SRR #42 | Heresy, and Apostasy, and False Teaching, Oh My!

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May 3, 2017

00:00: This podcast is a member of the Bible Thumping Wingnut Network. Alright, welcome everybody to another podcast episode with Semper Reformanda Radio.
00:09: Hi, welcome to Theology Gals. Welcome everyone to the Logical Belief Ministries podcast.
00:15: Well, welcome to School of Biblical Harmonetics. Welcome everybody to Grappling with Theology.
00:21: What is going on guys? Shining as light, coming at you. Well, welcome to Slick Answers. Good evening and welcome to Conversations from the
00:30: Port. Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the Bible Thumping Wingnut podcast. The Bible Thumping Wingnut Network.
00:38: Ten podcasts, one network. Check them out. BibleThumpingWingnut .com
00:45: Okay. Alright. Hey everybody, this is Tim from Semper Reformanda Radio. I'm here with my sidekick,
00:51: Liam. Say hi. You've got to talk into the mic. Hi. Alright, so he's going to help me out today with our drawing.
00:58: And I want to say thank you to Doug Dalma who gave us all the
01:05: Clark books. And then Semper Reformanda Radio is providing the book by Doug Dalma.
01:11: It's a signed copy. So we had about 20, I think it was right at 20, 20 people who shared the post and participated in the drawing.
01:21: So let me just go ahead and show everybody again. It's a signed copy of The Presbyterian Philosopher. And then we have all the other books are by Gordon Clark.
01:31: So Liam, what do you think this book is about right here? Daniel.
01:37: So Liam thinks this book is about Daniel. That's proof that he's learning how to read because this book is about Colossians.
01:45: But he's familiar with Daniel and the Tiger, Daniel and the Lion's Den.
01:50: He was thrown in a lion's den. Yeah, alright. So then we have
01:57: Lord God of Truth. This one right here. We have Gordon Clark's personal recollections.
02:06: We have Language and Theology. We have The Incarnation. We have his book on Philippians.
02:14: And we have The Atonement. So we're going to give all of these away right now to somebody who shared our last podcast.
02:25: And Liam's going to help me with drawing out the names. Liam, can you go ahead and pick?
02:30: You've got to pick one. Just pick one, okay? Don't pick up two because then we'll be in trouble. Oh, you picked up two.
02:36: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Alright. So here, close your eyes. Put one of them back in.
02:45: Alright. Alright, so that's the one you're drawing out. He can't read, by the way.
02:50: And I can't see it yet. Okay, so. Alright, so these books are going to be going to Ryan Dozier.
03:05: That's perfect. Alright, so congratulations to Ryan. You are the winner.
03:12: And sorry to everybody else, but you know. God's sovereign, so. Let's just be happy for Ryan.
03:20: In light of God's sovereignty, he won. So, Ryan, maybe you need this, man.
03:25: Maybe you need these books. Now, Ryan's a good guy. He's already very familiar with Clark. I know that he calls himself a
03:32: Clarktillion. Or maybe a Framond.
03:39: Because I think he holds to Robert Raymond and John Frame's views.
03:47: So, anyways, Ryan, congratulations. And, again, thank you to everybody else. Sorry, Andre Rapchaput.
03:54: You did not win. Alright. Alright, thanks guys. Bye. I do a podcast.
04:04: I'm not interested in your podcast. Folks, these are wolves.
04:11: Truth be told, I oftentimes lay awake at night trying to figure out how I can get rid of wolves in the church.
04:23: We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so the next few statements that I'm going to make,
04:29: I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillion toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.
04:36: We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style. I would first say that to characterize what we do as fashion is itself fashion.
04:56: It's not hate. It's history. It's not fashion. It's the Bible. Jesus said, woe to you when men speak well of you.
05:07: For their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way. As opposed to, blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.
05:20: It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. Alright. Welcome everybody.
05:30: This is Simple Riff around the radio. My name is Tim and I am here with my other co -host Carlos Montijo. I think
05:36: Joseph was supposed to be here. He got the memo but I don't know what happened to him so he may pop in and we're hoping he does.
05:50: If he doesn't then, well, that's fine. So, Carlos, what do you think of the new intro that I put together?
05:58: Yeah, that's like the rebirth of Simple Riff around the radio. It is awesome.
06:04: It's like inspirational music for me. Hopefully people liked it and enjoy it.
06:10: Obviously, it's polarizing, needless to say, but that's what we do here. We just try to draw the line where we see it drawn in the
06:18: Bible and tell people the side that God is on. I know we have a lot to catch up on and there's just a lot of,
06:29: I think this might be a little bit of a catch -all episode. The reason I mentioned it was kind of like a rebirth episode is because we kind of started off a little late.
06:39: When we started doing Simple Riff for Manda, we just sort of started guns blazing, doing shows right away without really defining who we are.
06:50: I think we're finally starting to do that more clearly now, ever since the last episode especially.
06:56: I think this one as well because we're going to take a very strong stand against Hank Hanegraaff's decision to apostatize from Christianity.
07:10: I'm looking forward to the discussion and we're going to talk about a lot of some pretty controversial stuff, so stay tuned.
07:18: Yeah, I'm kind of nervous about this episode because we're jumping in the fire.
07:26: Let me also mention this, you recently published an article on the
07:31: Web Thumping Wingnut Facebook webpage that I sort of want you to talk about.
07:38: It has to do with the shack and I've never read the shack. I don't know anything about it.
07:45: I've read your article, but go ahead and tell us a little bit about that. I want to encourage people to check out that article if you have friends who are still endorsing the shack.
07:54: Or wanting to get some information on it because you actually, from what
08:00: I can see, you actually dig into the content of the shack, the theological content, and give a pretty handed review of it.
08:09: Yeah, so what happened with that review, that's actually, that was adapted, somewhat adapted from a paper
08:20: I wrote back in college, I think in 2010 or something, or around that time.
08:27: And it was for like a religious studies class, and so I got the book, I don't know how
08:32: I got the book, but I read through it and it was just, it was pretty nauseating.
08:40: Just how blasphemous and heretical and it's really hard to have to sit and read through all that.
08:48: But yeah, this is what tends to happen with people who do podcasts or people who like to listen to podcasts.
08:55: What happens a lot of times is that people don't really get into the meat of things and it's very easy to, you just kind of start operating off of hearsay and opinion and you just start giving opinions without really substantiating your claims.
09:11: And so what we like to do at Simple Reform on the Radio is actually provide you quotations, sources, we like to give you the sources and cite them and discuss them so that you can have a well -informed and well -equipped decision.
09:27: And so that's what we decided to do because a lot of the resources that I was seeing are just basically a compilation of other resources and kind of references to other pastors or people critiquing the book.
09:39: But I haven't really seen anything, at least from our network, that's actually trying to get into the book and see what it actually says.
09:49: And so that's what I set out to do. I set out to basically just critique it biblically and provide all of the relevant quotations that I could find that were most troubling or most problematic.
10:01: There was more, I mean there was a lot more, but this was basically about the worst that I could find.
10:07: And so, yeah, it's an awful book. It's an absolutely horrendous book.
10:14: The fact that it markets itself as a Christian book for Christians, or I guess for people who might be curious, it's not necessarily just for Christians, but it's obviously promoting itself as a
10:28: Christian book. And the fact that you have Christians like, well,
10:35: I don't know, professing Christians like Eugene Peterson, the author of the
10:43: Message Bible. You have even Kent Hovind, not somebody who you would expect coming from an independent, fundamentalist,
10:51: King James Only perspective. That's just very odd coming from a perspective like that, that he would endorse that book.
10:57: He said he read it when he was in prison and he liked it. And so there's a lot of CBN, I quote an article from CBN that also endorses the book.
11:07: And so a lot of people are being misled by this and kind of saying, well, it's a good fictional novel.
11:16: It's just fiction, but it's using the story to try to explain certain things about God.
11:23: It's like, well, yeah, that's the problem though, because the way you do that can contradict the
11:29: Bible. And the way he does that in the shack completely blatantly contradicts and disregards the
11:35: Bible. So I encourage people to look at that, take a look at that, so you can find actual quotations from the book.
11:43: I try to quote them in context as much as possible, describing all the different errors and heresies.
11:49: Yeah, but there's all kinds of errors in that book. There's just all kinds of wild heresies that we don't even have names for yet.
11:58: So it's just amazing that we're at the point where a book that's so blatantly blasphemous and heretical calls itself a
12:09: Christian book and Christians actually like it. Back at our old church, we were at a house cleaning sale or something.
12:17: People were getting rid of some books and the shack was there. And one of the elders of the church saw it and he was like, oh, look, it's the shack.
12:25: This was a good book. And I was like, what? That's all he said.
12:32: And so I was pretty shocked that that was all he said. It was a good book. And I was just like, oh, man, that really troubled me.
12:39: I mean, we're no longer at the church anymore. That was just a symptom of the many problems that that church had.
12:46: But yeah, I haven't seen the movie and I don't really plan to, but I'm sure it's not much better.
12:56: So yeah, people need to be careful with that stuff and check out the article. I also have a lot of resources that I refer people to that were very helpful.
13:06: Especially Paul Flynn and what's his name? Michael Yousef. I think he has a good sermon and I think an article exposing some of the heresies in the book as well.
13:18: Yeah, well, going back to the new intro that we have,
13:25: I think that it really defines who we are, like you said. And one of the things that I quoted was you saying that we are polemical and we are polarizing
13:36: Jesus style. And we, of course, are doing this because we care about people.
13:46: And we actually, if you care about the truth and you care about people receiving the truth, then you should have no problem with any of this stuff.
13:56: But today we're going to be talking about Hank Hanegraaff. We're going to be talking about Pulpit and Pen. We're going to be talking about James White.
14:04: And before everybody gets, I can see a lot of people just sitting back in their chairs going, uh oh,
14:10: Semper Reformanda is really going to step in at this time. But let me start off with this.
14:16: We love James White. We love J .D. Hall. We love both of their ministries.
14:23: As a matter of fact, Carlos, you have a lot to owe to James White.
14:30: Because he pulled you out of, God used him to pull you out of the
14:36: King James Onlyism cult when you first became a Christian.
14:41: Is that right? Yeah, well, I'm very deeply indebted to James White.
14:49: He's one of the few people that actually takes the time to actually debate other cults and sub -Christian groups that can really sweep people off their faith very easily.
15:07: Especially new believers and people who are not that familiar with the Bible. I owe
15:13: James White two big things. It's not just the fact that he led me out of King James Onlyism.
15:20: I read his book and it really helped me kind of balance out my extreme views. And he also helped me, introduced me to Calvinism in a positive light.
15:29: Because King James Onlyists typically are very anti -Calvinist.
