to podcasts. What happens a lot of times is that people don't really get into the meat of things, and it's very easy to you just kind of start operating off of hearsay and opinion, and you just start giving opinions without really substantiating your claims.

And so what we like to do at Simple Reform on the Radio is actually provide you quotations, sources. We like to give you the sources and cite them and discuss them so that you can have a well-informed and well-equipped decision.

And so that's what we decided to do because a lot of the resources that I was seeing are just basically a compilation of other resources and kind of references to other pastors or people critiquing the book.

But I haven't really seen anything, at least from our network, that's actually trying to get into the book and see what it actually says. So that's what I set out to do. I set out to basically just critique it biblically and provide all of the relevant quotations that I could find that were most troubling or most problematic.

There was more. I mean, there was a lot more, but this was basically about the worst that I could find. And so, yeah, it's an awful book. It's an absolutely horrendous book. It just the fact that it markets itself as a Christian book for Christians, or I guess for people who might be curious about it's not necessarily just for Christians, but it's obviously promoting itself as a Christian book.

And the fact that you have Christians like well, you know, I don't know if professing Christians like Eugene Peterson, the author of the Message Bible. You have even Kent Hovind. Not somebody who you would expect.

Coming from an independent, fundamentalist, King James Only perspective, that's just very odd coming from a perspective like that, that he would endorse that book. He said he read it when he was in prison and he liked it.

And so there's a lot of CBN. I quote an article from CBN that also endorses the book. And so a lot of people are being misled by this and kind of saying, well, you know, it's a good fictional novel. It's just fiction, but it's using the story to try to explain certain things about God.

And it's like, well, yeah, that's the problem, though, because the way you do that can contradict the Bible. And the way he does that in the shack completely blatantly contradicts and disregards the Bible.

So I encourage people to look at that, take a look at that, so you can find actual quotations from the book. I try to quote them in context as much as possible, describing all the different errors and heresies.

And, yeah, but there's all kinds of errors in that book. And there's just all kinds of wild heresies that we don't even have names for yet. So it's just amazing that we're at the point where a book that's so blatantly blasphemous and heretical calls itself a Christian book and Christians actually like it.

You know, when back at our old church, when we were like at a house cleaning sale or something, people were getting rid of some books and the shack was there. And one of the, I guess, elders of the church saw it.

And he was like, oh, look, it's the shack, this was a good book. And I was like, what? That's like, that's all he said. And so I was pretty shocked that that was all he said. It was a good book. And I was just like, oh, man, that really troubled me.

I mean, we're no longer at the church anymore. And that's, you know, it's that was just a symptom of the many problems that that church had. But, yeah, this really, the movie, I haven't seen the movie and I don't really plan to, but I'm sure it's not much better.

So, yeah, just people need to be careful with that stuff and check out the article. I also have a lot of resources that I refer people to that were very helpful, especially Paul Flynn and what's his name?

Michael Yousef. I think he has a good sermon and I think an article exposing some of the heresies in the book as well.

Hank Hanegraaff, Pulpit and Pen, and the Bible Answer Man

Yeah, well, going back to the new intro that we have, I think that it really defines who we are, like you said. And one of the things that I quoted was you saying that we are polemical and we are polarizing Jesus style.

And we, of course, are doing this because we care about people. And we actually, if you care about the truth and you care about people receiving the truth, then you should have no problem with any of this stuff.

But today we're going to be talking about Hank Hanegraaff. We're going to be talking about Pulpit and Pen. We're going to be talking about James White. And before everybody gets, I can see a lot of people just sitting back in their chairs going, uh-oh, Semper Reformanda is really going to step in at this time.

But let me start off with this. We love James White. We love J .D. Hall. We love both of their ministries. As a matter of fact, Carlos, you have a lot to owe to James White because he pulled you out of, God used him to pull you out of the King James only-ism cult when you first became a Christian.

Is that right?