15:35: And to a large extent, rabidly anti -Calvinist. And so, it was thanks to his ministry that I became a
15:43: Calvinist and a more balanced Christian that is not so, with irrational views of textual criticism.
15:52: So, yeah, we definitely love James White. I listen to, he's one of my favorite podcasts that I listen to.
15:58: I really appreciate his work. Yeah, and the same thing goes for J .D.
16:05: Hall. We very much respect J .D. Hall. He's also a
16:11: Reformed Baptist. And, you know, here's the thing. If you're not disagreeing with somebody somewhere, then you're just probably not being a
16:21: Berean. So, these guys, we hold them in high, high regard.
16:27: Now, we know that there are some disagreements going on between Alpha and Omega Ministries and Pulpit and Pen.
16:33: And some of that has to do with a post that was put up by a guy named
16:40: Tom Buck. Now, here's what I'm going to say about that right now.
16:46: We are not going to talk about that. We are not going to get involved in that.
16:52: There's an important update from, I believe it would be Tom Buck, on April 28th, 2017.
16:59: And hopefully this doesn't change and things continue to go in the direction that they're going by the time that this episode is released.
17:08: But it says, due to recent developments, I will not be commenting in any public forum regarding the situation described in the below post for the time being.
17:19: Circumstances have arisen that give hope for a biblical and godly outcome. So, praise
17:25: God for that. I am requesting that all those involved would also no longer comment on this situation in any public forum, including open or closed groups on Facebook.
17:38: And as we've said before, we think that Facebook can be a nightmare. So, he continues, during this time, any comments made on this site regarding this topic will be deleted by the administrator.
17:50: Thank you and please be in prayer for a godly and peaceful resolution to this difficult situation,
17:58: Tom Buck. So, yeah, it was written by Tom Buck. So, we want to honor that, okay? We want to honor that.
18:04: If you post any comments about that whole situation, we're just going to flat out ignore you.
18:14: We want to honor that. We want to encourage everybody else to pray about the situation. We're very encouraged that, you know,
18:22: Tom said that there's a peaceful resolution underway, that there's hope for that.
18:28: So, that's what we have to say about that. And we're not interested in furthering any gossip.
18:36: We're not interested in being fanboys. Like I said, we would disagree with both of these guys on something.
18:44: And to be honest with you, I am in no position to take either of them on theologically.
18:52: Dr. White would wipe the floor with us, so would JD Hall. So, we have a lot of respect for these guys and that's where we stand.
19:01: But the purpose of this episode is really to just discuss the way that we should view
19:08: Hank Hanegraaff. And we want to sort of come out and stand behind pulpit and pen.
19:15: We've talked about this with the members of our podcast that we agree with the way that pulpit and pen has addressed this issue.
19:23: And I suppose that means that we're going to be sticking our neck out there, but we're provoked by everything that we've seen with Hank Hanegraaff.
19:32: And as a matter of fact, I'll admit, I heard about the whole situation through the article that Jeff Maples wrote.
19:39: I had no idea that any of this was underway, that any of this was going on. I stopped listening to the
19:45: Bible Answer Man a couple of years ago and that was just simply because of my job.
19:52: I go in at an odd time and so the radio station that... I don't have a radio at home, an
19:58: AM FM radio at home. Believe it or not, I just listen to stuff online. And if I'm not in my car, then
20:06: I'm missing it. And I'm just, you know, because of my job and the hours that I go in, I'm just never in the car when the
20:13: Bible Answer Man comes on the radio. But since then, I've been kind of following it and I've seen a lot of Christians sort of buckle under the task of being polemical.
20:30: And it's surprised me that Pulpit and Pen has taken so much heat for the
20:36: Hank Hanegraaff stuff. And so, okay, so first let's do this.
20:42: Hank Hanegraaff has come out and written an article and he read this article on his show, you know,
20:48: Have I Left the Christian Faith? And so let me read some points from the article and then...
20:55: or as a matter of fact, if you would like to read this article, that would be helpful. And then I will play a couple of clips from Hank Hanegraaff.
21:03: Because as a lot of people know, I did call into the show and I asked him about the doctrine of justification by faith alone, if he held to it.
21:13: He cut me off. I got really nervous, like I said before, because I was thinking this is national radio, it's live, and I have no control over this conversation.
21:25: And so I started rambling, I was trying to get everything out. I asked him if I could respond to him after he said something.
21:32: Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Naive me, he just cut me off and didn't even answer my question.
21:41: And James White pointed out that it's an up or down question. Do you hold to the doctrine of justification by faith alone?
21:48: It's an up or down question. Let me just say this. We don't want to rehash everything that's already been said.
21:55: We want to sort of come at this from a different angle. And we're going to be reading an article from the
22:01: Trinity Foundation titled, Why Heretics Win Battles. And what we want to do is we want to just talk about how we think that Christians should respond to a situation like this.
22:13: So Carlos, are you with me on that? Is that pretty much the goal of what we're doing here? Yeah, exactly.
22:21: Okay, yeah. So let's go ahead and read the article. You know what, did you pull up the show notes?
22:28: Because I can just read it myself. I'll read it. So Hank Kendergraft posted something, and here's what he said.
22:35: Through Christian Research Institute staff and friends, I've become aware of the chatter on the internet, the gist of which is that I've walked away from the
22:42: Christian faith. Amid holy week, I pray that those forwarding this notion may have an ever deeper encounter with our crucified and resurrected
22:49: Lord. May they and their loved ones be blessed and their faith strengthened. If I have caused any to stumble,
22:54: I humbly ask forgiveness. My purpose in this post is not so much to respond, but to reassure.
23:01: As I have never been more in love with my wife and family, so too I have never been more in love with the
23:07: Lord Jesus and his body, the Church. As such, I confess my faith in the deity of Jesus Christ, the only begotten
23:13: Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the
23:20: Father, through whom all things were made. I believe that's the Nicene Creed or one of the historic creeds.
23:28: I affirm the doctrine of original sin. Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because of all sin,
23:36: Romans 5 .12. I am deeply committed to the Church of the Living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, 1
23:42: Timothy 3 .15, and to the Holy Scriptures, the only infallible repository of redemptive revelation, 2
23:48: Timothy 3 .15 -16. I love the Holy Trinity, one God revealed in three persons, eternally distinct.
23:55: I am deeply grateful that the true and living God invites us to participate in the loving relationships that the
24:01: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have enjoyed throughout eternity. I hold the glorious reality that Jesus rose on the third day according to the
24:07: Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. I am grateful to the Lord Jesus, who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the
24:16: Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary, and became man. That's another historic creed,
24:22: I think. I thank God daily that I am a new creation in Christ, for by grace I have been saved through faith, and that not of myself it is a gift of God, not of works, lest I should boast.
24:31: For we are His workmanship, and created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
24:36: God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2 .8 -10. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come.
24:44: While there are many secondary issues, genuine believers will continue to debate this side of eternity. I have and will always champion what
24:51: C .S. Lewis called mere Christianity, in essentials unity, non -essentials liberty, and in all things charity.
24:57: Hank Hanegraaff, Holy Week 2017. Alright, well thank you for reading that.
25:03: Now, it sounds like, the last point, I thank God daily that I am a new creation in Christ, and then it sounds like he's rejecting that works have anything to do with our salvation.
25:19: He says, for by grace I have been saved through faith, and that not of myself it is a gift of God, not of works, lest I should boast.
25:28: Then he quotes Ephesians 2 .8 -10. Let me go ahead and play a couple of clips from recent episodes within the last few weeks of Hank Hanegraaff, and we can just talk about this afterwards.
25:44: Let me go ahead and play these clips. I want to mention just a few things before we go to our callers again.
25:52: The number 888 -ASK -HANK. The first of which is that many are, by God's grace, joining
25:59: CRI's support team. So today I personalized copies of the Complete Bible Answer book and other books that I've written to people like Deanna in Issaquah, Washington, who is giving $10 a month.
26:13: And David in Westlake, Michigan, who's giving $25 a month.
26:19: And Mary in Glenshaw, Pennsylvania, $50 a month. And Amber in Nebraska, $50 a month.
26:27: Mary in Kansas, $20 a month. Lori in Kansas, $50 a month.
26:34: And the list goes on. My apologies for excluding, in the sake of or in the interest of time, many of those who are joining
26:43: CRI's monthly support team. And when you do, of course, what I do is I… All right, so let me just go ahead and comment on why
26:51: I played that. You know, he's just talking about his supporters. Because a lot of people, in talking about Hank Hanegraaff, they're talking about being charitable.
27:00: They're talking about they're concerned for Hank. But we should also be concerned about the fact that Hank has a platform.
27:09: And we should also be concerned about all of those people that he just mentioned.
27:15: And not only those people. I mean, obviously, those people are devoted to him if they are supporting his ministry financially.
27:22: But he does have a national radio program. And, you know, he's listing off, you know,
27:29: Diana, Amber, Mary twice, two Marys, Lori. So, you know, we're concerned about Hank.
27:38: But we're also concerned about the people that he is quite possibly leading astray.
27:47: The people that he is feeding false doctrine to.
27:53: That he's directing towards Roman Catholicism or he's directing towards Eastern Orthodoxy.
28:00: Because he affirms Roman Catholicism as a system. He affirms Roman Catholicism as a true manifestation of Christianity.
28:10: And that is unbelievably problematic. So let's go ahead and continue with that.
28:17: You know, I hope that everybody can just bear with that. Because that was to illustrate, look, it's not just about Hank. And, you know,
28:24: I believe Todd Friel, in his critique, he did say, you know, to call the radio stations and voice your concern or something like that.
28:34: So, I mean, people are, I'm sure, concerned about this. But when
28:39: I think about a false teacher or somebody who's directing somebody to a false teacher and has a major platform.
28:45: In my mind, I'm always thinking, first and foremost, about those people that are being deceived.
28:53: And that are maybe just unfamiliar with these things or, you know, new
29:00: Christians or whatever. And they are being deceived and they are being pointed in the direction of Rome. They are being pointed into the direction of something like Greek Orthodoxy.
29:10: Because I've done a radio show talking about my family. I have a lot of family members who are
29:17: Roman Catholic. Carlos and I live in a city that is saturated with false teaching, false doctrine.
29:23: And this has the potential to deceive thousands and thousands of people.
29:30: And so, like Carlos said, you know, in the introduction to our show, you know, it's time to battle.
29:37: The gloves are coming off. It's time to battle. And we're battling for truth. And I do care about Hank Hanegraaff.
29:45: I am concerned about him. But I don't hold him as one who's ignorant. Obviously, I think that he did get duped, but I don't think that he's innocent in this.
29:54: I don't think that he's ignorant. So let's finish playing that clip. I want to start the program with something, and then again, we'll go right to your calls,
30:03: AAA to Ask Hank. And that has to do with salvation. I've been asked a lot with respect to works and faith.
30:15: How are we supposed to view this? I talked about the Eastern Orthodox tradition.
30:21: They don't see a dichotomy between faith and works. But I thought it might be important for me to go back to what the
30:29: Bible says. Particularly to what James says when he teaches that we are saved not by works, but by the kind of faith that produces good works.
30:43: You remember his infamous words. I mean, they're words that some have taken to be very, very bad words.
30:53: Some have called this an epistle of straw because of these words. But James says, what good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?
31:06: Can such faith save him? Of course, the answer is an emphatic no.
31:14: Because as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
31:22: Now, you might think that these are my words. No, these are simply the reiteration of the words of James.
31:31: I think it's verse 26. And then when he says that a person is not justified by faith alone, what he's meaning to communicate is that a person is not justified by mental assent alone.
31:44: And therefore he says, show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what
31:52: I do. You believe that there is one God? Well, good for you. Even the demons believe that and they shudder.
32:00: In other words, what James is saying here is that demons believe in the sense of giving mental assent to the fact that there is only one true
32:08: God, and all the while they fail to place their hope and trust in him. To cash that out a little bit, remember that true saving faith is not only having knowledge or agreeing that the knowledge that you have is correct, but it is trusting in Jesus Christ alone, becoming an active participant in the kingdom of Jesus Christ.
32:32: And while James said that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone, and then you read
32:40: Paul saying that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law, you don't have to for a moment think that their words are in some kind of conflict.
32:51: These words are in complete harmony. James was countering the false assertion that a said faith is a substitute.
33:04: He's countering this false assertion, and I want to make real emphasis on that word false.
33:13: That's the operative word. He's countering the false assertion that a said faith is a substitute for a saving faith.
33:22: And while Paul was countering, on the other hand, the equally fallacious notion that salvation can be earned by observing the law.
33:31: And remember, even the reformers used to say that justification is not by faith alone.
33:40: Excuse me, they said that justification is by faith alone, but not by the kind of faith that is alone.
33:47: A little mantra sometimes gets mixed up in my mind, but again, the reformers used to say justification is by faith alone, but again, not by the kind of faith that is alone.
34:06: There's a whole lot more that could be said. You know, when we talk about sola fide as a technical theological term, it assumes a whole litany of concepts, kind of like the
34:17: Trinity. So we don't want to speak in a way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
34:23: We want to speak in a way that's thoroughly biblical, test all things in light of Scripture, hold fast to that which is good.
34:33: Okay, so basically, as you heard, he said that he was asked to speak on the doctrine of salvation and justification by faith alone.
34:46: And so, from what it sounds like, he is affirming the
34:52: Protestant Christian position. I think that he got some things wrong in what he said, but Carlos, do you have any thoughts on any of that?
35:07: Yeah, well, what actually struck me more was what I read earlier, because he's very clearly holding to a sound understanding of the gospel.
35:21: He has some misguided notions about, he's using a lot of misguided notions about the definition of faith and things like that, the concept of mere
35:34: Christianity, which we've criticized a lot in a few of our episodes, in order to justify his position or his joining the
35:43: Greek Orthodox Church. But I can see why this is a difficult situation, because this is the first time
35:50: I read this, and he's being very clear, at least he's making it very clear that he's professing to believe in justification by faith alone and so on and so forth.
35:59: So, that does complicate things a little bit more, even though the fact that he's saying this bare mental assent, or however he phrased it, and this concept of mere
36:11: Christianity will eventually lead to his downfall, if he keeps going in that direction, because, again, that's why, and I've brought this up before, when
36:22: C .S. Lewis wrote Mere Christianity, he did not exclude the Roman Catholic Church, he included the
36:29: Roman Catholic Church in there, because mere Christianity for him, according to him, and according to even the historic creeds, do not include a definition, a biblical definition of justification by faith alone.
36:41: And so, that's just one of the many problems with those, you know, holding to this mere
36:48: Christianity and just sort of this bare, minimal set of doctrines from the early historic creeds.
36:55: Those early historic creeds, a lot of those are so vague and general that they're really not useful.
37:04: They're not useful for much of anything if you're talking about defining
37:10: Christianity, because they're so minimal that the Roman Catholic Church affirms them.
37:17: And as Protestants, we rightly identify the Roman Catholic Church as an apostate institution that has condemned itself by condemning the
37:26: Gospel officially in the Council of Trent. And so, that's a very dangerous position that he is putting himself in.
37:36: It sounds like he's going to start speaking out of both, you know, with a forked tongue, because it's like he's trying, he's essentially trying to have his cake and eat it too.
37:48: And this is, it's impossible. You can't serve two masters and you can't, you can't be, you can't join an institution or a church that does not affirm what he claims to affirm, because they don't hold to that.
38:00: And it's funny, because I just looked at the website for the church that he joined, and they have no, no statement of faith.
38:07: They have nothing on here that indicates what they believe. I mean, it's just, so, but I did find something else that I was going to read, but I guess we can talk about it later.
38:20: Were you going to play something else? Yeah, I did want to say a little bit more about that, because, you know, one of the things that I want to point out, one of the things that I want to try to illustrate is that many times, somebody who affirms an organization or institution that we would say is
38:36: Antichrist, that we would say is blasphemous, that we would say is not Christian, but heretical, will also say things that are very correct.
38:43: And it's, it's very difficult to, to nail them down on where they actually stand.
38:51: And we hear, we hear people who identify themselves in these organizations say things that sound very, very
39:00: Christian and very right. So I want to play another clip for you, Carlos, and this is just to illustrate a point that we need to, we need to take this a little bit further.
39:12: We need to, we can't just leave this here. We can't just, we cannot be satisfied with what we just heard.
39:19: And let me go ahead and play this. This is Glenn Beck. This is, he did a Facebook live video.
39:25: And I just want to play a little portion of it. He's talking about how his kids were not accepted into a
39:32: Christian school. And let me go ahead and play this for you, okay? I just got a call from my wife.
39:44: I'm just about to have lunch in the dressing room before we do a show today. My wife called and said, well, the school that we had our kids ready to enroll in, that we were very excited about, has just called and said that they're not allowed to join.
40:07: They just think it's for the best because they don't know what other parents will say. And, you know, they just really can't have any
40:16: Mormons in this Christian school. And we've already gone through this once with another school.
40:22: And I excused that other school because it was a covenant Christian school.
40:29: And so the covenant is with the church of each child.
40:35: And I was fine with that because it made sense. It was hurtful and we were upset about it.
40:45: But I could deal with it. This school we went to, and I talked to the headmaster,
40:53: I talked to the founder and the headmaster, and they said, oh my gosh, no, we wouldn't take a
41:01: Buddhist because the foundational, it is just too different. And we think we would confuse the child, but a
41:10: Jewish child we would take, you know, people of all Christian faiths.
41:17: But apparently Mormons just aren't Christian enough. And I am sick and tired of this.
41:28: I mean, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
41:36: By his grace, I have been saved. I said to them at both places, and by the way, the one that just called us said it wasn't a problem, until it started getting out that my children would be joining apparently.
41:54: And then the, I guess the bigots came out of the woodwork to say, oh no, you can't, no, that's too controversial.
42:04: I know, it's almost 1946, you know. So obviously he's trying to affirm that Mormonism is
42:13: Christianity. He's very offended. If you disagree with that, then you're a bigot. Well, I guess
42:19: I'm a bigot because I very much disagree with that. It's not Christian. And then he says, you know,
42:26: I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and that I'm saved by grace. And you hear that and you say, well, that sounds
42:34: Christian. So just simply because it's an enigma that Hank Hanegraaff would join the
42:44: Greek Orthodox Church and then still say all the right things.
42:50: And you see this happen all the time with Mormons. They will say the right things to you. And you start digging a little bit deeper and you start saying, well, yeah, but your church teaches this.
43:01: You know, your church teaches that you can become a god. And you start holding them to the organization that they are identifying themselves with and then it becomes problematic and you find that the two are completely incompatible, that they're contradictory and that they can't be reconciled.
43:21: And so we hear a lot of people saying that Greek Orthodoxy is not monolithic.
43:29: Which is to say that you can't put everybody in the same basket. You can't paint them with a broad brush.
43:35: It's not monolithic. There's different versions. There's different branches of Eastern Orthodoxy.
43:44: But the problem that I'm having, Carlos, and you can comment on this, is that that point is irrelevant because I can't find any
43:54: Greek Orthodox organization, institution, branch, whatever you want to call it,
44:00: I can't find any that hold to the doctrine of justification by faith alone or sola scriptura or substitutionary atonement.
44:09: And so if they're not holding to the doctrine of justification by faith alone, it doesn't matter if there's ten different versions of the same heretical group.
44:17: There's different branches of Mormonism. Some Mormon groups still believe that you can have multiple wives.
44:24: Other Mormon groups deny that. That stupid show on TLC a couple of years ago,
44:32: Sister Wives, where this guy was a polygamist. He was Mormon. And a lot of Mormon branches, a lot of Mormons came out against that show because it showed them in a negative light.
44:43: So my thinking is, okay, so it's not monolithic. But I don't know of any group that holds to these things.
44:52: So at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if there's just different groups of the same heresy.
45:02: Do you have anything to add to that or comment on? Yeah. So the issue, to me, this is a little bit more difficult because I did not know that Hank Hanegraaff had made that statement.
45:25: But yeah, it's a similar problem to what Glenn Beck is doing. It doesn't really matter what you believe.
45:32: If your institution is anti -Christ or it's against Scripture, it rejects the biblical gospel, primary issues of the
45:41: Bible, such as salvation and the doctrines of God and salvation and man, then you are a walking contradiction.
45:54: You can't have it both ways. You can't call yourself a Mormon and say that you're Christian because Mormons deny the gospel, the biblical gospel.
46:03: Let me jump in here because you said it doesn't matter what you believe. I think you meant to say it doesn't matter what you profess to believe.
46:12: No, my point was, to be clear, my point was not that.
46:18: Of course it matters what you believe, but the point is that you can call yourself a Mormon and say that you're
46:25: Christian and claim that you believe in the gospel, just because you believe that does not mean that that does not validate the
46:33: Mormon Church. You do not speak for the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church has its historic documents and it has its living prophets or whatever, which that itself is a contradiction, is against Scripture.
46:48: But Hank Hanegraaff does not define Greek Orthodoxy. He doesn't get to do that.