Yeah, well, I'm very deeply indebted to James White. He's one of the few people that actually takes the time to actually debate other cults and sub-Christian groups that can really sweep people off their faith very easily, especially new believers and people who are not that familiar with the Bible.

And so I owe James White two big things. It's not just the fact that he led me out of King James only-ism. I read his book, and it really helped me kind of balance out my extreme views. And he also helped me, introduced me to Calvinism in a positive light because King James only-ism typically are very, very anti-Calvinist and to a large extent rabidly anti-Calvinist.

And so it was thanks to his ministry that I became a Calvinist and a more balanced Christian that is not so, with irrational views of textual criticism. So, yeah, we definitely love James White. I listen to, he's one of my favorite podcasts that I listen to.

I mean, I really appreciate his work.

Yeah, and the same thing goes for JD Hall. We very much respect JD Hall. He's also a Reformed Baptist. And, you know, here's the thing. If you're not disagreeing with somebody somewhere, then you're just probably not being a Berean.

So these guys, we hold them in high, high regard. Now, we know that there are some disagreements going on between Alpha and Omega Ministries and Pulpit and Pen. And some of that has to do with a post that was put up by a guy named Tom Buck.

Now, here's what I'm going to say about that right now is we are not going to talk about that. We are not going to get involved in that. There's an important update from, I believe it would be Tom Buck, on April 28, 2017.

And hopefully this doesn't change and things continue to go in the direction that they're going by the time that this episode is released. But it says, due to recent developments, I will not be commenting in any public forum regarding the situation described in the below post for the time being.

Circumstances have arisen that give hope for a biblical and godly outcome. So praise God for that. I am requesting that all those involved would also no longer comment on this situation in any public forum, including open or closed groups on Facebook.

And as we've said before, we think that Facebook can be a nightmare. So during this, he continues, during this time, any comments made on this site regarding this topic will be deleted by the administrator.

Thank you. And please be in prayer for a godly and peaceful resolution to this difficult situation, Tom Buck. So, yeah, it was written by Tom Buck. So we want to honor that. OK, we we want to honor that.

If you post any comments about that whole situation, we're we're just going to flat out ignore you. We want to honor that. We want to encourage everybody else to pray about the situation. We're very encouraged that that, you know, Tom said that there's a peaceful resolution underway, that there's hope for that.

So that's that's what we have to say about that. And we're not interested in in furthering any gossip. We're not interested in being fanboys. Like I said, we would probably we would disagree with both of these guys on on something.

And to be honest with you, I am in no position to take either of them on theologically. Dr. White would wipe the floor with us. So would J .D. Hall. So we just we have a lot of respect for these guys and that's where we stand.

But the purpose of this episode is really to just discuss the way that we should view Hank Hanegraaff. And we want to sort of come out and stand behind pulpit and pen. We've talked about this with the members of our podcast that we agree with the way that pulpit and pen has addressed this issue.

And I mean, I suppose that that means that we're going to be sticking our neck out there. But we're provoked by everything that we've seen with Hank Hanegraaff. And as a matter of fact, I'll admit I heard about the whole situation through the article that Jeff Maples wrote.

I had no idea that any of this was underway, that any of this was going on. I stopped listening to the Bible Answer Man a couple of years ago, and that was just simply because of my job. I go in at an odd time.

And so the radio station that I don't have a radio at home, an AM FM radio at home. Believe it or not, I just listen to stuff online. And if I'm not in my car, then I'm missing it. And I'm just, you know, because of my job and the hours that I go in, I'm just never in the car when the Bible Answer Man comes on the radio.

But since then, I've been kind of following it. And I've seen a lot of Christians sort of buckle under the task of being polemical. And it's surprised me that pulp and pen has taken so much heat for the Hank Hanegraaff stuff.

And so, okay, so first let's do this. Hank Hanegraaff has come out and written an article. And he read this article on his show, you know, Have I Left the Christian Faith? And so let me read some points from the article.