46:53: And so he can claim to be a Christian who believes in the biblical gospel all he wants, but by joining an anti -Christian institution that does not affirm the biblical gospel by all evidences, as far as we're able to tell, and historically that has been the case, they have more in common with Roman Catholicism than they do with Protestants.
47:18: Not to say that they're identical because they're not, but this is not something that is possible.
47:28: Hank Hanegraaff right now is a walking contradiction because he's joining an institution that claims, that actually attacks the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
47:38: They don't hold to it. And we asked, we also, we were trying to get Owen Pond to come onto the show, but you were at least able to ask, he couldn't make it, but you were able to ask him if there's any branch or flavor of Eastern Orthodoxy that he's familiar with that holds to a biblical gospel, and he said no.
47:59: They're all pretty much works based. And so there's a huge problem with what
48:08: Hank Hanegraaff is doing. And I've had prior discussions with Tim Coffman and with respect to Keller, and I remember we were discussing
48:18: Eastern Orthodoxy at one point, and they also, from what he was telling me, they deny the doctrine of Original Sin, which
48:29: Hank Hanegraaff was affirming. He deliberately affirmed in the statement that he made. So you can't have your cake and eat it.
48:37: There's no way. It's just, you are, not only is
48:42: Hank Hanegraaff, his position as the Bible Answer Man, as a teacher of the church, he's put himself on a platform and is recognized as a teacher of the church, that he is now becoming an enabler, a validator of a
48:59: Christian cult, of a false church that is not
49:05: Christian. And so the problem is now that he can claim to believe the truth all he wants, but what he's doing is completely out of line with what the
49:20: Bible commands us to do. And so he has a very serious problem, and in doing so he's misleading people and he's deceiving them into making them think that the
49:37: Greek Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox tradition is sound when it's not.
49:45: Yes, let me jump in there, because that is exactly what he's doing. And we often times, this is what everybody needs to get.
49:54: It is very common for cults and heretical groups to redefine their terms.
50:03: And I recently put up just a little thing on the
50:09: Bible Thumping Wingnut Facebook page, and I just basically made the comment that cults will try to redefine their terms and not tell you about it.
50:18: That happens every single time. And so what we see is that guys like Glenn Beck, who are
50:23: Mormon, are trying to redefine Christianity. They're trying to redefine what it means to be a
50:31: Christian so that it encompasses Mormonism. And he's very upset, he's hurt.
50:38: He has hurt feelings, guys, because we're not willing to affirm him as a
50:44: Christian. Well, no, I'm not. I'm not going to be bent into thinking,
50:55: I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, because at the end of the day, that's not really what my ultimate goal is.
51:01: I mean, it sucks that he got his feelings hurt. Okay, well, that's fine. But this is a matter of life and death.
51:09: This is a matter of heaven or hell. And so what I think is happening is that Hank Hanegraaff is redefining or is trying to redefine
51:21: Christianity. He's trying to redefine
51:26: Christianity that includes Greek Orthodoxy. Because people want to say that Greek Orthodoxy is not monolithic and you can't paint it with a broad brush.
51:41: Well, okay, has Hank Hanegraaff come out against any versions of Greek Orthodoxy that he would deem heretical?
51:48: No, he includes all of them. So he's painting Greek Orthodoxy with a broad brush as Christian.
51:55: He's doing the same thing with Roman Catholicism. So Carlos, let me go ahead and play another clip.
52:01: Because in this clip, let me see if I got the right one. But I believe that this clip is a clip of somebody who, let me see if I can pull up the question.
52:16: While you look for that, I was just going to say that this just made me kind of realize that the way this has been framed is a little bit off from what
52:27: I can tell. Because I don't think the problem is that Hank Hanegraaff is trying to redefine
52:34: Christianity to include Greek Orthodoxy or Orthodoxy in general. I think the problem is that he's trying to redefine
52:41: Orthodoxy to make them Christian by virtue of the fact that he is claiming to hold to the
52:50: Protestant understanding of these doctrines when they don't. And so this is a very dangerous situation.
52:58: But yeah, we can talk about it more after you play the clip. Yeah, so I believe that this clip is a clip of somebody who is asking about leaving the
53:13: Catholic Church to join the Greek Orthodox Church. And that's pretty much the conversation that takes place.
53:21: So let me go ahead and play it. But I think before I talk about Roman Catholicism at all, and I haven't done this as often as I should, but I ought to underscore the fact that some of the finest apologists in the
53:36: Christian faith are Roman Catholic. I think about Dr. J. Richards or Dr.
53:42: Frank Beckwith. Many others immediately come to mind. The list could take the rest of the program.
53:48: But these are fine, fine men in terms of life and in terms of being genuine believers and defenders of the faith.
53:59: The other thing I think that's important to recognize is that Roman Catholicism, like Orthodoxy, is not monolithic.
54:08: And I think that is often lost in the discussion about either one of them.
54:15: And of course you could say that about Lutherans as well. And you have the Missouri Synod Lutherans, you have the
54:20: ELC. There are many varieties of Lutherans and there are many varieties of Reformed.
54:28: I personally grew up in the Christian Reformed Church. And given that there are certain differences that we keep in mind, what
54:39: I have continued to forward on the broadcast is not meant to be demeaning.
54:46: It is meant to simply forthrightly communicate major differences, and you mentioned one of them.
54:53: I don't think that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra that he's infallible.
55:01: Many Catholics do. And you know, when the Pope spoke from St.
55:07: Peter's Chair and defined the Immaculate Conception, Orthodox people, of course, recoiled from that.
55:16: I don't hold to purgatory. But I also think that it is wise for us to be charitable.
55:24: In other words, Jesus said, you know, before we look at the speck in someone else's eye, let's look at the beam in our own eye.
55:34: And you think about Evangelical Christians, wonderful brothers and sisters in the
55:41: Lord, many of whom are dear friends of mine. They will hold that there's going to be a millennial temple and Jesus is going to preside over that temple, and the sacrifices that he presides over are going to be efficacious for ceremonial uncleanness.
56:00: Well, by logical extension, that seems to me to deny the sufficiency of Christ's Atonement on the cross.
56:07: But I think it would be less than charitable to draw everything out to its logical extension.
56:17: And so I think in these discussions there has to be light instead of heat.
56:24: There has to be a collegiality that oftentimes is missing. And I will say, to the extent that I have not been humble and contrite in my own remarks,
56:34: I would seek forgiveness as well. So what's the bottom line for me?
56:41: The bottom line for me is that the Roman Catholic Church, and this is not a unique statement, it's something that I have said for many, many years,
56:50: I think it is a true church. I think it has significant air, which of course, as I just mentioned, could be said about other bodies of believers.
57:02: But we also have to remember the incredible work the Roman Catholic Church has done on common cause issues like abortion.
57:13: Thank God for their unfailing stand in this regard.
57:20: So if I were talking to your wife, first of all, I'd do it with gentleness and with respect. I wouldn't force anything upon your wife.
57:28: But if you have the kind of relationship that my wife and I enjoy, we can talk about these things.
57:34: And I think the big thing you want to get straight in your conversation is that you're on the same page when it comes to essentials.
57:43: Now when I just made my statement at the beginning of the broadcast, that's what I attempted to do. I attempted to talk about essentials like the deity of Jesus Christ, original sin, the canon in the church, the
57:59: Trinity and the resurrection, the incarnation and the fact that we are, as Paul puts it, new creations in Christ, and then the fact that Jesus Christ will come again.
58:10: How the details unfold, there are discussions about that amongst Christians, but that's something we can debate vigorously.
58:19: Iron sharpens iron. That was pretty dumbfounding.
58:25: Right, right. So this was a caller who was calling in asking about, basically the situation was, he was wanting to leave the
58:37: Catholic Church to go to Greek Orthodoxy, but his wife wasn't convinced and was having issues.
58:49: She believed in papal infallibility and stuff like that, so she wasn't convinced.
58:56: So this guy was calling to get advice on leaving the
59:01: Catholic Church to go to Greek Orthodoxy. Now, was there any attempt to warn this individual?
59:11: Well, Hank Hanegraaff is painting Greek Orthodoxy with a broad brush and affirming all of it.
59:20: And so, this is the problem that I have with Hank Hanegraaff.
59:28: And it gets me angry, because as someone who has come out of the
59:33: Roman Catholic faith, someone who still has a lot of family members who are in Roman Catholicism, I despise the system that is
59:44: Roman Catholic. I despise it, I hate it, because it is going to lead many, many, many people straight to hell.
59:53: It's a false anti -Christ system. As I've come out of it,
59:59: I actually, we're hoping to do some podcasts on eschatology in the future with Tim Coffman.
01:00:07: I believe, I hold to what the Reformers held and believe that the papacy is anti -Christ.
01:00:15: And we'll explain that in a future episode. But, folks,
01:00:20: I mean, this is a matter of life and death. And so, here we have Hank Hanegraaff saying some very contradictory things.
01:00:27: So, he is saying the right things to the people that are calling him out, to the people that are criticizing him.
01:00:36: And we see Tim Keller did the same thing. We pointed this out in one of our episodes, is that Tim Keller, in front of one group, affirms that Adam and Eve were literal.
01:00:48: And then, in front of another group, affirms that they weren't. And so,
01:00:55: Carlos, you were kind of throwing out some comments throughout that.
01:01:01: What are your thoughts? Well, I remember, I actually remember listening to the last part of that clip on James White's podcast.
01:01:10: But it's funny, because I forgot about it. And he actually just proved my point. The point that I was making earlier, that we've made on previous shows, is that if you hold to mere
01:01:20: Christianity, then you're going to include Roman Catholicism. And, by extension, in probably most cases,
01:01:31: Orthodoxy as well. And so, this is an absolute, total mess.
01:01:38: He is all over the place. And, at first, I was thinking, like, okay, well, you know, he's trying to have his cake and eat it, because he made a profession of faith that was very clearly
01:01:52: Protestant. And now, he says, and this is one thing that James White was calling out, or he was criticizing
01:02:00: Hank for, because he said that, no, that's not true. He used to, he's had
01:02:06: James White on the show debating against Roman Catholics, or, you know, giving presentations about how
01:02:13: Roman Catholicism is a false church. Because it's based on a false, it has false teaching on the
01:02:20: Gospel and on primary issues. And so, he is a total mess.
01:02:26: I mean, to say that the Roman Catholic Church is a true institution is a complete revolt against, you might as well give the
01:02:35: Pope an apology, and apologize on behalf of the entire Protestant Reformation. That is unbelievable for him to say that.
01:02:44: And to try to hold to, it's just so ironic. It's like, where do you even start with this guy? Because he's trying to affirm a
01:02:51: Protestant understanding of these doctrines, and yet, he is claiming that the Roman Catholic Church is a true institution, and yet, ironic, well, deliberately,
01:03:01: I think, left out the doctrine of justification by faith alone, because that would obviously point out why we are not in line with each other, why we are not, why the
01:03:14: Roman Catholic Church is not a biblical church, or a sound institution. And so, it's just unbelievable.
01:03:21: And for him to commend the Roman Catholic Church for the abortion work that they've done, it's just so funny how, it's like you're just blowing smoke and mirrors, you know?
01:03:32: It's like, it's unbelievable how you're going to say that, and just sort of overlook the fact that, like, okay, well, the pedophilia?
01:03:39: I mean, what about the pedophilia? What about all the homosexuality that's rampant among priests and the pedophile rings?
01:03:45: I mean, there's pedophile rings that involve, like, Roman Catholic priests and all this kind of stuff.
01:03:51: The level of corruption is just unspeakable. And that is why the
01:03:57: Protestant Reformers and Protestants, historically, have always and unanimously pointed the finger at the papacy as the
01:04:04: Antichrist. The papacy is the seat of Satan. And so, why do we say that?
01:04:11: Because, again, they have formally and officially denounced the biblical gospel of justification by faith alone, that we are not justified by works but by faith alone in Christ alone.
01:04:24: And therefore, they anathematized the Reformers and their gospel, and so they have made themselves anathema in doing so.
01:04:35: And so, this is just a complete mess. And people need to stay away from him. Especially people who don't have a firm understanding of the history behind this, about the history between Protestantism and Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
01:04:48: A lot of people are not aware about Orthodoxy, but really, he is extremely volatile.
01:04:55: I mean, this guy is just all over the map. And people really need to keep this in mind because, originally,
01:05:03: I was thinking, okay, well, he's making a Protestant affirmation of these doctrines, of the gospel and of salvation, but then, you can't do that and call the
01:05:15: Roman Catholic Church a true church. And there's the issue because now you have a problem where he's trying to include
01:05:26: Orthodoxy in the Roman Catholic Church, but the issue becomes now that he's not ignorant.
01:05:36: He is not ignorant of these things. He has no excuse. He's been the Bible Answer Man for how many decades?
01:05:41: I mean, for decades, I'm sure. And he has an apologetics ministry dedicated to critiquing cults and false religions from a biblical perspective.
01:05:55: And that is why he also used to formally denounce the Orthodox Church as a cult, which
01:06:02: J .D. Hall has done a very good job of pointing that out. So we recommend that you check out J .D. Hall's episodes and his articles because he's pointed that out.
01:06:09: And, of course, after they pointed that out, then they took it down. The Christian Research Institute took it down from their website.
01:06:16: But now he's trying to claim that he still has a Protestant understanding of these doctrines.
01:06:21: And he's joining the church that he used to denounce as a cult.
01:06:27: That is very clearly showing you that you cannot have it both ways. And it's also why Rob Dreher, the author of the
01:06:34: Benedict Option, who was a Roman Catholic, joined the Orthodox Church.
01:06:40: And it was basically like it wasn't that much of a difference. That shows very clearly that he is a walking contradiction.
01:06:51: And he needs to be denounced for all practical purposes as an apostate because he can claim whatever he wants.
01:06:57: Again, he can claim whatever he wants to believe. And maybe he does. I don't know how he does it because you can't.
01:07:05: You just can't have it both ways. Well, let me jump in here. I love that you just went on a rant.
01:07:12: First of all, let me let our listeners know that Joseph is now in the house. I know that he got off work late.
01:07:21: So that was the reason that he couldn't join us earlier. But let me let
01:07:26: Joseph just say hello. How's it going everyone? Hey man, are you tired or what? Only a little.
01:07:33: I don't get tired. Well, feel free to jump in. Carlos just went on a beautiful, beautiful rant.
01:07:42: And I'm also very glad to see that you're growing out the beard again. It looks good on you, brother.
01:07:48: Thanks. I believe it's here to stay this time. Yeah. I feel bad about that.
01:07:56: I'm actually a poser because on my Facebook profile I have the picture of me with a beard that I grew out while I was on maternity leave.
01:08:07: Because I miss it so much. But for my job I can't actually have a beard.
01:08:13: I can have a mustache but it doesn't look good on me. I got to do the full beard thing.
01:08:21: My day is off. I always grow it out and when I go back to work I have to shave it. So Carlos, good job on that rant.
01:08:31: I'm really glad to hear all of the things that you said. One of the things that I wanted to point out is that Hank continually says that the
01:08:40: Roman Catholics, and he would include Greek Orthodoxy obviously, hold to the essentials, right?
01:08:48: So what is he saying when he affirms them as Christians and he says that they hold to the essentials but he knows very well that they differ on the doctrine of justification.
01:08:59: Obviously, he does not consider the doctrine of justification by faith alone an essential.
01:09:08: Which just boggles the mind. Makes no sense. Yeah, because the doctrine of justification by faith alone was so essential to the
01:09:20: Protestant Reformation. Basically, that doctrine is saying it is by faith alone, in Christ alone, that you are saved.
01:09:30: And so if you deviate from that, the word alone is super important.
01:09:38: It's not by works. And so, knowing that the Roman Catholic Church holds to a doctrine of justification by faith and works, and Greek Orthodoxy holds to salvation by grace and works and faith and works.
01:09:53: Obviously, he's rejecting Sola Fide. He's rejecting it as,
01:10:01: I'm submitting that he's rejecting it as true. Because in one sense, from what we read earlier, it sounds
01:10:09: Christian, it sounds like he's affirming it, but then he just seemingly throws it out the window to affirm
01:10:18: Roman Catholicism. And again, Carlos, you hit the nail on the head. He is not ignorant.
01:10:25: This is not somebody off the street who's just confused. Or somebody who's a recent convert and is just getting their theology from this and that and everywhere else.
01:10:38: This is a guy who has a ministry dedicated to Christian apologetics.
01:10:44: And we've seen in the past that he's, you know, like you said, that James White pointed out that he's not always held to this position that he used to hold to the
01:10:56: Protestant position. And now he's just flip -flopping like a dirty politician.
01:11:03: So let me, Carlos, let me, and Joseph, let me go ahead and play this last clip. Because this last clip, and James White played this one as well on his podcast.
01:11:15: But there was a caller who called in and basically challenged him on this and said, Hank, Christians and Catholics don't hold to the same set of essentials.
01:11:24: So let me go ahead and play this. Well, let's go back to the phone lines. We'll talk to Jeff.
01:11:30: He's listening in Abilene, Texas, Sirius XM 131. Hi, Jeff. Hello, Hank, how are you, sir?
01:11:38: I'm good, thank you. Thank you. Well, I wanted to thank you for your ministry. You're a very studied, learned man in Scripture.
01:11:48: And I want to first start by saying you are a real blessing to a large number of people around the world.
01:11:56: Hank, there's something that I tend to notice when listening, that you maintain that Protestants and Catholics hold to the essentials of our faith.
01:12:12: But, Hank, that's not true. Catholics do not hold to the core essentials of our faith.
01:12:20: In fact, they do not ascribe to sola fide. And so for that purpose,
01:12:27: I don't think that we can call the Catholic Church a
01:12:34: Christian church, at least not in its orthodoxy. And so when we say things like the
01:12:42: Catholic Church, while they may differ on certain non -essential issues, they do differ on essential issues.
01:12:52: Well, let me simply say I appreciate your call. I've often defined the
01:12:58: Roman Catholic position as best I know how with respect to sola fide. The Roman Catholic Church does not hold to a crass system of works righteousness.
01:13:11: They believe that we are saved by God's grace through faith.
01:13:17: They believe that the faith are infused with works, and those works are meritorious. So this is not a crass system of works righteousness.
01:13:25: We may disagree with Rome on that position when you get to the minutia of how they define faith and how they render the distinction between faith and works.
01:13:40: But this has always been sort of a debate that Western Christians have had.
01:13:48: That Reformation debate in the West raised the question in the Orthodox East, and I think this is something that most people don't know.
01:13:58: In the Orthodox East, they were raising the question, why is there a polarization between faith and works?
01:14:08: We don't know what that's all about, because it had been settled since the apostolic era that salvation was always granted to us by the mercy of God, granted to those who followed
01:14:23: Jesus Christ. This was the mercy of God. They're cooperating.
01:14:29: Their position is such that they cooperate with God's grace. Well, what can a dead man cooperate with?
01:14:35: That's my position. Well, what I'm pointing out, though, is something different. I'm saying in the
01:14:40: East, an opposition of faith versus works was unprecedented. In the
01:14:46: East, they believe that salvation comes through faith in Christ who fulfills the law.
01:14:52: They believe that true faith is not just a decision. It is a way of life. They believe what the scripture teaches.
01:15:00: You see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone, which is to say we cannot add anything to what
01:15:08: Christ has done. Faith by itself, however, if it does not have works, the point is, as James puts it, is dead.
01:15:19: So we are not talking about the idea that somehow or other we can do what
01:15:25: Christ did. However, we are talking about the fact that we need to participate in an active faith, because if we don't, we're demonstrating that the faith that we have is not a real faith.
01:15:37: Now, again, there is a difference between Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox on this position, but I'm out of time for this edition of Bible Instrument and Broadcast.
01:15:44: We'll be back here tomorrow. Hold on. Let me throw something in there. In the last couple of weeks,
01:15:51: I've debated two Roman Catholics at work. The first time
01:15:56: I spoke with you on here, one of the things we talked about is, you know, can you lose your salvation and how that works out, or perseverance, right?
01:16:08: The unfortunate thing is that if you can lose your salvation, you're automatically in a works -based system.
01:16:16: You've already forfeited by faith alone. If you can cause yourself to lose your salvation, you're in a works -based system.
01:16:24: So that's one of their core teachings, is that. Not only that, you know, going through the
01:16:30: Catholic Catechism that I had purchased to look at their view on the sacraments from their point of view.
01:16:38: Baptism is how you enter the life of faith, where Paul says it comes by hearing.
01:16:43: So they're completely diametrically opposed to it being by faith alone.
01:16:50: In so much that if you do the wrong works, if you sin enough, you can lose your salvation, completely ignoring the other part of James.
01:17:00: They love to talk about the part of James where faith without works is dead, and they forget about the part of James where it says, if you break one commandment, you're in the way of all of them.
01:17:08: So if you steal, you're like an adulterer or murderer. He just tried to play verbal judo and shift the conversation so he can say his piece but not actually address the real difference in the
01:17:22: Christian faith and the Roman Catholic apostasy. I am very grateful for Jeff.
01:17:32: Was that his name? I'm very grateful because he pointed out the issue very clearly to him.
01:17:37: This kind of reminds me when Oprah had a show about, you know, she had some mystic on and then this lady jumps up and she starts saying, what about Jesus?