And then, or as a matter of fact, if you would like to read this article, that would be helpful. And then I will play a couple of clips from Hank Hanegraaff. Because as a lot of people know, I did call into the show.

And I asked him about the doctrine of justification by faith alone, if he held to it. He cut me off. I got really nervous, like I said before, because I was thinking this is national radio. It's live.

And I have no control over this conversation. And so I started rambling. I was trying to get everything out. I asked him, you know, if I could respond to him after he said something. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

Naive me, he just cut me off and didn't even answer my question. And James White pointed out that, you know, it's an up or down question. Do you hold to the doctrine of justification by faith alone? It's an up or down question.

And let me just say this. We don't want to rehash everything that's already been said. We want to sort of come at this from a different angle. And we're going to be reading an article from the Trinity Foundation titled Why Heretics Win Battles.

And what we want to do is we want to just talk about how we think that Christians should respond to a situation like this. So, Carlos, are you with me on that? Is that pretty much the goal of what we're doing here?

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, yeah. So let's go ahead and read the article.

You know what?

Did you pull up the show notes? Because I can just read it myself.

I'll read it. So Hank Kendergraft posted something. And here's what he said. Through Christian Research Institute staff and friends, I've become aware of the chatter on the Internet. The gist of which is that I've walked away from the Christian faith.

Amid holy week, I pray that those forwarding this notion may have an ever deeper encounter with our crucified and resurrected Lord. May they and their loved ones be blessed and their faith strengthened.

If I have caused any to stumble, I humbly ask forgiveness. My purpose in this post is not so much to respond but to reassure. As I have never been more in love with my wife and family, so, too, I have never been more in love with the Lord Jesus and his body, the Church.

As such, I confess my faith in the deity of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through whom all things were made.

I believe that's the Nicene Creed or one of the historic creeds. I affirm the doctrine of original sin. Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because of all sin, Romans 5 .12.

I am deeply committed to the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, 1 Timothy 3 .15, and to the Holy Scriptures, the only infallible repository of redemptive revelation, 2 Timothy 3 .15 -16.

I love the Holy Trinity, one God revealed in three persons, eternally distinct. I am deeply grateful that the true and living God invites us to participate in the loving relationships that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have enjoyed throughout eternity.

I hold the glorious reality that Jesus rose on the third day according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. I am grateful to the Lord Jesus, who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary, and became man.

That's another historic creed, I think. I thank God daily that I am a new creation in Christ, for by grace I have been saved through faith, and that not of myself it is a gift of God, not of works, lest I should boast.

For we are his workmanship, and created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them, Ephesians 2 .8 -10. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come.

While there are many secondary issues, genuine believers will continue to debate this side of eternity. I have and will always champion what C .S. Lewis called mere Christianity. In essentials unity, non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity.

Hank Hanegraaff, Holy Week 2017.

Alright, well thank you for reading that. Now, it sounds like, the last point, I thank God daily that I am a new creation in Christ, and then it sounds like he's rejecting that works have anything to do with our salvation.

He says, for by grace I have been saved through faith, and that not of myself it is a gift of God, not of works, lest I should boast. And then, so then he quotes Ephesians 2 .8 -10. So, let me go ahead and play a couple of clips from recent episodes within the last few weeks of Hank Hanegraaff, and we can just talk about this afterwards.

So, let me go ahead and play these clips.

Salvation, Justification by Faith Alone, and the Bible Answer Man

I want to mention just a few things before we go to our callers. Again, the number 888-ASK-HANK. The first of which is that many are, by God's grace, joining CRI's support team. So, today I personalized copies of the Complete Bible Answer book and other books that I've written to people like Deanna in Issaquah, Washington, who is giving $10 a month.

And David in Westlake, Michigan, who's giving $25 a month. And Mary in Glenshaw, Pennsylvania, $50 a month. And Amber in Nebraska, $50 a month. Mary in Kansas, $20 a month. Lori in Kansas, $50 a month.