01:17:49: You're saying that all these roles lead to God. I mean, you say that, but the Bible says that Jesus is the only way.
01:17:56: And so it's kind of like he forced him to take a position and Hank tried as much as possible to dodge the actual question.
01:18:06: First he said, well, yeah, he gave a correct view of understanding of the
01:18:13: Roman Catholic view is that they believe that we are initially, well, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that you are initially wiped clean of your original sin through baptism and then you are infused with grace to perform good works, but then the problem becomes that as you sin, you lose that state of grace and you therefore have to, you know, perform the sacraments in order to replace your right standing with God.
01:18:44: And so they don't deny that we're saved by grace. They affirm that, but the problem is that you have to maintain your own salvation through the sacramental system.
01:18:57: And it's funny because Hank was saying that it's not a crass works -righteousness system.
01:19:03: Okay, it's worse. It's a million times worse because it's touting itself as Christianity when it's not.
01:19:12: It's completely anti -Christ. It takes everything that the Bible says and it twists and perverts it into a sacramental system of self -righteousness ultimately.
01:19:23: And so that's ten times worse than the most crass system of works -righteousness that you can ever imagine.
01:19:29: That's exactly the problem with Rome. And so he is being extremely dishonest.
01:19:35: And I really hope that God grants him a stern, fierce rebuke because he is leading so many astray.
01:19:46: He is just volatile. He's in a very bad place and he's in a very volatile position because you cannot logically maintain the position that Hank Canagraph is taking unless you are insane.
01:20:02: It's not going to last long. There's no way that you can claim this without being utterly dishonest or hypocritical or insane.
01:20:16: We grew up Catholic. I don't know if Joseph, you grew up Catholic, but Tim and I grew up Catholic and so I share a lot of the sentiments that Tim has about people who lead you to Rome or who give you a misleading, deceiving understanding of Rome as a true church.
01:20:35: It is a foul lie of the devil himself.
01:20:41: I second that. Carlos, let me just ask you this question because if you listen to the tone with which we are tackling this, it is very different from Todd Friel.
01:20:54: I think I said his name right. Todd Friel and I would even say
01:21:00: James White. Todd Friel said that we need to be charitable. I don't know if I said that right.
01:21:08: You know how Todd Friel talks. That we need to be charitable with him and that we need to be loving and gracious and we're concerned for him.
01:21:18: Yes, I get that. Some would say that we're not speaking with enough grace.
01:21:27: But here's the problem that I have with that. Again, I just want to go back to those people that Hank Hanegraaff mentioned by name who are giving money to his ministry because they believe that he is the
01:21:39: Bible Answer Man and they believe that he is standing on the Word of God when in fact he's not and he's compromising and he's deviating from the
01:21:48: Bible. I want to go back to those people because that's who I'm chiefly concerned about in this whole situation, this whole scenario.
01:21:59: I believe that Hank is deceived himself. I believe that he is, like you said, I mean you'd have to be, it's mind -boggling to hear how he's holding a contradiction.
01:22:13: And he's not ignorant of Roman Catholicism. He's not. He's dealt with it in the past.
01:22:20: He's been in a teaching ministry for years. He's been president of CRI for I don't know how many years, but it's been years, decades.
01:22:29: He's not ignorant of Roman Catholicism. He's not ignorant of the Reformers. He's not ignorant of the doctrines of the
01:22:35: Five Solos of the Protestant Reformation. He's not ignorant of any of these things. And he's actively and willfully leading people astray.
01:22:44: And so if you are not hearing a lot of sympathy or compassion in my voice with regards to Hank Hanegraaff, it's quite frankly because I'm angry with what he's doing.
01:22:58: And yes, I want to be concerned, but I'm concerned for the thousands of people that maybe don't have a pastor or a church to attend, or maybe don't even have a pastor who has a backbone and is going to warn them away from Roman Catholicism.
01:23:19: And I'm concerned for those people. That's my chief concern in all of this, because as it says that those who teach will be held to a stricter judgment.
01:23:29: Yeah, I'm concerned about Hank Hanegraaff's salvation, but when
01:23:35: Paul wrote his letter to the Galatian church, he anathematized the
01:23:41: Judaizers. He anathematized them. He cursed them. He damned them. And his chief concern was to the congregation.
01:23:50: His chief concern was to those who were being led astray. When Paul opposed
01:23:56: Peter to his face, and we're going to read a little bit about that, when Paul opposed Peter to his face, he wasn't just overcome with, you know,
01:24:05: Peter, I'm so concerned about you. His chief concern was those who
01:24:11: Peter was leading astray. Well, and just to clarify, his situation is not the same, because what happened with Peter is that he caved under pressure.
01:24:22: He did not actually believe what the Judaizers taught, and he caved under pressure. Hank Hanegraaff is under no pressure to believe any of these things.
01:24:30: He is doing it willfully, and he is joining the church out of his own will, and he is walking out, for all practical purposes, of the
01:24:40: Christian faith. And so I wanted to touch on a few things there, because what you said about him being a teacher being held under stricter judgment, that's exactly right.
01:24:50: This is exactly why we cannot afford to be charitable or to be nice to Hank Hanegraaff regarding the situation.
01:25:00: Because he has put himself in a position of influence and teaching as a teacher of the church, that does not afford him charity.
01:25:12: We cannot grant him charity, because he is a teacher. And he has decades of ministry behind his back.
01:25:20: And so, what needs to happen, well, you know, something is going to happen, because he cannot stay in this position.
01:25:28: He just cannot. And for what he is doing, he is trying to affirm the Protestant understanding of salvation and of God that he talked about in that letter, or in that post that he made.
01:25:39: And at the same time, he is denying everything that he is claiming to hold to by joining this institution and by validating the church of Rome as a true church.
01:25:50: And here's the other thing. When he was addressing Jeff's question, he said that in the
01:25:57: West, you know, why was there such an issue in the West? There was this issue where they taught infused righteousness, and then he actually didn't really bother.
01:26:05: He didn't actually answer the question about Roman Catholicism. He actually just sort of moved on to the Eastern view, and he kind of answered it indirectly, because he said, well, in the
01:26:13: East, faith and works have never been a problem. This has never been an issue. And it's like, well, you just proved our point.
01:26:21: And that is exactly why the Eastern Church, the Orthodox Church, is also an apostate institution.
01:26:27: Because for you to not recognize the dichotomy between faith and works that the Bible so clearly makes and distinguishes, like Paul's letters in Ephesians and in Romans, where he says that we are saved by faith and not of works, and if you don't make those careful distinctions that the
01:26:43: Reformation brought to light, and that true Christians have always held to, then you are in an institution that is not
01:26:51: Christian. It is Antichrist, and it is apostate for all practical purposes. He is doing a total disservice, and this is what people need to be doing.
01:27:01: I mean, how we should be responding as Christians. Charitability is not going to help him, and it's not going to help the people that are being deceived and misled by the mess of a position that he has placed himself under.
01:27:17: It's not going to help anybody. Yeah, and let me point out that when I called his show,
01:27:23: I asked him about the issue of the doctrine of justification by faith alone, and then I referenced this guy,
01:27:29: Jeff, and I said, you know, yesterday you had a guy on here who, I forgot what I said, but I referenced this call, and I referenced
01:27:36: Roman Catholicism, and that he affirmed it as a true church, and at that point he cut me off, and he said,
01:27:45: I've been saying this for years. Okay, well, so there you go. This isn't anything that just recently came up, but let me ask you this.
01:28:00: So, the other thing is, people might say that we are being divisive, that we are being schismatics, and John Robbins was accused of being a schismatic, and I just want to read his response to a man by the name of Wallace, Dr.
01:28:17: Peter Wallace, who basically accused John Robbins, who was very polemical, and that's why a lot of people don't like the
01:28:25: Trinity Foundation, because the Trinity Foundation has, I think, rightly called out people in the past for believing things that are wrong.
01:28:36: That was one of the reasons that John Robbins was not liked by a lot of people, and Carlos and I have gone to bat for the
01:28:44: Trinity Foundation, because we can see past that and appreciate what Robbins contributed.
01:28:51: But Robbins writes concerning this guy, Reverend Dr. Peter Wallace, and he says,
01:28:57: Because apparently Wallace does not know that a schismatic is someone who causes division by teaching doctrine contrary to scripture.
01:29:05: Quote, Note those who cause division and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.
01:29:11: End quote. Romans 16, 17 It is those who cause divisions and offenses by teaching contrary to biblical doctrine, not those who are offended by the false teaching, who are the schismatics.
01:29:26: Many Presbyterian elders, including Wallace, get the meaning of the word schismatic precisely backwards.
01:29:34: And I would submit that anybody who wants to say that we are being divisive because we are offended by this, is getting the meaning of the word schismatic precisely backwards.
01:29:48: Did you guys have anything else to say? Because what I want to do is I want to read through why heretics win battles.
01:29:56: Really quick, let me go because Carlos is super passionate about this, and I don't know if I'll get a chance if he goes before me.
01:30:03: Go ahead. No, just a couple of things. One, I think we should be as charitable as the
01:30:10: Old Testament says to be with people who lead people astray from God. Yeah, seriously.
01:30:16: So, you know, the scripture is very explicit that even if it's a friend, as if your own flesh, you know, your father, your mother, it doesn't matter who the person is or how they're related to you.
01:30:31: God comes primarily first foremost, and you'd be willing to sever them off from life at that point, at least in the
01:30:38: Old Testament. So I don't think we should be more charitable than God has told us to be.
01:30:46: I don't think it's charity anymore. I think it's sin. And so just to address what
01:30:53: Carlos said earlier, I didn't come from a Roman Catholic background. I ended up spending a lot of time around people who are
01:31:01: Roman Catholic, and so that's one of the ways I've learned more about it. But it's a false gospel.
01:31:09: It leads people astray. And here's the thing. This guy's ministry has been so far -reached to people that it needs to be very clear and very concise and broken down how wrong he is.
01:31:29: Because if we're just going to try to be... I hate the word charitable at this point because I think it's a horrible abuse of the word.
01:31:36: I don't think you're giving anybody charity by letting them lead people astray. And so the charitable thing to do here for all is to make it very clear, make it as known as possible that he's a false teacher.
01:31:52: He's leading people astray. And he's in opposition to Christ. He is a form of antichrist, at least as John uses the word.
01:32:03: And so the problem here is that we want to... With the idea of charity, is that something we apply to brothers in the faith, not somebody that has sacrificed the gospel and was anathematized, accursed.
01:32:20: Nobody who is of God and nobody who's a brother in Christ is accursed.
01:32:29: And so we can't pretend like he's one of us and then say we should give him charity. Because he's not.
01:32:36: We should love him. But in loving him, we should expose him. Exactly.
01:32:42: That was well put. Yeah, definitely. Matt, I'm glad you're here. And I want to capitalize on what you said about the
01:32:49: Old Testament. Because they would stone false prophets to death. And in case there's people out there who think that the
01:32:57: New Testament somehow lightened the standards, the New Testament makes them even worse, even more severe.
01:33:04: Because what we've been alluding to in Galatians 1, 6 -9,
01:33:09: I want to read it real quick. It says, I marvel that you are turning away so soon from him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel, which is not another.
01:33:17: But there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
01:33:28: As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches to you any other gospel to you, then what you have received, let him be accursed.
01:33:35: Now, that word accursed is anathema. That word anathema means that you are definitively and eternally excluded from salvation.
01:33:46: You are eternally, definitively, and finally condemned. There is no hope for you.
01:33:52: And so, the New Testament is even more severe in this respect.
01:33:58: And if you are doing what Hank Hanegraaff is doing, or trying to do, then he needs to be exposed, he needs to be called out, and people need to really and seriously, sharply draw the line, because you cannot be on both sides of the fence on this issue.
01:34:13: It is impossible. And so, I was looking through his church's website, his
01:34:20: Greek Orthodox Church website. It's St. Nektarios Church, Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Atlanta.
01:34:27: I think this is the right one. It's in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I was looking for some kind of qualification or their statement of faith, and I found very little.
01:34:38: This is what I found. It says, become a member of St. Nektarios Parish. For more information, call.
01:34:44: They mail you a packet. And then it says, a member in good standing, as defined in our bylaws, is one who, number one, is 18 years of age or older, number two, was baptized according to the rights of the
01:34:58: Orthodox Church, or was received into the Orthodox Church through chrismation, three, lives according to the faith and the canons of the
01:35:07: Church, and has signed a stewardship pledge card, four, abides by the special regulations and uniform parish regulations of the
01:35:15: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and local parish bylaws. So, I mean, that's very vague, and it's like you have to kind of look at what those documents actually say, but I want to read something else that I found.
01:35:29: I don't know if this is the same denomination or Orthodox type of flavor that they hold to, but this is from the
01:35:40: Orthodox Church in America. It's a mission... wait, let me see. I found...
01:35:45: they had a statement here about chrismation that I wanted to read, because Hank Hanegraaff, and J .D.
01:35:52: Hall points this out about Hank Hanegraaff, that Hank Hanegraaff has been there for... he's been attending that church for over two years, and this chrismation is sort of like the
01:36:04: Roman Catholic equivalent of confirmation. And even though there are some differences that they explain, here the section under chrismation says that the sacrament of chrismation, also called confirmation, is always done in the
01:36:20: Orthodox Church together with baptism. Just as Easter has no meaning for the world without Pentecost, the sacrament has no meaning for the
01:36:27: Christian without chrismation. And this understanding in practice, the Orthodox Church differs from the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches, where the two sacraments are often separated and given other interpretations than those found in traditional
01:36:41: Orthodoxy. But this is the one I wanted to read here. They explain what it is.
01:36:48: So it says, In chrismation a person is given the power from on high, a quote from Acts 1 -2, to receive the
01:36:56: Spirit of God in order to live the new life received in baptism. He is anointed just as Christ the
01:37:02: Messiah is the anointed one of God. He becomes, as the fathers of the Church dare to put it, a quote -unquote
01:37:09: Christ with a small c, together with Jesus. Thus, through chrismation we become a
01:37:16: Christ, in small c quotes, a son of God, a person upon whom the
01:37:21: Holy Spirit dwells, a person in whom the Holy Spirit lives and acts, as long as we want
01:37:27: Him and cooperate with His powerful and holy inspiration. Thus, it is only after our chrismation that the baptismal procession is made and that we hear the epistle and the gospel of our salvation and illumination in Christ.
01:37:45: So this sounds like you're not actually saved until after you're confirmed or chrismated.
01:37:54: That's what it sounds like it's saying. I don't know if this is from the same flavor of orthodoxy, but it's pretty much the same thing.
01:38:03: For the most part, it's the same thing. And this is another thing that we need to point out. It doesn't matter if there's like, you know,
01:38:11: Hank Canagraph is Hank Canagraph, but no orthodox church, as far as I'm aware, as far as we're aware, as far as we're aware, holds to the biblical
01:38:23: Protestant understanding of justification by faith alone. And so, even if they were to say that, well,
01:38:29: Hank is saying that, you know, some church that calls itself orthodox may hold to it or whatever.
01:38:38: The exception is not the norm. The norm is that Eastern Orthodoxy has traditionally denied and attacked and undermined sola fide and sola scriptura.
01:38:52: Right. Yeah. And let me say this. You pointed out that Hank Canagraph has been there for two years.
01:38:58: And so, he has been indoctrinated in this for two years. And the way that we feel about this is that his chrismation...
01:39:08: So, Hank is not starting his transition into this. We believe that his chrismation is the culmination of this whole process.
01:39:20: Because with this confirmation comes the process of catechizing, comes the process of being indoctrinated into this.
01:39:29: So, yeah, we just heard about this a couple of weeks ago. But it's not as if this just started a couple of weeks ago.
01:39:36: So, let's go ahead and read this article because we are going long on this episode and I'm not going to break this episode up into two parts.
01:39:44: And the reason why is because I don't want people getting fired up during the week and, you know...
01:39:52: Yeah, I think this episode needs to just all be one. All right, well, let's go ahead and read this article. I've put this up a number of times.
01:39:59: I've referenced it and I thought this is such a good article. Why don't we go ahead and read a portion of it.
01:40:06: It's titled, Why Heretics Win Battles. And it's written by the late
01:40:12: Dr. John Robbins who was the founder of the Trinity Foundation. So, Why Heretics Win Battles.
01:40:20: There are several reasons that heretics win battles. First, scripture tells us that they are more clever and cunning than believers.
01:40:27: Quote, for the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light. End quote.
01:40:33: Luke 16, 8. They have a way of thinking that makes them more politically astute, more street smart, more imaginative in their machinations, and more willing to act in sinful ways in order to achieve their goals.
01:40:46: Stealing, lying, and bribery are fine so long as they advance the kingdom. Second, heretics introduce false ideas stealthily.
01:40:56: Quote, but this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in. This would have been by stealth.
01:41:01: Despite our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus that they might bring us into bondage. End quote.
01:41:07: Galatians 2, verse 4. End quote, for certain men have crept in unnoticed who long ago were marked out for this condemnation.
01:41:15: End quote. That's Jude 4. They appear to be sheep but are not, and the ideas they teach at least at first appear to be true but are not.
01:41:24: By smooth words they deceive many into thinking that they are Christian brothers and the ideas they advance are biblical.
01:41:32: Third, heretics frequently use force to persecute Christians. Force works. It silences the opposition.
01:41:39: That is why heretics and tyrants use it. The blood of the martyrs is not the seat of the church, only the gospel is.
01:41:45: Fourth, and most important, those who believe the truth tend to be slow to recognize error and even slower to take action necessary to defend the truth.
01:41:54: They lack both discernment and courage. This is the crucial matter. Christians cannot help the fact that the sons of this world are more shrewd than they are and that false brethren do things subtly, surreptitiously, and corrosively.
01:42:09: Christians can help how they understand and respond to such doctrinal and ecclesiastical subversion.
01:42:15: Their lack of discernment stems from a lack of knowledge of Scripture and their lack of courage comes from a lack of belief in the promise of Scripture.
01:42:23: Paul is our model. We can learn a great deal from the example of the Apostle Paul in Antioch and his letter to the
01:42:29: Galatians, for he was neither slow to recognize error nor timid in correcting it. Our failure to learn from and imitate
01:42:36: Paul is the principal reason why heretics win battles. Paul recognized doctrinal error quickly and acted swiftly to correct it.
01:42:43: He wrote, but this, which is a problem over the preaching of the gospel, occurred because of false brethren to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
01:42:56: Galatians 2, 2 -5 Paul did not put up with yield submission to error or those teaching error on the gospel, even for an hour.
01:43:08: He was quick to recognize error and quick to correct it, so that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
01:43:14: While his concern was doctrinal, it was not academic, for he did not tolerate those who were teaching error in the church.
01:43:21: He understood error, and he refused to tolerate the men who were teaching or abating error in the churches.
01:43:28: Paul explained further that those who seemed to be something, whatever they were, it makes no difference to me.
01:43:38: God shows no personal favoritism to man, for those who seem to be something add nothing to me.
01:43:44: Galatians 2, 6 Paul was not impressed by a person's status in the church. God is no respecter of persons, and neither was
01:43:51: Paul. Church status, church office, educational credentials afford no immunity.
01:43:57: In fact, the biblical rule is just the opposite. That is why
01:44:06: Paul told Timothy, quote, those, meaning the elders, whom our sinning rebuke them in the presence of all, end quote.
01:44:13: 1 Timothy 5, 20 So far we have learned three things about how we must oppose those who obscure and pervert the gospel.
01:44:22: One, we must recognize doctrinal error as a serious sin. Two, we must not tolerate either error on the doctrine of salvation or those who teach it even for an hour.
01:44:33: We must not allow ourselves to be intimidated or cowed by the reputations or credentials of those who teach error on the doctrine of salvation.
01:44:42: But Paul has much more to teach about correcting doctrinal error in the churches. He continues, quote, but when
01:44:48: Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, end quote. Galatians 2, 11 This is
01:44:53: Paul's fourth lesson. Not only must those who teach a false gospel be anathematized, but brothers who tolerate those who preach a false gospel.
01:45:08: In Galatians 1, Paul had cursed those who preach a false gospel. In chapter 2, he instructs us on how to deal with brothers who tolerate those who teach a false gospel, thus obscuring or compromising the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
01:45:22: Peter had not preached a false gospel, but his actions abated those who did. Paul explains, quote, and the rest of the
01:45:40: Jews also played the hypocrite with him so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy, end quote.
01:45:47: By describing Peter's and Barnabas' actions as hypocrisy, Paul indicates that Peter and Barnabas believed the gospel, but nevertheless they tolerated those who did not.
01:45:58: Tolerance of error on the doctrine of salvation is a sin. It is doubly sin for elders who are charged with the responsibility of teaching, of feeding the sheep, and of guarding the flock.
01:46:10: Moreover, Paul opposed Peter to his face directly and openly. Paul was
01:46:16: Peter's friend and fellow apostle. Paul went to the root of the problem and confronted Peter directly. Paul had no misplaced personal loyalty to Peter.
01:46:24: He did not let a false notion of friendship interfere with his responsibility to correct Peter and defend the gospel.