And the list goes on. My apologies for excluding, in the sake of or in the interest of time, many of those who are joining CRI's monthly support team. And when you do, of course, what I do is I….

All right.

So, let me just go ahead and comment on why I played that. You know, he's just talking about his supporters. Because a lot of people, in talking about Hank Hanegraaff, they're talking about being charitable.

They're concerned for Hank. But we should also be concerned about the fact that Hank has a platform. And we should also be concerned about all of those people that he just mentioned. And not only those people.

I mean, obviously, those people are devoted to him if they are supporting his ministry financially. But he does have a national radio program. And, you know, he's listing off Deanna, Amber, Mary twice.

Two Marys, Lori. So, you know, we're concerned about Hank. But we're also concerned about the people that he is quite possibly leading astray. The people that he is feeding false doctrine to. That he's just directing towards Roman Catholicism or he's directing towards Eastern Orthodoxy.

Because he affirms Roman Catholicism as a system. He affirms Roman Catholicism as a true manifestation of Christianity. And that is unbelievably problematic. So, let's go ahead and continue with that.

You know, I hope that everybody can just bear with that. Because that was to illustrate, look, it's not just about Hank. And, you know, I believe Todd Friel, in his critique, he did say to call the radio stations and voice your concern or something like that.

So, I mean, people are, I'm sure, concerned about this. But when I think about a false teacher or somebody who's directing somebody to a false teacher and has a major platform. In my mind, I'm always thinking, first and foremost, about those people that are being deceived.

And that are maybe just unfamiliar with these things or, you know, new Christians or whatever. And they are being deceived and they are being pointed in the direction of Rome. They are being pointed into the direction of something like Greek Orthodoxy.

Because I've done a radio show talking about my family. I have a lot of family members who are Roman Catholic. Carlos and I live in a city that is saturated with false teaching, false doctrine. And this has a potential to deceive thousands and thousands of people.

And so, like Carlos said, you know, in the introduction to our show, you know, it's time to battle. The gloves are coming off. It's time to battle. And we're battling for truth. And I do care about Hank Hanegraaff.

I am concerned about him. But I don't hold him as one who's ignorant. Obviously, I think that he did get duped. But I don't think that he's innocent in this. I don't think that he's ignorant. So, let's finish playing that clip.

I want to start the program with something and then, again, we'll go right to your calls, Triple A to Ask Hank. And that has to do with salvation. I've been asked a lot with respect to works and faith.

How are we supposed to view this? I talked about the Eastern Orthodox tradition. They don't see a dichotomy between faith and works. But I thought it might be important for me to go back to what the Bible says.

Particularly to what James says when he teaches that we are saved not by works, but by the kind of faith that produces good works. You remember his infamous words. I mean, they're words that some have taken to be very, very bad words.

Some have called this an epistle of straw because of these words. But James says, What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Of course, the answer is an emphatic no.

Because as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Now, you might think that these are my words. No, these are simply the reiteration of the words of James. I think it's verse 26.

And then when he says that a person is not justified by faith alone, what he's meaning to communicate is that a person is not justified by mental assent alone. And therefore he says, Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You believe that there is one God? Well, good for you. Even the demons believe that, and they shudder. In other words, what James is saying here is that demons believe in the sense of giving mental assent to the fact that there is only one true God, and all the while they fail to place their hope and trust in him.

To cash that out a little bit, remember that true saving faith is not only having knowledge or agreeing that the knowledge that you have is correct, but it is trusting in Jesus Christ alone, becoming an active participant in the kingdom of Jesus Christ.

And while James said that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone, and then you read Paul saying that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law, you don't have to for a moment think that their words are in some kind of conflict.

These words are in complete harmony. James was countering the false assertion that a said faith is a substitute. He's countering this false assertion, and I want to make real emphasis on that word false.

That's the operative word. He's countering the false assertion that a said faith is a substitute for a saving faith. And while Paul was countering, on the other hand, the equally fallacious notion that salvation can be earned by observing the law.