01:46:31: Paul did not take aside Peter privately and suggest politely that he eat with the
01:46:36: Gentiles. Paul opposed Peter directly to his face. Opposing error and those who tolerate it is something many
01:46:43: Christians are loathe to do. They would rather whine, can't we all just get along?
01:46:49: To those who allow an unbiblical view of friendship to cloud their judgments have forgotten
01:46:55: Paul's question. Have I then become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4 .16
01:47:01: Further, in Paul's manner of confronting Peter, we see the important principle that truth, the biblical doctrines, are to be defended openly, directly, and clearly.
01:47:12: To try to defend the truth by stealth, by cleverness, by political means, is to undercut the very thing we are defending.
01:47:20: Falsehood can be, and usually is, propagated by dishonest, uncandid, and irrational means, but truth cannot be.
01:47:28: Truth must be proclaimed openly, honestly, rationally, and candidly. Paul said that he opposed
01:47:34: Peter because he was to be blamed. This is Paul's fifth lesson for us.
01:47:41: Paul assigned blame and he assigned it correctly. Paul identified the apostle Peter as blameworthy.
01:47:50: This does not shield him from being blamed, nor from Paul's open opposition. Paul judged
01:47:56: Peter accurately, openly, and clearly. Paul did not misunderstand Christ's words. Judge not that you be not judged, as so many professing
01:48:04: Christians do. Paul judged Peter accurately and swiftly, and he acted on his judgment. His judgment, of course, was not about a trivial matter, but about the gospel and Peter's role in obscuring it.
01:48:20: Revelation 1, which compelled him to curse those who teach any other message in the churches, compelled him to judge and blame
01:48:26: Peter for not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in chapter 2. But Paul is not done teaching us how to handle churchmen who undermine the gospel.
01:48:35: He wrote, But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel,
01:48:51: I said, They are not to be taken aside privately. They are not to be dealt with according to Matthew 18.
01:48:58: For Paul understood, as many churchmen do not understand today, that procedure is irrelevant to situations in which the gospel is being publicly twisted and obscured.
01:49:09: Teachers who err on the doctrine of salvation are not to be ignored, nor are they to be
01:49:22: I said to Peter before them all, By making an example of Peter, by writing his name in scripture for all time, by addressing the apostle and not some elder, deacon, or ordinary layman.
01:49:38: Paul made it perfectly clear that even the highest officers in the church are subject to the gospel.
01:49:45: A fortiori, so are all the rest. By addressing Peter, Paul acted on the principle that the greater the office, the greater the responsibility.
01:49:54: Were Paul to rebuke Peter today, he would, of course, be accused of making a, quote, personal attack on Peter.
01:50:01: A pastor in good standing in the church and Paul would have been censored by some seminary faculty or church court for using intemperate language as well.
01:50:13: Such critics are not accustomed to rigorous thinking cannot differentiate between personal attack and and rebuking a specific person for obscuring the gospel.
01:50:24: Paul's concern was wholly doctrinal. He had no personal animus against Peter. His doctrinal concern his position as a
01:50:32: Christian and as and an apostle required him to confront Peter publicly.
01:50:38: Where is Paul when we need him? And so that's that's all I'm going to read. What did you guys what did you guys get from that?
01:50:50: Well, I mean, that's largely been my position in regards to dealing with false teaching in the first place is that it just needs to be spoken about plainly.
01:50:58: And it needs to not be treated any other way.
01:51:04: It's not about courtesy. It's about truth. And so, like, it's interesting because even with dead people who can't make more mistakes than they already did, if they have enough backing, if enough people like them or have good feelings or memories about them, it's really hard to talk to people about them without them trying to be like, well, let me find out more.
01:51:25: I don't know enough. And then they never look it up. Right. So like C .S. Lewis is a phenomenal example of that. I've had to back into that conversation over a dozen times where where I start the conversation off with, hey, you know, if somebody denied, you know, substitutionary atonement and was, you know, an inclusive is more or less a universalist.
01:51:43: Do you think that person is a Christian? And then, no, no, no, no, it's not. OK, well, that person C .S. Lewis. And then it's like, oh, crap.
01:51:49: They realize that somebody they've they've trusted. You know, and you can't just it.
01:51:55: You're absolutely right. If you do what the Bible says in regards to approaching error, you're going to be accused of not being
01:52:02: Christlike. And Paul, I've actually almost said verbatim what he said to somebody else, or I'm sorry, what he said in that in that in that piece he wrote.
01:52:11: I almost said that verbatim to somebody else in regards to if we treated things that way.
01:52:17: Paul, if Paul was in our church, then he would have, you know, he would have been told he needed to take him to a side. You know, what he did wasn't right.
01:52:25: That's our culture. Our culture is a is a, you know, I think Vodipaka put it well. We're we have an emasculated culture where you can't be a man, a man of God.
01:52:36: All of the just about all the prophets, Jesus Christ himself, if he were to act the way he acted then, now he would be accused of not being
01:52:44: Christlike. And that's where we're at. And we have to ignore that and do what's right and true and and receive a prophet's reward.
01:52:51: And in that way, they were accused and and spoken falsely on the on the account of the message they had to deliver.
01:52:58: Yeah, I'm going to read Galatians 2 real quick. The issue with Paul confronting
01:53:04: Peter says, Now, when Peter came to come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face because he was to be blamed for before certain men came from James.
01:53:13: He would eat with the Gentiles. But when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
01:53:19: And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
01:53:26: Take note of that. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel,
01:53:31: I said to Peter before them all, If you being a Jew live in the manner of Gentiles and not as a Jews, why do you compel
01:53:38: Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
01:53:47: Even if we have believed in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law.
01:53:54: For by the works of the law, no flesh shall be justified. So one thing to keep in mind is that Peter was a hypocrite in the sense that he believed the truth of the gospel, but he had a behavioral inconsistency by eating with the
01:54:10: Jews, the Judaizers. And was therefore denying the gospel because as a
01:54:20: Christian you are not bound to those food laws and especially not for salvation.
01:54:27: And so there he also said, he notes that the rest of the
01:54:32: Jews played the hypocrite with him. So the rest of the believing Jews played the hypocrite and even
01:54:37: Barnabas was carried away. This is why this is so dangerous, because people can get very easily sucked into it, especially if they're not strong in the faith or if they're not discerning, or if their convictions are still not that well developed through the
01:54:55: Bible and going to church and all that different stuff. And so this is exactly why it is important to confront
01:55:03: Hank Hanegraaff with this error and expose him for what he's doing. For practically speaking, for practical purposes, he needs to be regarded as an apostate because he's trying to affirm the
01:55:19: Orthodox Church as a Christian church. And their doctrine is not
01:55:25: Christian and it does not save you because they hold to works righteousness ultimately. And now keep in mind as well,
01:55:33: Peter was compelled. He was sort of put in a difficult position and he wavered.
01:55:39: He sort of caved into the pressure. Hank Hanegraaff is not doing any of that stuff.
01:55:45: So there's a sense in which he's in an even worse position than Peter was because he is doing this willingly.
01:55:54: And so I really fear for him and I really do fear for him. He needs to stop what he's doing.
01:56:02: He needs to either get on one side of the fence and stay on there because he cannot be at both at the same time like this.
01:56:09: And that's exactly the problem with what Joseph pointed out about C .S.
01:56:14: Lewis and mere Christianity. That is where it will lead you to. It will ultimately lead you to not regarding essentials such as justification by faith and therefore including
01:56:28: Rome and the Orthodox Church as Christian churches. Yeah, and have you guys noticed how whenever people are talking about Hank Hanegraaff, they sort of want to talk about who he is and what he's done.
01:56:42: You know, sort of, you know, he's been in ministry for this many years and really,
01:56:50: I'm just going to submit this. That's, in light of this, I mean, status, credentials, none of that matters.
01:57:03: Paul said that. He said, if an angel comes to you or me, myself, or apostle, whatever, it doesn't matter who it is.
01:57:11: With another gospel with him he had cursed. So Paul, who had something of the highest credentials, said that doesn't matter.
01:57:21: Well, and I want to just conclude with this. I think we've pretty much said what we needed to say.
01:57:29: Going back to the anathema of Galatians 1, where Paul is anathematizing anybody who preaches a gospel that is contrary to the one that was revealed initially to Paul.
01:57:45: So notice there that he also says, let him be anathema, let him be accursed.
01:57:50: Some translations render it as, let him be condemned to hell. And that is why it is such a serious condemnation, because it is an eternal condemnation.
01:58:01: And the point of that is that it's used in the passive, it's in the passive voice, let him be condemned.
01:58:08: And why is that? Because the curse or the condemnation is not coming from Paul himself.
01:58:14: It's coming from God. Because God is the one who is going to condemn them in hell. God is the one who is going to issue that curse.
01:58:23: That is what a curse is. A biblical curse is that you are going to be excluded from salvation and condemned to an eternal damnation and hellfire and an outpouring of God's wrath.
01:58:37: And so that is a very serious, that is the most frightening verse, arguably, in all
01:58:46: Scripture. Because the other thing to consider is that this is talking about a specific type of person.
01:58:52: This is somebody who is claiming to name the name of Christ, to be somebody in the church, knowingly, and knowing the truth, and yet perverting it as to preach a different gospel as if there was another, but there really isn't another, as Paul says.
01:59:13: And so this is talking about people who are putting themselves as teachers or as somebody who has influence in the church as a
01:59:24: Christian, and saying something, teaching a gospel that is contrary to the one that is in the
01:59:30: Bible. Right, yeah. So let's conclude with this. We're disappointed that James White criticized
01:59:40: J .D. Hall on this matter. Well, all of that to say that here at Semper Ephraim on the radio that we are perplexed that J .D.
01:59:55: Hall and Jeff Maples have taken heat for this from Christian brothers who have criticized them.
02:00:05: And we really didn't get into a whole bunch of the stuff with James White and J .D.
02:00:14: Hall because we don't think that it's beneficial for us to speak on that. But we wholeheartedly stand behind pulpit and pen on this issue, and we say if you've got nukes, use them.
02:00:35: Go nuclear on this because we should not yield submission to Greek Orthodoxy even for an hour.
02:00:44: We should not yield submission to Roman Catholicism even for an hour. And whatever credentials you think that Hank Hanegraaff has, it doesn't matter because as Paul said, it adds nothing.
02:01:00: So with that, we're going to go ahead and close out this episode. I know that it's super long. We do have an email address, semper .refermanda
02:01:08: .radio at gmail .com. You can go ahead and email us any thoughts that you might have about this episode.
02:01:16: And with that, we'll check you next week. God bless. ...or have us design a brand new tract just for you.
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