And remember, even the reformers used to say that justification is not by faith alone. Excuse me, they said that justification is by faith alone, but not by the kind of faith that is alone. That little mantra sometimes gets mixed up in my mind.

But again, the reformers used to say faith, justification is by faith alone, but again, not by the kind of faith that is alone. There's a whole lot more that could be said. You know, when we talk about sola fide as a technical theological term, it assumes a whole litany of concepts, kind of like the Trinity.

So we don't want to speak in a way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We want to speak in a way that's thoroughly biblical, test all things, and lay to Scripture, hold fast to that which is good.

Okay. So basically, as you heard, he said that he was asked to speak on the doctrine of salvation and justification by faith alone. From what it sounds like, he is affirming the Protestant Christian position.

I think that he got some things wrong in what he said, but Carlos, do you have any thoughts on any of that?

Yeah, well, what actually struck me more was what I read earlier, because he's very clearly holding to a sound understanding of the Gospel. And he has some misguided notions about, he's using a lot of misguided notions about the definition of faith, and things like that, and the concept of mere Christianity, which we've criticized a lot in a few of our episodes, and in order to justify his position or his joining the Greek Orthodox Church.

But I can see why this is a difficult situation, because this is the first time I read this, and he's being very clear, at least he's making it very clear that he's professing to believe in justification by faith alone, and so on and so forth.

So, that does complicate things a little bit more, even though the fact that he's saying this bare mental assent, or however he phrased it, and this concept of mere Christianity will eventually lead to his downfall, if he keeps going in that direction, because, again, that's why, and I've brought this up before, when C .S. Lewis wrote Mere Christianity, he did not exclude the Roman Catholic Church, he included the Roman Catholic Church in there, because mere Christianity for him, according to him, and according to even the historic creeds, do not include a definition, a biblical definition of justification by faith alone.

And so, that's just one of the many problems with those, you know, holding to this mere Christianity, and just sort of this bare, minimal set of doctrines from the early historic creeds. Those early historic creeds, a lot of those are so vague and general, that they're really not useful.

They're not useful for much of anything, if you're talking about defining Christianity, because they're so minimal that the Roman Catholic Church affirms them. And as Protestants, we rightly identify the Roman Catholic Church as an apostate institution that has condemned itself by condemning the Gospel, officially, in the Council of Trent.

And so, that's a very dangerous position that he is putting himself in. It sounds like he's going to start speaking out of both, you know, with a forked tongue, because it's like he's essentially trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

And it's impossible. You can't serve two masters, and you can't join an institution or a church that does not affirm what he claims to affirm, because they don't hold to that. And it's funny, because I just looked at the website for the church that he joined, and they have no statement of faith, they have nothing on here that indicates what they believe.

I mean, it's just... But I did find something else that I was going to read, but I guess we can talk about it later. Were you going to play something else?

Glenn Beck, Mormonism, and Redefining Christianity

Yeah, I did want to say a little bit more about that, because one of the things that I want to point out, one of the things that I want to try to illustrate is that many times, somebody who affirms an organization or institution that we would say is Antichrist, that we would say is blasphemous, that we would say is not Christian but heretical, will also say things that are very correct.

And it's very difficult to nail them down on where they actually stand. And we hear people who identify themselves in these organizations say things that sound very, very Christian and very right. So I want to play another clip for you, Carlos, and this is just to illustrate a point that we need to take this a little bit further.

We can't just leave this here. We cannot be satisfied with what we just heard. And let me go ahead and play this. This is Glenn Beck. He did a Facebook Live video, and I just want to play a little portion of it.

He's talking about how his kids were not accepted into a Christian school. And let me go ahead and play this for you, okay?

I just got a call from the dressing room before we do a show today. My wife called and said, well, the school that we had our kids ready to enroll in, that we were very excited about, has just called and said that they're not allowed to join.